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  1. #1
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    Cool-blue Rhythm What stops a Mass-Market 'beer' maker from making and undercutting micros?

    What stops Big-Beer from making quality beer? (Budweiser, Coors, etc)
    They have all the tools, equipment and knowledge.
    Sierra Nevada Brewing paved the way in craft brewing, and now might be considered by some as 'mainstream' or even Macro-brewer.

    When you really get down to it, a recipe for a good beer is (should be) repeatable.
    Why doesn't Anheuser et.al. hire craft brewers and make a shlt-ton of good beer and sell it at a much lower cost? It's feasible that they could.

    Market share perhaps? - they could never diversify as much as many styles exist??

    This aforementioned question lends itself to cannabis cultivation.
    Like craft beer there is 'craft pot' - in a degree that some would even argue is even greater (I wont)
    Cultivators spend years refining what they want to produce - they come up with different varieties - and weed connoisseurs regard the varieties much like a beer connoisseur . There is a true art/science to this cultivation.
    To some, a Batch of 'Pliny' to many would be like a batch of 'Bullrider' only released in SD and no longer available - but the BEST out there (or ever was).
    I grew, as many of you have brewed. we spent time on this.

    So, when MJ is legalized, will it remain 'craft' like beer?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  2. #2
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    I bet budweiser outsells all the microbrews put together, including sierra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    I bet budweiser outsells all the microbrews put together, including sierra.
    That may be a given (maybe) but not the topic
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  4. #4
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    They are trying, bluemoon, shocktop, etc..... The problem they have is people who are into craft beer know better.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    They are trying, bluemoon, shocktop, etc..... The problem they have is people who are into craft beer know better.
    Not sure I agree with that. The big brewries high master brewers and pay them well. The ingrediant quality and time to produce the craft brews are the biggest thing IMHO. The profit margin on the crafts is much smaller then on Bud Light let's say, so the value proposition is smaller. Like anything else, people pay for exclusivity. The big companies make money on selling in bulk.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurch98 View Post
    Not sure I agree with that. The big brewries high master brewers and pay them well. The ingrediant quality and time to produce the craft brews are the biggest thing IMHO. The profit margin on the crafts is much smaller then on Bud Light let's say, so the value proposition is smaller. Like anything else, people pay for exclusivity. The big companies make money on selling in bulk.
    I am not sure I understand why you disagree, both Blue moon and Shocktop were "craft breweries" before they were purchased by members of the big three.

    Coors is trying to play off that Blue Moon is still a craft brew even though it is owned by them. and gets all the benefits of being part of coors, distribution, bigger buying power, etc.

    But because it is owned by them I cannot accept that it is still a craft brewery.
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    AB/InBev owns 32.2% of CBA (Craft Brewers Alliance) aka Redhook, Widmere Bros, and Kona. Basically, their approach is to just buy the brands that are already popular and exploit them. Less $$ spent on R&D and developing new styles, just buy what works.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    What stops Big-Beer from making quality beer? (Budweiser, Coors, etc)
    I would guess $ - the total craft market is close to 10% of the entire beer market. To shave a bit of market of the craft beer market would be a lot of work. Such an incremental increase is probably not worth that much effort to the big players.

    BTW - they make quality beer - it just isn't beer you like drinking.
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    To answer your first question I think it's a business model issue. In theory, yes BMC could make at least "better" beer but from a business standpoint it probably doesn't make sense. They are making Ford Festivas not Ferraris.

    To answer your second question...what is your second question?

  10. #10
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    You will see a more craft-oriented effort in the near future from BMC. They are rapidly losing market share and they know fewer and fewer people are reaching for Bud and Coors these days.

    And it's definitely a business model issue. Making good beer is usually expensive, and doesn't fit into the business model of BMC. But losing market share will cause them to change their tactics, and they will inevitably start making better beer. That, or the bubble will pop and all the pseudo beer geeks will go back to drinking Bud.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bipolarbear View Post
    AB/InBev owns 32.2% of CBA (Craft Brewers Alliance) aka Redhook, Widmere Bros, and Kona. Basically, their approach is to just buy the brands that are already popular and exploit them. Less $$ spent on R&D and developing new styles, just buy what works.
    Exactly - branding.

