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  1. #1
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    Rune bushings (again)

    After reading the other threads regarding torque specs and how they should now be less then Banshee initially recommend, I took everything apart on my Rune tonight to inspect the bushings and check frame wear. I was somewhat surprised to see early wear on the inside of the chainstays and pivot link. The wear is less than the thickness of the bushing flange, but I imagine it's only going to get worse. Thankfully, I've been riding my Paradox most of the time, because I'm sure it would have been much worse. My frame's only 2 years old.

    Anyway, I was thinking of running the pivots sans grease. Good idea? I'll also be lowering the torque and using blue loctite on the thread bolts.
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  2. #2
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    It was NOT reccomended by banshee to run your pivots dry. That being said, I have noticed a that quite few people that are NOT having problems with pivots ARE in fact running thier pivots dry, more due to just not knowing or caring otherwise, I would suspect so, I dunno. I rode a titus motolite for years without doing anything. Worked awesome til the day I sold it.

  3. #3
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    Lithium grease, lock-tite on clean threads, and no more than 1/4 turn past finger-tight!

  4. #4
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    What is the torque value of "finger tight +1/4 turn" anyways? I have found if I run 3Nm or less torque, the pivot bolts will loosen eventually, even with blue locktite and clean threads.
    Ride On!

  5. #5
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    I have yet to do anything to my bushings and I goth it last November. Still rides like a dream! HOLLA!!!

  6. #6
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    Yeah mine have been running smooth & silent since I did the pivot maintenance post back in late October. Had a grea ride on mine recently and was amazed at how smooth and quiet they were running!

    I believe over-tightening, either by owners, shops/distributors, or from the factory, is behind most of the pivot issues people have had. Once the pivot surfaces have worn down due to being over-tightened, people try to adjust the play out by.....over-tightening some more! then things probably go south very quickly.

    Keith has mentioned that the pivot bolts should only be used to hold things in place, not to pre-load the pivots or bushings at all.

    I would think any play in the system would break a lock-tite bond. There are some situations I don't trust torque wrenches, particularly when the torque values are super low. I use about the same amount of torque I put on the 2.5mm allens that hold my disc brake pads in place. "2-finger tight"! I did clean all threads with denatured alcohol, and let the bike sit for 24hrs so the locktite could dry.

    I haven't had any play in my system, but it seems like finding or creating some thin nylon or plastic washers (old bushing flanges or yogurt cups might work) to take up the play, would be a better solution than over-tightening. If you think about a clevis-pivot, over-tightening only closes one side of the opening, which would create uneven loads on the bushing. Using a thin plastic or iglide washer instead, would spread the loads out evenly, plus it would wear before aluminum (i.e. frame pivot surface.) This is the way Straitline does their bushing system, I've got straitline pedals with something like 5 years of use on them, and there's no wear beyond the bushings which I replace every year or so. Their system does not allow the user to create any preload on the bushings.
    Last edited by FM; 09-14-2011 at 09:44 AM.

  7. #7
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    That's all great in theory, but let's take a look at the true fact of the matter:

    *Initiall torque specs with listed as 5-6nm. Yet "finger tight" is recommended? The Rune is a burely bike that require's finger tight torque specs? Where is this bit of highly important information listed? MTBR forum posts do not count IMO.

    *I've taken care of my Rune since day one. However, my pivots have always been overtightend and now I have pivot wear to deal with. My guess is blue loctite won't work for me at this point and as you point out FM, this will only head south from here.
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  8. #8
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuLz View Post
    MTBR forum posts do not count IMO.
    Then my replies are wasted time?

    Quote Originally Posted by RuLz View Post
    *Initiall torque specs with listed as 5-6nm. Yet "finger tight" is recommended? The Rune is a burely bike that require's finger tight torque specs? Where is this bit of highly important information listed?

    Here you go-
    and you are correct with the initial torque specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    All pivot bolts should have blue loctite on the threads to stop them coming loose. They are not required structurally, their only purpose is to stop the axles from falling out really.
    My .02c here, most consumer torque wrenches aren't accurate at all below 15nm. By the time you've got a reading on most torque wrenches, you've over-tightened. Understanding what the bolts actually do (simply hold things in place) is more important.

    Don't stress on your frame, just don't continue to over-tighten. I would rebuild, and if there is slop, make some washers out of the old bushings or something else (yogurt cups?) to take slop out of the pivot so the system is slop-free and pivot bolts are snugged just past finger tight.

    I could be wrong on all this, but I've had no issues with my pivots......

    By the way, I have one of Dunierinaz's killer grease-purge fittings if you want to try that.

