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  1. #1
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    Wear Washer Installation Instructions

    Hey guys,

    You can download a PDF of the wear washer installation instructions here.

    Its pretty self-explanatory, but please email us if you have any questions.

    Remember that wear washers can only be fitted to frames with significant wear. They are a restorative rather than preventive measure.

    To help prevent premature frame wear, it is a good idea to regularly check pivot torque & keep your pivot axles lubricated with a good quality Lithium based grease.

    With the bike/frame in a work stand, remove the rear wheel, loosen the 3 pivot bolts & take out the rear shock bolt, so the shock is only attached to the frame via the front mount. Cycle the rear end of the frame up & down. There should be a small amount of resistance (especially if the bushings are new & need to bed in) but nothing significant. Tighten each of the pivot bolts whilst moving the rear end up & down. If you over tighten them, you will feel the resistance build up. The pivot bolts are not designed to pre-load the bushings, just to stop the axles falling out. As they require a low torque, it is a good idea to use blue Loctite on these bolts. Once you have all 3 pivot bolts secure with minimal resistance from the pivots you can re-attach your shock & go ride.

    If you ride in wet/muddy conditions, its a good idea to re-grease the pivot axles on a reasonably regular basis - it is a very simple process if you follow these instructions:

    All you need to do is to pop off the plastic plugs in the non drive side end of the pivots with a small flat head screwdriver. Then unscrew the small M3 set screws that you'll find at the base of the hex socket underneath where the plug was. These are just 2 stages of protection against getting grit into the pivots.

    Then use a needle nose grease gun to push grease down the grease port (which goes down the middle of the axle & then out to the center of the pivot between bushings). You should do this until you see old grease purging from the pivots around the bushing flanges. Loosening the pivots slightly will make it easier to purge old grease.

    You will find this forum thread helpful I'm sure.

    Once you learn how to do it, the total job of greasing the pivots only takes 5 mins. There is no need to grease the seat stay pivots.

    If horizontal play starts to develop in the rear end, the worst thing you can do is to over-tighten the pivot bolts. Horizontal play is a sign that the bushings are worn & need replacing. A lot of problems occur when people over-tighten the bolts which results in metal on metal contact & the frame wearing itself away.

    Vertical play is usually a result of worn pivot axles. Once the black anodizing starts to wear off, play can develop - it feels similar to a worn DU bush. Pivot axles should have a long lifespan if well maintained, however we have recently started to spec axles coated with an extremely hard wearing Keronite coating on all new Rune & Spitfire frames. These Keronite axles are available from your local Banshee dealer as a upgrade, however supply is very limited as initial demand was higher than anticipated. We are working hard to make more Keronite axles available as soon as possible.
    When fitting Keronite axles, please ensure that you use the supplied steel washers behind the pivot bolts. These are required due to a different tolerance on the axle thread when compared with the regular black ano axles.

    With a little care, you should get years of use out of your Rune or Spitfire.

    Please contact us if you have any further questions.

    Thanks for riding Banshee

    Jon

  2. #2
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    When can we get the new axles?
    It might get a little steep from here

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    The keronite axles should be provided free of charge to those experiencing pivot issues, not an upgrade. If your putting them in the newer versions of Rune and Spitfire then current owners with pivot issues should receive the same components to prevent future wear. I can't believe it has taken this long for the repair kit and it is sub-optimal! Same axles, same bushings, save for a plastic washer/spacer to fill in the aluminum frame wear.

  4. #4
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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiawatha-de View Post
    The keronite axles should be provided free of charge to those experiencing pivot issues, not an upgrade. If your putting them in the newer versions of Rune and Spitfire then current owners with pivot issues should receive the same components to prevent future wear. I can't believe it has taken this long for the repair kit and it is sub-optimal! Same axles, same bushings, save for a plastic washer/spacer to fill in the aluminum frame wear.
    axles are free
    Last edited by qbert2000; 01-09-2012 at 08:12 PM.

