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  1. #1
    Tubby
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    You guys that can afford "Real" bikes are lucky! lol I'm trying my best to raise up some funds to buy a used FS for around $1,000 but I don't know if its going to happen. ( Incase anyone asks why I want a Fs its because I have some back probs and I really like the ride on a Fs bike)

    Is it just me or are prices for "Good" bikes really expensive. I mean I know its worth it if you are really into the sport and I can't talk because If I had the money I would buy the best bike I could.

    Its just tough to come up with that kind of money when you have other expenses.


    You guys that Have $2K plus bikes are lucky and I envy you. I hope you ride the hell out of those bikes and have a crap ton of fun on them! And you gys that have bikes that cost like $5k+ I'm very very jealous of you.

    Btw would it be possible to buy a used frame and put new components on it for the same price as buying a full used bike?

    Also is pinkbike not a popular site or does my area just suck for finding bikes on that site? I have not seen a new bike posted on it for Pittsburgh Pa in the week I have been checking daily.

    I've been checking craigslist also and found a really nice Gary Fisher HiFi ( its a matte black color is looks like but doesnt have the year listed) Does anyone have one of these? Its most likely the bike I am going to try to get if the guy still has it when I come up with the funds.
    theres also a gary fisher cake 1 for like $650 but it looks really beat up.
    Last edited by backwoodz; 04-23-2013 at 02:00 AM.

  2. #2
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    i feel you man... i've been wanting a used heckler for the simplicity of single pivot and good reviews. everyone's saying it's one of the few decent all-mountain bike to be had for around $1k back then. but for some reason, i only find the used ones being sold upwards of $1.5k which isn't making any sense... might just bite the bullet and save money for a new one next year

    on your question, you can get a used frame and put components into it although i'm pretty sure that would get more expensive and almost be as much as a new one. cheapest way is if you have decent parts on your current ride, transfer them over to the used FS frame. just need to make sure everything is compatible.

  3. #3
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    Save for your bike. That's what I'm doing. My local bike shop owners are tired of me coming in to see their merch. I'm 6-7 months from plopping down a huge stack of dead presidents one of these days it'll be a great day for us both. Ill enrich them to the tune of $2k-+ and i get a plush blingy new ride.

  4. #4
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    Ride what you can. While I do agree that bikes are ridiculously expensive (the top of the line bronson is 10k... you kidding me), but without the sales, there wouldn't be the R&D there is, and there wouldn't be the technology we have available to us today. Save as much as you can, whether thats $500 or $5000. Spend it on the best thing your budget allows, or what tickles your fancy.

    Remember, its just a bike.

  5. #5
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    I got a used hardrock for bout 100. I love the thing to death and im out on the trails with my friends. are their 2k treks and jamis awesome? of course they are but im out having just as much fun as them on a "cheap" bike.

    Plus when they wanna upgrade they kick me down their used "expensive" parts for a good deal . win win. lol

  6. #6
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    Two things:

    First, luck has nothing to do with it

    And second, and most importantly, while the right bike can make riding WAY enjoyable, the most important thing is that you're out there riding on what you have.

  7. #7
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    OP...
    Learn to build your own bike,save up,watch for sales,and...be patient.I built a sweet brand new full suspension 29er bike for about 1100 bucks.It can be done.The key is patience.Watch ebay.
    Z
    roccowt.
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  8. #8
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    You'll shop around for stuff in your budget range and improve your ride. The good thing about this sport--It costs nothing but your time and effort to become a better rider. And the components really aren't that important beyond the level you are buying tires and suspension a little more helpful.,And there are good deals out there. So here's a free video. Put the time you have while saving into the part you can't buy. For more fun on the cheap volunteer for some trail building.
    Fluidride: Like A Pro (COMPLETO) - YouTube

  9. #9
    Sleek Jamis Exile Rider
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    Quote Originally Posted by jhmeathead View Post
    I got a used hardrock for bout 100. I love the thing to death and im out on the trails with my friends. are their 2k treks and jamis awesome? of course they are but im out having just as much fun as them on a "cheap" bike.

    Plus when they wanna upgrade they kick me down their used "expensive" parts for a good deal . win win. lol
    Good for you. I currently ride a jamis that I picked up for 300 bones. I have ridden it and enjoyed it for years now.
    I'm getting older and can afford to save up for the kind of creature comforts a high end bike brings. I deserve it. One day you will get there too

  10. #10
    Dirty nerotic bike whore
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    gotta pay to play.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Bastard View Post
    gotta pay to play.
    ^^^...true that.
    ...and the whole secret is...
    like what you're doing and don't look back.LOL
    roccowt.
    rocnbikemeld

  12. #12
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    If you are good with your money you can Paypal same as cash and set a 6 month budget to pay it off before the interest kicks in.

  13. #13
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    My expensive FS is 11 years old. I def cannot afford to replace it right now. But I am slowly saving for a new bike. Patience is key if you have a tight budget whether you go zarr's route and scour ebay for good deals or you spend your time saving your money to buy it off the shelf.

    Ride what you've got for now. Things like the biggest cushy tires you can fit on your bike and a suspension seatpost can help your back in the meantime

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunner66 View Post
    If you are good with your money you can Paypal same as cash and set a 6 month budget to pay it off before the interest kicks in.
    The problem with that idea, at least for me, is that there are so many bikes out there, I havent locked in on one yet.

    Ive ridden FS offerings from Specialized, Trek and and Santa Cruz. I still want to ride Giant and several others. Im not dropping that kind of coin on a bike when one might be better or I find a sweet deal later on in the year.

    Besides, If you are one minute late paying on a paypal deal or other same as cash deal, you get slapped with the full 29% APR and that aint no fun. Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it

  15. #15
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    there is a specialized epic from 2007 on craigslist for 865. Older bikes are harder to move but I bet you could get the seller down to 600. This would give you the headroom to upgrade a few things.

    I usually check my craigslist everyday to see what is new. Using an RSS reader with some search terms can make it easier.

  16. #16
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    you can get a good FS bike on ebay for $1000. ebay generally is better than CL, more buyer protections and not easier to find out fair price.

    do not buy a bike, then upgrade components. that costs more than just buying a higher tier bike in the first place.

    don't worry about 1k vs 5k bikes. It doesn't make that much difference. You'll still get beaten women 10 years older and who started 30 min after you in race on a bike that has 12lbs weight to yours. (i did). It's the rider not the bike.

    golification of bikes, allt he sponsors pay the fast riders to hock their bling. The sponsors don't make riders fast.
    Last edited by bob13bob; 04-23-2013 at 12:09 PM.

  17. #17
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    I also play golf and the obsession with tinkering and equipment is just as bad in that sport too but it's silly for noobs to want the best of the best in terms of equipment. I admit I fall in that category too but some of the best, lowest handicap players I know play with beat up 20 year old clubs. As long as you have something that fits you and won't break every time out it's silly to think a 2k+ bike will make much difference. A buddy of mine loaned me a 10k bike and it felt awesome but it didn't make me go any faster. To use a cliche it's the Indian, not the arrow.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    The problem with that idea, at least for me, is that there are so many bikes out there, I havent locked in on one yet.

    Ive ridden FS offerings from Specialized, Trek and and Santa Cruz. I still want to ride Giant and several others. Im not dropping that kind of coin on a bike when one might be better or I find a sweet deal later on in the year.

    Besides, If you are one minute late paying on a paypal deal or other same as cash deal, you get slapped with the full 29% APR and that aint no fun. Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it
    That is why I started that statement with "If you are good with your money" my credit is over 800 and I have abused the same as cash deal on every major purchase I have made when it was available. I do understand some people are not good with money.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi_GR_Biker View Post
    I also play golf and the obsession with tinkering and equipment is just as bad in that sport too but it's silly for noobs to want the best of the best in terms of equipment. I admit I fall in that category too but some of the best, lowest handicap players I know play with beat up 20 year old clubs. As long as you have something that fits you and won't break every time out it's silly to think a 2k+ bike will make much difference. A buddy of mine loaned me a 10k bike and it felt awesome but it didn't make me go any faster. To use a cliche it's the Indian, not the arrow.
    I also play golf. Its a gear head paradise in that sport. The thing is, you play better with equipment that is fit to you and not just bought off the shelf. I spent money over the cost of my current set (Mizuno forged irons) and immediately noticed an improvement on my ball striking and most importantly, I started enjoying the game more. I also took lessons after I got that set and also saw a vast improvement in my swing. Same with bikes. Buy better equipment, have it fit to you. If you enjoy something more, you will play more and therefore want to get better. So IMO its both. The indian and the arrow.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunner66 View Post
    That is why I started that statement with "If you are good with your money" my credit is over 800 and I have abused the same as cash deal on every major purchase I have made when it was available. I do understand some people are not good with money.
    Im much better and much more cautious with my money in regards to my purchases.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    ...
    Besides, If you are one minute late paying on a paypal deal or other same as cash deal, you get slapped with the full 29% APR and that aint no fun. Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it
    I agree. I take it a step further and I refuse to buy a bike on any kind of credit. I learned my lesson with credit cards years ago. If I can't afford it now, I don't need it now. Save up the cash, work some overtime. Your better off in the long run. Sometimes simple plans don't work out the way you intended when life throws a curve.

