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  1. #1
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    Wear Washer Installation Instructions

    Hey guys,

    You can download a PDF of the wear washer installation instructions here.

    Its pretty self-explanatory, but please email us if you have any questions.

    Remember that wear washers can only be fitted to frames with significant wear. They are a restorative rather than preventive measure.

    To help prevent premature frame wear, it is a good idea to regularly check pivot torque & keep your pivot axles lubricated with a good quality Lithium based grease.

    With the bike/frame in a work stand, remove the rear wheel, loosen the 3 pivot bolts & take out the rear shock bolt, so the shock is only attached to the frame via the front mount. Cycle the rear end of the frame up & down. There should be a small amount of resistance (especially if the bushings are new & need to bed in) but nothing significant. Tighten each of the pivot bolts whilst moving the rear end up & down. If you over tighten them, you will feel the resistance build up. The pivot bolts are not designed to pre-load the bushings, just to stop the axles falling out. As they require a low torque, it is a good idea to use blue Loctite on these bolts. Once you have all 3 pivot bolts secure with minimal resistance from the pivots you can re-attach your shock & go ride.

    If you ride in wet/muddy conditions, its a good idea to re-grease the pivot axles on a reasonably regular basis - it is a very simple process if you follow these instructions:

    All you need to do is to pop off the plastic plugs in the non drive side end of the pivots with a small flat head screwdriver. Then unscrew the small M3 set screws that you'll find at the base of the hex socket underneath where the plug was. These are just 2 stages of protection against getting grit into the pivots.

    Then use a needle nose grease gun to push grease down the grease port (which goes down the middle of the axle & then out to the center of the pivot between bushings). You should do this until you see old grease purging from the pivots around the bushing flanges. Loosening the pivots slightly will make it easier to purge old grease.

    You will find this forum thread helpful I'm sure.

    Once you learn how to do it, the total job of greasing the pivots only takes 5 mins. There is no need to grease the seat stay pivots.

    If horizontal play starts to develop in the rear end, the worst thing you can do is to over-tighten the pivot bolts. Horizontal play is a sign that the bushings are worn & need replacing. A lot of problems occur when people over-tighten the bolts which results in metal on metal contact & the frame wearing itself away.

    Vertical play is usually a result of worn pivot axles. Once the black anodizing starts to wear off, play can develop - it feels similar to a worn DU bush. Pivot axles should have a long lifespan if well maintained, however we have recently started to spec axles coated with an extremely hard wearing Keronite coating on all new Rune & Spitfire frames. These Keronite axles are available from your local Banshee dealer as a upgrade, however supply is very limited as initial demand was higher than anticipated. We are working hard to make more Keronite axles available as soon as possible.
    When fitting Keronite axles, please ensure that you use the supplied steel washers behind the pivot bolts. These are required due to a different tolerance on the axle thread when compared with the regular black ano axles.

    With a little care, you should get years of use out of your Rune or Spitfire.

    Please contact us if you have any further questions.

    Thanks for riding Banshee

    Jon

  2. #2
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    When can we get the new axles?
    It might get a little steep from here

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    The keronite axles should be provided free of charge to those experiencing pivot issues, not an upgrade. If your putting them in the newer versions of Rune and Spitfire then current owners with pivot issues should receive the same components to prevent future wear. I can't believe it has taken this long for the repair kit and it is sub-optimal! Same axles, same bushings, save for a plastic washer/spacer to fill in the aluminum frame wear.

  4. #4
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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiawatha-de View Post
    The keronite axles should be provided free of charge to those experiencing pivot issues, not an upgrade. If your putting them in the newer versions of Rune and Spitfire then current owners with pivot issues should receive the same components to prevent future wear. I can't believe it has taken this long for the repair kit and it is sub-optimal! Same axles, same bushings, save for a plastic washer/spacer to fill in the aluminum frame wear.
    axles are free
    Last edited by qbert2000; 01-09-2012 at 09:12 PM.

  5. #5
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    clarification

    If horizontal play starts to develop in the rear end, the worst thing you can do is to over-tighten the pivot bolts. Horizontal play is a sign that the bushings are worn & need replacing. Sorry, but this is not the case. My bike has horizontal play even with brand new bushings. Upon visual inspection it appears as if the rear triangle is misaligned as mentioned by a few others on this forum. What of this?

    These Keronite axles are available from your local Banshee dealer as a upgrade, however supply is very limited as initial demand was higher than anticipated. Seems by the sound of this statement the new axles have to be purchased. Which I do not understand. I, also have vertical play (in addition to horizontal play at the chainstay pivot) and would benefit from the new, tougher axles. I hope I'm not expected to pay for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hiawatha-de View Post
    Sorry, but this is not the case. My bike has horizontal play even with brand new bushings. Upon visual inspection it appears as if the rear triangle is misaligned as mentioned by a few others on this forum. What of this?
    I am sorry to hear that you are having issues with your bike. Please be assured that we will do what we can to help you resolve these issues as quickly as possible.

    There would not have been horizontal play in the rear triangle of your bike when it left the factory. The play has developed over time due to certain areas of the frame being worn away for some reason. Whether this wear has occurred due to frame misalignment as you say, or perhaps due to lack of maintenance & over tightening of pivot bolts is impossible to confirm without seeing the bike. As such we cannot give a blanket yes/no answer & these issues must be investigated on a case by case basis.

