Results 1 to 99 of 99
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mack_turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    6,726

    "I'm not going to do anything crazy"

    "Bicycling pop culture is a world of unrealistic extremes that are portrayed as normal. ... normal bicycle pursuits are often relegated to the shadows cast by the highly-publicized, extreme versions of bike-riding." thus writes Jim Thill in On Bicycle Touring in Issue 1 of Bunyan Velo*.

    It comes as no surprise that I hear this "nothing too crazy" sentiment frequently from new riders who are looking for a new bike. Working at a bike shop and volunteering at a co-op, I often meet people who want to cobble together a co-op bike from donated parts for $30 and then ride the rocky, fast trails around here, or compete in a triathlon. People who want to keep up with group rides and start racing have a budget of $600 for a road bike and can't understand why that won't cut it in the market today. I would like to better understand what this means.

    usually I hear this from people who have a limited budget, whether that budget is imposed on them by outside forces (nagging spouse, small income, bills, obligations to kids, etc), or they are just plain cheap. many are legitimately skeptical of the prices they see on bikes, but experience has shown me that you usually get what you pay for, even if all those prices (LBS and mail order alike) are a bit over-inflated. regardless of what you think of the cost of bike gear, you have to pay to play one way or another. if cycling is too rich for your blood, get into competitive chess or running. sneakers are cheaper than bikes.

    before this becomes another "mail order versus LBS thread," that topic has been discussed to death, so let's not go there.

    Thill is writing about bicycle touring in the quote above, but I think the same applies to mountain biking as well. people tell me that they want to ride legitimate mountain bike trails, but their budget only allows them a bike with Tourney components (junk) and a noodly coil spring fork with no damping (aka a "lousy pogo stick fork). if they have been watching Red Bull's Rampage events, reading Decline Magazine, or watching videos of Whistler bike park freeriding, I can see why the "crazy" bar has been set pretty high for them. they think, "I am not doing THAT, so I can just buy the cheapest bike possible and plod along the trails on it and it will be fine.

    but most mountain biking is NOT like the rowdy stuff you see in these videos, yet it's demanding enough on your equipment that most of the bikes in the lowest end of the price range are not going to hold up. I might not be flying off 10 foot drops at 50 mph after being helicopter-dropped off the top of some Rocky crag, but I want to maintain traction while climbing long hills, flowing through the trees at pace that gets my adrenaline pumping, and get a little loose on some downhills that might have some rocks and roots on them. a rider might be limiting the amount of challenge and fun he or she is going to get out of mountain biking by limiting the amount of bike they are willing to buy.

    I think a rider should consider what kind of terrain they have available to them, what kind of riding they want to do, then ask some trusted, experienced riders (or your favorite message board) "how much bike" they will need for that. then generate the money needed to accomplish that goal. sell some stuff, make some compromises, give up some wasteful habits, etc. if you want it, you will get the money somehow.

    if you want a mountain bike but you know you're not really going ride trails, don't fool yourself. you will be much better off with a solid $600 hybrid than a flimsy $600 mountain bike.

    *Awesome magazine by the way, Issue 2 just came out, for free to read online. check it out.

  2. #2
    Never Forget 9-11
    Reputation: FujNoob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    434
    Sometimes it takes riding a piece of junk to fully understand why spending a little more coin on a better bike makes sense.
    It's such a fine line between idiocy and genius.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Interesting view. Then there's the other side of things, like how many people buy much more bike than they're ever going to need, or how many people think they're taking up a new hobby and want to put their best foot forward to, in the end, never take it up for whatever reason and it sits in the garage.
    Like they say, you can lead a horse to water but ......
    In the end everyone learns what's right for them, some learn the hard way.
    And if it makes some people happy to get all decked out and show off their latest and greatest in the parking lot, who am I to judge what tickles their fancy. Just makes for a better used market for me.
    Live and let live.
    Round and round we go

  4. #4
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Condescending crap ? ... You don't have to spend thousands to have a good time, and you don't need to spend thousands to be as good as someone who spends that kind of money thinking they will perform better because of it.

    Buying an Indy car doesn't make you a World Class racer anymore than spending thousands to own, what a factory rider is given, can make you a better MTB'r.

    But I do get what you're saying about the bottom dollar bikes that are available.
    I guess that's why we all read, so often, the suggestion (@ MTBR) that a new rider buy used, and thus get more bang for their buck.

    There are many good USED bikes in the $300-$1000 range that would suit many riders.
    And,
    There are a lot of FREE - $300 bikes that will also suit many riders.

    What you ride don't mean squat

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    955
    Well said... do the same people go for a jog in their Keds? Doubtful.

  6. #6
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    Well said... do the same people go for a jog in their Keds? Doubtful.
    Some jog barefoot, and some run ... Hey it's exercise, don't knock it.

    Shoes don't make you an athlete

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    955
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    Some jog barefoot, and some run ... Hey it's exercise, don't knock it.

    Shoes don't make you an athlete
    Better for the body to go barefoot than run in a totally inappropriate shoe.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Yup, I'v said this before up in here but it's so true and obvious I have no problem saying it again.
    I just love it when a guy shows up on a beat up old clunker and all the folks with their shiny new state of the art rides are snickering, talking behind his back, or at least thinking how much better they are. Until that guy out skills and performs them without question. Then comes the inevitable, oh my shock wasn't tuned right, or my psi was off. Just gotta love it.
    Round and round we go

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    955
    That clunker was probably a quality bike in its day. Now you have big box crap that literally falls apart on the trail. Different story.

    A guy I ride with is on a 1992 Gary Fischer HT and does great.

  10. #10
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    I ride with a guy occasionally that happily rides single track on his pos single speed road bike fitted with cx tires. Funny thing is, he can drop 99.9% of the riders out here on any given day. It ain't about the bike.

  11. #11
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    Better for the body to go barefoot than run in a totally inappropriate shoe.
    Especially on a gravel road

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    2,203
    That was a fun read, thanks for the link. As for the topic at hand, you pretty much hit the nail on the head...working in a shop, whether I'm on the sales floor or wrenching, the first question I ask is almost always 'what kind of riding do you [want to] do?'

    My personal experience talking to people is that (generally) they want a mountain bike to 'try out' mountain biking, and then wind up riding it around town. A year or two later, if they're still riding the bike, they invariably want smoother tires. Not that I have a problem with that--most 'entry level' mountain bikes tend to be set more towards an upright position, and make fairly good street/around town bikes--but rather that the original desire for the bike could have been better served, as you said, by a completely different one.

    As an aside, the author of the article says that, contrary to this, you can tour on whatever you want--this is true. The penalty for failure of components (barring total handlebar/stem/wheel) on the road is pretty low, other than having to hitch a ride. The penalty of failure on the trail, trying to clear an obstacle, or on a loose slope/off camber, is far higher.

