View Poll Results: Do you care if your bike/frame is USA made?

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151. This poll is closed
  • Yes, absolutely!

    53 35.10%
  • Only if it doesn't cost more than 25% of a foreign made bike/frame.

    22 14.57%
  • It doesn't really matter to me.

    44 29.14%
  • Why buy American when I can buy foreign for almost 25% less?

    7 4.64%
  • Hell no!

    25 16.56%
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  1. #1
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    Do you care if your bike/frame is USA made?

    Just a generic poll... Do you care if your bike/frame is USA made?

  2. #2
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    Hi, new guy. I finally joined this forum, but wanted to say that I prefer to support US made products as long as the price isn't ridiculous in comparison

  3. #3
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    Bicycles are a global product, you can't put together a full US made bicycle and US made frames are all small companies so their boutique companies now. The fact is, most US companies are not capable of making a US production frame to the same quality level as a Taiwan frame for a competitive price. I saw this first hand when I was a warranty manager that dealt with Specialized, Trek (and all Trek made bikes), and Cannondale. Trek came the closest but honestly I saw more alignment and weld issues on US made Trek aluminum frames than with Taiwan made Specialized frames. Cannondale couldn't sell at a competitive price and they didn't get the name Crack-n-fail back then without reason.

  4. #4
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    Are any frames, other than very expensive models, made in the US?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    Bicycles are a global product, you can't put together a full US made bicycle and US made frames are all small companies so their boutique companies now. The fact is, most US companies are not capable of making a US production frame to the same quality level as a Taiwan frame for a competitive price. I saw this first hand when I was a warranty manager that dealt with Specialized, Trek (and all Trek made bikes), and Cannondale. Trek came the closest but honestly I saw more alignment and weld issues on US made Trek aluminum frames than with Taiwan made Specialized frames. Cannondale couldn't sell at a competitive price and they didn't get the name Crack-n-fail back then without reason.
    Personally, I believe it is hard for anyone to mess up welds no matter where they are from if they have been doing it long enough. I SERIOUSLY doubt your statements are unbiased but that is not the purpose of the poll. In retro spec a person could ask whether or not you would rather pay $2000 for a frame that cost $100 to make in a communist country with very poor work safety standards and supressed living conditions or in a democratic society by someone who could be your neighbor that costs $800 to build? OR you could ask would you rather pay $1900 for the brand name or $1200? It seems like a lot of people in the industry want to defend only paying workers $1.50/hr to build their product. Not looking for any "No, you cant's". If enough people ask for USA made it will happen... but again, this is just a basic poll.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlouder
    Are any frames, other than very expensive models, made in the US?
    Ventana frames seem reasonible...

  7. #7
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    I try very hard to buy as much as I can from american producers in my life. Simply because a service only economy isn't going to sustain this country.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    Personally, I believe it is hard for anyone to mess up welds no matter where they are from if they have been doing it long enough. I SERIOUSLY doubt your statements are unbiased but that is not the purpose of the poll. In retro spec a person could ask whether or not you would rather pay $2000 for a frame that cost $100 to make in a communist country with very poor work safety standards and supressed living conditions or in a democratic society by someone who could be your neighbor that costs $800 to build? OR you could ask would you rather pay $1900 for the brand name or $1200? It seems like a lot of people in the industry want to defend only paying workers $1.50/hr to build their product. Not looking for any "No, you cant's". If enough people ask for USA made it will happen... but again, this is just a basic poll.
    Taiwan is not a communist country, it's actually a democratic nation and their welders are quite well paid in proportion to their living costs.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    Taiwan is not a communist country, it's actually a democratic nation and their welders are quite well paid in proportion to their living costs.
    China is and Taiwan is in bed with them. I know I make a good living in proportion to a kid who works at Taco Bell but that isn't the point... At least the Taco Bell worker can afford a car. I just want to know a percentage of those who are willing to pay extra to have a product made in the USA. Companies keep telling us that the American buyer isn't willing to pay for USA made products as they swiftly sell us foreign made goods at unbelievable profits.

  10. #10
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    I must love China since all my bikes and parts seem to come from there.

    To be honest as a expat in Asia the pay sucks here the inflation is killing us and you cant expect your incitement to match that or you will get frowned upon. Trust me the situation is far from rosey. The cost of living is rising in these parts too and it wont be long before these bikes will cost the same to manufacture; add shipping etc and it might end up costing far more.

    If I were American I would buy American and I would expect to pay the same price for it. If large companies were willing to invest they can achieve near same results; I can see how this would be a problem for smaller organizations where handmade/custom frames are involved (o wait they are local already).

    As far as QC go's the products are good and they are easy to come buy. The problem is principal and it comes at a price affecting both Americans as well as the locals because they will not reap the benefits.

    China/Asian Workers - Work hard with very little compensation come compared to the western world
    Americans - loss of income

    The same can be said for many industries and many countries. The outsourcing industry is nasty and the only people who benefits in the long run are the stake holders.

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  11. #11
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    If you want to buy American-made, not just American-designed, you almost have to make it your primary criteria. Just about every bike that fit my interests in the 90's was American manufactured, but these days, none of them do.

    Between health care, housing (still expensive relative to wages despite the bust), tuition and so on, the cost of living here poses a real problem. We're likely to see the day soon where an upcoming generation of Americans will have to seriously look for their jobs globally, because the lack of work and high cost of living here will force the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    China is and Taiwan is in bed with them.
    Not paying much attention to world news, are we? Just give mtnbiker72 the point and move on.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel242
    Not paying much attention to world news, are we? Just give mtnbiker72 the point and move on.
    Sorry, not trying to come across as supercilious. mtnbiker is right but looking at my Specialized bike it has a sticker on it saying "Handmade in China" and not Taiwan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Punkeyboozter
    I must love China since all my bikes and parts seem to come from there.