    I am not sure where you are located, but I would suggest contacting your local Banshee dealer & arranging an inspection of your bike. If you would like to email me at: jon@bansheebikes.com I would be more than happy to assist you.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiawatha-de View Post
    Seems by the sound of this statement the new axles have to be purchased. Which I do not understand. I, also have vertical play (in addition to horizontal play at the chainstay pivot) and would benefit from the new, tougher axles. I hope I'm not expected to pay for them.
    Again, this needs to be handled on a case by case basis. If customers are experiencing normal/acceptable wear rates with the anodized axles (as are the majority of our customers) then there is no reason for us to supply them with new axles free of charge.

    I understand that you are frustrated with this situation, so as I said please email me at the address above so that we can discuss this further. The same goes for anyone else experiencing issues. Please contact us via email & we will assist you. Unfortunately we don't always have time to check this forum as regularly as we would like to.

    Thanks again for riding Banshee.

    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by BansheeJon View Post
    I am sorry to hear that you are having issues with your bike. Please be assured that we will do what we can to help you resolve these issues as quickly as possible.

    There would not have been horizontal play in the rear triangle of your bike when it left the factory. The play has developed over time due to certain areas of the frame being worn away for some reason. Whether this wear has occurred due to frame misalignment as you say, or perhaps due to lack of maintenance & over tightening of pivot bolts is impossible to confirm without seeing the bike. As such we cannot give a blanket yes/no answer & these issues must be investigated on a case by case basis.

    I am not sure where you are located, but I would suggest contacting your local Banshee dealer & arranging an inspection of your bike. If you would like to email me at: jon@bansheebikes.com I would be more than happy to assist you.



    Again, this needs to be handled on a case by case basis. If customers are experiencing normal/acceptable wear rates with the anodized axles (as are the majority of our customers) then there is no reason for us to supply them with new axles free of charge.

    I understand that you are frustrated with this situation, so as I said please email me at the address above so that we can discuss this further. The same goes for anyone else experiencing issues. Please contact us via email & we will assist you. Unfortunately we don't always have time to check this forum as regularly as we would like to.

    Thanks again for riding Banshee.

    Jon
    after all this time your answers are unacceptable imho. normal wear of the axles?!? really? my turners had years of service before i changed the axles and even then they did not need it, i just did it because i felt they were due. both my rune and spitfire show wear on the frame and axles. that's two of three bikes i rode this past year. so it's not like it was exclusive to tons of miles on my only ride. i serviced them regularily, more than any bike i have owned previously and still have issues. it's not a "maintenance issue"

    as far as overtightening, how can you call it that when you have vague instructions like "With the bike/frame in a work stand, remove the rear wheel, loosen the 3 pivot bolts & take out the rear shock bolt, so the shock is only attached to the frame via the front mount. Cycle the rear end of the frame up & down. There should be a small amount of resistance (especially if the bushings are new & need to bed in) but nothing significant. Tighten each of the pivot bolt"s whilst moving the rear end up & down. If you over tighten them, you will feel the resistance build up."

    what is the torque value for " a small amount of resistance"? how can any end user be held accountable for "overtightening" when there is no definitive torque value to your maintenance instructions? hell, the link you provide for bushing service still shows 5-6nm of torque which has now been changed to the incredibly accurate "finger tight" value now

    i have 3 grand in frames sitting in my garage useless because of an imo mickey mouse bushing system. i've given up on the bikes ever being of any value again and went and purchased another frame from another company. it's not like i have no previous experience with bushings on a bike. i've had two previous frames where i never once had bushing issues of any kind let alone frame wear from the bushings eating the aluminum of the frame. my new frame has bushings too and i can say without a doubt that turner has the bushing design down. sealed, servicable with real torque values in their instructions that use a bolts proper torque value for its size along with locktite as a preventative for loosening instead of an answer for overly low torquing.

    it's great that you have finally come up with a band aid for the frame issues but to now claim you will charge for the axles on a case by case basis is a joke and an insult to your customers who trusted you to make a frame that would stand up to the rigors of its intended purpose, you know, riding in the dirt? people who have invested their hard earned money and in some cases have been without a ride for months and now have to hope they get taken care of. this situation has just gone from bad to worse imo

    and what is a "normal wear rate"? are people with wildcards having wear rates on their pivots and bearings? how many miles should one expect from one of your axles before they start to wear? how is it that the axles and frames are being "worn" from a bushing? in any application with bushings that i know of, the "bushing" is the sacrificial element in the equation. can you explain how it is acceptable by banshee's standards for the frames and axles to wear along with the bushing? in some instances in just a few months of riding. how long should one expect an axle to last then under "normal" wear conditions?

  8. #8
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    The point I was trying to make was that someone with a worn frame/axles after riding the bike into the ground for 2 years without any maintenance is very different to someone who is experiencing the same issues after 2 or 3 months of light use. As such, this must be handled on a case by case basis.

    As I mentioned, please email me at jon@bansheebikes.com & we will discuss this further.