    Anyhow, I tell people this (and stand by it). Any mountain bike in the shop will be capable of most of the trails here, and certainly all of the ones you should be riding as a beginner. The catch is, you will outpace your bicycle very quickly, and to keep advancing your skills, you will need to buy another bike. So, suddenly that $200 walmart bike (or $300-something shop bike) isn't such a good bargain anymore. Yes, in most cases, you could upgrade the bike, but you'll spend the cost of a bike with better components on it than what you'll be getting, in almost every case.

    There's nothing wrong with a first mountain bike, just make it one that you don't throw in the trash can when you move on

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    960
    Good insight in the original post.

    A cheep bike can ride easy trails, even if it means hike-a-bike over some sections. That may be all the rider cares to do or can afford to do.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    955
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty $anchez View Post
    I ride with a guy occasionally that happily rides single track on his pos single speed road bike fitted with cx tires. Funny thing is, he can drop 99.9% of the riders out here on any given day. It ain't about the bike.
    for 99% of the population a better bike improves their riding...

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    955
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce in SoCal View Post
    Good insight in the original post.

    A cheep bike can ride easy trails, even if it means hike-a-bike over some sections. That may be all the rider cares to do or can afford to do.
    my six year old rides easy single track on her 20" Marin. good times

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    for 99% of the population a better bike improves their riding...
    lol
    Round and round we go

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    960
    Quote Originally Posted by LB412 View Post
    for 99% of the population a better bike improves their riding...
    For 99% of the population just *riding* improves their riding. A better bike merely hides their inadequacies as riders. Far fewer people are held back in skill development by their bikes.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,801
    Watch this then see if you still feel the same
    RIDE LIFE GRAVITY EDITION - Supermarket Bike Video - Pinkbike
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,801
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce in SoCal View Post
    For 99% of the population just *riding* improves their riding. A better bike merely hides their inadequacies as riders. Far fewer people are held back in skill development by their bikes.
    However you can reach a point where cheap equipment is holding you back
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  20. #20
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Watch this then see if you still feel the same
    RIDE LIFE GRAVITY EDITION - Supermarket Bike Video - Pinkbike
    It's always the rider ... Dude does some amazing riding on a Supermarket Bike, thus proving it ain't the bike that makes him good.

    I mean really,
    He got that good on a Supermarket Bike ... And he rode it for 6 years before it broke.

  21. #21
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    However you can reach a point where cheap equipment is holding you back
    Sorry, but the video you posted shows this to be a myth.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,801
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    Sorry, but the video you posted shows this to be a myth.
    It's not a myth. I know through personal experience it can be very true.
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,374
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Watch this then see if you still feel the same
    RIDE LIFE GRAVITY EDITION - Supermarket Bike Video - Pinkbike
    Just absolutely awesome. His parents gave him what they could, and he APPRECIATED it. And he used it.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    960
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    However you can reach a point where cheap equipment is holding you back
    True. And a supermarket bike is not an entry level bike store bike.

    The fellow in the video was exceeding the capabilities of the bike. To do what he was doing required a much better bike. If he could not afford one, he should have been doing different riding.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,374
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    However you can reach a point where cheap equipment is holding you back
    I do agree with this in Filp's case, because the integrity of the frame and the suspension etc. was able to handle what he has the skill to put into it.

    Watch the next vid where he wins the Giant and watch him torque the bike into manuals while coming out of hard turns to redirect the front wheel. That bike's feedback is definitely helping him push his riding (that his mind is the only limit of) to be able to do that.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    7,948
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce in SoCal View Post
    The fellow in the video was exceeding the capabilities of the bike. To do what he was doing required a much better bike. If he could not afford one, he should have been doing different riding.

    ????? Bike seemed to be keeping up with him just fine.

  27. #27
    undercover brother
    Reputation: tangaroo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    881
    I have been having this argument with my roommate. He wants to get a mountain bike, but literally wants to spend $175. I've talked to him over and over about, and he says he doesn't need the $4900 steed that I am building right now. He just doesn't understand what crap components are. He's thinking of buying a GT palomar, I told him not to, but part of me just wants him to get it, ride it, break it, and see why I have been telling him he needs to spend ~$600 to get a ridable bike.

  28. #28
    I ride bikes
    Reputation: moefosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,379
    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    I have been having this argument with my roommate. He wants to get a mountain bike, but literally wants to spend $175. I've talked to him over and over about, and he says he doesn't need the $4900 steed that I am building right now. He just doesn't understand what crap components are. He's thinking of buying a GT palomar, I told him not to, but part of me just wants him to get it, ride it, break it, and see why I have been telling him he needs to spend ~$600 to get a ridable bike.
    When someone wants to spend $175 on a ridable bike, I point them in the way of a full rigid used steel frame bike from the early 90s. It will make them a better rider if they have to learn on a 18 speed full rigid Kona. Now, if they want to ride gravity on a $175 bike I laugh in their face.

  29. #29
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    I have been having this argument with my roommate. He wants to get a mountain bike, but literally wants to spend $175. I've talked to him over and over about, and he says he doesn't need the $4900 steed that I am building right now. He just doesn't understand what crap components are. He's thinking of buying a GT palomar, I told him not to, but part of me just wants him to get it, ride it, break it, and see why I have been telling him he needs to spend ~$600 to get a ridable bike.
    And if he ends up riding like Filipe Perestrelo (see video link above) ... Then you'll look like a financial fool who wasted all your money

    There will always be people who are hard on bikes ... Landing hard and/or at a bad angle can destroy any bike, quickly.
    Having the skill to land softly and pick good lines will allow amazing things to occur without spending astronomical amounts of money to survive ... But, eventually, when pushed to the limits, they all break.

    Here's a whole bunch of broken, expensive when compared to what Filepe rode, bikes - Frame breaking - who's done it? « Singletrack Forum - And there's quite a few documented on this forum, also.

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    I regularly cross paths with kids on bikes pretty much pulled from the trash who ride better than the majority of mountain bikers. I've had a number of 'handmade in the USA' big-$$ frames break on me under far less demanding riding than what the kid in that video was doing. I have a few friends that have put together fully functional DH bikes for under $400. Are they loaded up with the 'latest and greatest' overpriced and soon to be outdated components? No. Do they get down the mountain fine? Sure do.

    Mountain biking is saturated with marketing victims.

  31. #31
    undercover brother
    Reputation: tangaroo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    881
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I regularly cross paths with kids on bikes pretty much pulled from the trash who ride better than the majority of mountain bikers. I've had a number of 'handmade in the USA' big-$$ frames break on me under far less demanding riding than what the kid in that video was doing. I have a few friends that have put together fully functional DH bikes for under $400. Are they loaded up with the 'latest and greatest' overpriced and soon to be outdated components? No. Do they get down the mountain fine? Sure do.

    Mountain biking is saturated with marketing victims.
    I agree that you can make is down the mountain on a $400 bike, but at what cost to yourself? There is a thrill in seeing where your hard earned money goes. I can tell you that every bike I have had over the years has been more and more expensive every time, and the ride has gotten immensely better each time. Sure, I could save a lot of money, and ride budget bikes (which I would do if I didn't have the money), or I could accept that this has become my obsessive hobby, and enjoy it to the best that I can.

