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  1. #26
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    You guys must all be right since you had the pivot issues, and I haven't

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    You guys must all be right since you had the pivot issues, and I haven't
    Not a question or right or wrong, just trying to keep the ride functioning properly without pivot/frame quirks to sweat about or have to deal with on a somewhat regular basis so we can stay on our bikes longer. I don't know what to say, you must be one of the lucky ones , cause I think just about any of their bushing'ed systems will develop quirks/problems sooner or later, it's just a matter of time and unfortunately for me it was typically a lot sooner than expected later.
    Ride On!

  3. #28
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    Ha, well said Jgusta.

    Here's my theory on torque values, 5nm might be fine for a new frame with tight tolerances.
    Once things get some play (possibly as a result of over-tightening), it would make sense that the play would start to work the pivot bolts loose... requiring more torque to keep the bolt snug.

    This is where I think a washer or spacer is maybe a better fix.

    Perhaps the proper torque is dependant on frame condition...

    This would all help explain why some people have had issues while others haven't.....

  4. #29
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    Look, it just doesn't seem right that I have frame wear due to torquing to suggested specs. Even if I didn't, I don't see how its possible to keep dirt and grime from wearing down your pivots (eventually).

    FM's case is exceptional only because I know him personally and am in constant awe of his bike geekery. The dude knows his **** where I'm more of a "learn from my mistakes" type of guy.

    If any of you ride the holy crap out of your bikes like we do, your not going to feel comfortable selling it without replacing the rear (and I would be happy to do so at a discounted price). I'm sureasshit not going to fart around with homemade spacers.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Ha, well said Jgusta.

    Here's my theory on torque values, 5nm might be fine for a new frame with tight tolerances.
    Once things get some play (possibly as a result of over-tightening), it would make sense that the play would start to work the pivot bolts loose... requiring more torque to keep the bolt snug.

    This is where I think a washer or spacer is maybe a better fix.

    Perhaps the proper torque is dependant on frame condition...

    This would all help explain why some people have had issues while others haven't.....
    Yep, torqueing things down more when a little bit of play becomes evident when bushings are in good shape and whatnot will only accelerate the frame wear while diminishing the play only for the time being like you said. To offset this on my recent new Rune frame, I went ahead and crammed a shim in there early on (within a months time) to stop/minimize the wear and snugged it back up to 5Nm and wholah, no play. But, when hitting a corner hard occasionally, I hear/feel this aweful grind noise in the frame that I had before my first Rune failed and just before I noticed a crack on the second frame I owned. It must be due to poor frame tolerances, simple as that, I'm 3 for 3 now, 100% problem to some degree with the frames instead of the <0.1% that I beleive Keith mentioned frames have developed premature problems or failed. Love how the bike pedals and rides for the most part, but lots of love has to go into to it to keep it riding and even that there is no guarantee that something won't develop sooner or later.
    Ride On!

  6. #31
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    I have to say that some of what QBert and others are saying is true. I have, from day one, taken immense care of this frame (as I do any bike) and as a result, I have never had a bike, or bike part that required so much maintenance in order to keep riding. I even had the ol' 2007 Boxxers, which I took apart every 2–3 weeks and completely tore down every month or so to rebuild (and that was a year that I don't think I will ever ride as much as again). I love working and tinkering on my bikes but this is just too much and is taking away from other necessary maintenance, such as fork rebuilds, brake bleeds and so on.

    In the 12 months that I have owned this bike I have honestly torn down the back end completely, every 5–6 weeks and have many checks on my pivots and bolts in between. I was stoked that I made it almost a full 12 months (even with our really wet spring here, probably the demise of the old bushings) on the original bushings, but upon replacing them noticed wear in the cnc'ed link plate, behind the bushing flange. Even after the excessive amount of time and care on this specific part of this bike, it's still eating itself.

    As others have said, I too fricken love the ride of this bike! Everything about it is perfect—except the bushings/system—and unless something is done about this I too will regrettably be purchasing a different manufacturers frame, potentially sooner than later as I feel nervous with it now.

    I am especially nervous that after all the fantastic customer relations from Keith and Jay at Banshee, any mention of this to them brings nothing? :S Even after many prompt emails with them regarding other parts, this brought nothing… quite concerning.

