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Thread: rune questions

  1. #1
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    rune questions

    Just sold my bike and going to build a rune up for all mountain riding. Was going to get the isx 6 shock and pair it with a fox 36 float rc2. I had read somewhere on the numerous rune threads about the fork clearance being an issue. Is this still the case? I was planning on running k9 reducer cups if that makes a difference. Also is there any issue with the shock hitting the seat tube at full extension or top out? Looks very close but sometimes pictures can be decieving. Also is there much issue running a double with a bash guard with the chain line?

    Thanks in advance cant wait to get all my parts in.

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    FM
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    Good call!
    No issues with downtube clearance using a fox 36 and the K9 cups (or any integrated headset)
    No interference between the shock eyelet and seat tube with my Elka. I suppose different shock eyelets might be a different story, space is kinda tight there.
    Chainline- depends on a few things- the cranks (specifically the granny gear and chainring bolt-head thickness) and of course the chainguide used. I am running SLX double cranks with an aftermarket sugino 26t, and an E13 DRS chainguide. The chainline is fine, but the SLX double-specific derailuer sometimes struggles to push the chain up to the bigger chainring when using certain cogs in back. I think the 3-ring front derailuer might work better. The chainline itself seems fine though, seems like just a front der. issue. I may swap it out if it becomes an issue, but so far it works acceptably, but not awesome.

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    I don't think anybody has had any issues with shock clearance for the ISX. When I tried a DHX coil, it would barely touch the seat tube on at top out.

    My bike has Race Face Deus cranks with 24-36-bash and seems fine. I was going to run the E13 DRS guide, but after shortening my chain some and adjusting the front derailleur (Sram) a bit more, I hardly drop the chain at all. When I have, it's usually been the type where I can pedal it back around to the big ring in half a turn, or so.
    I might get around to installing the chain guide eventually to see if it makes for less clatter, but I would have to cut a bit of the guide to clear the lower linkage so I haven't been too motivated.

    Good luck with your build, it's a fun ride,

    crazyhouse

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    good to hear on the fork clearance. Im planning on running xt cranks and dont plan on running a guide at this time. Ill probably change to a 26 tooth granny as I have read on numerous ones that it cuts down on the bob when you do have to ride in it. Ill be running either an xt or x9 triple front derailure thats limited to two so i think that will solve the problem of pushing the chain far enough. Im pretty sure thats a product of the double on your set up since the double is designed for a different spacing than a triple. I cant wait to get mine built up I sold my bike to build this one so ill be dying to ride until I can afford to build it up. I also am waiting to hear back from Chromag on their bar and stem I think it was your build I saw the parts on. I gotta figure out what size frame to get firs tthough so I need to run to the bike shop in the next week or so and get on a sizing machine and figure out what top tube im going to get

    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Good call!
    No issues with downtube clearance using a fox 36 and the K9 cups (or any integrated headset)
    No interference between the shock eyelet and seat tube with my Elka. I suppose different shock eyelets might be a different story, space is kinda tight there.
    Chainline- depends on a few things- the cranks (specifically the granny gear and chainring bolt-head thickness) and of course the chainguide used. I am running SLX double cranks with an aftermarket sugino 26t, and an E13 DRS chainguide. The chainline is fine, but the SLX double-specific derailuer sometimes struggles to push the chain up to the bigger chainring when using certain cogs in back. I think the 3-ring front derailuer might work better. The chainline itself seems fine though, seems like just a front der. issue. I may swap it out if it becomes an issue, but so far it works acceptably, but not awesome.

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    cool good to hear. I cant wait to get it going it looks like a sick ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyhouse_5
    I don't think anybody has had any issues with shock clearance for the ISX. When I tried a DHX coil, it would barely touch the seat tube on at top out.

    My bike has Race Face Deus cranks with 24-36-bash and seems fine. I was going to run the E13 DRS guide, but after shortening my chain some and adjusting the front derailleur (Sram) a bit more, I hardly drop the chain at all. When I have, it's usually been the type where I can pedal it back around to the big ring in half a turn, or so.
    I might get around to installing the chain guide eventually to see if it makes for less clatter, but I would have to cut a bit of the guide to clear the lower linkage so I haven't been too motivated.

    Good luck with your build, it's a fun ride,

    crazyhouse

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    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by p3ripperfw
    I gotta figure out what size frame to get firs tthough so I need to run to the bike shop in the next week or so and get on a sizing machine and figure out what top tube im going to get
    Cool- how tall are you, maybe some folks here who are similar sized can offer some sizing advice. I am always way of shop fittings (used to do them for a shop) as a triathlete might put you on a much bigger bike than a dirt jumper!

