Why go tubeless?

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  • 12-24-2012
    tehninjo0
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Here's where I start asking questions trying to figure out why you want to upgrade and you're going to interpret my investigation as though I'm being a disc. In reality, I'm just trying to figure out if you really want/need to upgrade or if you are just buying shiz because other people told you you should and you feel compelled to do it.

    So, why do you want to upgrade your wheels in the first place? If it's because you want lighter wheels, then why do you want lighter wheels? If you want lighter wheels because they are faster, then why do you want to go faster? If you want to go faster because you are racing, then the reasons to get lighter wheels and tubeless tires for racing are different than the reasons why you should get lighter wheels and tubeless tires for recreational riding.

    Why do you mountain bike in the first place? If it's because you like to get some exercise in the outdoors, then what you have is fine.

    Lighter wheels and tubeless tires may not be the answer to whatever problem you have (real or perceived). Let me know what problem or defiency you are facing and I will help you find an appropriate and cost effective solution.

    Please, please, please DO NOT buy stuff because other people make you feel bad for not having it.

    Tubeless setups don't usually save much weight because while weight is lost from the innertube more is usually added in the form of sealant.. In my experience most people run tubeless setup because they aren't prone to pinch flats.

    Less proneness to pinch flats in turn means you can run your tires at a lower pressure about 15-20psi less. This in turn translates to better traction and thus a better experience riding.
  • 12-24-2012
    johnluke
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by swcreates View Post
    I'm doing some upgrades to my bike, and I'm looking my options for wheels. I'm to the point know where I'm looking at tube and tubeless rims. What would be the main reason for going tubeless?

    I'm sure it's a simple answer, but this noob needs some help.

    Advantage : To be progressive. Flip side: How have tubes failed you? The only advantage I know of with tubeless over tubes w/sealant is that you can run lower tire pressures without worrying about pinch flats. Not impressed/ Don't care about tubeless.
  • 12-24-2012
    wmac
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    Advantage : To be progressive.

    ?????

    What does that mean?
  • 12-24-2012
    RollingAround
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    ?????

    What does that mean?




    I think it means to try something different and make the sport progress technology wise... just "the latest thing"

    just a guess.
  • 12-24-2012
    RollingAround
    I think fo rme it easier to just swap blown tubes than messing with sealing tubless...I could be wrong. Side the trail tire changing....seems it would be more difficult tubless...don't know.
  • 12-24-2012
    osokolo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RollingAround View Post
    I think fo rme it easier to just swap blown tubes than messing with sealing tubless...I could be wrong. Side the trail tire changing....seems it would be more difficult tubless...don't know.

    it is not more difficult at all. The only thing you have to do extra is to remove the tubeless valve - if you flat tubeless.

    honestly, i can not remember the last time i flatted on my tubeless tires. i have been using them for the last 5 years at least.

    the beauty of tubeless is not just lower pressure without risk of pinch flats and better traction/speed (IMHO worth switching for this single reason) but also very few and far in between flats.
  • 12-24-2012
    wmac
    The only time I have been with anyone with tubeless who considered putting a tube in was when a buddy cut a tire and it lowered the pressure to 10psi before the sealant filled the hole. He decided to just ride it out.
  • 12-24-2012
    CSC
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    The only time I have been with anyone with tubeless who considered putting a tube in was when a buddy cut a tire and it lowered the pressure to 10psi before the sealant filled the hole. He decided to just ride it out.

    10 psi would be pretty squirrely, though maybe it isn't when tubeless.
  • 12-24-2012
    osokolo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CSC View Post
    10 psi would be pretty squirrely, though maybe it isn't when tubeless.

    it is still squirrely - but it will take you out and back to the car, or home, most likely...
  • 12-24-2012
    wmac
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    it is still squirrely - but it will take you out and back to the car, or home, most likely...

    Yep. He had a cartridge, but saved it in case he needed to put a tube in. Wound up making it the three miles back to the car without slowing us down all that much.
  • 12-24-2012
    CSC
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Yep. He had a cartridge, but saved it in case he needed to put a tube in. Wound up making it the three miles back to the car without slowing us down all that much.

    I can understand 3 miles...some of the rides I hear about are many, many more miles one way, and I personally would probably use the tube and cartridge if I had more than 5 miles to go. Just not worth wrecking a rim or worse. But it's a good testament to tubeless tech :thumbsup:
  • 12-24-2012
    wmac
    Yeah, the tire was cut pretty bad. We were concerned about putting a tube in and then something getting up in the cut and puncturing the tube or the tube bubbling out of the cut and getting cut/punctured.

    We were pretty amazed that it all held together without damaging the rim. He later cleaned the tire, put a patch on the inside and rode them the rest of the season.
  • 12-25-2012
    Saul Lumikko
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    The only advantage I know of with tubeless over tubes w/sealant is that you can run lower tire pressures without worrying about pinch flats.

    - lower weight
    - lower rolling resistance
    - (as you mentioned) significantly reduced risk of pinch flats

    To me those points are nothing to dismiss. Even though I don't race much, I enjoy riding a bike that moves forward with less effort.
  • 12-25-2012
    tehninjo0
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    - lower weight
    - lower rolling resistance
    - (as you mentioned) significantly reduced risk of pinch flats

    To me those points are nothing to dismiss. Even though I don't race much, I enjoy riding a bike that moves forward with less effort.

    The weight is usually the same or greater with tubeless tire setups because the sealant and/or modified sidewall construction negate any weight savings from getting rid of the tube.

