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  1. #1
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    Rune bushings (again)

    After reading the other threads regarding torque specs and how they should now be less then Banshee initially recommend, I took everything apart on my Rune tonight to inspect the bushings and check frame wear. I was somewhat surprised to see early wear on the inside of the chainstays and pivot link. The wear is less than the thickness of the bushing flange, but I imagine it's only going to get worse. Thankfully, I've been riding my Paradox most of the time, because I'm sure it would have been much worse. My frame's only 2 years old.

    Anyway, I was thinking of running the pivots sans grease. Good idea? I'll also be lowering the torque and using blue loctite on the thread bolts.
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  2. #2
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    It was NOT reccomended by banshee to run your pivots dry. That being said, I have noticed a that quite few people that are NOT having problems with pivots ARE in fact running thier pivots dry, more due to just not knowing or caring otherwise, I would suspect so, I dunno. I rode a titus motolite for years without doing anything. Worked awesome til the day I sold it.

  3. #3
    FM
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    Lithium grease, lock-tite on clean threads, and no more than 1/4 turn past finger-tight!

  4. #4
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    What is the torque value of "finger tight +1/4 turn" anyways? I have found if I run 3Nm or less torque, the pivot bolts will loosen eventually, even with blue locktite and clean threads.
    Ride On!

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    I have yet to do anything to my bushings and I goth it last November. Still rides like a dream! HOLLA!!!

  6. #6
    FM
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    Yeah mine have been running smooth & silent since I did the pivot maintenance post back in late October. Had a grea ride on mine recently and was amazed at how smooth and quiet they were running!

    I believe over-tightening, either by owners, shops/distributors, or from the factory, is behind most of the pivot issues people have had. Once the pivot surfaces have worn down due to being over-tightened, people try to adjust the play out by.....over-tightening some more! then things probably go south very quickly.

    Keith has mentioned that the pivot bolts should only be used to hold things in place, not to pre-load the pivots or bushings at all.

    I would think any play in the system would break a lock-tite bond. There are some situations I don't trust torque wrenches, particularly when the torque values are super low. I use about the same amount of torque I put on the 2.5mm allens that hold my disc brake pads in place. "2-finger tight"! I did clean all threads with denatured alcohol, and let the bike sit for 24hrs so the locktite could dry.

    I haven't had any play in my system, but it seems like finding or creating some thin nylon or plastic washers (old bushing flanges or yogurt cups might work) to take up the play, would be a better solution than over-tightening. If you think about a clevis-pivot, over-tightening only closes one side of the opening, which would create uneven loads on the bushing. Using a thin plastic or iglide washer instead, would spread the loads out evenly, plus it would wear before aluminum (i.e. frame pivot surface.) This is the way Straitline does their bushing system, I've got straitline pedals with something like 5 years of use on them, and there's no wear beyond the bushings which I replace every year or so. Their system does not allow the user to create any preload on the bushings.
    Last edited by FM; 09-14-2011 at 09:44 AM.

  7. #7
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    That's all great in theory, but let's take a look at the true fact of the matter:

    *Initiall torque specs with listed as 5-6nm. Yet "finger tight" is recommended? The Rune is a burely bike that require's finger tight torque specs? Where is this bit of highly important information listed? MTBR forum posts do not count IMO.

    *I've taken care of my Rune since day one. However, my pivots have always been overtightend and now I have pivot wear to deal with. My guess is blue loctite won't work for me at this point and as you point out FM, this will only head south from here.
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  8. #8
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by <sL4yEr>RuLz View Post
    MTBR forum posts do not count IMO.
    Then my replies are wasted time?

    Quote Originally Posted by <sL4yEr>RuLz View Post
    *Initiall torque specs with listed as 5-6nm. Yet "finger tight" is recommended? The Rune is a burely bike that require's finger tight torque specs? Where is this bit of highly important information listed?

    Here you go-
    and you are correct with the initial torque specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    All pivot bolts should have blue loctite on the threads to stop them coming loose. They are not required structurally, their only purpose is to stop the axles from falling out really.
    My .02c here, most consumer torque wrenches aren't accurate at all below 15nm. By the time you've got a reading on most torque wrenches, you've over-tightened. Understanding what the bolts actually do (simply hold things in place) is more important.

    Don't stress on your frame, just don't continue to over-tighten. I would rebuild, and if there is slop, make some washers out of the old bushings or something else (yogurt cups?) to take slop out of the pivot so the system is slop-free and pivot bolts are snugged just past finger tight.

    I could be wrong on all this, but I've had no issues with my pivots......

    By the way, I have one of Dunierinaz's killer grease-purge fittings if you want to try that.

  9. #9
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    I'm not too stressed. My Rune's been solid (due to over-tightening) since day one. I'm thankful for the Banshee MTBR community because without it, who knows? But it's never been set up properly and is a continuous work in progress. Now that I'm educated, it might be too late or require more of my precious time wrenching on a bike that I just want to ride. Know what I'm saying?

