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  1. #1
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    spitfire over DW 5 spot?

    I think a spitfire may be the right bike for me, but I need some convincing. 2011 5 spot was another serious consideration, along with Blur TRC, but I just cant get right with paying $2500 for a frame, and I dont think there will be great deals on the TRC this year. I'm leaning toward a 5 spot since there are great deals right now.

    The pivot bushing issues make me think the Turner is a better choice for me, along with a design that shrugs off chainsuck when it happens. Seems like you'd be hard pressed to find a more reliable trail bike than a Turner? Convince me otherwise, as aside from those issues the Spitfire sounds like it would suit me slightly better. I am currently riding a Ragley mmmbop (similar geometry to spitfire) and love how it handles, What I want is a full suspension version of that ride and handling, with minimal maintenance issues. By the way I'm a good with bicycle mechanics, just dont get around to bike maintenance as much as I'd like.

    Cheers,
    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Lee View Post
    I think a spitfire may be the right bike for me, but I need some convincing. 2011 5 spot was another serious consideration, along with Blur TRC, but I just cant get right with paying $2500 for a frame, and I dont think there will be great deals on the TRC this year. I'm leaning toward a 5 spot since there are great deals right now.

    The pivot bushing issues make me think the Turner is a better choice for me, along with a design that shrugs off chainsuck when it happens. Seems like you'd be hard pressed to find a more reliable trail bike than a Turner? Convince me otherwise, as aside from those issues the Spitfire sounds like it would suit me slightly better. I am currently riding a Ragley mmmbop (similar geometry to spitfire) and love how it handles, What I want is a full suspension version of that ride and handling, with minimal maintenance issues. By the way I'm a good with bicycle mechanics, just dont get around to bike maintenance as much as I'd like.

    Cheers,
    Jim
    Spitfire is a better choice for what you are looking for. But for QC, you don't want to go Spitfire right now unless you find a screaming deal used, which you can.

    Seems like MANY people are selling their Banshees right now. If you really want the Spitfire, I would wait until Banshee redoes their design. Probably wont be until later next year.

    Good luck with decision.

  3. #3
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    the 11 5spot is prety close to the spitfire geometry wise. much more than the previous versions. i have one on the way to me right now, there are some screaming deals on them out there. it's a crapshoot bushing wise right now with the banshees. i'm still noit thrilled to be shimming a frame or waiting for a factory shim kit. i went turner because i have had them in the past and they are pretty bullet proof. they finally got the geometry right with the 11's and with the sale price on them it's the best price you'll see on them for years. if banshee had ever responded to my question about an upgrade to a new version for cost with an old damaged/worn frame i would have just waited. as far as the numbers some guys were throwing around on what cost would be, i know what the projected cost is for a proto prime and i can't for the life of me see how the spitty or rune would be any more cost wise for banshee.

    but like i said, no answer from keith on that so i'm back to turner for now. will be interesting to see how it rides compared to my rune and spitty. i know fm says we should just solve the problem ourselves and keep riding but i'd actually expect to have to do that if i was riding a chumba, not a banshee. i did expect at least an answer on the trade in idea from keith but he avoided it every time i mentioned it and when it was mentioned by others.

    if i was you i would think long and hard on the decision, you are talking $1500 of your hard earned dollars either way. i love the ride of both the rune and spitty but the maintenance issues are too much for me and can fail even if you are diligent. i know jay and keith have said that the number of problems re far outweighed by the number without problems but for me i've seen too many people just on these forums saying they had wear issues. those posts aren't everyone that has had issues and i know it works both ways as far as people that haven't had problems too but it's still too many imho.

    good luck with your decision. i'd personally wait on a v2 spitfire if that's the way you are leaning as afar as spitty vs spot goes.

  4. #4
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    Seems like you might be comparing a bunch of different deals...
    1. Used spitfire with questionable pivots vs. a new 5spot?
    2. New spitfire with the older pivot design (and possible free pivot upgrade option) vs. a new 5spot?
    3. New Spitfire with updated pivots & axles vs. a new 5spot?


    Of those three, I'd say #1- 5spot, #2- coin toss, and #3, Spitfire...obviosuly price difference could tip the scales on #2.
    Turner definitely has good customer service and dialed pivot design.
    I've owned 3 turners over the years and they weren't without their own issues though..some of which required DIY fixes suggested by Turner, incidentally. Overall the rune has been a better bike for me on all fronts.

    I wouldn't wait for a v2 of anything. Look at the development times for frames like the new RFX, Chilcotin, or Prime....No reason to wait possibly 2-4 years for the next best thing when there's good deals on bikes you could ride now.