    I also tend to think InBev's accountants get involved with the recipes and try to "make the same beer" with less expensive ingredients.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    To answer your second question...what is your second question?
    The second part was not a question - well maybe it is, but more along the lines of 'thinking out loud'.

    When Cannabis becomes fully legal (well, in the sense that beer is fully legal - gotta be 18 or 21 or yada-yada) it will open the market to 'bigger/high-tech' manufacturers with big AD budgets -
    Is it Marlboro et. al. ? They might... trying to capitalize on the growing losses of tobacco every year.
    Or will 'big-biotech' take a look?

    I personally think that someone will, naturally do that. And Genuine Craft cultivators are nervous. In fact, many would rather risk it instead if cannabis becoming legal and will vote against measures - simply because they are afraid their market-share and thus livelihood will decrease. Places like Mendocino County (and others in the Emerald Triangle - Trinity and Humboldt) actually count on Cannabis to keep their counties going. I mention Mendocino first, because they seem the most open /honest about it.

    A Couple Articles - (not that I that this would happen - but then I have no reason why it wouldn't):
    Why pot growers turned against Prop. 19 | California Watch
    AllGov - News - Marijuana Growers Voted against Legalization

    Now, the outsider/ignorant is naturally going to assume: "All these growers are just scared because their drugs that they grow are going to be taken into a more regulated and taxed way - and they wont enjoy their free profit".
    In my opinion this couldn't be further from the truth. The guys (families) that cultivate Cannabis, don't enjoy a luxury/worry-free life for the most part. They do well enough, some just 'get by'. They are not in mansions.
    The Illegal grows (ok they're all illegal but I hope you get me) - the 'Natty-Ice' in our forests get lumped into what these guys work very hard at. That stuff is not sold to connoisseurs in California (or connoisseurs in general)- It's shipped across the country to new york or wherever people have nothing. Sure good Bud is out there but at a very high price-tag.

    OK Sorry for the ramble, - My opinion, is that like craft brew, people that know will still be buying from the craft-cultivator - at a lower price for us, but the cultivator will see more in the long end without so many middle men jacking the price up.

    If you don't see this is a good analog, that's fine - I don't see it being perfect either - but I think it's close, when you figure in prohibition etc.

    So, I'll leave you with this video and you can see the love and dedication to 'CRAFT'

    <iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/n_z7dMHExbQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    Though - most of us would like to get away from 'Medical' in the name (though it is very medicinal) - it's a hurdle/stumbling block - admittedly

    FFD to:
    @ 4:00 for some serious outdoor
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    Last edited by highdelll; 08-13-2012 at 10:08 PM.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  13. #13
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    One other constraint that goes along with the business model is the fact that the bigger brewers are publicly traded. That makes margins and earnings even more important as they have a direct impact on stock prices. As earnings drop, so does the forward multiple of your earnings to support your stock price.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post

    Now, the outsider/ignorant is naturally going to assume: "All these growers are just scared because their drugs that they grow are going to be taken into a more regulated and taxed way - and they wont enjoy their free profit".
    In my opinion this couldn't be further from the truth. The guys (families) that cultivate Cannabis, don't enjoy a luxury/worry-free life for the most part. They do well enough, some just 'get by'. They are not in mansions.
    The current situation in CA post 215 is a dream scenario for growers, that's why they don't want it to change. They rake in top dollar (yes, there may be a glut of product out there from time to time, but still) and they have their 215 get out of jail free card in their back pocket when they need it. If most of them really cared about the "craft" they would push to have it straight up legalized, not this quasi legal situation we have now that is a total joke. CA voters were fed this line about people with chronic illnesses needing their medicine blah, blah, blah. Total B.S. I can drive over to at least a hand full of places right now, tell a "Doctor" I get headaches from time to time, pay $50 and walk out with my card. Total joke. I lived in Humboldt County for 5 years, had friends that grew and observed many others that did as well. There is as much greed in the weed game as there is in Wall Street. Don't kid yourself. Yes, many of them deal with stress and don't live in mansions. On the other hand I'm not aware of too many jobs that allow you to take bong rips all day.

