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  1. #1101
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    How do you like the XF vector?

  2. #1102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin+M View Post
    How do you like the XF vector?
    I like it, HUGE upgrade over the Float, but that's no surprise. I'm still not sold on air rear shocks though, I haven't been on one yet that's had me saying YES! So, I've ordered the coil sprung HLR. Can't wait to see how the Prime rides with that.

  3. #1103
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    Production Prime Photo/Build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin+M View Post
    How do you like the XF vector?
    Me? I'm using an app/tablet, so I may be missing context. But it's just me and Sane Fred who have posted about them, IIRC, so I'll field it.

    I like it a lot. My Prime is only my second suspended frame, so I'm far from experienced or expert, but the change from the DHX-A was dramatic. The DHX-A suffered from the usual complaints- mid stroke wallowing. To get full travel on 4' to flat, I was running 40% sag. That seemed excessive.

    The Vector HLR has a few processes for you to work through, but not as many as a Cane Creek. I have read that X-Fusion offers some tuning options at time of sale, but I bought mine stock. No experience there. On my 3rd ride, I was on a steep, rubble strewn washed out double track, and the rear wheel just tracked through it. I had never felt anything like that before. I still remember the feeling. It was like the first time I had a Fonseca 40-year old tawny, after only having had cheap port before that. "Oh...! THAT's what it's supposed to be like!"

    There are a lot of interesting options in piggyback air shocks these days, even beyond last spring. But, I think the Vector is a solid, well-priced, and somewhat overlooked option. I don't see anything that makes me consider changing my shock.
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  4. #1104
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    Thanks for the response. I have no complaints with my 02rcx. I can only imagine the vector air would only add to it.

  5. #1105
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    Put my xl prime together last night and it came in at 32.5 lbs. . .

    I have some XT brakes w/ice tech rotors (180f, 160r) coming and a carbon handlebar to replace my 385gm bar. Still think it's gonna be over 31lbs. The only other cost effective place I can save weight is on my tires, but I need wide tires for the sand in the area.

    My previous bike was a 29.8 lb Transition Trans am hardtail, which I was able to break some hill climbing-strava records on (cause the pros near here must not be using strava). Hopefully this beast will climb as well as all the reviews claim, and allow me to ride more of the rocky-gnarly stuff at the nearby resort...
    195 lbs-6'4" Banshee Prime XL
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  6. #1106
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    I build my bikes as light as I can but stop short of putting to light a wheel set or tires to do the job the bike was meant for.

    Don't try to hard chasing weight on a bike like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by unrooted View Post
    Put my xl prime together last night and it came in at 32.5 lbs. . .

    I have some XT brakes w/ice tech rotors (180f, 160r) coming and a carbon handlebar to replace my 385gm bar. Still think it's gonna be over 31lbs. The only other cost effective place I can save weight is on my tires, but I need wide tires for the sand in the area.

    My previous bike was a 29.8 lb Transition Trans am hardtail, which I was able to break some hill climbing-strava records on (cause the pros near here must not be using strava). Hopefully this beast will climb as well as all the reviews claim, and allow me to ride more of the rocky-gnarly stuff at the nearby resort...
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  7. #1107
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    I want to use the bike as it's intended and I want to be able to bomb down hill effectively, but it would be nice if riding up hill was as easy as possible!

    I don't think it will be too great of an issue since it just means I'll be in that much better shape.

    I do wish I would have gone with the stans arch wheels instead of the flow ex, would have saved 3/4 of a lb-all rotational weight! I actually see myself putting the purgatory UST tire I have back on this summer since it seems to help on the gravel over hardpack at mammoth, but that means a good half a pound more than the Ardent EXO.

    At least I don't have to worry about this bike breaking in the next couple of years, that will be my mantra as my lungs and thighs are dying.
    195 lbs-6'4" Banshee Prime XL
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  8. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrooted View Post
    I want to use the bike as it's intended and I want to be able to bomb down hill effectively, but it would be nice if riding up hill was as easy as possible!

    I don't think it will be too great of an issue since it just means I'll be in that much better shape.

    I do wish I would have gone with the stans arch wheels instead of the flow ex, would have saved 3/4 of a lb-all rotational weight! I actually see myself putting the purgatory UST tire I have back on this summer since it seems to help on the gravel over hardpack at mammoth, but that means a good half a pound more than the Ardent EXO.

    At least I don't have to worry about this bike breaking in the next couple of years, that will be my mantra as my lungs and thighs are dying.
    IMO if you are thinking you should have gone Arch EX then you are on the wrong bike.

    That said, I think if you buy a bike like the prime, You should have a couple of wheel options anyway.

    I have a couple of sets of Arch EX's & they just don't give you the nice solid feel of a Flow or Flow EX.

    Save up for some Light Bike carbon rims & get the light & stiff feel from your wheel set.
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  9. #1109
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    Well that's good to hear that the flow ex has more upsides than just durability. I wish I could ridey bike! Maybe a butt cold night ride? Otherwise it'll be over a week wait!
    195 lbs-6'4" Banshee Prime XL
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    PLEASE GIVE ME NEGATIVE REP!