  22. #22
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coal-Cracker View Post
    I agree. I take it a step further and I refuse to buy a bike on any kind of credit. I learned my lesson with credit cards years ago. If I can't afford it now, I don't need it now. Save up the cash, work some overtime. Your better off in the long run. Sometimes simple plans don't work out the way you intended when life throws a curve.
    I'm scheduled to make at least 1500 working an extra job over the next 15 days. That will be split between vacation and my bike budget

  23. #23
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    I used to envy those lucky souls who can afford 3, 4, 5+k for their bike. Then I realized. No matter how much your bike costs, it's not gonna make you a better rider. The only thing that'll make you a faster, stronger rider is quite simply...ready for it? RIDING! Regardless of cost. My brother in law spent over 3k on his bike. Got a deal on ebay, it's actually worth over 5. Full XTR spec. I ride so much faster than him it's ridiculous. Thats how I came to this conclusion.

    Those high end bikes have high end parts hung on em. When they break it just costs that much more to replace said parts. I now have a nice simple stock SS, cost me less than 1k and I'm perfectly happy with it to the point I plan to leave it stock for awhile.
    SS ==> Nut up or Shut up!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormac View Post
    Then I realized. No matter how much your bike costs, it's not gonna make you a better rider. The only thing that'll make you a faster, stronger rider is quite simply...ready for it? RIDING! Regardless of cost. My brother in law spent over 3k on his bike. Got a deal on ebay, it's actually worth over 5. Full XTR spec. I ride so much faster than him it's ridiculous. Thats how I came to this conclusion.
    Sorry, but I disagree - If I am going through a steep technical section, I will get through it much better on my $5000 AM bike then I would on my $50 walmart bike.

    Cash can buy skills to an extent. Imagine how much slower your brother in law would be on your bike through those same sections.......

  25. #25
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    I sold my ~$2500 bike for $900 used, in excellent condition with new tires and recently serviced everything. This isnt uncommon.

    Really made me think about what I was paying for new... I dont buy new anymore.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    I sold my ~$2500 bike for $900 used, in excellent condition with new tires and recently serviced everything. This isnt uncommon.

    Really made me think about what I was paying for new... I dont buy new anymore.
    yeah, used is too good value to pass up. I could walk in a store and buy a top of the line bike. I won't because I know it's very poor value compared to used bikes.
    Last edited by bob13bob; 04-24-2013 at 12:10 AM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormac View Post
    I used to envy those lucky souls who can afford 3, 4, 5+k for their bike. Then I realized. No matter how much your bike costs, it's not gonna make you a better rider. The only thing that'll make you a faster, stronger rider is quite simply...ready for it? RIDING! Regardless of cost. My brother in law spent over 3k on his bike. Got a deal on ebay, it's actually worth over 5. Full XTR spec. I ride so much faster than him it's ridiculous. Thats how I came to this conclusion.

    Those high end bikes have high end parts hung on em. When they break it just costs that much more to replace said parts. I now have a nice simple stock SS, cost me less than 1k and I'm perfectly happy with it to the point I plan to leave it stock for awhile.
    seriously.. This is echoed so much by experienced (not me) riders to novices, but it's really hard to sink in until you see your buddies kick your butt on junk bikes or even cyclocross (me) in technical sections. Then I went to my first race and watched a chick on a heavy outdated full suspension bike kick his butt in mostly tame fireroad racing.

    talking about SS, i was surprised to see they were only about 5% slower
    sea otter cat 2 xc results: top 5 singlespeed vs geared. SS about 5% slower.
    Last edited by bob13bob; 04-24-2013 at 12:05 AM.

  28. #28
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    $50 Walmart bike vs $5K AM rig may not be the best comparison. A $50 walmart bike is a leisure bike not an MTB.
    I have just sold off my XT/XTR 2010 Epic to part fund a Nomad. The wife has a bad knee and isn't riding so I have pinched her 2007 hardrock (a mishmash of old 9 speed Deore / LX parts, an old 100mm fox fork that is on its last legs and a 70% worn out set of RaRa's)

    Ok I can't hit some of the descents as quickly or as confidently as I could on the Epic but I am still having fun and I can still smoke a lot of guys I see on their $5K+ bling bling carbon machines. There is nothing locally I can't ride on the hardrock that I could on the Epic. Looking at my lap times on the Garmin on a cuple of local XC circuits; on avg I am a bit slower than the epic but way less than 5% - although I haven't really clocked up enough time on the hardrock yet and I haven't tackled anything super technical on it. That's why I want the Nomad.

    Cash cannot buy basic skills, I don't think that a noob on $10K Scalpel is going to go any faster or develop basic skills any faster than a noob on a $1k hardtail.

  29. #29
    reading comprehension wat
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleJon View Post
    Cash cannot buy basic skills, I don't think that a noob on $10K Scalpel is going to go any faster or develop basic skills any faster than a noob on a $1k hardtail.
    Would you like to make a bet on that?
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    Would you like to make a bet on that?
    Yea, the noob on the hardtail will develop better skills than the noob on the FS.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    Yea, the noob on the hardtail will develop better skills than the noob on the FS.
    Accepting all bets, even on any of the individual points there. The point originally posted was about developing basic skills faster, while "[developing] better skills" is vague at best. Anyways, your wager? I'm quite confident on my side and would consider any wager as a nice donation to my cause. Keep in mind that your wager reflects your confidence and commitment.
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    Accepting all bets, even on any of the individual points there. The point originally posted was about learning faster, and "develop better skills" is vague at best. Anyways, your wager? I'm quite confident on my side and would consider any wager as a nice donation to my cause. Keep in mind that your wager reflects your confidence and commitment.

    Haha you alright there buddy? ... I'd bet you have some sort of superiority complex, if that doesn't work for you I will bet the total amount of USD that is in circulation today. It takes considerably more amount of skill to ride a hardtail on the same exact trails as a FS, given that the trails are technical enough to push the limits of the rider on the FS.

    So yes, lets play the algebra equation game. If Noob a on the hardtail were to ride a technical trail, he would have to learn to be a much smoother rider than noob B on the FS, learning to use his body as suspension in order to maintain the same amount of efficiency over said terrain than that of noob B.

    Ultimately, noob A would develop better skills, which over time, he would be able to translate those skills to an even better rider when he later switched to a FS.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    Accepting all bets, even on any of the individual points there. The point originally posted was about developing basic skills faster, while "[developing] better skills" is vague at best. Anyways, your wager? I'm quite confident on my side and would consider any wager as a nice donation to my cause. Keep in mind that your wager reflects your confidence and commitment.
    How do you propose to quantify said wager? It would have to include a range of basic skills: ascent and descent, cornering over a range of terrains, basic skills such as bunny hops, manuals etc.....

    My point was that most of the noob mistakes I see have nothing to do with the bike - just inexperience - not breathing properly, out of the saddle mashing uphill, wrong gear selection and changing gear at the wrong time, excessive nervous braking on descents and generally no clue how to use the brakes, gripping the bars too hard, cornering with the bars rather than using the body, incorrect fore aft weight positioning when climbing / decsending. etc

    Given the use of an MTB (not a wall mart bike) a $1K hardtail is just as good as $10K carbon FS to learn this stuff on.

  34. #34
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    I think that every cyclist should serve an 'apprenticeship'...I'm a bit tired of seeing overweight technophiles splashing the cash on a mega-money bikes and then giving up after discovering that you still have to pedal them.

    I've just built a bike for a few hundred quid and none of my £2k bike friends can get anywhere near me because I have more experience and I'm fitter than them. I also ride just enough bike for the conditions and no more, that helps.

    My advice - Get a cheap bike and become a cyclist before you go wasting your money on a bike that isn't right for you.

  35. #35
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    If a person is sure they are in it for good,they shouldn't start with a cheapo bike though.Just doesn't make sense.Learn and get a good bike right off the bat.but like what you'
    re doing first,of course.
    roccowt.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogdog View Post
    I think that every cyclist should serve an 'apprenticeship'...I'm a bit tired of seeing overweight technophiles splashing the cash on a mega-money bikes and then giving up after discovering that you still have to pedal them.

