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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by keith421 View Post
    Can someone explain this deal to me? If I buy say a Giant Revel 1, that comes with a Fork SR Suntour XCM V3, 100mm Travel, what does this do for me? I can upgrade to what forks and whats the reduced price?
    Quote Originally Posted by blammo585 View Post
    I've heard back. You can get a 29" Epicon LO R Qlc White for $250.
    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    You should email Nick.
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  2. #52
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    Post deleted.
    Last edited by eff; 01-22-2013 at 06:09 AM. Reason: Delete

  3. #53
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    Hi everyone, I actually email Nick few days ago and he answer me so, if that can help someone, here's my email and his answer...

    Hi, I just saw on the MTBR forum that suntour offers to upgrade a low level fork for a higher one for a low price. I want to know if it still on, if it's also good for Canada and if so, how it works? I'm planning on buying a new bike in few weeksand this program might help me decide.

    Thank you


    Hello,



    Thanks for your email in regards to our Customer Loyalty Upgrade program. Attached is documentation of the specifics of the program.



    Best regards,



    Nick Hannah-Moore

    Service and Warranty

    SR Suntour North America, Inc.

    14511 NE 10th Avenue, UNIT E
    Vancouver, WA 98685



    PH: (360) 737-6450

    Email: nmoore@srsuntourna.com

    Skype: srsna.nick

    Web: SR SUNTOUR Cycling



    Warranty claims and support can now be processed more effectively through our new website. Please visit it and let us know what you think!



    SR Suntour North America | // SR Suntour North America / Warranty & Service Center


    And here the attach file:



    SR Suntour Customer Loyalty Upgrade Program Guidelines

    SR Suntour North America is excited to launch a new program geared towards its North American customers. The intention of this program will allow the end user to upgrade his/her own suspension fork to something that will align better with their riding style and overall expectations than their current suspension fork.
    To participate in this program consumers are encouraged to visit the shop in which they purchased the bicycle from to make sure that the necessary upgrades make sense and that the appropriate fork is ordered to fit the bicycle and its intended use. Dealers should contact SR Suntour North America for product availability and ordering.
    For consumers that do not have the ability to work through a local dealer they are welcome to contact us directly to participate in the program and discuss fitment, pricing and product availability.
    To be eligible and qualify for the Customer Loyalty Upgrade Program one must provide the following:
    • Serial number of current SR Suntour fork
    • Receipt of existing fork and or bicycle in which the fork came stock
    • Agreement that the fork will not be resold to a 3rd party

    Forks currently available through this program include the following SR Suntour models
    • Raidon LO R Air Disc Blk 26” $150.00
    • Raidon LO R Air Disc Blk 29” $175.00
    • Epicon TAD 15Qlc 150-110 Disc Blk/White 26” $250.00
    • Epicon LO R 15Qlc White 29” $275.00
    • Axon RL 15Qlc Blk/White 26” $300.00

    SR Suntour North America 14511 NE 10th Ave Unit E Vancouver WA 98685 Phone: 360-737-6450

  4. #54
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    Ugh...I can't decide between the Raidon LO R Air Disc Blk 29” and the Epicon LO R 15Qlc White 29”..


    I don't really need the Epicon, but that's a damn good price for one of their higher end forks. Does anyone have any experience with this fork?

    <s>Are they both axled?</s> Nevermind, I see only the Epicon is axled.

    Does either come with a remote lockout?
    Last edited by Krunk_Kracker; 01-23-2013 at 04:16 PM.

  5. #55
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    Just got a bike with a suntour for, perfect!

  6. #56
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    If you;re thinking about the Epicon, Nick at Suntour is the guy to talk to. I believe he rides that fork set at 110.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    If you;re thinking about the Epicon, Nick at Suntour is the guy to talk to. I believe he rides that fork set at 110.
    I want it but it looks like it's only offered in a 15QR through axle... For me to use that, I'd have to upgrade my wheelset.

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  8. #58
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    Looks like the only one without a thru axle is the Raidon.
    Is this true or am I missing something?

    I may upgrade to a tru axle hub on my HT anyways so I can swap parts between the bikes but just want to see what else is available.

