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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    The JAMA article had no graph, it was just the same topic. Whether these lifestyle choices are or aren't "actual causes or not was the point. The JAMA article says they are. And I did post an article regarding a meta-analytical study about light drinking and cancer. Perhaps you chose to ignore it?
    I apologise, I missed the link you posted Light alcohol drinking and cancer: a meta-analysis.

    I just scanned through the article. In essence they conclude that light drinkers from East Asia have increased rates of oesophageal and mouth cancer. That actually makes sense, as many East Asians lack the ability to metabolize alcohol as the rest of the world does. Light drinking in those individuals is the equivalent to heavy drinking for the rest of us.

    One point of interest in the article is that they did find a tiny increase in rates of breast cancer. A meta-analysis has many limitations, and they did a good job of listing and admitting to the limitations of their analysis, such as not accounting for smoking, or drinking patterns. So that may warrant further investigation.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    The JAMA article had no graph, it was just the same topic. Whether these lifestyle choices are or aren't "actual causes or not was the point. The JAMA article says they are. And I did post an article regarding a meta-analytical study about light drinking and cancer. Perhaps you chose to ignore it?
    Almost forgot, about the JAMA abstract. They simply list alcohol as cause of death without mentioning quantity. We know chronic alcoholism and binge drinking kills.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    This study pegs the optimal median alcohol consumption for health at half a drink a day.

    Abstract

    Objective To estimate the impact of achieving alternative average population alcohol consumption levels on chronic disease mortality in England.

    Design A macro-simulation model was built to simultaneously estimate the number of deaths from coronary heart disease, stroke, hypertensive disease, diabetes, liver cirrhosis, epilepsy and five cancers that would be averted or delayed annually as a result of changes in alcohol consumption among English adults. Counterfactual scenarios assessed the impact on alcohol-related mortalities of changing (1) the median alcohol consumption of drinkers and (2) the percentage of non-drinkers.

    Data sources Risk relationships were drawn from published meta-analyses. Age- and sex-specific distributions of alcohol consumption (grams per day) for the English population in 2006 were drawn from the General Household Survey 2006, and age-, sex- and cause-specific mortality data for 2006 were provided by the Office for National Statistics.


    Results The optimum median consumption level for drinkers in the model was 5 g/day (about half a unit), which would avert or delay 4579 (2544 to 6590) deaths per year. Approximately equal numbers of deaths from cancers and liver disease would be delayed or averted (∼2800 for each), while there was a small increase in cardiovascular mortality. The model showed no benefit in terms of reduced mortality when the proportion of non-drinkers in the population was increased.

    Conclusions Current government recommendations for alcohol consumption are well above the level likely to minimise chronic disease. Public health targets should aim for a reduction in population alcohol consumption in order to reduce chronic disease mortality.



    ]
    She did a meta-analysis of meta-analyses. That's like taking a picture of a picture of a picture, all detail is lost. A single meta-analysis is bad enough in terms of data quality, but to then filter the filtered data again is not good science. No wonder her findings are not in line with results found in direct prospective studies.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    So now 1 or 2 is ok? I sense a subtle shift in position.

    Why quibble over one beer? I haven't shifted personally, I still drink one a day and 2-3 on special occasions but I do take anti-alcohol supplements before drinking. You're right though, it should have read "one unit" of alcohol per day for optimal health. That's the best recommendation we have now.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitabrew View Post
    She did a meta-analysis of meta-analyses. That's like taking a picture of a picture of a picture, all detail is lost. A single
    meta-analysis is bad enough in terms of data quality, but to then filter the filtered data again is not good science. No wonder her findings are not in line with results found in direct prospective studies.
    She? You mean the one women and three guys involved? If you quibble with the studies I have cited do what you prefer according to the evidence you like better then. Far be it from me to tell you what to think or do.
    What is the optimal level of population alcohol consumption for chronic disease prevention in England? Modelling the impact of changes in average consumption levels -- Nichols et al. 2 (3) -- BMJ Open


    1. Melanie Nichols1,2,
    2. Peter Scarborough2,
    3. Steven Allender1,2,
    4. Mike Rayner

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancient rascal View Post
    My post is not as much beer and cancer as it is ... beer and "pancreatic cancer" The doctor is an expert in the specialty of Pancreatic, etc. Not in all forms of cancer. We still don't know if this study/survey she did holds water. OK ... the beer and cancer title was a bit of a hook ... I admit it. The curiosity about it for me is genuine. -AR

    Alcohol isn't just related to pancreatic cancer, though your post may be. It's known to be strongly linked to oral, esophagus, and larynx cancer and less strongly linked to stomach, breast, colon and other cancers.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by debaucherous View Post
    Logic problems everywhere.
    It must be true if you posted a cartoon about it.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitabrew View Post
    I apologise, I missed the link you posted Light alcohol drinking and cancer: a meta-analysis.