    I've just built a bike for a few hundred quid and none of my £2k bike friends can get anywhere near me because I have more experience and I'm fitter than them. I also ride just enough bike for the conditions and no more, that helps.

    My advice - Get a cheap bike and become a cyclist before you go wasting your money on a bike that isn't right for you.
    Oh yeah - I forgot to include being unfit in the list.......

    BTW buying the Mark Cavendish Team Sky World Champion Kit complete with gloves and Helmet along with your $10K+ scalpel does not make up for you being a fat bastard

  37. #37
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    Okay, I'll play your game.

    The stereotypical noob has little to no experience on dirt and has little cycling-related fitness. They're typically the kind of person that gets interested and invited by someone close to them, or maybe rode casually on the road (on a beater/dept store bike) and wanted to try out something fun that actually held up decently on trails.

    Being on a superlight FS bike decked out with quality parts that perform reliably allows them to preserve their strength and stamina for technical sections, allowing them to focus on riding them smoothly, not thinking much about their equipment, making up for the noob's lack of fitness. The traction, control, and responsiveness allows them to focus on the significant and meaningful trail feedback. They will be more willing to challenge more technical sections, rather than cower before them. Conquering them immediately knocks down mental blocks before they even come up. You might run into another noob on a cheaper bike and think why they're having trouble, and you would be like, oh, that was easy, you "just" did this and that...

    Being on a cheaper heavy hardtail, tends to make you want to work on fitness first. With fatigue set in, your time on the trail is greatly reduced to 30 minutes, 1 hour, or other short time frames. Fatigue greatly affects your ability to control your bike in technical section, and many more situations arise where you will blame your equipment for not being up to your expectations. You are more likely to deal with mechanical failures along the way, and will tend to want to ride easier trails, or by yourself, since you do not want to hold back more skilled riders if you rode in a group. When you stop at obstacles, you imagine them in a way that actually creates mental blocks. You might even create habits that are hard to reverse later on, that are related to fatigue and minimizing the pain in case of a crash (going slow and hanging off the back of the saddle).

    I'll one-up your game, by asking for anecdotal experience from people here. I know there are a number of casual riders out there that may have transitioned from cheap HT to high end FS. I want to ask if they noticed their attitude changed about biking when they went high end. Did you become more aggressive, with a need for speed, and overcoming obstacles even faster and skillfully? Did you become more serious or passionate about biking? Did you go even bigger? Basically, was there room to grow still? How long did you ride the cheap HT before going high end? Years? How long on the new high end FS, and what's your skill level now after riding high end FS, in comparison to the years on the HT? Did you start flying off of small rock drops instead of slowly rolling them? Are you more into the DH and twisties and fun flowy sections and other technical stuff than you ever were on the HT? Taking it a step further, did anyone who follow this path of upgrades, go back to a higher end HT, maybe for XC racing, and find their skill on it was far far better than they ever were on the cheap HT?

    Why do some people want big FS bikes here? To try something bigger that they may have a mental block that prevents them from doing it on their cheap HT maybe?
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarr View Post
    If a person is sure they are in it for good,they shouldn't start with a cheapo bike though.Just doesn't make sense.Learn and get a good bike right off the bat.but like what you'
    re doing first,of course.
    easier said than done. It's hard to know if you are in it for good without doing it for awhile. I'm a proponent of getting the most value you can from your first bike = used bike. If the new rider decides to exit the sport, the total cost of ownership of a value bike is much lower than a new bike. they can resell for about the same purchase price. VS a new bike, you leave the store it loses 40% of it's value.

  39. #39
    reading comprehension wat
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    I think there are misconceptions about what "better skills" are and what a hardtail can accomplish. When people think of hardtails, they kind of bunch in dirt jump bikes, freestyle bikes, trials bikes, and basic bikes that are nice for playing on small courses like pump tracks. They think the wheelies, manuals, bunnyhops, pumping, cornering on berms, jumps, doubles, style, and trials type stuff are great skills. Most FS mountain bikes have trail oriented/balanced geo, which aren't ideal for such skills.

    What skills you do learn on a trail oriented bike are line choice, braking, positioning, gear shifting, weighting/unweighting, efficiency, balance, trackstands, speed and traction management, climbing, high speed cornering, low speed technical sections, tight sections, avoiding pedal strikes, negotiating ruts, navigation, etc. You can experience a wide variety of trail features, from visiting many different trails and sections. You are more likely to explore and cover a lot of ground. This is kind of what I call real world mountain biking. It's better to learn by doing, right? It can be as much of a mental challenge sometimes as it is a physical challenge. Starting on the higher end bike can sweep away a huge amount of mental hurdles, basically fast tracking the noob to "I can't believe you've been only riding for weeks, it took me years to be as good as that" status.

    Don't underestimate mental blocks and the issue of forming bad habits. If you attempt jumps and wreck on a cheap bike, it will take quite a bit of willpower to overcome that mental block to even try it on a big capable FS bike. Even then, you might still have to reverse bad habits and promote good form, such as staying low and centered, rather than hanging off the back.

    I'm jealous of nicer bikes too. Maybe I come up with various reasoning not to, but I don't think there's a reason to make stuff up about them. If I called out Cannondale and their $10k Scapel, saying something like this, and I would be apologizing to their engineers when I learned better. High end bikes are very nicely engineered pieces of art.
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

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    My last point, which is my perspective on all this. You see someone good on a bike. You question how? One might think it's the rider. What if the rider has only been riding for 1 year? One might think it's the bike. What if the bike is a cheap one? There's no point oversimplifying based on that logic. What made him good is the path he took, which starts way way before he even started riding or talking. The way he grew up, the way he was taught to sense and comprehend things, and the way he was taught to behave/act as far as physical activities went. What made the bike good is years and years of refinement, and intellectuals constantly trying to find and capitalize on every little bit of performance potential, and put it in a balanced package for an intended purpose, which can be mass produced for the world to enjoy their creation.

    If I had to simplify this in terms people want to hear, on this forum, I would sum it up like this: It's both the rider and the bike. A very well engineered bike can make a rider, at least up to a point; and a rider with an upbringing that was made to do something like this can display his abilities on most any bike, though being on a better bike would get better results.
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

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    I'm jealous of nicer bikes too. Maybe I come up with various reasoning not to, but I don't think there's a reason to make stuff up about them. If I called out Cannondale and their $10k Scapel, saying something like this, and I would be apologizing to their engineers when I learned better. High end bikes are very nicely engineered pieces of art.
    .If memory serves correct, there was one FS in the top 10 2012 olympics mtb race, and it wasn't a canondale. The rest were hardtail. super high end bikes are all weight savings eg raceday only wheelsets which are just silly to regular folk. So if $10k FS bikes can't compete in professional money-no-object races, why should anyone else buy them?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    I think there are misconceptions about what "better skills" are and what a hardtail can accomplish. When people think of hardtails, they kind of bunch in dirt jump bikes, freestyle bikes, trials bikes, and basic bikes that are nice for playing on small courses like pump tracks. They think the wheelies, manuals, bunnyhops, pumping, cornering on berms, jumps, doubles, style, and trials type stuff are great skills. Most FS mountain bikes have trail oriented/balanced geo, which aren't ideal for such skills.

    What skills you do learn on a trail oriented bike are line choice, braking, positioning, gear shifting, weighting/unweighting, efficiency, balance, trackstands, speed and traction management, climbing, high speed cornering, low speed technical sections, tight sections, avoiding pedal strikes, negotiating ruts, navigation, etc. You can experience a wide variety of trail features, from visiting many different trails and sections. You are more likely to explore and cover a lot of ground. This is kind of what I call real world mountain biking. It's better to learn by doing, right? It can be as much of a mental challenge sometimes as it is a physical challenge. Starting on the higher end bike can sweep away a huge amount of mental hurdles, basically fast tracking the noob to "I can't believe you've been only riding for weeks, it took me years to be as good as that" status.

    Don't underestimate mental blocks and the issue of forming bad habits. If you attempt jumps and wreck on a cheap bike, it will take quite a bit of willpower to overcome that mental block to even try it on a big capable FS bike. Even then, you might still have to reverse bad habits and promote good form, such as staying low and centered, rather than hanging off the back.

    I'm jealous of nicer bikes too. Maybe I come up with various reasoning not to, but I don't think there's a reason to make stuff up about them. If I called out Cannondale and their $10k Scapel, saying something like this, and I would be apologizing to their engineers when I learned better. High end bikes are very nicely engineered pieces of art.
    You're signature is pretty spot on with your online persona. You're rationale is bothersome, and I feel like any educated argument with you is an utter waste of time. So I'll just save my breathe.