    The inflation on bikes is ridiculous sometimes, but the performance difference between a $800 and a $5000 is as immense (if not more) as the price gap. I am not well off by any means, maybe I will be when I pay off my student loan debt, bust most people who knock others for riding high end bikes, probably cannot afford to ride high end bikes.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    I agree that you can make is down the mountain on a $400 bike, but at what cost to yourself? There is a thrill in seeing where your hard earned money goes. I can tell you that every bike I have had over the years has been more and more expensive every time, and the ride has gotten immensely better each time. Sure, I could save a lot of money, and ride budget bikes (which I would do if I didn't have the money), or I could accept that this has become my obsessive hobby, and enjoy it to the best that I can.

    The inflation on bikes is ridiculous sometimes, but the performance difference between a $800 and a $5000 is as immense (if not more) as the price gap. I am not well off by any means, maybe I will be when I pay off my student loan debt, bust most people who knock others for riding high end bikes, probably cannot afford to ride high end bikes.
    It can also be argued that people who spend 5k on a bike just need to justify it, especially if you're still paying off loans. It can also be argued that a cheaper heavier bike will build your skills and physical ability more. It can't be argued, or said with any certainty, that today's latest and greatest big $ items aren't going to be much less $ in a few years and become the norm however. In the end it's what works best for you.
    Round and round we go

  33. #33
    undercover brother
    Reputation: tangaroo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    881
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    It can also be argued that people who spend 5k on a bike just need to justify it, especially if you're still paying off loans. It can also be argued that a cheaper heavier bike will build your skills and physical ability more. It can't be argued, or said with any certainty, that today's latest and greatest big $ items aren't going to be much less $ in a few years and become the norm however. In the end it's what works best for you.

    What works best for you agreed, but as long as I can afford it, I will ride the best that I CAN afford, because, well I can. If a better damped fork and shox, along with a more efficient suspension design, allows me to ride better, longer, and get more enjoyment, then it is well worth the investment. However, this is a double edged sword when you see people out there who just sank 5k into a bike and you watch them cross chain and cannot bunny hop a 4 inch log.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    I agree that you can make is down the mountain on a $400 bike, but at what cost to yourself? There is a thrill in seeing where your hard earned money goes. I can tell you that every bike I have had over the years has been more and more expensive every time, and the ride has gotten immensely better each time. Sure, I could save a lot of money, and ride budget bikes (which I would do if I didn't have the money), or I could accept that this has become my obsessive hobby, and enjoy it to the best that I can.

    The inflation on bikes is ridiculous sometimes, but the performance difference between a $800 and a $5000 is as immense (if not more) as the price gap. I am not well off by any means, maybe I will be when I pay off my student loan debt, bust most people who knock others for riding high end bikes, probably cannot afford to ride high end bikes.
    The $400 bike my friend rides sold for somewhere in the $5000 range new. Works almost as well now as when it was one of the top DH frames in the world. The only 'cost' is a whole lot of extra money not wasted trying to one-up the the shiny-bike internet crowd. Remember, today's $5000 bike is only a handful of seasons away from being an $800 bike itself.

    I own a number of high end bikes that somebody paid WAY too much for a few years back, then sold at a huge loss when it wasn't the 'latest and greatest' anymore. My shed holds some nice rides from Turner, Intense, Sinister, Specialized, Premium and Trek, not to mention classics from Haro, Kona, Bridgestone, Hutch and Schwinn. Only a few of them cost me anywhere near $2k. Most were under $1k. I've got plenty of pennies in my MTB piggybank and could easily throw it away overspending to keep up with the latest trends, but that would be dumb, and leave less $$ for other stuff, like motos and muscle cars and trips and snowmobiles and a million other things that will provide much greater enjoyment than having the latest popular colors and logos under the mud on my bike.

  35. #35
    undercover brother
    Reputation: tangaroo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    881
    Buying used is one of the best ways to get into the sport. But as for what you ride, as long as it works for you, then ride it. I'm not here to spark a debate, and I don't need to justify what I ride. I don't care about other hobbies near as much, riding bikes is a way of life for me and it always will be. If you want to spend $400 or $4000, do it. But my main reasoning behind my posts was for people who want to get into mountain biking who don't understand why cyclists pay as much as they do. Some people don't care about what they ride, some do.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Yup, don't think anyone can or will argue that a dept store bike is the way to go for pretty much anyone who's going to actually ride, especially trails, but as far as how you want to spend your money to seek enjoyment, it's only relevant to that rider. Just ask a rigid ss rider.
    Round and round we go

  37. #37
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Mountain biking is saturated with marketing victims.
    Signature worthy material

    F it, time to leave again ... Freak'n audio commercials control this forum.

  38. #38
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    I agree that you can make is down the mountain on a $400 bike, but at what cost to yourself? There is a thrill in seeing where your hard earned money goes. I can tell you that every bike I have had over the years has been more and more expensive every time, and the ride has gotten immensely better each time. Sure, I could save a lot of money, and ride budget bikes (which I would do if I didn't have the money), or I could accept that this has become my obsessive hobby, and enjoy it to the best that I can.

    The inflation on bikes is ridiculous sometimes, but the performance difference between a $800 and a $5000 is as immense (if not more) as the price gap. I am not well off by any means, maybe I will be when I pay off my student loan debt, bust most people who knock others for riding high end bikes, probably cannot afford to ride high end bikes.
    Guy in the video did it for 6 years ... What's that cost ya ?

    Nevermind ... You already admitted to getting a thrill in seeing where your hard earned money goes.
    Spend it as you wish.

    Phuck'n commercials

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    172
    One the lower end bike note my spouse is riding a trek 820. She got in collage to use to get from her apartment to class in Florida. it did that Job great. last year we moved up here to PA and we started riding some of the local trails. quickly the found the shifters suck, its heavy the fork was way to stiff ect. I did a little bit of upgrading to slightly better shifters tires pedals and grips so it was more comfortable for her. But at the end of the day its still a commuter bike that she paid less then $300 for. At this point the bike is holding her back because she's not having fun fighting the bike all the time. So we've sat down planed out a budget and are now in the shopping phase for something that she can grow into skill wise and more importantly have more fun riding.
    His Hers
    2014 Trek CrossRip 2015 Trek Lexa
    2012 Trek Rumblefish 2013 Sette Reken

  40. #40
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    What works best for you agreed, but as long as I can afford it, I will ride the best that I CAN afford, because, well I can. If a better damped fork and shox, along with a more efficient suspension design, allows me to ride better, longer, and get more enjoyment, then it is well worth the investment. However, this is a double edged sword when you see people out there who just sank 5k into a bike and you watch them cross chain and cannot bunny hop a 4 inch log.
    Or get smoked by someone on a "Supermarket" bike.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by tangaroo View Post
    Buying used is one of the best ways to get into the sport. But as for what you ride, as long as it works for you, then ride it. I'm not here to spark a debate, and I don't need to justify what I ride. I don't care about other hobbies near as much, riding bikes is a way of life for me and it always will be. If you want to spend $400 or $4000, do it. But my main reasoning behind my posts was for people who want to get into mountain biking who don't understand why cyclists pay as much as they do. Some people don't care about what they ride, some do.
    I dunno if it's really a matter of not caring about what you ride. More like a matter of not throwing away a lot of dough for very little, if any, actual performance gains. I've been riding 'seriously' for a couple decades and then some, and I still don't understand why people spend as much as they do on bikes. There's a very serious case of diminishing returns once you get up over the couple thousand dollar range. Not for me to tell people what to spend their money on, but it's also good for beginners to know that a big percentage of a high-end bike's purchase price is going strictly to bling factor. Very important for bike pornographers, less so for those that don't really care about cosmetics as long as the bike functions well enough to do the job they're asking of it.