  10. #1110
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    IMO if you are thinking you should have gone Arch EX then you are on the wrong bike.
    I agree with this. The Prime is a great climber. But it's not a lightweight XC/trail frame.
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  11. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrooted View Post
    Well that's good to hear that the flow ex has more upsides than just durability. I wish I could ridey bike! Maybe a butt cold night ride? Otherwise it'll be over a week wait!
    I still do about 70% of my ridding at night, I love the dark & it makes ridding time easier to find
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  12. #1112
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    IMO if you are thinking you should have gone Arch EX then you are on the wrong bike.
    Agreed! Put another way....if you go lighter than flows, you will inevitably feel the wheels flex while the frame holds true- not good. Carbon rims can get you even more stiffness, at that same weight. But I don't think you can save much weight without undermining the frame, in terms of stiffness.

    I think I can get my medium prime down below 31lbs without compromise, but I'm 175lbs and thats with a 1x drivetrain- so 32 for an XL is totally reasonable.

    I have ridden well-reviewed AM 29'ers, including carbon ones, and easily flexed the tires into the seat/chain stays while cornering. You won't have that problem with the prime and flows.

  13. #1113
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    Absolutely agree, Prime is definitely a Flow kind of bike, anything lighter/narrower and you really are neutering it. FYI, my pre-production XL weighed in just a shade over 34lbs with full XT build, Flow/Pro2 wheels and pedals, so you're right at around 32.5lbs with the production frame. Don't let the weight discourage you, it climbs like a goat (tweaks were made to production, so is even better) and as you say, you will get stronger because of it and when you point it down, there is no stopping it, just hold on tight As FM said, stiff as all get out, you will hold lines in the chunk like you've never done before, it will inspire you to want to try/do more, be careful and do not let it lead you too far out of your comfort zone to quickly
    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    IMO if you are thinking you should have gone Arch EX then you are on the wrong bike.
    Save up for some Light Bike carbon rims & get the light & stiff feel from your wheel set.
    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I agree with this. The Prime is a great climber. But it's not a lightweight XC/trail frame.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    I think I can get my medium prime down below 31lbs without compromise, but I'm 175lbs and thats with a 1x drivetrain- so 32 for an XL is totally reasonable.

    I have ridden well-reviewed AM 29'ers, including carbon ones, and easily flexed the tires into the seat/chain stays while cornering. You won't have that problem with the prime and flows.
    Absolutely agree. Night riding down here means cooler rides and makes old trails you're too familiar with new again, just make sure and get yourself a good bar and helmet light and you're set.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzzanic
    I still do about 70% of my ridding at night, I love the dark & it makes ridding time easier to find
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  14. #1114
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    Cool, thanks guys, I have another question: how much drop do you guys have from saddle to handlebars? I have a ton of spacers under the stem and a riser but still have 3 or so inches of drop (when I'm not on the bike). The bike feels like a monster truck though, I road laps in my front yard yesterday and I could plow over almost anything 1/4 of wheel height.

    I'm definately going for a night ride tonight, last night I had to make dinner for guests.
    195 lbs-6'4" Banshee Prime XL
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  15. #1115
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    Production Prime Photo/Build thread

    I have one 5mm spacer under my stem and when my Reverb is all the way down, the saddle and bars are roughly the same height.
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  16. #1116
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    A wheel/rim question(s)... Amongst other things.

    I've been following this build thread as well as anything I can find elsewhere since I've decided that the Banshee Prime is going to be my next bike.
    I'm currently in the planning stages of my build.
    Specifically I'm looking at wheels/rims now. I've spent the last 2 weeks reading through the almost 5000 posts of the (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rim thread in the 29er Components forum. I've also seen the recent posts in this thread relating to the carbon rims from Light Bicycle.

    My question/concern is whether these rims will stand up to the abuse that I will deliver. I've seen pics of FM riding his Prime on the same/similar terrain and features/stunts that I ride but he looks to be half my size. I'm 6'6" and 245ish geared up. If I remember correctly FM and few others with the Prime are riding the Light Bicycle carbon rims as well.

    I'm a bit of a smashy rider. I'm by no means a hack but I don't always choose the smoothest line. I choose the line that I feel will get me to where I need to be. I also don't shy away from drops, jumps or steep gnarl.

    I've been riding a Kona Honzo for the past 2 seasons here in Whistler and in the surrounding areas - Squamish and Pemberton. I've gone through quite a few freehubs and rims in those 2 seasons. I realize that the Honzo is an HT and the rear wheel/rim takes way more abuse than a FS bike. But my other bikes (26") past and present have been FS and I've had to replace rear rims and freehubs somewhat regularly as well.

    My tentative build (depending on finances):

    Frame: XL Prime - red or ano black

    Shock: X-Fusion Vector or CCDBa-CS (or whatever the choices are in my region when buying the bike)

    Fork: RS Pike 140 or 150 or X-Fusion Trace

    Drivetrain: SRAM - X9 or XO 2x10 with carbon cranks possibly.

