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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I've downed hundreds of thousands of cans of beer.

    No moobs.

    I call BS.
    Agreed.


    The whole BPA on the can linings thing is a major red herring. There is no science to back it up.

    Seems that rich here is just another tin foil wearing anti-beer guy.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Agreed.


    The whole BPA on the can linings thing is a major red herring. There is no science to back it up.

    Seems that rich here is just another tin foil wearing anti-beer guy.
    No science to back it up? C'mon man, any simple search on Google will turn up tons of scientific data. And if you actually pay attention, it's not just BPA that's a problem. BPA is just one compound that was identified because of it's effects on children. The reality is that ALL plastics are a problem, and nobody is paying attention.

    "Currently, no federal agency tests the toxicity of new materials before they are allowed on the market."

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-as-hazardous/


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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Agreed.


    The whole BPA on the can linings thing is a major red herring. There is no science to back it up.

    Seems that rich here is just another tin foil wearing anti-beer guy.
    While rich is certainly a bit kooky on plenty of things, he IS right that bpa is a problem. There absolutely IS science supporting that it (among other chemicals in plastics) is a hormone disruptor that mimics estrogens.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...oq=bpa+hormone

    Quite a lot of it, too (10,100 results in the above search).

    With that said, bpa exposure is not the same all the time. There are variables that affect greatly humans' exposure to it even when it (and other plastics) are used in food packaging. At low temps, not nearly as much leaches into food. At high temps, yeah, quite a lot of it leaches out.

    So here's a question - do you ever microwave food in plastic containers? THAT is going to be a big source of exposure to bpa and other plasticizers (chemicals that keep plastic from getting brittle). Have you ever cooked beans IN the can over a campfire cowboy-style? Hopefully not anytime recently, because those cans are now lined with plastics, many contain bpa, and heating up those cans over the fire will absolutely leach bpa and all kinds of other plastic chemicals into the food inside.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuhl View Post
    Drink more whiskey.
    Speaking of prices getting stupid!

    Many Scotch distilleries are going away from aged-based single-malt whiskys and are marketing "Expressions". They can add younger whiskies in to the mix and they don't lower the price. In turn the older whiskies are sky rocketing. When I turned 40 in 2009, a bunch of people chipped in and bought me a bottle of Laphroaig 30 year-old. It was $199.

    That 30 year old was discontinued shortly after and then reintroduced a few years later. The Laphroaig 30 can now be bought for $850. Insane!
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Agreed.

    The whole BPA on the can linings thing is a major red herring. There is no science to back it up.

    Seems that rich here is just another tin foil wearing anti-beer guy.
    What??!! I was planning to get drunk and play with my own moobs. I guess I need to come up with a Plan B... :-(

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    It's not that simple. The metallic taste is still there, it's a blunted, plastic taste and the carbonation is also noticeably weaker from canned beer whether it's poured into a glass or not. It tastes better in a glass than in a can, but the taste is still different. The entire beer's taste and carbonation is blunted with canning. It's with every canned beer, not just a few. I won't buy Foster's cans anymore because they just do not taste the same as the bottled version, and I haven't even tasted that bottled version in about 10 years (they don't import Foster's bottles to the USA anymore). I remember the bottled taste well, I'm not hallucinating. That's just my experience. If you can't taste the difference, then ignorance is bliss. I've met people who can't taste the difference between Budweiser cans and imported European bottles, and while I feel sorry for them, at least they are saving money I guess. I ride two cheap bikes, and you are more than welcome to bash on them, in exchange for me bashing on canned beer...

    A couple of other 'inconvenient truths' for you canned beer drinkers: as the article below states, craft beer is only 12.5% canned as of July 2017. It will grow as a percentage, but it's still a small fraction of beer produced compared to bottled beer.

    Second, and more serious, is that the plastic lining (bisphenol-A) in canned beer is an estrogen mimic, like many other plastics that leach into food and drinks. Soy products and many other foods are also estrogen mimics. What does that mean for a canned beer drinker? Estrogen mimics end up feminizing males. Ever seen a beer drinker with bitch t--s? It's not just being overweight, it's what they are eating and drinking, it's the quality, or lack of, what they ingest that grows breasts on a male. There are overweight males out there with no noticeable breasts, because they don't eat/drink estrogen mimics. Their testosterone/estrogen + estrogen mimic ratio may not be optimal but it's better than the men with breasts. I'm not overweight but I also don't want to grow breasts, thank you very much...

    I also read an article on Japanese men who ate tofu daily for decades, and their brains shrank an average of 10% compared with men who didn't eat tofu. Their brains also had holes in certain regions, that looked on the MRI screen similar to pre-alzheimers or schizophrenia. Tofu also has multiple estrogen mimics in the food. If you'd like to see that article PM me and I'll try to find it.



    Here is the canned beer article below, snipped for brevity:

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/article...your-beer-can/

    Bisphenol Pale Ale: Should You Be Worried About the BPA in Your Beer Can?
    Beer and Health by Aleszu Bajak | Jun 2017 | Issue #125

    Americaís gone crazy for canned craft beer. According to the Brewers Association, one in eight beers sold by US craft breweries today is consumed out of a can. Though bottles still make up the lionís share of packaging among craft breweries, the popularity of cansómostly among smaller companies opting for aluminum over glassóhas increased dramatically in recent years. ďIt was 2 percent of craft volume when we benchmarked in 2011, and 10 percent in 2014,Ē says Bart Watson, the trade groupís chief economist.