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    Thanks for the feedback, I am too busy with work and children to mess with a malfunctioning bike instead of getting to ride.

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    [QUOTE=FM;8582735]Seems like you might be comparing a bunch of different deals...
    1. Used spitfire with questionable pivots vs. a new 5spot?
    2. New spitfire with the older pivot design (and possible free pivot upgrade option) vs. a new 5spot?
    3. New Spitfire with updated pivots & axles vs. a new 5spot?


    does banshee have a pivot upgrade or updated pivots? I thought they were only putting out a repair kit to alleviate play in defective pivots. No pivot upgrades as far as I know. Just rapie kits. Is there something different, FM?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    I wouldn't wait for a v2 of anything. Look at the development times for frames like the new RFX, Chilcotin, or Prime....No reason to wait possibly 2-4 years for the next best thing when there's good deals on bikes you could ride now.
    This.
    I'm kicking myself for wasting another year on my BLT last year but finally pulled the trigger on a Spitty this year. Having so much fun on my bike I can't even put it in words! Who cares if I have to do a lil more maintenance? Oh, and good riddance to VPP and SC! The Spot (as with most DW link bikes) rides very nice but for the price diff, and more aggro geometry, the Spitty is PERFECT for me!

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiawatha-de View Post
    does banshee have a pivot upgrade or updated pivots? I thought they were only putting out a repair kit to alleviate play in defective pivots. No pivot upgrades as far as I know. Just rapie kits. Is there something different, FM?
    In addition to this thread there was also this info from Chad (DropNZone).

    Enough reading to keep one busy....

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Lee View Post
    Thanks for the feedback, I am too busy with work and children to mess with a malfunctioning bike instead of getting to ride.
    I see an AM hardtail in your future!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    This.
    I'm kicking myself for wasting another year on my BLT last year but finally pulled the trigger on a Spitty this year. Having so much fun on my bike I can't even put it in words! Who cares if I have to do a lil more maintenance? Oh, and good riddance to VPP and SC! The Spot (as with most DW link bikes) rides very nice but for the price diff, and more aggro geometry, the Spitty is PERFECT for me!

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    at $1600 for a new spot it's not far off price wise from a spitfire and it is close geometry wise. the 11's came with a lower bb, slacker headangle and the pivot system is head and shoulders above the banshee design. sealed and no tolerance issues. i want to stay a banshee fan but the deal on the spots is killer.

  11. #11
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    11 5spot geometry

    2011 geometry ::.
    { Listed geometry based on a 525mm axle to crown fork with a 26"x2.3" tire, acceptable fork travel range: 130-160mm }
    Geometry Key
    sm md lg xl 2xl all
    a: virtual tt 22.5 23.0 23.6 24.5 25.3 g: head angle 67.7
    b: seat tube 15 17 19 21 23 h: seat angle 73.0
    c: head tube 3.7 4.5 5.3 6.1 6.8 i: chainstay 16.9
    d: stack 22.3 23.1 23.8 24.6 25.7 j: bb height 13.5
    e: reach 15.3 15.6 16.0 16.4 17.1 bb shell 73mm
    f: standover 28.9 30.2 31.0 32.0 33.0 seat post 30.9mm
    frame weight 6.7 6.8 7.0 7.1 7.3 head tube 44mm
    rec'd rider size 5'2-5'6 5'6-5'10 5'10-6'1 6'1-6'4 6'4 +


    it's right there geometry wise with the spitfire. with a 160mm fork and zero stack 44mm headset its just about right and you avoid any bushing issues.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    I see an AM hardtail in your future!
    I have one, the Ragley and it is a sweet ride, especially since I got the frame for about $200 on close out. Ragley is coming out with some full suspension frames soon. Hmmm hard to pass up the deal on the spot tho.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Lee View Post
    I have one, the Ragley and it is a sweet ride, especially since I got the frame for about $200 on close out. Ragley is coming out with some full suspension frames soon. Hmmm hard to pass up the deal on the spot tho.
    Mmmmmm.....

    spitfire over DW 5 spot?-p4pb7068706.jpg

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    11 5spot geometry

    2011 geometry ::.
    { Listed geometry based on a 525mm axle to crown fork with a 26"x2.3" tire, acceptable fork travel range: 130-160mm }
    Geometry Key
    sm md lg xl 2xl all
    a: virtual tt 22.5 23.0 23.6 24.5 25.3 g: head angle 67.7
    b: seat tube 15 17 19 21 23 h: seat angle 73.0
    c: head tube 3.7 4.5 5.3 6.1 6.8 i: chainstay 16.9
    d: stack 22.3 23.1 23.8 24.6 25.7 j: bb height 13.5
    e: reach 15.3 15.6 16.0 16.4 17.1 bb shell 73mm
    f: standover 28.9 30.2 31.0 32.0 33.0 seat post 30.9mm
    frame weight 6.7 6.8 7.0 7.1 7.3 head tube 44mm
    rec'd rider size 5'2-5'6 5'6-5'10 5'10-6'1 6'1-6'4 6'4 +


