1. The most important thing about buying a new bike is to make sure it fits. The only way you'll know if the bike is right for you is to size up the bike and make sure that the bike's geometry matches your body's geometry. Ask questions and do some research.
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2. If possible, try to find a shop that will let you demo the bike on real dirt. Five minutes in a parking lot won't cut it. You wouldn't buy a car without a real world test drive, and a bike should be no different.
3. Don't belive the hype. Just because your favorite rider or best friend rides a certain bike, that doesn't mean that's the best one for you. Have an open mind and be realistic about your needs and ability.
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  1. #1
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    Upgrading Wheels and Brakes

    Hello Everyone

    I have a Surly Karate Monkey, not sure what year but it is a brown color, that I use as my daily commuter. I bought the bike about 3 years ago and it is a pretty standard SS build that the previous owner did. It is rolling on Surly hubs, Mavic 29" wheels, Continental Comfort Contact slick tires, and Avid rim brakes. I am looking to upgrade the brakes and wheels and wanted to see if it is going to be a crazy endeavor that might not be worth it ie: should I just get another bike. I should say that I usually ride on the road but am looking to start trail riding in the near future and hope this bike can serve both purposes with the change. Also the conversion was sparked by the fact that I need new tires and brake pads so I was just curious if I should put the money to use in upgrading instead of replacing.

    It does have disc break mounts so that I think is a good sign (I do not know too much about bicycles, well at least the mechanics of them).

    From doing some cursory initial research it looks as though I will need front and rear discs and calipers, new hubs, new cables, and possibly new wheels and tires (probably definitely new tires as mine are about shot and are road tires anyways). I really like the Surly Rabbit Hole wheels and Knard tires but that might be a big financial undertaking with the rest of the parts. I have also seen some other semi-fat wheels but again it might be too much.

    So my question is am I missing any parts from the above list? Also how much money would i have to spend to do the conversion (I am going to try and do it myself). I know this is an open ended question but just on average what would a decent conversion cost? I do not want/need the best of the best of with regards to parts but definitely want something that is going to last. I also probably will not be doing any crazy technical riding, mostly along trails that are relatively well maintained.

    Thanks so much for any help/direction

  2. #2
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    I'll pre-qualify my response by letting you know that I have that same frame and like it a lot, so my answer may be somewhat biased.

    If your current hubs have rotor mounts you could use those, otherwise I'm looking at a pair of Mavic rims with SLX hubs advertised in the sidebar right now on sale @ $189 and I think that's about as low as you can reasonably go. SLX hydros will set you back about another $200 (Deores maybe a bit less), some mechanicals can be had cheaper but personally I don't think the savings are worth it. Add another $50-$100 or so for tires plus a few more bucks for this. that, and the other thing and you're probably going to end up spending at least $500.

    If the frame is a good fit and you're pretty sure you'll be sticking with SS off-road then I think that's a good deal, you won't get much starting from scratch for that amount. Also, if your bike has the original ridged fork you need to consider whether or not that will work for you off-road. You might want to switch the tires now and give it a go on the trails for awhile as-is to see how it works for you if you haven't already before deciding to fully commit.

  3. #3
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    get some decent wheels with disc rotor abilities and some Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes. you can use your old levers and BB7s are easy to set up.

    replacing just your hub will probably cost more than buying a new set of wheels because you will need new spokes, new hubs, and pay someone to lace them up. if they rims have a lot of miles on them, they sidewalls might be worn out anyways. I am a big fan of Stan's Arch EX wheels. I recommend you get a wheel that has a standard freehub on it so you have the option of butting a cassette and a rear derailleur on it in case you decide that riding off-road on a singlespeed is not as fun. if you do that, get a cog with a wide base (Surly makes these) and spacers. if you get a cassette, get an expensive one with a wide carrier like an XT cassette.

    tubeless is the way to go for off-road riding. tire choices are just about limitless

    go to the Surly forum and look at the "KM build" thread to get some more ideas.

  4. #4
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    I like my hydraulic disc brakes better than mechanicals. That's really a matter of what you want to spend.