    But BPA has a dark side. Biologically speaking, the compound looks eerily similar to estrogen, meaning it can act like estrogen, a powerful hormone, if it gets into the body. When ingested, tasteless and odorless BPA can disrupt biological processes and interfere with the reproductive and nervous systems as well as behavioral development, especially in infants with underdeveloped digestive systems that insufficiently metabolize the chemical. Thatís why the US Food and Drug Administration has banned BPA from baby bottles, sippy cups, and packaging for infant formula.

    ďEvery aluminum beverage can has a BPA lining,Ē says Katie Wallace, assistant director of sustainability at New Belgium Brewing and chair of the Brewers Associationís sustainability committee. ďFor beverages, itís the only option.Ē

    ďHuman exposure to bisphenol A is widespread and it does quantifiably leach into beer.Ē ...thereís a serious lack of science on the health effects of BPA and what has been studied leaves room for a lot of uncertainty. The more acidic the beverage, the greater the chance it will degrade the lining, says Hartle, and that could cause BPA to leach out. With an average pH around 4, beer is generally fairly acidic.

    ďA lot of us eat canned food and drink canned beer,Ē says Geller. ďThatís all adding up to your daily body burden for BPA. The concern is even if you have exposure from beer cans, itís something we should be worried about in terms of cumulative exposure.Ē
    I'm not a super taster, but I accept that there may be people who can detect the difference between the same beer in a can or bottle, even controlling for UV exposure and age. Despite most brewers I know telling me otherwise. But making that argument with Fosters? That's like a food blogger making a big deal about the difference between Showbiz and Chuck-E-Cheese pizzas. The claim to authority takes a hit.

    As Harold points out, plasticizers are just about ubiquitous. If you threw away your Nalgene when the first BPA scare made the news, you haven't eliminated much exposure. BPA is only one of many plasticizers, and only one of many endocrine disruptors. We don't know what the human health hazards and risk are for endocrine disruptors and other pharmaceuticals and personal care products (PPCPs in the lingo). We're talking about concentrations in parts per trillion, so even the sampling and analysis is difficult. To top it off, there's no effective water treatment for these compounds at those concentrations.

    You live in the San Diego area, right? Well, you live downstream of a lot of other communities, and you very likely have low concentrations of PPCPs in your drinking water. Many large communities do, because they pass right through wastewater treatment.

    There's certainly an argument for limiting your exposure where you can, but given the background level of exposure just from modern living in the US, the amount of canned beer I drink is insignificant - especially when it's kept cold. It's not enough of a worry to override more immediate considerations such as portability, crushability, and lack of glass. Anyone who spends any time on a river thinks canned craft beer is a phenomenal idea. It's also much better for carrying to the top of the last hill in your bike pack.

  7. #107
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    I actually usually opt for bottles in the pack.

    I've yet to break a bottle, but I've had a number of cans end up punctured and filling my pack with sudz.

    Pro tip.

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    While rich is certainly a bit kooky on plenty of things, he IS right that bpa is a problem. There absolutely IS science supporting that it (among other chemicals in plastics) is a hormone disruptor that mimics estrogens.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...oq=bpa+hormone

    Quite a lot of it, too (10,100 results in the above search).

    With that said, bpa exposure is not the same all the time. There are variables that affect greatly humans' exposure to it even when it (and other plastics) are used in food packaging. At low temps, not nearly as much leaches into food. At high temps, yeah, quite a lot of it leaches out.

    So here's a question - do you ever microwave food in plastic containers? THAT is going to be a big source of exposure to bpa and other plasticizers (chemicals that keep plastic from getting brittle). Have you ever cooked beans IN the can over a campfire cowboy-style? Hopefully not anytime recently, because those cans are now lined with plastics, many contain bpa, and heating up those cans over the fire will absolutely leach bpa and all kinds of other plastic chemicals into the food inside.
    I microwave stuff in glass, but have used plastic in the past.

    Do you know if any of that research is for BPA exposure when drinking cold beer that was stored in a can?

    I am going to turn 40 this year, when should I expect moobs? I do not have an estrogen problem at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    There's certainly an argument for limiting your exposure where you can, but given the background level of exposure just from modern living in the US, the amount of canned beer I drink is insignificant - especially when it's kept cold. It's not enough of a worry to override more immediate considerations such as portability, crushability, and lack of glass. Anyone who spends any time on a river thinks canned craft beer is a phenomenal idea. It's also much better for carrying to the top of the last hill in your bike pack.
    well said, freaking out about a tiny amount of BPA in the lining of a can of beer is tin foil hat stuff.... Not gonna hurt anyone.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I microwave stuff in glass, but have used plastic in the past.

    Do you know if any of that research is for BPA exposure when drinking cold beer that was stored in a can?

    I am going to turn 40 this year, when should I expect moobs? I do not have an estrogen problem at all.

    freaking out about a tiny amount of BPA in the lining of a can of beer is tin foil hat stuff.... Not gonna hurt anyone.
    There was a test run in Canada. They found BPA in eight out of eight canned samples of beer. In eight samples of bottled beer, only one was contaminated.

    I'll concede to canned beer having it's advantages in certain situations (camping, traveling, etc.) and with the pervasiveness of BPA in the American food supply, a few cans on a camping trip certainly isn't going tip the scales one way or the other, but in terms of picking out a six pack to take home, why add to the BPA tally when there are good bottled beers right next to them on the shelf?