  9. #59
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    so in order to upgrade the fork you have to upgrade front hub as well to a thru axle? So it is not a simple skewer?

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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krunk_Kracker View Post
    I want it but it looks like it's only offered in a 15QR through axle... For me to use that, I'd have to upgrade my wheelset.
    You need a front wheel with caps you can change. This upgrade to a light front wheel and tire will be as major as the fork. I built my own with an ArchEx rim DtSwis SuperComp spokes and nips and a ZTR hub. The Park TM-1 gauge is what I needed.
    That wheel will go on to any future bike. This is worth it because no bike until you get to $4-6K comes with decent wheels.
    Last edited by eb1888; 01-26-2013 at 06:17 AM.

  12. #62
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    I'm still trying to figure out how much my stock fork weighs and I can't find it anywhere on Suntour's site. It's the XCT V3 LTD 29er. Anyone know? I see the Raidon comes in (I think) at 2145gm or so...Just curious how much weight I'm going to save WHEN I go with the Raidon.

  13. #63
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    Honestly if Suntour wants to up their image they need to get rid of the XCT completely.
    Most peoples first and often only experience with a Suntour fork is what comes on their budget bike. If that fork was the XCT and they rode anything more then gravel roads where they did not need a fork to begin with, then their experience was a bad one and in their mind this means Suntour makes junk.

    My first bike had an XCT and it was nothing but a glorified pogo stick.
    I realized it was a budget bike at a budget price and they slapped the cheapest piece of crap on the bike to make it look like the higher end bikes. Even though this was not a high end bike, it was not a Walmart bike either (although I don't know if it was much better than a walmart bike).

    My next bike was also a budget bike but came with the XCM.
    Although this is still a budget fork used to sell the bike at an affordable price with suspension, there is a HUGE difference between it and the XCT.
    As far as budget forks go on budget bikes, the XCM is an admirable choice and not a complete embarrassment to the company.

    All that being said, I can not see there being much manufacturing cost difference in the XCT and the XCM. I might even guess that if you dropped the XCT and started making more XCM's the cost of manufacturing the XCM would go down.

    At the very least, if you insist on continuing making the XCT then at the very least take your name off it so that gawd awful piece of junk is no longer associated with it.

    I still plan on upgrading the XCM as I do need more fork.
    However, if my only experience had been the XCT I probably would not even have considered Suntour as an option even with discounts being offered.

  14. #64
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    ^^Didn't you just start riding recently? You've got an awful lot of opinions for someone who hasn't been around Mountain Bikes very long.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    ^^Didn't you just start riding recently? You've got an awful lot of opinions for someone who hasn't been around Mountain Bikes very long.
    Look man, I am not trying to start anything here so please don't. There really is no point in you carrying our differences from another thread in to this one.


    I didn't say anything bad about Suntour. I have ridden both forks I mentioned quite a bit and have experience with both. Yes, I am a newer rider however, I understand suspension quite well from years racing both cars and motorcycles.

    That being said, as a newer rider and knowing that the XCT was junk from the very first ride, that should be more important to them then the experienced guy who has ridden $1k forks and steps down and tries it out.

    Now if you have spent some time on the XCT and would like to disagree with my opinion of it then go ahead. Otherwise I have no other reason to believe you posted that other than to try and troll me in to an argument.

  16. #66
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    First, you took a personal shot at me in a PM and I don't appreciate it. My dislike of you goes beyond just one thread. Second, your comments above were completely inappropriate, like many of your other posts.

    Third, Suntour does not choose what fork to put on a bike. Suntour builds forks and offers them for sale to bike brands. You have no idea how much the manufacturing costs are of one over another. The brands are who choose to put a recreational trail riding fork on their recreational trail riding bikes to keep costs down. If Suntour could build a better fork for the same cost, they would.

    The XCT is not complete junk. I've ridden bikes with an XCT fork and it does what it was designed to do.

    Compared to the fork I have on my bike, the XCT doesn't perform as well, but I don't go around calling it complete junk and desparaging it. If I were like you, I would go around saying your bike is complete junk and your brand shouldn't make your bike because it is bringing the brand down.