    Moving forward, I'd like a new a new rear end and a linkage plate to set things straight. Is that too much to ask for?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Then my replies are wasted time?



    Here you go-
    and you are correct with the initial torque specs.



    My .02c here, most consumer torque wrenches aren't accurate at all below 15nm. By the time you've got a reading on most torque wrenches, you've over-tightened. Understanding what the bolts actually do (simply hold things in place) is more important.

    Don't stress on your frame, just don't continue to over-tighten. I would rebuild, and if there is slop, make some washers out of the old bushings or something else (yogurt cups?) to take slop out of the pivot so the system is slop-free and pivot bolts are snugged just past finger tight.


    I could be wrong on all this, but I've had no issues with my pivots......

    By the way, I have one of Dunierinaz's killer grease-purge fittings if you want to try that.

    as much of a fan of the company and the ride of my spitty and rune, "finger tight + 1/4 turn is unacceptable as a torque recommendation imho. i love the bikes. love how well banshee has responded on the forums but even 5nm as a torque spec is too low for a pivot application.

    this is a design flaw plain and simple. leaving it up to the consumer to play with torque settings is no good. i own an excellent very expensive and well calibrated torque wrench. i perform regular maintenance and yet i am now experiencing wear on my rune. 5nm is almost nothing. my turners ran a much higher torque spec but were designed so that over-tightening did not lead to frame wear.

    right now as the design of the bushing system sits i would not recommend a rune or spitfire to a friend as much as i love how they ride. they are cheaper frames cost wise compared to some brands but far from cheap. they cost too much to be considered a value and disposable after a year or two's use. i would hesitate to sell it to anyone knowing it's basically a ticking time bomb. too many people are experiencing wear. it's not a one off and the defense from some owners that it's down to people not maintaining them properly is pure bs as people have followed the recommended torque settings from banshee and still had issues. so what if some have not, too many have imho.

    i stand by what i've said before, this will be my last banshee purchase unless banshee stepped up and offered an updated design to current owners at cost. otherwise i'll be looking at yeti, turner, ibis or a myriad of other offerings currently on the market that don't have design issues.

    i would love to hear a response from keith on the issue. finger tight plus a little bit is hardly a well engineered bit of technical advice.

  11. #11
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    "finger tight + 1/4 turn is unacceptable as a torque recommendation imho. i love the bikes. love how well banshee has responded on the forums but even 5nm as a torque spec is too low for a pivot application.
    .................................................. .................................................. ....
    finger tight plus a little bit is hardly a well engineered bit of technical advice.
    Fair enough, I do not disagree.
    Seriously... I weigh my coffee beans and time my espresso shots,every morning.
    Ideally, there should be a published, quantifiable torque setting that the pivots have been tested and proven to work correctly at (and perhaps it is 5nm as posted by Keith).

    However- One of the main points I was getting at; very few people have access to a torque wrench that accurately reads 5nm. With most torque wrenches, which often start at 5nm, that's like trying to use the speedometer on your car to pace somebody crawling at .5 mile per hour. Or weighing those new handlebars with a bathroom scale. By the time you get a reading of 5nm, it's actually way too tight.... and then you get premature pivot wear.

    5nm = 44 inch pounds.
    That's the minimum torque value park tools suggests for derailuer cable pinch bolts, hydraulic hose fittings and cantilever brake pad bolts.
    So it's really not surprising that most people (even those who own torque wrenches) have inadvertently over-tightened their pivot bolts.


    IMO- publishing the torque spec in inch-pounds would be a good idea, as it would discourage people from using and trusting a torque wrench that was designed to operate at much higher values.....
    Last edited by FM; 09-14-2011 at 01:42 PM.

  12. #12
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    FM also has a tape measure in his closet to measure his waist so he picks the right pair of underwear every morning.
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  13. #13
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by juice View Post
    FM also has a tape measure in his closet to measure his waist so he picks the right pair of underwear every morning.
    Dude, how dare you poke around in my closet. Have been wondering where my tape measurer went.

    However, the tape measurer has not been used for underwear. I have a scale for that- when they hit .5lbs... it's time for a fresh pair.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Fair enough, I do not disagree.


    5nm = 44 inch pounds.
    That's the minimum torque value park tools suggests for derailuer cable pinch bolts, hydraulic hose fittings and cantilever brake pad bolts.
    So it's really not surprising that most people (even those who own torque wrenches) have inadvertently over-tightened their pivot bolts.