  5. #5
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    clarification

    If horizontal play starts to develop in the rear end, the worst thing you can do is to over-tighten the pivot bolts. Horizontal play is a sign that the bushings are worn & need replacing. Sorry, but this is not the case. My bike has horizontal play even with brand new bushings. Upon visual inspection it appears as if the rear triangle is misaligned as mentioned by a few others on this forum. What of this?

    These Keronite axles are available from your local Banshee dealer as a upgrade, however supply is very limited as initial demand was higher than anticipated. Seems by the sound of this statement the new axles have to be purchased. Which I do not understand. I, also have vertical play (in addition to horizontal play at the chainstay pivot) and would benefit from the new, tougher axles. I hope I'm not expected to pay for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hiawatha-de View Post
    Sorry, but this is not the case. My bike has horizontal play even with brand new bushings. Upon visual inspection it appears as if the rear triangle is misaligned as mentioned by a few others on this forum. What of this?
    I am sorry to hear that you are having issues with your bike. Please be assured that we will do what we can to help you resolve these issues as quickly as possible.

    There would not have been horizontal play in the rear triangle of your bike when it left the factory. The play has developed over time due to certain areas of the frame being worn away for some reason. Whether this wear has occurred due to frame misalignment as you say, or perhaps due to lack of maintenance & over tightening of pivot bolts is impossible to confirm without seeing the bike. As such we cannot give a blanket yes/no answer & these issues must be investigated on a case by case basis.

    I am not sure where you are located, but I would suggest contacting your local Banshee dealer & arranging an inspection of your bike. If you would like to email me at: jon@bansheebikes.com I would be more than happy to assist you.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiawatha-de View Post
    Seems by the sound of this statement the new axles have to be purchased. Which I do not understand. I, also have vertical play (in addition to horizontal play at the chainstay pivot) and would benefit from the new, tougher axles. I hope I'm not expected to pay for them.
    Again, this needs to be handled on a case by case basis. If customers are experiencing normal/acceptable wear rates with the anodized axles (as are the majority of our customers) then there is no reason for us to supply them with new axles free of charge.

    I understand that you are frustrated with this situation, so as I said please email me at the address above so that we can discuss this further. The same goes for anyone else experiencing issues. Please contact us via email & we will assist you. Unfortunately we don't always have time to check this forum as regularly as we would like to.

    Thanks again for riding Banshee.

    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by BansheeJon View Post
    I am sorry to hear that you are having issues with your bike. Please be assured that we will do what we can to help you resolve these issues as quickly as possible.

    There would not have been horizontal play in the rear triangle of your bike when it left the factory. The play has developed over time due to certain areas of the frame being worn away for some reason. Whether this wear has occurred due to frame misalignment as you say, or perhaps due to lack of maintenance & over tightening of pivot bolts is impossible to confirm without seeing the bike. As such we cannot give a blanket yes/no answer & these issues must be investigated on a case by case basis.

    I am not sure where you are located, but I would suggest contacting your local Banshee dealer & arranging an inspection of your bike. If you would like to email me at: jon@bansheebikes.com I would be more than happy to assist you.



    Again, this needs to be handled on a case by case basis. If customers are experiencing normal/acceptable wear rates with the anodized axles (as are the majority of our customers) then there is no reason for us to supply them with new axles free of charge.

    I understand that you are frustrated with this situation, so as I said please email me at the address above so that we can discuss this further. The same goes for anyone else experiencing issues. Please contact us via email & we will assist you. Unfortunately we don't always have time to check this forum as regularly as we would like to.

    Thanks again for riding Banshee.