    Thanks

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    Listen BansheeJon, I don't think you are going to make any friends on these forums. To little way WAY to late. Not to mention the chronology leading to your posts---first use less torque, then use yet less torque, then finger tight, then specific grease is the problem, then finally an admission of an issue and new axle kits, then not enough axle kits to go around with mismatched parts and no directions, then nothing but excuses as to why there aren't enough axle kits to go around. Now you come out and say it's user error again because of over tightening despite some 600+ posts to the contrary, and we are to supposed to email you directly despite Keith and Jay being aware of the issue for 6 months? Wow !!

    What do you say to people that understand the FACT that the pivot system itself is fundamentally flawed? It doesn't take a genius to look at how a turner bolts up versus the Banshee and understand the Banshee pivot is a design issue and will grind itself up despite any combination of bushings, washers, or axles. It completely baffles me as to why a company with such a solid reputation would continue to sell current model year bikes with such an obvious pivot issue.
    Last edited by WHALENARD; 01-10-2012 at 03:22 PM.

  10. #10
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    For you rocket surgeons that are belittling the guys at Banshee for how obviously horrible the bushing design is I have a single question.

    If the design is soooo obviously fundamentally flawed why did you buy it?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    For you rocket surgeons that are belittling the guys at Banshee for how obviously horrible the bushing design is I have a single question.

    If the design is soooo obviously fundamentally flawed why did you buy it?
    do you take apart all the bikes you but before you purchase them? at the time of purchase i hadn't heard that there were issues. once you take it apart and see it first hand and also see torque specs changing as issues crop up it's a little late to back out. plus see your frame disintegrating before your eyes despite maintaining it as directed and see others having the same issue the flaw becomes rather apparent

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    do you take apart all the bikes you but before you purchase them? at the time of purchase i hadn't heard that there were issues. once you take it apart and see it first hand and also see torque specs changing as issues crop up it's a little late to back out.
    Agreed. The achilles heel is simply how the pivot is "pinched" bolted together. Other then that they are awesome bikes. It's unfortunate banshee will not acknowledge this and many are beginning to fell fleeced.

    How would a rocket surgeon like yourself address the issue jirk?

  13. #13
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    I'd like to point out that not all people are having issues, I've got a solid 2 seasons of use on my Spitty (6 - 20 hours a week in summer, all off road), I've replaced the bushings at the end of each season, just replaced 1 axle (the smaller one on the lower pivot) and inspected the frame for irregular wear and so far all is good. Before that I had 2 years on a Pyre Mk 2 with the same bushing systems, totally problem free. I'm in no way implying that there aren't issues, a friend of mine has been having them with his Spitfire this past summer, but as Jay has recently said, they aren't entirely sure why some frames are having issues and some aren't.

  14. #14
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    So what exactly are you premature-pivot-wear-experiencing owners hoping to get out of this thread?

    Are you trying to discourage Jon, Keith & Jay from posting here, and interacting with their customers? No benefit there- especially for those of us who haven't had any issues.

    Has anybody taken Jon up on his request to email for warranty details? Has anybody tried the wear washer installation? This should be easy... get an RA#, get the frame looked at by Banshee, get a warranty frame, crash replacement deal, pivot kit, credit towards a non-bushing frame, whatever. The options aren't up to me, but these are the avenues I'd be exploring off-line, as I have with other brands when their frames failed, as they do....

    I really hope you guys get hooked up and the outcome is positive, but I also feel you've well made your point- Personally I don't want to hear about your pivot issues (again) anymore than you want to hear (again) that my frame (or anybody elses) has been completely free of issues. More posts aren't going to solve anything -There's just a time to take things off-line...again that's how I've always dealt with potential warranty issues (having on both sides). personally I'd much rather hear that you & Banshee worked things out off-line, and the outcome was mutually acceptable- whatever it was. I don't believe the Banshee forum on MTBR is going to help your warranty processes in any way.
    Last edited by FM; 01-11-2012 at 12:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big JC View Post
    How would a rocket surgeon like yourself address the issue jirk?
    I'd first contact the dealer where I bought the bike, then I'd contact Banshee directly.

    Seems pretty damn simple to me. I wouldn't expect my problem to be fixed on some forum.

    FM nails it. I know people riding the frames that have no issues and I know people that have had issues. It's a case by case situation. If you clearly read Jon's post above they are dealing with it case by case, there is no one magic bullet fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    So what exactly are you premature-pivot-wear-experiencing owners hoping to get out of this thread?

    Are you trying to discourage Jon, Keith & Jay from posting here, and interacting with their customers? No benefit there- especially for those of us who haven't had any issues.

    Has anybody taken Jon up on his request to email for warranty details? Has anybody tried the wear washer installation? This should be easy... get an RA#, get the frame looked at by Banshee, get a warranty frame, crash replacement deal, pivot kit, credit towards a non-bushing frame, whatever. The options aren't up to me, but these are the avenues I'd be exploring off-line, as I have with other brands when their frames failed, as they do....

    I really hope you guys get hooked up and the outcome is positive, but I also feel you've well made your point- Personally I don't want to hear about your pivot issues (again) anymore than you want to hear (again) that my frame (or anybody elses) has been completely free of issues. More posts aren't going to solve anything -There's just a time to take things off-line...again that's how I've always dealt with potential warranty issues (having on both sides). personally I'd much rather hear that you & Banshee worked things out off-line, and the outcome was mutually acceptable- whatever it was. I don't believe the Banshee forum on MTBR is going to help your warranty processes in any way.