    IMO- publishing the torque spec in inch-pounds would be a good idea, as it would discourage people from using and trusting a torque wrench that was designed to operate at much higher values.....
    that's way too low a torque for a main pivot bolt. that's the design flaw imo. the pivots see a lot of stress, tightening that low with that size a bolt is under torqued. relying on blue locktight to keep it tight is not an answer. using a torque spec that low is retarded on a main pivot bolt imo. just too low, if you can't get a real measurement on a pivot bolt because its so loose that's a problem. a serious one

    locktight keeps bolts from vibrating loose, not as a torque aid. it's a poor design, no other answer. look at the bolts listed on parks site. they are all a lot smaller than the main pivot bolt on the banshees. turners bushings use around the same bolt size as the banshee bolt and their spec is a lot higher, measured in foot/pounds, 11ft/pds for their main pivot bolts. that's a huge difference and one reason you see turner pivots last for years with minimal maintenance. years

  15. #15
    FM
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    There is a big difference in the design though; the bolt heads are load bearing on Turners, the pivot axles do not extend past the frame into the rockers.
    On the banshee design, the axle goes through the rocker, so the loads rest on the axle, not the bolt head. So the fastener can be smaller and use lower torque values as it's not load bearing.

    Not debating which is a better design, just pointing out they aren't really so similar, despite both using Igus bushings.

    What do you think of the Chris King fun bolts- 12mm bolt replacing a QR?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    There is a big difference in the design though; the bolt heads are load bearing on Turners, the pivot axles do not extend past the frame into the rockers.
    On the banshee design, the axle goes through the rocker, so the loads rest on the axle, not the bolt head. So the fastener can be smaller and use lower torque values as it's not load bearing.

    Not debating which is a better design, just pointing out they aren't really so similar, despite both using Igus bushings.

    What do you think of the Chris King fun bolts- 12mm bolt replacing a QR?
    there is no debate which is the better design. turner bushings last years even without the rider greasing them regularly, they win hands down. it's still the main pivot bolt, so low torque? finger tight and needing locktite as a solution is not a good design.

    i like banshee. i think keith has designed some great bikes but the bushing system sucks. i'm not against bushings over bearings either, this system is weak, no question about it despite your own success with it. too many variables, too much maintenance. too many people having issues. i'm a millwright, i undertand torque values and how things go together mechanically. i understand maintenance and its value so i'm not a noob that doesn't get caring for an item. the design of the bushings is weak, there really is no debate about that.

    so there is no load on the pivot bolts on a banshee?!? i don't think so. it holds the whole rear end together and takes side loads. it's not a small bolt there. it can take way more torque than less than 5nm.

  17. #17
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    I will be happy to take a large Rune frame off anyone's hands that is experiencing premature wear...I might even be willing to pay for it! Shoot me a PM.

    Sorry to hear folks are having issues though!

  18. #18
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    so there is no load on the pivot bolts on a banshee?!?
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    i don't think so. it holds the whole rear end together and takes side loads. it's not a small bolt there. it can take way more torque than less than 5nm.


    Take the bolt out of your banshee main pivot, and go ride the bike.
    It will ride fine... until the axle eventually backs out. The bolt is only there to hold the axle in. A cotter pin could do the same job. If there is no slop in the main pivot, the swingarm yoke takes all the side load, not the bolt head. The swinglink is not countersunk and the bolthead sits outside the pivot.

    Take the bolts out of a turner main pivot and the suspension will collapse completely. The rockers are countersunk for the bolt, and loads are transferred directly to the bolt through the rocker.

    Again, it's not really valuable to compare to turner as it's a totally different design.

  19. #19
    FM
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    Qbert, here you go.

    Banshee axle: load bearing (head is integral to axle, which extends entirely through swing link on both sides)


    Turner axle: does not extend past frame into chainstay yoke. Loads rest on bolt heads inside the chainstay yoke countersinks.



    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    All pivot bolts should have blue loctite on the threads to stop them coming loose. They are not required structurally, their only purpose is to stop the axles from falling out really.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Correct.





    Take the bolt out of your banshee main pivot, and go ride the bike.
    It will ride fine... until the axle eventually backs out. The bolt is only there to hold the axle in. A cotter pin could do the same job. If there is no slop in the main pivot, the swingarm yoke takes all the side load, not the bolt head. The swinglink is not countersunk and the bolthead sits outside the pivot.

    Take the bolts out of a turner main pivot and the suspension will collapse completely. The rockers are countersunk for the bolt, and loads are transferred directly to the bolt through the rocker.

    Again, it's not really valuable to compare to turner as it's a totally different design.
    you're dreaming if you think there's no load on that bolt while riding. particularly during turns and any side loading.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Qbert, here you go.

    Banshee axle: load bearing (head is integral to axle, which extends entirely through swing link on both sides)


    Turner axle: does not extend past frame into chainstay yoke. Loads rest on bolt heads inside the chainstay yoke countersinks.
    yes, there is a shear load on the turner bolt hence the size of the bolt. that has no bearing on how tight it can be torqued though.

  22. #22
    FM
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    Jeez I should have never gotten dragged into this.

    You're pushing two different topics;
    • Can the Banshee main pivot bolt take more than 5nm?

    Of course the bolt can, and you are probably going to point out that the bolt can take more than the pivot was designed for. A much smaller fastener like a M5 with washer (or again, even a cotter pin) would get the job done. But then you'd have to pick mud out of a smaller opening to service your pivots.

    This is why I brought up the King fun bolts. 12mm bolt (or whatever it is) is ridiculous overkill, and encourages a home mechanics to WAY over-tighten. But you never have to worry about stripping it out! Is that bad engineering too?