    Come on guys! Please prove us wrong and come out with a solution/update/upgrade—soon!

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb721 View Post
    I have to say that some of what QBert and others are saying is true. I have, from day one, taken immense care of this frame (as I do any bike) and as a result, I have never had a bike, or bike part that required so much maintenance in order to keep riding. I even had the ol' 2007 Boxxers, which I took apart every 2–3 weeks and completely tore down every month or so to rebuild (and that was a year that I don't think I will ever ride as much as again). I love working and tinkering on my bikes but this is just too much and is taking away from other necessary maintenance, such as fork rebuilds, brake bleeds and so on.

    In the 12 months that I have owned this bike I have honestly torn down the back end completely, every 5–6 weeks and have many checks on my pivots and bolts in between. I was stoked that I made it almost a full 12 months (even with our really wet spring here, probably the demise of the old bushings) on the original bushings, but upon replacing them noticed wear in the cnc'ed link plate, behind the bushing flange. Even after the excessive amount of time and care on this specific part of this bike, it's still eating itself.

    As others have said, I too fricken love the ride of this bike! Everything about it is perfect—except the bushings/system—and unless something is done about this I too will regrettably be purchasing a different manufacturers frame, potentially sooner than later as I feel nervous with it now.

    I am especially nervous that after all the fantastic customer relations from Keith and Jay at Banshee, any mention of this to them brings nothing? :S Even after many prompt emails with them regarding other parts, this brought nothing… quite concerning.

    Come on guys! Please prove us wrong and come out with a solution/update/upgrade—soon!
    agreed. i don't want to feel they are hiding from this issue. like slayer said it can no longer be a 1% issue.

  8. #33
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    I'm in the same boat.
    My experience has been that 5nm is too tight. My frame and links are worn in all pivots after ~ 12 months of riding and I've always tightened my pivots to 5nm using a bike specific torque wrench that only goes upto 15nm. Despite spending Ł60 on a good quality bike specific torque wrench, I'm willing to accept that it could be inaccurate, but even if we assume that it's 20% inaccurate, that's still only a small amount of extra torque and that's enough to wear into the frame. Learning that "finger tight" is much better after being meticulous about torques is a real kick in the balls.

    I agree with qbert, I think the pivot system is too sensitive and over tightening the pivot bolts by small amounts shouldn't result in damage to the frame. So far, I've spent way more on new bushings and pivots in 12 months than I would have done on a full set of quality bearings.
    If this had been a frame that I didn't love, I'd have binned it and moved on a long time ago. The only reason I'm still bothered by this is because I love how the bike rides and I want to stick with it, I thought I'd found the perfect AM bike but the pivot system has been a big disappointment. Feels like I found the perfect girlfriend - beautiful, intelligent, loads of fun but when you get down to business, she turns out to be a man.
    I want to get this fixed, replace the rear end, links, bushings and pivots but I'm concerned that I'll be in the same situation in another 12 months. That would be a waste of money that could have gone to another frame.

    Banshee have provided awesome support so I'm hopeful for a permanent solution for this issue but so far I'm not liking what I'm seeing.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by egginsoup View Post
    If this had been a frame that I didn't love, I'd have binned it and moved on a long time ago. The only reason I'm still bothered by this is because I love how the bike rides and I want to stick with it, I thought I'd found the perfect AM bike but the pivot system has been a big disappointment. Feels like I found the perfect girlfriend - beautiful, intelligent, loads of fun but when you get down to business, she turns out to be a man.

    Banshee have provided awesome support so I'm hopeful for a permanent solution for this issue but so far I'm not liking what I'm seeing.
    Couldn't agree more and I LMAO at your analogy!

  10. #35
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    So, I have a brand new XL Rune in the bike stand waiting on a few small parts to complete. What would you do? Should I check all pivots and re-tighten them using the hand tight plus 1/4 turn and blue loctite method or use the recommended factory spec?

    Also, I agree the Turner system is a great design. I rode an XCE for over five years and never even replaced the bushings; just injected clean grease into them periodically and it kept working smoothly.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qfactor03 View Post
    So, I have a brand new XL Rune in the bike stand waiting on a few small parts to complete. What would you do? Should I check all pivots and re-tighten them using the hand tight plus 1/4 turn and blue loctite method or use the recommended factory spec?