  16. #16
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    FM,

    I think you fail to recognize the real problem for some posters is that Banshee doesn't say directly the design is flawwed and keeps pushing a so-so solution for the time being. It's clear to me by my own frame the design & tollerances aren't up for the job and should no longer be sold if not changed. Harder coating on axles will only make the bushings wear faster, that's fine if you have customers who can and will replace these 2 times a season. Good luck finding those cause appart from the enthusiastic bunch on these forums allot of rider's let their shop repair their bike when it needs it, i.e when parts seize up/ stop functioning. Which for a frame is way to late ofcourse. You can't possibly expect anyone to have this much regular service required for the price these frame's go for, it's downright laughable.

    And appart from having to add diy spacer's on my frame which will problably mean it won't wear out anytime soon, i'm done with how Banshee is dealing with this issue in public. All sneaky hush-hush if you got problems just email us, it would make their reputition stand out to just face facts, but that will hurt sales I bet. I know they can't just stop production and stop selling existing frame's and push either a new bushing design or bearing version on the market. However you have a fairly quick solution to re-design all the rockers and axles. Allthough it probably can't have a decent anti-overtighten feature you could make the rockers clamp the axles like you see on lot's of frame's clamping bearings. This would solve the biggest issue which is the side-pinch tightening. That takes far more time and effort but it's better than keep adding bandaids allong the way, and keep selling possible future nightmare frame's on the market. That will hurt sales alot more down the way, and with it a big chunk of Banshee's reputation. Which I think is an absolute shame cause the bike itself ride's bloody f******* good.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneeck View Post
    FM,

    I think you fail to recognize the real problem for some posters is that Banshee doesn't say directly the design is flawwed
    Hey Sneeck,
    I don't think we can agree that the design is inherently flawed. As Martin pointed out, a number of us (the large majority, according to Banshee) have not experienced pivot issues on frames that have been well used.

    Inherently flawed implies that the design will fail every time, regardless of how well it's executed. I don't think that's what's going on here. As you guys have pointed out, there's many other factors (tolerances, consistently repeatable maintenance process, torque specs) which have nothing to do with the design, but are probably the issue. Semantics, but it really does come down to "what's the root cause behind the issues?" I don't believe it's the design, but that's not to say there aren't other issues.

    By the way, I can see where for you guys that DO have pivot issues, it sucks to hear other people say "Mine are fine". Martin, myself and others- we're not trying to rub it in, or imply the issues are your fault. Just pointing out the design is probably not the issue, since the issue has not been consistent. Also consider... if the design is not the issue, updating the design might not fix the problem.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneeck View Post
    i'm done with how Banshee is dealing with this issue in public. All sneaky hush-hush if you got problems just email us,
    I don't get how this is sneaky or wrong.

    If you feel you have a problem contact them.

    If my car is broken I don't post on a forum and cross my fingers in hopes that someone contacts me. I go to the dealer where I bought the car. If I am unsatisfied with that service then I contact the manufacture directly.

    Why on earth do you want them to post the fine details of each and every particular frame case online? It's a waist of limited resources.

    Fairly safe to say Banshee knows there are problems. They are dealing with them on a case by case basis.

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    FM (and shirk),

    My biggest concern isn't the design or more maintenance work on my ride, but the way Banshee is handeling this towards the public. I won't call myself a diehard Banshee fanatic but I sure as hell praise the way they ride and in general the way Banshee is as a company. On my first frame, the Wildcard, there was some interference with the stock bend-in rockers on air shocks and they made a rapid run of flat rockers, free of charge if you wanted them. No questions asked, delivery was free, totally awesome, even came with bearings installed.

    Now I have a real feeling that if they continue to adress the situation the way they are, even if only 1% of riders need the bandaid-kit, it will cause allot of people to talk negative about Banshee. Allthough they can have some in this case, they don't deserve it cause the rest of their range of bikes if perfectly fine and ride's fantastic. Reputition is something you build up over the years but can be destroyed in litteraly months, if not weeks, specially with lots of negative threads on the internet. Yes there are little known issues NOW, but they sold and still selling old frame's which for example their owners don't ride often and have yet to develop problems before the world knows about it. I think allot more problematic frame's can be expected over next season, and all i'm trying to say is Banshee better be ready with a permanant fix to keep everyone happy in the long run. They deserve it but so far their efforts are like a drop on a hot plate thing IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    If the design is soooo obviously fundamentally flawed why did you buy it?
    Ummm, b/c I'm no mechanical engineer. When plunking down 1400 clams for a frame, I'd like to think I could rest assure that it'll work!

  21. #21
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    Consider this scenario. I have a Kuat NV rack- after a year of hard use, the main pivot got sloppy. I called Kuat and they ended up taking excellent care of me (great customer service!). The cool part, was they requested close-up pictures of the pivot surfaces & video showing the amount of play. The rep I spoke with was clear that this information would be passed on to the design & mfg team to consider changes which might prevent these issues.

    Now apply here. It could be that the pivot issues have nothing to do with design OR user (perhaps they were over-tightened at factory assembly, parts were out of tolerance, whatever)- how would Banshee know without inspecting the frames? In all fairness, they really need to see the issues to improve their product AND figure out what a fair solution is for the owner. MTBR is (and should be) irrelevant.