    To be honest as a expat in Asia the pay sucks here the inflation is killing us and you cant expect your incitement to match that or you will get frowned upon. Trust me the situation is far from rosey. The cost of living is rising in these parts too and it wont be long before these bikes will cost the same to manufacture; add shipping etc and it might end up costing far more.

    If I were American I would buy American and I would expect to pay the same price for it. If large companies were willing to invest they can achieve near same results; I can see how this would be a problem for smaller organizations where handmade/custom frames are involved (o wait they are local already).

    As far as QC go's the products are good and they are easy to come buy. The problem is principal and it comes at a price affecting both Americans as well as the locals because they will not reap the benefits.

    China/Asian Workers - Work hard with very little compensation come compared to the western world
    Americans - loss of income

    The same can be said for many industries and many countries. The outsourcing industry is nasty and the only people who benefits in the long run are the stake holders.

    STOP FEEDING THE MAN
    You couldn't have said it any better. The problem that I have is that the bike industry is small enough that if they wanted to have a positive impact they could. I do not know of any bike company that is traded on the stock market. The stakeholders are few and call all of the shots so why are they selling everyone out? They are lacking corporate social responsibility. The bike companies that still produce here (in the USA) get it and understand that it isnt one major company that makes a difference but all of the smaller ones as well.
    Last edited by FireLikeIYA; 05-03-2011 at 06:30 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    The problem that I have is that the bike industry is small enough that if they wanted to have a positive impact they could. I do not know of any bike company that is traded on the stock market. The stakeholders are few and call all of the shots so why are they selling everyone out? They are lacking corporate social responsibility. The bike companies that still produce here (in the USA) get it and understand that it isnt one major company that makes a difference but all of the smaller ones as well.
    The market does not work in collusion. The whole idea of it is a small world is great and all, but if I'm Trek or Rocky, and my competition can undercut me by moving production to X. Then I have to have a different advantage to offset my lower grade components or higher price. Otherwise I get killed in the marketplace.

    Look at Cannondale. They were one of last, bigger, holdouts. They succumbed too. If the choice, as they see it, is overseas or 6 feet under. Then it isn't a choice. Will this always be accurate? That is a question still in flux.

    There are few bikes made in the US right now (or Canada, or Europe) that are mass produced. Still a decent number of small production stuff. Intense, Ventana, Moots, Turner, Strong, etc, etc. They tend to be smaller and more expensive than the Specialized and Giants of the world.

    The companies are all in business to make money (typically by making bike stuff), but if they don't do that, then the rest won't follow. Can they find a way to make money in their home country (Canada for Rocky, Knolly, USA for others) - that's the $64K question.

    Can they do it so their investors/bean counters think it's a better idea than overseas. That's even bigger than the $64K question.

    And add in that GT/'Goose/Salsa/Surly/Fisher are all part of a bigger whole. So their answers have to come from up the line, and not necessarily from the head of just their bike co.

    The one thing it isn't anymore is a question of quality. You can get great, and crappy, bikes from any of the countries above. The US, China, and Taiwan are all capable of making great bikes. Boils down to design and QC now. It happens all the time at price points across the spectrum too. The $750 bike I bought in college is light years behind what I would get today for the same amount, much less what it'd be adjusted for inflation.
    Last edited by JmZ; 05-04-2011 at 06:25 AM.
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  14. #14
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    What's the difference between "Hell no", and "It doesn't really matter to me"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer
    What's the difference between "Hell no", and "It doesn't really matter to me"?

    it doesn't really matter to me = it doesn't really matter to me
    Hell no = I absolutely do not want a USA made bike/frame

    Sorry, I could have made it clearer... The poll was a result of late night blogging.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    China is and Taiwan is in bed with them. I know I make a good living in proportion to a kid who works at Taco Bell but that isn't the point... At least the Taco Bell worker can afford a car. I just want to know a percentage of those who are willing to pay extra to have a product made in the USA. Companies keep telling us that the American buyer isn't willing to pay for USA made products as they swiftly sell us foreign made goods at unbelievable profits.
    Maybe you should do your homework a little more...Taiwan is not in bed with China and welders in Taiwan make family wages.

  17. #17
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    Hey guys

    Just to give my opinion, I wouldn't pay any extra for US made. I am a Brit and therefore put no value in American made products. I don't think they are bad but no better than Taiwanese or Chinese made products. So I think for a company like santa cruz to charge more for American made products that is only of value of to a few people that live in America is crazy. If you think about how many of their customers are American and care and the number of Americans and non-Americans, would consider their products if they were 10% cheaper.

    Now I should say that if we were talking about British products, would my opinion be different? I hope not but I do love Hope. Remember just my opinion, don't take it too seriously.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMajor
    Hey guys

    Just to give my opinion, I wouldn't pay any extra for US made. I am a Brit and therefore put no value in American made products. I don't think they are bad but no better than Taiwanese or Chinese made products. So I think for a company like santa cruz to charge more for American made products that is only of value of to a few people that live in America is crazy. If you think about how many of their customers are American and care and the number of Americans and non-Americans, would consider their products if they were 10% cheaper.

    Now I should say that if we were talking about British products, would my opinion be different? I hope not but I do love Hope. Remember just my opinion, don't take it too seriously.
    Your reason is valid and basically echo's what the guys are saying. I suspect when he say American he really means a bike made in his country. It is better to support your own people first before looking else where.
    I love Hope products too
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    After teaching Economics for the last fifteen years, I have come to believe that the only way for the U.S. to keep itself employed is to start manufacturing more of its own items. We must also play hardball with the rest of the world to make our prices competitive. We can no longer prop up the world economy. I know there is a stigma that comes with factory jobs in the U.S. that needs to go away, but maybe a couple more years of suffering through a tough economy will finally make people realize that we can't have such a high number of high paying service industry jobs. I will continue to go out of my way to buy American if that's what it takes.

  20. #20
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    After watching that one local television undercover investigation, where they took hidden cameras to a Chrysler manufacturing plant, and many workers were drinking and smoking pot on the job, I must say I truly feel safer buying a Taiwanese made bike. Here's the link I'm referring to.