    Personally, I would vote to legalize it fully but I don't think even CA is ready for that yet. I think at some point you could see something closer to the wine industry (more of an agricultural model) but I think we're a ways off.

    Edit: I'll just add that there is no doubt in my mind that there are a lot of really skilled growers out there who's approach to their craft is similar to a brew master or a viticulturist.
    Last edited by Carl Hungus; 08-14-2012 at 11:30 AM.

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    On the original question, I think people who want Miller / Bud will simply buy Miller / Bud. When those companies attempt a microbrew style of beer, their normal drinkers still won't touch it, and those of us that might be willing to try it know where it comes from and therefore won't buy it.

    As for the other, I've tried growing it a few times and failed dramatically. Would be happy to see it legalized though, for what the opinion is worth.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    ...There is as much greed in the weed game as there is in Wall Street. Don't kid yourself. Yes, many of them deal with stress and don't live in mansions. On the other hand I'm not aware of too many jobs that allow you to take bong rips all day.

    Personally, I would vote to legalize it fully but I don't think even CA is ready for that yet. I think at some point you could see something closer to the wine industry (more of an agricultural model) but I think we're a ways off.

    Edit: I'll just add that there is no doubt in my mind that there are a lot of really skilled growers out there who's approach to their craft is similar to a brew master or a viticulturist.
    I hear ya Carl- The growers in 215-ish states enjoy some comfort - provided that they have care-giver license - and are allowed to grow XXX amount of plants.
    The real truth is that it is still 'underground' in the mainstream. Busts are poppin up like clockwork right now (aug of this writing).

    I think that the transition to legalization and setting up business licensees / taxing procedures is the biggest worry - in that period of change (a couple years?) that can really hurt.

    If I was a smart cultivator (who presumably wants to stay in biz), I would not only be saving my ass off, but also possibly aligning with other cultivators - figuring partnerships etc.
    eh, what do I know right?

    **Warning advocacy content - Answered only because poise/stated**

    On the flippancy of MediMJ on many people's viewpoint, I can agree - but only to the outward ignorant perspective.
    Yes, people get a card for something as innocuous as 'headaches' - many get relief from simple 'ailments' from cannabis - and sure, some use it as an 'excuse' to go buy pot.- Which has harmed no one ever (and does tons of beneficial shlt) because they'd rather smoke a J than pop a pill.
    To that, I say, what is your take on beer (not directed @ Carl) for any 'ailment'?
    If the roles were reversed right now, man it'd be tough to pass that.
    Last edited by highdelll; 08-15-2012 at 12:15 AM.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    To that, I say, what is your take on beer (not directed @ Carl) for any 'ailment'?
    If the roles were reversed right now, man it'd be tough to pass that.
    I drink beer to soothe my ailment for a delicious beverage! But seriously, I have no idea why pot is illegal, and I'm pretty well-versed in physiology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    I drink beer to soothe my ailment for a delicious beverage! But seriously, I have no idea why pot is illegal, and I'm pretty well-versed in physiology.
    Yeah, pretty much this. I don't drink alcohol to cure any ailments. I like the way it tastes but I have no doubt it's worse for you than pot from a physical standpoint. There was a period in my life when I was high pretty much every day and after I stepped away from it I realized that the big negative with pot was what it did to me socially. It made me way too introverted and too much of a hermit. So if anything alcohol is a social ailment. I go to the brewery, have a couple beers and shoot the sh!t with strangers where as if I was baked I'd be in the corner staring at my phone or something.

  19. #19
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    They are trying in both direct and indirect ways. The 2 big companies buy and takeover small craft breweries or create their own "craft brewery" brands, as well as use their own brands to introduce craft style beers.

    A great documentary on this subject (though it's already dated at about 2 years old) is Beer Wars. It shows how the distribution system is broken and manipulated by the big companies.

    Links:
    CraftBeer.com | Infographic
    Beer Wars Movie
    The Not So Professional Beer Blog: Budweiser's Project 12 Small Batch Beers
    CraftBeer.com | Celebrating the Best of American Beer

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    The big three don't sell their standard swill at a resonable price, why would they sell "micro" at a resonable price. For instance Budweiser had their American Ale which wasn't that bad (kind of at a Sam Adams level) but since it sold for the same price and the real craft brewers it wasn't really worth purchasing.

    And then there is of course supporting small businesses and local jobs over corprate profits that at this point aren't even American companies anymore. As an Oregonian and Pacific NW resident I would much rather spend my money supporting local breweries that source their ingredients locally and provide jobs then send my money out of the state/region.

  21. #21
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    Plus, where would I go to get my growler filled?????????????????
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Whisperer View Post
    The big three don't sell their standard swill at a resonable price, why would they sell "micro" at a resonable price. For instance Budweiser had their American Ale which wasn't that bad (kind of at a Sam Adams level) but since it sold for the same price and the real craft brewers it wasn't really worth purchasing.
    That's about what I was thinking. Even if one of the big corporations decided to brew a micro, it would sell it for at or near the same price as legit craft breweries. It's not like there's that much price difference to work with, and it's not like masses of craft drinkers are going to switch over to Bud Micro because it's a dollar cheaper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeWE View Post
    ... it's not like masses of craft drinkers are going to switch over to Bud Micro because it's a dollar cheaper.
    pose this:
    How many would not switch even if it was better - and at the same price
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  24. #24
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    "IF" it was better..... I think I would at least try it to judge that for myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    pose this:
    How many would not switch even if it was better - and at the same price
    What is better? It's all a matter of preference. A lot of personal preference is as much psychological as it is pure taste. Just like everything else, people like the image of drinking that local craft brew as much as the reality. And a Bud craft brew doesn't live up to that image.

    In other words, a lot of beer snobs and craft brew drinkers would skip it, regardless of taste, for the simple fact that it's a Bud or Coors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeWE View Post
    What is better? It's all a matter of preference. A lot of personal preference is as much psychological as it is pure taste. Just like everything else, people like the image of drinking that local craft brew as much as the reality. And a Bud craft brew doesn't live up to that image.

    In other words, a lot of beer snobs and craft brew drinkers would skip it, regardless of taste, for the simple fact that it's a Bud or Coors.
    And I would agree - and add another reason. I hate supporting Corporate America!
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    And I would agree - and add another reason. I hate supporting Corporate America!
    The irony is that Budweiser is not even an American company anymore.

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    Ok - How about I say I like supporting local business

    Which I think would play out well in the Cannabis side as well when it's fully legal
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  29. #29
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    I think the issue for the big 2 is disconnecting their name from craft. For example the i feel the likes of blue moon, shock top, etc... are sold and advertised as craft with keeping as little connection as possible with the larger company. This is due to the fact of the pre-conception of BMC making only yellow fuzzy beer; their marketing is spot on in trying to separate the products in order to increase profit.

    I don't think anyone has mentioned in this particular thread yet that the big boys now own several craft breweries. Goose Island is a perfect example of a highly regarded, well reviewed, and desirable craft brewery that has been purchased by Bud-inbev, yet most people still do not know this. BMC probably does not want the consumer to know that breweries like Goose Island have been bought out, as a majority of the sales come from those who frown upon Budweiser. As craft continues to gain traction we will see more small and well regarded craft brewers be bought out, unless the owners of that brewery are devoted to not do so.
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    Anheuser Busch tried ripping off Sierra Nevada years ago with their Pacific Ridge Ale, it didn't work. Sierra used to have their pale recipe on the wall but took it down after that.

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    Anheuser Busch has tried plenty of times to creep into the craft market. Remember "American Ale" it actually wasn't a bad beer. Was a nice clean summer beer. But it went over like a turd in a punch bowl because it had "brewed and bottled by Anheuser Busch St. Louis Missouri" on the side of the 6 pack. If your in STL look around at the draught handles in bars and sporting events. AB puts up all kinds of craft style beers but it's hard to find out where they come from. Most of them are pretty tasty even.

    Say what you will about the taste of macro beer. I honestly believe that AB might be the greatest brewery in the world. Not because I like any of the products they produce, but because they do it in unrivaled consistency. In 5 different breweries in this country and a few others throughout the rest of the world. They do it with 5 different water sources, 5 different brewers, 5 different brew systems. On top of that they do it with an ever changing collection of ingredients. Yet consistently they turn out the same beer all over the world. So as an avid home brewer it's just jaw dropping, as a beer drinker it's meh.

    And California should legalize pot to real in the tax money.

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    Blue Moon I don't mind, Shock Top is another story. But I view it this way, Coors/Miller and Bud will always have their followers. Shoot I have it at times, but everyone has their own tastes. The big breweries have to focus on their big brands and marketing them first. That is where there money is. Doing "craft brews" is more like a hobby for them.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Anheuser Busch has tried plenty of times to creep into the craft market. Remember "American Ale" it actually wasn't a bad beer. Was a nice clean summer beer. But it went over like a turd in a punch bowl because it had "brewed and bottled by Anheuser Busch St. Louis Missouri" on the side of the 6 pack. If your in STL look around at the draught handles in bars and sporting events. AB puts up all kinds of craft style beers but it's hard to find out where they come from. Most of them are pretty tasty even.
    When They still have a beer garden at Sea World I remember tasting some pretty good beers that had names I have never seen on store shelves, one was a Bock with a snowman on the tap handle, I remember it being pretty good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Say what you will about the taste of macro beer. I honestly believe that AB might be the greatest brewery in the world. Not because I like any of the products they produce, but because they do it in unrivaled consistency. In 5 different breweries in this country and a few others throughout the rest of the world. They do it with 5 different water sources, 5 different brewers, 5 different brew systems. On top of that they do it with an ever changing collection of ingredients. Yet consistently they turn out the same beer all over the world. So as an avid home brewer it's just jaw dropping, as a beer drinker it's meh
    Agree 110%
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post

    Say what you will about the taste of macro beer. I honestly believe that AB might be the greatest brewery in the world.
    Brewing with that level of consistency on that scale becomes a hell of a lot easier if you have the funds to pay for the technology. The same can be said for another highly-criticized company in the food world - McDonald's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    Brewing with that level of consistency on that scale becomes a hell of a lot easier if you have the funds to pay for the technology. The same can be said for another highly-criticized company in the food world - McDonald's.
    Having a multi million dollar lab might make it easier but that doesn't mean it's easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    Brewing with that level of consistency on that scale becomes a hell of a lot easier if you have the funds to pay for the technology. The same can be said for another highly-criticized company in the food world - McDonald's.
    [OLD MAN RANT]
    I'd have to agree.
    It's hard to tout consistency, when it's consistently tasteless.

    All the consistency and technology in the world can't make up for a sub-par product.

    Plus these big guys who buy up craft brewing products, then try to hide their names as if to distance themselves from some bastard child born out of wedlock, doesn't instill the best intentions in my eyes.

    Touting their corporate business practices in public duping, loss of focus, and undercutting the competition by bastardizing brewing tradition with cheap adjuncts is all they'll get from me.
    [/OLD MAN RANT]

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFryauff View Post

    Beer...it's THAT serious
    Truth.

    More things to consider - I know a guy who works at Bud in Fairfield. He knows first-hand that making beer at Budweiser is much easier than at a small brewery, simply because they have the staff, process, and money to make sure it's always the same. The equipment they use (water treatment, beer producing, bottling/canning lines) are all pretty uniform among the breweries. Making beer is much less of an "art" at the big breweries than at the smaller ones, because everything at Bud can be measured, calculated, and maintained through the use of technology.

    At some point, it's more about technology and equipment than it is about small-scale visionary brewing.

  39. #39
    Beer Please! SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFryauff View Post
    Beer...it's THAT serious
    I think I found my new signature......
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    http://www.mtbr.com/guidelinescrx.aspx

  40. #40
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    I had the fortune to grow up in Chico, CA which is the hometown of Sierra Nevada. Sixers of Sierra Nevada were $5.00 or less in the 90's. Even now you can find it at many local stores for right around $6. Kegs were $85, while kegs of Coors Light were $70...kind of a no brainer as a high school kid. The majority of keggers I attended had Sierra Nevada on tap, and only a couple I can remember had Bud, Coors, or some other swill. This was an odd experience for someone to have in the late 80's and early 90's in the United States. But for kids in high school in the past decade it's a reality in many towns and cities thanks to the craft brewing boom. And as they age, they'll be more open to the complex and flavorful offerings of microbreweries.

    I hope this encourages people to drink not ONE type of beer, but many. I can't imagine just drinking one type of beer all the time, but yet that's exactly what the macro breweries have been pushing for the past 80 years. They try to focus on pleasing everyone and end up with a watered down "people pleaser" beer that just doesn't appeal to those who care about flavor and boldness. I think Sierra Nevada and Sam Adams will end up taking over as the new macros. Their history is steeped in home brewing, small batch brewing, and bringing back authentic styles. You can't buy that sort of history or that type of reputation, it must be earned.
    Last edited by TwoHeadsBrewing; 08-28-2012 at 04:01 PM.
    "Got everything you need?"

  41. #41
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    Consistency isn't something to brag about when you are consistently bland. In fact, I kinda like the fact that some batches taste different than others at micro breweries. Some breweries tweak the recipe a little each time they brew. Some breweries never brew the same batch twice even.

    The beauty of a small microbrewery or brewpub is that you are getting something there that you cannot get everywhere. Many times you can meet the people who put their hard work into crafting the brew. No matter what, Bud will never replicate that small brewery feel, and that is a major factor of what appeals to people who drink craft beer.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFryauff View Post
    [OLD MAN RANT]
    I'd have to agree.
    It's hard to tout consistency, when it's consistently tasteless.
    All the consistency and technology in the world can't make up for a sub-par product.
    Quote Originally Posted by bipolarbear View Post
    Consistency isn't something to brag about when you are consistently bland. In fact, I kinda like the fact that some batches taste different than others at micro breweries. Some breweries tweak the recipe a little each time they brew. Some breweries never brew the same batch twice even.

    The beauty of a small microbrewery or brewpub is that you are getting something there that you cannot get everywhere. Many times you can meet the people who put their hard work into crafting the brew. No matter what, Bud will never replicate that small brewery feel, and that is a major factor of what appeals to people who drink craft beer.
    First off I don't drink macro beer anymore than the rest of you. 90% of the beer I drink is brewed on my back deck! But since I've been an avid home brewer for almost 10 years I know how hard it is to be consistent. I also know how hard it is to brew light flavored beer. So while the macro product doesn't taste any better because of their consistency. It's still something to marvel at. Especially when it's done in multiple locations.

    The other thing I'll mention is that light bodied macro lagers won't hide one single off flavor. A big thick stout could have 6 different defects and 99% of the consumers wouldn't notice a single one of them. I've had beer out of the same tap as a friend and he thought it was great, I knew better and sent it back. I'm not a snob but I will not stand for notably spoiled beer. Especially at $5 a pint! Personally I'm a little disappointed in 'craft beer' at the moment. Seems anybody that can scrap together 100k can open a brewery and produce a 'craft' product. I've traveled all over the west this summer working bike events and have tasted all kinds of horrible craft beer. Beer that I would drink if I brewed it but wouldn't share it with friends I actually liked. And I sure as hell wouldn't sell it.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    Yeah, pretty much this. I don't drink alcohol to cure any ailments. I like the way it tastes but I have no doubt it's worse for you than pot from a physical standpoint. There was a period in my life when I was high pretty much every day and after I stepped away from it I realized that the big negative with pot was what it did to me socially. It made me way too introverted and too much of a hermit. So if anything alcohol is a social ailment. I go to the brewery, have a couple beers and shoot the sh!t with strangers where as if I was baked I'd be in the corner staring at my phone or something.
    Me, right now.

    Local capitalism is still capitalism. You're paying an amount of earned money for a product. And someone makes a profit. Just because you know the dude making the profit doesn't make it less rediculous.

    I've tried the "faux craft" from the big guys, I just didn't like it. The styles are done better by other breweries. I don't like some of my local beer and will buy something from anywhere else if I have to choose; I support my enjoyment.

    As for the weed, I love it. I made the analogy the other day that going by the "logic" of it being illegal then poppies and hops should so be illegal. Since substances more harmful than weed are derived from them. I tend not to care about its legality or the crop production. I think it's super rad people are into making the most potent bud possible and would like to be able to have my own plants to experiment with but that's another hobby I'd have to spend money on and I currently allocate all free money to bikes. I'm super glad other people have the passion, money and time to devote to it and I appreciate them for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

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