Results 1 to 34 of 34

Thread: One year later,

  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    35

    One year later,

    Its been just over a year since I bought my first bike, 29er hardtail. Im 58 and ride 2 to 3 times a week, around 5 to 20 miles a ride. At first, it was very very hard, and now its still hard but I can do it without stopping. But, the hardtail is beating me up the longer Im on the bike. Plus, after about 2 hours, my arms,especially my hands are hurting and I have a tremendous pain between my shoulders.
    I have a 90mm stem with 7 degree rise, my bars are 660 wide with 8 degree backsweep and 7 degree upsweep.
    So I have two questions.
    First pertains to the bars, as I am thinking of going to carbon bars, I was thinking of a shorter stem with a rise but with flat bars with a backsweep. What do you think???
    My next question, pertains to purchase of another bike with full suspension, but suspension for just xc type riding.
    Kinda had my eye on a Rip niner, but dunno if I care for all the comments on Niners low quality paint and how it holds up (Im sorry, I am vain, I care about what I have and how it looks). The second was a Salsa Spearfish. But Im open to other ideas.
    I may get in a race, I dont expect to win, I just love to ride, no. I LOVE TO RIDE my bike.
    I wish I had time to work out but my work life will not allow it. Gotta pay the bills. Taxes and insurance isnt cheap.
    This is a great forum, come here all the time,,just wanted to say thanks for the forum also.
    Possum

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: CarolinaLL6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    960
    A couple of things. Two ways to approach this, stem or bars but only do one at a time.

    As you shorten your bar you bring your arms closer together and this raises your head and shoulders. This may be enough to relieve you of the pain between your shoulder blades and might take enough weight off your hands to do the same for them. I went to carbon bars also for wee bit more flex in them.

    Or do the shorter stem, maybe with more of a rise (cheaper than bars) and see if it helps.

    I have similar issues and it makes fine tuning more difficult. My Phys. Therapist advised me neck and or shoulder pain is very much caused by how bent over one is and it put a lot of strain on the neck and upper shoulders. He told me he knows a few roadies that had to stop riding because of this. He said as a mtb rider my posture can be more upright and we change position more than roadies do.

  3. #3
    empty beer member
    Reputation: WrecklessREX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    290
    Is it possible that you aren't stretched out enough, causing your shoulder blades to compress in back? I was having hand and arm numbness, flipping the stem down and dropping it 10mm fixed my issues. Doing this was the complete opposite of what everyone told would help but it worked for me.

    Also, on my rigid bike I added bars with more backsweep and that helped my comfort tremendously. I switched from standard riser bars to a flat 17 degree salsa pro moto and used a 10mm longer stem.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Good stuff "CarolinaLL6". Carbon bars will soak up some of the vibration for sure. Shortening any type bars will also reduce the amount of vibration they soak up. The more the bars flex, the more this will matter.
    Whether you go shorter or taller with your stem, it'll shorten your reach and put you more upright. Maybe just add some spacers under your stem to get it higher?

    Might wanna consider a Thudbuster seatpost so you can avoid the pedaling bob of a FS but get some reduced shock and vibration to the butt.

    Another thing I'll throw out there is...If you go with a bigger, taller, more volume tire up front, and a smaller 1 in the rear, that'll also make your riding position more upright some, and the added volume up front will also reduce vibration. Sometimes a little thing like running a few psi lower can make all the difference.
    Round and round we go

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    12,072
    Quote Originally Posted by Possum View Post
    Its been just over a year since I bought my first bike, 29er hardtail. Im 58 and ride 2 to 3 times a week, around 5 to 20 miles a ride. At first, it was very very hard, and now its still hard but I can do it without stopping. But, the hardtail is beating me up the longer Im on the bike. Plus, after about 2 hours, my arms,especially my hands are hurting and I have a tremendous pain between my shoulders.
    I have a 90mm stem with 7 degree rise, my bars are 660 wide with 8 degree backsweep and 7 degree upsweep.
    So I have two questions.
    First pertains to the bars, as I am thinking of going to carbon bars, I was thinking of a shorter stem with a rise but with flat bars with a backsweep. What do you think???
    My next question, pertains to purchase of another bike with full suspension, but suspension for just xc type riding.
    Kinda had my eye on a Rip niner, but dunno if I care for all the comments on Niners low quality paint and how it holds up (Im sorry, I am vain, I care about what I have and how it looks). The second was a Salsa Spearfish. But Im open to other ideas.
    I may get in a race, I dont expect to win, I just love to ride, no. I LOVE TO RIDE my bike.
    I wish I had time to work out but my work life will not allow it. Gotta pay the bills. Taxes and insurance isnt cheap.
    This is a great forum, come here all the time,,just wanted to say thanks for the forum also.
    Possum
    Old guys like full suspension bikes...