    I think there are a lot of people who expect an RTR fork to perform in a way it wasn't designed and I also think there are a lot of new riders who blame their equipment for their shortcomings.

    If you're riding an XCT, or any fork for that matter, that doesn't suit your needs, buy something different and shut up.

    This company has gone out of its way to give people who buy an RTR bike the opportunity to make that bike perform a little better with minimal cost. The only appropriate thing to say about Suntour or ANY of it's products is, "Thank you, I appreciate what you are doing," period.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Honestly if Suntour wants to up their image they need to get rid of the XCT completely.
    Most peoples first and often only experience with a Suntour fork is what comes on their budget bike. If that fork was the XCT and they rode anything more then gravel roads where they did not need a fork to begin with, then their experience was a bad one and in their mind this means Suntour makes junk.

    My first bike had an XCT and it was nothing but a glorified pogo stick.
    I realized it was a budget bike at a budget price and they slapped the cheapest piece of crap on the bike to make it look like the higher end bikes. Even though this was not a high end bike, it was not a Walmart bike either (although I don't know if it was much better than a walmart bike).

    My next bike was also a budget bike but came with the XCM.
    Although this is still a budget fork used to sell the bike at an affordable price with suspension, there is a HUGE difference between it and the XCT.
    As far as budget forks go on budget bikes, the XCM is an admirable choice and not a complete embarrassment to the company.

    All that being said, I can not see there being much manufacturing cost difference in the XCT and the XCM. I might even guess that if you dropped the XCT and started making more XCM's the cost of manufacturing the XCM would go down.

    At the very least, if you insist on continuing making the XCT then at the very least take your name off it so that gawd awful piece of junk is no longer associated with it.

    I still plan on upgrading the XCM as I do need more fork.
    However, if my only experience had been the XCT I probably would not even have considered Suntour as an option even with discounts being offered.
    I also am also new to mountain biking, have been riding for one season(1500 miles on a Trek Marlin with XCM). Wen I was shopping for my bike unless I miss understood the XCT and XCM are virtually the same fork, only difference being the XCM has a mechanical lockout. I could be mistaken. I have nothing bad to say about my lower end Suntour fork. I know it is not a top of the line item and will not offer the performance of the higher end forks. Also I think it's awesome Suntour offers a customer loyalty program such as this. Kudos to them and more companies need to have similar programs. We are in a time when many of the larger companies just don't care about their customers anymore.

    I also race motorcycles and autocross my WRX and can say that know the suspension of a car or motorcycle does not cross over to mountain the same at all. Comparing the feeling of suspension from my 410lb GSXR 750 to my 32 lb Trek is ridiculous.


    Thanks,
    Brian.

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    Last edited by Hooligan63049; 01-27-2013 at 03:50 AM.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hooligan63049 View Post
    Wen I was shopping for my bike unless I miss understood the XCT and XCM are virtually the same fork, only difference being the XCM has a mechanical lockout.


    The XCM is a fatter fork which I am sure makes it stiffer.
    Also it seems to bounce a lot less and absorb more no matter how much I played with the rebound.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooligan63049 View Post

    I also race motorcycles and autocross my WRX and can say that know the suspension of a car or motorcycle does not cross over to mountain the same at all. Comparing the feeling of suspension from my 410lb GSXR 750 to my 32 lb Trek is ridiculous.

    First off I have ridden both street and dirt when it comes to bikes.
    Suspension does the same basic thing no matter what it is on.
    Suspension on a dirt bike reacts very similar to that of a mountain bike.
    It just needs to do it better when on 200lb dirt bike.
    The XCT did a lot of bouncing and in no way do you want your suspension bouncing unless you are on a pogo stick. Also I am sure there was additional flex with the smaller fork tubes.

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    Both of you should take a voluntary break from each other, before someone else decides to force such upon you

  20. #70
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    Guys... Seriously...

