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  1. #1
    Tubby
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    You guys that can afford "Real" bikes are lucky! lol I'm trying my best to raise up some funds to buy a used FS for around $1,000 but I don't know if its going to happen. ( Incase anyone asks why I want a Fs its because I have some back probs and I really like the ride on a Fs bike)

    Is it just me or are prices for "Good" bikes really expensive. I mean I know its worth it if you are really into the sport and I can't talk because If I had the money I would buy the best bike I could.

    Its just tough to come up with that kind of money when you have other expenses.


    You guys that Have $2K plus bikes are lucky and I envy you. I hope you ride the hell out of those bikes and have a crap ton of fun on them! And you gys that have bikes that cost like $5k+ I'm very very jealous of you.

    Btw would it be possible to buy a used frame and put new components on it for the same price as buying a full used bike?

    Also is pinkbike not a popular site or does my area just suck for finding bikes on that site? I have not seen a new bike posted on it for Pittsburgh Pa in the week I have been checking daily.

    I've been checking craigslist also and found a really nice Gary Fisher HiFi ( its a matte black color is looks like but doesnt have the year listed) Does anyone have one of these? Its most likely the bike I am going to try to get if the guy still has it when I come up with the funds.
    theres also a gary fisher cake 1 for like $650 but it looks really beat up.
    Last edited by backwoodz; 04-23-2013 at 03:00 AM.

  2. #2
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    i feel you man... i've been wanting a used heckler for the simplicity of single pivot and good reviews. everyone's saying it's one of the few decent all-mountain bike to be had for around $1k back then. but for some reason, i only find the used ones being sold upwards of $1.5k which isn't making any sense... might just bite the bullet and save money for a new one next year

    on your question, you can get a used frame and put components into it although i'm pretty sure that would get more expensive and almost be as much as a new one. cheapest way is if you have decent parts on your current ride, transfer them over to the used FS frame. just need to make sure everything is compatible.

  3. #3
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    Save for your bike. That's what I'm doing. My local bike shop owners are tired of me coming in to see their merch. I'm 6-7 months from plopping down a huge stack of dead presidents one of these days it'll be a great day for us both. Ill enrich them to the tune of $2k-+ and i get a plush blingy new ride.

  4. #4
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    Ride what you can. While I do agree that bikes are ridiculously expensive (the top of the line bronson is 10k... you kidding me), but without the sales, there wouldn't be the R&D there is, and there wouldn't be the technology we have available to us today. Save as much as you can, whether thats $500 or $5000. Spend it on the best thing your budget allows, or what tickles your fancy.

    Remember, its just a bike.

  5. #5
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    I got a used hardrock for bout 100. I love the thing to death and im out on the trails with my friends. are their 2k treks and jamis awesome? of course they are but im out having just as much fun as them on a "cheap" bike.

    Plus when they wanna upgrade they kick me down their used "expensive" parts for a good deal . win win. lol

  6. #6
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    Two things:

    First, luck has nothing to do with it

    And second, and most importantly, while the right bike can make riding WAY enjoyable, the most important thing is that you're out there riding on what you have.

  7. #7
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    OP...
    Learn to build your own bike,save up,watch for sales,and...be patient.I built a sweet brand new full suspension 29er bike for about 1100 bucks.It can be done.The key is patience.Watch ebay.
    Z
    roccowt.
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  8. #8
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    You'll shop around for stuff in your budget range and improve your ride. The good thing about this sport--It costs nothing but your time and effort to become a better rider. And the components really aren't that important beyond the level you are buying tires and suspension a little more helpful.,And there are good deals out there. So here's a free video. Put the time you have while saving into the part you can't buy. For more fun on the cheap volunteer for some trail building.
    Fluidride: Like A Pro (COMPLETO) - YouTube

  9. #9
    Sleek Jamis Exile Rider
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    Quote Originally Posted by jhmeathead View Post
    I got a used hardrock for bout 100. I love the thing to death and im out on the trails with my friends. are their 2k treks and jamis awesome? of course they are but im out having just as much fun as them on a "cheap" bike.