    OP. Again, buy the best bike you can. Take time, develop your skills. Don't fall into the thought process that you need a certain bike to be better, until that is actually the case, which will happen once you begin to develop those skills. There are A LOT of different bikes out there. They're all unique in most cases. It will take time for you to actually realize what bike best suits you and what will get the most out of the type of riding you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob13bob View Post
    .If memory serves correct, there was one FS in the top 10 2012 olympics mtb race, and it wasn't a canondale. The rest were hardtail. super high end bikes are all weight savings eg raceday only wheelsets which are just silly to regular folk. So if $10k FS bikes can't compete in professional money-no-object races, why should anyone else buy them?
    Oversimplification. The pros chose accordingly. They are performing at the perceived limits of current human sports performance science and favorable results can come down to strategy, planning, and preparation, including training, rest, nutrition, being familiar with the course (down to knowing the exact dirt characteristics), etc. There's a lot to consider in pro racing, if you want to get just a few seconds and a few places. Racing has quite a mental game, that requires a bit of mental composure and "peace of mind", as to not strain it. Pro choices can come down to simply what they felt comfortable on. I'd venture to say that those that agonize their choices and regret, tend to not put down consistent results, due to mental instability or whatever, but I'm speaking out of my area of expertise now. Kind of off-topic too, as it's not a thread on $10k Scapel vs $8k hardtail.

    Regarding the bet, you give up? No honor in your word? Only shameful display of baseless insults?
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

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    If you thought I was implying that noobs should buy top of the line products, I'm not. What I write should be taken quite literally, offering a new perspective to aid in the understanding of a topic. I provide context, to try and limit the weird ASSumptions people make, interpreting what I write as if I were a heathen. I questioned a conclusion that I thought was rather disturbing, and offered my perspective since some people felt offended that I'd challenge such a belief.

    There's merits to starting at the entry level. You can enjoy the sport in moderation, learning at a comfortable pace. If you attempt to take a shortcut to learn skills as fast as possible, you may be missing out on years of fun and memories. There's many other reasons to enjoy MTB, such as enjoying nature. Look at some of the pics out there of lush green fields, filled with wild flowers. Or maybe wild life spotting. It's not all about roller coaster thrills of going fast, looking for bumps and other obstacles in the trail, nor about the jumps and All-mountain/DH fashion.

    Someone brought up the subject of learning basics faster, as if learning fast was desirable for a hobby/sport like mountain biking. I am more of a social mountain biker. Some people I ride with have many bikes, and choose accordingly in consideration of the trail, skill level of others, amount of time we're planning on staying out, etc. I sometimes hook up with a local club too, where a beginner upgraded in order to keep up with the rest of the group. With a FS 29er, he basically transformed from 1 month of being wait up for, to keeping up and riding more mid-pack. It was an instant change. He did not say anything about his HT giving him skills to do better on the FS. The better bike just simply enabled him to be more confident and ride as fast, as to keep up with some of the rabbits in the group.

    Basically, I'm just trying to be realistic. A $10k FS bike, like the Cannondale Scapel, *will make a noob faster and allow them to learn basics faster* than a noob on a $1k hardtail, BUT a $1k hardtail will allow you to experience the fun of mountain biking for years to come. Again, repeating this for emphasis, think of getting the entry level bike, and slowly upgrading, as enjoying mountain biking in moderation. If you skip to the high end, you may be skipping a lot of potential fun in the learning process, as challenging yourself is fun. Taking out the challenge, by getting a bike too capable can make things boring and dull. There are people that go the opposite route, and go FS, and move to a HT, to get some of the challenge back, once they learn. Going cheap is another thing, as that comes with a host of reliability issues and performance deterioration due to improper care and normal wear and tear. If you buy a $$ bike, you may ride as fast as, or faster than an old timer who's been riding for decades, but they have far more wisdom and experience that you don't have, including experiences on various trails, with various companions, with lots of memories. Can't really put a price on those experiences, and can you even afford to go out and gain them after spending so much on the bike? $10k bike, stuck on a poor college guy diet for years, or $1-2k bike with road trips with friends and after-ride refreshments?
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

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    So whats the wager then from a pseudo intellectual / scientific / engineering /psychogangnamstyle standpoint?
    All of your verbal diarrhea seems to come down to the fact you know one guy who kept up with you because he went out and bought a scalpel therefore mountain biking is a mental state of mind + engineering - apriori nonsense?
    ball - hole , send it home Happy

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleJon View Post
    BTW buying the Mark Cavendish Team Sky World Champion Kit complete with gloves and Helmet along with your $10K+ scalpel does not make up for you being a fat bastard
    lol

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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    My budget for my next bike will not exceed 2k. Why? Because I don't need anything more expensive.

    I'm not going to race to win( not at my age anyway) except for the social aspect of hanging with my friends in my club.

    I've ridden the box store bikes, and I've ridden a decent $300 ht ss bike. The low end bikes have caused me no end of worry with the cheap components like " will it ghost shift under the load of getting up this hill? Or will my chain suck occur again trying to keep up on flat sections.

    I could go on and on. 2k gets me a really nice specced fs that I can enjoy for many years. I don't know how old some of you guys are who say anyone can and should get by with ht for under 1k. Nor do I care. That's your thing. If that's what gets you riding, good for you. For me, how long do I want to keep grinding and banging on my old hard tail?

    I'm on the shady side of 40 nearing 50 now. I was talking to an older rider in my club the other day admiring his trek fuel ex he bought new 8-9 years ago. He came off the trail with huge grins. That's what I aspire to copy. I want that kind if riding for the next how ever many years.

    And those grins

  48. #48
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    I guess I was fortunate enough to have a cool local bike shop. I too didnt have the 3K to put down on a new bike. What I did do is put it on layaway. He didnt care how long it took me since he was able to store it in the basement of the shop. I also did this as the season ended. I sold my bike to put towards the new one, plus it was winter time so I didnt really miss having a bike. I followed a tight budget and got my bike as the season started
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormac View Post
    I used to envy those lucky souls who can afford 3, 4, 5+k for their bike. Then I realized. No matter how much your bike costs, it's not gonna make you a better rider. The only thing that'll make you a faster, stronger rider is quite simply...ready for it? RIDING! Regardless of cost. My brother in law spent over 3k on his bike. Got a deal on ebay, it's actually worth over 5. Full XTR spec. I ride so much faster than him it's ridiculous. Thats how I came to this conclusion.

    Those high end bikes have high end parts hung on em. When they break it just costs that much more to replace said parts. I now have a nice simple stock SS, cost me less than 1k and I'm perfectly happy with it to the point I plan to leave it stock for awhile.
    Wrong comparison. While it is the rider it's foolish to say the bike has nothing to do with it. You should swap with your brother in law and see how much faster you are and how much slower he is. That's a true comparison as long as both bikes fit you properly.

    My example would be BMXing a long time ago. My first decent bike was a Schwinn bike, mild steel frame, tuff wheels. I had it for the entire summer, never won a race but I was always just outside the top 3, 4th or 5th.
    Once my parents realized it wasn't a fad and I was doing well and wanted to continue, I got a Team Mongoose for Christmas. That next summer 1st-3rd unless I crashed. 3rd at the Vineland NJ nationals in my age group, top 50 in MD.

    So the equipment does make a difference.

    All that being said, living in a wealthy part of the country, I see a lot of people on very high end bikes that ride around a 2-3 inch log in the trail.
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  50. #50
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    Generally, it's much more satisfying to outperform someone with the best/most expensive/trendiest product while using your own inferior gear than vice versa, regardless of the sport. Your gear can only work as well as the engine that powers it.

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    OP-what type of FS bike are you trying to buy?
    29er,26er?
    You can get a pretty nice FS bike for 1000 bucks,man...if you know how.
    Tell me something.
    Hey...I did it.
    If you're not a racer,and just a regular guy,you don't need a 2 or 5000 buck bike anyway.Keep in mind your riding capabilities can have something to do with that big buck bike.If you just want a nice bike,why do you need a big zoot bike anyway?
    Chime back in.
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clownshoes View Post
    Generally, it's much more satisfying to outperform someone with the best/most expensive/trendiest product while using your own inferior gear than vice versa, regardless of the sport. Your gear can only work as well as the engine that powers it.
    I spend money on equipment that will give me the best performance I can do - Do others ride better /faster then me? Hell yes. Are their bikes worse/less expensive/not as trendy? Maybe - I dont really care - Its not the reason I ride.

    Completely agree that a good engine really helps - but there aint nothing wrong with tech either!