    In light of this discussion, my trip to the supermarket this morning was illuminating. It's amazing how much stuff in packaged in plastic, plastic lined cartons, plastic lined cans, etc. I definitely looked at it more today, and definitely bought more stuff packaged in glass, or not packaged at all. The beer I bought was also in glass.

    Tinfoil hat stuff? Maybe. But what's it going to hurt to avoid BPA where you can if it isn't a problem? On the other hand, ignoring it if is a problem might not turn out so well. Ever notice the primary effects of BPA exposure are also endemic to the American population? Obesity, diabetes, vitamin D deficiency, cancer, arthritis, heart disease, etc.


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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    There was a test run in Canada. They found BPA in eight out of eight canned samples of beer. In eight samples of bottled beer, only one was contaminated.

    I'll concede to canned beer having it's advantages in certain situations (camping, traveling, etc.) and with the pervasiveness of BPA in the American food supply, a few cans on a camping trip certainly isn't going tip the scales one way or the other, but in terms of picking out a six pack to take home, why add to the BPA tally when there are good bottled beers right next to them on the shelf?

    In light of this discussion, my trip to the supermarket this morning was illuminating. It's amazing how much stuff in packaged in plastic, plastic lined cartons, plastic lined cans, etc. I definitely looked at it more today, and definitely bought more stuff packaged in glass, or not packaged at all. The beer I bought was also in glass.

    Tinfoil hat stuff? Maybe. But what's it going to hurt to avoid BPA where you can if it isn't a problem? On the other hand, ignoring it if is a problem might not turn out so well. Ever notice the primary effects of BPA exposure are also endemic to the American population? Obesity, diabetes, vitamin D deficiency, cancer, arthritis, heart disease, etc.


    .
    So CAD beers, not USA? Hmmm. American population? Lazy. Soda, chips, lack of exercise, smoking have nothing to do with this? MA guy here, 75% of the craft beer is canned, kind of a mute point.

  11. #111
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    Interesting...never heard the whole thing about cans and linings and man-boobs but I think I have enough 'experience' to rule it out as a concern for me. At 58 I've consumed thousands of cans of beer in the last 40 years...some of it has even been warm. I should have quite the RACK by now!

    But one thing that's a definite no-no for me...I NEVER microwave my beer in plastic...that's just crazy!
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    So CAD beers, not USA? Hmmm. American population? Lazy. Soda, chips, lack of exercise, smoking have nothing to do with this? MA guy here, 75% of the craft beer is canned, kind of a mute point.
    It's "moot", genius.

    Guess we can add cognitive disabilities to the list.


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    Quote Originally Posted by sturge View Post
    Interesting...never heard the whole thing about cans and linings and man-boobs but I think I have enough 'experience' to rule it out as a concern for me. At 58 I've consumed thousands of cans of beer in the last 40 years...some of it has even been warm. I should have quite the RACK by now!

    But one thing that's a definite no-no for me...I NEVER microwave my beer in plastic...that's just crazy!
    I would think that at this point, most people in modern society wouldn't have a clue how their bodies should be without bpa. We are probably all hormonal wrecks at this point.

    https://www.wired.com/2015/03/secret...modern-marvel/

    It seems that cans have had plastic liners since the 30s, but those liners have changed significantly over the years.

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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I would think that at this point, most people in modern society wouldn't have a clue how their bodies should be without bpa. We are probably all hormonal wrecks at this point.

    https://www.wired.com/2015/03/secret...modern-marvel/

    It seems that cans have had plastic liners since the 30s, but those liners have changed significantly over the years.

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  15. #115
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    Went to this chain restaurant called World of Beer last night with my wife and 2 friends. The bartender presented all of our $7 pints with 3-4 ounces missing. I very politely asked him to top them off or give us a small glass of it. He refused and said the pour is 16oz, the glasses are bigger. So I then ordered a 16oz can of something else and poured it in the glass in front of him. Filled it to the brim. Then a whole thing erupted with the manager, it was ridiculous.

    Prices are prices, whatever. But if you engage in systemically ripping off hundreds of people a day I'm not keeping my mouth shut. Guys at the bar next to us said they always pour short.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Went to this chain restaurant called World of Beer last night with my wife and 2 friends. The bartender presented all of our $7 pints with 3-4 ounces missing. I very politely asked him to top them off or give us a small glass of it. He refused and said the pour is 16oz, the glasses are bigger. So I then ordered a 16oz can of something else and poured it in the glass in front of him. Filled it to the brim. Then a whole thing erupted with the manager, it was ridiculous.

    Prices are prices, whatever. But if you engage in systemically ripping off hundreds of people a day I'm not keeping my mouth shut. Guys at the bar next to us said they always pour short.
    Yeah, if you're going to give me an 8 or 12oz pour, then put that on the menu so I know what I'm actually paying for. But telling customers they're getting 16oz when they actually get 12 is not cool, and quite likely against the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitflogger View Post
    FYI. The whole book is good.
    You mean "Rust: The Longest War"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Yeah, if you're going to give me an 8 or 12oz pour, then put that on the menu so I know what I'm actually paying for. But telling customers they're getting 16oz when they actually get 12 is not cool, and quite likely against the law.
    It's standard practice industry wide, and not necessarily because they're trying to rip you off. The beer snobs will get upset with you as a bartender if you serve a shaker/pint glass filled the tip top, because a head on the beer is considered proper presentation. A lot of times, the head on the beer won't hold up long enough for it to get to the customer intact, but that's because of slow service and/or it's a poorly made beer....usually the latter.