    it's right there geometry wise with the spitfire. with a 160mm fork and zero stack 44mm headset its just about right and you avoid any bushing issues.
    Unless I'm reading something incorrectly, it appears that the new 5spot is not nearly as aggressive in terms of geometry. With a 160 mm fork, the Spitfire has a 66* HA and 13.1" BB height. Not sure what a 525mm a2c fork is off the top of my head, but if its, less than a 160 mm, the Spitfire is still significantly lower, if not slacker as well. Plus, the 5spot looks to be a fair bit heavier as well. Certainly not saying it's not a good bike, but the closest think I've found to the Spitfire geo (and frame weight) is a new Yeti ARS5. All that said, you can always throw an angleset in a given bike and slacken it up a fair bit, and I do agree the Turner pivots are far superior.
    Last edited by Will Murderface; 10-31-2011 at 10:12 AM.

  15. #15
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    Most 160mm forks are around 545mm a2c. That should put the 5-spot head angle around 67 degrees, and the BB around 13-3/4", maybe 14" with bigger tires. Sounds slack, but not particularly low..... on paper at least.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Murderface View Post
    Unless I'm reading something incorrectly, it appears that the new 5spot is not nearly as aggressive in terms of geometry. With a 160 mm fork, the Spitfire has a 66* HA and 13.1" BB height. Not sure what a 525mm a2c fork is off the top of my head, but if its, less than a 160 mm, the Spitfire is still significantly lower, if not slacker as well. Plus, the 5spot looks to be a fair bit heavier as well. Certainly not saying it's not a good bike, but the closest think I've found to the Spitfire geo (and frame weight) is a new Yeti ARS5. All that said, you can always throw an angleset in a given bike and slacken it up a fair bit, and I do agree the Turner pivots are far superior.
    I think that Turner measures their geometry with an external lower cup. zero stack and 160mm Fork will keep the bb under 14" and Cane Creek and Works components both make an angle-set for 44mm headtubes now.

    NEW - 1 5 Degree EC44 - ZS44 - Angle Headset Semi-Integrated type

    Cane Creek Cycling Components :: Components :: Headsets EC44 | ZS44

    And yes the Turner bushings are better than the Banshee design

  17. #17
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    I recently went through this with my Yelli screamy (tapered steerer & head tube)- no way to run an integrated / zero stack headset with both tapered head tube & steerer tube fork. So you end up sacrificing stiffness to get the geometry you want, or vice versa. Not to mention, it's getting difficult to find straight 1-1/8th steerer tube forks...

  18. #18
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    I honestly don't think you could wrong with either bike and would throw in the transition covert and yeti sb-66 for good measure. I have owned (and broke) several turners and my main trail bike for the summer has been a spitfire. The spitfire is an awesome bike but get to ride and compare an 11spot as two of my riding buddies ride them. We all have 160 coil forks and push shocks. The spot pedals better (more neutral), has way better suspension action under pedaling load, is substantially stiffer, and the pivots, if like previous models, will last forever. With that said the spitfire is simply more fun. It's such a "fast" bike literally losing zero momentum on roots & rocks etc. It's a little lower, slacker, and longer than the spot and you feel it. If you like to rip single track try to get ride in on a spitfire.

    My thoughts on the pivots- take the time to set them up properly when new. Make sure none of the pivots are bound up or pinched and cycles through it's travel (without the shock on) smoothly. Locktite on clean threads. Get the grease tool from dunerize and grease them often.

  19. #19
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    Thanks all, very good information. I think I'm going with the 5 spot, even though I suspect the spitfire will be "more fun". I dont think I can find a test ride on a spitfire in my area, I've never even seen one in person. To be fair I dont remember ever seeing a dw 5 spot on the trail either.