    Jon
    after all this time your answers are unacceptable imho. normal wear of the axles?!? really? my turners had years of service before i changed the axles and even then they did not need it, i just did it because i felt they were due. both my rune and spitfire show wear on the frame and axles. that's two of three bikes i rode this past year. so it's not like it was exclusive to tons of miles on my only ride. i serviced them regularily, more than any bike i have owned previously and still have issues. it's not a "maintenance issue"

    as far as overtightening, how can you call it that when you have vague instructions like "With the bike/frame in a work stand, remove the rear wheel, loosen the 3 pivot bolts & take out the rear shock bolt, so the shock is only attached to the frame via the front mount. Cycle the rear end of the frame up & down. There should be a small amount of resistance (especially if the bushings are new & need to bed in) but nothing significant. Tighten each of the pivot bolt"s whilst moving the rear end up & down. If you over tighten them, you will feel the resistance build up."

    what is the torque value for " a small amount of resistance"? how can any end user be held accountable for "overtightening" when there is no definitive torque value to your maintenance instructions? hell, the link you provide for bushing service still shows 5-6nm of torque which has now been changed to the incredibly accurate "finger tight" value now

    i have 3 grand in frames sitting in my garage useless because of an imo mickey mouse bushing system. i've given up on the bikes ever being of any value again and went and purchased another frame from another company. it's not like i have no previous experience with bushings on a bike. i've had two previous frames where i never once had bushing issues of any kind let alone frame wear from the bushings eating the aluminum of the frame. my new frame has bushings too and i can say without a doubt that turner has the bushing design down. sealed, servicable with real torque values in their instructions that use a bolts proper torque value for its size along with locktite as a preventative for loosening instead of an answer for overly low torquing.

    it's great that you have finally come up with a band aid for the frame issues but to now claim you will charge for the axles on a case by case basis is a joke and an insult to your customers who trusted you to make a frame that would stand up to the rigors of its intended purpose, you know, riding in the dirt? people who have invested their hard earned money and in some cases have been without a ride for months and now have to hope they get taken care of. this situation has just gone from bad to worse imo

    and what is a "normal wear rate"? are people with wildcards having wear rates on their pivots and bearings? how many miles should one expect from one of your axles before they start to wear? how is it that the axles and frames are being "worn" from a bushing? in any application with bushings that i know of, the "bushing" is the sacrificial element in the equation. can you explain how it is acceptable by banshee's standards for the frames and axles to wear along with the bushing? in some instances in just a few months of riding. how long should one expect an axle to last then under "normal" wear conditions?

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    The point I was trying to make was that someone with a worn frame/axles after riding the bike into the ground for 2 years without any maintenance is very different to someone who is experiencing the same issues after 2 or 3 months of light use. As such, this must be handled on a case by case basis.

    As I mentioned, please email me at jon@bansheebikes.com & we will discuss this further.

    Thanks

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    Listen BansheeJon, I don't think you are going to make any friends on these forums. To little way WAY to late. Not to mention the chronology leading to your posts---first use less torque, then use yet less torque, then finger tight, then specific grease is the problem, then finally an admission of an issue and new axle kits, then not enough axle kits to go around with mismatched parts and no directions, then nothing but excuses as to why there aren't enough axle kits to go around. Now you come out and say it's user error again because of over tightening despite some 600+ posts to the contrary, and we are to supposed to email you directly despite Keith and Jay being aware of the issue for 6 months? Wow !!

    What do you say to people that understand the FACT that the pivot system itself is fundamentally flawed? It doesn't take a genius to look at how a turner bolts up versus the Banshee and understand the Banshee pivot is a design issue and will grind itself up despite any combination of bushings, washers, or axles. It completely baffles me as to why a company with such a solid reputation would continue to sell current model year bikes with such an obvious pivot issue.
    Last edited by WHALENARD; 01-10-2012 at 02:22 PM.

  10. #10
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    For you rocket surgeons that are belittling the guys at Banshee for how obviously horrible the bushing design is I have a single question.

    If the design is soooo obviously fundamentally flawed why did you buy it?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    For you rocket surgeons that are belittling the guys at Banshee for how obviously horrible the bushing design is I have a single question.