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clownshoes View Post
    Generally, it's much more satisfying to outperform someone with the best/most expensive/trendiest product while using your own inferior gear than vice versa, regardless of the sport. Your gear can only work as well as the engine that powers it.
    By the same token the gear can hold back the engine. It's not an either or, it's a combination.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    I spend money on equipment that will give me the best performance I can do - Do others ride better /faster then me? Hell yes. Are their bikes worse/less expensive/not as trendy? Maybe - I dont really care - Its not the reason I ride.

    Completely agree that a good engine really helps - but there aint nothing wrong with tech either!
    ^^^I completely agree.I like to ride as SLOW as possible...at times.I like my smiles to last awhile when I ride.
    I'm not a racer.I buy equipment because I like it...period.
    ...And when XTR and Sram upper level stuff is affordable,I get it.And sometimes low level parts feel better because of shape and fit...like saddles,etc.
    OP...remember one thing. Even the most tip-top stuff becomes obsolete...everyday all day.Just make sure your bike is strong and safe enough.The best bike is a safe bike.
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    Re: Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    Oversimplification. The pros chose accordingly. They are performing at the perceived limits of current human sports performance science and favorable results can come down to strategy, planning, and preparation, including training, rest, nutrition, being familiar with the course (down to knowing the exact dirt characteristics), etc. There's a lot to consider in pro racing, if you want to get just a few seconds and a few places. Racing has quite a mental game, that requires a bit of mental composure and "peace of mind", as to not strain it. Pro choices can come down to simply what they felt comfortable on. I'd venture to say that those that agonize their choices and regret, tend to not put down consistent results, due to mental instability or whatever, but I'm speaking out of my area of expertise now. Kind of off-topic too, as it's not a thread on $10k Scapel vs $8k hardtail.

    Regarding the bet, you give up? No honor in your word? Only shameful display of baseless insults?
    I.think you just supported my point.

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    Re: Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    Not saying the bike makes 0% difference, saying it mskes an insignificant difference.


    Look at the data I posted. A drastically cheaper.and.different ssinglespped.is about 5% slower than geared. Imagine the difference in bikes between super duper $$ geared and mid tier that weighs 3lbs more.. very smalll.difference.

    We.over blow. Gear andd undervlue what's really important, training and practice. You can thank excellent marketing propaganda for.that.


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    I was also in the same boat, and just didn't have the cash 3 years ago to drop on a $2500 bike. So, you can take the "step up" approach like I did. Start with a solid affordable bike and ride it for a year or so, save another $500 or so, then sell it and move to the next level. Just don't keep it for so long you wear out the drive train parts or the bike looks old.

    First bike: Windsor Cliff 29er Pro - $600 (sold for $400 after about a year)
    Second Bike: Cannondale Rize 4 - $1600 (sold for $1200 after about 2 years)
    Third Bike: Santa Cruz Blur LT Al - $2700 (got last May/June and still have it)
    "Got everything you need?"

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinGT View Post
    Two things:

    First, luck has nothing to do with it

    And second, and most importantly, while the right bike can make riding WAY enjoyable, the most important thing is that you're out there riding on what you have.
    Luck actually has LOT to do with it. As a radical example, does some starving child in Africa have the means to pull themselves out of poverty and into wealth? Not really.

    People who start out wealthier have the tendency to accrue more wealth. I suppose generally in America if you went to a decent school you have an equal chance to succeed, but even then genetics have to be taken into account. What if you simply weren't born as smart as other people? Another radical example is that you were born with a mental illness.

    If you aren't impoverished, got to attend a decent school, and are relatively intelligent...then the playing field is equalized.

  59. #59
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    Quote Originally Posted by bob13bob View Post
    Not saying the bike makes 0% difference, saying it mskes an insignificant difference.


    Look at the data I posted. A drastically cheaper.and.different ssinglespped.is about 5% slower than geared. Imagine the difference in bikes between super duper $$ geared and mid tier that weighs 3lbs more.. very smalll.difference.

    We.over blow. Gear andd undervlue what's really important, training and practice. You can thank excellent marketing propaganda for.that.


    Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2
    If the bike manufacturers would make a full suspension single speed if be all over it. Until then, ill be lookin for the best bang for the buck. And right now, those bikes range 1800-2500 k

  60. #60
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    I see I should have specified. I was referring to his 3k+ FS bike vs my 700 entry level HT. Will be interesting to see how my new SS holds up!
    SS ==> Nut up or Shut up!

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    Sometimes when I am stuck in traffic I look at people in BMWs and Mercedes and think "lucky people with big ass car payments".

  62. #62
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    I'm growing weary of my $2300 bike, and am eyeing $3500 bikes.

    It (the 'eyeing' part) comes with the territory.

  63. #63
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    [QUOTE=MadMacMan;10341352]The problem with that idea, at least for me, is that there are so many bikes out there, I havent locked in on one yet.

    I totaly know what you mean. For months, I had been thinking about getting a new bike (my first "real" mtn bike) and was pretty overwhelmed with the selection. In the end, this is what I did.
    I thought about what my riding style is, researched bikes only deep enough to know they were recommended for that style of riding and then went and rode some of them. I rode the heck out of them and I rode the same trails each time with each bike so I could compare performance. I didn't research or discuss their components or anything other than what type of riding they were meant for. Turns out the Stump Jumper size large was the perfect fit for me. Then I looked into its components, read reviews and came to the conclusion that it is an acceptable quality bike. That plus the fact that it "fit" me and I really enjoyed riding it clinched the deal for me. Really got rid of the "overwhelmed" problem for me.

  64. #64
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    [QUOTE=Irideon;10345669]
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    The problem with that idea, at least for me, is that there are so many bikes out there, I havent locked in on one yet.

    I totaly know what you mean. For months, I had been thinking about getting a new bike (my first "real" mtn bike) and was pretty overwhelmed with the selection. In the end, this is what I did.
    I thought about what my riding style is, researched bikes only deep enough to know they were recommended for that style of riding and then went and rode some of them. I rode the heck out of them and I rode the same trails each time with each bike so I could compare performance. I didn't research or discuss their components or anything other than what type of riding they were meant for. Turns out the Stump Jumper size large was the perfect fit for me. Then I looked into its components, read reviews and came to the conclusion that it is an acceptable quality bike. That plus the fact that it "fit" me and I really enjoyed riding it clinched the deal for me. Really got rid of the "overwhelmed" problem for me.
    In one shop, I have found a 2011 model stumpjumper comp that is 600$ less than current year model that I hope will be there in 6-7 months when I'm ready wih the cash. If not, oh well there will be other bikes that will be in clearance then and I can get a great deal on a newer bike

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    Those here who are saying that really nice bikes don't result in riders going faster and clearing more technical terrain are delusional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdan View Post
    Those here who are saying that really nice bikes don't result in riders going faster and clearing more technical terrain are delusional.
    We're talking XC here. Big travel bikes are not worth the weight they cost even in money no object bikes. Also, big travel affects handling negatively in XC, ttats why pro xc have their suspension in 80-100mm mode. Really nice bikes are faster, but they don't make a significant difference even in intermediate racing. your body and your skill development are far more important. Considering beginner racing and more casual riders, even less so.

    For pros and their sponsors, it's worth having a 10k bike to shave off 5% of their time with a fulltime team of race mechanics. But for the rest of us... I'm talking about the difference between 1200 and 10000 bikes here. It's a smaller difference than a 300 and 1200 bike.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob13bob View Post
    We're talking XC here. Big travel bikes are not worth the weight they cost even in money no object bikes. Also, big travel affects handling negatively in XC, ttats why pro xc have their suspension in 80-100mm mode. Really nice bikes are faster, but they don't make a significant difference even in intermediate racing. your body and your skill development are far more important. Considering beginner racing and more casual riders, even less so.

    For pros and their sponsors, it's worth having a 10k bike to shave off 5% of their time with a fulltime team of race mechanics. But for the rest of us... I'm talking about the difference between 1200 and 10000 bikes here. It's a smaller difference than a 300 and 1200 bike.
    I thought the OP was referring to $500-$800 bikes. Those are the ones that I was talking about. Those flexy, oil filled forks and horribly heavy and sloppy wheels can't stand up to the nasty terrain that you can plow through on a high end fork or the way you can climb, track and corner on light and stiff wheels.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    If the bike manufacturers would make a full suspension single speed I'd be all over it. Until then, ill be lookin for the best bang for the buck. And right now, those bikes range 1800-2500 k
    Here's one for you:

    Lenz Sport :: The best full-suspension mountain bikes :: MilkMoney 3.0

    =======================================
    As for the OP, once you get to a certain price point and have a decent bike, the returns for spending lots of money on a bike generally diminish as the price goes higher. If you have plenty of disposable income, then buying a bike that is far more capable then you are is certainly no crime, and it's your money to spend. A nicer bike usually works better regardless of the talent level of the rider. It's more important to get the right bike for the terrain you ride most of the time, and get the right size, than it is to have the highest level componentry.