    • Is the Banshee main pivot bolt load bearing?


    You could successfully debate that the banshee main pivot bolt sees occasional "shear loads" as you put it, or coincidental forces. It is not load bearing though.

    Again, pull the bolt and go ride your bike around the neighborhood. The bike will ride fine, temporarily. That's fundamentally different that the turner design, which is why Turner HAS to use much larger fasteners.

    Think about load bearing vs. partition walls in a house. Either can support a side load. But only one is truly structural.

    Here is something else to ponder:
    What amount of preload is best for iGlide bushings?
    The answer is... the least amount necessary. Basing the torque specs on the fastener alone will just wear out the bushings prematurely.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Jeez I should have never gotten dragged into this.

    You're pushing two different topics;
    • Can the Banshee main pivot bolt take more than 5nm?

    Of course the bolt can, and you are probably going to point out that the bolt can take more than the pivot was designed for. A much smaller fastener like a 5mm with washer (or again, even a cotter pin) would get the job done. But then you'd have to pick mud out of a smaller opening to service your pivots.

    This is why I brought up the King fun bolts. 12mm bolt (or whatever it is) is ridiculous overkill, and encourages a home mechanics to WAY over-tighten. But you never have to worry about stripping it out! Is that bad engineering too?


    • Is the Banshee main pivot bolt load bearing?


    You could successfully debate that the banshee main pivot bolt sees occasional "shear loads" as you put it, or coincidental forces. It is not load bearing though.

    Again, pull the bolt and go ride your bike around the neighborhood. The bike will ride fine, temporarily. That's fundamentally different that the turner design, which is why Turner HAS to use much larger fasteners.

    Here is something else to ponder:
    What amount of preload is best for iGlide bushings?
    The answer is... the least amount necessary. Basing the torque specs on the fastener alone will just wear out the bushings prematurely.
    which is why the banshee design isn't any good. there needs to be a way to stop over tightening against the face of the bushing like on the turner design. you can claim you have no wear and it's a great design all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it isn't user friendly and requires way too much maintenance and is too sensitive to over torquing. too many people are having issues, it's not a one off.

    here's one for you then. how does one tell what is too much torque then on an iglide bushing? evidently torque wrenches are no good for that. and one man's finger tight is another man's too loose or too tight. the systen is flawed. what does keith have to say on the subject.

    i'm going to ride both my spitty and rune into the ground because i don't think i would sell them to anyone knowing that there will be problems down the road. don't know what boone can do about buying up banshee's that have wear. i'd be interested to hear what he's talking about and how much he'd pay for a worn out rune.

    i would gladly stick with the brand if banshee stepped up and offered a new rune or spitty at cost on trade in with my or any other owners worn out rune/spitfire. otherwise i'm gonna ride em till their dead and move on to another brand. don't see i have any other choice in the matter. will be the first bikes i've ever owned that i haven't sold off before i got a new steed. sucks azz

  24. #24
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    All I can say is: since doing a full overhaul with the whole clean threads/Loctite/lithium grease/torque to spec, things have been solid. Riding in slop, dry, it's been putting up with my hackery.

    As I've also said though, the first sign of trouble (like having to re-do my pivots more than say every six months), I'm selling the thing and swapping to a Trance-X frame. Recently built up a Reign-X as a "bigger bike" and pedaling on that things is awesome in comparison to the Spitty, even with the RX being a much heavier/slacker build.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    you're dreaming if you think there's no load on that bolt while riding. particularly during turns and any side loading.
    Agreed and why my pivot bolts eventually come loose from time to time if not tightened to about 5Nm even with locktite. "Finger tight" is not enough to keep them from loosening, period.
    Ride On!

  26. #26
    FM
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    You guys must all be right since you had the pivot issues, and I haven't

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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    You guys must all be right since you had the pivot issues, and I haven't
    Not a question or right or wrong, just trying to keep the ride functioning properly without pivot/frame quirks to sweat about or have to deal with on a somewhat regular basis so we can stay on our bikes longer. I don't know what to say, you must be one of the lucky ones , cause I think just about any of their bushing'ed systems will develop quirks/problems sooner or later, it's just a matter of time and unfortunately for me it was typically a lot sooner than expected later.
    Ride On!

  28. #28
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    Ha, well said Jgusta.

    Here's my theory on torque values, 5nm might be fine for a new frame with tight tolerances.
    Once things get some play (possibly as a result of over-tightening), it would make sense that the play would start to work the pivot bolts loose... requiring more torque to keep the bolt snug.

    This is where I think a washer or spacer is maybe a better fix.

    Perhaps the proper torque is dependant on frame condition...

    This would all help explain why some people have had issues while others haven't.....

  29. #29
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    Look, it just doesn't seem right that I have frame wear due to torquing to suggested specs. Even if I didn't, I don't see how its possible to keep dirt and grime from wearing down your pivots (eventually).