    Price your whole package before you get started. Upgrading everything on a bike is an expensive way to buy a mid-range bike. However, especially if you just want a couple things, it also gives you the ability to skip incremental upgrades and go straight to the good stuff. Bike companies have a thing for stupid wheels lately, for example.
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  5. #5
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    Thanks for all the responses so far. I should probably quantify my mountain time as sandy/washy trails. I live in Tucson and even though I know it has a lot more to offer the further you get up the mountains I am no where near that point in thinking that I should be riding those crazy trails. Instead my real mountain time is spent running those said trails on a daily basis. When I see the cyclists up there I think they are crazy and have no aspirations to reach that standard of riding. I want to use the bike as a cross trainer for my running that is capable of riding through non-technical trails as well as serving the purpose of delivering me to school everyday. Since my tires and brake pads are in need of replacement I thought now is the perfect time to think about an upgrade. On the other hand since I am not looking at attacking anything too hardcore maybe some knobby tires and keeping the rim brakes is the way to go. Another thought is the shinier the bike the more it might be a target for thieves which are notorious on our campus. In fact last year someone tried to cut through my lock.

    I guess this is a road that can lead in so many directions which of course all boil down to money that I am willing to spend and the perceived benefits of that said money. I think that the quote at the bottom of AndrwSwitch's thread is perfect about not buying but riding upgrades. Functionally maybe my bike is still perfect and I am just intrigued by the allure of having an awesome looking mountain bike, when in reality I will probably spend about 10% of my time on it on actual trails.

  6. #6
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    Re: Upgrading Wheels and Brakes

    You could just get a set of knobbies and some brake pads. I like Kool Stop salmon. Wear parts are made to be replaced easily, though not always cheaply. Replacing the wheels or the brake system is a much bigger step and makes a lot less of a difference than nice tires.

    Don't be so quick to rule out the more interesting trails. As with any other skill-based sport, try something that's just a little bit of a stretch for you, and go from there.
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  7. #7
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    So on that note, does anyone have any suggestions on a good tire that would be good on both asphalt and sandy trails? I was thinking GEAX Saguaro, but maybe that is because I live in a city surrounded by Saguaro cacti.

    I agree that maybe replacing all that other jazz might probably be a big step up, and if I do take to the trails maybe the money is better saved and spent on a new dedicated mountain bike. As an amateur I am sure I would not be able to tell that much of a difference in terms of performance for my kind of riding. My sister is a professional tri athlete and she is always at the margins so she definitely needs the latest and greatest as I have found that her bikes, equipment, etc... actually make a difference. When we were both home for the holidays she brought her fancy tri/time trial bike home to train with. I got on it and thought I was going 100 mph with just a few pedal strokes. But she needs it to keep up with everyone else and I could not imagine paying 3x what my car cost for a bicycle. I on the other hand am not racing anyone but the clock and the start of classes.

  8. #8
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    Schwalbe Racing Ralph. It's a low-profile knobby, but it's a fully knob, none of that semislick stupidity. The knobs in the center are pretty densely spaced, which should help their wear life in your use. You can go a little chunkier on the front if you like. There's much less power transmission going on there - only when you brake - so they wear a lot slower. You've probably already noticed that. There was another tire I used for a while, the Maxxis Crossmark. Not very forgiving, but quick and with a closely spaced center ridge. I think the Racing Ralph is a better tire, though.

    For disclaimer, my jersey has a Schwalbe logo on the back of it somewhere. So does my hardtail.

    If you get into it more, there's nothing wrong with having a mountain bike with a more dedicated trail setup. They're a lot of fun.
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  9. #9
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    I highly doubt you could fit Knards on Rabbit Hole rims in a KM. Get a Krampus or ECR if that's what you want.

    Keep in mind, Shimano sells is disc brakes without rotors included. You have to buy them separately. I spent a hair over $300 on an SLX hydro brakset with new rotors and adapters recently. I like Avid BB7's, too. I have them on two bikes in my house. But Shimano hydros on the other two. Shimano is doing outstanding work on their hydros lately. The redesigned Deores should be pretty nice for a budget hydro.

    You will definitely need wheels if your hubs are not disc compatible. Make sure you know what a Centerlock rotor mount looks like. It does not add much to a hub, so it can be easy to miss if you don't know what to look for. I really do like Centerlock hubs, too. I have two bikes in my house with Centerlock hubs. They're really easy to install/remove a rotor. I was removing a 6 bolt rotor that had been on the bike for almost 11 years recently, and stripped out one of the torx bolt heads trying to remove it. It made me sweat a little, but I got it out by using my dremel to cut a slot in the bolt head and using a big common screwdriver. Shouldn't have any of that funny business with Centerlock hubs.

