1. The most important thing about buying a new bike is to make sure it fits. The only way you'll know if the bike is right for you is to size up the bike and make sure that the bike's geometry matches your body's geometry. Ask questions and do some research.
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2. If possible, try to find a shop that will let you demo the bike on real dirt. Five minutes in a parking lot won't cut it. You wouldn't buy a car without a real world test drive, and a bike should be no different.
3. Don't belive the hype. Just because your favorite rider or best friend rides a certain bike, that doesn't mean that's the best one for you. Have an open mind and be realistic about your needs and ability.
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  1. #76
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    This isn't scientific. I've had two flats with tubes on my new fatbike. Today, my front tire was tubeless, the rear has a tube. I've pumped up my rear tire twice. My front tubeless tire was flawless.

  2. #77
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    Good luck Z4!
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  3. #78
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    Just one more thing, in the spirit of Columbo. Couldn't resist...

    I think we went a bit off-topic with the tubeless thing when one benefit of tubeless was said to be the ability to run lower pressures. From there it went to pressures without regards to tube vs. tubeless.

    We overlooked the fact that the comparison wasn't between the same setup with a higher and lower pressure, but rather "with a tube, higher pressure" and "tubeless, lower pressure".

    I would argue that removing the tube has a positive effect on rolling resistance, which may be negated by lower pressure, so one hypothetic outcome would be "less pressure, same rolling resistance". I.E. when you go tubeless, you can run lower pressures for the traction and smooth ride without increasing rolling resistance compared to your old setup with tubes.

  4. #79
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    Great point Saul! For those lurking noobs - the reason this is the case is because it takes energy to deform a pressurized tire and tube. It takes energy to pinch a tire and tube, right? Same thing is constantly happening when you are riding. As you ride, the tire and tube has to constantly change from round to flat to round as it passes over the contact patch. When you eliminate the tube, you energy the loss that happens when the tube goes through that cycle.

    So, it's true when converting the same tire with and without tubes. It might not be the case if you go from a standard tire with tubes to a UST tire because of the stiffness of the sidewall, etc. This is why lighter tires often have lower rolling resistance- because it takes less energy for the casing to go from round to flat to negative arc (for roots and rocks) and back to round.

    This principle also explains why it is more difficult to push that dolly with low pressure tires compared to higher pressure. But, put a stick in front of that Dolly's tires and the force that is required to push the dolly over the stick is lower with lower pressure tires compared to higher pressure tires. The "butter zone" is to minimize the force required to move over smooth and irregular surfaces.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  5. #80
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    good summary wmac... that pretty much ends the discussion...


    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Great point Saul! For those lurking noobs - the reason this is the case is because it takes energy to deform a pressurized tire and tube. It takes energy to pinch a tire and tube, right? Same thing is constantly happening when you are riding. As you ride, the tire and tube has to constantly change from round to flat to round as it passes over the contact patch. When you eliminate the tube, you energy the loss that happens when the tube goes through that cycle.

    So, it's true when converting the same tire with and without tubes. It might not be the case if you go from a standard tire with tubes to a UST tire because of the stiffness of the sidewall, etc. This is why lighter tires often have lower rolling resistance- because it takes less energy for the casing to go from round to flat to negative arc (for roots and rocks) and back to round.

    This principle also explains why it is more difficult to push that dolly with low pressure tires compared to higher pressure. But, put a stick in front of that Dolly's tires and the force that is required to push the dolly over the stick is lower with lower pressure tires compared to higher pressure tires. The "butter zone" is to minimize the force required to move over smooth and irregular surfaces.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    This principle also explains why it is more difficult to push that dolly with low pressure tires compared to higher pressure. But, put a stick in front of that Dolly's tires and the force that is required to push the dolly over the stick is lower with lower pressure tires compared to higher pressure tires. The "butter zone" is to minimize the force required to move over smooth and irregular surfaces.
    Though again, deflate those tires too much, and you again start increasing the effort required to overcome the "stick" due to all the extra tire deformation going on. Not too hard, to too soft, just right.