    That’s why all this should be resolved directly with Banshee off-line. More posts are just getting people worked up, (and damaging banshee’s rep, as Sneeck said) with no other result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneeck View Post
    FM (and shirk),

    My biggest concern isn't the design or more maintenance work on my ride, but the way Banshee is handeling this towards the public. I won't call myself a diehard Banshee fanatic but I sure as hell praise the way they ride and in general the way Banshee is as a company. On my first frame, the Wildcard, there was some interference with the stock bend-in rockers on air shocks and they made a rapid run of flat rockers, free of charge if you wanted them. No questions asked, delivery was free, totally awesome, even came with bearings installed.

    Now I have a real feeling that if they continue to adress the situation the way they are, even if only 1% of riders need the bandaid-kit, it will cause allot of people to talk negative about Banshee. Allthough they can have some in this case, they don't deserve it cause the rest of their range of bikes if perfectly fine and ride's fantastic. Reputition is something you build up over the years but can be destroyed in litteraly months, if not weeks, specially with lots of negative threads on the internet. Yes there are little known issues NOW, but they sold and still selling old frame's which for example their owners don't ride often and have yet to develop problems before the world knows about it. I think allot more problematic frame's can be expected over next season, and all i'm trying to say is Banshee better be ready with a permanant fix to keep everyone happy in the long run. They deserve it but so far their efforts are like a drop on a hot plate thing IMHO.
    Well said dude. What we really need is for more people to step forward with posts like this. These forums are public and are a great tool for many things including holding said company accountabable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Consider this scenario. I have a Kuat NV rack- after a year of hard use, the main pivot got sloppy. I called Kuat and they ended up taking excellent care of me (great customer service!). The cool part, was they requested close-up pictures of the pivot surfaces & video showing the amount of play. The rep I spoke with was clear that this information would be passed on to the design & mfg team to consider changes which might prevent these issues.

    Now apply here. It could be that the pivot issues have nothing to do with design OR user (perhaps they were over-tightened at factory assembly, parts were out of tolerance, whatever)- how would Banshee know without inspecting the frames? In all fairness, they really need to see the issues to improve their product AND figure out what a fair solution is for the owner. MTBR is (and should be) irrelevant.

    That’s why all this should be resolved directly with Banshee off-line. More posts are just getting people worked up, (and damaging banshee’s rep, as Sneeck said) with no other result.
    just curious, how do you know how much contact anyone has had with banshee off the forums?

    as far as the forums themselves go, they are on a consumer review site related to mountain biking. they are a double edged sword as they should be. when a company does well, people post their experiences and it can help a company establish a positive rep. the flipside is, when you have a problem and people feel it hasn't been handled well it can have the opposite effect as it should because ultimately we are here as riders, not company reps.

    i want to hear how things go whether they are good or bad experiences as it helps people make sound decisions when they go to spend their money. this isn't a site dedicated to kissing a companies azz

    so in the future anyone who has a positive experience should keep that off the forums as well? that seems to be along the lines of your criteria for posting here. i don't agrre with that philosophy. there needs to be the good and the bad and if the company is doing things right there won't be much bad. it's not just one guy posting venom. there are more than a few who have posted issues and had problems all related to the pivots.

    whether it is a design failure or tolerances or lack of seals or whatever, banshee switching to bearings says a lot about their confidence in the current design and their ability to control those variables going forward. obviously they aren't that happy with it or they wouldn't be changing would they?
    Last edited by qbert2000; 01-11-2012 at 06:54 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    I'd first contact the dealer where I bought the bike, then I'd contact Banshee directly.

    Seems pretty damn simple to me. .
    That's genius, how did you ever come up with such an idea? What do you say to the guy that has already warrantied their frame 2-3 times? Some guys have warrantied both a Spitfire and Rune multiple times. Can you imagine what a colossal pita is to strip ship & rebuilt a bike twice a season only to ****** the pivots again? Some guys aren't capable of stripping & rebuilding and pay their bike shop to do it plus the cost of shipping. At the cost of these frames that is unacceptable hence tightening the screws in a public forum which seems like a no brainer to me.
    Last edited by WHALENARD; 01-11-2012 at 07:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Hey Sneeck,
    I don't think we can agree that the design is inherently flawed. As Martin pointed out, a number of us (the large majority, according to Banshee) have not experienced pivot issues on frames that have been well used.

    Inherently flawed implies that the design will fail every time, regardless of how well it's executed. I don't think that's what's going on here. As you guys have pointed out, there's many other factors (tolerances, consistently repeatable maintenance process, torque specs) which have nothing to do with the design, but are probably the issue. Semantics, but it really does come down to "what's the root cause behind the issues?" I don't believe it's the design, but that's not to say there aren't other issues.