    On the chainline, here's something I noticed. The stock shimano 22t rings are counter-sunk for the chainring bolts. The steel sugino 26t I got wasn't countersunk, and thicker too, so that pushed the bolt heads inboard 2mm? this is where I hit rubbing with the chainguide, which forced me to add BB spacers and push my chainline out.

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    I hear ya on the sizing but Ive worked in shops for about 6 years and will know what size fits me. Problem Im running into is ive never built myself an all mountain bike like this that will have a short stem set up and I dont want to get a small and have my knees right near the bars or have a long stem and I dont want to get a medium and be too stretched out or too much stand over. Thats why I want to get on a fitter to measure out each size before I decide. This bike will be my only ride so thats why im building something i can do light freeride with as well as pedal xc. Here in Texas we dont have alot of the mountains and things like the north but we do have some small freeride trails. Plus I want to be able to take the bike to some of the mountains from time to time so I need something that will do both.

    Im 5'6"-5'7" by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by p3ripperfw

    Im 5'6"-5'7" by the way.
    I am about your height (5ī6"), and ride a small with a 50mm stem; it feels great. I couldīve gone with a medium though. Keith told me to go small for a flickable (sp?) bike, and medium for a more efficient pedaling bike. I guess it all depends of what is your priority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    ...es como acomodarte los calzones, seguro lo puede hacer alguien pero es mejor que lo haga uno mismo

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    Cool ill have to check it out and see which I like better

    Quote Originally Posted by ritopc
    I am about your height (5ī6"), and ride a small with a 50mm stem; it feels great. I couldīve gone with a medium though. Keith told me to go small for a flickable (sp?) bike, and medium for a more efficient pedaling bike. I guess it all depends of what is your priority.

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    How do you guys think this bike would do with a rockshox revelation 150mm fork on it

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    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by p3ripperfw
    I hear ya on the sizing but Ive worked in shops for about 6 years and will know what size fits me.
    I felt the same way, I also worked in shops for 6 years or so, including for small custom steel builder, where I did a lot of fittings. AM bikes break the rules IMHO. I prefer a small fitting bike for AM/FR use. I have proven to myself that the best fix for a bike that feels too small is just putting in some road miles and building more core strength. But yeah it sounds like you are right on the line, you could probably go small or medium. Keep that slack seat angle in mind, the more exposed post you run the longer the top tube feels. Just my .02c

    rev 150 would be good with an taller external headset, or the -2 degree k9's (otherwise it might be a bit steep?). If you are running -1d K9 cups or a regular integrated headset I would look for a 545mm a2c fork like a fox 36 or lyric.

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    I think your the perfect person to help me with this.....would I be looking to add or take away degrees? I understand how it does it but with a 150 fork would I be looking to slacken the headtube since the fork will effectively steepen the headangle? I dont want the bike to get too slack as in Texas we have lots of tight switchbacks in the xc trails and I still want to be able to turn.......I wasnt sure if you could run extermal headsets in the k9 cups but I guess that answered my question

    I ordered my wheels today mavic crossmax sx's. I figured with the revelation at around 4 pounds I could hit the 30 pound mark and have a very decent all mountain set up.

    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    I felt the same way, I also worked in shops for 6 years or so, including for small custom steel builder, where I did a lot of fittings. AM bikes break the rules IMHO. I prefer a small fitting bike for AM/FR use. I have proven to myself that the best fix for a bike that feels too small is just putting in some road miles and building more core strength. But yeah it sounds like you are right on the line, you could probably go small or medium. Keep that slack seat angle in mind, the more exposed post you run the longer the top tube feels. Just my .02c

    rev 150 would be good with an taller external headset, or the -2 degree k9's (otherwise it might be a bit steep?). If you are running -1d K9 cups or a regular integrated headset I would look for a 545mm a2c fork like a fox 36 or lyric.

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    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by p3ripperfw
    I think your the perfect person to help me with this.....would I be looking to add or take away degrees? I understand how it does it but with a 150 fork would I be looking to slacken the headtube since the fork will effectively steepen the headangle?
    exactly...
    Haha.. well again just my crazy opinions, so take 'em with a grain of salt.

    I believe the published rune head angle of 67degrees is based on a fork length of 545mm with an external headset. a 150mm travel fork would steepen (add) about 1 degree to that, so K9 cups would be a good idea to bring the head angle back to around 67. That combo would give you a lower BB too.