  7. #82
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    CSC - Yep - You're right!
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  8. #83
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    We've reached a point of 100% agreement. This is too rare on the internet.

    I got a notification: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to wmac again."

  9. #84
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    I think I hit everyone a while back
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  10. #85
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    Tubeless definitely sounds a lot better

  11. #86
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    Boy was it ever Worth converting...Sorry I waited so long.

    Well after posting here about converting to tubeless, I took the bike for spin on Thursday out in the desert and I ran threw a thorn patch where I picked up 4 punctures in the rear & 6 in the front tire. If I had been on tubes i would have had to change the tube on the front and use 1 patch kit to fix up the rear. Otherwise I would have had to walk up to the trail to a road and call for a ride. Went for a another 10 mile ride today, I never aired up the tires since they were as firm now as 4 days ago.

  12. #87
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! tubless is good excellent

    the tubeless is the future

    no more problems to remain on the ground Nee itching, mqggior comfort and response in the guide

    more grip

    is almost full. the top is tubular but only for those who have lots of money and racers

    the tubeless than the tubes is another world, a huge step quality

  13. #88
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    Ok Ill start by saying yes Im a noob and may not have a valid opinion as I have never run tubeless but noone here has mentioned rotational mass.If you run circus wheels and you save weight in the tyre you dont just save on rolling resistance(or not) but the rotational mass will be much less, meaning that pedaling will be easier and the bike will have less momentum. Maybe it would make a 29er pedal a little more like a 26"

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by moofish View Post
    Ok Ill start by saying yes Im a noob and may not have a valid opinion as I have never run tubeless but noone here has mentioned rotational mass.If you run circus wheels and you save weight in the tyre you dont just save on rolling resistance(or not) but the rotational mass will be much less, meaning that pedaling will be easier and the bike will have less momentum. Maybe it would make a 29er pedal a little more like a 26"
    Valid opinion. Discussed in thread above. Tubeless 29 vs tubeless 26 is same as tubed 29 vs tubed 26. Minimal weight loss performance gain.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  15. #90
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    The weight reduction doesn't make pedaling in itself easier, but acceleration and climbing benefit from reduced weight.

    As for a 29er pedaling like a 26... There's way more to that. I've run my 29er with tubes before going tubeless and my 26" also tubed and tubeless. None of the four setups compare to each other. The size difference makes way more of a difference than tubes vs. tubeless.

    I'll just say tubeless offers several benefits no matter what size tires you like to run. Even my road bike is tubeless.

  16. #91
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    what kinda upkeep do you have with tubeless? how long before the sealant loses it stick, does it dry out and lose it integrity inside the tire over time. Do you need to add more sealant ever few rides?.

    I keep thinking about switching because most of my tubes are more patch then tube, im 250ish in full kit 240 for my average ride. But its rough rooty and rocky and im not the best rider int he world so i miss alot of kicks and case stuff all the time ending in lots of pinch flats.

    The tubeless system seems a great idea, but it also seems like it could be a bit of a pain int he ass. Get a flat ont he side of the trail and now you have tubeless goo to deal with aswell as allt he mud and dirt.. i dunno
    2012 Giant Reign 1

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinGB View Post
    what kinda upkeep do you have with tubeless? how long before the sealant loses it stick, does it dry out and lose it integrity inside the tire over time. Do you need to add more sealant ever few rides?.

    I keep thinking about switching because most of my tubes are more patch then tube, im 250ish in full kit 240 for my average ride. But its rough rooty and rocky and im not the best rider int he world so i miss alot of kicks and case stuff all the time ending in lots of pinch flats.