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're worried about ounces per $$$, you shouldn't be drinking in a bar. You're already paying 4-6 times retail, what difference does a couple ounces make? There's nothing worse than a cheapskate connoisseur.


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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    You mean "Rust: The Longest War"?
    Yes, an excerpt was posted.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    It's standard practice industry wide, and not necessarily because they're trying to rip you off. The beer snobs will get upset with you as a bartender if you serve a shaker/pint glass filled the tip top, because a head on the beer is considered proper presentation. A lot of times, the head on the beer won't hold up long enough for it to get to the customer intact, but that's because of slow service and/or it's a poorly made beer....usually the latter.

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're worried about ounces per $$$, you shouldn't be drinking in a bar. You're already paying 4-6 times retail, what difference does a couple ounces make? There's nothing worse than a cheapskate connoisseur.


    .
    The beer in question doesn't pour with a head. Have had it in probably a dozen bars and it never does. And there was no transit time, he was right in front of us.
    Anyway, be an apologist, but don't call me a cheapskate. There's plenty of bars around here that pour to the top; who will continue to get the generous tips we leave. As a bartender, arguing with people only substantiates that it's management practice, not just poor technique (pun intended). And if the guy just said that, I would have left it alone. Either way, never going back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    It's standard practice industry wide, and not necessarily because they're trying to rip you off. The beer snobs will get upset with you as a bartender if you serve a shaker/pint glass filled the tip top, because a head on the beer is considered proper presentation.
    .
    If they're sticklers for 'presentation' and charge for a 16oz beer, they oughta be pouring into 20oz glasses.
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    In Germany, beer glasses have a line below the top with the capacity printed next to it. Never a short pour there, and plenty of room for the head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    In Germany, beer glasses have a line below the top with the capacity printed next to it. Never a short pour there, and plenty of room for the head.

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    Lots of smaller tulip and snifter glasses have a line for an 8oz or 12oz pour. Definitely rare to see that on a pint (or larger) glass.

    I am also not a cheapskate. I pay what the beer costs, whatever that is. It is more about truth in advertising, honesty, and those kinds of issues. If you aren't going to pour 15-16oz of beer into my glass, don't call it a pint. And if the beer in question has such a thick head that you wind up with substantially less than a pint in an actual pint glass, then put it in a bigger glass.

    When a smaller glass is used that has a volume line, i have always received pours where the head begins ABOVE the fill line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're worried about ounces per $$$, you shouldn't be drinking in a bar. You're already paying 4-6 times retail, what difference does a couple ounces make?
    It depends on the beer and the bar. Some beers (especially Belgians) are expensive anywhere I can get them. Happy hour pricing for one of my favorites is cheaper than buying it at the store, and regular pricing only a buck or so more.

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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    It's standard practice industry wide, and not necessarily because they're trying to rip you off. The beer snobs will get upset with you as a bartender if you serve a shaker/pint glass filled the tip top, because a head on the beer is considered proper presentation. A lot of times, the head on the beer won't hold up long enough for it to get to the customer intact, but that's because of slow service and/or it's a poorly made beer....usually the latter.

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're worried about ounces per $$$, you shouldn't be drinking in a bar. You're already paying 4-6 times retail, what difference does a couple ounces make? There's nothing worse than a cheapskate connoisseur.


    .
    It's about truth in advertising. So you OK with your 18 oz steak ( before cooking) to be 16 oz? Order 10 chix wings and get 9. Same thing. Do you actually want a full gallon of gas? 16 oz is a pint, if that's what they are selling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    It's "moot", genius.

    Guess we can add cognitive disabilities to the list.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Went to this chain restaurant called World of Beer last night with my wife and 2 friends. The bartender presented all of our $7 pints with 3-4 ounces missing. I very politely asked him to top them off or give us a small glass of it. He refused and said the pour is 16oz, the glasses are bigger. So I then ordered a 16oz can of something else and poured it in the glass in front of him. Filled it to the brim. Then a whole thing erupted with the manager, it was ridiculous.

    Prices are prices, whatever. But if you engage in systemically ripping off hundreds of people a day I'm not keeping my mouth shut. Guys at the bar next to us said they always pour short.
    wow, that is bad. I would def avoid places like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    It's about truth in advertising. So you OK with your 18 oz steak ( before cooking) to be 16 oz? Order 10 chix wings and get 9. Same thing. Do you actually want a full gallon of gas? 16 oz is a pint, if that's what they are selling.
    Ya know, I can't think of a single time in the past decade that I've gone to a restaurant and ordered anything by weight or quantity. I pick an item on the menu, they serve it, I eat it. Sometimes the serving is smaller than expected, sometimes it's too much, but whatever, that's how they serve it. If I wasn't happy, I don't order it again, or I don't go there again.

    Same with beer. Maybe some places do quantify the serving size, but it's usually more along the lines of a small or large, this kind of glass or that. Your typical shaker/pint glass is 16oz to the brim, but proper presentation is with an inch of head. Do they owe you an ounce or two after you drink it down a bit? Is the head part of a "pint of beer"? Do you care about proper presentation, or are you more concerned with ounces per $$$? Did they actually sell it as a pint of beer (16oz)? Or is it just served in a "pint glass"? The places that make a big stink about a "true pint" or putting a line on the glass are more the exception than the rule in my experience.