    Bars, Stem, Saddle, Pedals: Chromag - bars and stem first choice would be the new BZA 780mm carbon bars and BZA-35 stem, Trailmaster LTD or Moon saddle, Scarab pedals (clipless choice is the new CB Mallet DH pedals)

    Seatpost: either a Stealth Reverb 150mm or a KS Lev 150mm

    Wheels: custom build? - Light Bicycle wide carbon rims (35mm outer width with the extra layers of carbon for strength). I'm looking at the 12x150mm axle spacing option as that would be the burlier build for wheels. My concern is that if I smash the rear wheel I'm limited in quick replacement options while the main wheel gets repaired or replaced. This is why I'm also considering 12x142mm rear spacing.
    I guess I could just order the 142mm dropouts in case I need them.
    The hubs that I've been looking at are the DTSwiss 240s because of their star ratchet freehub system.
    Other wheels I've looking at have been Industry 9 Gravity 29 wheelsets and the eThirteen TRS Enduro 29 wheelset.
    I've been running the SunRinglé Charger Pro wheelset on my Honzo for the past 2 seasons but they are flexy under me and have been through warranty 3 times now for freehub issues.

    Keep posting the action pics. It keeps my stoke and drive alive for this bike!


    TL;DR - I'm a tall heavy guy who rides very hard. Looking to be convinced that the cheap chinese carbon 29er rims will last under me riding in the Whistler region. Opinions welcome on my build choices.

  17. #1117
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    I ride both 240s and e*thirteen hubs, mine are LG1+. The DT's are on my Paradox, the LG1+'s are on my Prime. I've got several years on my DT's, little over 1 year on my e*thirteens. I like them both. The e*thirteen doesn't roll quite as easy as the 240s, but the free hub engagement is every bit as good, IMO, although the LG uses pawls. I really don't prefer one over the other, I'd take either.

  18. #1118
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    @Optimus,
    The reason I've been looking at the 240s hubs with the star ratchet freehub is because all of my freehub failures have been with the freehub cracking/breaking where the pawls sit in the freehub.
    All of my research and question asking has led me to believe that the star ratchet freehub will last a lot longer under my weight and power delivery.

    I know that quicker engaging hubs reduces my failure rate but not by much. The few quicker engagement hubs I've had only lasted a month and half to 2 months longer.
    On average I go through 2 freehubs in a season no matter the bike or wheelset. I'm hoping that if I spend the $$ on the 240s hubs it will substantially reduce my replacement cycle.

    I'm a mtb coach so I spend a lot of time on my bike whether it's at work or on my days off. I probably ride about 150+ days in a season. Because of this and because I'm tall and heavy all my bike parts need to be burly.

  19. #1119
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    Derby rims only for you IMO.

    The LB rims already have you worried & that will slow you down.
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  20. #1120
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    Rideeverything, I have had zero issues with my 240's. I'm 205ish fully geared, riding lots of high speed chunk and brutal little climbs, I tend to mash. The 36 tooth star ratchet is very nice, very positive engagement. Also, low maintenance.

  21. #1121
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    Derby rims only for you IMO.

    The LB rims already have you worried & that will slow you down.
    I have looked at the Derby rims but they add more to my final cost. However, I could just save more money before purchase so that I don't have to spend more in the future with replacements.

    That being said my rear Charger Pro wheel is not long for this world and up until I put my Honzo away for the snowboard I was charging it hard.
    Although, on my last ride I did hold back and not send one of the drops on a new trail I was riding. But there were a few things other than just my rear wheel that had me holding back.

    But, yes, I understand what you're saying.

  22. #1122
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    Quote Originally Posted by RideEverything View Post
    I have looked at the Derby rims but they add more to my final cost. However, I could just save more money before purchase so that I don't have to spend more in the future with replacements.

    That being said my rear Charger Pro wheel is not long for this world and up until I put my Honzo away for the snowboard I was charging it hard.
    Although, on my last ride I did hold back and not send one of the drops on a new trail I was riding. But there were a few things other than just my rear wheel that had me holding back.

    But, yes, I understand what you're saying.
    You will save money with the derby rims, Or you could go LB & then derby if you would rather spend more money.

    Look at your post that says your weight, height & riding style.

    You need a deep section rim.
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  23. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by RideEverything View Post
    If I remember correctly FM and few others with the Prime are riding the Light Bicycle carbon rims as well.
    No, FM is riding Eastons that he bought used, and has had good experience with those. He's a lighter dude; lighter than you and I. Muzzanic is right - if you're going to do carbon, go Derby at the start and save yourself the money and time. I'm 225, and if/when I make the switch to carbon that's the only way I'm going to go. Despite FM's accolades, I don't want a system wheel, and mikesee seems happy with the Derbys too.

