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  1. #1
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    RUNE vs WILDCARD for agressive AM riding???

    Hi Banshee riders,

    here I go again, comparing apples with oranges. Or maybe not!?

    As I have already written in another thread I am looking for the classical DO-IT-ALL-BIKE. Coming from a Trek Remedy I wanted to step up in terms of stability to not longer pedal around and avoid stunts, drops or jumps because I am afraid of breaking my frame. I mainly do XC/AM-Tours with some rough descends and small jumps but would also like to do much more aggressive trail surfing and jumping while riding the right bike.

    So I stand here, not having ridden the Rune or the Wildcard because it is very difficult to find one here in Germany.

    I really like all the action pics and videos in the RUNE-thread but the RUNE might be too close to my Remedy to give more trust in my riding. On the other hand the wildcard is done for slope-style stuff which means mostly tricks with shaped landings. Anyway is it correct to say this bike is stronger than the RUNE when it comes to drops into flat for example. From pictures there seems not too much differences and the wildcard looks not much burlier than the RUNE.

    Both frames would cost me nearly the same so money is not the point.

    The point is how much uphill comfort do I lose choosing the wildcard and how much downhill fun do I lose going with the RUNE?

    I read in one Pinbike Review that the Wildcard, if build up lightweight, could go uphill not much worse than a Stumpjumper…

    I would build up the bike mainly with these components and 160mm travel:

    36 TALAS RLC FIT
    DHX AIR 5.0 (will soon be upgrated to Monarch RC3)
    Elixier CR
    X9/X0 Family
    Race Face Atlas AM crank
    DT Swiss EX 1750 wheelset
    Joplin 4R

    I am 6´3 tall and weight 185 lbs and would choose both bikes in large

    Any suggestions?
    Last edited by kalkhoffpink; 10-30-2011 at 09:36 AM.

  2. #2
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    at 6'3" you should be looking at an xl rune and the wildcard has a cramped cockpit too. i'd get a rune if i was you.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    at 6'3" you should be looking at an xl rune and the wildcard has a cramped cockpit too. i'd get a rune if i was you.
    Thanks for the input, but the top tube of the L-frame is 609mm or 24", that´s exactely the size of my Remedy. XL would be far too big I think.

    By the way, I postet my height wrong, its only 6.2 !!!!

    But the size is only the second point after the main decision....

  4. #4
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    the rune is great going down. plus it does pedal better. although it isn't great in the granny ring so if that's a need the wildcard will actually have no pedal feedback in the granny vs the rune

  5. #5
    FM
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    I am super happy with my Rune as a light FR/DH bike, the right build really transforms it.
    I'm running K9 angleset, nice tight cockpit with 30" bars with a 50mm stem, Elka coil, and a float 160. You could run a regular headset and 180 fork to achieve about the same head angle, but with more travel and a slightly higher BB.
    For AM riding, I've got some stans flow rims with minion exo 2.5s'.. light and very capable....for DH/FR days I have some beefy transition revolution 32's with minion DHF 3c dual plys. The added weight and traction of the beefier wheelset makes a huge difference for fall line gnarl. PLus it's great to have a cheap wheelset for big moves so you don't have to worry about casing gaps etc. It's been the lightest-duty bike in the crew on several shuttle days, but I've had no complaints or issues.

    Haven't ridden a wildcard, but the shorter chainstays & wheelbase & suspension make me think it will be more poppy and snappy, but less stable at high speeds and in chunky stuff.

    Really love my Rune.




  6. #6
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    I would prefer a 22/36 combi because i am not the best trained rider..
    But uphill is definitely important for me. Is pedal feedback really such an big issue?
    I have not tested the RUNE so far, but I rode the Reign X a couple of times (not on very steep climbs) and I did not notice it very much. Isn´t the MAESTRO system close to the one at the RUNE?

  7. #7
    FM
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    The rune has more pedal feedback than maestro but is also more active while braking. It does have a similar anti-squat feel during seated pedaling. Climbs really well if you are seated & smooth spinner. The feedback rears it's head if you get out of the saddle in the granny gear or mash gears.
    definitely consider an air shock if you want to mitigate the pedal feedback. It's much worse with a coil shock (but the coils are so nice for descending...)

    Hope that helps.

  8. #8
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    Yes thanks a lot, as already written in my list I want to build it up with the DHX 5 (Air) and that upgrade (or not) to a Monarch RC3 or a Roco TST Air. They all have something like ProPedal (Platform).

    Anybody who would tend towards the wildcard for my purpose???