    Relative the under-filled scenario above....the server really screwed the pooch there. He should have just topped off the glass, or given him a half pint, and kept the customer happy. Lord knows, for the markup they're taking on alcohol, they can afford to give away a few ounces to keep the odd "price conscious" customer appeased. Especially when you consider that he's going to walk out the door and run his mouth up and down the internet about how he got "ripped off".

    At the end of the day, the customer walks in the door knowing he's getting screwed, so he shouldn't be crying about a couple ounces here or there, and the bar owner shouldn't be skimping on the pour considering the profit they're taking. It's a double edged sword.



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    ^^^ Good points. Then there are the really thick bottom "pint" glasses and the ones that are only 14 ounces. Kind of the point here. Not a huge deal when the beers were $ 4-5.00 Now they are $ 6, 8 and 10 bucks each.

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    There is one answer to this dilemma.....Brew Your Own!!! Start homebrewing, one the best things I ever did for my wallet and its fun!


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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Went to this chain restaurant called World of Beer last night with my wife and 2 friends. The bartender presented all of our $7 pints with 3-4 ounces missing. I very politely asked him to top them off or give us a small glass of it. He refused and said the pour is 16oz, the glasses are bigger. So I then ordered a 16oz can of something else and poured it in the glass in front of him. Filled it to the brim. Then a whole thing erupted with the manager, it was ridiculous.

    Prices are prices, whatever. But if you engage in systemically ripping off hundreds of people a day I'm not keeping my mouth shut. Guys at the bar next to us said they always pour short.
    wow! incredible rip-off! I am now wondering if same thing happened to me at Yard House recently. The pour looked a little short to me but I donít raise an issue. After reading your experience I am going to question them if it happens again.

    Pour what I am paying for, or list it as lower quantity. Use a larger glass if need room for the head. It really does not take much effort to be honest.

    Somewhat of an aside, was in Arizona for 10 days recently, Phoenix and Tucson, for vacation, we ate out for dinner every night and for the first time in a long time I mainly ordered beer in a can, e.g., Flagstaff IPA. I was wondering whether more craft/micro is starting to go can route? Tasted great, donít have to worry about the pour.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    I was wondering whether more craft/micro is starting to go can route? Tasted great, donít have to worry about the pour.
    Yes, cans are getting be the dominant form of packaging now. Primarily because there are mobile canning operations who travel from one brewery to another and can small batches for them. Secondarily, they're easier/cheaper to ship, and people like the crushability of a can.

    Downside is that all cans are lined with plastic, and toxic chemicals leach into your beer. New Belgium has a write up on their website explaining that they've been asking Ball Corp (can manufacturer) for a non-toxic solution, but nothing has been developed yet. If that's of any concern to you, glass is still king.


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    I am not really concerned about the BPA leaching from liners, but thanks for the information on the resurgence in canning.

    However, I am concerned about the chance that possible tariffs on aluminum/steel will drive up the cost of my beer...and bikes.

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...a/faq-20058331

    http://allaboutbeer.com/article/canned-mythology/


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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    However, I am concerned about the chance that possible tariffs on aluminum/steel will drive up the cost of my beer...and bikes.
    Tariffs will have zero (real) effect on the cost of your beer cans or bike frames.....unless your bike and beer cans are weighed in tons. Average car has one ton of steel. If steel goes up $100/ton, will anyone notice? No, but I do expect a wide variety of manufacturers to raise their prices and place the blame on tariffs.


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    https://www.cheatsheet.com/culture/a...tml/?a=viewall

    Unfortunately this online article suffers from long-running script lag so you may need to refresh the webpage a few times. I know this will not end the beer price debate, because a large percentage of people are not mathematically inclined and don't understand the concept of inflation-adjusted pricing. The alternative news channels love those people as fresh meat for their pseudoscience indoctrination. So this is to instead end the debate for those who do understand the concept of inflation-adjusted pricing.

    The pricing below is for one 16-oz pint of beer purchased at a bar, both real pricing and adjusted for inflation; there are dozens of numbers over decades so I'll just pick the ones every 5 years or so for you to see the trend:

    1955 $0.67, adjusted for inflation $5.91

    1960 $0.71, adjusted for inflation $5.77

    1965 $0.74, adjusted for inflation $5.65

    1970 $0.86, adjusted for inflation $5.55

    1975 $1.09, adjusted for inflation $5.23

    1980 $1.42, adjusted for inflation $4.23

    1985 $1.75, adjusted for inflation $3.99

    1990 $2.03, adjusted for inflation $4.07 (real price has stabilized from 1985 to now)

    1995 $2.64, adjusted for inflation $4.06

    2000 $2.88, adjusted for inflation $4.09

    2005 $3.23, adjusted for inflation $4.05

    2010 $3.68, adjusted for inflation $4.06

    2015 $3.95, adjusted for inflation $3.95
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    I know the pint glasses at my local spot are 14 ounces and with head they are about 12 on average. Iíd go to a different bar for my outings but there isnít one. Oh well. In my opinion, I donít feel itís cheap to complain that they are falsely advertising a pint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    1975 $1.09, adjusted for inflation $5.23
    2015 $3.95, adjusted for inflation $3.95
    I don't know anywhere that serves a pint that cheap outside of happy hour, and even then, most still aren't that cheap.