    I have been really impressed with MTX-33s, but they don't do tubeless and they aren't light. Due to repeated hub failure (see below) I'm on my mid-weight wheelset which is Stan's FR rims, and they have been bomber for years, under 3 frames to date. I think the Flow EX is roughly comparable, although perhaps slightly less robust.

    Good build spec. My random thoughts:

    150mm rear. You're bigger than I am, riding bigger trails. 150mm.

    I haven't used 240s, but I have ridden the hell out of 340s and 440s, and am on a 350 now, and been really impressed with the longevity. I guess I haven't compared them to a really high-engagement hub like a King or I9, but I haven't really felt the lack. I ride rock gardens too, but I suppose it's what you know. I'll have my other wheel built around a Hadley this winter, after I ditch the Hope.

    I have the X-Fusion. I really like it. My buddy has gone through the honeymoon with his CCDBA (on a Chilcotin) and I've seen similar sentiments on the Knolly forum, too. But the shock has a lot of fans, more than detractors. Since you can get the Prime direct with a CCDBA it changes the calculus a bit, but the X-Fusion is a lot cheaper when buying just a shock.

    Go 150 on the fork. I'd recommend the Pike, based on word-of-mouth. I don't know anything about the X-Fusion fork, and while I'm a fan of my shock, the word I've heard is that the difference in stiffness between the 34 and Pike is akin to the difference between the 32 and the 34.

    Chromag cockpit: me too. Stem, bar, saddle. I love the Lynx DT. I have had them on all my bikes for the last 3 years, and I have a couple spares in my parts bin. One new, one torn up.

    I went 2x10 with X9 mostly due to cost. I'd have been happy with the carbon X0 crank, but I was shaving dollars here and there. I do like the spider(less) options the SRAM cranks offer.

    I haven't used a KS, but after 2 seasons on a Reverb, that's what I'd buy if I were doing it again. My Reverb was rebuilt in March and it needs it again.

    Hope some of that helps.
    Last edited by evasive; 12-21-2013 at 12:38 AM. Reason: clarification
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  24. #1124
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    Have to agree with Muzz on this one. If you want some peace of mind and the knowledge that you've got good support and a good rim, I wouldn't trust any of those Chinese rims that direct, definitely go for the Derby's and get some proper CS. Not worth saving a few hundred to have that nagging worry in the back of your mind all the time. Personally I'd have to win the lottery to ride carbon rims with our rocks down here, just don't trust them and what could happen failure wise from a good contact/scratch with the coral, I can see the damage an alu rims takes and my Stans Flows have held up well to them, but I'm only 175-185lbs geared, don't leave the ground much, fairly finesse rider, but do love my nasty, rocky chunk. Just built up some WTB i25 ST rims, will see how they hold up compared to my 5 year old Flows - definitely cheaper and feel very burly, will be going on my rigid mainly, but will also throw them on the Prime to test.

    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    Derby rims only for you IMO.
    The LB rims already have you worried & that will slow you down.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??
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  25. #1125
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    I liked my i23's better than Flow's, but wanted wider. I put on the Flow EX's because the i25's weren't available yet, I'm thinking about rebuilding into some i25's. IMO, the EX's are plenty strong enough, but the i23's at least were a bit thicker material than Flow's. I expect the i25's to be similarly thicker. The recent posts here about carbon rims got me to thinking, but like you LyNx, I'm concerned about rocks/damage. Even with DT being a bit pricey, I would not hesitate an instant with buying another 240's, solid performance and reliability, with my usage. I only put the e*thirteen's on my Prime because they were a new release from The Hive and I wanted to try something different from the masses.

  26. #1126
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    Hey RideEverything!

    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    No, FM is riding Eastons that he bought used, and has had good experience with those. Despite FM's accolades, I don't want a system wheel, and mikesee seems happy with the Derbys too.
    Yes, true... I bought my Haven Carbon 29's used and have 2 seasons on them (so 3 seasons total). I weigh 175. The original hub guts sucked, but by now I've replaced the F&R guts 3x and invested less than $50. I like that their hubs are compatible with all standards, parts are dirt cheap, and I have all the available axles now. My only complaint is that you have to be careful who you deal with at Easton CS, I've had two botched parts orders when I talked to the softball dept!

    Regarding system wheels, they have some pros. I have yet to ride a "standard" wheelset that's as stiff or light as system wheels bult up with comparable rims. The system wheels allow engineered weight savings, and a big pro is that many use the same spoke length F&R, R&L.

    First ride on carbon wheels was eye-opening for me. The weight difference is negligible, but the difference in stiffness can be compared to going from QR to thru-axle. So I think 150mm rear is an optional, but I'd definitely recommend carbon rims.

    As much as I like the Havens, I'd go Derby's if I were you.

    Otherwise your build looks good. I would definitely recommend the 150mm Pike, for both the travel and the stiffness. And I would also vote for the Kindhock Lev, 150mm drop option! 150mm drop is so nice for the uber-steeps, which I know you have plenty of! I have so many reverb horror stories, no need to go there.