    Also, I agree the Turner system is a great design. I rode an XCE for over five years and never even replaced the bushings; just injected clean grease into them periodically and it kept working smoothly.
    i'd try the 1/4 turn after finger tight. kinda retarded and i really want to hear from keith on this. it's probably your best bet

  12. #37
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    Pretty accurate it's sad to say and just a sad situation overall unfortunately. Mainly cause the bikes do many things quite well (pedal, climb, descend, carve, and jump) and are usually always fun to ride as you mentioned. But IMO, if you can't get a season out of one, let alone a couple seasons out of a frame without having major problems with it, then it's not worth anything in the end. Sorry, you had to deal and move on to something else unexpectedly. I myself have had a love/hate relationship with my Rune frames for almost two years now. Love how it rides for my riding style and for most of the terrain I like to ride on, but hate having to deal with all the intracacies and challenges involved with riding and owning these frames.
    Ride On!

  13. #38
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    Roasted??? Damned I bought a Rune brand new around April, rode it maybe 10 days in the Alps and had a huge play, greased everything before my trip, torqued carefully.

    Can't imagine living/riding this bike in the mountain full time!!!

    The distributor charges me 45 € for a set of bushings, I took 2 or 3 spares!!!

    Then gave up on this frame, actually this was my son frame, got him another bike, full cost : more than 3000€ !!
    Don't think I'll ever sell it, obviuously can't sell it to a friend ! The crappiest frame I ever had !

    NOW you can flame...

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by egginsoup View Post

    Feels like I found the perfect girlfriend - beautiful, intelligent, loads of fun but when you get down to business, she turns out to be a man.
    There have been a load of good analogies in this thread, but none come close to this one!

  15. #40
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    from my experiences its not pivot torque causing the issues?

    but poorly manufactured frames with pool alignment and poor tolerances, and generally a lack of sealing from the outside environment (hint: its a mountain bike!)

    ask any experienced engineer about polymer bushings and they will tell you that they are the ideal choice for pivot applications of limited rotation, as long as you manufacture with very high alignment and high tolerances, and good sealing

    there is a reason the rest of the "bike industry" uses sealed ball bearing : they may not be the ideal choice for pivot applications of limited rotation, but there are much more tolerant of poor frame alignment, lower tolerances and have their own sealing systems

    and if they become graunchy you can replace the entire bearing, with no damage to the frame itself


    the last of many customers I sold a Spitfire to (a friend of mine) suffered 6 months of constant rebuilding the pivots after every weekend with loctite and torque wrench, until the bike became unrideable

    as an mechanical engineer he is no idiot with a torque wrench, but could not live with his dream frame any more as it was just too much hassle and the frame itself was showing considerable wear around the pivot points despite new IGUS bushings

    thankfully the distributor he bought his Spitfire frame from gave him a full warranty credit and he paid only a small upcharge for a Canadian-built FSR style complete bike (!!) which runs on ball bearings with steel hardware

    already he compliments the new bike saying it feels "much more sensitive" and he's not had any issues with pivots?


    hopefully Banshee can swallow their pride and move their Rune and Spitfires to ball bearing pivots as soon as possible - 2013 seems like way too far off, considering that All-Mtn and Trail frames are most serious mountain bike companies "bread and butter" when it comes to keeping paying customers riding the brand

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandersbigbike View Post
    There have been a load of good analogies in this thread, but none come close to this one!
    LMAO! Thank God I wouldn't know.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiggs View Post
    Look everyone, I love these bikes just as much as everyone else on here, but they have issues. I'm not trying to sit here and rant and rave and badmouth Banshee because they seem like cool guys and the bikes RIDE awesome, but... I dealt with these exact same issues on my Spitfire and Keith initially took care of me. I decided to put up with it because I rode the crap out of that bike for a year and pushed it way outside of it's element. It always performed wonderfully, but the bushings wore fast and would develop serious play and knocks if not replaced frequently. I bought a huge amount of bushings direct from Igus and replaced them frequently just to try and prevent the issue. I even tried some other bikes this past year, but always went back to the Spitty. I finally bought a Rune this summer thinking it would be more up to the task of what I ride and that those issues wouldn't surface. Well, after 4 months of use on the frame, the same problems surfaced. Despite running the pivots as loose as possible, yet still eliminating lateral play, the bushings still continue to fail. Bummer. I contacted Keith again and was directed to the distributor in Vancouver this time. They were cool on the phone and told me they'd contact me later in the day with info on replacement parts, etc... Long story short, I never heard back from them and sold both the Spitfire and the Rune. I've dealt with numerous failing parts over the years as we all have, but I've never had issues with pivots on my other bikes. Sure, some notchy bearings here or there, but that's it and that never affected the ride of the bike. And let's be honest, 6nm, no 5nm, no 4nm, no 3nm, no finger tight is all you need is getting ridiculous. It's clearly an inferior system that is very sensitive to tolerances of any type.