    Plus when they wanna upgrade they kick me down their used "expensive" parts for a good deal . win win. lol
    Good for you. I currently ride a jamis that I picked up for 300 bones. I have ridden it and enjoyed it for years now.
    I'm getting older and can afford to save up for the kind of creature comforts a high end bike brings. I deserve it. One day you will get there too

  10. #10
    Dirty nerotic bike whore
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    gotta pay to play.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Bastard View Post
    gotta pay to play.
    ^^^...true that.
    ...and the whole secret is...
    like what you're doing and don't look back.LOL
    roccowt.
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  12. #12
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    If you are good with your money you can Paypal same as cash and set a 6 month budget to pay it off before the interest kicks in.

  13. #13
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    My expensive FS is 11 years old. I def cannot afford to replace it right now. But I am slowly saving for a new bike. Patience is key if you have a tight budget whether you go zarr's route and scour ebay for good deals or you spend your time saving your money to buy it off the shelf.

    Ride what you've got for now. Things like the biggest cushy tires you can fit on your bike and a suspension seatpost can help your back in the meantime

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunner66 View Post
    If you are good with your money you can Paypal same as cash and set a 6 month budget to pay it off before the interest kicks in.
    The problem with that idea, at least for me, is that there are so many bikes out there, I havent locked in on one yet.

    Ive ridden FS offerings from Specialized, Trek and and Santa Cruz. I still want to ride Giant and several others. Im not dropping that kind of coin on a bike when one might be better or I find a sweet deal later on in the year.

    Besides, If you are one minute late paying on a paypal deal or other same as cash deal, you get slapped with the full 29% APR and that aint no fun. Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it

  15. #15
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    there is a specialized epic from 2007 on craigslist for 865. Older bikes are harder to move but I bet you could get the seller down to 600. This would give you the headroom to upgrade a few things.

    I usually check my craigslist everyday to see what is new. Using an RSS reader with some search terms can make it easier.

  16. #16
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    you can get a good FS bike on ebay for $1000. ebay generally is better than CL, more buyer protections and not easier to find out fair price.

    do not buy a bike, then upgrade components. that costs more than just buying a higher tier bike in the first place.

    don't worry about 1k vs 5k bikes. It doesn't make that much difference. You'll still get beaten women 10 years older and who started 30 min after you in race on a bike that has 12lbs weight to yours. (i did). It's the rider not the bike.

    golification of bikes, allt he sponsors pay the fast riders to hock their bling. The sponsors don't make riders fast.
    Last edited by bob13bob; 04-23-2013 at 01:09 PM.

  17. #17
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    I also play golf and the obsession with tinkering and equipment is just as bad in that sport too but it's silly for noobs to want the best of the best in terms of equipment. I admit I fall in that category too but some of the best, lowest handicap players I know play with beat up 20 year old clubs. As long as you have something that fits you and won't break every time out it's silly to think a 2k+ bike will make much difference. A buddy of mine loaned me a 10k bike and it felt awesome but it didn't make me go any faster. To use a cliche it's the Indian, not the arrow.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    The problem with that idea, at least for me, is that there are so many bikes out there, I havent locked in on one yet.

    Ive ridden FS offerings from Specialized, Trek and and Santa Cruz. I still want to ride Giant and several others. Im not dropping that kind of coin on a bike when one might be better or I find a sweet deal later on in the year.

    Besides, If you are one minute late paying on a paypal deal or other same as cash deal, you get slapped with the full 29% APR and that aint no fun. Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it
    That is why I started that statement with "If you are good with your money" my credit is over 800 and I have abused the same as cash deal on every major purchase I have made when it was available. I do understand some people are not good with money.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi_GR_Biker View Post
    I also play golf and the obsession with tinkering and equipment is just as bad in that sport too but it's silly for noobs to want the best of the best in terms of equipment. I admit I fall in that category too but some of the best, lowest handicap players I know play with beat up 20 year old clubs. As long as you have something that fits you and won't break every time out it's silly to think a 2k+ bike will make much difference. A buddy of mine loaned me a 10k bike and it felt awesome but it didn't make me go any faster. To use a cliche it's the Indian, not the arrow.
    I also play golf. Its a gear head paradise in that sport. The thing is, you play better with equipment that is fit to you and not just bought off the shelf. I spent money over the cost of my current set (Mizuno forged irons) and immediately noticed an improvement on my ball striking and most importantly, I started enjoying the game more. I also took lessons after I got that set and also saw a vast improvement in my swing. Same with bikes. Buy better equipment, have it fit to you. If you enjoy something more, you will play more and therefore want to get better. So IMO its both. The indian and the arrow.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunner66 View Post
    That is why I started that statement with "If you are good with your money" my credit is over 800 and I have abused the same as cash deal on every major purchase I have made when it was available. I do understand some people are not good with money.
    Im much better and much more cautious with my money in regards to my purchases.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMacMan View Post
    ...
    Besides, If you are one minute late paying on a paypal deal or other same as cash deal, you get slapped with the full 29% APR and that aint no fun. Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it
    I agree. I take it a step further and I refuse to buy a bike on any kind of credit. I learned my lesson with credit cards years ago. If I can't afford it now, I don't need it now. Save up the cash, work some overtime. Your better off in the long run. Sometimes simple plans don't work out the way you intended when life throws a curve.

