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Thread: Craft vs Crafty

  1. #1
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    Craft vs Crafty

    This is a good article, not really news to many of the regulars in this forum, but it could be an eye opener to some.

    Craft or crafty? Consumers deserve to know the truth : Stltoday
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    Showed up in my inbox this morning, and I said to myself "Oh goody, new dirt on the faux craft from macros", but (as you mentioned) not much we didn't already know.

    Still a good read.

    It makes the whole Goose Island/Red Hook/Kona dichotomy that much more interesting.
    I take no issue with the quality of their beers, but hate the idea that profits are not really helping the craft beer community (not in true small business fashion anyway).

    Part of me believes in the morality of exclusive patron-ship to the craft community as a whole, which leads me to chose well outside the web of conglomerate backed/owned brewers.
    The other part of me see a more romanticized advocacy plan, in which by standing by these once independent brewers, a habitue can help lift them out of what financial set backs put them into said situation and regain their independence.
    This of course assumes that the brewery so desires such an opportunity, after taking advantage of tapping into the larger money flow/distribution/etc., e.g. Terrapin.
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    I'm a pretty recent beer forum contributor, and I don't follow the beer blogs. This gets me in trouble from time to time here because I don't know all of the narratives that have been floating around for a long time. Makes me look like I'm trolling sometimes, but I'm just a beer-talk newb.

    So for me where this stuff about industry purity gets fuzzy is with the explosion of all these local craft brewers. It's a great thing and all, but I get the sense that a lot of corporate money is involved in funding a lot of these projects. Not for the love of beer, specifically, but for profits connected to the world outside the beer industry. How much of it is about promoting, say, real estate? Tourism? I'm not talking about the motives of the brewers themselves, but the money has to come from somwhere. Again, I don't have a problem with that either, other than I get a kind of "gold rush/fever" vibe about the industry over the last 10 years or so. But I guess that's just capitalism...at both its best and worst.

    I'm just talking here. Trying to get a feel for what people think. I don't want to get all worked up into an argument, so, please, cut me some slack.

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    I think it all depends on the brewery in question and how they go about getting funding.

    I happen to know a number of people at Iron Fist, and that was a major family effort. Years of savings and lots of family volunteer hours went into getting that place off the ground.

    Other guys in San Diego were able to get loans from the City directly.

    I cannot speak for all breweries, but the general feel in the craft brew field is to try and avoid Venture Capitalist money if at all possible.

    I think that Mother Earth in Vista, CA is also a family funded project.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    I'm a pretty recent beer forum contributor, and I don't follow the beer blogs. This gets me in trouble from time to time here because I don't know all of the narratives that have been floating around for a long time. Makes me look like I'm trolling sometimes, but I'm just a beer-talk newb.

    So for me where this stuff about industry purity gets fuzzy is with the explosion of all these local craft brewers. It's a great thing and all, but I get the sense that a lot of corporate money is involved in funding a lot of these projects. Not for the love of beer, specifically, but for profits connected to the world outside the beer industry. How much of it is about promoting, say, real estate? Tourism? I'm not talking about the motives of the brewers themselves, but the money has to come from somwhere. Again, I don't have a problem with that either, other than I get a kind of "gold rush/fever" vibe about the industry over the last 10 years or so. But I guess that's just capitalism...at both its best and worst.

    I'm just talking here. Trying to get a feel for what people think. I don't want to get all worked up into an argument, so, please, cut me some slack.
    IMHO - to some extent it is all about promoting and selling. Any brewery is in the buisness of selling beer. Making beer is easy - selling at a profit is hard. There has been brewery fever recently - and possibly a bubble building in the craft brewery market. It happened in the 90s and may happen again. Me, if I am given a choice I will choose a local provider before regional and national players. But, you still have to give props to the big boys. without them much of the research (hop strain development, sensory tools, lab techniques, etc.) that paved the way for the little guys wouldn't have happened. It's one of the reasons I cringe when I hear people bashing the macros and being macro-haters...
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    Quote Originally Posted by debaucherous View Post
    It's one of the reasons I cringe when I hear people bashing the macros and being macro-haters...
    Bashing of an erroneous nature, yes, I totally agree.
    Taking a hard, close look at the economics/quality/values of the macros is another story, and very much worth delving into to.
    Funneling profit off-shores, under cutting raw material suppliers to the point of affecting quality in favor of margins, and using a monopolized three-tier system against the competition are just a few of the bigger issues.
    Technological development is great, but what good is all the tech and brain trust in the world, if your product is sub-par (even an amazingly consistent sub-par) and bean counters have more pull than the brewers?

