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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    I can't stand when people make statements like this. The talk down about bikes direct for what spec level they call their bike but all one has to do is click on the bike and they give you a COMPLETE list of the parts on the bike. IT's not like they are trying to hide anything.

    As someone else noted, generally with bikes direct the description usually means the shifters and deraileurs that you are getting. you typically get a 3rd party crank and then a lower spec cassette and chain. Also Brakes may leave something to be desired, but lets be honest, at the prices they are selling them for, they are very solid bikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    What the **** is your problem? You are a punk. If you got a problem with my opinion, thats fine, but kindly present some kind of useful information to back yourself up instead of talking **** and stop taking this thread off topic. In this case, my opinon is a FACT. Bikes direct lists every part that goes onto their bikes. Nothing is being hidden. now go back to STFU.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    um no, thats not remotely close to the same thing he said. but I already know your reading comprehension completely sucks. keep on trolling the beginner forum Sandusky.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    lol, ummm okay. have another one
    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    whos the giver and who's the receiver in your relationship with mimi?
    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    stop polluting this guys threads with off topic posts. stop stalking me. Why don't you bring up the full context of that statement jackass. so I can prove myself right again.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    Helpful member? Kindly show me how he was of any value to the op in this thread. He doesn't like the fact a "newb" with 100posts has made him look silly by disproving his erroneous statements so he has a vendetta against me. Oh no, what shall i do?

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


    Yet there is soooo much value in these posts. Just stop. We get it. You like your Moto. No one cares. You're an internet bad ass. No one cares. In short, no one cares about you. Banhammer in 5. 4.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakkoush View Post
    How does Shimano XTR compare to XT in terms of durability?
    I head that XTR is not only lighter than the XT but it wears out much quicker than the XT !!
    Your comments are appreciated


    A more salient point to durability is proper maintenance. Proper cleaning and lubrication can extend the lifespan by three or four fold. To address the original question, unless you have money in excess the XT level components could last longer but will cost far less to replace when you do wear them out. Bang for the buck.

  3. #53
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    Wow, a new level of low for the Beginner's thread.
    Never felt the need, or had the $$ for XTR or XO.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyin_W View Post
    Wow, a new level of low for the Beginner's thread.
    Never felt the need, or had the $$ for XTR or XO.
    just because someone is a beginner doesn't mean they aren't gainfully employed. I see dr's and lawyers riding dura ace road bikes all the time. Whats 6k for a bike when you make 300k a year? A lot of people want the perceived "best of the best" without understanding that it's actually not the best for them.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Yet there is soooo much value in these posts. Just stop. We get it. You like your Moto. No one cares. You're an internet bad ass. No one cares. In short, no one cares about you. Banhammer in 5. 4.
    Sorry, you aren't aware of mimi's history with me and if you were you could see that he clearly decided to bring it into this thread for no reason whatsoever. I don't ride a motobecane mtb, but I wouldn't hesitate too. Tired of the snobs on here. no i'm not an internet bad ass, I'm a real life bad ass, but I'm also a smart one. see here in NYC, we mind our own business and people who don't mind their business end up getting hurt. You have nothing to do with this discussion between mimi and I so you stay out of it.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    just because someone is a beginner doesn't mean they aren't gainfully employed. I see dr's and lawyers riding dura ace road bikes all the time. Whats 6k for a bike when you make 300k a year? A lot of people want the perceived "best of the best" without understanding that it's actually not the best for them.



    Just more ranting, how about some substance that addresses the question at hand? Please?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    Sorry, you aren't aware of mimi's history with me and if you were you could see that he clearly decided to bring it into this thread for no reason whatsoever. I don't ride a motobecane mtb, but I wouldn't hesitate too. Tired of the snobs on here. no i'm not an internet bad ass, I'm a real life bad ass, but I'm also a smart one. see here in NYC, we mind our own business and people who don't mind their business end up getting hurt. You have nothing to do with this discussion between mimi and I so you stay out of it.



    AH! Transparency. You simply come to this thread with an axe to grind. Ban Hammer please.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Just more ranting, how about some substance that addresses the question at hand? Please?
    Ranting? really? A response that directly addresses another response about the issue at hand and you say I am ranting? WHile you decide to step in and critique my posts and offer no value. Stop harassing me. you wouldn't be man enough to do it in the real world so don't do it here.