    Who am I to say someone shouldn't buy a more expensive bike because there are others with more talent/fitness riding less expensive bikes? What makes them the gauge everyone else has to abide by?

    If someone is asking about getting the most bang for their buck, and is working within a budget, then I will tell them my opinion. But I won't look down my nose if someone buys a nicer bike than I have, yet isn't as fast or fit. For 99+% of us, there is always someone that rides a much older, crappier bike than you do that can kick your butt up and down the hills.

    Are you enjoying riding and owning your bike, no matter what it costs? Yes? Great, lets ride, and have fun doing it!

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob13bob View Post
    We're talking XC here. Big travel bikes are not worth the weight they cost even in money no object bikes. Also, big travel affects handling negatively in XC, ttats why pro xc have their suspension in 80-100mm mode. Really nice bikes are faster, but they don't make a significant difference even in intermediate racing. your body and your skill development are far more important. Considering beginner racing and more casual riders, even less so.

    For pros and their sponsors, it's worth having a 10k bike to shave off 5% of their time with a fulltime team of race mechanics. But for the rest of us... I'm talking about the difference between 1200 and 10000 bikes here. It's a smaller difference than a 300 and 1200 bike.
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdan View Post
    I thought the OP was referring to $500-$800 bikes. Those are the ones that I was talking about. Those flexy, oil filled forks and horribly heavy and sloppy wheels can't stand up to the nasty terrain that you can plow through on a high end fork or the way you can climb, track and corner on light and stiff wheels.

    I think bob lost the point of the tread. The OP is not talking about the difference between a $1200 bike and a 10k bike.

    He's trying to scrape up $1000 for a FS bike and yes there is a difference between a $1000 FS and a 2k plus one. The differences get smaller as the price tag goes up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I think bob lost the point of the tread. The OP is not talking about the difference between a $1200 bike and a 10k bike.

    He's trying to scrape up $1000 for a FS bike and yes there is a difference between a $1000 FS and a 2k plus one. The differences get smaller as the price tag goes up.
    this thread has evolved in to something more than OP's post. Have you followed the discussion. Another member brought up 10k bikes. Never said there wasn't a difference in higher tier bikes, just that it's small an insignificant compared to training and rider ability.

    here's $1000 FS bike
    Trek Fuel EX 8 Mens Full Suspension Mountain Bike 2008 Size Medium or 17 5" | eBay

  71. #71
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    The deal with my wife was that I could buy a new bike once I finished grad school, but now that I am almost done, my wife is pregnant. It's a conspiracy I tell you! Oh well. I'm still having fun on my HT I bought in 2008, which isn't such a bad ride.

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    I'm not jealous of the people riding those fancy pants uber bikes.. but I am jealous of their financial situation

    Of course, I am of the mind that even if I could afford some of the higher end bikes, I would be too much of a wuss to take it out of the driveway. You actually want me to put a scratch on my $5,000 bike? Are you serious? No thanks, I'll just take this $500 bike out on the trails and get it beat up instead.

    Same aspect goes for cars.. if I was a billionaire, I would have a Lambo that would sit in the garage. I would take it to the driveway to wash it, and put it back in the garage, and then get in my Ford Tempo to go driving places.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by backwoodz View Post
    You guys that can afford "Real" bikes are lucky! lol I'm trying my best to raise up some funds to buy a used FS for around $1,000 but I don't know if its going to happen. ( Incase anyone asks why I want a Fs its because I have some back probs and I really like the ride on a Fs bike)...
    Buy used and don't worry about the latest and greatest. The bike I ride is well built one I put together in 2003. Hardtail with mostly XT parts. Nice 24lbs weight and will ride anywhere. It still has v-brakes and is of course 26" wheels. The only changes from 2003 initial build are tires and new fork (old one wore out). Initial build cost was around $1500 back in the day and I built it from parts.

    Point is you don't need the best of everything to have a good time riding. You need solid parts so that last and work well, but if you look used a solid FS bike should be possible. HT should be easy.

    The guys on really fancy 2k or 5k bikes are not having more fun. They mostly have less money in their pockets due to the purchase. If you are smart you can get nice bike for alot less that will do just fine.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Sorry, but I disagree - If I am going through a steep technical section, I will get through it much better on my $5000 AM bike then I would on my $50 walmart bike.

    Cash can buy skills to an extent. Imagine how much slower your brother in law would be on your bike through those same sections.......
    That $50 walmart bike is junk pure and simple. However make it a used $500 bike from 2004 that was a $3500 bike in the day? I would say that even equal riders will have a similar pace on both. Even a $500 entry level bike will do just find with a good rider. I learned this from back in my early days of riding where my friend a I rode hardtails and the 3rd guy ride a rigid because he could not get a fork on his 1" steer tube bike and being 6'5" had lots of issues find frames that fit. So he rode a CrMoly Giant rigid. Crappy bike even then, but he would kills us on any descent from fast to slow and technical since he was a better descender. We owned him the climbs because we where more fit.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

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    My advice to the OP would be to keep your eyes peeled on Craigslist and Ebay. I was recently able to score a high-end custom build 2011 Cannondale RZ 120 1 on Ebay for only $1125. Came with XT/XTR drivetrain, Reba RLT Ti fork, RP23 rear shock, Thompson seatpost and headset, Stans wheelset, etc, etc...

    You can find a high-end used FS bike for around $1k if you are patient and a bit lucky.

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    Buying used is a good idea, especially for someone just getting into the sport is the best way to go. If they end up not liking the sport they can usually get a good chunk of their money back out of it. The same is true if they love the sport and want to upgrade to a nicer bike.

    However, I fairly recently dropped a decent amount of cash on a Epic Carbon Comp with carbon wheels. I plan on keeping this bike forever. In the future I plan to buy a new bike, I will do so, but I am planning on always holding onto that bike. Here is where buying new helps out. The main triangle has a lifetime warranty (for original owner). If 15 years from now the bike develops a crack in it then I will get a new frame for free. I also will get a crash replacement price if I happen to break the frame due to a crash.

    So yea, you are definitely paying a premium for a new bike, but in some cases it can be worth it.

    As far as nice stuff. Nice stuff is nice stuff. I started out on a walmart mongoose and rode that for 5 months. I probably spent more time working on that bike than I did riding it. My two main rides now are my 24 # Epic and my 28 # rigid SS that is set up pretty nice although heavy. I have a blast on both bikes, am more or less the same speed on both bikes depending on distance or terrain (the SS I will start to get worn out sooner and the overall speed will start to drop), and ride the same trails on both bikes.

    However, having quality of something is very nice. When you are on a quality fork or tires it is night and day difference. When you are rolling on quality wheels you can feel the difference. Having quality or just feel-good-for-you contact points (grips, shoes/pedals, seat) make the difference between a good ride and a great ride. Now, notice I didn't say $$, or super light, I said quality.

    Remember this is your hobby. I chose this hobby to spend my extra money on. Some people choose to spend rediculous amounts of money on boats and what not. Some jealous a$$hats will say "that guy has such a fancy bike and I can ride faster than him, it's not fair". While I was in Florida for vacation a couple months ago I saw a $300 million yacht owned by some Russian oligarch. They said that he never takes it out to sea because he gets sea sick.

    In other words.....the world is not fair, get over it; enjoy what you have and who you have in your life; it's ok to want and buy nice things as long as you can afford them and the general public (me) isn't bailing you out for your bad financial decisions; be happy because always being upset is dumb.

    Like someone said. It's people buying the $10k bikes that keeps pushing the R&D and innovation. It's people buying that "fat" bike as their 3rd or 4th bike that helps the industry stay profitable. It's the industry convincing people that they have to have a 650B bike to add to their stable making a company more profitable. Spending money is what keeps this whole "free" economy spinning around. When everyone shuts themselves up and stares at their money in a pile and never spends any of it is not any good either.

    Sorry for the rant.

  77. #77
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    Luck folks with good bike skills and can make good living as a pro. I envy how lucky you are with such skills

    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Sorry, but I disagree - If I am going through a steep technical section, I will get through it much better on my $5000 AM bike then I would on my $50 walmart bike.

    Cash can buy skills to an extent. Imagine how much slower your brother in law would be on your bike through those same sections.......
    Absolutely agree, a good example would be an adjustable seat post, nuff said.

    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    Yea, the noob on the hardtail will develop better skills than the noob on the FS.
    That's a myth. This kind of statement usually comes from people who's never been on a FS before

    It may be true if you are using one individual as an example. Avg riders takes a long time to develop the confidence and skills, and as it usually happen "one day they are not practicing any more, they are doing it" Confidence and skills can not be measure by slide rule method. When you are confident you are relax and committed, that's when things happens.