    This is in no way a contradiction to anything you mentioned, simply an "in addition to".
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    I'm a pretty recent beer forum contributor, and I don't follow the beer blogs. This gets me in trouble from time to time here because I don't know all of the narratives that have been floating around for a long time. Makes me look like I'm trolling sometimes, but I'm just a beer-talk newb.

    So for me where this stuff about industry purity gets fuzzy is with the explosion of all these local craft brewers. It's a great thing and all, but I get the sense that a lot of corporate money is involved in funding a lot of these projects. Not for the love of beer, specifically, but for profits connected to the world outside the beer industry. How much of it is about promoting, say, real estate? Tourism? I'm not talking about the motives of the brewers themselves, but the money has to come from somwhere. Again, I don't have a problem with that either, other than I get a kind of "gold rush/fever" vibe about the industry over the last 10 years or so. But I guess that's just capitalism...at both its best and worst.
    Yeah...there's certainly a romanticism attached to the idea of a local brewer struggling against the Man, and where the big boys are engaging in "astro-turf" craft-brewing -- I'm talking about you, Shock Top -- there is good reason for righteous indignation. But, it is a business, even if it's a business you love.

    To me, it simply shows that the craft-brewing industry is like any other sector in our current version of capitalism. It's the mythos of "grow-or-die" -- McDonald's, Starbucks, and Starbucks all reached a certain point in their development when they felt (rightly or wrongly) that there was no choice but to expand. For some in craft brewing, it's worked reasonable well so far (i.e., New Belgium); for others, not so much (i.e., Pyramid).

    The question of "purity" boils down to their craft, rather than their size. Are they motivated to make good beer? Are they actually making good beer? And, importantly, are they trying to lift the standards of the craft brewing community as a whole?

    I'd argue that even "macro" craft-brewers like Sierra Nevada, DFH, Stone and Lagunitas are doing this. They are engaged with home-brewers; they advocate for the industry; they are involved in their local communities.

    (FWIW, here's another recent, not-necessarily-enlightening piece on "nanobrewing" in Slate: "Pint Sized
    How nanobreweries—fledgling operations in garages and backyard sheds—are revolutionizing the American beer industry
    ")

    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    I'm just talking here. Trying to get a feel for what people think. I don't want to get all worked up into an argument, so, please, cut me some slack.
    As long as you don't mention cancer or testosterone, you're already way ahead of the game. And a picture of a unicorn or lol cat every so often wouldn't hurt either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFryauff View Post
    This is in no way a contradiction to anything you mentioned, simply an "in addition to".
    Wait, wut? Reasonable discussion about beer? I though we stopped having those here.

    I agree that evaluating what I'll call in entirety the "corporate conscience" as a whole is a much better ruberic (sp?).
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    I guess the problem for me has become the beer selling/marketing has become a commodification of what we generally consider pure. So while I agree with what many of you are saying must be considered when looking at a brewery's business practices, I start feeling like I'm being had when I see the sales pitch of little-guy purity on glossy posters in the local Chamber of Commerce.

    So for an example--as pertains more to the general conversation in the thread than my point above--I was with a friend at the beer store a few months back. We were deciding which beers to get. I asked if he'd tried any of the Firestone beers. He said he wouldn't drink it because of the way Firestone tires did its business, and that the brewery was founded by the spawn of wealth and naked vulture capitalism. Plus, the Firestone beer dude was on tv's "The Bachelor". Pretty compelling argument, at least the starring in "The Bachelor" part. Made me consider giving up Velvet Merlin, unless it's on sale.
    Last edited by Slow Danger; 12-13-2012 at 04:32 PM.