    FM's case is exceptional only because I know him personally and am in constant awe of his bike geekery. The dude knows his **** where I'm more of a "learn from my mistakes" type of guy.

    If any of you ride the holy crap out of your bikes like we do, your not going to feel comfortable selling it without replacing the rear (and I would be happy to do so at a discounted price). I'm sureas**** not going to fart around with homemade spacers.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Ha, well said Jgusta.

    Here's my theory on torque values, 5nm might be fine for a new frame with tight tolerances.
    Once things get some play (possibly as a result of over-tightening), it would make sense that the play would start to work the pivot bolts loose... requiring more torque to keep the bolt snug.

    This is where I think a washer or spacer is maybe a better fix.

    Perhaps the proper torque is dependant on frame condition...

    This would all help explain why some people have had issues while others haven't.....
    Yep, torqueing things down more when a little bit of play becomes evident when bushings are in good shape and whatnot will only accelerate the frame wear while diminishing the play only for the time being like you said. To offset this on my recent new Rune frame, I went ahead and crammed a shim in there early on (within a months time) to stop/minimize the wear and snugged it back up to 5Nm and wholah, no play. But, when hitting a corner hard occasionally, I hear/feel this aweful grind noise in the frame that I had before my first Rune failed and just before I noticed a crack on the second frame I owned. It must be due to poor frame tolerances, simple as that, I'm 3 for 3 now, 100% problem to some degree with the frames instead of the <0.1% that I beleive Keith mentioned frames have developed premature problems or failed. Love how the bike pedals and rides for the most part, but lots of love has to go into to it to keep it riding and even that there is no guarantee that something won't develop sooner or later.
    Ride On!

  31. #31
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    I have to say that some of what QBert and others are saying is true. I have, from day one, taken immense care of this frame (as I do any bike) and as a result, I have never had a bike, or bike part that required so much maintenance in order to keep riding. I even had the ol' 2007 Boxxers, which I took apart every 2–3 weeks and completely tore down every month or so to rebuild (and that was a year that I don't think I will ever ride as much as again). I love working and tinkering on my bikes but this is just too much and is taking away from other necessary maintenance, such as fork rebuilds, brake bleeds and so on.

    In the 12 months that I have owned this bike I have honestly torn down the back end completely, every 5–6 weeks and have many checks on my pivots and bolts in between. I was stoked that I made it almost a full 12 months (even with our really wet spring here, probably the demise of the old bushings) on the original bushings, but upon replacing them noticed wear in the cnc'ed link plate, behind the bushing flange. Even after the excessive amount of time and care on this specific part of this bike, it's still eating itself.

    As others have said, I too fricken love the ride of this bike! Everything about it is perfect—except the bushings/system—and unless something is done about this I too will regrettably be purchasing a different manufacturers frame, potentially sooner than later as I feel nervous with it now.

    I am especially nervous that after all the fantastic customer relations from Keith and Jay at Banshee, any mention of this to them brings nothing? :S Even after many prompt emails with them regarding other parts, this brought nothing… quite concerning.

    Come on guys! Please prove us wrong and come out with a solution/update/upgrade—soon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb721 View Post
    I have to say that some of what QBert and others are saying is true. I have, from day one, taken immense care of this frame (as I do any bike) and as a result, I have never had a bike, or bike part that required so much maintenance in order to keep riding. I even had the ol' 2007 Boxxers, which I took apart every 2–3 weeks and completely tore down every month or so to rebuild (and that was a year that I don't think I will ever ride as much as again). I love working and tinkering on my bikes but this is just too much and is taking away from other necessary maintenance, such as fork rebuilds, brake bleeds and so on.

    In the 12 months that I have owned this bike I have honestly torn down the back end completely, every 5–6 weeks and have many checks on my pivots and bolts in between. I was stoked that I made it almost a full 12 months (even with our really wet spring here, probably the demise of the old bushings) on the original bushings, but upon replacing them noticed wear in the cnc'ed link plate, behind the bushing flange. Even after the excessive amount of time and care on this specific part of this bike, it's still eating itself.

    As others have said, I too fricken love the ride of this bike! Everything about it is perfect—except the bushings/system—and unless something is done about this I too will regrettably be purchasing a different manufacturers frame, potentially sooner than later as I feel nervous with it now.

    I am especially nervous that after all the fantastic customer relations from Keith and Jay at Banshee, any mention of this to them brings nothing? :S Even after many prompt emails with them regarding other parts, this brought nothing… quite concerning.

    Come on guys! Please prove us wrong and come out with a solution/update/upgrade—soon!
    agreed. i don't want to feel they are hiding from this issue. like slayer said it can no longer be a 1% issue.

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    I'm in the same boat.
    My experience has been that 5nm is too tight. My frame and links are worn in all pivots after ~ 12 months of riding and I've always tightened my pivots to 5nm using a bike specific torque wrench that only goes upto 15nm. Despite spending Ł60 on a good quality bike specific torque wrench, I'm willing to accept that it could be inaccurate, but even if we assume that it's 20% inaccurate, that's still only a small amount of extra torque and that's enough to wear into the frame. Learning that "finger tight" is much better after being meticulous about torques is a real kick in the balls.

    I agree with qbert, I think the pivot system is too sensitive and over tightening the pivot bolts by small amounts shouldn't result in damage to the frame. So far, I've spent way more on new bushings and pivots in 12 months than I would have done on a full set of quality bearings.
    If this had been a frame that I didn't love, I'd have binned it and moved on a long time ago. The only reason I'm still bothered by this is because I love how the bike rides and I want to stick with it, I thought I'd found the perfect AM bike but the pivot system has been a big disappointment. Feels like I found the perfect girlfriend - beautiful, intelligent, loads of fun but when you get down to business, she turns out to be a man.
    I want to get this fixed, replace the rear end, links, bushings and pivots but I'm concerned that I'll be in the same situation in another 12 months. That would be a waste of money that could have gone to another frame.

    Banshee have provided awesome support so I'm hopeful for a permanent solution for this issue but so far I'm not liking what I'm seeing.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by egginsoup View Post
    If this had been a frame that I didn't love, I'd have binned it and moved on a long time ago. The only reason I'm still bothered by this is because I love how the bike rides and I want to stick with it, I thought I'd found the perfect AM bike but the pivot system has been a big disappointment. Feels like I found the perfect girlfriend - beautiful, intelligent, loads of fun but when you get down to business, she turns out to be a man.

    Banshee have provided awesome support so I'm hopeful for a permanent solution for this issue but so far I'm not liking what I'm seeing.
    Couldn't agree more and I LMAO at your analogy!

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    So, I have a brand new XL Rune in the bike stand waiting on a few small parts to complete. What would you do? Should I check all pivots and re-tighten them using the hand tight plus 1/4 turn and blue loctite method or use the recommended factory spec?

    Also, I agree the Turner system is a great design. I rode an XCE for over five years and never even replaced the bushings; just injected clean grease into them periodically and it kept working smoothly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qfactor03 View Post
    So, I have a brand new XL Rune in the bike stand waiting on a few small parts to complete. What would you do? Should I check all pivots and re-tighten them using the hand tight plus 1/4 turn and blue loctite method or use the recommended factory spec?

    Also, I agree the Turner system is a great design. I rode an XCE for over five years and never even replaced the bushings; just injected clean grease into them periodically and it kept working smoothly.
    i'd try the 1/4 turn after finger tight. kinda retarded and i really want to hear from keith on this. it's probably your best bet

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    Pretty accurate it's sad to say and just a sad situation overall unfortunately. Mainly cause the bikes do many things quite well (pedal, climb, descend, carve, and jump) and are usually always fun to ride as you mentioned. But IMO, if you can't get a season out of one, let alone a couple seasons out of a frame without having major problems with it, then it's not worth anything in the end. Sorry, you had to deal and move on to something else unexpectedly. I myself have had a love/hate relationship with my Rune frames for almost two years now. Love how it rides for my riding style and for most of the terrain I like to ride on, but hate having to deal with all the intracacies and challenges involved with riding and owning these frames.
    Ride On!

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    Roasted??? Damned I bought a Rune brand new around April, rode it maybe 10 days in the Alps and had a huge play, greased everything before my trip, torqued carefully.

    Can't imagine living/riding this bike in the mountain full time!!!

    The distributor charges me 45 € for a set of bushings, I took 2 or 3 spares!!!

    Then gave up on this frame, actually this was my son frame, got him another bike, full cost : more than 3000€ !!
    Don't think I'll ever sell it, obviuously can't sell it to a friend ! The crappiest frame I ever had !

    NOW you can flame...

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by egginsoup View Post

    Feels like I found the perfect girlfriend - beautiful, intelligent, loads of fun but when you get down to business, she turns out to be a man.
    There have been a load of good analogies in this thread, but none come close to this one!

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    from my experiences its not pivot torque causing the issues?

    but poorly manufactured frames with pool alignment and poor tolerances, and generally a lack of sealing from the outside environment (hint: its a mountain bike!)

    ask any experienced engineer about polymer bushings and they will tell you that they are the ideal choice for pivot applications of limited rotation, as long as you manufacture with very high alignment and high tolerances, and good sealing

    there is a reason the rest of the "bike industry" uses sealed ball bearing : they may not be the ideal choice for pivot applications of limited rotation, but there are much more tolerant of poor frame alignment, lower tolerances and have their own sealing systems

    and if they become graunchy you can replace the entire bearing, with no damage to the frame itself


    the last of many customers I sold a Spitfire to (a friend of mine) suffered 6 months of constant rebuilding the pivots after every weekend with loctite and torque wrench, until the bike became unrideable

    as an mechanical engineer he is no idiot with a torque wrench, but could not live with his dream frame any more as it was just too much hassle and the frame itself was showing considerable wear around the pivot points despite new IGUS bushings

    thankfully the distributor he bought his Spitfire frame from gave him a full warranty credit and he paid only a small upcharge for a Canadian-built FSR style complete bike (!!) which runs on ball bearings with steel hardware

    already he compliments the new bike saying it feels "much more sensitive" and he's not had any issues with pivots?


    hopefully Banshee can swallow their pride and move their Rune and Spitfires to ball bearing pivots as soon as possible - 2013 seems like way too far off, considering that All-Mtn and Trail frames are most serious mountain bike companies "bread and butter" when it comes to keeping paying customers riding the brand

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandersbigbike View Post
    There have been a load of good analogies in this thread, but none come close to this one!
    LMAO! Thank God I wouldn't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiggs View Post
    Look everyone, I love these bikes just as much as everyone else on here, but they have issues. I'm not trying to sit here and rant and rave and badmouth Banshee because they seem like cool guys and the bikes RIDE awesome, but... I dealt with these exact same issues on my Spitfire and Keith initially took care of me. I decided to put up with it because I rode the crap out of that bike for a year and pushed it way outside of it's element. It always performed wonderfully, but the bushings wore fast and would develop serious play and knocks if not replaced frequently. I bought a huge amount of bushings direct from Igus and replaced them frequently just to try and prevent the issue. I even tried some other bikes this past year, but always went back to the Spitty. I finally bought a Rune this summer thinking it would be more up to the task of what I ride and that those issues wouldn't surface. Well, after 4 months of use on the frame, the same problems surfaced. Despite running the pivots as loose as possible, yet still eliminating lateral play, the bushings still continue to fail. Bummer. I contacted Keith again and was directed to the distributor in Vancouver this time. They were cool on the phone and told me they'd contact me later in the day with info on replacement parts, etc... Long story short, I never heard back from them and sold both the Spitfire and the Rune. I've dealt with numerous failing parts over the years as we all have, but I've never had issues with pivots on my other bikes. Sure, some notchy bearings here or there, but that's it and that never affected the ride of the bike. And let's be honest, 6nm, no 5nm, no 4nm, no 3nm, no finger tight is all you need is getting ridiculous. It's clearly an inferior system that is very sensitive to tolerances of any type.

    I'm not sure why he hasn't been posting much lately (or I know exactly why he hasn't been posting much lately), but Keith needs to come out and address this issue. Since he's yet to do that, here it goes. I was told by him via email that the Rune will not be upgraded to bearings for another 2 years! He told me this wasn't common knowledge yet, but I'm tired of seeing these threads go on and on about Rune upgrades this and that with no input or updates from them other than "finger tight is all you need" and "we've been running ours for 18 months in blah blah blah with no issues". If you're having problems with your bushings then be prepared to deal with it until you get a different bike or buy the new Rune when it comes out in 2 years. Of course, we all know how release dates go with bike companies so 2 years may be the minimum, but it could be much much longer. In the end, I told him I was sorry to hear this as I wanted to remain a Banshee customer, but that I would not be waiting around for another two years after having two bikes of theirs falter in one year.

    I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I just wanted to go ahead and put this info out there for all of you to consider. Banshee frames are priced very well compared to the competition, but it's still our hard earned money that we're spending on them. No matter what the price, issues like this occurring after only months of riding is disappointing.

    Again, I LOVE the way these bikes ride and have had an absolute blast on both of mine, but this issue is just too common and too damn annoying to ignore any longer.

    I'm really hoping Keith isn't posting because of Interbike or something. For all of FM's praise and the fact his bushings are great, there is an issue. They've basically admitted as much by moving away from bushings on both the Legend Mark II and the proto Prime. But what about current owners? This issue needs to be addressed. I just want to hear that it is an issue and that it's being taken care of on future bikes and before 2013. I'd hate to see people buy a new frame with bushings and experience premature wear. Great ride, great service up to a point, but they can't stick their heads in the sand over this. Too many people have too much cash tied up in this. There needs to be a definitive answer.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmac999 View Post
    I'm really hoping Keith isn't posting because of Interbike or something. For all of FM's praise and the fact his bushings are great, there is an issue. They've basically admitted as much by moving away from bushings on both the Legend Mark II and the proto Prime. But what about current owners? This issue needs to be addressed. I just want to hear that it is an issue and that it's being taken care of on future bikes and before 2013. I'd hate to see people buy a new frame with bushings and experience premature wear. Great ride, great service up to a point, but they can't stick their heads in the sand over this. Too many people have too much cash tied up in this. There needs to be a definitive answer.
    Hey- again for the record, I agree there should be a solution for those who have had issues.

    Just not sure the core issue has really been identified. Is it really the torque values? Or is it QC? The fact that my pivots (and many others) have been fine, rules out the design, looking at it from a diagnostic perspective.

    I also agree that just switching to bearings isn't the ideal solution- doesn't fix the bikes already purchased.