    If the design is soooo obviously fundamentally flawed why did you buy it?
    do you take apart all the bikes you but before you purchase them? at the time of purchase i hadn't heard that there were issues. once you take it apart and see it first hand and also see torque specs changing as issues crop up it's a little late to back out. plus see your frame disintegrating before your eyes despite maintaining it as directed and see others having the same issue the flaw becomes rather apparent

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    do you take apart all the bikes you but before you purchase them? at the time of purchase i hadn't heard that there were issues. once you take it apart and see it first hand and also see torque specs changing as issues crop up it's a little late to back out.
    Agreed. The achilles heel is simply how the pivot is "pinched" bolted together. Other then that they are awesome bikes. It's unfortunate banshee will not acknowledge this and many are beginning to fell fleeced.

    How would a rocket surgeon like yourself address the issue jirk?

  13. #13
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    I'd like to point out that not all people are having issues, I've got a solid 2 seasons of use on my Spitty (6 - 20 hours a week in summer, all off road), I've replaced the bushings at the end of each season, just replaced 1 axle (the smaller one on the lower pivot) and inspected the frame for irregular wear and so far all is good. Before that I had 2 years on a Pyre Mk 2 with the same bushing systems, totally problem free. I'm in no way implying that there aren't issues, a friend of mine has been having them with his Spitfire this past summer, but as Jay has recently said, they aren't entirely sure why some frames are having issues and some aren't.

  14. #14
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    So what exactly are you premature-pivot-wear-experiencing owners hoping to get out of this thread?

    Are you trying to discourage Jon, Keith & Jay from posting here, and interacting with their customers? No benefit there- especially for those of us who haven't had any issues.

    Has anybody taken Jon up on his request to email for warranty details? Has anybody tried the wear washer installation? This should be easy... get an RA#, get the frame looked at by Banshee, get a warranty frame, crash replacement deal, pivot kit, credit towards a non-bushing frame, whatever. The options aren't up to me, but these are the avenues I'd be exploring off-line, as I have with other brands when their frames failed, as they do....

    I really hope you guys get hooked up and the outcome is positive, but I also feel you've well made your point- Personally I don't want to hear about your pivot issues (again) anymore than you want to hear (again) that my frame (or anybody elses) has been completely free of issues. More posts aren't going to solve anything -There's just a time to take things off-line...again that's how I've always dealt with potential warranty issues (having on both sides). personally I'd much rather hear that you & Banshee worked things out off-line, and the outcome was mutually acceptable- whatever it was. I don't believe the Banshee forum on MTBR is going to help your warranty processes in any way.
    Last edited by FM; 01-10-2012 at 11:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big JC View Post
    How would a rocket surgeon like yourself address the issue jirk?
    I'd first contact the dealer where I bought the bike, then I'd contact Banshee directly.

    Seems pretty damn simple to me. I wouldn't expect my problem to be fixed on some forum.

    FM nails it. I know people riding the frames that have no issues and I know people that have had issues. It's a case by case situation. If you clearly read Jon's post above they are dealing with it case by case, there is no one magic bullet fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    So what exactly are you premature-pivot-wear-experiencing owners hoping to get out of this thread?

    Are you trying to discourage Jon, Keith & Jay from posting here, and interacting with their customers? No benefit there- especially for those of us who haven't had any issues.

    Has anybody taken Jon up on his request to email for warranty details? Has anybody tried the wear washer installation? This should be easy... get an RA#, get the frame looked at by Banshee, get a warranty frame, crash replacement deal, pivot kit, credit towards a non-bushing frame, whatever. The options aren't up to me, but these are the avenues I'd be exploring off-line, as I have with other brands when their frames failed, as they do....