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    I did not know that Firestone Walker Brewery had anything to do with Firestone Tires, but as far as I am concerned their beer speaks for itself, The anniversary beers and Parabola are a testament to that.
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    I don't like beer, I love it. Whatever results in more beer knowledge, diversity, and culture has my support. Things get fuzzy on what that actually is though. Knew quite a bit in this article, not all of it, but most, and points out the fact that its never cut and dry.
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    Don't mean to call your buddy out, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    I guess the problem for me has become the beer selling/marketing has become a commodification of what we generally consider pure. So while I agree with what many of you are saying must be considered when looking at a brewery's business practices, I start feeling like I'm being had when I see the sales pitch of little-guy purity on glossy posters in the local Chamber of Commerce.
    I have to disagree with you there -- it's been that way in beer and in every consumer product since the dawn of time. False appeals to "authenticity" are par for the course in marketing, and something consumers should simply assume.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    So for an example--as pertains more to the general conversation in the thread than my point above--I was with a friend at the beer store a few months back. We were deciding which beers to get. I asked if he'd tried any of the Firestone beers. He said he wouldn't drink it because of the way Firestone tires did its business, and that the brewery was founded by the spawn of wealth and naked vulture capitalism. Plus, the Firestone beer dude was on tv's "The Bachelor". Pretty compelling argument, at least the starring in "The Bachelor" part. Made me consider giving up Velvet Merlin, unless it's on sale.
    Hmmm...I'll give you "The Bachelor" but your buddy's attitude strikes as being just a touch hypocritical. I mean, don't get me wrong...I'm way, way outside the 1% and as cynical about corporate America as the next socialist; but I'm not following the logic here.

    Your buddy's at a "beer store" about to throw down about as much as the average Mozambican makes in a week (just over $20, btw), and he's worried about the questionable ethics of capitalism? Hate to tell him, but he's soaking in it -- "it" being the first-world economy of America in the early 21st century. And that goes for the rest of us as well.

    Can we still all make a difference choosing local product when possible? Sure. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that it will solve all of the ills of capitalism.

    Oh sh|t...that's probably going to touch off another tl1 rant of some sort...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeePhroh View Post
    I have to disagree with you there -- it's been that way in beer and in every consumer product since the dawn of time. False appeals to "authenticity" are par for the course in marketing, and something consumers should simply assume.
    No, I hear you, GeePhroh. I think I'm agreeing with you that we are all way too late to be getting too extreme in our high-mindedness. High-mindedness is now a marketing schtick. So I have to judge the beer. At least so long as the company is not exploiting children or something totally crass.

    I think the point I am making is that the term "crafty", as applied to the original article link, may not be limited to the Macros anymore, at least in the beer purist/romantical sort of way. Again, this is just from that perspective, because I'm a romantic at heart. Let each brewery be judged by its own merits.

    In defense of my buddy, I think he was referring more to Firestone's history of exploitation in the tire business. He wasn't specifically making a 1% argument. Kind of like people don't like to buy Coors products because Coors contributes money to controversial political causes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post

    In defense of my buddy, I think he was referring more to Firestone's history of exploitation in the tire business. He wasn't specifically making a 1% argument. Kind of like people don't like to buy Coors products because Coors contributes money to controversial political causes.
    I don't buy colors because I can get water out of my tap for free.......
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    Whatever gets people to broaden their horizons/tastes/palates is fine by me. I'd rather it be something local and small but if it's "faux" craft, so be it.

    The vast majority of beer nerds started out drinking something closer to Shock Top than Cantillon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I don't buy colors because I can get water out of my tap for free.......
    I have no idea what this means? I'm not very hip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    I have no idea what this means? I'm not very hip.
    I think he meant "coors" not "colors".