  9. #9
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    I'm not too stressed. My Rune's been solid (due to over-tightening) since day one. I'm thankful for the Banshee MTBR community because without it, who knows? But it's never been set up properly and is a continuous work in progress. Now that I'm educated, it might be too late or require more of my precious time wrenching on a bike that I just want to ride. Know what I'm saying?

    Moving forward, I'd like a new a new rear end and a linkage plate to set things straight. Is that too much to ask for?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Then my replies are wasted time?



    Here you go-
    and you are correct with the initial torque specs.



    My .02c here, most consumer torque wrenches aren't accurate at all below 15nm. By the time you've got a reading on most torque wrenches, you've over-tightened. Understanding what the bolts actually do (simply hold things in place) is more important.

    Don't stress on your frame, just don't continue to over-tighten. I would rebuild, and if there is slop, make some washers out of the old bushings or something else (yogurt cups?) to take slop out of the pivot so the system is slop-free and pivot bolts are snugged just past finger tight.


    I could be wrong on all this, but I've had no issues with my pivots......

    By the way, I have one of Dunierinaz's killer grease-purge fittings if you want to try that.

    as much of a fan of the company and the ride of my spitty and rune, "finger tight + 1/4 turn is unacceptable as a torque recommendation imho. i love the bikes. love how well banshee has responded on the forums but even 5nm as a torque spec is too low for a pivot application.

    this is a design flaw plain and simple. leaving it up to the consumer to play with torque settings is no good. i own an excellent very expensive and well calibrated torque wrench. i perform regular maintenance and yet i am now experiencing wear on my rune. 5nm is almost nothing. my turners ran a much higher torque spec but were designed so that over-tightening did not lead to frame wear.

    right now as the design of the bushing system sits i would not recommend a rune or spitfire to a friend as much as i love how they ride. they are cheaper frames cost wise compared to some brands but far from cheap. they cost too much to be considered a value and disposable after a year or two's use. i would hesitate to sell it to anyone knowing it's basically a ticking time bomb. too many people are experiencing wear. it's not a one off and the defense from some owners that it's down to people not maintaining them properly is pure bs as people have followed the recommended torque settings from banshee and still had issues. so what if some have not, too many have imho.

    i stand by what i've said before, this will be my last banshee purchase unless banshee stepped up and offered an updated design to current owners at cost. otherwise i'll be looking at yeti, turner, ibis or a myriad of other offerings currently on the market that don't have design issues.

    i would love to hear a response from keith on the issue. finger tight plus a little bit is hardly a well engineered bit of technical advice.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    "finger tight + 1/4 turn is unacceptable as a torque recommendation imho. i love the bikes. love how well banshee has responded on the forums but even 5nm as a torque spec is too low for a pivot application.
    .................................................. .................................................. ....
    finger tight plus a little bit is hardly a well engineered bit of technical advice.
    Fair enough, I do not disagree.
    Seriously... I weigh my coffee beans and time my espresso shots,every morning.
    Ideally, there should be a published, quantifiable torque setting that the pivots have been tested and proven to work correctly at (and perhaps it is 5nm as posted by Keith).

    However- One of the main points I was getting at; very few people have access to a torque wrench that accurately reads 5nm. With most torque wrenches, which often start at 5nm, that's like trying to use the speedometer on your car to pace somebody crawling at .5 mile per hour. Or weighing those new handlebars with a bathroom scale. By the time you get a reading of 5nm, it's actually way too tight.... and then you get premature pivot wear.

    5nm = 44 inch pounds.
    That's the minimum torque value park tools suggests for derailuer cable pinch bolts, hydraulic hose fittings and cantilever brake pad bolts.
    So it's really not surprising that most people (even those who own torque wrenches) have inadvertently over-tightened their pivot bolts.


    IMO- publishing the torque spec in inch-pounds would be a good idea, as it would discourage people from using and trusting a torque wrench that was designed to operate at much higher values.....
    Last edited by FM; 09-14-2011 at 01:42 PM.

  12. #12
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    FM also has a tape measure in his closet to measure his waist so he picks the right pair of underwear every morning.
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  13. #13
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by juice View Post
    FM also has a tape measure in his closet to measure his waist so he picks the right pair of underwear every morning.
    Dude, how dare you poke around in my closet. Have been wondering where my tape measurer went.

    However, the tape measurer has not been used for underwear. I have a scale for that- when they hit .5lbs... it's time for a fresh pair.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Fair enough, I do not disagree.


    5nm = 44 inch pounds.
    That's the minimum torque value park tools suggests for derailuer cable pinch bolts, hydraulic hose fittings and cantilever brake pad bolts.
    So it's really not surprising that most people (even those who own torque wrenches) have inadvertently over-tightened their pivot bolts.