  22. #22
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coal-Cracker View Post
    I agree. I take it a step further and I refuse to buy a bike on any kind of credit. I learned my lesson with credit cards years ago. If I can't afford it now, I don't need it now. Save up the cash, work some overtime. Your better off in the long run. Sometimes simple plans don't work out the way you intended when life throws a curve.
    I'm scheduled to make at least 1500 working an extra job over the next 15 days. That will be split between vacation and my bike budget

  23. #23
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    I used to envy those lucky souls who can afford 3, 4, 5+k for their bike. Then I realized. No matter how much your bike costs, it's not gonna make you a better rider. The only thing that'll make you a faster, stronger rider is quite simply...ready for it? RIDING! Regardless of cost. My brother in law spent over 3k on his bike. Got a deal on ebay, it's actually worth over 5. Full XTR spec. I ride so much faster than him it's ridiculous. Thats how I came to this conclusion.

    Those high end bikes have high end parts hung on em. When they break it just costs that much more to replace said parts. I now have a nice simple stock SS, cost me less than 1k and I'm perfectly happy with it to the point I plan to leave it stock for awhile.
    SS ==> Nut up or Shut up!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormac View Post
    Then I realized. No matter how much your bike costs, it's not gonna make you a better rider. The only thing that'll make you a faster, stronger rider is quite simply...ready for it? RIDING! Regardless of cost. My brother in law spent over 3k on his bike. Got a deal on ebay, it's actually worth over 5. Full XTR spec. I ride so much faster than him it's ridiculous. Thats how I came to this conclusion.
    Sorry, but I disagree - If I am going through a steep technical section, I will get through it much better on my $5000 AM bike then I would on my $50 walmart bike.

    Cash can buy skills to an extent. Imagine how much slower your brother in law would be on your bike through those same sections.......

  25. #25
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    I sold my ~$2500 bike for $900 used, in excellent condition with new tires and recently serviced everything. This isnt uncommon.

    Really made me think about what I was paying for new... I dont buy new anymore.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    I sold my ~$2500 bike for $900 used, in excellent condition with new tires and recently serviced everything. This isnt uncommon.

    Really made me think about what I was paying for new... I dont buy new anymore.
    yeah, used is too good value to pass up. I could walk in a store and buy a top of the line bike. I won't because I know it's very poor value compared to used bikes.
    Last edited by bob13bob; 04-24-2013 at 01:10 AM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormac View Post
    I used to envy those lucky souls who can afford 3, 4, 5+k for their bike. Then I realized. No matter how much your bike costs, it's not gonna make you a better rider. The only thing that'll make you a faster, stronger rider is quite simply...ready for it? RIDING! Regardless of cost. My brother in law spent over 3k on his bike. Got a deal on ebay, it's actually worth over 5. Full XTR spec. I ride so much faster than him it's ridiculous. Thats how I came to this conclusion.

    Those high end bikes have high end parts hung on em. When they break it just costs that much more to replace said parts. I now have a nice simple stock SS, cost me less than 1k and I'm perfectly happy with it to the point I plan to leave it stock for awhile.
    seriously.. This is echoed so much by experienced (not me) riders to novices, but it's really hard to sink in until you see your buddies kick your butt on junk bikes or even cyclocross (me) in technical sections. Then I went to my first race and watched a chick on a heavy outdated full suspension bike kick his butt in mostly tame fireroad racing.

    talking about SS, i was surprised to see they were only about 5% slower
    sea otter cat 2 xc results: top 5 singlespeed vs geared. SS about 5% slower.
    Last edited by bob13bob; 04-24-2013 at 01:05 AM.