    Either that or he is not a fan of the 1988 movie "Colors" starring Robert Duvall and Sean Penn as L.A.P.D. officers trying to keep gang violence under control in the streets of East Los.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    Plus, the Firestone beer dude was on tv's "The Bachelor". Pretty compelling argument, at least the starring in "The Bachelor" part. Made me consider giving up Velvet Merlin, unless it's on sale.
    So my comment above got me thinking, trying to remember my friend's exact beef with Firestone. Turns out the beer-maiking Firestone was not on The Bachelor, but his brother was. I have no idea if the Bachelor brother works for the brewery. Now I can drink Velvet Merlin without guilt.

    My friend, however, had a problem with Firestone because the rubber company actually did exploit child labor in Liberia. Not to mention a 50 year history of trying to cover-up tire defects that were killing innocent drivers. Plus for you public transportation dudes the Firestone family bought up public transit around the country and had it dismantled so they could sell more tires. The brewery got started on the family winery that was bought by the man responsible for some of this stuff. Should the son suffer for the sins of the father. No. But I have no problem with my friend begrudging the name enough not to want to drink IPA with the family name on it.
    Last edited by Slow Danger; 12-15-2012 at 12:02 AM.

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    I find the whole "us vs them" thing preachy and tiresome. Especially when the BA changes the definition of "us" when they see fit to keep the larger, more successful craft breweries in their group.

    Also I find it a bit hypocritical to promote taste/flavor as the most important factor, as they have done in videos/articles in the recent past, but now are implying that well, even though you may really enjoy Kona or Goose Island beers, you probably shouldn't drink them anymore because some "big company" in St Louis now owns them.

    I'll drink what tastes good to me regardless of if it's a "crafty" or "Brewers Association defined as craft" beer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeePhroh View Post
    Can we still all make a difference choosing local product when possible? Sure. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that it will solve all of the ills of capitalism.

    Oh sh|t...that's probably going to touch off another tl1 rant of some sort...
    Not yet. To me the only issue is the quality of the beer. If a large conglomerate buys your favorite touchy-feely "cool and local" brewery then uses the revered name to place some mediocre quality stuff on the market brewed on a massive scale with cheaper ingredients to drive profits that's an issue. But... plenty of great breweries like Bell's, Stone, New Belgium and others have grown quite large w/o sacrificing quality. Given that I only drink one a day on average at the most, I am probably not one of their target consumers anyway.

    The real question is this: what do the future economics of the brewing industry look like when people are drinking less and less because of the very valid health concerns about alcohol consumption. That's not really on anyone's radar yet as far as I can tell. Would you still drink your favorite beers if they were low or no alcohol beers? Let's not even get into the economics of beer brewing if pot legalization continues to moves forward, mmmkay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    The real question is this: what do the future economics of the brewing industry look like when people are drinking less and less because of the very valid health concerns about alcohol consumption. That's not really on anyone's radar yet as far as I can tell. Would you still drink your favorite beers if they were low or no alcohol beers? Let's not even get into the economics of beer brewing if pot legalization continues to moves forward, mmmkay.
    please stop, please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    please stop, please.
    Please stop bothering me. I said NOTHING offensive, rude etc. etc. Find someone else to continually hector.

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    ^^Hahahaha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    please stop, please.
    Also, this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Please stop bothering me. I said NOTHING offensive, rude etc. etc. Find someone else to continually hector.
    It's the boy who cried wolf syndrome. You keep saying the same thing over and over again and eventually, whether it's valid or not, people lose interest. So yeah, it's not offensive, it's just annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    The real question is this: what do the future economics of the brewing industry look like when people are drinking less and less because of the very valid health concerns about alcohol consumption.
    I knew you could make the connection!

    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    That's not really on anyone's radar yet as far as I can tell.
    No, it's right there on your radar, tl1:



    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Let's not even get into the economics of beer brewing if pot legalization continues to moves forward, mmmkay.
    Too late. We're already living it in Seattle.