    OP, obviously this entire topic is very subjective and a number of factors come into play. For example, if you had the opportunity to get an XTR group for free vs paying for XT, you probably wouldn't say "gee xt is more durable so I'm gonna $XYZ for that group instead of taking the free XTR group" In my OPINION(can you haters read that? it's an opinion) people act like carbon is far more fragile than it is. Incidents that break carbon parts would probably damage aluminum and steel parts as well. Finally, it's all about business. XTR and DuraAce aren't expensive because of production costs. They may want you to think that but it's simply not true. It's all about having varying pricepoints for people to buy into . I'm not going to go overboard with how business run but we see this in all avenues of retail goods. Some people want luxury items just to say they have them and it's silly for a business not to produce them if they know people will pay a premium for them.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    AH! Transparency. You simply come to this thread with an axe to grind. Ban Hammer please.
    see you are another one of those who lack basic reading comprehension. You accuse me of coming to the thread with an axe to grind, meanwhile I posted BEFORE mimi and HE came to the thread and started giving me a ration of ****? But why let facts get in the way of things. Maybe I'll call the mods in myself so they can take a look thru and see who is initiating the attacks. And lets add you to the list of people that have nothign to do with this and should butt out.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    Maybe I'll call the mods in myself so they can take a look thru and see who is initiating the attacks.




    Self Immolation. Awesome, please do.

  11. #61
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    From pre-Internet forum times ...

    FidoNet's basic social guideline, "Do not be excessively annoying and do not become excessively annoyed."

    On-topic: I do not own any gear better than SLX, because I'm a cheapskate and a newbie. That gear works well for me.

    If I bought a BD bike, I would obsess over the no-name components more than I would over the few name-brand bling components.

  12. #62
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    Resorting to threats? How weak.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails XT vs XTR in terms of durability-capture-butt-hurt.jpg  


  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Race does not wear any more quickly. It just has slightly different features - like servo-wave in the brake.

    In my experience XTR is more durable - bearings in shifters, better alloy on crankarms, better bushings in derailleur. But both are quite robust indeed.

    As far as functionality, I only would pick XTR shifters, and cranks for the sole reason of 172.5mm option and narrower stance. If going for XT, I would rather pick SLX for cassette, cranks, brakes, and probably the new Zee for rear derailleur, as it has a short cage option (did not try it yet, but what could be wrong). SLX front derailleur for the double/short cage option.
    I believe that XTR Race does not have servo wave, but XTR Trail does.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    A more salient point to durability is proper maintenance. Proper cleaning and lubrication can extend the lifespan by three or four fold. To address the original question, unless you have money in excess the XT level components could last longer but will cost far less to replace when you do wear them out. Bang for the buck.
    Absolutely a good point to bring some more focus to. Changing your changing your chain regularly, keeping it clean, keeping it lubed will all help lead to improved drivetrain life for any level components.

    I think the main point is that there is a perceived design flaw in XTR that would make it less durable and for most items that is simply not true. Wheels might be a little race oriented leading them to be not as durable but that could be said of any race level wheel set. As (I believe) Keith Bontrager said: "Strong, light, cheap. Pick two." In the case of XTR, you can get strong and light because it's not cheap.
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  15. #65
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    cpfitness, mimi1885, AZ. MTNS, roadie scum (and whoever else might want to get in on the scrum) quit hijacking this thread. As a newbie I was hoping to find some worthwhile comments regarding the durability/value of XT vs XTR, but end up getting caught up in some pissing match. Please grow up and take your childish bickering elsewhere.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by drifter248 View Post
    cpfitness, mimi1885, AZ. MTNS, roadie scum (and whoever else might want to get in on the scrum) quit hijacking this thread. As a newbie I was hoping to find some worthwhile comments regarding the durability/value of XT vs XTR, but end up getting caught up in some pissing match. Please grow up and take your childish bickering elsewhere.



    If you were more concerned with reading rather than trying (weakly) to be a tough guy, you would have learned something from this thread.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyyall View Post
    I've yet to wear something out that isn't supposed to wear out (e.g., chain) by pure use. Cleaning, maintenance and proper use means stuff will out last your interests in a bike.
    I've worn out a couple rear derailleurs, some shifters, a freehub...

    It takes a really long time.
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrwSwitch View Post
    I've worn out a couple rear derailleurs, some shifters, a freehub...