    I really hope you guys get hooked up and the outcome is positive, but I also feel you've well made your point- Personally I don't want to hear about your pivot issues (again) anymore than you want to hear (again) that my frame (or anybody elses) has been completely free of issues. More posts aren't going to solve anything -There's just a time to take things off-line...again that's how I've always dealt with potential warranty issues (having on both sides). personally I'd much rather hear that you & Banshee worked things out off-line, and the outcome was mutually acceptable- whatever it was. I don't believe the Banshee forum on MTBR is going to help your warranty processes in any way.

  16. #16
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    FM,

    I think you fail to recognize the real problem for some posters is that Banshee doesn't say directly the design is flawwed and keeps pushing a so-so solution for the time being. It's clear to me by my own frame the design & tollerances aren't up for the job and should no longer be sold if not changed. Harder coating on axles will only make the bushings wear faster, that's fine if you have customers who can and will replace these 2 times a season. Good luck finding those cause appart from the enthusiastic bunch on these forums allot of rider's let their shop repair their bike when it needs it, i.e when parts seize up/ stop functioning. Which for a frame is way to late ofcourse. You can't possibly expect anyone to have this much regular service required for the price these frame's go for, it's downright laughable.

    And appart from having to add diy spacer's on my frame which will problably mean it won't wear out anytime soon, i'm done with how Banshee is dealing with this issue in public. All sneaky hush-hush if you got problems just email us, it would make their reputition stand out to just face facts, but that will hurt sales I bet. I know they can't just stop production and stop selling existing frame's and push either a new bushing design or bearing version on the market. However you have a fairly quick solution to re-design all the rockers and axles. Allthough it probably can't have a decent anti-overtighten feature you could make the rockers clamp the axles like you see on lot's of frame's clamping bearings. This would solve the biggest issue which is the side-pinch tightening. That takes far more time and effort but it's better than keep adding bandaids allong the way, and keep selling possible future nightmare frame's on the market. That will hurt sales alot more down the way, and with it a big chunk of Banshee's reputation. Which I think is an absolute shame cause the bike itself ride's bloody f******* good.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneeck View Post
    FM,

    I think you fail to recognize the real problem for some posters is that Banshee doesn't say directly the design is flawwed
    Hey Sneeck,
    I don't think we can agree that the design is inherently flawed. As Martin pointed out, a number of us (the large majority, according to Banshee) have not experienced pivot issues on frames that have been well used.

    Inherently flawed implies that the design will fail every time, regardless of how well it's executed. I don't think that's what's going on here. As you guys have pointed out, there's many other factors (tolerances, consistently repeatable maintenance process, torque specs) which have nothing to do with the design, but are probably the issue. Semantics, but it really does come down to "what's the root cause behind the issues?" I don't believe it's the design, but that's not to say there aren't other issues.

    By the way, I can see where for you guys that DO have pivot issues, it sucks to hear other people say "Mine are fine". Martin, myself and others- we're not trying to rub it in, or imply the issues are your fault. Just pointing out the design is probably not the issue, since the issue has not been consistent. Also consider... if the design is not the issue, updating the design might not fix the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneeck View Post
    i'm done with how Banshee is dealing with this issue in public. All sneaky hush-hush if you got problems just email us,
    I don't get how this is sneaky or wrong.

    If you feel you have a problem contact them.

    If my car is broken I don't post on a forum and cross my fingers in hopes that someone contacts me. I go to the dealer where I bought the car. If I am unsatisfied with that service then I contact the manufacture directly.

    Why on earth do you want them to post the fine details of each and every particular frame case online? It's a waist of limited resources.

    Fairly safe to say Banshee knows there are problems. They are dealing with them on a case by case basis.

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    FM (and shirk),

    My biggest concern isn't the design or more maintenance work on my ride, but the way Banshee is handeling this towards the public. I won't call myself a diehard Banshee fanatic but I sure as hell praise the way they ride and in general the way Banshee is as a company. On my first frame, the Wildcard, there was some interference with the stock bend-in rockers on air shocks and they made a rapid run of flat rockers, free of charge if you wanted them. No questions asked, delivery was free, totally awesome, even came with bearings installed.