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  21. #71
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    I can add another reason to upgrade the Suntour fork. My bike has the XCM's on it and the froze solid yesterday. My buddies Zokes continued to function fine.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by GelatiCruiser View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out how much my stock fork weighs and I can't find it anywhere on Suntour's site. It's the XCT V3 LTD 29er. Anyone know? I see the Raidon comes in (I think) at 2145gm or so...Just curious how much weight I'm going to save WHEN I go with the Raidon.
    XCT V3 LTD was an OEM fork for Giant. We have it listed at 2575g. Just a bit lighter than a boat anchor

    Nick
    SR Suntour warranty/technical advisor

  23. #73
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    All,

    We appreciate everyones opinion so I hope that we can keep things here as civil as if we were all face to face. I will try to answer some of the questions raised by Kijuled as best as possible in lamens terms.

    The reason for the XCT is numerous to say the least. It does suit many purposes and is a very high quality fork for the money. Remember that the XCT is a $60 dollar fork so we can't compare it to much in the market as an apples to apples comparison. It has many great features such as a coil spring, serviceable bushings and an aluminum lower casting. In some cases it even can come equiped with a lock out! Not to long ago forks at this pricing were far from servicable and were truely a throw-away type item not to mention had questionable safety concerns if it were actually taken to the trails.

    SR Suntour is the largest bicycle suspension fork manufacturer in the world. We manufacture this fork to meet certain pricepoints for our OEM clients. Some folks have limited budgets but are looking for something that will make their riding more enjoyable and fun. Any suspension is a good thing especially for a beginner cyclist. I can say this from experience as I have been in the bike industry and have been riding since the dawn of bicycle suspension. Things have come a long way thank goodness.

    Manufacturers are always looking to save cost in anyway possible so if its a few dollars on a fork or a few cents on a bottom bracket you better believe they will do it in order to get a bicycle at a certain pricepoint. It has been this way for years. Remember that it's not 1 bicycle they are saving dollars on its 100,000's sometimes more That money adds up quickly.

    The XCM does not have rebound as stated above. It will have a preload adjuster that is desinged for SAG. It has no effect on rebound what so ever.

    Anyway. I hope that clears things up just a bit.

    As for the 9mm forks. We tend to stock them at or below a $375 (Raidon series below) retail price point as the 15mm thru axle is found on high performance forks and these generally wouldn't be put on bikes that retail for the same amount of money as most would benefit from having a higher quality total package than just a fork.

    Thanks for reading.
    Nick
    Last edited by SRvancouver13; 01-28-2013 at 10:47 AM.
    SR Suntour warranty/technical advisor

  24. #74
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    Great explanation SR!


    Another question, are any of the Epicons sold with a skewer rather than a 15mm thru axle?

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    We do not import the Epicon series fork with 9mm. As mentioned above forks at this price ($500+) are best to use 15mm thru axle.

    Nick
    SR Suntour warranty/technical advisor

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRvancouver13 View Post
    We do not import the Epicon series fork with 9mm. As mentioned above forks at this price ($500+) are best to use 15mm thru axle.

    Nick
    Blast.

    I'd have to upgrade my wheelset to accomodate that.

    Looks like I'll be ordering whatever the best Raidon is you guys have to offer, just as soon as income tax comes in

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krunk_Kracker View Post
    Blast.

    I'd have to upgrade my wheelset to accomodate that.

    Looks like I'll be ordering whatever the best Raidon is you guys have to offer, just as soon as income tax comes in
    or you can also check ebay, I found a Epicon fork with 9mm QR for around $200. I was planning on buying it, but plans changed.

    Here's the link if your interested.
    Bi King New SR Suntour Epicon RL R Remote Lockout Disk Fork White CH06C | eBay

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by hOlykamOtie* View Post
    or you can also check ebay, I found a Epicon fork with 9mm QR for around $200. I was planning on buying it, but plans changed.

    Here's the link if your interested.
    Bi King New SR Suntour Epicon RL R Remote Lockout Disk Fork White CH06C | eBay
    They're all 26ers and I'm not sure how much I trust that. The manufacturer said they don't make the Epicon in 9mm skewer yet there they are. Seems a little odd

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  29. #79
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    Is it an international sale? He just said they don't import them with a 9mm qr.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by GelatiCruiser View Post
    Is it an international sale? He just said they don't import them with a 9mm qr.
    Ahh...yes. That is exactly what it is, they are all from Taiwan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRvancouver13 View Post
    We do not import the Epicon series fork with 9mm. As mentioned above forks at this price ($500+) are best to use 15mm thru axle.