    Definitely price it all out before you go buying parts. Make sure you add some cushion for shipping, small parts, tools, or whatever else you might need.

  10. #10
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    I don't think I would spend that much money on Schwalbe MTB tires for a bike that is used primarily for commuting. JMHO. The Geax would be on my list. They are decent enough in the dirt, they wear well, and are relatively economical. Crossmark is not bad if you can get them for a decent price.

    Others I like for your purpose would be Specialized Captain, Specialized Fast Trak, Kenda Karma L3R, Kenda Honey Badger (DTC), Kenda Slant Six, Bontrager XR1 and XR2. There are also companies like Duro and Vee Rubber that offer economically priced tires that would suit your purposes just fine. I would look for tires that cost no more than $35 to $40max, and that have dual (or even triple) tread compounds so they will put more durable rubber in the center of the tread so they will wear well when commuting. Also, many very good tires are made in a 'sport' version that may have a wire bead instead of kevlar, and those will be cheaper (but heavier).

    I would also look for a front tire that is at least 2.2" up to 2.4" wide so it will stay up higher in the sand. You can go narrower on the back if you like, but you could go wide there too.

    As for brakes, BB7's would be an economical and easy to maintain choice as they are a mechanical caliper. you could use your existing brake levers for the BB7's, but you would also need a cable and housing kit to install them. That said, by the time you purchase the BB7's and the cable housing kit, you're getting close to what you can find some decent hydraulic discs for. Just be VERY aware of the hose length being offered and know how much you'll need. If you have to cut the hoses, that will cost you time and/or money as you'll need to bleed them. If you need longer hoses, that will cost you for the hoses and the bleed.

    If you find some good deals, you can ask here and these good folks will generally steer you right.

    As long as you're mostly commuting and occasionally trail riding, your stock wheels should be fine unless you need disc hubs, or you just have money burning a hole in your pocket (but since you're a student, I imagine that isn't the case).

  11. #11
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    I'm running the Geax Saguaro TNT on Stan's Crest wheels. I really like them for trails but I can't say how good they would be on asphalt as I don't ride it much at all. I also run the BB7 brakes and have no desire to move to hydros. The BB7s stop me with authority and they are pretty reasonable in price. As stated you can use your current levers and they come with the rotors but you will need cable, housing and the tools and ability to cut and install the housing and cables unless you are going to get a bike shop to install them for you. With everyones desire to have hydro brakes I would think you could find some mechanical disc brakes second hand real cheap. You could probably also find some decent wheels someone has pulled off. That could help your budget a lot. You might check with a local bike shop and just see what they have laying around.

  12. #12
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    Outside Outfitters has the RaRa for $35. But it's not a bad point -

    OP, see if your school has a bike co-op or supports a used bike shop nearby. A lot of colleges do. They're great places to keep a bike rolling for cheap. Think $5-$15 per tire cheap.
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  13. #13
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    wow this has been a wealth of knowledge in such short number of responses, thanks to everyone for bestowing all of it to me.

    what about this deal for wheels?

    50mm UMA 29er Surly Singlespeed Wheelset - Buy and Sell and Review Mountain Bikes and Accessories

    I figure I can offset costs by selling my old stuff as well.

  14. #14
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    They'd probably work. The wider rim will change tire profiles on you, so finding how big you can go on that frame might take some trial-and-error. To be honest, though, unless you're absolutely dead set on SS, I prefer the versatility of using a regular freehub with a wide base cog and spacer kit for SS. Especially on a versatile frame that can be ridden either geared or SS.

    You don't really need a rim that wide. Especially since your background is daily commuting and you want to dabble in mtb. With wide rims like that, you lose the capability of even using a wider commute tire in the 35-45mm range. You would be fine with a rim half as wide and still be able to run big 2.4" tires without any trouble, and go back to narrower commute tires if you wanted. Something like that would certainly be lighter than the wheelset you posted.

    Furthermore, depending on what's on the bike now, you may or may not get much for it. Not many people are wanting to put rim brakes on a bike, so used ones won't get you very much.

  15. #15
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    "Normal" width mountain bike tires may sit pretty oddly on those. And, if I was thinking about super-sized tires, I'd be asking about clearance in my frame first.