    Personally I would rather have the 545mm length fork (like a 160mm fox 36 or lyric) just for the bigger stanchions. The rune frame is very stiff so I'd look for the fork to compliment that. If you don't have a ton of steep DH then an integral headset would probably be nice for tight & twisty XC stuff (might put your head angle around 67.5)

    I had another great ride on my Rune tonight, it's an incredible bike... you will be stoked.

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    yeah cool.....might have to shell out the extra few hundred dollars and just get the fox 36 with no angle cups. I think it will be fine for what Im going to be doing on the bike....could always run angle cups if I was going to be riding some steeper terrain.

    Thanks for the heads up

    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    exactly...
    Haha.. well again just my crazy opinions, so take 'em with a grain of salt.

    I believe the published rune head angle of 67degrees is based on a fork length of 545mm with an external headset. a 150mm travel fork would steepen (add) about 1 degree to that, so K9 cups would be a good idea to bring the head angle back to around 67. That combo would give you a lower BB too.

    Personally I would rather have the 545mm length fork (like a 160mm fox 36 or lyric) just for the bigger stanchions. The rune frame is very stiff so I'd look for the fork to compliment that. If you don't have a ton of steep DH then an integral headset would probably be nice for tight & twisty XC stuff (might put your head angle around 67.5)

    I had another great ride on my Rune tonight, it's an incredible bike... you will be stoked.

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    I had a little seat tube contact on my ISX-6 when I first got the bike...but I just loosened both of the eyelet bolts..sat on the bike and then tightened them up....and no problem since then.

    I could not put on a stinger on my Rune...but it does not need it, can't ever remember dropping my chain.

    I only notice any pedal feedback when I was running a 22t granny...I run a 24 now and it works just great.

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    Cool good to know. I plan on just running a double set up with a saint bash guard. Should be a pretty good set up

    Quote Originally Posted by mudpuppy
    I had a little seat tube contact on my ISX-6 when I first got the bike...but I just loosened both of the eyelet bolts..sat on the bike and then tightened them up....and no problem since then.

    I could not put on a stinger on my Rune...but it does not need it, can't ever remember dropping my chain.

    I only notice any pedal feedback when I was running a 22t granny...I run a 24 now and it works just great.

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    "I had a little seat tube contact on my ISX-6 when I first got the bike...but I just loosened both of the eyelet bolts..sat on the bike and then tightened them up....and no problem since then".

    Thanks for the great tip with the ISX! I just got one for the Rune and ran it for the first time a few days ago. Got everything set-up pretty good with correct sag, BO, compression, etc and had noticed some seat tube rub the other night. Thought I was imagining things since I was running only 25%.sag with a good amount of air in the piggy back (170psi) and few clicks of HSC and LSC.

    Will try this and see. Does it matter if you are in full biker gear weight, or can one just hop on and do this? And can you add or remove air from the piggy back reservoir while there is already proper air in the main canister or do you have to remove all air in main canister before setting the piggy back like on initial set-up?

    Thanks again!
    Ride On!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mudpuppy
    I had a little seat tube contact on my ISX-6 when I first got the bike...but I just loosened both of the eyelet bolts..sat on the bike and then tightened them up....and no problem since then.

    I could not put on a stinger on my Rune...but it does not need it, can't ever remember dropping my chain.

    I only notice any pedal feedback when I was running a 22t granny...I run a 24 now and it works just great.
    how come you couldn't put a stinger on? i'm building my rune and have a stinger on order, i'll be using an isg05 version of course.

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    From what I understand some cranks sit closer to the bbshell and so it just can not fit...I run Atlas cranks and there was just enough room between the iscg tabs and the crank bolts fit the guide...it hit no matter what. I had one of granny ring bolts come out a little bit and that made marks on my iscg tabs...so it's tight. So if you are running atlas it's a no go...but other cranks do work....from what I hear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgusta
    Does it matter if you are in full biker gear weight, or can one just hop on and do this? And can you add or remove air from the piggy back reservoir while there is already proper air in the main canister or do you have to remove all air in main canister before setting the piggy back like on initial set-up?

    Thanks again!
    I don't think it does...all I wanted to do was take up that tiny bit of length that was making it tap on the seat tube....and I guess there was enough play when I loosened the bolts that when I tightened it back down it was all good, still gets super close...but I hear no more little ping...ping when riding...

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    dft
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudpuppy
    From what I understand some cranks sit closer to the bbshell and so it just can not fit...I run Atlas cranks and there was just enough room between the iscg tabs and the crank bolts fit the guide...it hit no matter what. I had one of granny ring bolts come out a little bit and that made marks on my iscg tabs...so it's tight. So if you are running atlas it's a no go...but other cranks do work....from what I hear.
    ok. i got slx cranks and i'm pretty sure they will work. it comes with 3 BB spacers also so that gives soem flexibility.
    thanks

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    Here's some pictures from an older thread of clearances between the small chainring and bottom bracket for the use of a guide.