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    Quote Originally Posted by GeePhroh View Post
    I knew you could make the connection!



    No, it's right there on your radar, tl1:





    Too late. We're already living it in Seattle.

    That's awesome thanks. I kind of miss the cats riding unicorns but I couldn't find any good ones so here's Obama riding his magic unicorn after he's had a few of his home brews with his homeboys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    It's the boy who cried wolf syndrome. You keep saying the same thing over and over again and eventually, whether it's valid or not, people lose interest. So yeah, it's not offensive, it's just annoying.
    Actually that's a poor comparison, not that it matters to you, because the boy that cried wolf was just joking all the time not relaying factual information, when the real wolf came no one listened and it ate him. I have been telling you about a real wolf all along: alcohol caused cancer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    The real question is this: what do the future economics of the brewing industry look like when people are drinking less and less because of the very valid health concerns about alcohol consumption.

    NO. STOP. YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE.

    The Real question IS NOT ABOUT YOUR IDEA OF VALID HEALTH CONCERNS. You have now proven to everyone that you are just a troll who won't quit. This is now the second time I have reported you and at this point I truly hope your account gets banned. This time you have taken your garbage health concerns related to beer in an effort to steer this thread off topic and I wont stand for it.

    I highly encourage anyone who agrees with me to report his post as spam to the moderators so something is done about it. This Thread is NOT ABOUT HEALTH, it is about real Craft Breweries VS the Idea of Fake Craft Breweries, nothing else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    NO. STOP. YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE.

    The Real question IS NOT ABOUT YOUR IDEA OF VALID HEALTH CONCERNS. You have now proven to everyone that you are just a troll who won't quit. This is now the second time I have reported you and at this point I truly hope your account gets banned. This time you have taken your garbage health concerns related to beer in an effort to steer this thread off topic and I wont stand for it.

    I highly encourage anyone who agrees with me to report his post as spam to the moderators so something is done about it. This Thread is NOT ABOUT HEALTH, it is about real Craft Breweries VS the Idea of Fake Craft Breweries, nothing else.
    What I've actually proven that I'm a long standing forum member (March 1997) that will not be bullied by the likes of boorish forum members like you.

    The discussion was of capitalism and economics that I replied to so put that in your beer pipe and smoke it. You're like a poster boy for the cause of phoney trumped up outrage.

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    The discussion was about craft v faux craft. As an aside the economy and capitalism came in. Being tangentially related as far as whom you choose to support. You used that as a very^100000 weak segue into another trumped up health preaching soap box. We're ****ing sick of it dude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    What I've actually proven that I'm a long standing forum member (March 1997) that will not be bullied by the likes of boorish forum members like you.

    The discussion was of capitalism and economics that I replied to so put that in your beer pipe and smoke it. You're like a poster boy for the cause of phoney trumped up outrage.
    you really are banging on the same drum rather loudly....it can get old, boorish and tiresome.

    FYI.
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    boorish...

    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    you really are banging on the same drum rather loudly....it can get old, boorish and tiresome.
    Bashing CHUM never gets old, boorish, or tiresome.

    -j

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Please stop bothering me. I said NOTHING offensive, rude etc. etc. Find someone else to continually hector.
    HAHA, if you remember champ i was the guy who was probably one of the more supportive people of your posts long ago before your epic-ranting-annoyances. Times have changed sir, and you now are a nuisance.

    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    What I've actually proven that I'm a long standing forum member (March 1997) that will not be bullied by the likes of boorish forum members like you.