  42. #42
    Bicyclochondriac.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    13,473
    $600 can get you a mountain bike that will handle what most new riders will do on it for the first year or two. It will not hold them back from having fun or progressing as a rider.

    If someone will only try mountain biking if they can start on a $30 cobbled together bike, then get them a $30 cobbled together bike. If they like it, they'll get a better one.

    Heck, the bike that got me hooked was an almost-free 30-something pound rigid bike with cantilever brakes that were more like slow-down suggestions than brakes. It was not that fun on real trails, but showed me enough to peak my interest, so after about a year I got a $250 used bike with front suspension (Mag 21) and slightly better canti brakes. That got me through another year becoming a fully proficient mtb rider. Then I was finally ready to drop some $ on a truly nice bike. But I could have kept riding the older one and I still would have enjoyed the sport.

    I have real doubts that anyone who would otherwise enjoy mtb has ditched the sport because their first bike was not good enough.
    Last edited by kapusta; 06-14-2013 at 07:27 AM.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  43. #43
    Kitty! Kitty! Kitty!
    Reputation: GelatiCruiser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,080

    Re: "I'm not going to do anything crazy"

    A good craftsman never blames his tools.

  44. #44
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by GelatiCruiser View Post
    A good craftsman never blames his tools.
    Nice !

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,801
    Quote Originally Posted by GelatiCruiser View Post
    A good craftsman never blames his tools.
    A good craftsman uses the right tool for the job
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  46. #46
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    A good craftsman uses the right tool for the job
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Watch this then see if you still feel the same
    RIDE LIFE GRAVITY EDITION - Supermarket Bike Video - Pinkbike
    A good craftsman doesn't need a gold plated power tool to get the job done, and can express their craft to perfection with basic hand tools.

    You found a most excellent video/story to prove it

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    960
    I would counsel against a very cheep or cobbled bike as posing a risk of falling apart at a critical moment. But, I also counsel against becoming a victim of the law of diminishing returns.

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    955
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce in SoCal View Post
    I would counsel against a very cheep or cobbled bike as posing a risk of falling apart at a critical moment. But, I also counsel against becoming a victim of the law of diminishing returns.
    Well said

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    A good craftsman doesn't need a gold plated power tool to get the job done,
    But...the sales guy at the tool shop and a bunch of gold-plated tool owners on the internet told me it makes a big difference...


  50. #50
    Bicyclochondriac.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    13,473
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce in SoCal View Post
    I would counsel against a very cheep or cobbled bike as posing a risk of falling apart at a critical moment. But, I also counsel against becoming a victim of the law of diminishing returns.
    I'm not arguing with the underlying point here, but what counts as "very cheap" and/or "cobbled together"?

    Actually, what is the difference between "cobbled together" and "custom build"?
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  51. #51
    Bicyclochondriac.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    13,473
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce in SoCal View Post
    For 99% of the population just *riding* improves their riding.
    Nice! That might be my new sig.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,374
    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I have real doubts that anyone would would otherwise enjoy mtb ditched it because their first bike was not good enough.
    Spot on with this. I know for myself, I was stoked just because of the nature of what I was doing. BUT, once I stepped on the slippery slope of wanting to upgrade this or that, I was done for. For me it was putting a first generation Judy on my steel GT Tequesta, back in the mid nineties. Had awesome times on that bike, fully rigid.

  53. #53
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I'm not arguing with the underlying point here, but what counts as "very cheap" and/or "cobbled together"?

    Actually, what is the difference between "cobbled together" and "custom build"?
    Technically,
    I think many of us are riding "cobbled together".

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,608
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Watch this then see if you still feel the same
    RIDE LIFE GRAVITY EDITION - Supermarket Bike Video - Pinkbike
    I watch it. Let me tell you that this guy was stupid. Trying to take jumps like that on basic bike is dumb. I ride bike that is alot more than a garbage walmart bike, but I would never try jumps like that. I have not desire to try jumps like that on any bike. Then again all he was riding was smooth trail with man made jumps. That seem not much like mtn biking to me and more like BMX with big wheels.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I watch it. Let me tell you that this guy was stupid. Trying to take jumps like that on basic bike is dumb. I ride bike that is alot more than a garbage walmart bike, but I would never try jumps like that. I have not desire to try jumps like that on any bike. Then again all he was riding was smooth trail with man made jumps. That seem not much like mtn biking to me and more like BMX with big wheels.
    Thank you for finally stepping and being The One to define what is and what isn't mtn biking. We've been waiting for you for ages.

    Seriously though - kids sending it on crappy bikes RULE. Old dudes who are afraid to leave ground and spend way too much time on the internet ...er...do not rule.

  56. #56
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,608
    I never once saw this kid ride up a hill. The only time I saw him going up as when he was pushing the bike. Even in the 7 min video where he has the Giant DH bike.

    What is stupid. Jumping a crappy bike 5 feet off the ground. He is lucky the bike lasted as long as it did. Now the thing is that most bikes won't last taking jumps like that and when you talk about doing crazy stuff... That is it. Now will the Giant Last 6 years of abuse? Who knows. He is faster on the descents on the Giant, but so would everyone.

    If we want to get into a pissing contest we can... but I suspect I have ridden alot more miles that you have this year.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    You figure that kid is buying lift tickets, or jumping in his monster truck for shuttles?
    Or maybe his video editing company was able to figure out how f'ing boring it is to watch people climb and they wisely left it out?

    Maybe you've got more miles (I've been doing a lot of riding with my kid the past couple seasons), but I'm willing to bet I've advanced my skillset more, helped more other riders advance, and built more great singletrack. Your definition of what is or isn't mtn biking seems to be very narrow and boring. That kid is way more of a biker IMO.

  58. #58
    Bicyclochondriac.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    13,473
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post

    If we want to get into a pissing contest we can... but I suspect I have ridden alot more miles that you have this year.
    Look out folks, the penises and the tape measures are coming out
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mizzaboom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    432
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I never once saw this kid ride up a hill. The only time I saw him going up as when he was pushing the bike. Even in the 7 min video where he has the Giant DH bike.