    The geometry of the spot is pretty close enough to geometry of my hardtail and way more slack than my last full suspension bike, so I'm sure I'll be happy with it. Since I dont see sptifires around, I'll probably neve ride one and think "shoulda gone with the spitfire"

  20. #20
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    I doubt anybody ever regretted buying a turner

  21. #21
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    my 5spot is on it's way along with a set of 1.5 degree works cups. will have it as slack as the spitfire and wheelbase will be about the same. bb should be just under 13.5" as i'll be running my lyric at 150mm. with the zero stack lower and the works cups it should be as close to the spitty as i can get and i don't mind the bb being a little higher anyways. less pedal strikes and less concentration on pedals in rocks

  22. #22
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    "I doubt anybody ever regretted buying a turner"

    There are plenty of models they make and/or made I would regret owning - simply because there are better options available. The original DHR's had well known bushing wear issues, and the sizing was wonky IMO. And for the most part, their bikes tend to have relatively high BBs, with the DHR models being the notable exceptions. That said, I think Dave is simply responding to what most riders prefer, so I can't really fault them for the BB issue. And of course they have a well deserved reputation for providing excellent customer service, and they seem to have no issue resolving a problem (e.g. early batch of new DHRs) when/if it occurs.

    As for the new 5spot, I'm sure it will ride great, but it would also be nice to not have to use an angle set to get the geo you want. Heck, you can put an angle set into practically any bike and get pretty close to the Spitty geo. To me, that is one of the main selling points of the Spitty - I just had to swap parts and I instantly had a mini-DH slayer.

    Regardless of what I think, I hope qbert enjoys the new ride!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Murderface View Post
    "I doubt anybody ever regretted buying a turner"

    There are plenty of models they make and/or made I would regret owning - simply because there are better options available. The original DHR's had well known bushing wear issues, and the sizing was wonky IMO. And for the most part, their bikes tend to have relatively high BBs, with the DHR models being the notable exceptions. That said, I think Dave is simply responding to what most riders prefer, so I can't really fault them for the BB issue. And of course they have a well deserved reputation for providing excellent customer service, and they seem to have no issue resolving a problem (e.g. early batch of new DHRs) when/if it occurs.

    As for the new 5spot, I'm sure it will ride great, but it would also be nice to not have to use an angle set to get the geo you want. Heck, you can put an angle set into practically any bike and get pretty close to the Spitty geo. To me, that is one of the main selling points of the Spitty - I just had to swap parts and I instantly had a mini-DH slayer.

    Regardless of what I think, I hope qbert enjoys the new ride!
    I wouldn't dispute any of that and love my spitfire. I was speaking more about the general reliability of a turner. In case you haven't read through some of the forums many people are unhappy with the quality control of thier spitty's & rune's pivots

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Murderface View Post
    "I doubt anybody ever regretted buying a turner"

    There are plenty of models they make and/or made I would regret owning - simply because there are better options available. The original DHR's had well known bushing wear issues, and the sizing was wonky IMO. And for the most part, their bikes tend to have relatively high BBs, with the DHR models being the notable exceptions. That said, I think Dave is simply responding to what most riders prefer, so I can't really fault them for the BB issue. And of course they have a well deserved reputation for providing excellent customer service, and they seem to have no issue resolving a problem (e.g. early batch of new DHRs) when/if it occurs.

    As for the new 5spot, I'm sure it will ride great, but it would also be nice to not have to use an angle set to get the geo you want. Heck, you can put an angle set into practically any bike and get pretty close to the Spitty geo. To me, that is one of the main selling points of the Spitty - I just had to swap parts and I instantly had a mini-DH slayer.

    Regardless of what I think, I hope qbert enjoys the new ride!
    i was stoked on both my spitfire and my rune. having issues with both. i followed all recommended maintenance instructions and still have issues. for all the talk it's an isolated issue you can see that they are anxious to provide a fix which makes me believe more than 1% of the frames are having issues. yes, i wish i didn't have to use and angleset to get what i want but i'll take the improved bushing system of the turner over what i've personally experienced with my banshee pivots.

    People can talk all they want about finding your own solution. i can, i am a millwright and could spend hours coming up with a fix that would still ultimately leave me pi$$ed ast the end result, but i prefer to spend my time not riding doing things with my family or actually doing my job when i;m at work.

    so for me the answer was another manufacturer right now. i've still heard nothing from keith about a trade in program. they may be working on a fix but i've still not seen that it will actually solve the issue pr just buy more time before the aluminum starts to wear down. so ultimately i'm a little disappointed in it all. i hope the fix works and version 2 with bearings lasts longer but i don't know if i'll be purchasing revision 2 or just observing how things are going

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by big JC View Post
    I doubt anybody ever regretted buying a turner
    I can't say "regret" - after all, bikes are fun to ride - but no brand is without issues. Overall I am much happier with my Banshee than I was with any of the 3 turners I owned, and I plan to keep it longer.

    Generally I don't think it's cool to diss brand X bikes on brand Y forum, but I have personally seen significant issues with many brands, which were much bigger deals than the banshee pivots. Generally it's how the brand deals with it that creates a positive/negative reputation. However, it does seem like the smaller builder/ more expensive frames generally seem to have more issues than the less expensive, made overseas brands.

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