    Go demo some at your LBSs.....take em out for a really good ride...around here if you break it you buy it...but the will let you take them to the mountains.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    2,135
    Yea I love my FS for just putting around town in lol...rides so nice :-)

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    35
    WrecklessREX did remind me of something I forgot to add in my post. Last year after about 2 months of riding, I was having numbness in my hands. Several locals advised me to get new grips, tho one told me to swap my stem upside down and maybe take the spacer out from under it, lowering my handlebar. I did that and it did help. But now as I am able to ride for longer periods without stopping, I am having this pain/numbness in my hands but pain inbetween my shoulders.
    CarolinaLL6, this same guy recommended shortening my bars but also recommended trying out carbon bars, to help a bit with the bumps.
    You guys think I should stick with my current stem and get a carbon bar, just shorten it a bit from where I am at now with my current bar??
    IF so, what bar do you recommend and should it be flat with some sweep or one with some rise??
    Thanks,
    John
    PS jeffscott,
    I have to go miles away for a bike dealer. I read this forum and others many many times late last winter,early spring before I decided on my first mountain bike,lol. Thats why I added the part about a full suspension bike for xc riding, to get some ideas from others that have done the same. I dont consider myself old, but I believe I feel it out on the trail,lol. But I have to say it again, I do love to ride my bike. I find myself missing Sunday football for a good ride,lol.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Hmm, I never heard of and it doesn't make sense to me that lowering the bars would help with hand numbness since it puts more weight on them, but the better grips could help. Maybe just flip the stem back up right and/or put the spacer back and see, espacially sinse it's free.
    Round and round we go

  9. #9
    Picture Unrelated
    Reputation: zebrahum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    5,123
    Quote Originally Posted by Possum View Post
    WrecklessREX did remind me of something I forgot to add in my post. Last year after about 2 months of riding, I was having numbness in my hands. Several locals advised me to get new grips, tho one told me to swap my stem upside down and maybe take the spacer out from under it, lowering my handlebar. I did that and it did help. But now as I am able to ride for longer periods without stopping, I am having this pain/numbness in my hands but pain inbetween my shoulders.
    CarolinaLL6, this same guy recommended shortening my bars but also recommended trying out carbon bars, to help a bit with the bumps.
    You guys think I should stick with my current stem and get a carbon bar, just shorten it a bit from where I am at now with my current bar??
    IF so, what bar do you recommend and should it be flat with some sweep or one with some rise??
    Thanks,
    John
    PS jeffscott,
    I have to go miles away for a bike dealer. I read this forum and others many many times late last winter,early spring before I decided on my first mountain bike,lol. Thats why I added the part about a full suspension bike for xc riding, to get some ideas from others that have done the same. I dont consider myself old, but I believe I feel it out on the trail,lol. But I have to say it again, I do love to ride my bike. I find myself missing Sunday football for a good ride,lol.
    Sounds to me like you're getting advice to fix one of your problems but it's making the other one worse. The lower bars will cause you to put more weight on your hands which will make it more likely that they will get numb. I would suggest getting your stem back to upright and getting a wider bar to try and sort out your body position.

    Of course, everything everyone suggests is pure speculation because we can't watch you ride the bike. Numb hands is usually caused by too much weight on your hands, in order to fix it you need to raise your handlebar not lower it.
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,866
    Another thing people haven't mentioned is your hand size. My hands used to kill me with the stock small diameter grips.

    My hands felt better after switching to ODI Rogue lock ons. At the time they were one of the largest diameter grips I could find.
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  11. #11
    Picture Unrelated
    Reputation: zebrahum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    5,123
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Another thing people haven't mentioned is your hand size. My hands used to kill me with the stock small diameter grips.