    What is stupid. Jumping a crappy bike 5 feet off the ground. He is lucky the bike lasted as long as it did. Now the thing is that most bikes won't last taking jumps like that and when you talk about doing crazy stuff... That is it. Now will the Giant Last 6 years of abuse? Who knows. He is faster on the descents on the Giant, but so would everyone.

    If we want to get into a pissing contest we can... but I suspect I have ridden alot more miles that you have this year.

    Your couple of comments in this thread are strange. It is almost as if you are unaware of the very popular DH/Freeride sub-scene in mountain biking. Folks that ride that type of terrain and those kinds of bikes don't typically ride uphill...because that is not the point to them. They probably think you doing a 50 mile XC ride with massive climbs is unappealing too. The point is that mountain biking, as a whole, has many aspects to it. If you don't want to hit 5 foot drops and fly downhill then don't but you condescending synopsis of people who ride that style is off base. I would venture to guess that a huge number of MTBers find air time appealing...meaning you are in the minority on that front.
    All good things in all good time

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    960
    Please don't forget that mountain blink started with some guys who wanted to ride their bikes in the mountains. They had to develop skills to deal with obstacles so they could ride. They didn't ride for the sake of the obstacles. Bikes developed to help overcome obstacles. That resulted in riders being able to overcome greater obstacles. Only later did the idea of riding for the jumps and drops develop.

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    960
    It is not stupid to do a jump on a cheep bike unless you know it won't hold up.

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce in SoCal View Post
    Please don't forget that mountain blink started with some guys who wanted to ride their bikes in the mountains. They had to develop skills to deal with obstacles so they could ride. They didn't ride for the sake of the obstacles. Bikes developed to help overcome obstacles. That resulted in riders being able to overcome greater obstacles. Only later did the idea of riding for the jumps and drops develop.
    Not exactly sure how that's relevant - progression happens. At least for many of us. That's part of the draw of the sport.

    There was not a lot of climbing at the Repack races from what I gather - it could be argued that DH is 'where it all started' and all this long-grind spandexy gram-counting HRMing BS crept in from the roadie converts.

  63. #63
    I ride bikes
    Reputation: moefosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,379
    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Look out folks, the penises and the tape measures are coming out
    I bet my tape measure is longer than all of your penises!

  64. #64
    I ride bikes
    Reputation: moefosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,379
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I never once saw this kid ride up a hill. The only time I saw him going up as when he was pushing the bike. Even in the 7 min video where he has the Giant DH bike.
    Does one have to ride up a hill to mountain bike?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    If we want to get into a pissing contest we can... but I suspect I have ridden alot more miles that you have this year.
    What does amount of miles have to do with anything?

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,608
    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    Your couple of comments in this thread are strange. It is almost as if you are unaware of the very popular DH/Freeride sub-scene in mountain biking. Folks that ride that type of terrain and those kinds of bikes don't typically ride uphill...because that is not the point to them. ...
    This a thread is about mtn biking in general and what people need to simply get out on the trails and ride. What this kid is doing IS crazy stuff on a mtn bike. Stuff that only a sub-set of mtn bikers do. Look there are guys who ride trials who do crazy stuff on a bike. Are they mtn biking. No not really, they are doing Trials. Why even post here about some kid doing still stuff with a cheap bike. On the one hand that cheap bike held up well.. Right up to the point it did not. Then again 90% of people who buy a mtn bike will never do what this kid is doing. Why ride a massive DH bike to cruise the trails? Why suggest that you need a bike tough enough to repeatedly land 5-6 foot drops while the bike is side loaded on landing from doing tricks in the air. If you are going to do crazy stuff get a tough bike. If you are going to normal trail riding don't worry about it.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,608
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    .. it could be argued that DH is 'where it all started' and all this long-grind spandexy gram-counting HRMing BS crept in from the roadie converts.
    Mtn biking has always been about riding up and down terrain tackling the obstacles as they come. When I grew up BMX was all about groom tracks with man made jumps and table tops and doing tricks in the air. Seems to me all this flow stuff, banked turns and man made features are simply one way BMX tracks on an angle.

    DH biking over rough terrain is different, but in the more about bravery and long travel soaking up the bumps when you are not forced to ride that same bike up the hill. You might as well be riding a motocross bike if you want to bomb over big bumps at high speed. I have always liked the challenge to climb a hill and then reward of the descent and that it the essence of mtn biking. Riding over all terrain up and down hills. Through smooth trail or rocky trail. Open trails or narrow tight single track.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mizzaboom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    432
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    This a thread is about mtn biking in general and what people need to simply get out on the trails and ride. What this kid is doing IS crazy stuff on a mtn bike. Stuff that only a sub-set of mtn bikers do. Look there are guys who ride trials who do crazy stuff on a bike. Are they mtn biking. No not really, they are doing Trials. Why even post here about some kid doing still stuff with a cheap bike. On the one hand that cheap bike held up well.. Right up to the point it did not. Then again 90% of people who buy a mtn bike will never do what this kid is doing. Why ride a massive DH bike to cruise the trails? Why suggest that you need a bike tough enough to repeatedly land 5-6 foot drops while the bike is side loaded on landing from doing tricks in the air. If you are going to do crazy stuff get a tough bike. If you are going to normal trail riding don't worry about it.
    Well, it isn't 1985 anymore. The sport has evolved. Dismissing this as "not mountain biking" is absurd. Sorry, don't mean to be a jerk but that is the reality of the situation.
    All good things in all good time

  68. #68
    Bicyclochondriac.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    13,473
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Mtn biking has always been about riding up and down terrain tackling the obstacles as they come. When I grew up BMX was all about groom tracks with man made jumps and table tops and doing tricks in the air. Seems to me all this flow stuff, banked turns and man made features are simply one way BMX tracks on an angle.

    DH biking over rough terrain is different, but in the more about bravery and long travel soaking up the bumps when you are not forced to ride that same bike up the hill. You might as well be riding a motocross bike if you want to bomb over big bumps at high speed. I have always liked the challenge to climb a hill and then reward of the descent and that it the essence of mtn biking. Riding over all terrain up and down hills. Through smooth trail or rocky trail. Open trails or narrow tight single track.

    MTB is a multifaceted sport. Been that way for a looooong time, long before you started riding. You are simply uninformed in your statement about what mountain biking has always been. You are welcome to share what you like about the sport, but your are in no position to decide what parts of the sport are "real" mountain biking.

    Besides, what was shown in that video was a mix, it was not all man made jumps.

    You have no idea whether he was pedaling to the top. And besides, people have been working out shuttles from the beginning of the sport.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    You are taking what mtn biking means to YOU and thinking you can define it for everyone else. That takes a lot of hubris, specially from a guy whose bike spent 8 of the past 10 years collecting dust while you missed all that progression. Take it from someone that's been at this game awhile, your attitude is limiting your appreciation of the sport. Relax. Learn how to do a wheelie, or catch some air. Rent or borrow a DH bike and try out some lift-accessed riding. Hit a skatepark and see if you can figure out how to drop in to a bowl or do an X-up. Open your own horizons a little and you'll learn to appreciate what others are doing more.