    I bet this kind of stuff goes on all the time in American manufacturing. Whereas Asians (beside some egregious Chinese safety examples) seem more dedicated to their work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer
    After watching that one local television undercover investigation, where they took hidden cameras to a Chrysler manufacturing plant, and many workers were drinking and smoking pot on the job, I must say I truly feel safer buying a Taiwanese made bike. Here's the link I'm referring to.

    I bet this kind of stuff goes on all the time in American manufacturing. Whereas Asians (beside some egregious Chinese safety examples) seem more dedicated to their work.
    It does go on all the time. But, when the guy in the U.S. plant loses his job to the Asian and the American ends up stealing your bike you will wish you had bought more American products. Doesn't anybody see the bigger picture of keeping manufacturing jobs in America? You can only over inflate the economy so long with smoke and mirrors before you have to actually make something that you can put a finger on.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer
    After watching that one local television undercover investigation, where they took hidden cameras to a Chrysler manufacturing plant, and many workers were drinking and smoking pot on the job, I must say I truly feel safer buying a Taiwanese made bike. Here's the link I'm referring to.

    I bet this kind of stuff goes on all the time in American manufacturing. Whereas Asians (beside some egregious Chinese safety examples) seem more dedicated to their work.
    Wow, you are selling out your fellow country man over one investigation made for prime time television...N-I-C-E! So you are assuming that stuff made in Taiwan is superior because of this? Although I am not an expert I have been to a few different countries in my life and my better half is from Asia and from my experiences this is not the case. Overseas workers do not have a higher education and are no harder working than the rest of us (In many cases it has seemed to be the exact opposite). It all comes down to US businesses taking advantage of a suppressed economy. It makes sense but in the end they are selling our country out.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTTURNER
    You can only over inflate the economy so long with smoke and mirrors before you have to actually make something that you can put a finger on.
    As long as we keep drilling it into people heads that they're total failures if they do anything but fondle a mouse for a living the problem will only get worse.



    I do try to buy USA made products, but for my bike I want the bike I like the best, not the one I like the best that happens to be made in the USA, if the one I like best is made in the USA and is in my price range, great!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    Wow, you are selling out your fellow country man over one investigation made for prime time television...N-I-C-E! So you are assuming that stuff made in Taiwan is superior because of this? Although I am not an expert I have been to a few different countries in my life and my better half is from Asia and from my experiences this is not the case. Overseas workers do not have a higher education and are no harder working than the rest of us (In many cases it has seemed to be the exact opposite). It all comes down to US businesses taking advantage of a suppressed economy. It makes sense but in the end they are selling our country out.
    Yes, I'm a firm believer in the Work Ethic.

    Lazy, hillbilly rednecks producing things in the states does nothing for me. I understand in one of the auto manufacturing plants down south, some of the instructions are in picture/diagram form, as some assembly line employees cannot read.

    I mainly blame our educational system.

  25. #25
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    Lets not build a false equivalence over Chrysler vs Japanese auto companies. After all, you can easily turn that around and compare Asian aerospace companies against their American counterparts and have just as good of a laugh in the opposite direction.

    Anyway, back on topic. While I admire the principle, I don't believe in going out of my way to buy an American made bike. The legal and political environment we're in would mean I'm just p***ing my money against the wind and settling for something that I don't believe is the best. We can start to fix things by doing a better job leveling the import/export playing field.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTTURNER
    After teaching Economics for the last fifteen years, I have come to believe that the only way for the U.S. to keep itself employed is to start manufacturing more of its own items. We must also play hardball with the rest of the world to make our prices competitive. We can no longer prop up the world economy. I know there is a stigma that comes with factory jobs in the U.S. that needs to go away, but maybe a couple more years of suffering through a tough economy will finally make people realize that we can't have such a high number of high paying service industry jobs. I will continue to go out of my way to buy American if that's what it takes.
    I worry about my personal economics and desires first, to do otherwise is uneconomical, thankyouverymuch. Ever notice that there's a large group of people wanting manufacturing to return the US, but they're not very willing to do the low paying, hard work themselves?

    I went from a USA-Handbuilt Titus to a Taiwan Pivot...because that's what I wanted. I wish Pivot built their bikes in the USA and would've probably paid a couple hundred more for that premium. But they're not, so I didn't. Most importantly, I got the bike I wanted.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel242
    We can start to fix things by doing a better job leveling the import/export playing field.
    +1
    That is the hardball I was talking about. It's time for the US to stop being such a pushover.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTTURNER
    After teaching Economics for the last fifteen years, I have come to believe that the only way for the U.S. to keep itself employed is to start manufacturing more of its own items. We must also play hardball with the rest of the world to make our prices competitive. We can no longer prop up the world economy. I know there is a stigma that comes with factory jobs in the U.S. that needs to go away, but maybe a couple more years of suffering through a tough economy will finally make people realize that we can't have such a high number of high paying service industry jobs. I will continue to go out of my way to buy American if that's what it takes..
    I agree with this.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer
    Yes, I'm a firm believer in the Work Ethic.

    Lazy, hillbilly rednecks producing things in the states does nothing for me. I understand in one of the auto manufacturing plants down south, some of the instructions are in picture/diagram form, as some assembly line employees cannot read.

    I mainly blame our educational system.
    I worked for Michelin in the deep south USA.
    I'm no fan of hillbilly rednecks either, but the people down there were good people, and can't be stereotyped any more than people from anywhere else.
    You know what we made? the best F*cking tires in the world.
    Last edited by smilinsteve; 05-09-2011 at 03:30 PM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer
    After watching that one local television undercover investigation, where they took hidden cameras to a Chrysler manufacturing plant, and many workers were drinking and smoking pot on the job, I must say I truly feel safer buying a Taiwanese made bike. Here's the link I'm referring to.