  28. #28
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    $50 Walmart bike vs $5K AM rig may not be the best comparison. A $50 walmart bike is a leisure bike not an MTB.
    I have just sold off my XT/XTR 2010 Epic to part fund a Nomad. The wife has a bad knee and isn't riding so I have pinched her 2007 hardrock (a mishmash of old 9 speed Deore / LX parts, an old 100mm fox fork that is on its last legs and a 70% worn out set of RaRa's)

    Ok I can't hit some of the descents as quickly or as confidently as I could on the Epic but I am still having fun and I can still smoke a lot of guys I see on their $5K+ bling bling carbon machines. There is nothing locally I can't ride on the hardrock that I could on the Epic. Looking at my lap times on the Garmin on a cuple of local XC circuits; on avg I am a bit slower than the epic but way less than 5% - although I haven't really clocked up enough time on the hardrock yet and I haven't tackled anything super technical on it. That's why I want the Nomad.

    Cash cannot buy basic skills, I don't think that a noob on $10K Scalpel is going to go any faster or develop basic skills any faster than a noob on a $1k hardtail.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleJon View Post
    Cash cannot buy basic skills, I don't think that a noob on $10K Scalpel is going to go any faster or develop basic skills any faster than a noob on a $1k hardtail.
    Would you like to make a bet on that?
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    Would you like to make a bet on that?
    Yea, the noob on the hardtail will develop better skills than the noob on the FS.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    Yea, the noob on the hardtail will develop better skills than the noob on the FS.
    Accepting all bets, even on any of the individual points there. The point originally posted was about developing basic skills faster, while "[developing] better skills" is vague at best. Anyways, your wager? I'm quite confident on my side and would consider any wager as a nice donation to my cause. Keep in mind that your wager reflects your confidence and commitment.
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    Accepting all bets, even on any of the individual points there. The point originally posted was about learning faster, and "develop better skills" is vague at best. Anyways, your wager? I'm quite confident on my side and would consider any wager as a nice donation to my cause. Keep in mind that your wager reflects your confidence and commitment.

    Haha you alright there buddy? ... I'd bet you have some sort of superiority complex, if that doesn't work for you I will bet the total amount of USD that is in circulation today. It takes considerably more amount of skill to ride a hardtail on the same exact trails as a FS, given that the trails are technical enough to push the limits of the rider on the FS.

    So yes, lets play the algebra equation game. If Noob a on the hardtail were to ride a technical trail, he would have to learn to be a much smoother rider than noob B on the FS, learning to use his body as suspension in order to maintain the same amount of efficiency over said terrain than that of noob B.

    Ultimately, noob A would develop better skills, which over time, he would be able to translate those skills to an even better rider when he later switched to a FS.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    Accepting all bets, even on any of the individual points there. The point originally posted was about developing basic skills faster, while "[developing] better skills" is vague at best. Anyways, your wager? I'm quite confident on my side and would consider any wager as a nice donation to my cause. Keep in mind that your wager reflects your confidence and commitment.
    How do you propose to quantify said wager? It would have to include a range of basic skills: ascent and descent, cornering over a range of terrains, basic skills such as bunny hops, manuals etc.....

    My point was that most of the noob mistakes I see have nothing to do with the bike - just inexperience - not breathing properly, out of the saddle mashing uphill, wrong gear selection and changing gear at the wrong time, excessive nervous braking on descents and generally no clue how to use the brakes, gripping the bars too hard, cornering with the bars rather than using the body, incorrect fore aft weight positioning when climbing / decsending. etc

    Given the use of an MTB (not a wall mart bike) a $1K hardtail is just as good as $10K carbon FS to learn this stuff on.

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    I think that every cyclist should serve an 'apprenticeship'...I'm a bit tired of seeing overweight technophiles splashing the cash on a mega-money bikes and then giving up after discovering that you still have to pedal them.

    I've just built a bike for a few hundred quid and none of my £2k bike friends can get anywhere near me because I have more experience and I'm fitter than them. I also ride just enough bike for the conditions and no more, that helps.

    My advice - Get a cheap bike and become a cyclist before you go wasting your money on a bike that isn't right for you.