    You will love the Prime, it's perfect for sea-to-sky trail action!

  27. #1127
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    Thanks for the replies.

    I only briefly looked at Derby rims but I'll put the research hat on and dig deeper.
    My main reason for looking at carbon rims is for the strength and stiffness factor. Being that I'm large anything that can flex will flex on my bike.
    I'm not worried about system wheels. I've had the Mavic Crossmax SX wheels for several years now. I've gone through a few freehubs and broken a few spokes but never had an issue replacing them. Although I do live in the centre of the universe for all things mountain bike.

    I've had a Reverb for the last 3 seasons and only have had one issue in that entire time. I picked up a Lev 150 in the middle of this past summer and on my last ride this season it stopped working. I won't jump on the hate wagon against KS. I've sent it off for warranty and hopefully it'll run for a long time after that.
    I like both the Lev and the Reverb. I'm only looking at the Stealth Reverb because it comes in a 150mm travel adjust.

    I definitely like the look of the X-Fusion shocks. Either the Vector Air or the O2. Everything I've read about them has been positive.
    I'm definitely a set and forget kind of guy and I think the X-Fusion shocks would be those kind of shocks.
    The bike nerd in me very much likes the CCDBa but I think the glamour might wear off quickly if it takes too long to set up properly. The other negative is the price.

  28. #1128
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    The Derby is a wide & stiff/strong, carbon rim.


    Quote Originally Posted by RideEverything View Post
    Thanks for the replies.

    I only briefly looked at Derby rims but I'll put the research hat on and dig deeper.
    My main reason for looking at carbon rims is for the strength and stiffness factor. Being that I'm large anything that can flex will flex on my bike.
    I'm not worried about system wheels. I've had the Mavic Crossmax SX wheels for several years now. I've gone through a few freehubs and broken a few spokes but never had an issue replacing them. Although I do live in the centre of the universe for all things mountain bike.

    I've had a Reverb for the last 3 seasons and only have had one issue in that entire time. I picked up a Lev 150 in the middle of this past summer and on my last ride this season it stopped working. I won't jump on the hate wagon against KS. I've sent it off for warranty and hopefully it'll run for a long time after that.
    I like both the Lev and the Reverb. I'm only looking at the Stealth Reverb because it comes in a 150mm travel adjust.

    I definitely like the look of the X-Fusion shocks. Either the Vector Air or the O2. Everything I've read about them has been positive.
    I'm definitely a set and forget kind of guy and I think the X-Fusion shocks would be those kind of shocks.
    The bike nerd in me very much likes the CCDBa but I think the glamour might wear off quickly if it takes too long to set up properly. The other negative is the price.
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  29. #1129
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    Production Prime Photo/Build thread

    I don't have any concerns about system wheels. I just prefer to have my choice of hubs and rims and then have the wheels built by someone I know and trust.
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  30. #1130
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    The Derby is a wide & stiff/strong, carbon rim.
    Also built in China. Not saying that is good or bad, just saying. But, built to Derby specs. Then again, what really is built in America anymore, and why would that necessarily be any better? I'm talking quality, not patriotism or national financial security. The reviews that I read said that there was only one Derby failure reported to date, and that was from a severe impact. I found no mention of how many Derby rims were out on the trails.

  31. #1131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Also built in China. Not saying that is good or bad, just saying. But, built to Derby specs. Then again, what really is built in America anymore, and why would that necessarily be any better? I'm talking quality, not patriotism or national financial security. The reviews that I read said that there was only one Derby failure reported to date, and that was from a severe impact. I found no mention of how many Derby rims were out on the trails.
    I'm not trying to knock LB rims, I have had 2 sets built onto I9 hubs & they are both going strong.

    I also have a set of Reynolds carbon Rims on I9 Torch hubs ( I9 Trail Carbon 32 ) & like the deeper section rim when hitting things hard.

    I really like the deep section carbon rims like Reynolds, Derby & Enve.

    My next sets of wheels will be Derby/ I9 Torch & I9 Torch Tail 32 ( Alloy ) for my wife ( she doesn't want carbon )

    I'm selling up all my I9 Enduro hub wheels & replacing them with the I9 Torch options
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  32. #1132
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    I' m going to buy a RS PIKE 150 for my Prime.
    I can get either 51mm or the 46mm offset; Is anybody using a 51mm offset with benefits or this feature is negligible.

    Keith.. what'd you suggest?

  33. #1133
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    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    I' m going to buy a RS PIKE 150 for my Prime.
    I can get either 51mm or the 46mm offset; Is anybody using a 51mm offset with benefits or this feature is negligible.

    Keith.. what'd you suggest?
    I had a 140mm 46mm offset on for a short while, then switched up to a 150mm 51mm offset. I felt no difference with the change in offset, but an extra 10mm of travel never hurts. Then again, when I changed forks, I also went from a 2.3 Butcher to a 2.5 DHF. That tire change may have masked some of the difference in offset. Theoretically, the 51mm is the better choice.

