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Explinations optional, Jargon help

705 views 8 replies 7 participants last post by  SlimTwisted 
#1 ·
New forum member and soon to be new rider (again) /wave

I haven’t rode in about 6 years, and want to get back into mountain biking. I have some major questions about how to start. I'm going to take a trip to the LMB store, soon but want to have some jargon ammo up my sleeve.

Can someone help me out here?
What is the difference between single link and four bar link rear suspension? What are the pro's and cons on both. Or, where can I find this information.

Next issue, everyone keeps talking about "geometry". What does this mean? I can look at different bikes and see the angles for the frames are different. I assume the different angles are for different styles of riding. Can someone explain this whole geometry issue.

Last, I am in the market for an all mountain/XC bike. I want a full suspension bike. I think prolly along the lines of 4" on the rear and 4-5 inches up front (not sure on the front). Price range 11-1700.

So, for a bike that can pound trails and I can get aggressive on do I want a 4 link suspension or single link? Also, what type of "geometry" am I looking for.

Thanks in advance
 
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#2 ·
There is a lot of info "out there" on the questions you are asking. You'd be best served doing some patient searches both on the boards here and beyond, if you really want that info.

But, I would just go to your LBS and ask them about it. Since you haven't ridden in a while, none of that info is going to mean much to you until you actually test ride some of the different designs.

MTBR is a great resource, but situations like yours can be tricky - people will likely respond with answers based on their own preference & experience (as they should!), but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the right fit for you. Just don't make any decisions (at this point) based purely on internet advice. That's just my opinion...

Work with your LBS - pick their brains and test ride as many different suspension and geometry designs as you can. Your LBS is in the best spot to help match you to the right rig for you. Don't be afraid of looking stupid in front of them; a good LBS just wants to be able to help get you on the right bike, whatever your circumstance. A good shop should be willing to answer all of your questions and take whatever time you need.

Best of luck & welcome back!

Cheers, Chris
 
#3 ·
Chris130 said:
There is a lot of info "out there" on the questions you are asking. You'd be best served doing some patient searches both on the boards here and beyond, if you really want that info.

But, I would just go to your LBS and ask them about it. Since you haven't ridden in a while, none of that info is going to mean much to you until you actually test ride some of the different designs.

MTBR is a great resource, but situations like yours can be tricky - people will likely respond with answers based on their own preference & experience (as they should!), but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the right fit for you. Just don't make any decisions (at this point) based purely on internet advice. That's just my opinion...

Work with your LBS - pick their brains and test ride as many different suspension and geometry designs as you can. Your LBS is in the best spot to help match you to the right rig for you. Don't be afraid of looking stupid in front of them; a good LBS just wants to be able to help get you on the right bike, whatever your circumstance. A good shop should be willing to answer all of your questions and take whatever time you need.

Best of luck & welcome back!

Cheers, Chris
This is great advise.

If you go into the Local Bike Shop and start spouting off a bunch of Jargon you gleaned from the interwebs you are just going to look like a poser.

If you don't already have a relationship with a bike shop take some time to scout out all the choices, get a feel for the shop what brands they carry, what the staff is like. Chose one that you are conformable with.

Go in to the shop you have chosen, and go in with your hat in your hand and explain your situation, and explain what you want to do with your bike. Once they know how you plan to use your bike they can start to advise you on what types of bikes are best for your intended use. Let the professionals guide you that is what they are there for.

And one more thing test lots of bikes, go to other shops and test other brands find the one that feels the best to you.

Good Luck,

A
 
#4 ·
As far as geometry is concerned, you are right. Those are the angles and lengths of the tubes used for the frame.

What you want to look for is top tube length, seat tube length, head and seat tube angles, bottom bracket height, etc. Most people refer to geometry as being "slacker" or "steeper".

A slacker geometry(usually with head tube angles ranging from 63 degrees to 68 degrees) (this is my take on this, my ranges aren't set in concrete and can be debated) is usually seen in downhill and freeride bikes, as such a slack angle allows the bikes to be very stable at high speeds, because the front end does not respond to rider input as fast as a steeper bike(so when you hit a bump on the downhill, you are not deflected as much), a slacker head angle also allows to get better use out of the fork on the downhills. The head angle usually varies along with the seat angle.

A steeper geometry(with head angles ranging from 69 to 73(and up to 75 in some cases, think BMX) will make for a better climbing bike at the expense of high speed stability. Such a high head tube angle will make the bike feel "twitchy" or "squirrelly". Those type of angles are seen more in dirt jumping, street riding, cross country, all mountain bikes. This is probably what you will be wanting if you plan on riding trails a lot.

The top tube and seat tube lengths are for fitting purposes, and bottom bracket height is a matter of preference.

Single pivots(or single links as you refer to them) have their qualities, and so does a four-bar linkage, it all depends on what you want to do. If you plan on doing a lot of downhill, I'd go for a four-bar linkage as braking force doesn't affect the suspension as much. I'm not too experienced with full suspension so I can't say much more on the subject.

Hope this helped you some.
 