    Back to the Hardtail builds better skills than FS myth. It's far from the truth especially for noobs, and usually the skills do not transfer completely to FS, but opposite is true. People who's on FS can ride the same line most of the time when they get on a HT or rigid bike, they just apply extra body English. AVG noobs who start trail riding with HT usually continue to ride the same way(line) when they move to FS.

    FS offers more control than HT for noobs, the extra margin of errors would not tax new riders when they make some mistakes unlike HT. This speed up the skills building considerably and the skills transfer when you get on a HT, win-win, well it's more expensive and weight a bit more.

    I'm a golfer too 4 Handicap, I found that as you get better, yes you'd want your equipments to be more customized to you, but it also gets cheaper. A latest tech offering parameter weighting ti face low CG that shoot straight evertime, cost a lot more than a good set of steel shaft forge Mizuno blades.

  78. #78
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    I agree with the ebay option. I bought an awesome bike for an amazing price. Just communicate with the seller and get a sense of his/her honesty. Be patient, and search ebay and craigslist daily-----you'll find your bike!

  79. #79
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    Here's one for you:

    Lenz Sport :: The best full-suspension mountain bikes :: MilkMoney 3.0

    =======================================
    As for the OP, once you get to a certain price point and have a decent bike, the returns for spending lots of money on a bike generally diminish as the price goes higher. If you have plenty of disposable income, then buying a bike that is far more capable then you are is certainly no crime, and it's your money to spend. A nicer bike usually works better regardless of the talent level of the rider. It's more important to get the right bike for the terrain you ride most of the time, and get the right size, than it is to have the highest level componentry.

    Who am I to say someone shouldn't buy a more expensive bike because there are others with more talent/fitness riding less expensive bikes? What makes them the gauge everyone else has to abide by?

    If someone is asking about getting the most bang for their buck, and is working within a budget, then I will tell them my opinion. But I won't look down my nose if someone buys a nicer bike than I have, yet isn't as fast or fit. For 99+% of us, there is always someone that rides a much older, crappier bike than you do that can kick your butt up and down the hills.

    Are you enjoying riding and owning your bike, no matter what it costs? Yes? Great, lets ride, and have fun doing it!
    I researched this company and emailed for a price quote. I just received his email. For a nicely specced complete aluminum bike: $4-5k.

    Ummm I'm thinking no. There is nothing he offers that I can't buy new for way less than that. This is a single speed.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    I researched this company and emailed for a price quote. I just received his email. For a nicely specced complete aluminum bike: $4-5k.

    Ummm I'm thinking no. There is nothing he offers that I can't buy new for way less than that. This is a single speed.
    I'd be curious what made in the USA non-big brand bike you can get for way less?
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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I'd be curious what made in the USA non-big brand bike you can get for way less?
    What American made bike do you ride?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    If the bike manufacturers would make a full suspension single speed if be all over it. Until then, ill be lookin for the best bang for the buck. And right now, those bikes range 1800-2500 k


    Well there's one I know that's pretty sweet but I'm not sure that it would be in your price range or not.
    Castellano Designs | Zorro, son of Szazbo
    You can convert any FS to SS no problem. If you want to stay on the safe side then stick with middle ring size on your crank as most FS bikes are design around the middle ring.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    What American made bike do you ride?
    Seven
    Ibis
    Moots
    Merlin
    Intense
    Maverick ML7 oh yeah US made in Wisconsin.
    Kleins
    Ellsworth
    And a few more too many to list

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    What American made bike do you ride?
    Nice deflection. I never said I did and what I ride doesn't effect the question.

    So lets try again, what American made, non big brand, bike can you get for less?
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    I researched this company and emailed for a price quote. I just received his email. For a nicely specced complete aluminum bike: $4-5k.

    Ummm I'm thinking no. There is nothing he offers that I can't buy new for way less than that. This is a single speed.
    This Milk Money SS has great reviews on quality and geometry. I would love to hear of any FS singlespeed frames you can buy for less. The MM is the frame i am saving for and if i can save money on a quality frame, i'll gladly throw you some rep for the referral.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Nice deflection. I never said I did and what I ride doesn't effect the question.

    So lets try again, what American made, non big brand, bike can you get for less?
    Nice redeflection.

    What you ride does matter or you wouldn't have asked. This is a "gotcha" question. One that could derail into another long drawn out debate over foreign versus domestic manufacturing. Or if you like boutique shops like most of the companies Mimi mentioned in her prior post.

    You seem intent on calling me out over semantics and maybe I misspoke. I would live to buy America cuz I are one, but I can't afford a boutique bike like from Lenz. If you could name an American manufacturer that can compete on the scale of the foreign imports and in my price range with the specs I want, I'll be first in line to buy it. Nor do I need a 4-5k single speed full suspension not withstanding

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetboy23 View Post
    This Milk Money SS has great reviews on quality and geometry. I would love to hear of any FS singlespeed frames you can buy for less. The MM is the frame i am saving for and if i can save money on a quality frame, i'll gladly throw you some rep for the referral.
    I'm sure it does. And it's a great looking bike. But sadly it's out of my budget. If that is what you want, good for you

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    Nice redeflection.

    What you ride does matter or you wouldn't have asked. This is a "gotcha" question. One that could derail into another long drawn out debate over foreign versus domestic manufacturing. Or if you like boutique shops like most of the companies Mimi mentioned in her prior post.

    You seem intent on calling me out over semantics and maybe I misspoke. I would live to buy America cuz I are one, but I can't afford a boutique bike like from Lenz. If you could name an American manufacturer that can compete on the scale of the foreign imports and in my price range with the specs I want, I'll be first in line to buy it. Nor do I need a 4-5k single speed full suspension not withstanding
    Her? it's a user name.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885 View Post
    Her? it's a user name.
    My mistake. The Mimi threw me off. Go figure

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunner66 View Post
    That is why I started that statement with "If you are good with your money" my credit is over 800 and I have abused the same as cash deal on every major purchase I have made when it was available. I do understand some people are not good with money.
    Same here. nothing wrong with that.

    I just bought a $1,300 bike. Most I've ever spent on a bike. I could have paid cash for the whole thing. However, I put down about a third cash, and put the rest on a new CC I got specifically for the purpose. 0% interest for 15 months and 30,000 travel points. That's 400 bucks worth, which equals a free flight somewhere. Rest of the cash I used to pay off a card that was charging me interest. Relatively low rate, but still.

    I figured why shell out all that cash when I can go over a year with no interest while getting a free flight?

    Plus, I can shell out 100/month or whatever to pay it down quick, no prob, but would I want to wait that long saving to get the bike? NO.

    I had an uncle that spent years aquiring car parts and tools and classic cars to restore...he spent all that time tracking down every little part, then unexpectedly died before getting any of the cars done.I find it tragic that he never really got to enjoy all that. I want to enjoy my sh!t NOW, because who knows if I'll be around tomorrow.

    Now it's not for everyone, if you're one to miss payments than not a good idea.

    Myself, I don't miss payments. I keep a schedule and set up autopay whenever I can. This is why I have a credit score north of 800. And I know there are people that pay cash for everything, but that's not me. I can budget to make monthy payments with no problem, but saving up lump sums is always hard.

    As long as you keep it under control and at a reasonable amount (you have more in your bank account than your total card balances), I don't see having CC debt as such a bad thing.

    Just. my .02.

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    Not going to read through all the comments to see if it was already said, but your back will be a lot better off on a good hard tail then it will be on a cheap full suspension.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885 View Post
    Luck folks with good bike skills and can make good living as a pro. I envy how lucky you are with such skills



    Absolutely agree, a good example would be an adjustable seat post, nuff said.



    That's a myth. This kind of statement usually comes from people who's never been on a FS before

    It may be true if you are using one individual as an example. Avg riders takes a long time to develop the confidence and skills, and as it usually happen "one day they are not practicing any more, they are doing it" Confidence and skills can not be measure by slide rule method. When you are confident you are relax and committed, that's when things happens.

    Back to the Hardtail builds better skills than FS myth. It's far from the truth especially for noobs, and usually the skills do not transfer completely to FS, but opposite is true. People who's on FS can ride the same line most of the time when they get on a HT or rigid bike, they just apply extra body English. AVG noobs who start trail riding with HT usually continue to ride the same way(line) when they move to FS.

    FS offers more control than HT for noobs, the extra margin of errors would not tax new riders when they make some mistakes unlike HT. This speed up the skills building considerably and the skills transfer when you get on a HT, win-win, well it's more expensive and weight a bit more.