    I'm not sure why he hasn't been posting much lately (or I know exactly why he hasn't been posting much lately), but Keith needs to come out and address this issue. Since he's yet to do that, here it goes. I was told by him via email that the Rune will not be upgraded to bearings for another 2 years! He told me this wasn't common knowledge yet, but I'm tired of seeing these threads go on and on about Rune upgrades this and that with no input or updates from them other than "finger tight is all you need" and "we've been running ours for 18 months in blah blah blah with no issues". If you're having problems with your bushings then be prepared to deal with it until you get a different bike or buy the new Rune when it comes out in 2 years. Of course, we all know how release dates go with bike companies so 2 years may be the minimum, but it could be much much longer. In the end, I told him I was sorry to hear this as I wanted to remain a Banshee customer, but that I would not be waiting around for another two years after having two bikes of theirs falter in one year.

    I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I just wanted to go ahead and put this info out there for all of you to consider. Banshee frames are priced very well compared to the competition, but it's still our hard earned money that we're spending on them. No matter what the price, issues like this occurring after only months of riding is disappointing.

    Again, I LOVE the way these bikes ride and have had an absolute blast on both of mine, but this issue is just too common and too damn annoying to ignore any longer.

    I'm really hoping Keith isn't posting because of Interbike or something. For all of FM's praise and the fact his bushings are great, there is an issue. They've basically admitted as much by moving away from bushings on both the Legend Mark II and the proto Prime. But what about current owners? This issue needs to be addressed. I just want to hear that it is an issue and that it's being taken care of on future bikes and before 2013. I'd hate to see people buy a new frame with bushings and experience premature wear. Great ride, great service up to a point, but they can't stick their heads in the sand over this. Too many people have too much cash tied up in this. There needs to be a definitive answer.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmac999 View Post
    I'm really hoping Keith isn't posting because of Interbike or something. For all of FM's praise and the fact his bushings are great, there is an issue. They've basically admitted as much by moving away from bushings on both the Legend Mark II and the proto Prime. But what about current owners? This issue needs to be addressed. I just want to hear that it is an issue and that it's being taken care of on future bikes and before 2013. I'd hate to see people buy a new frame with bushings and experience premature wear. Great ride, great service up to a point, but they can't stick their heads in the sand over this. Too many people have too much cash tied up in this. There needs to be a definitive answer.
    Hey- again for the record, I agree there should be a solution for those who have had issues.

    Just not sure the core issue has really been identified. Is it really the torque values? Or is it QC? The fact that my pivots (and many others) have been fine, rules out the design, looking at it from a diagnostic perspective.

    I also agree that just switching to bearings isn't the ideal solution- doesn't fix the bikes already purchased.

    So I think the ideal fix would be a retrofit/upgrade kit that could be installed on existing Rune/Pyre/Spiftfire frames.
    • Going to larger diameter bushings would take up any play created by wear from the old bushings, but might require the frame to be faced and chased (which might also fix the original problem).
    • replacement axles (stainless?) would also be required for the larger bushings, and because the old axles wear over time (mine do show wear).
    • Larger diameter bushings and axles would be stiffer and provide more surface area to spread the wear out. Why not add zerk fittings and go with solid axles- easy to lube and stiffer too.


    I think something along these lines is the most realistic and cost effective solution for Banshee. They might have to identify approved vendors who could provide the machining services.
    Sending out warranty frames with the current design would cost a ton of money and possibly not even fix the issue....not ideal.
    Last edited by FM; 09-20-2011 at 03:38 PM.

  19. #44
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    Definitely finding out the source of the problem would be ideal. It's interesting, on my pivots (link and rear triangle) the wearing isn't uniform. In other words, some portions of the wear area are deaper cut.