    By the way, I can see where for you guys that DO have pivot issues, it sucks to hear other people say "Mine are fine". Martin, myself and others- we're not trying to rub it in, or imply the issues are your fault. Just pointing out the design is probably not the issue, since the issue has not been consistent. Also consider... if the design is not the issue, updating the design might not fix the problem.
    While there are a lot of factors there are most CERTAINLY several issues with the design of the pivot. First the more you tighten the bolt the tighter the pivot, this is stupid. The axle itself essentially floats as it is not directly bolted to the rocker , chainstay , or seatstay which allows side loading, this is also stupid. One needs no more proof than the pics of the wear patterns on the "rune bushings again" thread to see evidence of side loading. The side loading also breaks the pivot bolts loose which is undoubtedly why people over tighten the pivot. The advantages of bolting the axle tight to the rockers are obvious; it would make for a stiffer more rigid pivot by a wide margin, it would substantially reduce side loading, it would be impossible to overtighten. Physically none of the former points are debatable. This seems like a simple and easy change to me. What I can't understand is why banshee not only didn't do this from day one but won't do it now.

    Regarding who says what on what forum who are you to dictate that FM? If you don't want to read it don't. These forums are a public venue and serve many purposes other than your own or what's in banshee's best interest. It is my right as a consumer if not my duty to hold banshee accountable for their product. I encourage everybody with pivot problems to do just that.

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    While there are a lot of factors there are most CERTAINLY several issues with the design of the pivot. First the more you tighten the bolt the tighter the pivot, this is stupid. The axle itself essentially floats as it is not directly bolted to the rocker , chainstay , or seatstay which allows side loading, this is also stupid. One needs no more proof than the pics of the wear patterns on the "rune bushings again" thread to see evidence of side loading. The side loading also breaks the pivot bolts loose which is undoubtedly why people over tighten the pivot. The advantages of bolting the axle tight to the rockers are obvious; it would make for a stiffer more rigid pivot by a wide margin, it would substantially reduce side loading, it would be impossible to overtighten. Physically none of the former points are debatable. This seems like a simple and easy change to me. What I can't understand is why banshee not only didn't do this from day one but won't do it now.

    Regarding who says what on what forum who are you to dictate that FM? If you don't want to read it don't. These forums are a public venue and serve many purposes other than your own or what's in banshee's best interest. It is my right as a consumer if not my duty to hold banshee accountable for their product. I encourage everybody with pivot problems to do just that.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    just curious, how do you know how much contact anyone has had with banshee off the forums?
    I don't- that's why I asked....

    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Has anybody taken Jon up on his request to email for warranty details?
    Anyways you guys have made your agenda clear, and I'm not here to challenge your "duty" or dictate what people do or don't post....so I'm done here.


    Big JC- do ponder this section cut of a Turner pivot. Flawed design by your definition?


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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    I don't- that's why I asked....



    Anyways you guys have made your agenda clear, and I'm not here to challenge your "duty" or dictate what people do or don't post....so I'm done here.


    Big JC- do ponder this section cut of a Turner pivot. Flawed design by your definition?

    what agenda? i have recommended banshees on the forums when people ask about a good bike many times. i no longer feel comfortable doing that with their bushing bikes. i just can't with how many problems there have been and the fact it has taken as long as it has for anything to get done.

    you ask about the washer kits. have you read the forums? there's been multiple delays on the kit, whether they were justified or not people haven't received a complete kit with the wear washers yet as the first axles went out without the washers. so it's pretty hard to hear feedv=back on them plus since morth america is in the middle of winter a large percentage of the continent is well past prime riding season so tests in some locals will be pretty limited. hence the frustration of having a bike or two down during prime riding season and then kits show up in the winter

    the turner design is better and you know it. you pm'd me about trying to use some turner parts before. don't act naive about the differences in the design. you know what they are having owned turners in the past. you know the turner axle is pinched between the frame and keeps the bushing from eating into the frame. you also know it has quad seals to keep mud and grit out of the grease and possibly adding to the wear issues. other than an occasional greasing, the turner bushing system needs nothing maintenance wise. it is not sensitive to being overtorqued as it's recommended torque value is very close to the maximum recommended torque value for the size bolts used at 17ft/lbs for the main pivot bolt.

    the m10 bolt on the banshee main pivot is now recommended to be finger tight, down from their original spec of 5nm (which is still very low for an m10 bolt). that is well less than the max recommended torque value of a low grade m10x1.5mm bolt which is around 15-22ft/lbs. you know the banshee bolts are relying on locktite to keep them tight.

    A properly tightened bolt is one that is stretched such that it acts like a very ridged spring pulling mating surfaces together . there's an interesting link on bolt torque explanation below

    so using locktite to keep a bolt from coming loose that is well below being properly stretched from it's optimal torque is less than ideal. it leads to loosening when the locktite fails and leads to overtightening to compensate for the problem which is noyt the end users fault as ou want your bike to stay together and not feel sloppy.

    Proper Bolt Torque - by Zero Fasteners


    US & Metric Bolt Torque by Grade

    my only agenda was getting some answers. i have had email contact with keith while discussing the prime. at that time i dropped out of buying a prime as i wasn't happy with his answers to me. bansheejon has made me an offer i am considering that i will keep private as it is between a customer and manufacturer. since you haven't had a frame or two down for mutiple months and have no idea what the frustration level is for the people who have, your continued flag waving and accusing people who have been bike-less of having an "agenda" really doesn't help at all

    i fail to see how people being pissed about this is not warranted. maybe you can enlighten me on that
    Last edited by qbert2000; 01-12-2012 at 07:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post


    Big JC- do ponder this section cut of a Turner pivot. Flawed design by your definition?