    I'm a golfer too 4 Handicap, I found that as you get better, yes you'd want your equipments to be more customized to you, but it also gets cheaper. A latest tech offering parameter weighting ti face low CG that shoot straight evertime, cost a lot more than a good set of steel shaft forge Mizuno blades.

    Gets it.

  92. #92
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    Respectfully disagree. Put one golfer on a set of those blades for six months, and the other on the easier clubs for six months. Then have them switch clubs. All else being equal, which one do you think will shoot better?

    I've got my money on the guy that has been swinging the blades. He has had to learn to be much more precise and consistent. Practice doesn't necessarily make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice has a chance to make perfect.

    Ever see Charles Barkley swing a golf club? He plays a lot of golf, but has one of the ugliest swings I have ever seen . . . consistently. I'm betting he doesn't play blades. If he did, I think he'd need two days to finish 18 holes.

    If you can learn to be fast on a hardtail, you know you can't get too sloppy or you'll pay dearly. If you can be sloppier on a full suspension and get away with it, why would you bother to be learn better technique or how to pick better lines?

    Just my opinion, and as always, there's probably more than one line down the mountain.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    My mistake. The Mimi threw me off. Go figure
    lol, no worries.

    I think it comes down to priority. If you want a nice bike you get it, if you want a nice vacation you get it, wanna eat out everyday? sure! I don't upgrade everything else at one point my priority was bikes so I set goal and get them, I slowed down but stopped completely since Feb derailing my plan for a new bike and started collecting guns, yet another expensive sport

    I'll say this, there's very little difference between $600 HT and $1000 HT going up to $1500 you'd feel the effect of better suspension and brakes. Same can be said about $1800 FS and $3000 FS. A noob can't tell the difference. That said, it's pretty simple to break it down wheelset about 1k, top shelf fork about 1k, top groupo about 1k that's 3k plus $1500-4500 for a frame depending on how your like it.

    You can do half of all of the categories mentioned above and still have a killer ride that would rip any trails you please or even less if you do your home work and buy used. Personally, I don't see the point of spending any more than 4k on a complete bike at LBS, it's much better just build it from the frame up, cheaper? NO but, above that price range you should be able to get exactly what you want on the bike.

    I'm happy when I'm on my $600 SS or any other bikes in my stable, don't care how fast I go as long as I get to go out there doin my thing.

  94. #94
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    I started off with a few friends, some on hardtails and some on FS bikes. The real difference was that some of us were beat up at the end of the day and some werent. learning skills? This isnt an RPG where you're earning points, its supposed to be fun. Eventually I got tired of getting beat up and bought a FS bike.

    The skills argument is ridiculous. If you buy a bike tomorrow and ride it for 10 years on fire roads and learn nothing, but LOVE it.. you won. Period.

    If you're the kind of person who wants to learn bike skills, you'll learn them no matter what you're on. If you just want to ride, you'll have fun no matter what you're on.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885 View Post
    Luck folks with good bike skills and can make good living as a pro. I envy how lucky you are with such skills



    Absolutely agree, a good example would be an adjustable seat post, nuff said.



    That's a myth. This kind of statement usually comes from people who's never been on a FS before

    It may be true if you are using one individual as an example. Avg riders takes a long time to develop the confidence and skills, and as it usually happen "one day they are not practicing any more, they are doing it" Confidence and skills can not be measure by slide rule method. When you are confident you are relax and committed, that's when things happens.

    Back to the Hardtail builds better skills than FS myth. It's far from the truth especially for noobs, and usually the skills do not transfer completely to FS, but opposite is true. People who's on FS can ride the same line most of the time when they get on a HT or rigid bike, they just apply extra body English. AVG noobs who start trail riding with HT usually continue to ride the same way(line) when they move to FS.

    FS offers more control than HT for noobs, the extra margin of errors would not tax new riders when they make some mistakes unlike HT. This speed up the skills building considerably and the skills transfer when you get on a HT, win-win, well it's more expensive and weight a bit more.

    I'm a golfer too 4 Handicap, I found that as you get better, yes you'd want your equipments to be more customized to you, but it also gets cheaper. A latest tech offering parameter weighting ti face low CG that shoot straight evertime, cost a lot more than a good set of steel shaft forge Mizuno blades.
    I disagree with you here. I have had a FS, and went back to HT, mainly because I live in the midwest and do not see the need. I ride pretty hard, and the steel frame and long travel fork do a lot for me (I am also in my mid twenties, so I am able to take the beating for now). I plan on moving after I pay off student loans, hopefully somewhere west where I truly enjoy riding legitmate mountains. If so, I will then go to FS.

    Riding a hardtail will absolutely develop your skills more effectively than starting out on a FS. If I miss a rocky line on my HT, I will most likely pay for it dearly. However, my buddy on a FS doesn't have to worry as much (not necessarily sloppy, but you do not have to be as precise). Basically, to be fast on technical downhills, you have to much smoother when riding a HT.

    Now, like you said, if I were to then switch to a FS and ride the same way that I do on a HT, then there really is no benefit of learning on a HT. However, if I can hit smooth lines in rocky terrain, then switch over to a FS and utilize the extra "pillow" that I have under me, thats when those skills can shine.

    Learning on a FS, and riding FS only, will most definitely make you a "sloppier" rider. Not necessarily a bad thing, but some people like to master certain skills.

  96. #96
    Rogue Exterminator
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    I have both, I love both, they both ride differently and take slightly different skills.
    I wouldn't say my learning curve was better or worse for starting out on one but of course I wouldn't know since I have nothing to compare it to.

    However, if I remember reading right, this wasn't a post about what is better to learn on. The OP wanted a FS bike because of his back. So why does it matter which is better for learning on?
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post

    Riding a hardtail will absolutely develop your skills more effectively than starting out on a FS. If I miss a rocky line on my HT, I will most likely pay for it dearly. However, my buddy on a FS doesn't have to worry as much (not necessarily sloppy, but you do not have to be as precise). Basically, to be fast on technical downhills, you have to much smoother when riding a HT.

    Now, like you said, if I were to then switch to a FS and ride the same way that I do on a HT, then there really is no benefit of learning on a HT. However, if I can hit smooth lines in rocky terrain, then switch over to a FS and utilize the extra "pillow" that I have under me, thats when those skills can shine.

    Learning on a FS, and riding FS only, will most definitely make you a "sloppier" rider. Not necessarily a bad thing, but some people like to master certain skills.
    I agree with much of what you said in general as I built up my training bike. I like to reduce and eliminate my bad habits and perfecting good forms. I know I don't speak for all types of riders but most noobs I know, can certainly benefit from extra margin of errors FS offers. More traction, skid less during braking and more control is a good thing for any noobs. It gets them out of surviving mode and may be even start to enjoy tech stuffs a little.

    HT as you put it would most likely make them pay dearly when they off their timing. Many gave up after a few rides, which is not good for our sport. If you are young(er) why not but as you get older the extra comfort and control is sorely needed

    New HT riders(avg) would pretty much stick with the default smooth line, while there are other available lines that can preserve momentum better, usually straight(er) line. I'm not talking about speed but momentum. One of my favorite trail offer a lot of these situation, going straight/down up small ledge or going around switchback. At the end of the day, $$$ aside FS can do all of HT can do but not the other way around.

    Mountain bike is a fairly new sport, the avg noobs are older much older than BMX, many can afford higher $$$ to get into the sport, there's no rule that you have to start with HT, and many like me can't afford to crash. I'd highly recommend FS bike with adjustable seatpost. I prefer to get a bike that I can spend more time using it and less time learning how to use it.

    I like the argument, we are just 2 different school of thought

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    Accepting all bets, even on any of the individual points there. The point originally posted was about developing basic skills faster, while "[developing] better skills" is vague at best. Anyways, your wager? I'm quite confident on my side and would consider any wager as a nice donation to my cause. Keep in mind that your wager reflects your confidence and commitment.
    In terms of being faster, yeah, the one on the $10K bike would likely be faster.

    However, in terms of developing skills, I'd be willing to bet that there would be no difference, or if there was, it would favor the guy on the hardtail.

    It is a moot point though because it is, for all practical purposes, untestable.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  99. #99
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    You silly people are both right. So stop arguing.

    As I said before my 2 main rides are a rigid as and a geared fully.

    On the rigid it teaches me to maintain momentum, pick smooth lines and ride smoother.

    On the fully it has taught me and given me experience of doing some tricky stuff with a more confidence that I have been able to do the same stuff on my rigid bike. So a fully helps build confidence in you and your machine which I think is very important.

  100. #100
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    having an expensive bike sucks, dude (disclaimer: I still have a few). buy cheap, live cheap.

    my favorite bike is a steel gt peace ss 29er rigid I traded a pair of handlebars for.

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