    I bet this kind of stuff goes on all the time in American manufacturing. Whereas Asians (beside some egregious Chinese safety examples) seem more dedicated to their work.

    Yes, I prefer that workers who make my goods are enslaved, so that they don't ever have opportunity to go drink at lunch.

    Seriously, that is an interesting article, but not much detail, and I don't think you can draw any conclusions from it.
    Corporate safety rules are very strict in most cases, and American safety and quality records are excellent. Law suits, fierce competition, and the law, which will hold employers personally accountable for gross neglegence, are excellent motivators to keep manufacturing environments in the US clean, safe, and on par in quality with any in the world.
    Sure, some guys will risk their livelyhoods just to go catch a buzz at lunch, but don't lump all American workers into that group. And what makes you think that Tiawanese workers aren't puffing on the ganga or opium or who knows what on their lunch hours. You think it only happens in the US?

    On a side note, when I worked for Michelin in the 90's, as I mentioned above, the French factorys allowed up to 1 liter of wine per day for their workers! Hard to believe, but its true. Don't know if things have changed since then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NellulksemDemnFunc
    gry hazardowe darmowe hazard w internecie prawo hazard kasyno polonia kasyno polonia ruletka strategie gra bingo gry hazardowe za darmo gry hazardowe zagraj ruletka bez depozytu gra bingo online ograć kasyno najlepsze kasyno internetowe betclick kasyno kasyno na imprezy gry kasyna gry hazardowe maszyny za darmo bonusy poker prawdopodobieństwo poker darmowe kasyna
    I don't agree at all. What have you been smokin'?
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    I saw more alignment and weld issues on US made Trek aluminum frames than with Taiwan made Specialized frames. Cannondale couldn't sell at a competitive price and they didn't get the name Crack-n-fail back then without reason.
    I guarantee this is all because of a lack of capital investment in good tooling, not because of where it's made.
    whatever...

  33. #33
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    How about, yes I care, but realize that it's almost impossible to get what I want if I have to buy American made.

  34. #34
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NellulksemDemnFunc
    gry hazardowe darmowe hazard w internecie prawo hazard kasyno polonia kasyno polonia ruletka strategie gra bingo gry hazardowe za darmo gry hazardowe zagraj ruletka bez depozytu gra bingo online ograć kasyno najlepsze kasyno internetowe betclick kasyno kasyno na imprezy gry kasyna gry hazardowe maszyny za darmo bonusy poker prawdopodobieństwo poker darmowe kasyna


    Quote Originally Posted by malibu412
    I don't agree at all. What have you been smokin'?
    Haha!

    I actually do agree with the part about bonusy poker!
    Last edited by smilinsteve; 05-11-2011 at 09:14 AM.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve
    I worked for Michelin in the deep south USA.
    I'm no fan of hillbilly rednecks either, but the people down there were good people, and can't be stereotyped any more than people from anywhere else.
    You know what we made? the best F*cking tires in the world.
    Wow, that's a coincidence. My oldest brother is a manager at the Michelin plant in Ardmore, OK. He has great things to say about the workforce there. They work their butts off 24/7 to produce all kinds of quality tires. I wish my bike tires were made there!

  36. #36
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    I think Michelin makes the best car tires. I would
    never buy anything else. If the ones I use are made
    in the US so much the better.

    Best, John

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve
    I worked for Michelin in the deep south USA.
    I'm no fan of hillbilly rednecks either, but the people down there were good people, and can't be stereotyped any more than people from anywhere else.
    You know what we made? the best F*cking tires in the world.
    Any reason why the Jap Tires are so much more then any thing else on the market?
    From what I can see from Kumo etc from Thailand(other asian countries) seems to be pretty good. Example their high performance tires are similary priced to the JAP entry tires if not less in many cases. The QC and compounds seems to work pretty good.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punkeyboozter
    Any reason why the Jap Tires are so much more then any thing else on the market?
    From what I can see from Kumo etc from Thailand(other asian countries) seems to be pretty good. Example their high performance tires are similary priced to the JAP entry tires if not less in many cases. The QC and compounds seems to work pretty good.
    Jap=Japanese?
    You mean like Bridgestone?
    From what I have seen, Michelin's still dominate the high end of the pricing. Michelin can command a premium because their quality is proven, although other manufacturers are getting pretty good at it too.
    Besides perceived quality, building quality costs money. it takes more time, and causes more scrap. I saw Michelin throw away a lot of tires other companies would have sold.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punkeyboozter
    Any reason why the Jap Tires are so much more then any thing else on the market?
    From what I can see from Kumo etc from Thailand(other asian countries) seems to be pretty good. Example their high performance tires are similary priced to the JAP entry tires if not less in many cases. The QC and compounds seems to work pretty good.
    The USD exchange rate.

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    i would totally buy a US made bike if i could afford it. i really think we need to stop getting all of our goods from others countrys .besides the fack that ost workers in asia are almost slaves we should be supporting our country 1st. it just sucks that US MADE bikes are so expensive. my custom bmx frame was 470 shipped i dont understand why a US made mtb has to cost upwards of $2000 but if i actually had the $$ i would care bcuz im supporting my country and thats what we should be doing not letting some corpration get rich by paying 2500 for a bike that cost 300 to make. it really akes me sick to think about really.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvda
    i would totally buy a US made bike if i could afford it. i really think we need to stop getting all of our goods from others countrys .besides the fack that ost workers in asia are almost slaves we should be supporting our country 1st. it just sucks that US MADE bikes are so expensive. my custom bmx frame was 470 shipped i dont understand why a US made mtb has to cost upwards of $2000 but if i actually had the $$ i would care bcuz im supporting my country and thats what we should be doing not letting some corpration get rich by paying 2500 for a bike that cost 300 to make. it really akes me sick to think about really.
    Good on you

    But if you personally started manufacturing things here in the States, I'll really be scared. What the bloody 'ell has happened to our educational system??!!