    Now I have a real feeling that if they continue to adress the situation the way they are, even if only 1% of riders need the bandaid-kit, it will cause allot of people to talk negative about Banshee. Allthough they can have some in this case, they don't deserve it cause the rest of their range of bikes if perfectly fine and ride's fantastic. Reputition is something you build up over the years but can be destroyed in litteraly months, if not weeks, specially with lots of negative threads on the internet. Yes there are little known issues NOW, but they sold and still selling old frame's which for example their owners don't ride often and have yet to develop problems before the world knows about it. I think allot more problematic frame's can be expected over next season, and all i'm trying to say is Banshee better be ready with a permanant fix to keep everyone happy in the long run. They deserve it but so far their efforts are like a drop on a hot plate thing IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    If the design is soooo obviously fundamentally flawed why did you buy it?
    Ummm, b/c I'm no mechanical engineer. When plunking down 1400 clams for a frame, I'd like to think I could rest assure that it'll work!

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    Consider this scenario. I have a Kuat NV rack- after a year of hard use, the main pivot got sloppy. I called Kuat and they ended up taking excellent care of me (great customer service!). The cool part, was they requested close-up pictures of the pivot surfaces & video showing the amount of play. The rep I spoke with was clear that this information would be passed on to the design & mfg team to consider changes which might prevent these issues.

    Now apply here. It could be that the pivot issues have nothing to do with design OR user (perhaps they were over-tightened at factory assembly, parts were out of tolerance, whatever)- how would Banshee know without inspecting the frames? In all fairness, they really need to see the issues to improve their product AND figure out what a fair solution is for the owner. MTBR is (and should be) irrelevant.

    That’s why all this should be resolved directly with Banshee off-line. More posts are just getting people worked up, (and damaging banshee’s rep, as Sneeck said) with no other result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneeck View Post
    FM (and shirk),

    My biggest concern isn't the design or more maintenance work on my ride, but the way Banshee is handeling this towards the public. I won't call myself a diehard Banshee fanatic but I sure as hell praise the way they ride and in general the way Banshee is as a company. On my first frame, the Wildcard, there was some interference with the stock bend-in rockers on air shocks and they made a rapid run of flat rockers, free of charge if you wanted them. No questions asked, delivery was free, totally awesome, even came with bearings installed.

    Now I have a real feeling that if they continue to adress the situation the way they are, even if only 1% of riders need the bandaid-kit, it will cause allot of people to talk negative about Banshee. Allthough they can have some in this case, they don't deserve it cause the rest of their range of bikes if perfectly fine and ride's fantastic. Reputition is something you build up over the years but can be destroyed in litteraly months, if not weeks, specially with lots of negative threads on the internet. Yes there are little known issues NOW, but they sold and still selling old frame's which for example their owners don't ride often and have yet to develop problems before the world knows about it. I think allot more problematic frame's can be expected over next season, and all i'm trying to say is Banshee better be ready with a permanant fix to keep everyone happy in the long run. They deserve it but so far their efforts are like a drop on a hot plate thing IMHO.
    Well said dude. What we really need is for more people to step forward with posts like this. These forums are public and are a great tool for many things including holding said company accountabable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Consider this scenario. I have a Kuat NV rack- after a year of hard use, the main pivot got sloppy. I called Kuat and they ended up taking excellent care of me (great customer service!). The cool part, was they requested close-up pictures of the pivot surfaces & video showing the amount of play. The rep I spoke with was clear that this information would be passed on to the design & mfg team to consider changes which might prevent these issues.

    Now apply here. It could be that the pivot issues have nothing to do with design OR user (perhaps they were over-tightened at factory assembly, parts were out of tolerance, whatever)- how would Banshee know without inspecting the frames? In all fairness, they really need to see the issues to improve their product AND figure out what a fair solution is for the owner. MTBR is (and should be) irrelevant.