  9. #9
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    Nice pics, nice ride...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalkhoffpink View Post
    But uphill is definitely important for me. Is pedal feedback really such an big issue?
    In my opinion, it depends on where you ride. If you ride in rough rocky terrain, you'll notice the feedback more. Here in AZ, we have a lot of very steep, rocky climbs, which isn't the best scenario for a suspension that has feedback. If you ride smoother trails with drops and such, I think the Rune would shine there.
    "Don't feel bad. A lot of people have no talent"

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunerinaz View Post
    In my opinion, it depends on where you ride. If you ride in rough rocky terrain, you'll notice the feedback more. Here in AZ, we have a lot of very steep, rocky climbs, which isn't the best scenario for a suspension that has feedback. If you ride smoother trails with drops and such, I think the Rune would shine there.
    Most trails I ride are "smoother" without harsh rocky terrain, so I agree the RUNE will do its best there, but what about the "dowhnhill" with a lot of speed, jumps become longer, with a lot of trust in the material drops get higher. I do not tend to do bikeparks with drops above 5 foot. But untill I have the talent to land them all smoth and not flat a little more stability would be fine... And besides that, there are some trails I have not ridden yet, with jumps and landings that are are not well shaped, so maybe too much for the RUNE?

  12. #12
    FM
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    I think what Duneirinaz was getting at, is that the anti-squat is a benefit on smooth climbs...for chunky/ledgy climbs, the anti-squat can create "chain stretch" in some gears.. sometimes not ideal.

    That's consistent with my experience... The majority of rides I do on the Rune involve smooth fire-road climbs, where the pedal feedback is a non-issue. Otherwise I am shuttling this bike, typically.

    On descents, it's great regardless of chunky or smooth. The minilink suspension allows the rear wheel to extend up & over stuff that would hang up many other suspension designs. Lots of benefits for descending...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post

    On descents, it's great regardless of chunky or smooth. The minilink suspension allows the rear wheel to extend up & over stuff that would hang up many other suspension designs. Lots of benefits for descending...
    From your opinions it seems clear to me, that the wildcard is not the right alternative for the RUNE. Maybe the Intense UZZI would be a choice???? It also has this Mini-Link and might be the one step further in terms of stability.

    Don´t get me wrong, I believe that the RUNE is a very capable bike, and I am in the Banshee forum, but I am still not convinced that it is in another class than Nomad, Covert or Reign X. Therefor I searched some opinions about RUNE/Wildcard. But nobody wants to say a good word about the wildcard. At least not for agressive AM-riding...

  14. #14
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    As a Rune owner for the last 16 months here's my tuppence worth.

    I too was undecided as to which Banshee frame (Mythic for us in the UK) was right for me, Spitty or Rune in my case, never mind all the other manufacturers I was considering.
    Because of storage space limitations at home this would need to be my one "do it all" bike and I took a LONG time making my mind up.
    Buying a new frame/bike is very subjective, I'm sure some of the factors that influenced my decision would be considered nuts by others....thats same for all of us tho.
    I demoed a Nomad and a Covert on the same day, really enjoyed them both but I couldn't say I would be more inclined to spend my hard earned on one over the other - a couple of hours on each was enough for me to know I'd be happy with either of them.
    I'm sure that all frame designers knowledge of kinematics and modern suspension designs means you would find it almost impossible to find a bad frame at this price point.
    Why did I choose Banshee.........The Banshee community!
    From the wise words of wisdom from the usual suspects on here, FM, Dunerinaz et al, to Jay and Keith at Banshee HQ there's a real passion to make sure we all get the most out of our trail time.
    The UK distributors were really cool too, although they didn't carry demo bikes, Rob at Freeborn hooked me up with a Rune owner who was kind enough to let me have quick spin on his pride and joy.

    My spec is similar to yours in the original post apart from a DHX coil, I ride similar trails to you plus a bit of shuttling and I couldn't be happier.

  15. #15
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalkhoffpink View Post
    From your opinions it seems clear to me, that the wildcard is not the right alternative for the RUNE. Maybe the Intense UZZI would be a choice???? It also has this Mini-Link and might be the one step further in terms of stability.

    Don´t get me wrong, I believe that the RUNE is a very capable bike, and I am in the Banshee forum, but I am still not convinced that it is in another class than Nomad, Covert or Reign X. Therefor I searched some opinions about RUNE/Wildcard. But nobody wants to say a good word about the wildcard. At least not for agressive AM-riding...
    I'm sure the wildcard is great- I've not ridden one personally.
    Wildcard chainstays are a full 1/2" shorter than the Rune, and the wheelbase is 3/4 shorter. The geometry & suspension are optimized for slopestyle, trick jumps, and it's probably a ripping 4x bike too. The rune has more AM geometry.