    The tubeless system seems a great idea, but it also seems like it could be a bit of a pain int he ass. Get a flat ont he side of the trail and now you have tubeless goo to deal with aswell as allt he mud and dirt.. i dunno
    Change it out every 3-6 months. If you cut a tire on the trail, the sealant likely spewed out already trying to seal it. It has to be a very big cut for this to happen. Just clean the area and put a patch on the tire and put a tube in like you would with a normal flat.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  18. #93
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    how is the DT swiss tubeless conversion kits compared to stans? the price is a little bit better and i would imagine things would be better fitted for the rims i have. Is tubeless brew pretty much the same through everyone?
    2012 Giant Reign 1

  19. #94
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    Not sure - I only use Stan's with UST rims. There are some tire/rim combos that are better than others.
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  20. #95
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    I use tube of DH ande tyre of DH, Maxxis Minion front and rear, and never lost air in my wheels

  21. #96
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    Someone (I know who you are ) gave me negative rep for my first post to this thread, and I want to comment.

    cars with tubeless tires get better gas mileage? compared to all the cars out there with tubes? nice try
    My point exactly. That's one reason why tubed auto tires are a thing of the past thankfully.

    I have probably been around a little longer than the commentor. While tubeless tires were pretty much standard even when I was a child, there was still a discussion of tubes vs tubeless for cars, and there were a few old-timers who liked tubes. I remember my high school auto shop teacher discussing the advantages of tubeless, and he mentioned cooler running and better gas mileage. (Radials have the same advantages BTW).

    Anyway, give it another 10 years, and I will surprised if tubes aren't pretty much a thing of the past in better-than-department-store bikes. If'm I'm wrong, you can give me more negative rep. And, the people who think they roll noticibly easier, while I don't agree, have some evidence to back them up.
    Last edited by DennisF; 12-23-2012 at 05:14 PM.

  22. #97
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    The Myans were right.
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  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisF View Post
    Anyway, give it another 10 years, and I will surprised if tubes aren't prettymuch a thing of the past in better-than-department-store bikes. If'm I'm wrong, you can give me more negative rep. And, the people who think they roll noticibly easier, while I don't agree, have some evidence to back them up.
    I doubt that. First of all it's a messy thing to do. People don't like to deal with mess.
    Second of all: It can get time consuming with all the shaking, and turning and soap water and stuff. You can argue that you can swap tubeless tyres in 15 minutes, but that's your skill with your specific setup.
    Third: It's more expensive. Maybe not that much, but for many people that take cycling more as an occasional hobby than a passion it can be a valid factor.

    I think that your prognosis is a bit... optimistic.

  24. #99
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    Techniques, tools and components develop. Once technology becomes more common, prices drop. Tubeless will increase in popularity as a result.

    That said, tubes will probably remain the easier way and some people can't tell the difference (or the convenience outweighs the slight advantage). As opposed to cars, end users change tires a lot more so ease of installation is a more significant factor.

    Not all people (or even enthusiasts) are willing to go that far for some performance. This applies to tubulars as well.

  25. #100
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    You both make good points. However, I think a lot of the resistance to tubeless is just the momentium that tubes have, like it probably was when tubeless auto tires came out. People often loathe change.

    I may be full of it, but I think that once you learn how to deal with tubeless, it is currently as much about convenience as performance -- you can schedule maintenance of your tires at your convenience rather than deal with enroute failures. It doesn't take much to pop the bead and inspect the sealant, adding if necessary. I am trying glycol-based goo. It cleans up with water and is way less messy than Stans. Probably not as good at sealing holes, but from every indication so far, way better than tubes. No failures yet. And no worries about a noob like me pinching a tube while installing it.

    Reading here and looking at the healthy number of posters who try a good TLR system and like it and stay with it, and the few that go back to tubes, I'd say it's catching on.

    The technology is still in its early stages and there is room for improvment. Imagine if the sealant would last for a year and bikes came from the factory already set up for tubeless. This is not too far-fetched. Heck, there are currently rims that don't need goo. That is a problem if you get a puncture, but if you could plug holes without dismounting like you do your car....

    Anyway, we'll see!
    Last edited by DennisF; 12-23-2012 at 05:28 PM.

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