  34. #1134
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    some say 51 mm offset make difference, other say they don't feel any...
    I'm not that sensible.... but theory claim 51mm would be and advantage in terms of maneuverability, and make 29er closer to 26er for nimbleness.

  35. #1135
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    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    some say 51 mm offset make difference, other say they don't feel any...
    I'm not that sensible.... but theory claim 51mm would be and advantage in terms of maneuverability, and make 29er closer to 26er for nimbleness.
    You'll be completely happy with either 140mm or 150, 46mm offset or 51. I had a Pivot Firebird that to me felt less nimble than my Prime, but I never really worry how my Prime feels compared to anything else. I just know that my Prime, as I've spec'd it out, is hands down the best bike that I have ever owned. There is never a time that I wish for "more" bike. It climbs remarkably, it descends through chunk amazingly, it handles tight and twisties with ease, it low gear rock crawls like it is velcro, it hi speed handles with complete confidence. It's rock solid, it's tough, for my use it is perfect.

  36. #1136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    You'll be completely happy with either 140mm or 150, 46mm offset or 51. I had a Pivot Firebird that to me felt less nimble than my Prime, but I never really worry how my Prime feels compared to anything else. I just know that my Prime, as I've spec'd it out, is hands down the best bike that I have ever owned. There is never a time that I wish for "more" bike. It climbs remarkably, it descends through chunk amazingly, it handles tight and twisties with ease, it low gear rock crawls like it is velcro, it hi speed handles with complete confidence. It's rock solid, it's tough, for my use it is perfect.
    I know I'be happy with any variation of PIKE, otherwise I'm coming from 7 months on my PRIME whit a REVELATION and my face when riding was always like this ...but some days ago I tried a pike at a bike shop and has been love at first sight.
    I didn't mean to compare PRIME with anything else ( I really think is one of a kind) but I just wanted to know what differences I'd have found picking one offset or the other.

  37. #1137
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    Not scientific at all, but I owned a rode a Paradox for over 1.5 years before I got my Prime, I figured that the extra 3"+ WB difference would make a huge difference in handling/feel more sluggish, I was wrong. While the 3"+ definitely makes it harder to get around tight corner lined with rocks or close trees/bush, the steering itself doesn't feel much slower than the Paradox and I attribute this to running the 51mm offset F34-140mm as compared to the 46mm offset Minute 120mm on the Paradox. Now don't get me wrong, compared to my Paradox, overall the Prime feels like a tank, but it is not a handful like one would expect a bike with a 3" longer WB and 5-6lbs heavier.

    I'd opt for the 51mm offset, and maybe get a tad livelier handling than get the 46mm if you can find one that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    some say 51 mm offset make difference, other say they don't feel any...
    I'm not that sensible.... but theory claim 51mm would be and advantage in terms of maneuverability, and make 29er closer to 26er for nimbleness.
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  38. #1138
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I'd opt for the 51mm offset, and maybe get a tad livelier handling than get the 46mm if you can find one that is.
    As would I, in fact, I did. But if one can't be found, I wouldn't hesitate to put on the 46mm, or if a 150mm can't be found I also wouldn't hesitate to put on the 140. I don't doubt the numbers involved with offset and rake and handling, but I think that a rider would have to be really in tune to notice a difference, an then once you were used to what you had you would forget all about it. When I took my 140mm 46mm off my Prime and put it on my Paradox, at first it felt very strange compared to the 120mm F34 Talas that I took off. In fact, at first I almost didn't like it. Now, after a few rides, I'm setting new PR's all over the place, climbing and descending. I've been riding it so hard that I even put 2.3 Minions on it instead of the lighter tires that I had planned. It is a smooth transition from Prime to Paradox and back. My Paradox is pretty much just a lighter rougher riding version of my Prime, a "tank lite".

  39. #1139
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    Hi, hello, welcome to my world Sadly this is me, I can feel the difference in geometry when switching from 2.25" rear/2.4" front to matching 2.4" F&R In fact just did this when I threw the WTB i25 ST rimmed wheels onto the Prime to test them - had set it in the slack setting and it had been riding pretty good running a 2.25" Smorgasbord rear/2.4" Chunky Monkey front, then I put on the WTB wheels with 2.4" Ardent rear/2.4" Chunky Monkey front and guess I was more trying to evaluate the wheels and didn't notice as much the nice geo tweak it made running balanced 2.4" tyres, but when I swapped back to the Primes normal wheels with 2.25" R/2.4" it felt so choppered out in comparison I thought the shock needed air. Had noticed that despite being in the slack setting it was still climbing amazing, but didn't quite put it all together till the switch back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    As would I, in fact, I did. But if one can't be found, I wouldn't hesitate to put on the 46mm, or if a 150mm can't be found I also wouldn't hesitate to put on the 140. I don't doubt the numbers involved with offset and rake and handling, but I think that a rider would have to be really in tune to notice a difference, an then once you were used to what you had you would forget all about it. When I took my 140mm 46mm off my Prime and put it on my Paradox, at first it felt very strange compared to the 120mm F34 Talas that I took off. In fact, at first I almost didn't like it. Now, after a few rides, I'm setting new PR's all over the place, climbing and descending. I've been riding it so hard that I even put 2.3 Minions on it instead of the lighter tires that I had planned. It is a smooth transition from Prime to Paradox and back. My Paradox is pretty much just a lighter rougher riding version of my Prime, a "tank lite".
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  40. #1140
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    Fortunately, I am not quite so sensitive to suspension/rake/offset changes. But I'll tell you what bugs the daylights right out of me, if one brake lever pulls to just a slightly different point than the other. I'm constantly fussing with my brakes. The Zee's that I put on my Prime need a wrench to adjust, no tool free on those. The fact that I have to actually get a tool out to twiddle with them has me almost to the point of putting new brakes on, LOL.