    Rune with Gamet p20

    crazyhouse

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgusta
    And can you add or remove air from the piggy back reservoir while there is already proper air in the main canister or do you have to remove all air in main canister before setting the piggy back like on initial set-up?

    Thanks again!
    Dunno if this is related to your question but FWIW, the evolver piggyback and main spring interact with each other. If you add pressure to one side, you have to remove air from the other to achieve the same SAG. As far as I understand, putting air on the piggiback effects on both preload and comprension damping. Air on the main chamber effects on spring rate. These characteristics coupled with the BO volume and compression adjustments is what gives the ISX a huge range of adjustment. You can play with compression curves a lot, either making them more progressive or linear, you can also offset this curves (with some effects on compression adjustment ranges), and adjust BO curves. These tunability is what also makes this shock hard to tune up at times. Once is dialled, the shock performs beautifully.

    For example, you can achieve the same SAG using lower presures on the main spring, and higher pressure the PB than using higher presures with the main spring and lower with the piggy back. though you īd have same SAg the shock will perform very different.

    When i was running the ISX, I used to use 70psi on the piggy back and adjusted main spring form there to correct SAG. and it worked good for me. Other rides also liked this set up with lower pressures in the piggyback. However, other riders report good results using higher psi (150 or so) in the PB and adjusting main spring from there.

    What I would do is trying both setups, and see which one I like the most; put higher pressure on the PB, adjust SAG and ride, then lower the pressure on the piggybag and adjust SAG via spring rate and ride. You will see very different characteristics on the shock. You would then have a good idea on how the piggy back effects on the shock performance and you could tune from there according to your riding and terrain.


    Hope it helps you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    ...es como acomodarte los calzones, seguro lo puede hacer alguien pero es mejor que lo haga uno mismo

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    Any body using a flush 1.5 to 1 1/8 headset with a lyrik or fox 36, Wll it clear the Rune downtube? I am runnig a Cane Creek traditional 1,5 with a float 36 set to 150mm and love the quiker steering, But i was thinking of running a flush mount and 1 1/8 fork set at 160mm or purhaps the lyrik 170mm DH.

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ritopc
    Dunno if this is related to your question but FWIW, the evolver piggyback and main spring interact with each other. If you add pressure to one side, you have to remove air from the other to achieve the same SAG. As far as I understand, putting air on the piggiback effects on both preload and comprension damping. Air on the main chamber effects on spring rate. These characteristics coupled with the BO volume and compression adjustments is what gives the ISX a huge range of adjustment. You can play with compression curves a lot, either making them more progressive or linear, you can also offset this curves (with some effects on compression adjustment ranges), and adjust BO curves. These tunability is what also makes this shock hard to tune up at times. Once is dialled, the shock performs beautifully.

    For example, you can achieve the same SAG using lower presures on the main spring, and higher pressure the PB than using higher presures with the main spring and lower with the piggy back. though you īd have same SAg the shock will perform very different.

    When i was running the ISX, I used to use 70psi on the piggy back and adjusted main spring form there to correct SAG. and it worked good for me. Other rides also liked this set up with lower pressures in the piggyback. However, other riders report good results using higher psi (150 or so) in the PB and adjusting main spring from there.

    What I would do is trying both setups, and see which one I like the most; put higher pressure on the PB, adjust SAG and ride, then lower the pressure on the piggybag and adjust SAG via spring rate and ride. You will see very different characteristics on the shock. You would then have a good idea on how the piggy back effects on the shock performance and you could tune from there according to your riding and terrain.


    Hope it helps you.
    Yeah thats helpful, thanks for differentiating to two chambers on how it affects the performance of the shock, makes sense.

    But, was just wondering if adjusting the PB while there is air in the main canister (MC) will harm or damage the shock? Manitou suggests (based on the limited info in shock manual) you should always dial in the pressure of the PB first, then MC secondly for sag. Based on this, I am curious if one has to remove all the air out of the MC completely before making any air adjustments to the PB after the settings are already set-up initially?

    Also, curious about the air leakage from the pump. When setting the PB with pump, removing pump nozzle completely and then re-attaching, there is about a 40psi loss or difference in PB psi from the first adjustment. Is this all air loss in pump only or in PB as well? When I do the MC for sag, there is only a 10psi differential when removing pump nozzle and re-inserting.

    Thanks for the help, hoping to get out on the new shock again today, I can tell it needs to be broken in some more, but liking it better than the RP23 it replaced so far.
    Ride On!

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