    I just scanned through the article. In essence they conclude that light drinkers from East Asia have increased rates of oesophageal and mouth cancer. That actually makes sense, as many East Asians lack the ability to metabolize alcohol as the rest of the world does. Light drinking in those individuals is the equivalent to heavy drinking for the rest of us.

    One point of interest in the article is that they did find a tiny increase in rates of breast cancer. A meta-analysis has many limitations, and they did a good job of listing and admitting to the limitations of their analysis, such as not accounting for smoking, or drinking patterns. So that may warrant further investigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitabrew View Post
    Almost forgot, about the JAMA abstract. They simply list alcohol as cause of death without mentioning quantity. We know chronic alcoholism and binge drinking kills.
    Understood on both counts. One thing related and not studied here is the obsessive power of alcohol in many people which also may be genetic. Some people (we probably all know a few) can not ever have just one or two drinks. Once started they are going to have 10 or 15 drinks or pass out or drive into a utility pole, whatever comes first.

  9. #109
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    either I am drunk and getting double vision or tl1 is talking to himself
    I will drink to that

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerJoe View Post
    either I am drunk and getting double vision or tl1 is talking to himself
    I will drink to that

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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    She? You mean the one women and three guys involved? If you quibble with the studies I have cited do what you prefer according to the evidence you like better then. Far be it from me to tell you what to think or do.

    The main author is a female, so I wrote she. If you prefer I will edit the post to say they, but that's not important.

    Thousands & thousands of medical articles are written. Some are done well, some are done poorly, and many fall in between. I feel it is important to see how the information in the article was obtained. I am not trying to argue with you, really I am not. I am just pointing out that the way the information for this article was obtained is not considered an accurate way to find a answer to the question they pose. It is a relatively quick & easy way to rehash data that has already been rehashed by others. That's why I do not have confidence in their findings / recommendations. I admit though that for such a study to be done well would be very expensive, take many years, and be very difficult.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Understood on both counts. One thing related and not studied here is the obsessive power of alcohol in many people which also may be genetic. Some people (we probably all know a few) can not ever have just one or two drinks. Once started they are going to have 10 or 15 drinks or pass out or drive into a utility pole, whatever comes first.
    Yes, the tragic truth we can all agree on.

  13. #113
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    Here is an example of a well done study. It's not a meta-analysis, it a prospective cohort study. That means that rather than try to analyse data from multiple studies which were done for multiple reasons to achieve an answer, instead they started a new study and geared it specifically for the task in hand. They got over 89,000 subjects and followed them for over 5 years while accounting for specific health related variables that may influence the results. Does the study have limitations? Yes, all studies have their limitations, this study only included men physicians. Therefore the results would be irrelevant for a female coal miner.

    American College of Cardiology Foundation | Journal of the American College of Cardiology | Light-to-moderate alcohol consumption and mortality in the physicians

    If anyone is truly interested I recommend reading the full article, not just the abstract (abstracts usually leave out very important details), you can download a PDF to the full article from the above link.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitabrew View Post
    Here is an example of a well done study. It's not a meta-analysis, it a prospective cohort study. That means that rather than try to analyse data from multiple studies which were done for multiple reasons to achieve an answer, instead they started a new study and geared it specifically for the task in hand. They got over 89,000 subjects and followed them for over 5 years while accounting for specific health related variables that may influence the results. Does the study have limitations? Yes, all studies have their limitations, this study only included men physicians. Therefore the results would be irrelevant for a female coal miner.

    American College of Cardiology Foundation | Journal of the American College of Cardiology | Light-to-moderate alcohol consumption and mortality in the physicians

    If anyone is truly interested I recommend reading the full article, not just the abstract (abstracts usually leave out very important details), you can download a PDF to the full article from the above link.
    That's the best study I've seen yet, and far better-designed than any other posted in this thread. Thanks for sharing.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitabrew View Post
    Here is an example of a well done study. It's not a meta-analysis, it a prospective cohort study. That means that rather than try to analyse data from multiple studies which were done for multiple reasons to achieve an answer, instead they started a new study and geared it specifically for the task in hand. They got over 89,000 subjects and followed them for over 5 years while accounting for specific health related variables that may influence the results. Does the study have limitations? Yes, all studies have their limitations, this study only included men physicians. Therefore the results would be irrelevant for a female coal miner.