    So why get a Rune? For me a quality test ride sold the bike. I rode a lot of other bikes around the same time( including a nomad, endorphin, remedy & reign) and had a perfectly fine Turner RFX already, but the Rune test ride really made an impression. The suspension feel, lateral stiffness, geometry and feature set all stood out.

    Insidedge, cool point about the community here. Keith & Jay listen to the riders and keep in touch here, which is very cool.

  16. #16
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    My 2...

    I use my Wildcard mostly for AM and light FR. I even raced a couple of times XC/Marathon races with it (senior / amateur, of course...got forth place)
    The wildcard can handle climbing very well, but it really shines when you point it downwards
    Considering weight, it is not the lightest bike you can find, but it has better "Fun to Kg." ratio than most bikes I know.
    I've tried the Rune and i don't have anything bad to say about it, I just like my Wildcard more.
    I am 1.82 cm and ride a medium Wildcard and it fits perfectly

  17. #17
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    I ride a Rune here in Moab almost exclusively. Right now, I think i'm at ~33lbs with DHX KS post, 2.5 DHF tires (very heavy but awesome), mallets blah blah blah. I don't have an angleset but am think about getting one for more slacky goodness. But really, have no problem with the rocky steepness that is Moab.

    As for pedal feedback, I rune a single ring 32T with a custom 36T as my biggest in back. On the super chunk uphill I CAN feel the pedal feedback a bit but, really, it's a non issue. You will not feel it on smooth or even sort-of-rough terrain even in that gear combo.

    I really wouldn't want to pedal anything much heavier then what I got right now - at least not for long rides. If it were me, i'd build myself a FM-Rune™ No really, Coil shock, sturdy wheels (i'd argue you could go flows/819's with nice tires) and fork of your choice. The float is awesome, but maybe coil for even more DH-ness. THe lyrik will get you 170mm or step right up to 180mm

  18. #18
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    I have been running a Lyrik RC2 DH coil 170 with an Elka Stage 5. This combo is tits. Coming off of a Float and a DHX air the difference is night and day. The bike (with a -1.5) angle set installed is just planted on the trail. A set of low rise bars to keep the front end down.

    I ride this bike on everything from free ride trails to normal single track. It slays both. Climbing is not an issue so long as you are a smooth rider. Tech climbing even with the chain growth is a non issue.

    I would say get a Rune and two wheel sets. A heavy duty one for FR days and a lightweight set for everything else.




  19. #19
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    another Rune owner with a vote for the Rune. i highly suggest getting an headangle reducer headset (check out works components; i cant recommend the cc angleset because of creaking issue)

    getting the angleset really made the bike perform for me: in the air, dh, everthing. now im itching to try a coil shock on it

  20. #20
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    at 6'2" i can't see how you're going to be able to climb comfortably on even a size L wildcard, which sports a 16" seat tube. i have a friend who is 6' and can't get full extension even with a 410mm thomson at full height. great bike, fun and burly but not meant for long climbs

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomforeal View Post
    at 6'2" i can't see how you're going to be able to climb comfortably on even a size L wildcard, which sports a 16" seat tube. i have a friend who is 6' and can't get full extension even with a 410mm thomson at full height. great bike, fun and burly but not meant for long climbs
    I saw the seatpost problem too, until I made a simple calculation with my Remedy:

    1. The Remedy seattube is about 18.5" long
    2. My seatpost adds fully extended for XC rides 7.8"
    3. That makes a total of 26.3"

    4. The Wildcard seattube is about 16" long
    5. Plus a standard Thomson 16.1" would result in 32.1" length

    Even if I had to push the Thomson 5.5" into the seattube for proper hold there are 26.6" left, what is nearly the size of the Remedy. So where is the problem?

    Or is my calculation wrong?

  22. #22
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    My thoughts as a Wildcard-Rider ...

    Hi kalkhoffpink,

    first, I never have ridden a Rune, so my thoughts are purely theoretical ...
    second, it all depends on what and where you ride mainly, and how you like your Bike to behave to suit your riding ...

    Somehow this is a difficult decision because Rune and Wildcard do have some strong overlap:
    Both are great pedallers, have great Geometry for climbing and decending. Both are not the lightest frames, but are stiff and very strong built to take abuse. As far as I know both share a lot of the same Tubing, so there might be no real difference in strength. Both Frames feature proven Standards like OnePointFive, ISCG 05, 68/73mm BB, 135 mm Rear Axle, no fancy gimmicks like X-12 or Giants new Headtube-Standard. Both can be built up very versatile and both do have a dialled-in Suspension-System, but this is what makes them completely different Bikes, next to some Geometry-Numbers ...