    How much do you want to spend? You don't have to spend $350...
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrwSwitch View Post
    And, if I was thinking about super-sized tires, I'd be asking about clearance in my frame first.
    That's a good point. You need to know how much clearance you have between the canti brake studs. The rim will have to fit between those just to get it mounted. Then when you mount a tire, you'll want it to be a little wider than the rim so it doesn't blow off, which will present additional clearance concerns.

  17. #17
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    thanks again for the responses.

    I believe from my research that I can run a 29+ Surly tire up front and a 2.4 on the rear, though my Surly does have a "fatties fit fine" sticker on it so I do not know that that means. right now I have 29" wheels which I believe are 2.1. I will have to look into the clearance issue tonight and see what others have said. the decisions are endless so maybe I just stick with what I have until I "really" need to make a change because my bike is not doing what I need it to do. as of now it still delivers me to campus each day with no major headaches which is really what it should be all about.

    more questions will probably follow

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrettsmith View Post
    the decisions are endless so maybe I just stick with what I have until I "really" need to make a change because my bike is not doing what I need it to do. as of now it still delivers me to campus each day with no major headaches which is really what it should be all about.
    Quoted for truth (QFT).

    As much as I enjoy helping to spend other peoples money, or at least offering my $0.02 on how I think they should spend it, I think this is a prudent path for the time being.

  19. #19
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    Thanks jeffj.

    On a whim and the advice from some other posters on this thread I took the opportunity to visit a bike shop by campus yesterday to try to gain some further input about my situation. The guy helping me was very patient with my hair brained questions and very matter of fact about what I might need to do to the KM to make it trail worthy for our local trails. His biggest point was that I, at the least, would probably need to put a suspension fork on the front along with the disc brakes, wheels, and tires. The suspension he said would probably make the biggest difference as far as riding the bike on trails as having a full rigid setup would probably be less than enjoyable. Additionally he said I should consider adding gears, at least on the rear to give the bike more versatility. So basically a can of worms has been opened. The good thing about the whole visit was his insistence that these upgrades should be pretty reasonable if I am smart and find good used parts, in other words he was not trying to sell me the latest and greatest off the shelf. He said that he would not want to sell me new parts because it could get too costly and would make getting a new bike seem more reasonable. So now I am thinking about what he said and might just try to find the used parts and go from there.

  20. #20
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    careful about taking his comments at face value. There are lots of folks that ride fully rigid singlespeeds (fixies even) on the trails.

    What is the terrain like where you live? What is the gearing on the bike now? I rode a SS commute bike for awhile, and the gearing was in no way appropriate for the trails, but most of the trails where I live can be done on a SS easily enough with enough care to select the right gearing for you. That said, I prefer having gears. SS, for me, is usually a nice intermediate step (cheap) when building a bike. I've built and ridden singlespeed bikes a couple of times in my life (for a couple of years each time) and they've been perfectly capable bikes. Just not as enjoyable for me.

    I personally would like to see more companies offer production rigid singlespeed mountain bikes with respectable components because I think they make very good beginner bikes in many cases. Not every place would be enjoyable for a beginner to ride such a bike, but with suitably lower gearing, they'd be good for the general-ride-around-and-occasional-easy-trail crowd to get a better bike at a price point, because a lot of those folks never shift, anyway, and I oftentimes see them pushing enormous gears besides.

    Still, I'm quite curious what wheels (especially the rims) you have on your KM right now. You might just be able to toss on a mtb tire and go with what you have now until you've saved a little money for the disc wheels and brakes that you want, and take some time to find just the right deals to make you happy. There are a lot more rim widths available these days than there used to be, but a 20-25mm rim should be perfectly serviceable for you, and versatile enough to change tires to a more commuter-oriented tire if/when you want.

    Regarding the shop employee's suggestion for suspension more specifically, good suspension ain't cheap. Double your budget, at least, to make that change. Not that it's not an option, but you don't want to buy cheap boatanchor suspension forks. Bigger tires give you a little bit of suspension, anyway, and that's what I'd recommend for budget suspension for a rigid bike. 2.4 tires minimum would be what I'd look for. Surly's 'fff-fatties fit fine' logo/slogan is a little outdated these days. They're not necessarily talking about fat bike tires, more than 3" wide. Basically when they introduced that idea, it could be very tough to fit anything wider than a 2.2 in a lot of bikes, and a lot of people ran 1.9 and 2.0 width tires for xc use. VERY few people do that anymore, and you see a lot of people using 2.4" tires on XC bikes. Especially people riding rigid bikes.