    (sorry if that comes across as rude. I'm in a cranky, rude mood today)

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer
    Yes, I'm a firm believer in the Work Ethic.

    Lazy, hillbilly rednecks producing things in the states does nothing for me. I understand in one of the auto manufacturing plants down south, some of the instructions are in picture/diagram form, as some assembly line employees cannot read.

    I mainly blame our educational system.
    You are talking about management issues. Trust me, companies do not want lazy workers. I think you have been corrupted by Mr. CEO who is trying to justify moving production out of the states to save a few bucks and making up hard to dispute excuses as to why. That's what companies do, they setup shop where the lowest overhead is... and if you think it is bad in the states, not that it is, why would you think it is better somewhere else???

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    You are talking about management issues. Trust me, companies do not want lazy workers. I think you have been corrupted by Mr. CEO who is trying to justify moving production out of the states to save a few bucks and making up hard to dispute excuses as to why. That's what companies do, they setup shop where the lowest overhead is... and if you think it is bad in the states, not that it is, why would you think it is better somewhere else???
    I've seen countless Asian students when I was a student in college. They were all busy as beavers, very studious, constantly studying in the library... no partying, drinking, etc. But they did have fun in their own productive way. Were there successful American students? You bet. But as a whole, I believe Americans are lazy, pampered, and under-educated.

    Now I know this may seem like a bit of a generalization, but I'll take my chances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer
    I've seen countless Asian students when I was a student in college. They were all busy as beavers, very studious, constantly studying in the library... no partying, drinking, etc. But they did have fun in their own productive way. Were there successful American students? You bet. But as a whole, I believe Americans are lazy, pampered, and under-educated.

    Now I know this may seem like a bit of a generalization, but I'll take my chances.
    Not actually ever bee to the US, I have met a lot of citizens and while most of them were highly educated I know where you are coming from. I am currently a expat in Singapore where they recon the education system is amongst the highest rated in the world. The problem with these countries are that people are always told how to do things...and they can do it very well. Now the problem comes when you shove a stick in the spoke and all of a sudden you have variation to the norm. This is where they fall short in the sense that they can't think for them selves. While I will likely get a lot of flak for this comment this can be observed regularly in the work place and even trouble higher management. My friends in other sectors are noticing the same thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn
    The USD exchange rate.
    Perhaps but we are seeing the same thing here in SGP
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    The USD exchange rate doesn't really explain the previous question about the high price of Japanese tires. Bridgestone (Japanese), like Michelin (French), makes the vast majority of it's tires for the US market, in the US.

    "The BATO companies employ approximately 24,000 employees throughout North America. Within the BATO business unit are seven North American tire manufacturing facilities located in Aiken County, S.C.; Akron, Ohio; Bloomington/Normal, Ill.; Des Moines, Iowa; LaVergne, Tenn.; Warren County, Tenn.; and Wilson, N.C. An eighth manufacturing facility in Joliette, Quebec, Canada, is owned and operated by Bridgestone Canada Inc."

    http://www.bridgestone-firestone.com...d=about/nacobg


    Very informative thread though. I've learned that Americans are lazy, and Asians can't think for themselves. I can't wait to get to Blacks, Jews and Mexicans.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve
    The USD exchange rate doesn't really explain the previous question about the high price of Japanese tires. Bridgestone (Japanese), like Michelin (French), makes the vast majority of it's tires for the US market, in the US.

    "The BATO companies employ approximately 24,000 employees throughout North America. Within the BATO business unit are seven North American tire manufacturing facilities located in Aiken County, S.C.; Akron, Ohio; Bloomington/Normal, Ill.; Des Moines, Iowa; LaVergne, Tenn.; Warren County, Tenn.; and Wilson, N.C. An eighth manufacturing facility in Joliette, Quebec, Canada, is owned and operated by Bridgestone Canada Inc."

    http://www.bridgestone-firestone.com...d=about/nacobg
    I recently researched Bridgestone tires since they are OEM on one of my vehicles and found that they were mostly made in Japan. I use Tire Racks website as it shows the country of origin. I would say that at least 95% of the tires that fit the car were made in Japan followed by Mexico, USA, Canada, Poland and France.


    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve
    Very informative thread though. I've learned that Americans are lazy, and Asians can't think for themselves. I can't wait to get to Blacks, Jews and Mexicans.
    You can put away the race card... I don't think anyone here is trying to run for president.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel242
    We can start to fix things by doing a better job leveling the import/export playing field.
    The problem is that you have to produce goods in order to export them...

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    I recently researched Bridgestone tires since they are OEM on one of my vehicles and found that they were mostly made in Japan. I use Tire Racks website as it shows the country of origin. I would say that at least 95% of the tires that fit the car were made in Japan followed by Mexico, USA, Canada, Poland and France.
    The same is true with Michelin. Most Michelins are made outside the US, but for the US market, most Michelins are made in the US.
    With 24,000 employees, and 7 factories, Bridgestone is obviously making a butt load of tires in the US. The auto Manufacturers in the US usually have requirements for % of parts actually made in the US, and pass those requirements to their suppliers.

    I can speak with more knowledge about Michelin than Bridgestone, and I know with Michelin, just about every common size of passenger tire is made in Greenville or Columbia SC, light truck and SUV tires in Dothan Alabama, and heavy truck tires in Spartenberg SC. More off the wall sizes, like for mining trucks, or for bicycles, etc, are not made in the US.
    So, if you buy a Honda made in Japan that has Michelin's, those Michelins were probably not made in the US, but there is a replacement tire of the same size that is made in the US, almost certainly.
    So when you buy replacement Bridgestones for your car, I would bet that they will be US made.

    FYI, every tire has a DOT code on it that will tell you where it was made. For example, every tire coming out of the Dothan AL Michelin plant has the marking "B7" on it. You can find the code on your Bridgestones and look up the mfg location here:

    http://netfev.org/rialta/winnebago/t...s_dot_mfgr.htm
    Last edited by smilinsteve; 05-13-2011 at 02:03 PM.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratmonkey
    I try very hard to buy as much as I can from american producers in my life. Simply because a service only economy isn't going to sustain this country.
    I am the same way, its a few more dollars here abs there but at least it will go to another American and not support Chinese economy!