    Would a new frame be a good solution? Definitely not for Bansee. My bike's out of warranty. I would like a new link and rear at fair price. New axles would be nice as well. Then I could pay close attention to lower torque specs.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Hey- again for the record, I agree there should be a solution for those who have had issues.

    Just not sure the core issue has really been identified. Is it really the torque values? Or is it QC? The fact that my pivots (and many others) have been fine, rules out the design, looking at it from a diagnostic perspective.

    I also agree that just switching to bearings isn't the ideal solution- doesn't fix the bikes already purchased.

    So I think the ideal fix would be a retrofit/upgrade kit that could be installed on existing Rune/Pyre/Spiftfire frames.
    • Going to larger diameter bushings would take up any play created by wear from the old bushings, but might require the frame to be faced and chased (which might also fix the original problem).
    • replacement axles (stainless?) would also be required for the larger bushings, and because the old axles wear over time (mine do show wear).
    • Larger diameter bushings and axles would be stiffer and provide more surface area to spread the wear out. Why not add zerk fittings and go with solid axles- easy to lube and stiffer too.


    I think something along these lines is the most realistic and cost effective solution for Banshee. They might have to identify approved vendors who could provide the machining services.
    Sending out warranty frames with the current design would cost a ton of money and possibly not even fix the issue....not ideal.
    one issue with going oversize is that the frames are 7000 series aluminum. hard to machine after heat treating.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    one issue with going oversize is that the frames are 7000 series aluminum. hard to machine after heat treating.
    I'll leave the details up to Keith

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuLz View Post
    Definitely finding out the source of the problem would be ideal. It's interesting, on my pivots (link and rear triangle) the wearing isn't uniform. In other words, some portions of the wear area are deaper cut.

    Would a new frame be a good solution? Definitely not for Bansee. My bike's out of warranty. I would like a new link and rear at fair price. New axles would be nice as well. Then I could pay close attention to lower torque specs.
    That's the same for me too, the pivots aren't worn uniformly. Different sides of the same pivots are worn unequally and each worn at an angle.

    Keith offered me a rear triangle at a fair price but I haven't taken the offer yet because I don't feel that the cause/s of the problem has been fully identified and fixed. I don't want to throw good money at a problem that could potentially reoccur if the cause/s of wear are due to design, especially as I feel that part of the issue is that the pivots aren't sealed. And also, because I've followed the recommended maintenance schedule to the letter.

    In my experience, Keith and Banshee have been awesome so I fully expect this to be resolved one way or another.

  23. #48
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    I definitely think one improvement would be to add a bushing bearing surface that isn't metal for the Igus bushings to run against. I am currently looking into getting some nylon shims that Im going to epoxy onto the frame for the chainstay pivots. This way the bushings are running against a smoother, and slightly softer surface. Also, when the shims wear down, I just replace them, rather than watching my frame slowly getting eaten away.

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    Sorry I haven't posted for a while, I have neglected forum duties for the last month due to travelleing, doing trade shows and focusing on new designs.

    The Prime is an example of where Banshee is going in the future, and as you will see we have chosen to go with fully sealed bearings rather than bushings. We realize that riders want to spend more time riding their bikes and less time carrying out routine maintenance, so are switching towards a design which has much less reliance on maintance and torques to run smoothly.

    I've been keeping my head down recently, because I'm spending about 60 hours a week working solely on future designs to have them ready for customers ASAP. I'm hoping that we will have a the Rune V2 ready sooner than initially planned as a reaction to this thread, as we want our customers to be happy.
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    Sorry I haven't posted for a while, I have neglected forum duties for the last month due to travelleing, doing trade shows and focusing on new designs.

    The Prime is an example of where Banshee is going in the future, and as you will see we have chosen to go with fully sealed bearings rather than bushings. We realize that riders want to spend more time riding their bikes and less time carrying out routine maintenance, so are switching towards a design which has much less reliance on maintance and torques to run smoothly.

    I've been keeping my head down recently, because I'm spending about 60 hours a week working solely on future designs to have them ready for customers ASAP. I'm hoping that we will have a the Rune V2 ready sooner than initially planned as a reaction to this thread, as we want our customers to be happy.
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