    My hands felt better after switching to ODI Rogue lock ons. At the time they were one of the largest diameter grips I could find.
    Made me think of another issue that many people have and that's improper brake lever setup. If the levers aren't angled downward properly it could force your hands into a position that causes pressure on parts of the hand that aren't usually made for weight bearing. Brake levers should be positioned such that you do not have to bend your wrist to pull the brakes.
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    35
    Thanks for the help so far. Think I will flip the stem back up and move the spacer back to beneath the stem.
    Now, I do want to try a carbon bar. Can you help me out there, plus, Im guessing here, I would like to try those Odi grips but Ive read somewhere some of the carbon bars cant accomodate the end fastening grips. I do have larger hands.
    Thanks,
    Possum

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Bar ends can be a problem for carbon bars without a metal ring interted into the end, some come with. Lock-on grips won't be a problem and here's another vote for ODI Rogues.
    Round and round we go

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DavidR1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,696
    I would highly suggest finding a local bike store that will be able to properly fit you. You can guess at the right fit till your wallet has run dry, or get it done properly and know the fit is right. The problem with the prior is that you will always wonder if a tweak here and there may help. If you get fit, then you will know it isn't the bike and it may be a stretch or certain excersize you can do to help your comfort on the bike.
    CyclingCentralVa.org

  15. #15
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Hmm, I never heard of and it doesn't make sense to me that lowering the bars would help with hand numbness since it puts more weight on them, but the better grips could help. Maybe just flip the stem back up right and/or put the spacer back and see, espacially sinse it's free.


    Lowering the bars can force you to use more core muscles to support yourself which in turn takes pressure off of the hands. It does not work in all cases but has helped some riders relieve or reduce hand pain.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    ^ now I can see that, thanx.
    Round and round we go

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidR1 View Post
    I would highly suggest finding a local bike store that will be able to properly fit you. You can guess at the right fit till your wallet has run dry, or get it done properly and know the fit is right. The problem with the prior is that you will always wonder if a tweak here and there may help. If you get fit, then you will know it isn't the bike and it may be a stretch or certain excersize you can do to help your comfort on the bike.
    I can see your point and it's a good one, and someone who's clueless can gain lots from it, but no one can tell you what's comfy for you but can put you in a range of what's generally excepted. After any bike fit I've gotten I'v always tweaked things a bit after. Lotsa things you can adjust are free and if your in the ball bark of getting it right?
    Round and round we go

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    35
    DavidR1, exactly what I did when I bought this bike from a Specialized store. Two guys worked with me and one was leaning toward a large and the other a medium. The large,at the time I didnt feel comfortable on plus my jewels were almost touching the top tube. So they set me up with a medium, adjusted the seat,seat height, cockpit controls, etc.
    I just swapped the stem back around and the stem spacers. Rode the street for a bit. I just can feel a lot of presure on the palms of my hands, I rode with my fingers open, no grip and there is just a lot of presure on my palms,kind of like I stated earlier. Feels as if my hands and arms are holding most of my weight.
    Thanks,
    John

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Try to get into habit of holding the grips and not leaning on em. Also keep your wrists pretty straight and brake levers in a place so that your wrists are pretty straight when your fingers are on em. Keep your elbows bent a little to absorb impacts and that'll lower your position a bit too. Sometimes the for/aft or tilt of the saddle can make a big difference in how much leaning is going on. Make 1 adjustment at a time then ride so you don't loose your way.
    Round and round we go

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DavidR1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,696
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Try to get into habit of holding the grips and not leaning on em. .
    Honestly I find myself leaning on my grips quite a bit during endurance rides. It is a nice alternative on sections when the trail is less demanding.

    Unfortunately, not all bike fittings are created equal. Being new to the sport, you would have no way of knowing what store would be best at fitting. Some stores really specialize at fittings and can really do an in depth fitting. Not sure if you have ever gone through one of these theMeat, but I can tell you it is well worth the cost if you can find the right fitter and it is far more then someone telling you what is comfortable.
    CyclingCentralVa.org

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: CarolinaLL6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    960
    Reading through all of this I still think the OP needs to bring his head up. This will reduce the tilting back of his head. I suspect this is what he is doing because his upper torso is more forward than what his neck finds comfortable.

    For older riders, or ones with neck injuries from whiplash like myself, it means pain between the shoulder blades and lower back of the neck when the head is tilted too much. Despite the current trend to wider bars a more moderate one may be better so as not to spread out the arms and cause the upper body to drop further which will cause the head to have to tilt back causing more pain.