  51. #51
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    if you try to buy an American made frame, how the heck are you going to make the rest of the bike American made? it's impossible. even if i did, 95% of the rest of what i own isn't made in the US.

  52. #52
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    Being on a tight budget, no I'm not overly picky. But once I get a job, I just finished school, I'll spend more for a USA product.
    Mary ss shenanigans

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    Quote Originally Posted by bwheelin
    if you try to buy an American made frame, how the heck are you going to make the rest of the bike American made? it's impossible. even if i did, 95% of the rest of what i own isn't made in the US.
    it's not a binary thing where it's all or nothing. I do the best I can to support the local guys doing it the right way. where it's impossible, i research out a second best option.

    if it's not US-made, or at least made in the developed world, I won't pay top dollar. companies who have sold out to low-cost country manufacturing do not get top-dollar from me.
    whatever...

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadite
    it's not a binary thing where it's all or nothing. I do the best I can to support the local guys doing it the right way. where it's impossible, i research out a second best option.

    if it's not US-made, or at least made in the developed world, I won't pay top dollar. companies who have sold out to low-cost country manufacturing do not get top-dollar from me.
    which companies in your mind are doing it the right way? i'm in the market for a set of wheels and could use all the help i can get.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwheelin
    i'm in the market for a set of wheels and could use all the help i can get.
    Well...it happens I just bought a set.

    White Industries M16 hubs, Wheelsmith DB spokes, Wheelsmith Al nipples, Stans Flow rims, built up by Universal Cycles. Everything US-made except the rims, and at least Stan's is a US-based company--best I could do at that price point. Just rode 'em this evening and exceedingly happy so far.
    whatever...

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadite
    Well...it happens I just bought a set.

    White Industries M16 hubs, Wheelsmith DB spokes, Wheelsmith Al nipples, Stans Flow rims, built up by Universal Cycles. Everything US-made except the rims, and at least Stan's is a US-based company--best I could do at that price point. Just rode 'em this evening and exceedingly happy so far.
    I have those too and they go well... though I prefer my Hope Hubs since they havse a larger dealer network in these parts and parts are relatively cheap.
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadite
    Well...it happens I just bought a set.

    White Industries M16 hubs, Wheelsmith DB spokes, Wheelsmith Al nipples, Stans Flow rims, built up by Universal Cycles. Everything US-made except the rims, and at least Stan's is a US-based company--best I could do at that price point. Just rode 'em this evening and exceedingly happy so far.
    Did you look at Industry Nine wheels? I have put them on my short list for my next set of wheels.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    Did you look at Industry Nine wheels? I have put them on my short list for my next set of wheels.
    Yep, looked at 'em, but I9 is a higher price point than what I got. Also, I guess I wanted something a bit more "understated". The White Industries hubs are very classy and quality without being at all "bling".
    whatever...

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadite
    Yep, looked at 'em, but I9 is a higher price point than what I got. Also, I guess I wanted something a bit more "understated". The White Industries hubs are very classy and quality without being at all "bling".
    The White Industries hubs do look like they are very high quality. "Understated" can go a long ways. Do you know of any US manufacturers that make rims? I can only find those who make complete wheelsets or just hubs.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadite
    Well...it happens I just bought a set.

    White Industries M16 hubs, Wheelsmith DB spokes, Wheelsmith Al nipples, Stans Flow rims, built up by Universal Cycles. Everything US-made except the rims, and at least Stan's is a US-based company--best I could do at that price point. Just rode 'em this evening and exceedingly happy so far.
    i should have been more specific. what i meant by a set of wheels was the whole bike.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer
    What's the difference between "Hell no", and "It doesn't really matter to me"?
    it doesn't really matter to me = it doesn't really matter to me
    Hell no = I absolutely do not want a USA made bike/frame

    Sorry, I could have made it clearer... The poll was a result of late night blogging.

  62. #62
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    I would pay more for a bike made in the USA, but not much more. I am a firm believer in tariffs to bring the prices of foreign goods into line with domestic goods. This is a difficult manipulation on the market to get right, but I see it as the only way we can level the playing field and preserve and even encourage a strong manufacturing sector in this country.

    The problem is that tariffs which are too high discourage efficiency, reduce competition and will make foreign nations angry. Not only that, but they raise prices on goods which can stall growth. If domestic companies can easily beat the competition, they have less incentive to become more efficient, or even create a better product. Too little (or none), and our manufacturing jobs disappear, along with the factories, raw material processing, and efficient supply chains. There is no way we can compete when our laborers cost $10/hour and the competition makes $5 a day.

    When a nation's economy is growing, tariffs discourage foreign trade which is exactly the opposite of what countries like China and Taiwan want to do. However, the USA is no longer growing and tariffs done correctly and conservatively will create jobs in the long run. Or...we can just keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results.

    Good debate here on both sides of the issue: http://www.debate.org/debates/Resolv...st-policies/1/
    Last edited by TwoHeadsBrewing; 05-20-2011 at 10:20 AM.
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    Feels more customised/personal if its American or European, a marketing thing do not know but is like that.

  64. #64
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    First, I bought a Japanese transitor radio. Loved it! Next, I bought a gold Korean Bike bike. I also loved it. Finally I met a Chinese girl who works at the library. I fell in love with her too.

    I rarely think American when I'm looking at anything from Asian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    Sorry, not trying to come across as supercilious. mtnbiker is right but looking at my Specialized bike it has a sticker on it saying "Handmade in China" and not Taiwan.