    American College of Cardiology Foundation | Journal of the American College of Cardiology | Light-to-moderate alcohol consumption and mortality in the physicians

    If anyone is truly interested I recommend reading the full article, not just the abstract (abstracts usually leave out very important details), you can download a PDF to the full article from the above link.
    That looks like a good study. It's been a long travel day and haven't read and digested it all yet but I did give it a quick once over. The lowest relative risk of mortality vs. alcohol consumption in the "Table 3RR of Total Mortality According to Level of Alcohol Consumption" chart appears to be at the one drink per week level. For CVD mortality 1 drink per day looks to be the low risk leader but risk climbs quickly from there. The folks at only 1-3 drinks a month need to pour one a week to loosen their neckties and clamped sphincters and also reduce their CVD risk too because they're at the greatest CVD risk!

    That cancer risk, the original thread topic...kinda, is way ahead for the 2+ a day drinkers and way down for the 1 drink a week crowd. I haven't read yet why they didn't differentiate anything beyond 2 drinks a day as there could be much risk difference between 2 and 12 drinks a day. I suppose it could be that licensed physicians are reluctant to report any heavy drinking to anyone.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beer and cancer ?-alcohol-risk.gif  

    Last edited by tl1; 10-23-2012 at 10:33 PM.

  16. #116
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    pssst, did anyone else stop reading a long time ago?
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    pssst, did anyone else stop reading a long time ago?
    Reading what?



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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    pssst, did anyone else stop reading a long time ago?
    Just don't stop riding eh? Here's my Ti guy Guerdonian. 26' Ridgeline SS ... Uphill cheater bike ! Nice job on all the research guy's! Beer and cancer ?-photo.jpg
    You became weak loafing around in that big girly gear! -Soares

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFryauff View Post
    Reading what?



    No one has stopped reading this thread because they want to know how much the risk really is, and who really wants to get cancer from a beer pastime/hobby?

  20. #120
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    I'm kind of curious why a 28% increase in "other" cancers is "nonsignificant" for those consuming ≥2 drinks per day.

    Compared with rarely/never drinkers, consumers of 1, 2 to 4 and 5 to 6 drinks per week and 1 drink per day had significant reductions in risk of death (multivariate relative risks [RRs] of 0.74, 0.77, 0.78 and 0.82, respectively) with no overall benefit or harm detected at the ≥2 drinks per day level (RR = 0.95; 95% confidence interval (CI), 0.79 to 1.14). The relationship with CVD mortality was inverse or L-shaped with apparent risk reductions even in the highest category of ≥2 drinks per day (RR = 0.76; 95% CI, 0.57 to 1.01). We found no clear harm or benefit for total or common site-specific cancers. For remaining other cancers, there was a nonsignificant 28% increased risk for those consuming ≥2 drinks per day.

    CONCLUSIONS These data support a U-shaped relation between alcohol and total mortality among light-to-moderate drinking men. The U-shaped curve may reflect an inverse association for CVD mortality, no association for common site-specific cancers and a possible positive association for less common cancers.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy View Post
    You know who will die of cancer? People who are too righteous.
    You mean like Mormons? Keep that in mind the next few weeks. Southern Baptists are also against any drinking of alcohol at all apparently.
    Southern Baptist Jerry Falwell died at 73 from cardiac arrest before he got cancer though.

  22. #122
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    That'L do it !

    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    You mean like Mormons? Keep that in mind the next few weeks. Southern Baptists are also against any drinking of alcohol at all apparently.
    Southern Baptist Jerry Falwell died at 73 from cardiac arrest before he got cancer though.
    Wow ... now it turns into the thread that never died ! I still remember the Hustler magazine parody "Jerry talks about his first time " And this new can of worms tl1 ... is "epic" Oh the humanity! Looks like Larry is still up to his old tricks eh? What is Mitt Romney Hiding? Reward…
    September 10th, 2012
    Larry Flynt and HUSTLER Magazine announce a cash offer of up to $1 Million for information about Mitt Romney’s unreleased tax returns and/or details of his offshore assets, bank accounts, and business partnerships. What is he hiding?

    See details in the ad published in The Washington Post, USA Today, Bermuda Sun and Handelszeitung:
    Last edited by ancient rascal; 10-24-2012 at 12:10 PM.
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancient rascal View Post
    Just don't stop riding eh? Here's my Ti guy Guerdonian. 26' Ridgeline SS ... Uphill cheater bike ! Nice job on all the research guy's!
    Purdy, i like me some titanium, especially when beer is involved
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    Purdy, i like me some titanium, especially when beer is involved
    Beer and Aluminum involvement is OK TOO ! 2nd Annual Dogmeat No Dab Challenge!!! It's on! - Page 8 - Mtbr Forums
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    Tl1 has an response for it all... and this thread is gaining speed.

    Grab a drink boys this has potential..
    Well dude, I do abide by knowing that I don't know everything. It turns out though that if you know you only know an estimated .0001% of any given subject that you usually know more than an estimated 99.9999% of the people that are positive they know everything about it.

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