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  1. #551
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    Once again, I think riding style & intended purpose need to be considered here with regards to "proper" fit. If one is looking to build a more xc-ish frame, I'm not sure the Prime is ever going to be considered ideal. And you certainly can't select a frame size for the Prime based off of the fit of a previous xc style bike. Sure, if you're a clyde, and simply want the extra burly chassis (as well as the corresponding weight), it would be possible to get by with the Prime pressed into xc/trail riding....however, once again, I can't see the overall ride being ideal.

    If Trail/AM riding is more your intended purpose for the bike, there is a lot of benefit in riding the smallest frame you can fit...


  2. #552
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    What does the prime ride like with a 140mm fork??

  3. #553
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    Fantastic ! It's what most have been riding them with, very few have used 150mm forks, mostly been a wide variety of the 140mm travel - RS Rev, Marz , F34. Handling seems very balanced. I had planned to drop my F34 to 130mm to test, but the handling was just so spot on and the rest of the geo so sweet I never bothered, only thing I've done is try it in both geo settings, currently running it in the "slack" setting of 67.5* and liking it, previously had basically ran it in the "steep" setting of 68.5* for most of the time previous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judders View Post
    What does the prime ride like with a 140mm fork??
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  4. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post

    If Trail/AM riding is more your intended purpose for the bike, there is a lot of benefit in riding the smallest frame you can fit...
    Ditto. 6'1", massive inseam on a Medium.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  5. #555
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    I shimmed down the shock with the largest air spacer, set the sag at 25% (same pressure), kept the damping settings identical and now have a couple technical rides under my belt.

    FM: I have to hand it to you, the bike rides distinctly better. The difference isn't massive, but absolutely noticeable. I don't feel like I am fighting the frame as much on the uphills.

    I don't use nearly as much travel. Prior to the shim I was using full travel any time I dropped something. Now I use all but the last 5-10mm of travel fairly routinely (this is on rough ground with lots of sharp square but lower speed hits). I can bottom the shock, but it takes and extremely hard hit. I pretty much have to try to do it landing like a sack of potatoes off a three foot to flat will do it.

    I am wondering if I should just leave the thing be at this point. Options would be: decrease the size of the shim, increase sag, start backing off on damping, or just live with it. I like the way it rides currently in tech, so I am leaning towards the last option. Achieving full travel is over rated IMO. I need to get it out on a real trail ride with some longer climbs. My feeling is that out on the trail, I will never enter the last 10mm of shock shaft travel the way it is set up now.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  6. #556
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    What does it ride like uphill with 140mm, or even 130mm?

  7. #557
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    Right on Enel! Glad you are seeing improvement. I think you are dead on, using full travel every ride is not ideal. Some like suspension for comfort, others for performance...personally I ride better & have way more fun with my suspension sprung pretty firm & progressive... Then I can run less LSC and get more active ride without using too much travel or bottoming out.... Counter intuitive but all good!

  8. #558
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    Enel, that seems almost completely opposite of my results. I'm about 210ish fully geared for riding, sag @ 25%, HSC 1/2-3/4 turn from full open and I very rarely get into the last 10% of travel, and I tend to only use about 75% on a typical ride. I'm not doing quite the rocks and drops that you are, but I'm tearing it up all over the valley, and I'm not being very gentle about it. I'm not implying that either of us is right or wrong, it just seems odd that we get such different results.

  9. #559
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    Just to make sure you guys are on the same page as this discussion continues, check that you are indeed all running exactly the sag you think you are. 25% sag = 13.0mm of shock compression.
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  10. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    Just to make sure you guys are on the same page as this discussion continues, check that you are indeed all running exactly the sag you think you are. 25% sag = 13.0mm of shock compression.
    Right on the money.

  11. #561
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    So we are back to the charts?
    I used 57 * .25 = 14.25 mm to set 25% Sag.

    I remember on V1 rune there were charts relating the shock compression to wheel travel.
    Maybe make a similar one for the Prime (my phone doesnt handle your website very well, it might be there, but I don't remember it).

    Anyone ridden the Prime with a coil? Or does it just blow through the travel? I mean, I needed to put volume spacing on the ctd, so I guess we need progressiveness from the shock
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  12. #562
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    There is a difference between shock sag and rear suspension sag, as the suspension does not have a constant leverage ratio throughout range of travel. It is important make sure you are setting suspension sag (%of wheel travel), not shock sag (% of shock compression). This is the reasons that I really dislike the Fox app that tells you what sag to run, as I don't believe it asks you what bike you are on.

    I need to make some shock sag charts for the new bikes... thanks for reminding me.
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  13. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    There is a difference between shock sag and rear suspension sag, as the suspension does not have a constant leverage ratio throughout range of travel. It is important make sure you are setting suspension sag (%of wheel travel), not shock sag (% of shock compression). This is the reasons that I really dislike the Fox app that tells you what sag to run, as I don't believe it asks you what bike you are on.

    I need to make some shock sag charts for the new bikes... thanks for reminding me.
    I know there is a difference, but it shouldn't be that huge when we end up measuring it in the shock (like 1 or 2mm). I'd say some users even end up eye-balling the sag...
    Just integrate the compression curve, see where the integral gives us 25% of 130 and that is where the sag should be set. Or make a graph, your cup of tea.