    Your math also fails to consider the wage stagnation. The average working class man hasn't has a raise since 1973, so if we use your retail pricing for a beer, actual cost (as a percentage of income) has quadrupled.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.62cfab4cb2db

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Tariffs will have zero (real) effect on the cost of your beer cans or bike frames.....unless your bike and beer cans are weighed in tons. Average car has one ton of steel. If steel goes up $100/ton, will anyone notice? No, but I do expect a wide variety of manufacturers to raise their prices and place the blame on tariffs.


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    The beer that i buy is not weighed in tons, but the industry does not buy aluminum in six pack amounts either.

    It is likely to cost the industry a lot of money and for no reason. But I suppose if Canada is forever exempt then the harm is also lessened significantly. I expect that Canada is number one supplier of aluminum to the USA.

    Companies can shift to bottles I suppose. The incidence of the tax does not all get passed directly to consumers in a competitive market like this one, so I wonder who also bears the cost? Oh yeah, probably the inputs that can be jettisoned.


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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    But it's like someone around here's signature says, mountain biking is a lot cheaper than a heart attack from clogged arteries and similar health problems caused by a lack of exercise. Especially if you don't crash and end up in the ER!
    Even crashing is cheaper than a heart attack. If I didn't have insurance my last ER visit would have run $17K (without an overnight stay), but that elbow is healed now with very few residuals. Talk to anyone with heart disease, they've got residuals.
    The most expensive bike in the world is still cheaper than the cheapest open heart surgery.

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    When is happy hour?

    I never got into the craft brewing beer bars.I like light beer when I drink once in awhile.

    Even though places I live and visit in N. Ca and Oregon have 100's of these places.

    I guess having kids and my wild party days are over.Going out to eat to most restaurants that sometimes do not even serve beer happens a lot.

    Once it warms up some,I plan to hit A few pubs around Auburn,Loomis area.

    Also my wife does not drink,she is smarter.I do like beer with my pizza and burgers sometimes.But agree prices are getting higher in most places I visit that serve alcohol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Upon further consideration, it's not beer prices that are getting stupid, it was my level of consumption. Drink less, spend less.


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    I need to practice this, but it's really hard.

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    I only get ipa or good brew when I go out with friends , daily home beer is usual Coronas , Michelobe amber.

    A lot of these micro brew iPaís taste pretty nasty and bitter .


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    Quote Originally Posted by socalpete View Post
    I only get ipa or good brew when I go out with friends , daily home beer is usual Coronas , Michelobe amber.

    A lot of these micro brew iPaís taste pretty nasty and bitter .


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    I'm pretty much off "craft" beer entirely now after starting a low carb diet (keto). Down 15 pounds in 6 weeks so far. Miller Lite, Mich Ultra, and whiskey is about it. Picked up an 18 pack of ML for $14 recently, so it's "Lite" on the wallet too.

    Somebody here in another thread said that drinking IPA's is like eating jelly donuts, and it's totally true. They're loaded with carbs (sugar), more than donuts in a lot of cases. I don't think people consider the calorie load, and sugars in craft beer like they should. I know I didn't.

    I pretty much lost my taste for high-hop beers about a year ago anyhow, after taking a few months off from drinking, so I know what you mean about being overly bitter and nasty.



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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    I'm pretty much off "craft" beer entirely now after starting a low carb diet (keto). Down 15 pounds in 6 weeks so far. Miller Lite, Mich Ultra, and whiskey is about it. Picked up an 18 pack of ML for $14 recently, so it's "Lite" on the wallet too.

    Somebody here in another thread said that drinking IPA's is like eating jelly donuts, and it's totally true. They're loaded with carbs (sugar), more than donuts in a lot of cases. I don't think people consider the calorie load, and sugars in craft beer like they should. I know I didn't.

    I pretty much lost my taste for high-hop beers about a year ago anyhow, after taking a few months off from drinking, so I know what you mean about being overly bitter and nasty.



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    Last week I noticed a product in the beer section at Trader Joes that I think is marketed as gluten free beer. It is gluten free__ and in the beer section. It lists 5 carbs per 12 oz can. I bought a 12 pack of it and it seems more like flavored carbonated water, but in a good way and 6%+ alcohol content. I think I am going to get more of this for the low carbs, as the hop bombs I typically buy like Hazy are too much bad carbs. For monitoring weight.


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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    I'm pretty much off "craft" beer entirely now after starting a low carb diet (keto). Down 15 pounds in 6 weeks so far. Miller Lite, Mich Ultra, and whiskey is about it. Picked up an 18 pack of ML for $14 recently, so it's "Lite" on the wallet too.

    Somebody here in another thread said that drinking IPA's is like eating jelly donuts, and it's totally true. They're loaded with carbs (sugar), more than donuts in a lot of cases. I don't think people consider the calorie load, and sugars in craft beer like they should. I know I didn't.

    I pretty much lost my taste for high-hop beers about a year ago anyhow, after taking a few months off from drinking, so I know what you mean about being overly bitter and nasty.