  35. #35
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    If a person is sure they are in it for good,they shouldn't start with a cheapo bike though.Just doesn't make sense.Learn and get a good bike right off the bat.but like what you'
    re doing first,of course.
    roccowt.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogdog View Post
    I think that every cyclist should serve an 'apprenticeship'...I'm a bit tired of seeing overweight technophiles splashing the cash on a mega-money bikes and then giving up after discovering that you still have to pedal them.

    I've just built a bike for a few hundred quid and none of my £2k bike friends can get anywhere near me because I have more experience and I'm fitter than them. I also ride just enough bike for the conditions and no more, that helps.

    My advice - Get a cheap bike and become a cyclist before you go wasting your money on a bike that isn't right for you.
    Oh yeah - I forgot to include being unfit in the list.......

    BTW buying the Mark Cavendish Team Sky World Champion Kit complete with gloves and Helmet along with your $10K+ scalpel does not make up for you being a fat bastard

  37. #37
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    Okay, I'll play your game.

    The stereotypical noob has little to no experience on dirt and has little cycling-related fitness. They're typically the kind of person that gets interested and invited by someone close to them, or maybe rode casually on the road (on a beater/dept store bike) and wanted to try out something fun that actually held up decently on trails.

    Being on a superlight FS bike decked out with quality parts that perform reliably allows them to preserve their strength and stamina for technical sections, allowing them to focus on riding them smoothly, not thinking much about their equipment, making up for the noob's lack of fitness. The traction, control, and responsiveness allows them to focus on the significant and meaningful trail feedback. They will be more willing to challenge more technical sections, rather than cower before them. Conquering them immediately knocks down mental blocks before they even come up. You might run into another noob on a cheaper bike and think why they're having trouble, and you would be like, oh, that was easy, you "just" did this and that...

    Being on a cheaper heavy hardtail, tends to make you want to work on fitness first. With fatigue set in, your time on the trail is greatly reduced to 30 minutes, 1 hour, or other short time frames. Fatigue greatly affects your ability to control your bike in technical section, and many more situations arise where you will blame your equipment for not being up to your expectations. You are more likely to deal with mechanical failures along the way, and will tend to want to ride easier trails, or by yourself, since you do not want to hold back more skilled riders if you rode in a group. When you stop at obstacles, you imagine them in a way that actually creates mental blocks. You might even create habits that are hard to reverse later on, that are related to fatigue and minimizing the pain in case of a crash (going slow and hanging off the back of the saddle).

    I'll one-up your game, by asking for anecdotal experience from people here. I know there are a number of casual riders out there that may have transitioned from cheap HT to high end FS. I want to ask if they noticed their attitude changed about biking when they went high end. Did you become more aggressive, with a need for speed, and overcoming obstacles even faster and skillfully? Did you become more serious or passionate about biking? Did you go even bigger? Basically, was there room to grow still? How long did you ride the cheap HT before going high end? Years? How long on the new high end FS, and what's your skill level now after riding high end FS, in comparison to the years on the HT? Did you start flying off of small rock drops instead of slowly rolling them? Are you more into the DH and twisties and fun flowy sections and other technical stuff than you ever were on the HT? Taking it a step further, did anyone who follow this path of upgrades, go back to a higher end HT, maybe for XC racing, and find their skill on it was far far better than they ever were on the cheap HT?

    Why do some people want big FS bikes here? To try something bigger that they may have a mental block that prevents them from doing it on their cheap HT maybe?
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarr View Post
    If a person is sure they are in it for good,they shouldn't start with a cheapo bike though.Just doesn't make sense.Learn and get a good bike right off the bat.but like what you'
    re doing first,of course.
    easier said than done. It's hard to know if you are in it for good without doing it for awhile. I'm a proponent of getting the most value you can from your first bike = used bike. If the new rider decides to exit the sport, the total cost of ownership of a value bike is much lower than a new bike. they can resell for about the same purchase price. VS a new bike, you leave the store it loses 40% of it's value.

  39. #39
    reading comprehension wat
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    I think there are misconceptions about what "better skills" are and what a hardtail can accomplish. When people think of hardtails, they kind of bunch in dirt jump bikes, freestyle bikes, trials bikes, and basic bikes that are nice for playing on small courses like pump tracks. They think the wheelies, manuals, bunnyhops, pumping, cornering on berms, jumps, doubles, style, and trials type stuff are great skills. Most FS mountain bikes have trail oriented/balanced geo, which aren't ideal for such skills.