    It takes a really long time.
    Yup

    I wore out an XTR RD, and an XTR FD took over 40,000 km and 7 years of long cold salty winter commuting.....shifters are still fine.

    Pretty sure they would both be going strong if it wasn't for the winters.....

    Both are still usable but not XTR shifting quality....the salt got into the bearings and they shift slow.

  19. #69
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    Usually the rivets on the pivots of the swing arm are the first to go for me on mountain RD's. Probably from being bashed a few to many times, or the more extreme circumstances that they see.

    I have worn out some bearings and cogs on a couple road deraillurs but they saw probably over 10 to 20 thousand miles.
    "Any wheel size is better than sitting at a computer all day." -Myself

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebrahum View Post
    ..Nothing Shimano makes is disposable, well not at the top end of the spectrum. ..
    actually - their M970 XTR Calipers (hydro) cannot be rebuilt....so when a seal blows the caliper is hosed...


    I know...my front M970 blew in Downieville....3 days of 15 mile downhills and no front brake...

    I'm a better technical rider now
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by drifter248 View Post
    cpfitness, mimi1885, AZ. MTNS, roadie scum (and whoever else might want to get in on the scrum) quit hijacking this thread. As a newbie I was hoping to find some worthwhile comments regarding the durability/value of XT vs XTR, but end up getting caught up in some pissing match. Please grow up and take your childish bickering elsewhere.
    good call Drifter....there's some solid info in this mess...

    Back on topic - go with XT best bang for the buck IMO, but if you're excited by the high end components (and can afford them) you cannot go wrong with XTR...

    I, myself, am a bike snob and enjoy the chi-chi bike bits...even though it doesn't make me any faster
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  22. #72
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    Hey Mr. Whoever you are: I'm glad you got my joke, but missed the humor.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    Sorry, you aren't aware of mimi's history with me and if you were you could see that he clearly decided to bring it into this thread for no reason whatsoever. I don't ride a motobecane mtb, but I wouldn't hesitate too. Tired of the snobs on here. no i'm not an internet bad ass, I'm a real life bad ass, but I'm also a smart one. see here in NYC, we mind our own business and people who don't mind their business end up getting hurt. You have nothing to do with this discussion between mimi and I so you stay out of it.
    cpfitness.

    chill.

    no response necessary here - keep it to PM's.
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    just because someone is a beginner doesn't mean they aren't gainfully employed. I see dr's and lawyers riding dura ace road bikes all the time. Whats 6k for a bike when you make 300k a year? A lot of people want the perceived "best of the best" without understanding that it's actually not the best for them.
    Simply amazing...
    Please, get back on the meds, or call someone for help - I'm concerned.
    Other than my not "feeling the need", where did I infer that anyone is economically-challenged?
    A "need" is not a "want". If you desire something, and can afford it -great, but do not try to profess that it is notably better,
    or that you can feel a difference.
    Back to topic:

    When properly tuned & maintained one would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between SLX - XT- XTR. Except when purchasing a replacement.
    And any stick bigger than your pinkie can & will snap each of them equally quick.
    Have broken many hangers & rear der's, so when trails are leaf-covered, I tend to ride SS.

  25. #75
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    Hard to tell from Deore too, without either reading the labels or a scale. Although I do have mostly LX and SLX.

    We'll see if finishing my degree changes my mind. But I've pretty much standardized on a Deore rear derailleur for my two off-road bikes. They're cheaper when I break them.
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  26. #76
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    Sure am glad I went with XX1
    There seems to be a dark cloud of controversy over all this Shimano stuff

    Sj
    I am slow therefore I am

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I think SLX is where the value optimum is at.
    Agree, first gen slx crankset looks and feel really good, actually a few grams lighter than XT, and more set up choices. If Shimano put "XTR" on it I'd believe it.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    see you are another one of those who lack basic reading comprehension. You accuse me of coming to the thread with an axe to grind, meanwhile I posted BEFORE mimi and HE came to the thread and started giving me a ration of ****? But why let facts get in the way of things. Maybe I'll call the mods in myself so they can take a look thru and see who is initiating the attacks. And lets add you to the list of people that have nothign to do with this and should butt out.
    Check again

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by drifter248 View Post
    cpfitness, mimi1885, AZ. MTNS, roadie scum (and whoever else might want to get in on the scrum) quit hijacking this thread. As a newbie I was hoping to find some worthwhile comments regarding the durability/value of XT vs XTR, but end up getting caught up in some pissing match. Please grow up and take your childish bickering elsewhere.
    Noted.