  41. #1141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Fortunately, I am not quite so sensitive to suspension/rake/offset changes. But I'll tell you what bugs the daylights right out of me, if one brake lever pulls to just a slightly different point than the other. I'm constantly fussing with my brakes. The Zee's that I put on my Prime need a wrench to adjust, no tool free on those. The fact that I have to actually get a tool out to twiddle with them has me almost to the point of putting new brakes on, LOL.
    I'm the same way. Takes me half a season to fiddle with the reach adjustment knob before finally being satisfied. Always turn them a bit out or in whenever I stop to get them right. But when I do, oh boy.
    konahonzo

  42. #1142
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    Ok thanks everybody.
    just for the sake of theory, some suggestions and the fact that I'm actually increasing A to C length from my previous Revelation, I see good reason to pick 51mm offset.
    Last edited by filbike; 12-28-2013 at 05:15 PM.

  43. #1143
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    Alright,
    I've read through the entire Derby Rims 29er thread and feel convinced that these should be the carbon rims I ride. Price-wise they are in reach compared to the big name companies and all the rider reviews I can find are very positive.

    Now I just have to decide whether or not to buy soon or wait for the bike saving finances to accumulate. Derby has them currently listed for $299 compared to the usual $379.
    Decisions, decisions!


    A few questions for those who might know:

    -Is there a big difference in wheel strength between a 142mm hub and a 150mm hub? Theoretically, yes, there is, but does anyone have any real word ride time on the two hub sizes? Do you notice a difference? I noticed a huge difference when going from the QR to 12x142 on my Honzo. Is the difference similar to that change?
    I'm okay with anecdotal evidence.

    -With the 150mm sized hub is there an issue with getting the right chainline set up on the Prime. I'll admit to not really knowing anything about this. With all the bikes I've built over the years I've just put the drivetrain together and made the adjustments so that there was minimal to no rubbing with the chain and components. I've never taken a ruler to anything to check if I had the right chainline.

    - With the Derby rims being deep, which shortens the length of the spokes needed, is there a good hub out there that has tall flanges to make the spokes even shorter?
    The reason I have been looking at the eThirteen TRS+ hubs/wheels is because of the giant flange sizes of their hubs. My hesitation in purchasing these hubs is that they aren't widely available yet and they have run-of-the-mill engagement freehubs. There aren't a lot of reviews for these hubs/wheels yet.
    I understand that shorter spokes make the wheels stronger so a deep rim and tall flanged hub should make a close to indestructible wheel?

    Currently, I'm looking at the Heavy Duty 29er 35mm Derby rims and DTSwiss 350 15x100mm/12x142or150mm hubs. I was looking at the 240s hubs but the bank account thinks it's better to go with the 350's.


    Wheels have always been the weakest point on all of the bikes I've had. I'm a giant who is heavy that rides very hard.
    With this build I'm looking to splash out a bit more so that I don't have to continually spend money fixing my wheels or having to warranty them.

  44. #1144
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    Quote Originally Posted by RideEverything View Post
    With the 150mm sized hub is there an issue with getting the right chainline set up on the Prime. I'll admit to not really knowing anything about this. With all the bikes I've built over the years I've just put the drivetrain together and made the adjustments so that there was minimal to no rubbing with the chain and components. I've never taken a ruler to anything to check if I had the right chainline.

    - With the Derby rims being deep, which shortens the length of the spokes needed, is there a good hub out there that has tall flanges to make the spokes even shorter?
    The reason I have been looking at the eThirteen TRS+ hubs/wheels is because of the giant flange sizes of their hubs. My hesitation in purchasing these hubs is that they aren't widely available yet and they have run-of-the-mill engagement freehubs. There aren't a lot of reviews for these hubs/wheels yet.
    My chainline is fine with a 150mm hub. I'm riding the LG1+ hubs, I have absolutely zero issues with the engagement with a years worth of desert abuse. I did break a rear axle sleeve, but it was a gen1 hub and e*thirteen promptly sent me out an upgrade kit with a steel sleeve which brings it to gen2 specs. I have had zero issues since.