    So I think the ideal fix would be a retrofit/upgrade kit that could be installed on existing Rune/Pyre/Spiftfire frames.
    • Going to larger diameter bushings would take up any play created by wear from the old bushings, but might require the frame to be faced and chased (which might also fix the original problem).
    • replacement axles (stainless?) would also be required for the larger bushings, and because the old axles wear over time (mine do show wear).
    • Larger diameter bushings and axles would be stiffer and provide more surface area to spread the wear out. Why not add zerk fittings and go with solid axles- easy to lube and stiffer too.


    I think something along these lines is the most realistic and cost effective solution for Banshee. They might have to identify approved vendors who could provide the machining services.
    Sending out warranty frames with the current design would cost a ton of money and possibly not even fix the issue....not ideal.
    Last edited by FM; 09-20-2011 at 02:38 PM.

  44. #44
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    Definitely finding out the source of the problem would be ideal. It's interesting, on my pivots (link and rear triangle) the wearing isn't uniform. In other words, some portions of the wear area are deaper cut.

    Would a new frame be a good solution? Definitely not for Bansee. My bike's out of warranty. I would like a new link and rear at fair price. New axles would be nice as well. Then I could pay close attention to lower torque specs.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Hey- again for the record, I agree there should be a solution for those who have had issues.

    Just not sure the core issue has really been identified. Is it really the torque values? Or is it QC? The fact that my pivots (and many others) have been fine, rules out the design, looking at it from a diagnostic perspective.

    I also agree that just switching to bearings isn't the ideal solution- doesn't fix the bikes already purchased.

    So I think the ideal fix would be a retrofit/upgrade kit that could be installed on existing Rune/Pyre/Spiftfire frames.
    • Going to larger diameter bushings would take up any play created by wear from the old bushings, but might require the frame to be faced and chased (which might also fix the original problem).
    • replacement axles (stainless?) would also be required for the larger bushings, and because the old axles wear over time (mine do show wear).
    • Larger diameter bushings and axles would be stiffer and provide more surface area to spread the wear out. Why not add zerk fittings and go with solid axles- easy to lube and stiffer too.


    I think something along these lines is the most realistic and cost effective solution for Banshee. They might have to identify approved vendors who could provide the machining services.
    Sending out warranty frames with the current design would cost a ton of money and possibly not even fix the issue....not ideal.
    one issue with going oversize is that the frames are 7000 series aluminum. hard to machine after heat treating.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    one issue with going oversize is that the frames are 7000 series aluminum. hard to machine after heat treating.
    I'll leave the details up to Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by <sL4yEr>RuLz View Post
    Definitely finding out the source of the problem would be ideal. It's interesting, on my pivots (link and rear triangle) the wearing isn't uniform. In other words, some portions of the wear area are deaper cut.

    Would a new frame be a good solution? Definitely not for Bansee. My bike's out of warranty. I would like a new link and rear at fair price. New axles would be nice as well. Then I could pay close attention to lower torque specs.
    That's the same for me too, the pivots aren't worn uniformly. Different sides of the same pivots are worn unequally and each worn at an angle.

    Keith offered me a rear triangle at a fair price but I haven't taken the offer yet because I don't feel that the cause/s of the problem has been fully identified and fixed. I don't want to throw good money at a problem that could potentially reoccur if the cause/s of wear are due to design, especially as I feel that part of the issue is that the pivots aren't sealed. And also, because I've followed the recommended maintenance schedule to the letter.

    In my experience, Keith and Banshee have been awesome so I fully expect this to be resolved one way or another.

  48. #48
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    I definitely think one improvement would be to add a bushing bearing surface that isn't metal for the Igus bushings to run against. I am currently looking into getting some nylon shims that Im going to epoxy onto the frame for the chainstay pivots. This way the bushings are running against a smoother, and slightly softer surface. Also, when the shims wear down, I just replace them, rather than watching my frame slowly getting eaten away.

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    Sorry I haven't posted for a while, I have neglected forum duties for the last month due to travelleing, doing trade shows and focusing on new designs.

    The Prime is an example of where Banshee is going in the future, and as you will see we have chosen to go with fully sealed bearings rather than bushings. We realize that riders want to spend more time riding their bikes and less time carrying out routine maintenance, so are switching towards a design which has much less reliance on maintance and torques to run smoothly.

    I've been keeping my head down recently, because I'm spending about 60 hours a week working solely on future designs to have them ready for customers ASAP. I'm hoping that we will have a the Rune V2 ready sooner than initially planned as a reaction to this thread, as we want our customers to be happy.
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    Sorry I haven't posted for a while, I have neglected forum duties for the last month due to travelleing, doing trade shows and focusing on new designs.

    The Prime is an example of where Banshee is going in the future, and as you will see we have chosen to go with fully sealed bearings rather than bushings. We realize that riders want to spend more time riding their bikes and less time carrying out routine maintenance, so are switching towards a design which has much less reliance on maintance and torques to run smoothly.

    I've been keeping my head down recently, because I'm spending about 60 hours a week working solely on future designs to have them ready for customers ASAP. I'm hoping that we will have a the Rune V2 ready sooner than initially planned as a reaction to this thread, as we want our customers to be happy.
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