    What skills you do learn on a trail oriented bike are line choice, braking, positioning, gear shifting, weighting/unweighting, efficiency, balance, trackstands, speed and traction management, climbing, high speed cornering, low speed technical sections, tight sections, avoiding pedal strikes, negotiating ruts, navigation, etc. You can experience a wide variety of trail features, from visiting many different trails and sections. You are more likely to explore and cover a lot of ground. This is kind of what I call real world mountain biking. It's better to learn by doing, right? It can be as much of a mental challenge sometimes as it is a physical challenge. Starting on the higher end bike can sweep away a huge amount of mental hurdles, basically fast tracking the noob to "I can't believe you've been only riding for weeks, it took me years to be as good as that" status.

    Don't underestimate mental blocks and the issue of forming bad habits. If you attempt jumps and wreck on a cheap bike, it will take quite a bit of willpower to overcome that mental block to even try it on a big capable FS bike. Even then, you might still have to reverse bad habits and promote good form, such as staying low and centered, rather than hanging off the back.

    I'm jealous of nicer bikes too. Maybe I come up with various reasoning not to, but I don't think there's a reason to make stuff up about them. If I called out Cannondale and their $10k Scapel, saying something like this, and I would be apologizing to their engineers when I learned better. High end bikes are very nicely engineered pieces of art.
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  40. #40
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    My last point, which is my perspective on all this. You see someone good on a bike. You question how? One might think it's the rider. What if the rider has only been riding for 1 year? One might think it's the bike. What if the bike is a cheap one? There's no point oversimplifying based on that logic. What made him good is the path he took, which starts way way before he even started riding or talking. The way he grew up, the way he was taught to sense and comprehend things, and the way he was taught to behave/act as far as physical activities went. What made the bike good is years and years of refinement, and intellectuals constantly trying to find and capitalize on every little bit of performance potential, and put it in a balanced package for an intended purpose, which can be mass produced for the world to enjoy their creation.

    If I had to simplify this in terms people want to hear, on this forum, I would sum it up like this: It's both the rider and the bike. A very well engineered bike can make a rider, at least up to a point; and a rider with an upbringing that was made to do something like this can display his abilities on most any bike, though being on a better bike would get better results.
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  41. #41
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    I'm jealous of nicer bikes too. Maybe I come up with various reasoning not to, but I don't think there's a reason to make stuff up about them. If I called out Cannondale and their $10k Scapel, saying something like this, and I would be apologizing to their engineers when I learned better. High end bikes are very nicely engineered pieces of art.
    .If memory serves correct, there was one FS in the top 10 2012 olympics mtb race, and it wasn't a canondale. The rest were hardtail. super high end bikes are all weight savings eg raceday only wheelsets which are just silly to regular folk. So if $10k FS bikes can't compete in professional money-no-object races, why should anyone else buy them?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8xin View Post
    I think there are misconceptions about what "better skills" are and what a hardtail can accomplish. When people think of hardtails, they kind of bunch in dirt jump bikes, freestyle bikes, trials bikes, and basic bikes that are nice for playing on small courses like pump tracks. They think the wheelies, manuals, bunnyhops, pumping, cornering on berms, jumps, doubles, style, and trials type stuff are great skills. Most FS mountain bikes have trail oriented/balanced geo, which aren't ideal for such skills.

    What skills you do learn on a trail oriented bike are line choice, braking, positioning, gear shifting, weighting/unweighting, efficiency, balance, trackstands, speed and traction management, climbing, high speed cornering, low speed technical sections, tight sections, avoiding pedal strikes, negotiating ruts, navigation, etc. You can experience a wide variety of trail features, from visiting many different trails and sections. You are more likely to explore and cover a lot of ground. This is kind of what I call real world mountain biking. It's better to learn by doing, right? It can be as much of a mental challenge sometimes as it is a physical challenge. Starting on the higher end bike can sweep away a huge amount of mental hurdles, basically fast tracking the noob to "I can't believe you've been only riding for weeks, it took me years to be as good as that" status.