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    The real issue with beer is the Maltose. It's what causes "beer belly" (apparently) according to the South Beach Diet (wife's current plan). I'm good though, tequila is both gluten free and maltose free.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    The real issue with beer is the Maltose. It's what causes "beer belly" (apparently) according to the South Beach Diet (wife's current plan). I'm good though, tequila is both gluten free and maltose free.
    Under a keto plan, there are no "good" carbs, no matter what you're eating/drinking. You're forcing your body to run on fat, and introducing too many carbs keeps that from happening. I'm taking in fewer than 30 grams of carbohydrate a day right now, so even one craft beer can screw it all up.

    As for drink less / spend less, we have a new taproom in town where you pour your own beer, and you're charged by the ounce. Pour yourself full pints, or a bunch of 2oz samples, it's up to you. Super expensive by the ounce, but the tracking system cuts everyone off at 32oz, so you can walk out the door spending less than a lot of other places in town, and without being "overserved". I was a little pissy about the price per ounce up front, but it's fun. Kind of like a pour your own mini beer fest, and really not too expensive for the experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    The real issue with beer is the Maltose. It's what causes "beer belly" (apparently) according to the South Beach Diet (wife's current plan). I'm good though, tequila is both gluten free and maltose free.
    Beer contains little to no maltose.

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    I was shooting the breeze with a bartender here in Montpelier and we got to talking about beer prices and how insane they're getting. He told me about a brewery in Southern VT called Hermit Thrush and how they charge $18 for a 16 oz can and almost $60 for a 4 pack.

    Beer tourism here in Vermont is great for many reasons - it ups the bar for quality beer and brings people here to spend $ but it seems like some brewers are verging on price gouging at times and taking advantage of beer tourists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    I was shooting the breeze with a bartender here in Montpelier and we got to talking about beer prices and how insane they're getting. He told me about a brewery in Southern VT called Hermit Thrush and how they charge $18 for a 16 oz can and almost $60 for a 4 pack.

    Beer tourism here in Vermont is great for many reasons - it ups the bar for quality beer and brings people here to spend $ but it seems like some brewers are verging on price gouging at times and taking advantage of beer tourists.
    Wow! The signs of a bubble about to burst!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    I was going to hit the new brewery about 20 miles from me- great beer, good atmosphere, but no food. Then I got to thinking: why should I drive all that way, have a couple of beers, buy a growler to bring home, risk a DUI on the way home, all for almost $40? (Growler=$20, 2 beers=$14 plus a $2 or $3 tip. Oh, yeah, plus gas and maybe the $10k+ DUI) That's crazy. I could go to Raley's and buy 4 six-packs (24 beers!) of really good different beers for the same price, plus drink (some of) it at home without repercussions (well, aside from the usual drunken posts ).

    It's stupid. Beer venues are really over-priced, and I'm starting to second-guess my barleypop spending habits. And tipping a buck for someone smiling, turning around and pouring a beer and handing it to me? Jeez.

    I went to a friend's house last weekend and stocked up on the Naughty Native IPA brewed by the local casino (Feather Falls in Oroville). The Grocery Outlet has bombers of this nectar for $4 each. That's a beer-and-a-half for half the price of what the local breweries charge for a freaking pint.

    Has anyone else begun to rebel against the stupid-high prices these places charge? Or am I just old and crotchety?
    Eating and drinking out is expensive. My rule is 10% tip for food, and $1 per drink. I think itís reasonable.

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    What kills me is that on top of having to pay stupid prices for beer at tap rooms, they don't even have a server to bring you the beer. Unless you're sitting at the bar you have to go stand at the bar and wait on the bartender to pour you one. That often takes five or ten minutes. Heck with that... I guess I'm old school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgiannis View Post
    My rule is 10% tip for food, and $1 per drink. I think itís reasonable.
    No, it's not, at all. Trying to offset high menu prices by skimping on the tip is low class. If you can afford to pay stupid prices for food and drink, you can afford to pay a reasonable tip, which is 20% of the pretax bill, at least. In the absence of food, $1 per beer is acceptable imho. Cocktails that require more preparation should revert back to 20%.



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    Quote Originally Posted by TNTall View Post
    What kills me is that on top of having to pay stupid prices for beer at tap rooms, they don't even have a server to bring you the beer. Unless you're sitting at the bar you have to go stand at the bar and wait on the bartender to pour you one. That often takes five or ten minutes. Heck with that... I guess I'm old school.

    You complain bout the price of beer, but want them to have more staff to take your order without having to get up from the table? Taprooms are designed to have low overhead in order to exist. Increasing labor costs will only reduce the viability of having a tap room to begin with.

    You're not old school, you are lazy and entitled. More like a new school millennial hipster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgiannis View Post
    Eating and drinking out is expensive. My rule is 10% tip for food, and $1 per drink. I think itís reasonable.
    Hope you never have to wait tables for living. A$$. Eat at home if you are a cheapskate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Hope you never have to wait tables for living. A$$. Eat at home if you are a cheapskate.
    You may want to investigate why tipping is actually bad for our culture and only helps the business skimp on paying a decent wage to employees. Also the best form of tipping is repeat business and word of mouth.

    https://youtu.be/q_vivC7c_1k

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    No, it's not, at all. Trying to offset high menu prices by skimping on the tip is low class. If you can afford to pay stupid prices for food and drink, you can afford to pay a reasonable tip, which is 20% of the pretax bill, at least. In the absence of food, $1 per beer is acceptable imho. Cocktails that require more preparation should revert back to 20%.
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    I must have missed something, I thought the minimum tip was 15% not 20%. When did that change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StumpyXXL View Post
    You may want to investigate why tipping is actually bad for our culture and only helps the business skimp on paying a decent wage to employees. Also the best form of tipping is repeat business and word of mouth.

    https://youtu.be/q_vivC7c_1k
    You may want to investigate how much prices would go up if servers were getting paid by the restaurant the same as they are making in tips. Hint: your beer would be $10 a pint.