  21. #21
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    I've done some off-road riding rigid too. I think a nice fork actually doesn't make as much of a difference as the tires. Really, nothing makes as much of a difference as the tires. I haven't done singlespeed, but one of these days I'll try it. I'm kind of tempted to convert my old Hardrock...

    I'm old enough to have been mountain biking before disc brakes. I still had a lot of fun with it. If I hadn't, I would probably not have been motivated to buy my Hardrock. Actually, I had a pretty awful rear tire on that bike. We do dumb things in college.

    Bottom line: knobby tires and go. The other stuff is fun and can make things easier or more comfortable, but "need" is way too strong a word.
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  22. #22
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    who need suspension when you can put 3" wide tires on your karate monkey?

    Pics of Rabbit Hole and/or Knard on non-Krampus frame

    I suggest you just put some fat knobbies on your KM and gear it down to something like 32/18 or 32/20 and ride trails on it. 32/20 fits PERFECTLY in my KM frame with the axle slid all the way forward in the dropouts. you don't "need" disc brakes.

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    Devils advocate: if your fork and frame have the posts for disc brakes, how about adding a set of mechanical disc (in addition to your rim brakes) and buy a disc wheelset with a SS cog on it. set up your bike to use rim brakes on commuter tires, and disc on some wider mtb tires. When you want to swap, you'd just need to swap wheels and swap brake cables at the levers.

    Like I said, playing devils advocate here. A dedicated mountain bike would probably be better in almost all scenarios. Also, I'm not sure, but a disc caliper may interfer with the spokes on a rim brake hub.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I suggest you just ...
    better idea: get some tires that roll well on pavement in a 29x2.1 size or so. pump them up to 50 psi for road riding, then drop them to <30 for trails.

    what is the current gear ratio on your current setup? if you're not sure, just count the number of teeth on your front chainring and the number of teeth on your rear hub. post those numbers here for the forum nerds to analyze.

    does your bike have a single-speed freewheel or a cassette with a single cog and spacers? post a photo of your rear hub if you're not sure.

    I ask these two questions because you might have the option of setting up a single two-speed drivetrain or "dingle speed." this is a bike with two gears that are changed manually. you can possibly leave one cog on your front chainring and put two cogs on the back- a larger, easier cog for trails and a smaller, harder cog for street use. you might have to put two removeable "master links" in your chain so that you can shorten the chain for the smaller cog, but changing your bike from trail to street might easy enough this way that it will take less than ten minutes.

  25. #25
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    Hello Everyone

    Thanks again for all the great insight.

    I took a photo of my bike today and have written down all the pertinent information, though I might get some of the specifics wrong so please feel free to correct me.

    Surly Karate Monkey:
    Headset: King Threadless
    Handlebars: Bontrager Crowbar
    Brake Handles: Paul
    Wheels: 29" Mavic A719 (28-37mm, not sure if that is important)
    Hubs: Surly non-disc
    Crank: Shimano Hollow Tech
    Chainset (front sproket?): Race Face 34T with a plate over it
    BB: not sure
    Brakes: Avid 7 Single Digit
    Rear Cog: White Industries 18T
    Pedals: Eastern

    The wheels are laced in a weird cross through snowflake type pattern that the previous owner did, he was really proud of them so I have just left them as is. I have had plenty of people ask he how I did it and I have to tell them I have no idea, funny. Also everything on the bike that I listed above was down by the previous owner, I have not done anything but add the bag under the seat and have changed the tubes a few times.

    Hopefully this gives everyone some more insight.

    And I agree that people might not need suspension, the guy I bought it from actually used to ride it on the trails here as a fixed gear bike, there is a fixed cog on the other side of the rear wheel. I run the trails here in Tucson everyday and would say that from a runners standpoint they are pretty rocky and technical, at least the ones that I run. Again this is coming from someone who runs and not rides them, though I do see mountain bikers on them on occasion but their bikes look crazy and futuristic.

    Please keep the comments coming and again thanks for providing me with so much information.

    Upgrading Wheels and Brakes-img_3207_2.jpg

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