    I think a side benefit with a more upright position will be taking more of the weight off his hands. This very well could involve just mm of difference between pain and comfort.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,866
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidR1 View Post
    I would highly suggest finding a local bike store that will be able to properly fit you. You can guess at the right fit till your wallet has run dry, or get it done properly and know the fit is right. The problem with the prior is that you will always wonder if a tweak here and there may help. If you get fit, then you will know it isn't the bike and it may be a stretch or certain excersize you can do to help your comfort on the bike.
    Good point, I made the grip change on my own, but was lucky enough to get to know a LBS manager fairly well and he did a free fitting for me. He got me to change from the racer flat bars to a riser and shorter stem.

    Loved the change.
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    35
    CarolinaLL6,I swapped my stem back to upright position and place the spacers back beneath the stem. My bar has a 7 degree upsweep and is 660 mm wide.
    What do you suggest in shortening the bar,to what width? I think I will try this out before I try a shorter stem.
    Thanks,
    Possum

  24. #24
    Picture Unrelated
    Reputation: zebrahum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    5,123
    Quote Originally Posted by Possum View Post
    CarolinaLL6,I swapped my stem back to upright position and place the spacers back beneath the stem. My bar has a 7 degree upsweep and is 660 mm wide.
    What do you suggest in shortening the bar,to what width? I think I will try this out before I try a shorter stem.
    Thanks,
    Possum
    660 is not a wide bar, I certainly would not suggest narrowing it. Try moving your controls inward on your bars before you go cutting anything, I suspect you'll find your problem doesn't improve with narrow bars.
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Well, the bars being wider than your shoulders will cause your arm to spread out to reach the grips so ? The more your arms are spread the lower your position. Maybe the fliped stem AND the spacers is too much? Do you have riser bars? What do you mean 7 deg upsweep? Did you mean back sweep? Can you post a pic with you on bike?
    Round and round we go

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    35
    it has 7 degrees of rise, sorry. 8 degree backsweep.
    As I think about it, when I grip the bar, my hands are wider than my shoulders.
    Thanks,
    Possum

  27. #27
    Fat-tired Roadie
    Reputation: AndrwSwitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    18,453
    Sheldon Brown's site has a brilliant set of articles on cycling and pain.

    Bicycling and Pain

    Since you've got pain a couple places, and you've been able to move it around but not eliminate it, I think you'll find a lot of useful stuff in the article.

    My instinct is along the lines of zebra and Carolina - your bike is too reachy, or has too much drop, so you're dumping a lot of weight on your hands. It shouldn't be difficult for you to support your upper body without doing that. The problem is that sometimes when people go too short, they end up pushing their bars, kind of like they're trying to stretch their cockpits out for a little extra room, and create the same symptoms.

    You may still want to get a new bike and fancy handlebars. But I think you'll be happier if you get this one squared away first, with better adjustment and maybe a different stem. Get them out of the takeoff bin for $10 a pop until you find the right one. It can take some experimentation. It sounds like you have the means to buy a really nice stem, and the desire for a high-end bike. Fine - do it. Just make sure you buy the carbon bits once. (Well, I guess I don't mind if you Craig's List them to some kid with the legs to turn pro and not a lot of money to throw at his bike.)

    I was doing intervals earlier tonight because I hate myself. I found myself thinking something random in between - really singleminded racer types don't "get" any other kind of riding, and think other cyclists wish they were as much of racers too, cycle tourists and commuters don't believe anyone actually races, and recreational cyclists care more about what "real" cyclists think of them than anyone else in the world. Including "real" cyclists. The point to all of this rambling is that not every riding style works well with every approach to fitting the bike. Shop guys are usually shop guys because they're really into some branch of cycling, and they sometimes have a blind spot where other kinds of cyclist are concerned. So, educate yourself and keep talking to people to see if you can find the guy who fits Master's mountain bike racers.
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Yup, no sweat, sometimes rotating riser bars or bars with back sweep can get the grips a bit further/closer and change the angle of backsweep to a more likey place. Don't forget to re-adjust the levers so that your wrist stays pretty straight.
    Round and round we go