    Or keep being all rigid and uptight and going around trying to tell people they're doing it wrong. Guys like that have always been part of mtn biking too. Just not a good part.

  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,608
    This is how this tread started out.

    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    "Bicycling pop culture is a world of unrealistic extremes that are portrayed as normal. ... normal bicycle pursuits are often relegated to the shadows cast by the highly-publicized, extreme versions of bike-riding." thus writes Jim Thill in On Bicycle Touring in Issue 1 of Bunyan Velo*.


    ...

    but most mountain biking is NOT like the rowdy stuff you see in these videos, yet it's demanding enough on your equipment that most of the bikes in the lowest end of the price range are not going to hold up. I might not be flying off 10 foot drops at 50 mph after being helicopter-dropped off the top of some Rocky crag, but I want to maintain traction while climbing long hills, flowing through the trees at pace that gets my adrenaline pumping, and get a little loose on some downhills that might have some rocks and roots on them. a rider might be limiting the amount of challenge and fun he or she is going to get out of mountain biking by limiting the amount of bike they are willing to buy.

    This video of this kid riding is exactly what this post started attacking. The idea that what he was doing represnted mtn biking. And that if you don't ride like that you are not really riding.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  71. #71
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Yea, well ... I got a flat rear tire on the Fatty ... Must have happened yesterday, so there

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    This is how this tread started out.




    This video of this kid riding is exactly what this post started attacking. The idea that what he was doing represnted mtn biking. And that if you don't ride like that you are not really riding.
    Completely wrong, again.

    The OP never 'attacked' any sort of riding at all, nor did he ever try to define what was or wasn't mountain biking based on very limited experience with the sport. Only YOU did that.

    The OP told of his experience where people see high level riding in videos, etc, and figure they aren't going to be riding at the level, so they really don't need an expensive (to them) bike. The opinion of the OP was that they actually do need an expensive (to them) bike even if they're not going to be doing anything but JRAing the local park trails. The video shows by example that this is not necessarily the case. If that kid can ride like at that level on a total POS, then it goes to show that yes, the bike co-op people can go out and hit the trails on their $50 POS bikes and have a hell of a lot of fun. Just like you can go out and ride happily on your old rig, nevermind that a certain percentage of the people on this site would probably consider it barely dirt-worthy. And since they put in more miles than you do, they get to make such determinations, obviously.

    Furthermore, if you actually go back and read the article, the point is that most DON'T need top of the line equipment because they're not likely to be doing extreme sorts of stuff. The OP seems to disagree with that, going so far as to say that skimping on equipment hinders one's enjoyment and progression. So are you now agreeing with that, and planning to upgrade to a modern bike and make some progress? You seem to be all over the place. That happens when you spend too much time on forums.

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,801
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    This is how this tread started out.




    This video of this kid riding is exactly what this post started attacking. The idea that what he was doing represnted mtn biking. And that if you don't ride like that you are not really riding.

    I think you missed the whole point. It started with the point that the hucking you see on videos is not the norm and even though that isn't the norm, you can't 'mountian bike' on a cheap bike.

    The video I posted was to basically say, not only can you 'mountain bike' on a cheap bike, you can huck as well.

    Please point me to the election that made you speaker for all mountain bikers?

    Based on your posts so far, you sound like the guys I see on the trails and wonder they bother, might as well ride a path instead.
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    430
    Here are instructions on how to send smoke signals.

    HowStuffWorks "How to Send a Smoke Signal"

    I use this method to communicate as it works and is cheap. I have spare cash and could easily throw it away overspending to keep up with the latest trends like a smartphone, but that would be dumb, and leave less $$ for other stuff like shiny new MTB components

    Sent from the mountains using smoke...

  75. #75
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    I like smoke signals, but can't seem to differentiate via smoke suggestion, between putting slime in a tube, and going tubeless ... Oh that sounds dirty !!!

    Here's to,
    Pre-BMX, Balls to the walls riding ... Before all these fancy bikes existed, and decades before Accept

  76. #76
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,608
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    ...Based on your posts so far, you sound like the guys I see on the trails and wonder they bother, might as well ride a path instead.
    You have no idea what trails I ride and how I ride them. Jumping is not the end all of mtn bike riding. I have been riding long enough to know what I want to ride and what I don't. I know what can ride and what is not worth the risk of crashing. I often ride rocky terrain with steps and drops, long steep loose climbs and plenty of stuff where you need to work the bike at low speed to clear. I prefer to ride a 26" HT over most of this stuff because I value a nimble light bike and that I can work over the technical stuff. I don't care to run really fast down hill, but I will do DH runs as fast I am comfortable with and will jump a water bar here and there. I have done two mtn bike races (first one 24 miles and 2000 feet of climbing and the 2nd 30 miles and 4000 feet of climbing). I finish both better than mid pack overall. That said I am not racer and despite fire road riding, but realize that it can be part of longer rides.

    The simple fact is that for most riders even the simple cheap walmart bikes are perfectly fine to start with. Ride them for all they are worth as they won't collapse under you. Unless you trying to be mr hero taking 5-10 foot jumps in the air. If you just trail ride it will be fine. Entry level starter mtn bikes from a reputable LBS will give you bike that can handle most riding. I have taken my 98 Mongoose (bough at an LBS not walmart) over many trails in Arizona and Moab and it never let me down. It was heavy, but it was also durable. I upgraded my bike to get a lighter one and while I did this bike does not allow me to ride stuff I could on on the old mongoose. Today still have that bike and use it as a loaner for anyone wanting to ride. It may not be the fastest bike around, but most rider will give up long before the bike does.


    That is my point. The kids that jump and fly through the air may look cool, but a really a small sub-set of the mtn biking community. Buying a bike to do just that missing reality. The reality that most people can't do it. Most people don't want to get hurt learning to stick these landings. I have no desire to prove I can jump like that because I see no reward. One mistake and it will hurt really bad. If you want to do that fine, but it is not representative of most mtn bike riding that gets done.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  77. #77
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    The simple fact is that for most riders even the simple cheap walmart bikes are perfectly fine to start with. Ride them for all they are worth as they won't collapse under you. Unless you trying to be mr hero taking 5-10 foot jumps in the air.
    Well, there ya go !
    Just remember that before all the fancy (expensive bikes) ... People still did crazy things on what they had/was available.

    Dangerous ?
    For sure !
    More dangerous than doing it on a fancy bike ... I kind of doubt it.

    FWIW,
    The Schwinn Barracuda (pre-Stingray (pre-welded on kickstand)) was welded back together 3 times, before the Mongoose found me.
    Moto-Mags Rule, and 5-10 foot jumps (drops) were a daily thing

    Ever rode off a roof ?
    Quite the thrill ... Especially when there is no swimming pool to land in.
    Scottsdale (AZ) PD hated the crew I ran with in the 70's.
    Bike ditch'em at the school; was a glorious event ... Go ahead, try to catch me/us ... You're radio can't keep up with our awesomeness ... LOL

  78. #78
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Stupid ... I know !

  79. #79
    Bicyclochondriac.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    13,473
    OK, now we are arguing about what we are arguing about. It's probably time to stop and take a breath.

    I think folks here might disagree on less than they realize. I think much of the arguments here are coming from the fact that the OP's points were somewhat vague and meandering, with a few stops along the way, and different people are responding to different points.

    If JoePAs's point is that the kid in the video is doing is NOT doing what most people starting off are doing, he has a good point. In other words, people saying "I'm not going to do anything crazy" are not going to be doing what the video is showing. At least I think now that is what he is saying. I think he is also adding some tangential stuff (like what real mtb has always been) that is causing his point to be missed as we argue with him about stuff that is really beside the point.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    66
    This is absolutely spot on. My own experience is that as I started to ride, and began to push myself, I really started to enjoy mountain biking more and more, which led me to seek out more challenging rides. While I started out with what most consider is a pretty good starter bike, a Giant Talon 0 (2012), now that I am riding harder and challenging myself more, the limitations of the bike are starting to become glaringly apparent-particularly the fork and the brakes. While the bike is still capable of riding most of the local singletrack, and the orange groves by my home, as well as some of the desert and forest trail riding. I have quickly started to learn why people can and do buy more expensive bikes, or spend a lot of $$$ to upgrade. That said, I am going to continue riding what I have, and beat the hell out of the bike and myself in the process, while I set aside some dough for a new bike. There will always be the conundrum of your skills versus the capability of the bike. If I had to do it all over again, I would have bought a high quality used bike for $600.-$700.00, and then had the brakes and the fork serviced, and installed new cables and tires. Live and learn.

    Based upon my own experiences (which includes a lot of hard falls from the bike), there is a certain minimum in a bike that you need in order to start-but it also depends on you, your physical condition, and the local conditions that you have been riding. The part above: "The catch is, you will outpace your bicycle very quickly, and to keep advancing your skills, you will need to buy another bike." is absolutely true. However, the reverse is also true, which is that if you don't ride, and you don't push yourself, then the money you spent is wasted, and will only benefit someone like me who will buy that expensive bike that you don't ride anymore.

    Knowing what I know now. I would have sought out some experienced riders, and gotten some advice. I have joined a group that rides 3 times a week, and has a lot of guys that have been riding for years, and have gotten a lot of great advice. You can bet that before I buy my next bike I'll be talking to these guys and getting a lot of input.

    Quote Originally Posted by wschruba View Post
    That was a fun read, thanks for the link. As for the topic at hand, you pretty much hit the nail on the head...working in a shop, whether I'm on the sales floor or wrenching, the first question I ask is almost always 'what kind of riding do you [want to] do?'

    My personal experience talking to people is that (generally) they want a mountain bike to 'try out' mountain biking, and then wind up riding it around town. A year or two later, if they're still riding the bike, they invariably want smoother tires. Not that I have a problem with that--most 'entry level' mountain bikes tend to be set more towards an upright position, and make fairly good street/around town bikes--but rather that the original desire for the bike could have been better served, as you said, by a completely different one.

    As an aside, the author of the article says that, contrary to this, you can tour on whatever you want--this is true. The penalty for failure of components (barring total handlebar/stem/wheel) on the road is pretty low, other than having to hitch a ride. The penalty of failure on the trail, trying to clear an obstacle, or on a loose slope/off camber, is far higher.

    Anyhow, I tell people this (and stand by it). Any mountain bike in the shop will be capable of most of the trails here, and certainly all of the ones you should be riding as a beginner. The catch is, you will outpace your bicycle very quickly, and to keep advancing your skills, you will need to buy another bike. So, suddenly that $200 walmart bike (or $300-something shop bike) isn't such a good bargain anymore. Yes, in most cases, you could upgrade the bike, but you'll spend the cost of a bike with better components on it than what you'll be getting, in almost every case.

    There's nothing wrong with a first mountain bike, just make it one that you don't throw in the trash can when you move on

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post

    The simple fact is that for most riders even the simple cheap walmart bikes are perfectly fine to start with. ...

    ...The kids that jump and fly through the air may look cool, but a really a small sub-set of the mtn biking community. Buying a bike to do just that missing reality. The reality that most people can't do it.
    On the flip side...The guys that regularly crank through 1000s of feet of elevation in a ride are really a small sub-set of the mtn biking community. Buying a bike to do just that missing reality. The reality that most people can't do it.

    If you think about it, it's very likely that most of us know a LOT more riders that jump their bikes on a regular basis than climb up actual mountains with them. Which really means nothing at all with regard to their classification as mtn bikers. There're almost as many ways to skin that cat as there are riders.


  82. #82
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    If you ride a bike, you ride a bike ... How you ride the bike, and what you call yourself, is your own business.

    Don't try to "skin the cat" ... It's just not worth attempting, and you'll ultimately look a bit foolish, if you do so publicly.

  83. #83
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    This thread has turned into such an ego retard contest it's comical. Along with some great words of wisdom. Tools, craftsmen and skinning cats, wtf ?
    Round and round we go

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    68
    I just got the 2013 Specialized Camber. More than I wanted to spend, but worth every penny so far! I was riding the NEXT Power Climber. It had a bent frame, bent handle bars, 2 working gears, and 1 working brake. I had ridden it for 2 yrs on trails. It was getting to the point where it was new bike, or get really hurt again. I took the new bike route. But I can see my abilities improving. So in my case, it was the bike holding me back.

  85. #85
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by CrashDummy31 View Post
    I just got the 2013 Specialized Camber. More than I wanted to spend, but worth every penny so far! I was riding the NEXT Power Climber. It had a bent frame, bent handle bars, 2 working gears, and 1 working brake. I had ridden it for 2 yrs on trails. It was getting to the point where it was new bike, or get really hurt again. I took the new bike route. But I can see my abilities improving. So in my case, it was the bike holding me back.
    Go figure !
    You said it was broke

    Kind of like how a flat tire will slow you down.

    Congrats on the new bike ... Enjoy !!!

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6,801
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    Go figure !
    You said it was broke

    Kind of like how a flat tire will slow you down.

    Congrats on the new bike ... Enjoy !!!
    It's the rider, not the flat.
    OG Ripley v2
    Carver 420 TI

  87. #87
    Yes, that's fonetic
    Reputation: whoda*huck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,897
    How enlightening this has been. I'm now going out to not mountain bike off a few jumps. Thanks jopaz for setting me straight...

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mack_turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    6,726
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    A good craftsman doesn't need a gold plated power tool to get the job done, and can express their craft to perfection with basic hand tools.
    a good craftsman can work with a $10 hammer, but a Fisher-Price plastic hammer is just not going to cut it.

    I never said that anyone has to buy a $10,000 carbon 5" travel XTR-equipped mega bike to tackle their local dirt path. but a $300 steel hardtail with flimsy components is not going to last more than a few months. there is a middle ground.