    You couldn't have said it any better. The problem that I have is that the bike industry is small enough that if they wanted to have a positive impact they could. I do not know of any bike company that is traded on the stock market. The stakeholders are few and call all of the shots so why are they selling everyone out? They are lacking corporate social responsibility. The bike companies that still produce here (in the USA) get it and understand that it isnt one major company that makes a difference but all of the smaller ones as well.
    "I do not know of any bike company that is traded on the stock market."

    Actually, you surely do, Cannondale, Shwinn, Mongoose, and GT are owned by Dorel Industries, A Canadian corporation, which is traded on the stock market. They seem intent on building a recreational empire and they're well on their way to acquiring all they can, acquiring being the key word. Like all too many of the corporations now days they don't build businesses, they look for ones they can buy or take over. Cannondale was ripe for the picking, aside from some opinions, Cannondale was a company with a very marketable product that was made by US workers earning decent wages. Even if the company was profitable, by shutting down its US manufacturing and sending it overseas, boom, instant profit boost. The sad thing is the company only had about three hundred employees, which is not very big, but you can be sure that the two hundred or so that lost their jobs made a negative impact on the town of Bethel, Connecticut. And any job lost, especially to outsourcing because it takes money out of the country, is bad for the country in general. However, since Dorel Industries is a Canadian corporation they could care less about US workers or the US. Sadly plenty of US corporations (and people for that matter) could care less either.

    Manufacturing built the USA just like it's building all the countries that our manufacturing is being sent to. Good and great US companies that one time employed US workers, paying them livable wages that they also paid taxes with to keep our governments (local, state, and federal) functioning are now being disassembled and destroyed for easy money to the ones doing it. Everyone is so wrapped up in the stock market now, it's such a fad, they're too blind to see the damage it's doing, and has already done. It's like a cancer running loose, destroying everything for maximum profit no matter what the consequences. The sell out of our country by our financial/business crowd for their own personal wealth, with the help of our own government (both parties), is more damaging than any unfriendly country ever could have accomplished by means of war.

    And as much of a joke as the "Made in the USA" situation may be to non US people, unless you're in one of the countries receiving all the manufacturing, it's probably happening to your country as well, if not, it more than likely will be.

    Sorry about the rant for a first post but the whole situation really ticks me off.

    FireLikelYA, just to be clear, my rant wasn't aimed at you at all, I feel where you're coming from and I agree with your position, it's just that in the spider web of the corporate world, one never knows who owns what. I'll stop before I start my rant going again, LOL.

    And to think, I came across this site and thread simply by trying to find a bike still made in the USA.

  66. #66
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    Frames

    Yep, like to support american businesses, when I can. That said I'm not made of money, so I've been known to sell out.

    I ride a couple old K2 EVO's. I don't know who K2 had spec the frames I ride, I suspect they were made overseas. I don't know how many component manufacturers have production plants in the US? I don't even know whether they were assembeled in the US?

    A list of US Manufacturers, US companies that spec their frames overseas but assemble here, US companies that spec US parts... That would help inform consumers!

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    I don't care where my bike frame is made, but what I do care about are manufacturers that make their frames in China and price them like they are made in North America or Europe. This is mainly in the high end of the price spectrum. Thank God there are still custom and small scale bike companies that still offer products made in North America.

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    Companies that have the frames produced in North America

    Ellsworth- high end aluminum, don't know where the carbon frames come from
    Turner and Pivot - I believe their frames are welded by SAPA in Portland
    Spooky- Production from SAPA custom by FTW of Yeti fame
    Independent Fabrication
    Moots
    Ventana
    Devinci- some of there aluminum frames are still welded in Quebec
    Trek- only their top spec carbon frames are made in Wisconsin, and it might be just their road bikes. I could be wrong.


    There are more, just don't know who they are.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whatmeworry View Post
    Companies that have the frames produced in North America

    Ellsworth- high end aluminum, don't know where the carbon frames come from
    Turner and Pivot - I believe their frames are welded by SAPA in Portland
    Spooky- Production from SAPA custom by FTW of Yeti fame
    Independent Fabrication
    Moots
    Ventana
    Devinci- some of there aluminum frames are still welded in Quebec
    Trek- only their top spec carbon frames are made in Wisconsin, and it might be just their road bikes. I could be wrong.


    There are more, just don't know who they are.
    Intense

  70. #70
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    [QUOTE=MoabiSlim;8113170]First, I bought a Japanese transitor radio. Loved it! Next, I bought a gold Korean Bike bike. I also loved it. Finally I met a Chinese girl who works at the library. I fell in love with her too.
    God gave birds, wings to fly .... He gave us, Jamis!

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whatmeworry View Post
    Companies that have the frames produced in North America

    Ellsworth- high end aluminum, don't know where the carbon frames come from
    Turner and Pivot - I believe their frames are welded by SAPA in Portland
    Spooky- Production from SAPA custom by FTW of Yeti fame
    Independent Fabrication
    Moots
    Ventana
    Devinci- some of there aluminum frames are still welded in Quebec
    Trek- only their top spec carbon frames are made in Wisconsin, and it might be just their road bikes. I could be wrong.


    There are more, just don't know who they are.
    BMW (Brooklyn Machine Works) - Crazy bikes





    And also not so 'crazy'


    Honestly... ahh I give up

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    The White Industries hubs do look like they are very high quality. "Understated" can go a long ways. Do you know of any US manufacturers that make rims? I can only find those who make complete wheelsets or just hubs.
    I don't know if they still are (sun ringle?), but my Sun rims say 'made in USA'
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  73. #73
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    I'm less concerned about where my bike was made and more concerned about all the day to day products that we use that are from other countries. Its to the point that even small companies have their products made overseas due to high cost/low quality of locally made items.

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    I would prefer made in the US. Keep the money in the USA...Unfortunately or realistically we are in a global economy and manufacturing for less and higher profits drive the bike makers to foreign countries to have their frames built.....

  75. #75
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    Whats the point in buying American made frames if the rest of the bike is made in China or Taiwan?