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    35
    AndrwSwitch, thank you for your response. I have thought about the cockpit and maybe instead of shortening, it needs lengthening. I have been to Sheldon Browns and several others trying to learn what I can.
    I can buy another bike, but I have a nice bike for now and dont intend of getting rid of it even if I purchase a full suspension bike. But just because I can, I will not just jump out and buy another one. First off I need to get this one right, so in the future I will know more about fittings. Second, Im pretty tight with my money,lol.
    I think Ive decided to shorten my bars a bit and with raising the bars back up also, will see what impact that will have on my fit.
    I have always wondered if I should have went with a large instead of a medium.
    Thanks,
    John

  30. #30
    Fat-tired Roadie
    Reputation: AndrwSwitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    18,453
    Don't cut your bars until you're sure. Narrow your grips and controls, and see what you think. I like mine relatively narrow, I think even narrower than yours, but it's not a common style lately.
    "Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: CarolinaLL6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    960
    A side-view pic of your bike could answer some questions. If not possible a description of where your bars are in relation to your seat in the horizontal. Higher, lower, same? Straight post seat, set-back? How's the seat positioned on the rails? Middle, forward, aft?

    If nothing above is out of whack then you may need to move the controls inboard a little and see what the effect is. Try to line up your hand position closer to shoulder width. Like what has been said, don't cut your bars yet. I doubt we are talking anything more than an inch or two. Once you find the width you may need to tweak the height if you feel you are still leaning too far causing your head to tilt too much. This may involve the stem or bar depending on the cockpit fit.

    Also realize diagnosing this over the internet is far from ideal. These are just suggestions to get you going in the right direction.
    Last edited by CarolinaLL6; 09-21-2011 at 04:04 AM.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    7,779
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Well, the bars being wider than your shoulders will cause your arm to spread out to reach the grips so ? The more your arms are spread the lower your position.
    Trigonometry tells you that's correct, but in reality the change is so little you don't notice it.

    OP, if your arms and shoulders hurt, instead of going narrower, try and bars that's nice and wide. Personally, I prefer a bar that's 28" wide, or 710mm. Going wider will do several things for you:
    - A wider bar as more give in it, since there's more bar to flex.
    - A wider bar gives you more leverage over the front wheel, and therefore your arms and shoulder need to work less.
    - A wider bar tends to be more comfortable since you can kind of spread out and relax. It's kind of hard to explain, but it's much more relaxing than being on XC-race narrow bars.
    - They make the bike easier to control.
    - A lot of people find it makes climbing easier, since you have something nice and wide to pull against.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    True, good post, I notice more how wider bars slow down steering and how it gets your elbows more likely to stay loose.
    Have been able to jumble let's say a 75mm 0 rise stem with wider riser bars, vs a 100mm 10deg rise stem with more narrow flat bar to get the same general reach but a much different feel, or comfort level, or more riding type specific (AM, XC, DH, ect).
    Think many people make too many changes at one time and not give each small or single change enough saddle time to feel, and end up loosing thier way, instead of getting more dialed in.
    Also not mentioned much is how tire height, diameter, tread pattern front/rear can change riding position, geo, traction, and technique some also. Or how rotating a riser bar can change for/aft reach and angle of sweep.
    Can be tricky to look at the bike as a whole, traction, riding style, your size, bike geo, riding style, personal pref, terrain, when a single subtle adjustment can somehow or sometimes change everything, while your just concentrating on and noticing 1 thing.
    Last edited by theMeat; 09-22-2011 at 06:55 AM.
    Round and round we go

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Drth Vadr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    781
    Before you go buying all kinds of crap go throught a check list. Are you using your core? Are working out your shoulder with push-ups or something? Are bending your arms to absorb bumps and hits? Your arms should act as if part of your suspension. Is pressure spread out evenly across the hand? Is it your thumb pad that hurt or your little finger pad? Have your tried rolling your bars up or down to tweek the back sweep? After you have answered some of these questions, then start buying.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-25-2009, 01:41 AM
  2. 1st Year racing next year, Advice needed.
    By xiek376 in forum XC Racing and Training
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 12-08-2008, 05:37 PM
  3. Which year is the best year for the Shermans/Travis...6" Manitou forks?
    By Christopher Robin in forum Shocks and Suspension
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-04-2008, 11:36 PM
  4. Year to year rear triangle and shock questions
    By RoundRockTJ in forum Ventana
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-01-2005, 02:53 PM

Members who have read this thread: 1

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •