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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I've downed hundreds of thousands of cans of beer.

    No moobs.

    I call BS.
    Agreed.


    The whole BPA on the can linings thing is a major red herring. There is no science to back it up.

    Seems that rich here is just another tin foil wearing anti-beer guy.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Agreed.


    The whole BPA on the can linings thing is a major red herring. There is no science to back it up.

    Seems that rich here is just another tin foil wearing anti-beer guy.
    No science to back it up? C'mon man, any simple search on Google will turn up tons of scientific data. And if you actually pay attention, it's not just BPA that's a problem. BPA is just one compound that was identified because of it's effects on children. The reality is that ALL plastics are a problem, and nobody is paying attention.

    "Currently, no federal agency tests the toxicity of new materials before they are allowed on the market."

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-as-hazardous/


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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Agreed.


    The whole BPA on the can linings thing is a major red herring. There is no science to back it up.

    Seems that rich here is just another tin foil wearing anti-beer guy.
    While rich is certainly a bit kooky on plenty of things, he IS right that bpa is a problem. There absolutely IS science supporting that it (among other chemicals in plastics) is a hormone disruptor that mimics estrogens.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...oq=bpa+hormone

    Quite a lot of it, too (10,100 results in the above search).

    With that said, bpa exposure is not the same all the time. There are variables that affect greatly humans' exposure to it even when it (and other plastics) are used in food packaging. At low temps, not nearly as much leaches into food. At high temps, yeah, quite a lot of it leaches out.

    So here's a question - do you ever microwave food in plastic containers? THAT is going to be a big source of exposure to bpa and other plasticizers (chemicals that keep plastic from getting brittle). Have you ever cooked beans IN the can over a campfire cowboy-style? Hopefully not anytime recently, because those cans are now lined with plastics, many contain bpa, and heating up those cans over the fire will absolutely leach bpa and all kinds of other plastic chemicals into the food inside.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuhl View Post
    Drink more whiskey.
    Speaking of prices getting stupid!

    Many Scotch distilleries are going away from aged-based single-malt whiskys and are marketing "Expressions". They can add younger whiskies in to the mix and they don't lower the price. In turn the older whiskies are sky rocketing. When I turned 40 in 2009, a bunch of people chipped in and bought me a bottle of Laphroaig 30 year-old. It was $199.

    That 30 year old was discontinued shortly after and then reintroduced a few years later. The Laphroaig 30 can now be bought for $850. Insane!
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Agreed.

    The whole BPA on the can linings thing is a major red herring. There is no science to back it up.

    Seems that rich here is just another tin foil wearing anti-beer guy.
    What??!! I was planning to get drunk and play with my own moobs. I guess I need to come up with a Plan B... :-(

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    It's not that simple. The metallic taste is still there, it's a blunted, plastic taste and the carbonation is also noticeably weaker from canned beer whether it's poured into a glass or not. It tastes better in a glass than in a can, but the taste is still different. The entire beer's taste and carbonation is blunted with canning. It's with every canned beer, not just a few. I won't buy Foster's cans anymore because they just do not taste the same as the bottled version, and I haven't even tasted that bottled version in about 10 years (they don't import Foster's bottles to the USA anymore). I remember the bottled taste well, I'm not hallucinating. That's just my experience. If you can't taste the difference, then ignorance is bliss. I've met people who can't taste the difference between Budweiser cans and imported European bottles, and while I feel sorry for them, at least they are saving money I guess. I ride two cheap bikes, and you are more than welcome to bash on them, in exchange for me bashing on canned beer...

    A couple of other 'inconvenient truths' for you canned beer drinkers: as the article below states, craft beer is only 12.5% canned as of July 2017. It will grow as a percentage, but it's still a small fraction of beer produced compared to bottled beer.

    Second, and more serious, is that the plastic lining (bisphenol-A) in canned beer is an estrogen mimic, like many other plastics that leach into food and drinks. Soy products and many other foods are also estrogen mimics. What does that mean for a canned beer drinker? Estrogen mimics end up feminizing males. Ever seen a beer drinker with bitch t--s? It's not just being overweight, it's what they are eating and drinking, it's the quality, or lack of, what they ingest that grows breasts on a male. There are overweight males out there with no noticeable breasts, because they don't eat/drink estrogen mimics. Their testosterone/estrogen + estrogen mimic ratio may not be optimal but it's better than the men with breasts. I'm not overweight but I also don't want to grow breasts, thank you very much...

    I also read an article on Japanese men who ate tofu daily for decades, and their brains shrank an average of 10% compared with men who didn't eat tofu. Their brains also had holes in certain regions, that looked on the MRI screen similar to pre-alzheimers or schizophrenia. Tofu also has multiple estrogen mimics in the food. If you'd like to see that article PM me and I'll try to find it.



    Here is the canned beer article below, snipped for brevity:

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/article...your-beer-can/

    Bisphenol Pale Ale: Should You Be Worried About the BPA in Your Beer Can?
    Beer and Health by Aleszu Bajak | Jun 2017 | Issue #125

    America’s gone crazy for canned craft beer. According to the Brewers Association, one in eight beers sold by US craft breweries today is consumed out of a can. Though bottles still make up the lion’s share of packaging among craft breweries, the popularity of cans—mostly among smaller companies opting for aluminum over glass—has increased dramatically in recent years. “It was 2 percent of craft volume when we benchmarked in 2011, and 10 percent in 2014,” says Bart Watson, the trade group’s chief economist.

    But BPA has a dark side. Biologically speaking, the compound looks eerily similar to estrogen, meaning it can act like estrogen, a powerful hormone, if it gets into the body. When ingested, tasteless and odorless BPA can disrupt biological processes and interfere with the reproductive and nervous systems as well as behavioral development, especially in infants with underdeveloped digestive systems that insufficiently metabolize the chemical. That’s why the US Food and Drug Administration has banned BPA from baby bottles, sippy cups, and packaging for infant formula.

    “Every aluminum beverage can has a BPA lining,” says Katie Wallace, assistant director of sustainability at New Belgium Brewing and chair of the Brewers Association’s sustainability committee. “For beverages, it’s the only option.”

    “Human exposure to bisphenol A is widespread and it does quantifiably leach into beer.” ...there’s a serious lack of science on the health effects of BPA and what has been studied leaves room for a lot of uncertainty. The more acidic the beverage, the greater the chance it will degrade the lining, says Hartle, and that could cause BPA to leach out. With an average pH around 4, beer is generally fairly acidic.

    “A lot of us eat canned food and drink canned beer,” says Geller. “That’s all adding up to your daily body burden for BPA. The concern is even if you have exposure from beer cans, it’s something we should be worried about in terms of cumulative exposure.”
    I'm not a super taster, but I accept that there may be people who can detect the difference between the same beer in a can or bottle, even controlling for UV exposure and age. Despite most brewers I know telling me otherwise. But making that argument with Fosters? That's like a food blogger making a big deal about the difference between Showbiz and Chuck-E-Cheese pizzas. The claim to authority takes a hit.

    As Harold points out, plasticizers are just about ubiquitous. If you threw away your Nalgene when the first BPA scare made the news, you haven't eliminated much exposure. BPA is only one of many plasticizers, and only one of many endocrine disruptors. We don't know what the human health hazards and risk are for endocrine disruptors and other pharmaceuticals and personal care products (PPCPs in the lingo). We're talking about concentrations in parts per trillion, so even the sampling and analysis is difficult. To top it off, there's no effective water treatment for these compounds at those concentrations.

    You live in the San Diego area, right? Well, you live downstream of a lot of other communities, and you very likely have low concentrations of PPCPs in your drinking water. Many large communities do, because they pass right through wastewater treatment.

    There's certainly an argument for limiting your exposure where you can, but given the background level of exposure just from modern living in the US, the amount of canned beer I drink is insignificant - especially when it's kept cold. It's not enough of a worry to override more immediate considerations such as portability, crushability, and lack of glass. Anyone who spends any time on a river thinks canned craft beer is a phenomenal idea. It's also much better for carrying to the top of the last hill in your bike pack.

  7. #107
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    I actually usually opt for bottles in the pack.

    I've yet to break a bottle, but I've had a number of cans end up punctured and filling my pack with sudz.

    Pro tip.

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    While rich is certainly a bit kooky on plenty of things, he IS right that bpa is a problem. There absolutely IS science supporting that it (among other chemicals in plastics) is a hormone disruptor that mimics estrogens.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...oq=bpa+hormone

    Quite a lot of it, too (10,100 results in the above search).

    With that said, bpa exposure is not the same all the time. There are variables that affect greatly humans' exposure to it even when it (and other plastics) are used in food packaging. At low temps, not nearly as much leaches into food. At high temps, yeah, quite a lot of it leaches out.

    So here's a question - do you ever microwave food in plastic containers? THAT is going to be a big source of exposure to bpa and other plasticizers (chemicals that keep plastic from getting brittle). Have you ever cooked beans IN the can over a campfire cowboy-style? Hopefully not anytime recently, because those cans are now lined with plastics, many contain bpa, and heating up those cans over the fire will absolutely leach bpa and all kinds of other plastic chemicals into the food inside.
    I microwave stuff in glass, but have used plastic in the past.

    Do you know if any of that research is for BPA exposure when drinking cold beer that was stored in a can?

    I am going to turn 40 this year, when should I expect moobs? I do not have an estrogen problem at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    There's certainly an argument for limiting your exposure where you can, but given the background level of exposure just from modern living in the US, the amount of canned beer I drink is insignificant - especially when it's kept cold. It's not enough of a worry to override more immediate considerations such as portability, crushability, and lack of glass. Anyone who spends any time on a river thinks canned craft beer is a phenomenal idea. It's also much better for carrying to the top of the last hill in your bike pack.
    well said, freaking out about a tiny amount of BPA in the lining of a can of beer is tin foil hat stuff.... Not gonna hurt anyone.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I microwave stuff in glass, but have used plastic in the past.

    Do you know if any of that research is for BPA exposure when drinking cold beer that was stored in a can?

    I am going to turn 40 this year, when should I expect moobs? I do not have an estrogen problem at all.

    freaking out about a tiny amount of BPA in the lining of a can of beer is tin foil hat stuff.... Not gonna hurt anyone.
    There was a test run in Canada. They found BPA in eight out of eight canned samples of beer. In eight samples of bottled beer, only one was contaminated.

    I'll concede to canned beer having it's advantages in certain situations (camping, traveling, etc.) and with the pervasiveness of BPA in the American food supply, a few cans on a camping trip certainly isn't going tip the scales one way or the other, but in terms of picking out a six pack to take home, why add to the BPA tally when there are good bottled beers right next to them on the shelf?

    In light of this discussion, my trip to the supermarket this morning was illuminating. It's amazing how much stuff in packaged in plastic, plastic lined cartons, plastic lined cans, etc. I definitely looked at it more today, and definitely bought more stuff packaged in glass, or not packaged at all. The beer I bought was also in glass.

    Tinfoil hat stuff? Maybe. But what's it going to hurt to avoid BPA where you can if it isn't a problem? On the other hand, ignoring it if is a problem might not turn out so well. Ever notice the primary effects of BPA exposure are also endemic to the American population? Obesity, diabetes, vitamin D deficiency, cancer, arthritis, heart disease, etc.


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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    There was a test run in Canada. They found BPA in eight out of eight canned samples of beer. In eight samples of bottled beer, only one was contaminated.

    I'll concede to canned beer having it's advantages in certain situations (camping, traveling, etc.) and with the pervasiveness of BPA in the American food supply, a few cans on a camping trip certainly isn't going tip the scales one way or the other, but in terms of picking out a six pack to take home, why add to the BPA tally when there are good bottled beers right next to them on the shelf?

    In light of this discussion, my trip to the supermarket this morning was illuminating. It's amazing how much stuff in packaged in plastic, plastic lined cartons, plastic lined cans, etc. I definitely looked at it more today, and definitely bought more stuff packaged in glass, or not packaged at all. The beer I bought was also in glass.

    Tinfoil hat stuff? Maybe. But what's it going to hurt to avoid BPA where you can if it isn't a problem? On the other hand, ignoring it if is a problem might not turn out so well. Ever notice the primary effects of BPA exposure are also endemic to the American population? Obesity, diabetes, vitamin D deficiency, cancer, arthritis, heart disease, etc.


    .
    So CAD beers, not USA? Hmmm. American population? Lazy. Soda, chips, lack of exercise, smoking have nothing to do with this? MA guy here, 75% of the craft beer is canned, kind of a mute point.

  11. #111
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    Interesting...never heard the whole thing about cans and linings and man-boobs but I think I have enough 'experience' to rule it out as a concern for me. At 58 I've consumed thousands of cans of beer in the last 40 years...some of it has even been warm. I should have quite the RACK by now!

    But one thing that's a definite no-no for me...I NEVER microwave my beer in plastic...that's just crazy!
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    So CAD beers, not USA? Hmmm. American population? Lazy. Soda, chips, lack of exercise, smoking have nothing to do with this? MA guy here, 75% of the craft beer is canned, kind of a mute point.
    It's "moot", genius.

    Guess we can add cognitive disabilities to the list.


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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by sturge View Post
    Interesting...never heard the whole thing about cans and linings and man-boobs but I think I have enough 'experience' to rule it out as a concern for me. At 58 I've consumed thousands of cans of beer in the last 40 years...some of it has even been warm. I should have quite the RACK by now!

    But one thing that's a definite no-no for me...I NEVER microwave my beer in plastic...that's just crazy!
    I would think that at this point, most people in modern society wouldn't have a clue how their bodies should be without bpa. We are probably all hormonal wrecks at this point.

    https://www.wired.com/2015/03/secret...modern-marvel/

    It seems that cans have had plastic liners since the 30s, but those liners have changed significantly over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I would think that at this point, most people in modern society wouldn't have a clue how their bodies should be without bpa. We are probably all hormonal wrecks at this point.

    https://www.wired.com/2015/03/secret...modern-marvel/

    It seems that cans have had plastic liners since the 30s, but those liners have changed significantly over the years.

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  15. #115
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    Went to this chain restaurant called World of Beer last night with my wife and 2 friends. The bartender presented all of our $7 pints with 3-4 ounces missing. I very politely asked him to top them off or give us a small glass of it. He refused and said the pour is 16oz, the glasses are bigger. So I then ordered a 16oz can of something else and poured it in the glass in front of him. Filled it to the brim. Then a whole thing erupted with the manager, it was ridiculous.

    Prices are prices, whatever. But if you engage in systemically ripping off hundreds of people a day I'm not keeping my mouth shut. Guys at the bar next to us said they always pour short.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Went to this chain restaurant called World of Beer last night with my wife and 2 friends. The bartender presented all of our $7 pints with 3-4 ounces missing. I very politely asked him to top them off or give us a small glass of it. He refused and said the pour is 16oz, the glasses are bigger. So I then ordered a 16oz can of something else and poured it in the glass in front of him. Filled it to the brim. Then a whole thing erupted with the manager, it was ridiculous.

    Prices are prices, whatever. But if you engage in systemically ripping off hundreds of people a day I'm not keeping my mouth shut. Guys at the bar next to us said they always pour short.
    Yeah, if you're going to give me an 8 or 12oz pour, then put that on the menu so I know what I'm actually paying for. But telling customers they're getting 16oz when they actually get 12 is not cool, and quite likely against the law.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitflogger View Post
    FYI. The whole book is good.
    You mean "Rust: The Longest War"?

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Yeah, if you're going to give me an 8 or 12oz pour, then put that on the menu so I know what I'm actually paying for. But telling customers they're getting 16oz when they actually get 12 is not cool, and quite likely against the law.
    It's standard practice industry wide, and not necessarily because they're trying to rip you off. The beer snobs will get upset with you as a bartender if you serve a shaker/pint glass filled the tip top, because a head on the beer is considered proper presentation. A lot of times, the head on the beer won't hold up long enough for it to get to the customer intact, but that's because of slow service and/or it's a poorly made beer....usually the latter.

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're worried about ounces per $$$, you shouldn't be drinking in a bar. You're already paying 4-6 times retail, what difference does a couple ounces make? There's nothing worse than a cheapskate connoisseur.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    You mean "Rust: The Longest War"?
    Yes, an excerpt was posted.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    It's standard practice industry wide, and not necessarily because they're trying to rip you off. The beer snobs will get upset with you as a bartender if you serve a shaker/pint glass filled the tip top, because a head on the beer is considered proper presentation. A lot of times, the head on the beer won't hold up long enough for it to get to the customer intact, but that's because of slow service and/or it's a poorly made beer....usually the latter.

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're worried about ounces per $$$, you shouldn't be drinking in a bar. You're already paying 4-6 times retail, what difference does a couple ounces make? There's nothing worse than a cheapskate connoisseur.


    .
    The beer in question doesn't pour with a head. Have had it in probably a dozen bars and it never does. And there was no transit time, he was right in front of us.
    Anyway, be an apologist, but don't call me a cheapskate. There's plenty of bars around here that pour to the top; who will continue to get the generous tips we leave. As a bartender, arguing with people only substantiates that it's management practice, not just poor technique (pun intended). And if the guy just said that, I would have left it alone. Either way, never going back.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    It's standard practice industry wide, and not necessarily because they're trying to rip you off. The beer snobs will get upset with you as a bartender if you serve a shaker/pint glass filled the tip top, because a head on the beer is considered proper presentation.
    .
    If they're sticklers for 'presentation' and charge for a 16oz beer, they oughta be pouring into 20oz glasses.
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    In Germany, beer glasses have a line below the top with the capacity printed next to it. Never a short pour there, and plenty of room for the head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    In Germany, beer glasses have a line below the top with the capacity printed next to it. Never a short pour there, and plenty of room for the head.

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    Lots of smaller tulip and snifter glasses have a line for an 8oz or 12oz pour. Definitely rare to see that on a pint (or larger) glass.

    I am also not a cheapskate. I pay what the beer costs, whatever that is. It is more about truth in advertising, honesty, and those kinds of issues. If you aren't going to pour 15-16oz of beer into my glass, don't call it a pint. And if the beer in question has such a thick head that you wind up with substantially less than a pint in an actual pint glass, then put it in a bigger glass.

    When a smaller glass is used that has a volume line, i have always received pours where the head begins ABOVE the fill line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're worried about ounces per $$$, you shouldn't be drinking in a bar. You're already paying 4-6 times retail, what difference does a couple ounces make?
    It depends on the beer and the bar. Some beers (especially Belgians) are expensive anywhere I can get them. Happy hour pricing for one of my favorites is cheaper than buying it at the store, and regular pricing only a buck or so more.

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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    It's standard practice industry wide, and not necessarily because they're trying to rip you off. The beer snobs will get upset with you as a bartender if you serve a shaker/pint glass filled the tip top, because a head on the beer is considered proper presentation. A lot of times, the head on the beer won't hold up long enough for it to get to the customer intact, but that's because of slow service and/or it's a poorly made beer....usually the latter.

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're worried about ounces per $$$, you shouldn't be drinking in a bar. You're already paying 4-6 times retail, what difference does a couple ounces make? There's nothing worse than a cheapskate connoisseur.


    .
    It's about truth in advertising. So you OK with your 18 oz steak ( before cooking) to be 16 oz? Order 10 chix wings and get 9. Same thing. Do you actually want a full gallon of gas? 16 oz is a pint, if that's what they are selling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    It's "moot", genius.

    Guess we can add cognitive disabilities to the list.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Went to this chain restaurant called World of Beer last night with my wife and 2 friends. The bartender presented all of our $7 pints with 3-4 ounces missing. I very politely asked him to top them off or give us a small glass of it. He refused and said the pour is 16oz, the glasses are bigger. So I then ordered a 16oz can of something else and poured it in the glass in front of him. Filled it to the brim. Then a whole thing erupted with the manager, it was ridiculous.

    Prices are prices, whatever. But if you engage in systemically ripping off hundreds of people a day I'm not keeping my mouth shut. Guys at the bar next to us said they always pour short.
    wow, that is bad. I would def avoid places like that.
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    It's about truth in advertising. So you OK with your 18 oz steak ( before cooking) to be 16 oz? Order 10 chix wings and get 9. Same thing. Do you actually want a full gallon of gas? 16 oz is a pint, if that's what they are selling.
    Ya know, I can't think of a single time in the past decade that I've gone to a restaurant and ordered anything by weight or quantity. I pick an item on the menu, they serve it, I eat it. Sometimes the serving is smaller than expected, sometimes it's too much, but whatever, that's how they serve it. If I wasn't happy, I don't order it again, or I don't go there again.

    Same with beer. Maybe some places do quantify the serving size, but it's usually more along the lines of a small or large, this kind of glass or that. Your typical shaker/pint glass is 16oz to the brim, but proper presentation is with an inch of head. Do they owe you an ounce or two after you drink it down a bit? Is the head part of a "pint of beer"? Do you care about proper presentation, or are you more concerned with ounces per $$$? Did they actually sell it as a pint of beer (16oz)? Or is it just served in a "pint glass"? The places that make a big stink about a "true pint" or putting a line on the glass are more the exception than the rule in my experience.

    Relative the under-filled scenario above....the server really screwed the pooch there. He should have just topped off the glass, or given him a half pint, and kept the customer happy. Lord knows, for the markup they're taking on alcohol, they can afford to give away a few ounces to keep the odd "price conscious" customer appeased. Especially when you consider that he's going to walk out the door and run his mouth up and down the internet about how he got "ripped off".

    At the end of the day, the customer walks in the door knowing he's getting screwed, so he shouldn't be crying about a couple ounces here or there, and the bar owner shouldn't be skimping on the pour considering the profit they're taking. It's a double edged sword.



    .

  29. #129
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    ^^^ Good points. Then there are the really thick bottom "pint" glasses and the ones that are only 14 ounces. Kind of the point here. Not a huge deal when the beers were $ 4-5.00 Now they are $ 6, 8 and 10 bucks each.

  30. #130
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    There is one answer to this dilemma.....Brew Your Own!!! Start homebrewing, one the best things I ever did for my wallet and its fun!


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