    I'll give a shot to the coil for a ride, the bike just looks plain mean in full black with the coil
    Keith Scott: If you want to go mountain biking, then throw a leg over a new Banshee and the bike will do the talking

  14. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by G_g View Post
    Anyone ridden the Prime with a coil?
    I ran my Elka coil on my proto for a bit. It was valved for a Rune, although I put the correct spring on it for my weight & the primes lower leverage ratio. It didn't ride great- in fact my rp23 rides way better- but only due to the fact that the elka wasn't valved incorrectly. I basically had the compression and rebound backed full out and the shock still felt sluggish in both directions, although sag & travel were about right.

    Builttoride, great info!

  15. #565
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    The 15mm sag on the Cane Creek site, is that suspension sag, or shock? At risk of sounding like a dumbass, why the o-ring on shocks if we are to be measuring suspension sag and not shock sag?

  16. #566
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    Optimus, please tell me how we easily measure suspension travel/SAG, the o-ring is there because the good engineers, like Keith can tell us what those numbers should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    The 15mm sag on the Cane Creek site, is that suspension sag, or shock? At risk of sounding like a dumbass, why the o-ring on shocks if we are to be measuring suspension sag and not shock sag?
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  17. #567
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    15mm of shock stroke on a 57mm shock is 26.3%, so I'm assuming they are talking about 15mm on the shock.

  18. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Optimus, please tell me how we easily measure suspension travel/SAG.
    That was kind of my point, LyNx.

  19. #569
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    OK, lets see if I can make it clear the difference.

    Lets do some simple expamples on a 200mm travel bike


    Linear bike - Perfectly linear bike that has a constant 2:5:1 leverage through all travel.

    25% of shock sag = 25% of suspension sag. = 50mm of travel used by sag.


    Progressive bike - Imagine you had a bike that was constanty progressive starting at 3:1 and ending at 2:1

    25% of suspension sag = about 29% of suspension sag = 58mm of travel used by sag.


    Regressive bike - Imagine a bike that was constantly regressive, starting at 2:1 and ending at 3:1

    25% shock sag = about 21% suspension sag = 42mm of travel used by sag.


    These are very realistic leverage ratio numbers, so you'll see that suspension sag can vary significantly for same shock compression depending on bike leverage curve.

    The sag that is important is suspension sag, NOT shock sag. When setting shocks with suppliers, most ask me how much shock compression (in mm) corresponds to 25% suspension sag, as they use this as a base for tuning.

    For the Prime I recommend running between the following values depending on your needs and preferances:

    13.0mm shock sag = 25% suspension sag.

    14.7mm shock sag = 28% suspension sag.

    The shock sag is the distance between the shock seal and the closer edge of the rubber oring after you have sat on your bike in a balanced riding position without over compressing the suspension getting on or off.

    Hope that helps
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  20. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    Just to make sure you guys are on the same page as this discussion continues, check that you are indeed all running exactly the sag you think you are. 25% sag = 13.0mm of shock compression.
    I am running 14mm on the shaft. I had no way of knowing what the suspension sag is, so I needed to go off the shaft. Will bump to 13mm and report back. That will likely make enough difference for me to de-shim the shock a little.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  21. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post

    I need to make some shock sag charts for the new bikes... thanks for reminding me.
    These would be helpful because the only real way of measuring sag in the garage accurately is on the shock shaft. You could add it to the Geometry or Tech or FAQ pages at the prime site:

    Banshee Prime: All Mountain

    I originally went with the 25% number due to reading the specs on that site. Usually I use 30% on the shock shaft.

    It's pretty clear my issue is due to being a bit under-sprung.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  22. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Enel, that seems almost completely opposite of my results. I'm about 210ish fully geared for riding, sag @ 25%, HSC 1/2-3/4 turn from full open and I very rarely get into the last 10% of travel, and I tend to only use about 75% on a typical ride. I'm not doing quite the rocks and drops that you are, but I'm tearing it up all over the valley, and I'm not being very gentle about it. I'm not implying that either of us is right or wrong, it just seems odd that we get such different results.
    No idea. You will just have to come up and ride sometime
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  23. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    No idea. You will just have to come up and ride sometime
    I have been extremely busy at work lately, but I really want to try to get up there sometime soon. It's hard to imagine 1mm of stroke on the shock shaft making that much difference. That's what, maybe 3 or 4 psi? I kind of doubt that I would notice much difference in performance. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that my suspension is set up all wrong, LOL.

  24. #574
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    Guys, the story for the frame is closed, so thanks to all.
    Now there is another issue: I saw the frame I'm going to buy. There is one problem. I measured in rough way the alignment of the frame using the the string method, running it from the dropout faces around the steering head and checking clearances with the seat tube.
    Here after the difference of distances between leftstring and seattube and rightstring and seattube:
    - naked frame: 4 mm (which means misalignment 2 mm);
    - suspension installed: 2.5 mm (which means misalignement 1.25 mm).
    I know that such method is rough, but it is clear that there is a misalignment. Do you have any info about this, can you check what is the same delta measurement in your Primes? The seller told me that it is not a problem to get another one (it is just a matter of time....), but now I would like to understand if this deviation is standard or not.
    If it is abnormal, i can expect another frame would be better, if it is standard, another frame could be better but even worse ...
    I kindly ask you to support me (maybe measuring on yours) as soon as possible!Please help!
    Thanks a lot to all
    cate

  25. #575
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    Some pics of my new XL Prime in black - not great quality but I figured this thread could do with pictures regardless of quality.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Production Prime Photo/Build thread-img_20130323_194321.jpg  

    Production Prime Photo/Build thread-img_20130323_193522.jpg  


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