    Tubeless setups do not affect roll resistance, all else equal. Roll resistance is determined by tread pattern, tire width, and tire pressure. The reduced pressure that tubeless setups allow for results in a wider tread thus tubeless setups actually tend to increase rolling resistance. The reason pedaling feels easier is that the lower pressure results in better traction which (over)compensates for the increase in roll resistance.
  • 12-25-2012
    wmac
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tehninjo0 View Post
    The weight is usually the same or greater with tubeless tire setups because the sealant and/or modified sidewall construction negate any weight savings from getting rid of the tube.

    Tubeless setups do not affect roll resistance, all else equal. Roll resistance is determined by tread pattern, tire width, and tire pressure. The reduced pressure that tubeless setups allow for results in a wider tread thus tubeless setups actually tend to increase rolling resistance. The reason pedaling feels easier is that the lower pressure results in better traction which (over)compensates for the increase in roll resistance.

    Source?
  • 12-25-2012
    Saul Lumikko
    Tehninjo0, if you read carefully, you'll notice that johnluke compared tubes with sealant to tubeless. When both setups have sealant, it's the tube vs. valve and tape. Tubes that light don't exist.

    As for rolling resistance, having a tube deflect along with the tire does increase rolling resistance. It's another question whether it's really that noticeable, but the difference is a fact. Dropping the pressure makes the contact patch longer and wider, and it's actually the length that increases rolling resistance, but if you compare setups at different pressures and then claim tubeless equals higher resistance, it sounds like you own shares in tube manufacturing.
  • 12-25-2012
    thomllama
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tehninjo0 View Post
    The weight is usually the same or greater with tubeless tire setups because the sealant and/or modified sidewall construction negate any weight savings from getting rid of the tube.

    Tubeless setups do not affect roll resistance, all else equal. Roll resistance is determined by tread pattern, tire width, and tire pressure. The reduced pressure that tubeless setups allow for results in a wider tread thus tubeless setups actually tend to increase rolling resistance. The reason pedaling feels easier is that the lower pressure results in better traction which (over)compensates for the increase in roll resistance.

    you obviously never used Tubeless, or at least a decent setup...

    Tubeless is WAY lighter, roll resistance is lowered do to less material flex, and yes the tube is material and adds to the resistance, just like layers in plywood or cardboard..
    if you go full UST, ya, the weight savings is lowered if any, but most people don't bother as modern materials make it so you don't "need" them.

    Not getting flats is enough for me,.. and yes I used to use tubes with sealant but they were ridiculously heavy and still gave me slow leak flats quite often. tubeless is FAR from perfect, but it's far better than tubes, at least on the sharp New England rock walls and the briars everywhere :)
  • 12-28-2012
    Covert_Dom
    I was dubious for yrs, made the switch to UST and never looked back, cheaper than replacing tubes every other run that's for sure

    Rolling speed better, less flats, win win
  • 12-28-2012
    Pedalthatbike
    Tubeless rocks, I made the switch, no flats. And as stated before, mucho mas traction. Keep the tubes away from this guy
  • 01-21-2013
    merlinm
    I'm switching to tubeless, or at least i'm going to try. For me it has nothing to do with rolling resistance or pinch flats, but protection from thorns. In this area of texas we have thorns of all shape and size and I'm replacing tubes just about every ride. I think partly this is due to my tires (nanoraptors) but I have to do something.

    I've tried slime tubes and they work ok but I find them annoying...why?
    * heavy
    * slime gets into the valve making it very hard to air up
    * slime dries out too

    Doing all the research, I think the best bet today is non-ust factory rims with the split tube method. My current tires are worn out, so all that remains is: which ones to buy? The trails around here are mostly clay hardpack (dry weather only riding) and the nanos seem like the ideal tire...should I go with them again or with something with a stiffer sidewall? My ideal tire is cheap, low rolling resistance, light, and wont blow out...traction is secondary concern.
  • 01-22-2013
    Enduro14
    If you go tubeless remember that you can't let your bike sit for a long period of time.
  • 01-22-2013
    cbd5600
    I recently converted to tubeless and overall I saved a little over half a pound of weight.
  • 01-22-2013
    The OLE Bagger
    i weigh 270 so i need tubes.
  • 01-22-2013
    merlinm
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cbd5600 View Post
    I recently converted to tubeless and overall I saved a little over half a pound of weight.

    what tires/rims? I'm going ghetto, and I refuse to pay for overprice UST stuff. Ideally, I'd like to keep the same tire (either wtb nano, or kenda sb8). This is my 'fast rolling' bike -- for AM rides I have a different bike with heavier tires.
  • 01-22-2013
    cbd5600
    Arch's with Hutchinson cobra's. I was running standard (not lightweight) tubes.
  • 01-25-2013
    backalleybikes
    More durable, lighter weight, feels great.
  • 01-26-2013
    desertred
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    Advantage : To be progressive. Flip side: How have tubes failed you? The only advantage I know of with tubeless over tubes w/sealant is that you can run lower tire pressures without worrying about pinch flats. Not impressed/ Don't care about tubeless.

    I recently moved to tubeless on my full slushy after riding slime type tubes from a variety of manufacturers for many years. I don't what it is, but the tubes have been using recently have failed to seal even the smallest pin type holes. I got a flat using a brand new slime tube on the first ride after installation from a thorn type of puncture - a hole that in previous times would have sealed right up. I used to be able to pull 15 goatheads out of tire equipped with a slime tube with no discernible loss of pressure. Not any more. This is what finally pushed my to give tubeless a try. So far so good.