    Nick
    I've been thinking about this upgrade, and wondering about the front axle.


    Any chance of a seriously discounted front hub being implemented as part of a package deal ?

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by GelatiCruiser View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out how much my stock fork weighs and I can't find it anywhere on Suntour's site. It's the XCT V3 LTD 29er. Anyone know? I see the Raidon comes in (I think) at 2145gm or so...Just curious how much weight I'm going to save WHEN I go with the Raidon.
    ~2688g

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    How can I figure out exactly which fork is on my bike? 2012 Rockhopper 29er. The only marking on the fork is XCR Spike Valve System SR Suntour. Specialized didn't have the 2012 info up anymore that I could find. This is the fork on their base 2013 Rockhopper. Would it be the same fork on my 2012? And if it says XCR, does that mean it falls into the same category as the XCT/XCM spoken of above?
    SR Suntour SF13-XCM-LO 29", hydraulic damping w/ lockout, coil/MCU spring, 1-1/8" steel steerer, alloy disc only post mount lower, 30mm Hi-Ten stanchion, preload adj., 80mm & 100mm travel
    Would all of the Raidon, Epicon, and Axon be upgrades to the XCR?

    And in case you read this Nick, I saw that one of the requirements was the receipt of fork and/or bike with fork on it. I bought my bike used so I don't have the original purchase receipt. I do still have the receipt from my purchase and could easily take a photo of me with bike and fork on it.....
    2012 Rockhopper 29er.

  34. #84
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    Just purchased my upgrade from Nick at SRSuntour.

    Went with this one: SR SUNTOUR Cycling

    Service was great, Nick was very helpful.

    I'll report back after it comes in.

  35. #85
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    Congrats. Wondering about this fork.

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    Re: If you want to upgrade your Suntour fork

    Quote Originally Posted by joshh View Post
    How can I figure out exactly which fork is on my bike? 2012 Rockhopper 29er. The only marking on the fork is XCR Spike Valve System SR Suntour. Specialized didn't have the 2012 info up anymore that I could find. This is the fork on their base 2013 Rockhopper. Would it be the same fork on my 2012? And if it says XCR, does that mean it falls into the same category as the XCT/XCM spoken of above?

    Would all of the Raidon, Epicon, and Axon be upgrades to the XCR?

    And in case you read this Nick, I saw that one of the requirements was the receipt of fork and/or bike with fork on it. I bought my bike used so I don't have the original purchase receipt. I do still have the receipt from my purchase and could easily take a photo of me with bike and fork on it.....
    If u search for bike archive on their site (or in google) u should be able to find the archives and look at the specs. I was annoyed when they took it off the site nav menu.

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  37. #87
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    Call or email Nick with questions.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

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    To get the best upgrade
    Be aware--
    Per the Owner's Manual the Raidon RL and Epicon RL models do not include a rebound damping adjuster. All the other choices do. It is a very useful feature

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshh View Post
    How can I figure out exactly which fork is on my bike? 2012 Rockhopper 29er. The only marking on the fork is XCR Spike Valve System SR Suntour....snip..

    Would all of the Raidon, Epicon, and Axon be upgrades to the XCR?

    ...snip........
    They made XCR forks in 2011 XCR RL 29'

    Yes

    XCR model forks seem to get good reviews.
    Last edited by mitzikatzi; 02-06-2013 at 06:57 PM.
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    Anyone know if they sell coil forks for upgrade? It seems like the list on the last page was all air forks.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    To get the best upgrade
    Be aware--
    Per the Owner's Manual the Raidon RL and Epicon RL models do not include a rebound damping adjuster. All the other choices do. It is a very useful feature
    The Raidon X1-RL seems to:
    System Air / Hydraulic Remote speed-lock w/ rebound adjust. SR SUNTOUR Cycling

    Definately something to confirm before ordering.