    There were plenty said about the subject. Here's the thing cpfitness came in here and started to derail the thread defending bikedirect, that's a no no, especially in the beginner's forum. We need to call him on it, if not some noobs would come in and see the non-sense.

    Back to the topic,
    My easy understanding on the Shimano components line is (let's start from the bottom)
    Deore is the entry level Mtb components, then the LX and SLX which enjoy the trickle down tech from XT/XTR, the main difference between SLX and XT is the forming method, XT-cold forged and, SLX-Cast, many other features are the same.

    XTR has about 10-15% performance boost over XT at twice the price, and the performance gain mainly found in more extreme situations. When it comes to pure performance, if you don't care about going thru your gears from top to bottom in 2 swipes, and/or have the habit of shifting in the middle of the steep hill, you won't notice it.

    Now it's even more choices as XTR has split into race and trail. Race for high performance XC application, and trail is for All Mountain heavier duty application. For the ultimate in Shimano durability would be Saint line.
    Last edited by mimi1885; 12-04-2012 at 01:41 PM.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    I'm a real life bad ass.
    You should try chamois cream (butt lube) - DZ Nuts is a good brand. Reduces chafing and cases of severely bad ass.

  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleJon View Post
    Unless money is no object I would go with Deore, SLX or XT, you won't notice the difference until you develop your fitness and skills.
    Shifter is somewhat noticeable - judging by my wife. XTR is very light action.

    On my bikes I often end up with parts for historical reasons - for her bike my calculations of the value optimum had been: SLX crank with XT granny ring (alloy) and BBG bash guard instead of the large ring, SLX cassette (new one), XT rear derailleur and SLX front (short cage) - would have bought Zee shadow-plus rear D now, XTR shifter (splurged), XT brakes (appearance reason over SLX) and SLX 6-bolt MT-65 wheels and RT76 (non ice-tech) rotors. With some interwebz shopping kung-fu deals had been really, really good.

  32. #82
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    I bought all xtr drivetrain used it for almost a year/3k miles, traded it to my buddy for a new xt drivetrain with shadow rd. The only difference is a few grams and the shifter takes a lil more force but I atribute that to the shadow rd

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    You can learn a lot about the durability of component groups by looking at the exploded diagrams for said parts on shimano's website.

    Take a rear deraileur for instance. At the deore level, the jockey sprocket is just a single piece. Go a level higher and you've got a bronze/oilite bushing as your bearing surface instead of nylon. Go another level higher and you've got a ceramic bushing. Bushings have nice bearing surfaces. Ceramic is harder than bronze. Stuff with nice bearing surfaces will endure longer before developing sufficient slop to cause alignment problems. Stuff with hard bearing surfaces will last even longer. That tells you a lot about longetivity.

    Take a look at the schematic for the part in question.
    Identify wear surfaces and what might be causing the wear.
    Figure out which wear surface will last longest based on lubricity and hardness and resistance to corrosion.

    You can use a similar strategy for each component to try to identify what is going to last longest.

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    Sorry, you aren't aware of mimi's history with me and if you were you could see that he clearly decided to bring it into this thread for no reason whatsoever. I don't ride a motobecane mtb, but I wouldn't hesitate too. Tired of the snobs on here. no i'm not an internet bad ass, I'm a real life bad ass, but I'm also a smart one. see here in NYC, we mind our own business and people who don't mind their business end up getting hurt. You have nothing to do with this discussion between mimi and I so you stay out of it.
    BWAHAHAHAHAHA, pure 24k gold, sometimes this place throws up a real gem of a post, honestly this post made me crack right up..

    edit, sorry CHUM missed the message to chill......just read it.....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  35. #85
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    Interesting to see how this thread has evolved !

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerJoe View Post
    Sure am glad I went with XX1
    There seems to be a dark cloud of controversy over all this Shimano stuff

    Sj
    You're right. Glad I'm on X0/X9 components too. They do have a significantly crisper shift feel. On the flipside, my Avid Ultimates serve their purpose but aren't the best ones around.


    ....wait am I starting another war?

    -S

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  37. #87
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    I've always liked to mix and match components depending on wear and cost vs weight. An xtr cassette will last forever as will an xtr shifter and derailleur. An xt front derailleur and crank will get you more bang for the buck with little weight penalty. Brakes I think xt or slx are just as good as xtr with just a bit of weight penalty.