    The discussion was of capitalism and economics that I replied to so put that in your beer pipe and smoke it. You're like a poster boy for the cause of phoney trumped up outrage.
    You are a long time member, yea, but you are a recent annoyance. Seriously i was totally cool with your contributions to the threads directly relating to health/cancer/testosterone etc... But now you are showing up in threads simply talking about beer stoke and turning them into your anti-beer crap. At a minimum can you please keep your health stuff in the ones that are about that topic! Now you are truly trolling.
    Last edited by Guerdonian; 12-14-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Not yet. To me the only issue is the quality of the beer. If a large conglomerate buys your favorite touchy-feely "cool and local" brewery then uses the revered name to place some mediocre quality stuff on the market brewed on a massive scale with cheaper ingredients to drive profits that's an issue. But... plenty of great breweries like Bell's, Stone, New Belgium and others have grown quite large w/o sacrificing quality. Given that I only drink one a day on average at the most, I am probably not one of their target consumers anyway.

    The real question is this: what do the future economics of the brewing industry look like when people are drinking less and less because of the very valid health concerns about alcohol consumption. That's not really on anyone's radar yet as far as I can tell. Would you still drink your favorite beers if they were low or no alcohol beers? Let's not even get into the economics of beer brewing if pot legalization continues to moves forward, mmmkay.
    I predict that the only way alcohol consumption will go down is because marijuana is legalized nationally. Seriously, you're fooling yourself.

    I only drink cheap/low alcohol beers as a boilermaker.

  35. #35
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    .....so beer is pretty cool, amiright?

    seriously, pretty good response from Schells about their exclusion from the BA "definition of craft brewery"...which got me thinking, New Glarus should fall outside of their definition then too. Spotted Cow, the flagship is brewed with adjuncts (as is Totally Naked). I suppose the BA would argue it's to "enhance" flavor but whatever.

    Schell's response:
    August Schell’s Jace Marti on Craft Beer

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Not yet. To me the only issue is the quality of the beer. If a large conglomerate buys your favorite touchy-feely "cool and local" brewery then uses the revered name to place some mediocre quality stuff on the market brewed on a massive scale with cheaper ingredients to drive profits that's an issue. But... plenty of great breweries like Bell's, Stone, New Belgium and others have grown quite large w/o sacrificing quality. Given that I only drink one a day on average at the most, I am probably not one of their target consumers anyway.

    The real question is this: what do the future economics of the brewing industry look like when people are drinking less and less because of the very valid health concerns about alcohol consumption. That's not really on anyone's radar yet as far as I can tell. Would you still drink your favorite beers if they were low or no alcohol beers? Let's not even get into the economics of beer brewing if pot legalization continues to moves forward, mmmkay.
    I doubt it.....the big craft beer states are also big pot states....CO, CA, WA, OR.

  37. #37
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    Good beer and good weed go remarkably well together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    Good beer and good weed go remarkably well together.
    and sometimes taste almost exactly the same
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    and sometimes taste almost exactly the same
    Agree, the tincture I got recently hardly changes the flavor of my beer but I do drink the beer much slooower and don't drink as many.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    you really are banging on the same drum rather loudly....it can get old, boorish and tiresome.

    FYI.
    I don't remember banging that particular drum very much and certainly not loudly. I will leave the beer forum alone though. Very few of these folks have a good sense of humor. Most have more like a Larry the Cable Guy sense of humor while I'm more of a Lewis Black man myself.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    I don't remember banging that particular drum very much and certainly not loudly. I will leave the beer forum alone though. Very few of these folks have a good sense of humor. Most have more like a Larry the Cable Guy sense of humor while I'm more of a Lewis Black man myself.
    We do have a good sense of humor, but when the same guy says the same joke over and over and over again, including interupting the subject, or bringing it back to the joke, then its anoying:

    Hey Tim hows it going
    Great, did you hear the joke about the bear...
    Yea you told me last week
    Oh, you sure? well here it is again. so this bear is in the woods
    Hey guys hows it going
    Oh good, i was about to tell Bill this great joke..
    I have heard it..
    Yea but its worth hearing again...
    Is it the one about the bear?
    Maybe, let me tell you again, so there is this bear in the woods
    Heard it, like 20 times
    Hey guys, was able to get the night off, you hear about the big game last night?
    No, but i did hear this great joke
    Dang it! Tim, I thought i told you to take it easy on that joke man, you have been telling it to everyone for the past month
    Why are you here anyways, i thought you hated the people in this bar
    Yea man, your always saying how much everyone here hates your jokes, why do you keep coming back
    I have been coming to this bar for years, people just need to change their sense of humor
    Or you need to get a new joke
    Why? that joke is awesome
    It was funny the first time man, let it go
    BAR= YEA SHUT UP
    nah man, you guys need to chill out, Im freeking funny
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  42. #42
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    TL1, I know you've been told this. I know you're just trying to be a boor. But this thread has nothing to do with beer and health. Nothing. As you well know. If you wan't to talk about the topic at hand, have at it, but please don't bring up beer and health in any thread other than threads regarding beer and health.

    Now, that I've tried to reason with you, I know you'll ignore. But remember, there are members in the beer forum who have nothing to do with your fights regarding beer and health, nor are they members you have beefs with.

    We all get it, you want revenge. Now what?

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHF View Post
    .....so beer is pretty cool, amiright?

    seriously, pretty good response from Schells about their exclusion from the BA "definition of craft brewery"...which got me thinking, New Glarus should fall outside of their definition then too. Spotted Cow, the flagship is brewed with adjuncts (as is Totally Naked). I suppose the BA would argue it's to "enhance" flavor but whatever.

    Schell's response:
    August Schell’s Jace Marti on Craft Beer
    I think you misunderstood BA's definition of craft. Breweries can still use adjuncts and still be craft. It's just that they can't use adjuncts to make most of their beer lighter. Here's the definition (read the "Traditional" part):

    Craft Brewer Defined

    Craft Beer Definition - An American craft brewer is small, independent and traditional.

    Small: Annual production of 6 million barrels of beer or less. Beer production is attributed to a brewer according to the rules of alternating proprietorships. Flavored malt beverages are not considered beer for purposes of this definition.

    Independent: Less than 25% of the craft brewery is owned or controlled (or equivalent economic interest) by an alcoholic beverage industry member who is not themselves a craft brewer.

    Traditional: A brewer who has either an all malt flagship (the beer which represents the greatest volume among that brewers brands) or has at least 50% of its volume in either all malt beers or in beers which use adjuncts to enhance rather than lighten flavor.

    The following are some concepts related to craft beer and craft brewers:

    - Craft brewers are small brewers.
    - The hallmark of craft beer and craft brewers is innovation. Craft brewers interpret historic styles with unique twists and develop new styles that have no precedent.
    - Craft beer is generally made with traditional ingredients like malted barley; interesting and sometimes non-traditional ingredients are often added for distinctiveness.
    - Craft brewers tend to be very involved in their communities through philanthropy, product donations, volunteerism, and sponsorship of events.
    - Craft brewers have distinctive, individualistic approaches to connecting with their customers.
    - Craft brewers maintain integrity by what they brew and their general independence, free from a substantial interest by a non-craft brewer.
    - The majority of Americans live within ten miles of a craft brewer.


    I agree with JFryauff's post above. I generally don't like supporting macro breweries because of their political influence and global economic business practices. Not only that, but their beer doesn't taste as good as true craft beer (usually.) This is obviously not a blanket statement - I'd rather drink Goose Island than boycott BMC-owned beers entirely, but that doesn't mean I have to be their advocate.

    What I'm interested in seeing is: what happens when craft brewers keep getting bigger and then no longer qualify under the guidelines above? Will the Brewer's Association keep raising the bar in terms of volume of production, or will companies like Sam Adams start to be categorized as macro?