    It is said that the Rune offers very plush, active and bottomless Suspension, with a good amount of progression to prevent bottoming. In combination with its given Geo the Rune can take all from all Day AM with long Climbs to wild DH. The majority of Rune-Riders here on mtbr.com went with 1,5 deg or 2 deg Angle-Sets to slacken the Headangle, slightly lowering the BB-Hight and seem to love that even more, especially for decending.
    My personal downside (in theory) on the Rune might be the Pedal-Feedback in the 22-Tooth-Ring, bur apart from that I truly believe the Rune is a Killer-Ride!

    The Wildcard has a very interesting Geometry that I like so much: shortish Chainstays, very low and longer Toptube than the average, not too low BB, steep Seattube and a nice in-between Headangle results in a great centered Position over the Bike, with lots of Power on the Front, for Pedalling and overall Handling, even for longer Climbs.
    The Suspension is simple at first sight, but is lively, effective and subtle, with lots of progression to give a different bottomless feel. Overall firm which makes it easy to jump off or drop, but needs more work on gnarly DH-Runs. Close to no bob, no Pedal-Feedback, no Brake-Jack, just a little amount of Brake-Squat while Breaking. All in all a very playfull Freerider in every aspect.
    My personal downsides on the Wildcard are:
    1) Frame could be a bit lighter, especially the rear seems a bit overbuilt, but is the stiffest Frame I have ever owned - unbreakable and long lasting.
    2) I would like to have changeable Travel without affecting the Geometry, in the 6,5" the Angles/BB are too steep/high and would prefer changeable Chainstay-Length instead while keeping the Angles the same.

    Watch my Gallery - I use my Wildcard as my Do-it-All-Bike, built to climb, jump and decend. My area of ​​use is the same like yours and since I have the Wildcard there is no need for me to change. I also went with a Angle-Set to lower and slacken it and would suggest it on both Wildcard and Rune - once you have enjoyed that low & slack-thing you will never look back.
    I am pretty much sure you will not loose any Performance or downhill fun with a Rune, just the opposite!
    For the uphill comfort with the Wildcard you have to make one single compromise: You will need a long Seatpost and even then you maybe will not have the ideal Pedalling-Position.

    Greetings from Cologne, Germany
    NoStyle

    Ps:
    1) The reason I went with the Wildcard instead of the Rune was that I wanted a playfull, quick and snappy Ride, with easy and effective NoBrainer-Suspension. Lots of moderate Jumps around my area, lots of sharp quick changing Up- and Downhills, lots of Singletrails to blast through, but nothing too gnarly which requires 6 or 7 inches of Plushness. I won´t be unhappy owning a Rune instead.
    2) Banshee is a great Company and so is its community
    Last edited by NoStyle; 11-01-2011 at 10:22 AM.

  23. #23
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    So, I'll throw down another vote for the wildcard. I've been riding mine for pretty much everything (some urban, XC, light FR/DH). I think this bike is an absolute blast. It's super stiff and snappy. With the build I have on it, its a porky beast right now, but it still climbs better than my previous bike (FSR stumpjumper).

    As far as the Rune vs Wildcard deal, I went Wildcard for its geometry. I liked the lower standover height (nothing worse than bailing and getting your balls pinched) and the stability of it. This thing shines when you get it in slow technical rocky sections. The bike just feels so naturally balanced and its very easy to keep a line.

    As for the 5" and 6.5" travel adjustments, they're nice, nothing too much to get worked up about. I really wished that this bike was a 6-7" rear, but whatever. I run it in the 5" and 6.5" mode, just depending on what I'm doing. The suspension works great with jumps lines and I find that it eats up the gnar fairly well in either setting. I run a 22 ring for the granny and it climbs very well, no feedback. The pedal bob is minimal on the bike, its very easy to keep traction going up hill.

    I have never ridden a Rune, so I can't do a side by side comparison, but they are both capable bikes. I'd side with the wildcard if you are a fan of shorter bikes, like the low standover, and/or plan on some more serious freeride.

    And for the people that say that the wildcard is too compact, I'm 5'11" and ride a medium with a 50mm stem. This thing fits like a glove. It works very well for those of us with a long torso and shorter legs.

    And I know that this is a banshee forum, but since you came from trek have you considered the Scratch?
    Just another redneck with a bike

  24. #24
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    One last thing, note the lack of threads in this forum about bearings on the wildcard
    Just another redneck with a bike

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlockinz View Post
    One last thing, note the lack of threads in this forum about bearings on the wildcard
    hey, that one was below the belt!

    i think of the wildcard as sitting more squarely in the freeride category, but of course, the only one i rode had a totem, elka, saint, etc... however, that build seemed to suit the bike well

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