    Don't underestimate mental blocks and the issue of forming bad habits. If you attempt jumps and wreck on a cheap bike, it will take quite a bit of willpower to overcome that mental block to even try it on a big capable FS bike. Even then, you might still have to reverse bad habits and promote good form, such as staying low and centered, rather than hanging off the back.

    I'm jealous of nicer bikes too. Maybe I come up with various reasoning not to, but I don't think there's a reason to make stuff up about them. If I called out Cannondale and their $10k Scapel, saying something like this, and I would be apologizing to their engineers when I learned better. High end bikes are very nicely engineered pieces of art.
    You're signature is pretty spot on with your online persona. You're rationale is bothersome, and I feel like any educated argument with you is an utter waste of time. So I'll just save my breathe.

    OP. Again, buy the best bike you can. Take time, develop your skills. Don't fall into the thought process that you need a certain bike to be better, until that is actually the case, which will happen once you begin to develop those skills. There are A LOT of different bikes out there. They're all unique in most cases. It will take time for you to actually realize what bike best suits you and what will get the most out of the type of riding you do.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob13bob View Post
    .If memory serves correct, there was one FS in the top 10 2012 olympics mtb race, and it wasn't a canondale. The rest were hardtail. super high end bikes are all weight savings eg raceday only wheelsets which are just silly to regular folk. So if $10k FS bikes can't compete in professional money-no-object races, why should anyone else buy them?
    Oversimplification. The pros chose accordingly. They are performing at the perceived limits of current human sports performance science and favorable results can come down to strategy, planning, and preparation, including training, rest, nutrition, being familiar with the course (down to knowing the exact dirt characteristics), etc. There's a lot to consider in pro racing, if you want to get just a few seconds and a few places. Racing has quite a mental game, that requires a bit of mental composure and "peace of mind", as to not strain it. Pro choices can come down to simply what they felt comfortable on. I'd venture to say that those that agonize their choices and regret, tend to not put down consistent results, due to mental instability or whatever, but I'm speaking out of my area of expertise now. Kind of off-topic too, as it's not a thread on $10k Scapel vs $8k hardtail.

    Regarding the bet, you give up? No honor in your word? Only shameful display of baseless insults?
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

  44. #44
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    If you thought I was implying that noobs should buy top of the line products, I'm not. What I write should be taken quite literally, offering a new perspective to aid in the understanding of a topic. I provide context, to try and limit the weird ASSumptions people make, interpreting what I write as if I were a heathen. I questioned a conclusion that I thought was rather disturbing, and offered my perspective since some people felt offended that I'd challenge such a belief.

    There's merits to starting at the entry level. You can enjoy the sport in moderation, learning at a comfortable pace. If you attempt to take a shortcut to learn skills as fast as possible, you may be missing out on years of fun and memories. There's many other reasons to enjoy MTB, such as enjoying nature. Look at some of the pics out there of lush green fields, filled with wild flowers. Or maybe wild life spotting. It's not all about roller coaster thrills of going fast, looking for bumps and other obstacles in the trail, nor about the jumps and All-mountain/DH fashion.

    Someone brought up the subject of learning basics faster, as if learning fast was desirable for a hobby/sport like mountain biking. I am more of a social mountain biker. Some people I ride with have many bikes, and choose accordingly in consideration of the trail, skill level of others, amount of time we're planning on staying out, etc. I sometimes hook up with a local club too, where a beginner upgraded in order to keep up with the rest of the group. With a FS 29er, he basically transformed from 1 month of being wait up for, to keeping up and riding more mid-pack. It was an instant change. He did not say anything about his HT giving him skills to do better on the FS. The better bike just simply enabled him to be more confident and ride as fast, as to keep up with some of the rabbits in the group.

    Basically, I'm just trying to be realistic. A $10k FS bike, like the Cannondale Scapel, *will make a noob faster and allow them to learn basics faster* than a noob on a $1k hardtail, BUT a $1k hardtail will allow you to experience the fun of mountain biking for years to come. Again, repeating this for emphasis, think of getting the entry level bike, and slowly upgrading, as enjoying mountain biking in moderation. If you skip to the high end, you may be skipping a lot of potential fun in the learning process, as challenging yourself is fun. Taking out the challenge, by getting a bike too capable can make things boring and dull. There are people that go the opposite route, and go FS, and move to a HT, to get some of the challenge back, once they learn. Going cheap is another thing, as that comes with a host of reliability issues and performance deterioration due to improper care and normal wear and tear. If you buy a $$ bike, you may ride as fast as, or faster than an old timer who's been riding for decades, but they have far more wisdom and experience that you don't have, including experiences on various trails, with various companions, with lots of memories. Can't really put a price on those experiences, and can you even afford to go out and gain them after spending so much on the bike? $10k bike, stuck on a poor college guy diet for years, or $1-2k bike with road trips with friends and after-ride refreshments?
    I like to jump to conclusions, oversimplify, gossip, and participate in popularity polls.