#5 ·
Hey guys,

I dont want you to get the wrong idea. I think my title was a little misleading. I am looking to understand terms that are in the lititure and bike reviews so that i can figure this stuff out as I do my homework.

Snaky's explanation on geometry was very helpful. I think for now I am going to focus looking at either a horse link or four link style suspension. I read an article compairing multiple different types of suspention systems and think these two will meet my needs the best. (I know, I Know I have yet to try any of them...this is all prep work..)

However in the article I was reading it mentioned a "drop angle" but did not explain what the drop angle was or how it is determined. The drop angle has to do with where the pivot points are in relation to the suspention. Can someone point me to where I can find out more about this?
 
#6 ·
Hey Frac,

You give the impression of somebody who is putting the cart before the horse, so to speak, which is why you got the responses you did. Like Chris130 said in the first reply, a lot of the 'differences' in geometry and suspension design are actually subjective preferences, not the objective information which you think will help you to make an informed choice. Ride bikes first, then start to consider the theory. If you start with the theory, you'll just think you understand why a bike acts the way it does. The more experience you have riding bikes, any bikes, the more you'll be able to feel the difference between riding a particular frame with, for example, a slack or a steep position.
As you've been away from bikes for a few years, just take any bike you can and ride the trails you want to ride. When you're comfortable, balanced and confident, head into a few shops and see if you can arrange some demos. At the moment, the guys in the shops know more than you. If you tell them what kind of riding you actually do, rather than what kind of frame you think you should be riding, they're going to be able to narrow the field for you and suggest which makes/models they reckon may suit you. Very few riders will fully understand the geometry of their bikes, but they know how adjusting it will alter the feel of their bike; it's about the ability to relate to experience. The greater your experience, the quicker you'll be able to identify which type of bikes you like, and why.
Sometimes, just sitting on a bike is enough; it just feels good. Honestly, for the time being, just get as much saddle time as possible, on the trail and in shops. You sound like the kind of person who absorbs information, so you should start to get a feel for it all pretty quick. I'm not suggesting for a minute that you stop learning about the theoretical and/or technical side of frame design, just learn to ride, and enjoy it, first. The bike that makes you smile the most is the one you want...
 
#7 ·
Hey Steve,

Thanks =)

I guess I kind of thought things were a little more "ridgid" with the full suspention designs..(what a bad pun), as in if the shock was mounted on the Top Tube / Seat Tube, or Bottom tube the bike was desinged for a specific type of riding. I've been stuck at work the past few days, so i've just been trying to post and read up. The hope is I can narrow down what I am looking for, and understand a little about what I am looking at. I have the next week off, SO hopefully I can find a shop that will let me test out a few different types of bikes. Any recomendations for articles to check out are appreciated. I've tried to read a bunch of the "buying your first bike" type articles to get an idea of what I am in for.
 
#8 ·
all mountain / xc...
if youre not going to be doing big drops or gravity riding youre prob. beter off with 4-5" suspension or less, generally, the less suspension the faster & lighter the bike.
good general use bikes include, specialized stumpjumper (horst link) Santa cruz blur (VPP) , Fisher procaliber (single pivot) or cake. as mentioned earlier, the type of suspension isnt as important as the overall feel and ride. check out several bike shops (they will all push their brands) alot of frames can be built up for diff. types of riding. take a specialized enduro or Yeti575, you can put a fox 36 up front and a dhx coil in the rear and youve got a 30-34lb all mtn. bike, take the same bikes and put a smaller fork and shock and now you have a 28-29lb xc ride.
 
#9 ·
Single pivot linkage, as the name suggests is a rear susepnsion design in which the path of the wheel is transmitted across a single pivot point, which in turn, directs the force of impact through the shock. The advantage to the single pivot system is simplicity. A single pivot design in which the shock mounts to the frame fairly high (such as the Gary Fisher Hi-Fi) is pretty resistent to pedaling feedback while remaining active against trail clutter.

You may also encounter the term Virtual Pivot Point (VPP) which is a design where a double linkage connects the front and rear triangle of the frame. This differs from the fully-active 4-bar link which uses one pivot between the front triangle and lower swing arm with a single linkage up top to activate the shock.

Finally I believe you meant Horst link- which is named after its inventor, Horst Leitner. The Horst Link is a variation of the 4-bar linkage. The original Horst patents were purchased by Specialized Bicycles and are selectively licensed to only a few companies- KHS being one of them I believe. There are legal ways around the Horst link patents that are equally effective.

The 4 bar design contains a system which has a static bar, two link bars, and a control bar which adds up to- 4 bars. The control bar is basically the one in which you are attempting to control the path of (the seat stay), while the remaining bars would be the chainstays and the rocker arm, and finally the static bar would be the main frame itself. The whole concept behind a 4 bar link is to isolate the static bar (the frame) from bump forces. What makes it so desirable is that it not only isolates the bump forces but it eliminates pedal bob and stiffening from braking forces.

Complicated lesson? Maybe, but in no time you'll be able to glance at a bike and know if its a single pivot, 4-bar, or VPP system.
 
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