  76. #76
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    This is funny - I bought a bike this past Wednesday, and already decided the frame has to go for a few reasons and, just today, after stripping the parts off, I found this (Guess some can tell what it is by the color??!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by oromis View Post
    Whats the point in buying American made frames if the rest of the bike is made in China or Taiwan?
    Among other things it keeps a skilled work force in the USA. One day one of these workers may decide to start a company that will become the next Schwinn and then you can buy that 100% USA made bike.
    Killing it with close inspection.

  78. #78
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    The question was? Oh yeah, people should care, but most don't. When all they can buy is crap and that day will come, then they will care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Pancroft View Post
    This is funny - I bought a bike this past Wednesday, and already decided the frame has to go for a few reasons and, just today, after stripping the parts off, I found this (Guess some can tell what it is by the color??!!
    Ewww.... Be careful there. That brand spends A LOT of money on advertisement (I mean, they charge $700 for a frame that costs $40 to make). Be careful dissing them on the forums less you want to be called a MTB poseur by the "followers".
    Killing it with close inspection.

  80. #80
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    Yes, definitely. I hold up my Moots, not because of the name, but because of the people who made it. Mountain biking has its roots in America and I like to support those still making there bikes here as well. I fell the same about snowboarding, I have purchased a GNU, Never Summer, and a Venture snowboard all of which are made here in USA with pride. I truly feel that those companies have not sold out to the masses (for the most part) and are simply just a name on a product. If I buy a Moots I want it made in the Moots workshop (I dare call it a factory) by Moots employees. If it was outsourced to Taiwan to one of their factories...well its just a name on a bike frame to me and I am no longer interested. If you do not feel pride in what you ride, thats fine, its all about riding anyway, but it matters to me.

    P.S. I also like a certain German microphone company and if they were to outsource to manufacture cheaper outside of Germany, I would no longer hold that company up to the higher standards they have set..I like companies that make in house in their country of origin. Yes I even owned a Bianchi at one point, but it was made in Italy.

    Just another side note..I would also happily buy a Rockey Mountain as long as its still made in Canada.
    Last edited by Magnum Ti; 04-13-2013 at 08:22 PM.

  81. #81
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    From now on, all my frames will be made in Russia. Triton frames are unreal.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canyon93108 View Post
    From now on, all my frames will be made in Russia. Triton frames are unreal.
    That sounds cool too..

  83. #83
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    I guess it boils down to a lot of factors for a lot of different people. The reality of it though, for someone who has a family this day and age, like myself, is that how much can one really afford? Bikes have gotten outrageously expensive overall, and the "ones made in the US" are even more outlandish. All of the features that I want in a bike, now cost $5,000. That same bike, "made in the USA" costs $7000. Sorry fellas, but my pockets are only so deep. My families gotta eat, be clothed, and the kids have to go to a good school. Bottom line.

    If American companies can be competitive, and not suck (IE American cars for the longest time) than good on them.

    But quite frankly, I've NEVER had an issue with an aluminum or carbon frame built from another country. Especially one of the ones from a big-box brand.

    So, I'll stick with my "Taiwan" bikes until someone in the good ol' US of A can get their head out of their ass, and make it competitive again. Oh wait, the US Gov prevents all of that..... i forgot.....
    You in Oklahoma City? If yes, come ride with us.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHit-Maniac View Post
    I guess it boils down to a lot of factors for a lot of different people. The reality of it though, for someone who has a family this day and age, like myself, is that how much can one really afford? Bikes have gotten outrageously expensive overall, and the "ones made in the US" are even more outlandish. All of the features that I want in a bike, now cost $5,000. That same bike, "made in the USA" costs $7000. Sorry fellas, but my pockets are only so deep. My families gotta eat, be clothed, and the kids have to go to a good school. Bottom line.

    If American companies can be competitive, and not suck (IE American cars for the longest time) than good on them.

    But quite frankly, I've NEVER had an issue with an aluminum or carbon frame built from another country. Especially one of the ones from a big-box brand.

    So, I'll stick with my "Taiwan" bikes until someone in the good ol' US of A can get their head out of their ass, and make it competitive again. Oh wait, the US Gov prevents all of that..... i forgot.....
    What specs are you looking at? It seems like around the $5k price range there really is no difference between a bike with a USA made frame and others... This would be building it yourself.
    Killing it with close inspection.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHit-Maniac View Post
    I guess it boils down to a lot of factors for a lot of different people. The reality of it though, for someone who has a family this day and age, like myself, is that how much can one really afford? Bikes have gotten outrageously expensive overall, and the "ones made in the US" are even more outlandish. All of the features that I want in a bike, now cost $5,000. That same bike, "made in the USA" costs $7000. Sorry fellas, but my pockets are only so deep. My families gotta eat, be clothed, and the kids have to go to a good school. Bottom line.

    If American companies can be competitive, and not suck (IE American cars for the longest time) than good on them.

    But quite frankly, I've NEVER had an issue with an aluminum or carbon frame built from another country. Especially one of the ones from a big-box brand.

    So, I'll stick with my "Taiwan" bikes until someone in the good ol' US of A can get their head out of their ass, and make it competitive again. Oh wait, the US Gov prevents all of that..... i forgot.....

    Really? You must not be thinking much about the future! It's Americans like yourself that put us were we are in this economy!
    When all the U.S. based manufacturing moves over seas where are you kids that are eating well now going to work when the need jobs?

    THINK LONG TERM! You are being selfish if you think about it, go out to eat less and buy that more expensive American made product! It will pay off in the end!

  86. #86
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    I think the 'buy US made bikes' argument is a lot like the 'shop your LBS' argument.
    Both seem to put my bottom line behind someone else's bottom line, simply because they choose to work in the bike industry. I don't buy it (pun intended). Of course, I would never pay retail for a bike, so I guess it doesn't matter what I think anyway. I look for a good deal on something that works for me. Oddly enough, that's led to me having no less than 7 'handmade in the USA' frames kicking around the shed right now. Go figure.

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