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfb12 View Post
    Anyone know if they sell coil forks for upgrade? It seems like the list on the last page was all air forks.
    There seems to be three Raidon coil forks available.

    SR SUNTOUR Cycling
    SR SUNTOUR Cycling
    SR SUNTOUR Cycling

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by eff View Post
    The Raidon X1-RL seems to:
    System Air / Hydraulic Remote speed-lock w/ rebound adjust. SR SUNTOUR Cycling

    Definately something to confirm before ordering.
    Further down in details it lists rebound adjustment-- N/A
    It seems like it certainly should have an adjustable rebound damping circuit.
    Maybe we can get some confirmation of the design for this and the Epicon.
    Fork info is hard to deciper for all the acronyms and unexplained mechanisms at work.
    Last edited by eb1888; 02-07-2013 at 06:42 AM.

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    To get the best upgrade
    Be aware--
    Per the Owner's Manual the Raidon RL and Epicon RL models do not include a rebound damping adjuster. All the other choices do. It is a very useful feature
    This is incorrect information. The Raidon's and Epicon's do have rebound adjsutment. I understand that our series of forks can be a little confusing as we offer forks in several options. Please don't hesitate to contact us directly for the facts on our forks.

    Nick
    SR Suntour warranty/technical advisor

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfb12 View Post
    Anyone know if they sell coil forks for upgrade? It seems like the list on the last page was all air forks.
    Yes we do have a few Raidon's with coil spring. these are limited in quantities so feel free to call about pricing and availability.

    Our website has litsted every fork we make for aftermarket. This does not mean that we stock them here in North America as there is a lot of overlap and no need to stock certain models. The forks posted earlier are what models we have that qualify for the upgrade. We do have a few other optoins not on that list so if your interested in something specific drop us a line.

    Nick
    SR Suntour warranty/technical advisor

  46. #96
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    Re: If you want to upgrade your Suntour fork

    Got my Raidon X1 in. It's very nice and quality. Looks good, it's getting put on tomorrow. Can't wait to try it this weekend.









    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
    Last edited by Krunk_Kracker; 02-14-2013 at 05:57 AM.

  47. #97
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    ^^ Nice looking fork. In my area of the world a lot of folks use the Suntour Epicon because it is cheaper than other brands. It's also light and plush and you can adjust travel internally if you don't have the travel adjust version. Here's a video of James Doerfling riding his Epicon-equipped Knolly: Two Laps on the Endorphin - Pinkbike

  48. #98
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    Looks great! Let us know what tangible results it gives you (how much faster, less fatigue, etc.).
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brown View Post
    ^^ Nice looking fork. In my area of the world a lot of folks use the Suntour Epicon because it is cheaper than other brands. It's also light and plush and you can adjust travel internally if you don't have the travel adjust version. Here's a video of James Doerfling riding his Epicon-equipped Knolly: Two Laps on the Endorphin - Pinkbike
    The owner of my LBS basically said the same thing, that it's unfortunate because Suntours ship on lower end bikes in the US, and to keep the price low, they put on the lowest of the low quality, and that it's not SRSuntours fault, they are just filling orders for the manufacturer. He was telling me how he has friends out of country (Canada, England and a few other places) and SRSuntour seems to be much more popular there.


    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Looks great! Let us know what tangible results it gives you (how much faster, less fatigue, etc.).
    I'm going on an all day outing with my daughter and some friends on Saturday, so it'll definitely get well tested. I'll be sure to report back for the benefit of others.

    The guys at my LBS were impressed with it.

    They seen it and were saying "This is Suntour?? Wow, this is much better than the ones that come on the Scotts we sell", so they were totally impressed with the build quality. I think that is what SRSuntour is hoping starts happening.


    If I really like this Raidon (and unless it's an utter failure, I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't), I'll continue to use SRSuntour. I'm planning a Niner build next year and will most likely use a Epicon.

  50. #100
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    A lot of people forget RockShox were in the same boat a number of years ago. The pendulum swings. Glad to hear we were able to get you on better equipment for a lot less $$$ than the traditional ways. Plus, you have a warranty!
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

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