  44. #44
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    No I got it. Making it "lighter" vs "enhancing flavor" is completely subjective and arbitrary. (ie why is lighter bad? not every beer has to be an assault on the palate ) Regardless, Dan Carey (New Glarus) has stated in interviews he uses corn to make beer more drinkable, lighter, "more-ish" as apparently they say in England, in their flagship - which is most of their volume, (as well as other beers ie Totally Naked is 10% corn)...which would exclude them from "craft" status per the BA...the little table they referenced said if any one category fails, then the brewery is out. (I agree with your point, its asinine to say NG is not craft, but it's their definition, and by that definition, NG is not craft - just like some of the others they exclude like Schells)

    I get the rest of your points and very much support craft brewers - and generally prefer them to "crafty" and macro stuff, but this whole approach is off-putting to me. A simple solution would be to license the "BA Defined Craft Breweries" to put a BA or some other "Craft Approved" logo on their packaging. Problem solved - they get their little "club certification" and the big guys can make tasty beer without it and the consumers can decide what is good or what has a good flavor/price mix. Frankly, I am excited the big guys are making an effort in the "more flavor" categories - more choice is good. Their production efficiencies and labs might lead to lower cost, delicious, fully carbonated, and uninfected beer. (hopefully) Which is what it is sounding more and more like the little guys are afraid of.

    I think we have seen what will happen when "craft breweries" get bigger, the BA changes the definition. It's happened in the past, no reason to think that will change.

    here's some other reading:
    Beervana: Craft Versus Crafty: The Brewers Association Misstep

    All that said, I enjoyed some Revolution Brewing Eugene Porter after my ride tonight and it was ****ing fantastic.

  45. #45
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    Alcohol doesn't cause cancer, Negative energy causes cancer. google it.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    Alcohol doesn't cause cancer, Negative energy causes cancer. google it.
    Did you post this in the wrong thread? Let's keep on topic here.

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    Wow! This story sure went viral fast. Everywhere I turn this article is popping up. Good job to the BA for spreading the word. Funny how some people get so up in arms about this though. I think that it's more of a truth in advertising issue. I do like the idea of the BA having an icon that they license to their members to help identify actual craft breweries.

    Personally, I'll just keep drinking what I brew myself.

  48. #48
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    I think another major hurdle for craft is the fact that the "big 2" own most or all of the distribution companies in the U.S. Not to mention the 3 tier system that is one of the bigger frustrations IMO about the beer "infrastructure".

    I am 99% sure the Sam Adams, NB and Sierra have probably had multiple offers to sell to ABInbev or MCoors and its simply due to the devotion to craft that they haven't. I could see the temptation of a brewery owner to become filthy rich by selling out to a super-power company that will expand the brand. That is also one of the catch 22's of the big guys buying small craft. Goose island is a prime example of a highly sought after micro brew that is now becoming redily available and distributed widely, as a result introducing more and more people to quality "crafty" beer. The more exposure to craft or crafty will result in the average joe consumer being more willing to try more exotic beer and helping the smaller breweries as a result. I think Blue Moon is a good example of the "wow this is a great beer, what kind is it? oh a wheat, hummm oh look at this wheat from New Belgium, maybe i will try that, oh man there is a brewery in my town that makes a wheat too, i will have to go and try it" or that is what i hope and imagine happening.

    I think we are on the precipice of a new era in american beer with in the next decade, but it is still yet to be determined how its going to shape up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post

    I think we are on the precipice of a new era in american beer with in the next decade, but it is still yet to be determined how its going to shape up.
    The future will be driven by regulation - if regs become more friendly to smaller entities (for many of the reasons you mentioned), then it could be a great time. Otherwise - it could get tough for the smaller brewers as $ unchecked takes over - again.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestatevirgin View Post
    My friend, however, had a problem with Firestone because the rubber company actually did exploit child labor in Liberia. Not to mention a 50 year history of trying to cover-up tire defects that were killing innocent drivers. Plus for you public transportation dudes the Firestone family bought up public transit around the country and had it dismantled so they could sell more tires. The brewery got started on the family winery that was bought by the man responsible for some of this stuff. Should the son suffer for the sins of the father. No. But I have no problem with my friend begrudging the name enough not to want to drink IPA with the family name on it.
    Can you confirm that? I was looking around and I can find zero connection between the firestone family that owned the tire company and the firestone family that owns the vineyards and brewery. In fact the brewery is only part owned by adam firestone.
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