    IMO- publishing the torque spec in inch-pounds would be a good idea, as it would discourage people from using and trusting a torque wrench that was designed to operate at much higher values.....
    that's way too low a torque for a main pivot bolt. that's the design flaw imo. the pivots see a lot of stress, tightening that low with that size a bolt is under torqued. relying on blue locktight to keep it tight is not an answer. using a torque spec that low is retarded on a main pivot bolt imo. just too low, if you can't get a real measurement on a pivot bolt because its so loose that's a problem. a serious one

    locktight keeps bolts from vibrating loose, not as a torque aid. it's a poor design, no other answer. look at the bolts listed on parks site. they are all a lot smaller than the main pivot bolt on the banshees. turners bushings use around the same bolt size as the banshee bolt and their spec is a lot higher, measured in foot/pounds, 11ft/pds for their main pivot bolts. that's a huge difference and one reason you see turner pivots last for years with minimal maintenance. years

  15. #15
    FM
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    There is a big difference in the design though; the bolt heads are load bearing on Turners, the pivot axles do not extend past the frame into the rockers.
    On the banshee design, the axle goes through the rocker, so the loads rest on the axle, not the bolt head. So the fastener can be smaller and use lower torque values as it's not load bearing.

    Not debating which is a better design, just pointing out they aren't really so similar, despite both using Igus bushings.

    What do you think of the Chris King fun bolts- 12mm bolt replacing a QR?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    There is a big difference in the design though; the bolt heads are load bearing on Turners, the pivot axles do not extend past the frame into the rockers.
    On the banshee design, the axle goes through the rocker, so the loads rest on the axle, not the bolt head. So the fastener can be smaller and use lower torque values as it's not load bearing.

    Not debating which is a better design, just pointing out they aren't really so similar, despite both using Igus bushings.

    What do you think of the Chris King fun bolts- 12mm bolt replacing a QR?
    there is no debate which is the better design. turner bushings last years even without the rider greasing them regularly, they win hands down. it's still the main pivot bolt, so low torque? finger tight and needing locktite as a solution is not a good design.

    i like banshee. i think keith has designed some great bikes but the bushing system sucks. i'm not against bushings over bearings either, this system is weak, no question about it despite your own success with it. too many variables, too much maintenance. too many people having issues. i'm a millwright, i undertand torque values and how things go together mechanically. i understand maintenance and its value so i'm not a noob that doesn't get caring for an item. the design of the bushings is weak, there really is no debate about that.

    so there is no load on the pivot bolts on a banshee?!? i don't think so. it holds the whole rear end together and takes side loads. it's not a small bolt there. it can take way more torque than less than 5nm.

  17. #17
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    I will be happy to take a large Rune frame off anyone's hands that is experiencing premature wear...I might even be willing to pay for it! Shoot me a PM.

    Sorry to hear folks are having issues though!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    so there is no load on the pivot bolts on a banshee?!?
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    i don't think so. it holds the whole rear end together and takes side loads. it's not a small bolt there. it can take way more torque than less than 5nm.


    Take the bolt out of your banshee main pivot, and go ride the bike.
    It will ride fine... until the axle eventually backs out. The bolt is only there to hold the axle in. A cotter pin could do the same job. If there is no slop in the main pivot, the swingarm yoke takes all the side load, not the bolt head. The swinglink is not countersunk and the bolthead sits outside the pivot.

    Take the bolts out of a turner main pivot and the suspension will collapse completely. The rockers are countersunk for the bolt, and loads are transferred directly to the bolt through the rocker.

    Again, it's not really valuable to compare to turner as it's a totally different design.

  19. #19
    FM
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    Qbert, here you go.

    Banshee axle: load bearing (head is integral to axle, which extends entirely through swing link on both sides)


    Turner axle: does not extend past frame into chainstay yoke. Loads rest on bolt heads inside the chainstay yoke countersinks.



    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    All pivot bolts should have blue loctite on the threads to stop them coming loose. They are not required structurally, their only purpose is to stop the axles from falling out really.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Correct.





    Take the bolt out of your banshee main pivot, and go ride the bike.
    It will ride fine... until the axle eventually backs out. The bolt is only there to hold the axle in. A cotter pin could do the same job. If there is no slop in the main pivot, the swingarm yoke takes all the side load, not the bolt head. The swinglink is not countersunk and the bolthead sits outside the pivot.

    Take the bolts out of a turner main pivot and the suspension will collapse completely. The rockers are countersunk for the bolt, and loads are transferred directly to the bolt through the rocker.

    Again, it's not really valuable to compare to turner as it's a totally different design.
    you're dreaming if you think there's no load on that bolt while riding. particularly during turns and any side loading.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Qbert, here you go.