    No I do not, it is the best rendition of a bushing style pivot that I am aware of. The axle is bolted tight (17 foot pounds) to the "suspension arm" as your picture refers to it. This has several clear mechanical advantages over the banshee design. All of which I am confident you are well aware of. As far as I am concerned, if you want to be an unbiased contributor to the issue FM, enlighten me as to why banshee doesn't move to a similar design? The design itself is where all the frustration is gaining momentum as when people grasp the real cause of the pivot wear they realize no combination of axles, washers, etc. is going to fix it and they are left with a worthless $1600 dollar frame.

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    I am going to say very little (trade secrets!) here, because this is a public forum...but

    all the guys I sold Spittys and Runes to in the UK, are somewhat pissed at me...I don't even work for the same UK distrib. anymore (not for nearly a year) but still get messages on the forums berating my sales pitch to these guys

    I strongly recommended, and personally recommended these frames because banshee was a solid brand (with a rep. for overbuilt and durable frames)

    but many of my former banshee customers had to trade up (more £££) for different replacement frames from the other import brands we sold alongside Banshee, or took a gamble and got a new "warranty" frame, which they told me, was often more wonky than their original frame and quickly developed pivot problems

    the Banshee guys (Keith and Jay) are cool guys who I have ALOT of time for...but I could not recommend the brand to anyone, until they switch to ball bearings on all their frames, and remember I don't work for their distributor anymore so have nothing to lose or gain here...

    we had very few problems with the older ball-bearing frames like Wildcard and Scythe, just the odd QC issue like a cable guide in wrong place, a decal (graphic) on upside-down, or on my Wildcard a slightly-ovalised swingarm driveside bearing 'socket' on the front triangle

    which was remedied by bashing an old bearing in and out of the frame a dozen times until it shaved the excess material away, then some Loctite bearing seat compound was applied with a nice NMB bearing and I never looked at that pivot ever again! that frame was wicked burly



    here is Banshee design engineer Keith with my Wildcard and his prototype AMP at Woburn Sands, England, UK some years back



    I REALLY hope the Banshee guys find a way to keep everyone happy, because Keith and Jay are super hard workers, and its a great brand started way back "in the day" by Pip and friends in Vancouver, I met these guys in Vancouver before Keith got involved, and have owned too many of their frames over the years plus 2 Rampants using the bushings which I had no trouble with, but the Rampant is just a little short travel frame with limited pivot movement, not much to go wrong there!

    many brands go through troubles, its really all about how customers are looked after, and it seems Banshee are doing whatever they can (realistically) to assist existing customers despite the disconnect between the staff and their production in TW, and the new Prime and Legends with their ball bearings show that things are moving in the right direction for the brand, long term.

    I would not advise buying a new Banshee at the moment (apart from Prime and Legend MkII) but contact Banshee direct if you own a bushing frame and are having troubles, they will do whatever they can, and perhaps there is an opportunity for you to ride a Spitfire Mk2 and Rune Mk2 with ball bearings once available

    I am sure that Keith is so frustrated at these issues, every time I spoke with him, he was so involved with pushing the design and the engineering, and we spent hours talking about issues, he is definitely a true bike rider who really cares about his work and Banshee Bikes

    peace out

    Rob Cole
    London, England

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    Nice post.

    No one wants to see Banshee fail or anything. Not sure why some people argue in these threads. Simple thing is, we all bought these frames because we trusted that they were quality products. With the money and trust laid down and with a product that fails, its natural that some people will be pissed.

    My frame has damage to it, but it is still rideable. The pivots arent as worn out as some other pictures I have seen, but the entire bike frame is clearly not aligned. In my case, I have no choice to ride it or not. I can't hang the bike up and hope for a fix one day. I'm a college student and I put every last penny I have into this bike frame. If it fails, I'm flat out done riding for up to three years.

  32. #32
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    Banshee is still pretty awesome, i've had contact earlier about my own bushing problems and what could be done to fix things. I'm not sure what i'll do yet but the offers I got where enough for me to keep riding my current spitty till it breaks but it will be solved, safe to say that's all I care about.

    The reason for some people like me to argue more and more about these problems is basicly to vent some anger and frustration. Hell perhaps even force or point the company to do something better. I don't know if the option of re-designing the rockers have been worked out or not, but to me is seems like a good idea in the long run. Sending a load of axles, bushings and rockers to each who has problems is sure as hell allot more cost efficient than to crash-replace every frame, or loose customers bailing out and spread negative feedback. And this option can easely be converted on the current '12 bike's which haven't sold yet just to be safe. I would like a reaction from Keith if this is a valid solution or not. You could even do something with seals inbedded in the inside of the rocker pretty easily. But yes I know thats easier said than done.
    Amplify Your ®ide!