  45. #1145
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    Can't honestly answer the 142 vs 150 question, but will point out that for most hubs it's just an end cap swap on a normal 135mm wide hub, i.e. the flanges are no further out/apart than a standard 135mm hub, a 150mm hub the flanges are moved out so that it is a dishless wheel, or it should be.

    As to any issue running a 150mm rear on the Prime with a "normal" 73mm BB? None what so ever, in fact, I run a Hope Pro2 Trials/SS 135mm rear on my Prime and it builds up dishless, run 6 cogs and the chainline is actually about as perfect as it gets. FYI, the granny cog is about the same place as where the 3-4th largest cog would be on a normal 9spd cassette on a 135mm hub.

    Can't help you with hubs, as I'm a light guy and have never had an issue with any, but your thinking of trying to find ones with hig flanges is a good one and build yourself some bomb proof wheels. If you're a heavy guy, a bit more weight for a lot less $$ isn't a bad thing, especially in the hubs as they aren't really where having weight matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by RideEverything View Post
    Alright, A few questions for those who might know:

    -Is there a big difference in wheel strength between a 142mm hub and a 150mm hub? Theoretically, yes, there is, but does anyone have any real word ride time on the two hub sizes? Do you notice a difference? I noticed a huge difference when going from the QR to 12x142 on my Honzo. Is the difference similar to that change?
    I'm okay with anecdotal evidence.

    -With the 150mm sized hub is there an issue with getting the right chainline set up on the Prime. I'll admit to not really knowing anything about this. With all the bikes I've built over the years I've just put the drivetrain together and made the adjustments so that there was minimal to no rubbing with the chain and components. I've never taken a ruler to anything to check if I had the right chainline.

    Wheels have always been the weakest point on all of the bikes I've had. I'm a giant who is heavy that rides very hard.
    With this build I'm looking to splash out a bit more so that I don't have to continually spend money fixing my wheels or having to warranty them.
    Last edited by LyNx; 12-29-2013 at 01:28 PM. Reason: To better explain
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  46. #1146
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Can't honestly answer the 142 vs 150 question, but will point out that for most hubs it's just an end cap swap, i.e. the flanges are no further out/apart than a standard 135mm hub, a 150mm hub the flanges are moved out so that it is a dishless wheel, or it should be.
    Maybe I'm missing something- my understanding is that there are 2 schools of 150mm hubs:
    • Ones that have the same flange spacing as a 135 hub, so there is no benefit at all.
    • Ones that do have a wider flange spacing for more equal spoke tension.

    Either way your rotor mounts sit farther off-center, so there is no way to swamp a 150mm hub to 142 or 135mm. The difference is in the hub shell, not the end caps.

    I would go 142mm, mainly just for future proofing, seems like 150mm is kind of a dying standard.

  47. #1147
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something- my understanding is that there are 2 schools of 150mm hubs:
    • Ones that have the same flange spacing as a 135 hub, so there is no benefit at all.
    • Ones that do have a wider flange spacing for more equal spoke tension.

    Either way your rotor mounts sit farther off-center, so there is no way to swamp a 150mm hub to 142 or 135mm. The difference is in the hub shell, not the end caps.

    I would go 142mm, mainly just for future proofing, seems like 150mm is kind of a dying standard.
    My LG1+ rear is substantially wider than a 135mm, plus the huge flanges, has made for a very solid rear wheel. Is 150mm dying, or was it never really that big in the first place??

  48. #1148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Is 150mm dying, or was it never really that big in the first place??
    Ah- good point. Plus I suppose, if you're looking at DH bikes, it's actually pretty common. I had a FR bike with a 150 rear (DT hub) for a few years.

  49. #1149
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Ah- good point. Plus I suppose, if you're looking at DH bikes, it's actually pretty common. I had a FR bike with a 150 rear (DT hub) for a few years.
    The big names in hubs all offer a 150mm, so maybe it will just never be that big in "mainstream consumer mtbing". But then again, look at the 26" to 29", then out of nowhere here comes a 27.5". Who knows where the industry is headed next.

  50. #1150
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    Sorry, guess I assumed everyone would know I was talking "normal" 135mm hub conversion to 142mm with the end caps, corrected it so it makes sense now for everyone

    Little FYI, despite being the scum of the MTB world, SpecialED are the only ones who have used the 142mm standard to it's fullest potential with their 142mm+ iteration which actually sees the flanges spaced further out on the drive side, thereby adding in a less dished wheel and hence why swapping between a normal 142mm wheel and one that uses the 142mm+ you have to do quite a bit of adjustment to the RD.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something- my understanding is that there are 2 schools of 150mm hubs:
    • Ones that have the same flange spacing as a 135 hub, so there is no benefit at all.
    • Ones that do have a wider flange spacing for more equal spoke tension.

    Either way your rotor mounts sit farther off-center, so there is no way to swamp a 150mm hub to 142 or 135mm. The difference is in the hub shell, not the end caps.

    I would go 142mm, mainly just for future proofing, seems like 150mm is kind of a dying standard.
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