    Banshee axle: load bearing (head is integral to axle, which extends entirely through swing link on both sides)


    Turner axle: does not extend past frame into chainstay yoke. Loads rest on bolt heads inside the chainstay yoke countersinks.
    yes, there is a shear load on the turner bolt hence the size of the bolt. that has no bearing on how tight it can be torqued though.

  22. #22
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    Jeez I should have never gotten dragged into this.

    You're pushing two different topics;
    • Can the Banshee main pivot bolt take more than 5nm?

    Of course the bolt can, and you are probably going to point out that the bolt can take more than the pivot was designed for. A much smaller fastener like a M5 with washer (or again, even a cotter pin) would get the job done. But then you'd have to pick mud out of a smaller opening to service your pivots.

    This is why I brought up the King fun bolts. 12mm bolt (or whatever it is) is ridiculous overkill, and encourages a home mechanics to WAY over-tighten. But you never have to worry about stripping it out! Is that bad engineering too?


    • Is the Banshee main pivot bolt load bearing?


    You could successfully debate that the banshee main pivot bolt sees occasional "shear loads" as you put it, or coincidental forces. It is not load bearing though.

    Again, pull the bolt and go ride your bike around the neighborhood. The bike will ride fine, temporarily. That's fundamentally different that the turner design, which is why Turner HAS to use much larger fasteners.

    Think about load bearing vs. partition walls in a house. Either can support a side load. But only one is truly structural.

    Here is something else to ponder:
    What amount of preload is best for iGlide bushings?
    The answer is... the least amount necessary. Basing the torque specs on the fastener alone will just wear out the bushings prematurely.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Jeez I should have never gotten dragged into this.

    You're pushing two different topics;
    • Can the Banshee main pivot bolt take more than 5nm?

    Of course the bolt can, and you are probably going to point out that the bolt can take more than the pivot was designed for. A much smaller fastener like a 5mm with washer (or again, even a cotter pin) would get the job done. But then you'd have to pick mud out of a smaller opening to service your pivots.

    This is why I brought up the King fun bolts. 12mm bolt (or whatever it is) is ridiculous overkill, and encourages a home mechanics to WAY over-tighten. But you never have to worry about stripping it out! Is that bad engineering too?


    • Is the Banshee main pivot bolt load bearing?


    You could successfully debate that the banshee main pivot bolt sees occasional "shear loads" as you put it, or coincidental forces. It is not load bearing though.

    Again, pull the bolt and go ride your bike around the neighborhood. The bike will ride fine, temporarily. That's fundamentally different that the turner design, which is why Turner HAS to use much larger fasteners.

    Here is something else to ponder:
    What amount of preload is best for iGlide bushings?
    The answer is... the least amount necessary. Basing the torque specs on the fastener alone will just wear out the bushings prematurely.
    which is why the banshee design isn't any good. there needs to be a way to stop over tightening against the face of the bushing like on the turner design. you can claim you have no wear and it's a great design all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it isn't user friendly and requires way too much maintenance and is too sensitive to over torquing. too many people are having issues, it's not a one off.

    here's one for you then. how does one tell what is too much torque then on an iglide bushing? evidently torque wrenches are no good for that. and one man's finger tight is another man's too loose or too tight. the systen is flawed. what does keith have to say on the subject.

    i'm going to ride both my spitty and rune into the ground because i don't think i would sell them to anyone knowing that there will be problems down the road. don't know what boone can do about buying up banshee's that have wear. i'd be interested to hear what he's talking about and how much he'd pay for a worn out rune.

    i would gladly stick with the brand if banshee stepped up and offered a new rune or spitty at cost on trade in with my or any other owners worn out rune/spitfire. otherwise i'm gonna ride em till their dead and move on to another brand. don't see i have any other choice in the matter. will be the first bikes i've ever owned that i haven't sold off before i got a new steed. sucks azz

  24. #24
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    All I can say is: since doing a full overhaul with the whole clean threads/Loctite/lithium grease/torque to spec, things have been solid. Riding in slop, dry, it's been putting up with my hackery.

    As I've also said though, the first sign of trouble (like having to re-do my pivots more than say every six months), I'm selling the thing and swapping to a Trance-X frame. Recently built up a Reign-X as a "bigger bike" and pedaling on that things is awesome in comparison to the Spitty, even with the RX being a much heavier/slacker build.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    you're dreaming if you think there's no load on that bolt while riding. particularly during turns and any side loading.
    Agreed and why my pivot bolts eventually come loose from time to time if not tightened to about 5Nm even with locktite. "Finger tight" is not enough to keep them from loosening, period.
    Ride On!

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