    Spitfire Amp Scythe

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by big JC View Post
    While there are a lot of factors there are most CERTAINLY several issues with the design of the pivot. First the more you tighten the bolt the tighter the pivot, this is stupid. The axle itself essentially floats as it is not directly bolted to the rocker , chainstay , or seatstay which allows side loading, this is also stupid. One needs no more proof than the pics of the wear patterns on the "rune bushings again" thread to see evidence of side loading. The side loading also breaks the pivot bolts loose which is undoubtedly why people over tighten the pivot. The advantages of bolting the axle tight to the rockers are obvious; it would make for a stiffer more rigid pivot by a wide margin, it would substantially reduce side loading, it would be impossible to overtighten. Physically none of the former points are debatable. This seems like a simple and easy change to me. What I can't understand is why banshee not only didn't do this from day one but won't do it now.
    I have to agree with this, especially as a mechanical engineer. There needs to be a way to properly tighten the pivot. Finger tight is never an acceptable torque spec. This problem goes back to the Pyre MK1 though. Even though that bike used needle bearings and thrust washers instead of bushings, the pivot axle design is basically the same and cannot be tightened much. I own a Turner as well (Highline, so it uses needle bearings instead of bushings but the pivot design is still the same as pictured above) and while I have had to replace one bearing and one small pivot shaft in 3 years, it generally is holding up very well with no wear to the frame or links. I'm sure the seals also help, especially since one of the Banshee guys recognized the wear problem as being from dirt getting into the pivot and grinding it away. So another improvement, besides adding seals, would be to hard anodize the suspension links as well so that the bushing flange has a harder surface to sit against which may also reduce wear.

    Quote Originally Posted by hampstead bandit View Post
    the Banshee guys (Keith and Jay) are cool guys who I have ALOT of time for...but I could not recommend the brand to anyone, until they switch to ball bearings on all their frames, and remember I don't work for their distributor anymore so have nothing to lose or gain here...

    many brands go through troubles, its really all about how customers are looked after, and it seems Banshee are doing whatever they can (realistically) to assist existing customers despite the disconnect between the staff and their production in TW, and the new Prime and Legends with their ball bearings show that things are moving in the right direction for the brand, long term.

    I am sure that Keith is so frustrated at these issues, every time I spoke with him, he was so involved with pushing the design and the engineering, and we spent hours talking about issues, he is definitely a true bike rider who really cares about his work and Banshee Bikes
    Thanks for the well thought out post. The guys at Banshee do seem to be hard working and very passionate about their brand. Myself (spitfire) and my girlfriend (pyre) have exchanged emails with them and they were always helpful.

    I will disagree that Banshee needs to switch to ball bearings in all their frames though, they just need to sort out the issues with the current bushing design. Turner has shown that bushings can work just fine if properly executed. There have been lots of ways to do this discussed in these forums alone. I don't think it even requires any major changes. But I would hope that a change is made before any 2012 frames are released for sale.

  34. #34
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    The PDF is no longer active for download.

    Can anyone upload or send me a current copy?
    Last edited by ride the biscuit; 05-10-2012 at 12:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ride the biscuit View Post
    The PDF is no longer active for download.

    Can anyone upload or send me a current copy?
    Check your PM's

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    Please email me at jon@bansheebikes.com & I'll send you the instruction sheet. I'll work on getting it hosted somewhere ASAP.

    Cheers!

  37. #37
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    my review the wear washers and new axle kits:

    background: after 2 yrs i just have a little wear on my ND side CS pivot and the axle in that pivot was fairly worn, causing about 1 or 2 mm of play

    WEAR WASHERS:

    performing the wear washer installation is a frustrating task. even though its a logical way to fix the problem, it just feels like a hail Mary. the crux of the chore is installing the pivot link back into the CS pivot without ruining the bond between the wear washer and frame. Several solid tries, I let the epoxy set longer than directed and couldnt get the link back in without moving the wear washer out of place. I did not, however, allow myself enough time to let sit for a full 24 hrs

    I got really impatient and since I had a big ride planned the next day, I decided to put the wear washer in without it being bonded to the frame. This was in itself very tricky and tedious, but I was successful, and it worked like a charm to eliminate any play in the pivot.

    Since it took me 2yrs to get 0.5mm of play im not worried about it as i could likely continue to do it that way for the life of the frame

    NEW KREONITE AXLES:

    I have a great impression of the new axles...time will tell but seems like good stuff. They took a few whacks of the rubber mallet to get into the frame but that was because of the tolerance with the frame itself not with the bushings.

    I used a little lithium based grease when I tightened them down on new bushings, and the play in my pivots was completely gone.

    Heres the kicker and the thing that I was pleasantly surprised with: there was little to no stiffness and the swingarm was more active than ever before, requiring no break in time. i think the key to this is taking the shock off and feeling the resistance in the swingarm as you tighten the bolts like the directions say. im not worried they'll come out while riding because as long as ive used blue loctite correctly (ie no grease on threads) that has never happened since ive had the bike

    in conclusion, as long as the frame wear does not significantly accelerate I should be good. im really happy that I should be able to get a very respectable useful life out of my Rune with awesome functioning pivots, but getting to that point required several hours of piss
    Last edited by ride the biscuit; 05-18-2012 at 11:35 PM.

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    Hi, im just wondering ... my rune axle is keronite or not (picture 1), the axle colors slightly different from the picture in F.M post, thought my rune is 2011.

    thx
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wear Washer Installation Instructions-screen-shot-2012-07-31-10.46.35-am.jpg  

    Wear Washer Installation Instructions-img_2163.jpg  


  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by oprut View Post
    Hi, im just wondering ... my rune axle is keronite or not (picture 1), the axle colors slightly different from the picture in F.M post, thought my rune is 2011.

    thx
    yeah, that looks like the keronite axle. the originals were black ano, plus you have the wear washers too

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