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    So whats the wager then from a pseudo intellectual / scientific / engineering /psychogangnamstyle standpoint?
    All of your verbal diarrhea seems to come down to the fact you know one guy who kept up with you because he went out and bought a scalpel therefore mountain biking is a mental state of mind + engineering - apriori nonsense?
    ball - hole , send it home Happy

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleJon View Post
    BTW buying the Mark Cavendish Team Sky World Champion Kit complete with gloves and Helmet along with your $10K+ scalpel does not make up for you being a fat bastard
    lol

  47. #47
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    Lucky folks with 2k+ bikes, I am Jealous!

    My budget for my next bike will not exceed 2k. Why? Because I don't need anything more expensive.

    I'm not going to race to win( not at my age anyway) except for the social aspect of hanging with my friends in my club.

    I've ridden the box store bikes, and I've ridden a decent $300 ht ss bike. The low end bikes have caused me no end of worry with the cheap components like " will it ghost shift under the load of getting up this hill? Or will my chain suck occur again trying to keep up on flat sections.

    I could go on and on. 2k gets me a really nice specced fs that I can enjoy for many years. I don't know how old some of you guys are who say anyone can and should get by with ht for under 1k. Nor do I care. That's your thing. If that's what gets you riding, good for you. For me, how long do I want to keep grinding and banging on my old hard tail?

    I'm on the shady side of 40 nearing 50 now. I was talking to an older rider in my club the other day admiring his trek fuel ex he bought new 8-9 years ago. He came off the trail with huge grins. That's what I aspire to copy. I want that kind if riding for the next how ever many years.

    And those grins

  48. #48
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    I guess I was fortunate enough to have a cool local bike shop. I too didnt have the 3K to put down on a new bike. What I did do is put it on layaway. He didnt care how long it took me since he was able to store it in the basement of the shop. I also did this as the season ended. I sold my bike to put towards the new one, plus it was winter time so I didnt really miss having a bike. I followed a tight budget and got my bike as the season started
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormac View Post
    I used to envy those lucky souls who can afford 3, 4, 5+k for their bike. Then I realized. No matter how much your bike costs, it's not gonna make you a better rider. The only thing that'll make you a faster, stronger rider is quite simply...ready for it? RIDING! Regardless of cost. My brother in law spent over 3k on his bike. Got a deal on ebay, it's actually worth over 5. Full XTR spec. I ride so much faster than him it's ridiculous. Thats how I came to this conclusion.

    Those high end bikes have high end parts hung on em. When they break it just costs that much more to replace said parts. I now have a nice simple stock SS, cost me less than 1k and I'm perfectly happy with it to the point I plan to leave it stock for awhile.
    Wrong comparison. While it is the rider it's foolish to say the bike has nothing to do with it. You should swap with your brother in law and see how much faster you are and how much slower he is. That's a true comparison as long as both bikes fit you properly.

    My example would be BMXing a long time ago. My first decent bike was a Schwinn bike, mild steel frame, tuff wheels. I had it for the entire summer, never won a race but I was always just outside the top 3, 4th or 5th.
    Once my parents realized it wasn't a fad and I was doing well and wanted to continue, I got a Team Mongoose for Christmas. That next summer 1st-3rd unless I crashed. 3rd at the Vineland NJ nationals in my age group, top 50 in MD.

    So the equipment does make a difference.

    All that being said, living in a wealthy part of the country, I see a lot of people on very high end bikes that ride around a 2-3 inch log in the trail.
    Tantrum incoming
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  50. #50
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    Generally, it's much more satisfying to outperform someone with the best/most expensive/trendiest product while using your own inferior gear than vice versa, regardless of the sport. Your gear can only work as well as the engine that powers it.

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