    That’s why all this should be resolved directly with Banshee off-line. More posts are just getting people worked up, (and damaging banshee’s rep, as Sneeck said) with no other result.
    just curious, how do you know how much contact anyone has had with banshee off the forums?

    as far as the forums themselves go, they are on a consumer review site related to mountain biking. they are a double edged sword as they should be. when a company does well, people post their experiences and it can help a company establish a positive rep. the flipside is, when you have a problem and people feel it hasn't been handled well it can have the opposite effect as it should because ultimately we are here as riders, not company reps.

    i want to hear how things go whether they are good or bad experiences as it helps people make sound decisions when they go to spend their money. this isn't a site dedicated to kissing a companies azz

    so in the future anyone who has a positive experience should keep that off the forums as well? that seems to be along the lines of your criteria for posting here. i don't agrre with that philosophy. there needs to be the good and the bad and if the company is doing things right there won't be much bad. it's not just one guy posting venom. there are more than a few who have posted issues and had problems all related to the pivots.

    whether it is a design failure or tolerances or lack of seals or whatever, banshee switching to bearings says a lot about their confidence in the current design and their ability to control those variables going forward. obviously they aren't that happy with it or they wouldn't be changing would they?
    Last edited by qbert2000; 01-11-2012 at 05:54 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    I'd first contact the dealer where I bought the bike, then I'd contact Banshee directly.

    Seems pretty damn simple to me. .
    That's genius, how did you ever come up with such an idea? What do you say to the guy that has already warrantied their frame 2-3 times? Some guys have warrantied both a Spitfire and Rune multiple times. Can you imagine what a colossal pita is to strip ship & rebuilt a bike twice a season only to ****** the pivots again? Some guys aren't capable of stripping & rebuilding and pay their bike shop to do it plus the cost of shipping. At the cost of these frames that is unacceptable hence tightening the screws in a public forum which seems like a no brainer to me.
    Last edited by WHALENARD; 01-11-2012 at 06:20 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Hey Sneeck,
    I don't think we can agree that the design is inherently flawed. As Martin pointed out, a number of us (the large majority, according to Banshee) have not experienced pivot issues on frames that have been well used.

    Inherently flawed implies that the design will fail every time, regardless of how well it's executed. I don't think that's what's going on here. As you guys have pointed out, there's many other factors (tolerances, consistently repeatable maintenance process, torque specs) which have nothing to do with the design, but are probably the issue. Semantics, but it really does come down to "what's the root cause behind the issues?" I don't believe it's the design, but that's not to say there aren't other issues.

    By the way, I can see where for you guys that DO have pivot issues, it sucks to hear other people say "Mine are fine". Martin, myself and others- we're not trying to rub it in, or imply the issues are your fault. Just pointing out the design is probably not the issue, since the issue has not been consistent. Also consider... if the design is not the issue, updating the design might not fix the problem.
    While there are a lot of factors there are most CERTAINLY several issues with the design of the pivot. First the more you tighten the bolt the tighter the pivot, this is stupid. The axle itself essentially floats as it is not directly bolted to the rocker , chainstay , or seatstay which allows side loading, this is also stupid. One needs no more proof than the pics of the wear patterns on the "rune bushings again" thread to see evidence of side loading. The side loading also breaks the pivot bolts loose which is undoubtedly why people over tighten the pivot. The advantages of bolting the axle tight to the rockers are obvious; it would make for a stiffer more rigid pivot by a wide margin, it would substantially reduce side loading, it would be impossible to overtighten. Physically none of the former points are debatable. This seems like a simple and easy change to me. What I can't understand is why banshee not only didn't do this from day one but won't do it now.

    Regarding who says what on what forum who are you to dictate that FM? If you don't want to read it don't. These forums are a public venue and serve many purposes other than your own or what's in banshee's best interest. It is my right as a consumer if not my duty to hold banshee accountable for their product. I encourage everybody with pivot problems to do just that.

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