    Citing "Adam Ruins Everything"? Are you 15?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bipolarbear View Post
    You may want to investigate how much prices would go up if servers were getting paid by the restaurant the same as they are making in tips. Hint: your beer would be $10 a pint.

    Citing "Adam Ruins Everything"? Are you 15?
    Some people need some satirical comedy because they don't like reading facts and studies.

    I lived in Europe for some time and I found alcohol to be cheaper than home. Heck, sometimes cheaper than sparkling water. Also most of Europe finds tipping offensive yet it works for them and pretty much everywhere else in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockadile View Post
    I must have missed something, I thought the minimum tip was 15% not 20%. When did that change?
    "15 percent isnít an average tip Ė itís a way of registering displeasure with the service."

    https://www.today.com/food/25-new-st...-eat-1B5989931

    Quote Originally Posted by StumpyXXL View Post
    You may want to investigate why tipping is actually bad for our culture and only helps the business skimp on paying a decent wage to employees.
    Skimping on the tip isn't going to change anything, expect the quality of life of your server, and their family.



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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    "15 percent isnít an average tip Ė itís a way of registering displeasure with the service."

    https://www.today.com/food/25-new-st...-eat-1B5989931
    For every link you find, I am sure I could find one that states 15% for average service.

    https://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g...Etiquette.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    "15 percent isnít an average tip Ė itís a way of registering displeasure with the service."

    https://www.today.com/food/25-new-st...-eat-1B5989931



    Skimping on the tip isn't going to change anything, expect the quality of life of your server, and their family.



    .
    Yet nearly all of Europe and Asia does not tip so are service industry people and their families quality of life are inferior by your own summation?

    The only ones benefiting from keeping wages low and service industry people relying on tips are the old guys at the top. Since were talking beer, Miller Coors CEO was payed $5.5 million in 2016. MillerCoors pays CEO $5.5 million in 2016, more than double his 2015 compensation - Chicago Tribune

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    Quote Originally Posted by StumpyXXL View Post
    Yet nearly all of Europe and Asia does not tip so are service industry people and their families quality of life are inferior by your own summation?

    The only ones benefiting from keeping wages low and service industry people relying on tips are the old guys at the top. Since were talking beer, Miller Coors CEO was payed $5.5 million in 2016. MillerCoors pays CEO $5.5 million in 2016, more than double his 2015 compensation - Chicago Tribune
    Dude, I'm not arguing that. I'd love to see the tipping system eliminated, but until that happens, your shitty tip is nothing but a pay cut for the server.


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    Foreigner here - why are drinks tipped by drink and food by the cost? Tax issue or what?

    OT: I've been to US many times, and find it to be the land of extra charges. No price is final. Add tax, tips, service charges and fees, and my absolute favorite "convenience fees". Not saying it's better or worse, just different.

    With your tipping culture you get usually good and efficient service and enough servers, but they do get annoyingly friendly some times and keep interrupting you all the time.

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    I was at a brewpub in Seattle awhile back that only accepts credit/debit. No cash because it's way easier for their servers to quickly move from customer to customer. The place was HOPPIN (no pun intended). They also don't allow tipping because their folks make a "living wage". I asked about it and the person I spoke with, who came from California, liked the arrangement. The beer prices were on a par with other brewpubs.

    Incidentally, they also didn't serve food, but had food trucks come in every afternoon at 5:30. Different trucks every day and some awesome food. The place is in an old car dealer's building and they use two of the old service bays for the food trucks.

    Cool place!

    edit: Just googled it and it's called, Optimism Brewing Company.
    One gear is all you need.

  66. #166
    _CJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt.Ogg View Post
    Foreigner here - why are drinks tipped by drink and food by the cost? Tax issue or what?
    It's more of a standard for the service, and a courtesy to the server. 20% is probably fine in most instances, but there's no reason the server should be shorted just because it's happy hour, or $1 beer night or whatever.

    A lot of people who have never worked as a bartender or waiter like to argue semantics about how little work is involved in serving a beer, etc. but those of us who have worked in the industry know all the work that gets done behind the scenes, after hours, etc. that the tip is also paying for.

    I can assure you, nobody is getting rich serving beer at your local brewery or tap room. In most cases, they're just getting by, and having some douchebag short them on the tip because "that's how it is in Europe", or because they've decided 10% is reasonable, can have a real impact on their lives.



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  67. #167
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    I mean why are drink tips "fixed" price ($1-2) and food by the cost (20%). Why not fixed price with food also (what's the difference in serving $10 burger or $40 steak)?

    I'm ok with tipping. If anything I tend to play it safe. First times I double tipped as I did not understand what "gratuity fee" was and tipped on top of that too :-D

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt.Ogg View Post
    I mean why are drink tips "fixed" price ($1-2) and food by the cost (20%). Why not fixed price with food also (what's the difference in serving $10 burger or $40 steak)?
    ...
    In general, the idea is that at places with higher cost food, you're getting a higher level of service. Your neighborhood grill server might have 10 tables. Your fine dining establishment maybe has 5 to devote attention to.

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