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambassadorhawg View Post
    I've had a few different bikes built up with some of the parts from the last 3 generations (960, 970, 985) of XTR. Also used quite a bit of the last 3 gens of XT. All parts functioned smoothly and lasted long.

    Either way, you won't be disappointed, it's all good.

    My current bike has a combo of XTR/XT and it's great, too.
    Spot on...
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

  39. #89
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    I've always rode XT, never had any problems.
    Good luck and good riding.
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
    You're a Tailgunner

  40. #90
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    Wow before reading this thread I thought my Alivio is supreme but now I feel like I have to replace it as soon as possible. In other words...

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    Alivio isn't good enough. Not for mountain biking. Deore is minimum.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jernas View Post
    Wow before reading this thread I thought my Alivio is supreme but now I feel like I have to replace it as soon as possible. In other words...
    If you're happy with it, then it's fine. Don't replace unless it breaks.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Alivio isn't good enough. Not for mountain biking. Deore is minimum.
    I raced an Alivio drivetrain for my first season.

    Granted it didn't all survive that first season. But it's fine for rec. mountain biking and getting one's feet wet in competition. It all worked fine before I started competing. When tuned, it stays tuned. Etc. It's just a little less forgiving of shifting under load, a little less serviceable, and some parts have a little shorter wear life. I don't know that I'd be Alivio as replacement parts, but I think it's a great package for someone getting into the sport. I'd rather have a bike ship with an Alivio drivetrain and a "real" fork than what a lot of companies do, which is working up to a SLX drivetrain before they bolt on a Recon.

    Actually still have my M-475 hub. I laced it into a new wheel for my commute bike not too long ago.
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Alivio isn't good enough. Not for mountain biking. Deore is minimum.
    I highly disagree. I would bet that more often than not, a rider's first mountain bike is equipped with Alivio-level components. Like Andrew said, they aren't quite as durable or reliable, but lots of people get by just fine with them.

  45. #95
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    Depends on how much and how hard you are riding. If you have a bike with Alivio, go with it and replace as necessary. If you're looking for a bike or looking to replace and plan to ride more than 500 hard, off road, miles in one year, Deore is minimum I would recommend.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Depends on how much and how hard you are riding. If you have a bike with Alivio, go with it and replace as necessary. If you're looking for a bike or looking to replace and plan to ride more than 500 hard, off road, miles in one year, Deore is minimum I would recommend.
    Yup... run the Alivio into the ground. It WILL explode at some time in the future - your mileage may vary depending on how hard you ride. At that point replace it with something less likely to explode.

    -S

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by shibiwan View Post
    You're right. Glad I'm on X0/X9 components too. They do have a significantly crisper shift feel. On the flipside, my Avid Ultimates serve their purpose but aren't the best ones around.


    ....wait am I starting another war?

    -S

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
    That is true though. SRAM 1:1 feels really good when shifting it up or down is positive, however everyone around you can hear you shift from a mile away, there's no sneak attack on the hill. Shimano is really smooth. I like them both just different flavor.

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Alivio isn't good enough. Not for mountain biking. Deore is minimum.
    8sp is more then reliable enough. So are V-brakes. Keep it lubed and tuned and it all lasts quite fine.

    But their is a notable performance improvement when going for hydraulic brakes. And I do recommend to all of my friends to replace the big ring with a cheap bash-guard (like BB) for safety reasons. And something better than a cheap cage pedal. I would also avoid a freewheel rear on the low end. It blows up under spirited use..

  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885 View Post
    That is true though. SRAM 1:1 feels really good when shifting it up or down is positive, however everyone around you can hear you shift from a mile away, there's no sneak attack on the hill. Shimano is really smooth. I like them both just different flavor.
    I do not think it is 1:1 anymore for the 10sp. I certainly not 1:2 anymore for Shimano. Looks like they are converging to a happy medium.

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Alivio isn't good enough. Not for mountain biking. Deore is minimum.
    It is good enough. Anything is good enough, seriously. It's all in how you use it.

    I have used 7 speed on my old 1990 Rockhopper, original derailleur (albeit Exage 500...1990!!!). Original crank wore out though, square taper hole started rounding out and chainrings are worn to hell.

    My Rockhopper is also using v-brakes.

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