    Filipe Perestrelo has far, far more patience and willpower than anyone I know. more power to him, but he's lucky he didn't get hurt far worse and far earlier than he did at the end of that video. given the option, most people in first world countries would be foolish to ride a bike like that.

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    960
    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    a good craftsman can work with a $10 hammer, but a Fisher-Price plastic hammer is just not going to cut it.
    As far as craftsmen, in Roatan I saw a craftsman use a "table saw" consisting of a Skill-saw bolted upside down to a sheet of plywood and a fence which was just a board clamped in place with "C-clamps" make six-panel doors that I could not duplicate on my Delta, with a top-of-the-line blade and fence, all precisely aligned. It was wonderful to behold and terribly frightening as I figured the thing would kill him.

    As far as bikes, a $300 bike should be able to handle all sorts of trails, so long as there are no jumps or serious drop-offs. Filipe even proved such a bike could do at least a few jumps and drop-offs.

    BTW: The big-box stores have tons of liability insurance for when one of their mountain bikes comes apart when used as a mountain bike can be expected to be used.

  90. #90
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mack_turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    6,726
    the point I am making (I was just about to move out of state when I started this thread and have been absent), is-

    people have a perception that normal mountain biking is what they see in freeride videos and have no interest in this sort of mayhem, so they justify buying the bare minimum bike that is not designed for any sort of aggressive XC riding. some people have the patience and luck needed to perform and enjoy such a bike without it falling apart in short order.
    if you enjoy riding a cheap, flimsy bike, you are special. but most don't and therefore set themselves up for failure to enjoy riding because they are cheap.

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    This thread has turned into such an ego retard contest it's comical. Along with some great words of wisdom. Tools, craftsmen and skinning cats, wtf ?
    Metaphors can be tricky when picking up a second language.
    You're doing very well in general though; keep at it.

    fwiw, I'm not sure how it is where you come from, but these days in the US, the 'r' word is considered by many to be about as acceptable is the 'n' word. Might want to drop it from your daily use rotation so as not to be seen as a total ******* by many.

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    the point I am making (I was just about to move out of state when I started this thread and have been absent), is-

    people have a perception that normal mountain biking is what they see in freeride videos and have no interest in this sort of mayhem, so they justify buying the bare minimum bike that is not designed for any sort of aggressive XC riding. some people have the patience and luck needed to perform and enjoy such a bike without it falling apart in short order.
    if you enjoy riding a cheap, flimsy bike, you are special. but most don't and therefore set themselves up for failure to enjoy riding because they are cheap.
    To some, there's added enjoyment in their thriftiness.
    Most important to get them out on any POS and turning the cranks as a first step. They can always upgrade later if they get into it at all.

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mack_turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    6,726
    true, I guess getting someone on a bike is better than leaving them sitting on the couch because they have been convinced by a bike shop dingbat that they need to spend at least $4000 to have fun. my point is that people would do themselves a favor by stretching their budget just a little past their comfort zone and probably be pleasantly surprised.

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,447
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Metaphors can be tricky when picking up a second language.
    You're doing very well in general though; keep at it.

    fwiw, I'm not sure how it is where you come from, but these days in the US, the 'r' word is considered by many to be about as acceptable is the 'n' word. Might want to drop it from your daily use rotation so as not to be seen as a total ******* by many.
    So is it "t" for troll now too? I ask because you seem like the expert and then a tool can't be a "t" also right?

    Since you wanna get personal and give some expert advice again, this time I'll do the same. You might wanna lay off the personal attacks. Being a newbie here you might find this stuff exciting, and I can't speak for everyone here but I'd think that these type of "r" ego contests grow boring, especially when they have nothing useful to add, and imo just degrade the site. Maybe head over to the off camber forum where that's a little more accepted, expected and even embraced by some.
    I owe you no explanation but that was the point of my post, and I couldn't care less if some people think I'm an ******* because of it. Sometimes, like now, I just feel like something needs to be said.
    Don't expect too many more feedings from me.
    Last edited by theMeat; 06-19-2013 at 08:42 AM.
    Round and round we go

  95. #95
    Bicyclochondriac.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    13,473
    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    the point I am making (I was just about to move out of state when I started this thread and have been absent), is-

    people have a perception that normal mountain biking is what they see in freeride videos and have no interest in this sort of mayhem, so they justify buying the bare minimum bike that is not designed for any sort of aggressive XC riding. some people have the patience and luck needed to perform and enjoy such a bike without it falling apart in short order.
    if you enjoy riding a cheap, flimsy bike, you are special. but most don't and therefore set themselves up for failure to enjoy riding because they are cheap.
    Had you made your initial post this concise, this thread would have been half as long

    I think that most people will agree with the concept that some people (new to the sport) need a better bike than they think they do* . However, disagreements will come about in exactly what constitutes "too cheap". Since you are not really specifying it yourself, that leaves a lot more room for people to argue with you that might not even disagree.

    What is "cheap"? We likely agree that a $150 Walmart FS is not going to cut it, but what about something like a $550 Trek 3700? I'd say "yes" for most riders starting off.

    Anyway, you make a good point, one which I have tried to make to folks I know trying to get off too cheap.

    (*For some on these boards the problem is just the opposite)
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  96. #96
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    my point is that people would do themselves a favor by stretching their budget just a little past their comfort zone and probably be pleasantly surprised.
    Definitely agree with you there. Some people are just really tight with their dough; what can ya do? If you're gonna be super-cheap, there are consequences. Not riding at all doesn't have to be one of them. Riding a shitty bike, well, buess that just goes with the territory.

  97. #97
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Cheap, Crazy ... Both are relative.

  98. #98
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    ....it's okay for me to label people ego-driven retards and they should just accept that without comment, cuz I spend an excessive amount of time on mtb forums, but don't nobody denigrate in return...
    Wow, thanks for the tips. The internet is very new to me.

    Please. If you're gonna dish it out, you're gonna have to take it too.
    Or, I heard a rumor of this thing where you can put people on an 'ignore' list.
    I'd be honored to be on yours.

  99. #99
    Merendon Junkie
    Reputation: abelfonseca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,021
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce in SoCal View Post
    As far as craftsmen, in Roatan I saw a craftsman use a "table saw" consisting of a Skill-saw bolted upside down to a sheet of plywood and a fence which was just a board ....
    Are you talking about Roatan, Honduras Bruce?

Similar Threads

  1. Who rides with "crazy" wide handlebar?
    By Dion in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 03-17-2012, 01:06 AM
  2. Pinegrass Ridge (and "Crazy Chasm")
    By ward in forum Washington
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-02-2011, 10:49 PM
  3. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-11-2011, 02:13 PM
  4. RR: Selah "Crazy 8"- mixed results
    By verslowrdr in forum Washington
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-02-2011, 10:55 AM
  5. Crazy "urban DH" video...
    By The_Mickstar in forum Downhill - Freeride
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-03-2011, 08:56 PM

Members who have read this thread: 1

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •