• 03-26-2013
    Optimus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    I am starting to notice a couple things:
    1. Wheel flex.
    2. I am more regularly flatting my beloved FR3 tires primarily through the casing. I thought these were indestructible, but I am hitting stuff harder I think and sort of slowly killing them.

    I've been having very good results from my Butchers, good traction, sidewalls are holding up fine. They are a bit slow, and I do at times get the feeling that I'm pushing them near their limit in chunk, but so far no problems. Looking forward to trying the new Maxxis, probably only the single ply though. My MTX's built up extremely easy, easiest wheel that I've ever built, less than 1mm runout right at initial tensioning, 2 wraps of 3M electrical tape, 1 wrap of Stan's yellow tape, aired up fine. I could feel a very noticeable increase in stiffness with my E13 hubs, my wheels should be plenty strong now. F34 seems pretty stiff, 15mm axle isn't really a noticeable weak point, IMO.
  • 03-26-2013
    evasive
    Production Prime Photo/Build thread
    I've been debating whether to buy the DH casing DHFs or an Exo casing DHF in front with an Exo DHR2, HR2 or a DHF in back. Considering that I have pinch flatted a Hans Dampf and I'm currently riding with Dissents, the DH casings probably make the most sense.

    Hurry up, boat!
  • 03-26-2013
    Optimus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FM View Post
    FWIW I have to throw down a solid endorsement for the easton haven carbon wheels. I picked up a used set in august, they dropped a bit of weight off compared to my 32h flows, but the difference in stiffness was incredible. Even after tons of use they are true as new. They also work great tubeless.
    The original hubs were kinda meh, but the most recent *free* easton hub upgrade basically disables the pre-load adjustment and makes the hub a press-together design, similar to Hope Pro 2's. Great product support by easton!
    The MSRP is stupid, but not hard to find these for $1k-1500usd & well worth it IMO.

    I'll ride carbon bars, but for some reason, carbon wheels scare me. But I may have to take a peak at them, being as I'm never fully satisfied with today.
  • 03-26-2013
    Optimus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I've been debating whether to buy the DH casing DHFs or an Exo casing DHF in front with an Exo DHR2, HR2 or a DHF in back. Considering that I have pinch flatted a Hans Dampf and I'm currently riding with Dissents, the DH casings probably make the most sense.

    Hurry up, boat!

    For the weight of the single plies, I'm thinking that they're going to be bit tougher than the Control Speshies I'm running, probably a bit less than SX's, which I really like. I'm leaning toward the single ply, but who knows.
  • 03-26-2013
    evasive
    Production Prime Photo/Build thread
    I'm not entirely on board with carbon bars or rims yet. My reluctance is entirely based on stories from people I know. While I do understand the difference between anecdotes and statistics, that understanding doesn't help me sleep better when camping in grizzly country, either.
  • 03-26-2013
    Optimus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I'm not entirely on board with carbon bars or rims yet. My reluctance is entirely based on stories from people I know. While I do understand the difference between anecdotes and statistics, that understanding doesn't help me sleep better when camping in grizzly country, either.

    Grizzlies won't mess with you if you're badass enough to ride carbon bars.
  • 03-26-2013
    evasive
    1 Attachment(s)
    Production Prime Photo/Build thread
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Grizzlies won't mess with you if you're badass enough to ride carbon bars.

    Assuming they're these bars:

    Attachment 784934
  • 03-26-2013
    MartinS
    Been using carbon bars for ages, no issues ever, although just stick with Easton or Raceface so far. I have an old set of Easton DH bars that are so beat up it is funny, they kept going. Have bent or broken several sets of Al bars though... Carbon rims, still waiting, I've seen a few break prematurely so I'll give them a bit of time before I try em.
    Carbon cranks so far seem dumb, especially the SRAM ones, they seem to last about 2 seasons before failure under bigger riders. Saw several broken sets last year locally. For the price I'll keep my XTR's thanks!
  • 03-26-2013
    Optimus
    With them, he may take your bike.
  • 03-26-2013
    Optimus
    +1 on the Easton bars, I had Havens on all 3 bikes, switched to Havocs. I'm liking the 750mm. I looked at the Haven carbon wheels, they're only 21mm wide. FM, what size tires are you running on those carbon wheels?
  • 03-27-2013
    sakucee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    I am starting to notice a couple things:
    1. Wheel flex.
    2. I am more regularly flatting my beloved FR3 tires primarily through the casing. I thought these were indestructible, but I am hitting stuff harder I think and sort of slowly killing them.

    Flow EX are stiff and reasonably priced, also you can put much higher spoke tension on EX's vs normal Flow's.
  • 03-27-2013
    FM
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    I looked at the Haven carbon wheels, they're only 21mm wide. FM, what size tires are you running on those carbon wheels?

    Running schwalbe 2.35's, HD f / NN r, tubeless, low 20's psi.

    So the flows are 22.6mm internal width. Can't say I noticed any difference at all in terms of burping or tire rolling in corners, hasn't been a problem (I do check pressure every ride with a digital guage, funny how I crash less often since doing that!). Again the stiffness difference vs. flows was immediately noticable, especially on G-outs, pumping corners at speed, off camber roots & rock etc. Difference was on the scale of going form a QR to a through axle in front.
  • 03-27-2013
    sakucee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Running schwalbe 2.35's, HD f / NN r, tubeless, low 20's psi.

    So the flows are 22.6mm internal width. Can't say I noticed any difference at all in terms of burping or tire rolling in corners, hasn't been a problem (I do check pressure every ride with a digital guage, funny how I crash less often since doing that!). Again the stiffness difference vs. flows was immediately noticable, especially on G-outs, pumping corners at speed, off camber roots & rock etc. Difference was on the scale of going form a QR to a through axle in front.

    I got the alu havens, i hate 'em with vengeance, hubs are subpar for wheelset at that price and can't change to another manufacturer hub...

    I just stopped buying system wheels and just use 32h rims+hubs now. :)
  • 03-27-2013
    AdrianoMTB
    4 Attachment(s)
    Hi All

    One pic of my banshees... now I have to compare with arguments the differences between 26 vs 29 :D
  • 03-27-2013
    FM
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sakucee View Post
    I got the alu havens, i hate 'em with vengeance, hubs are subpar for wheelset at that price and can't change to another manufacturer hub...



    Get the free bearing/axle upgrade kit.
    Fixes all the issues, easy installation, even the tools are included.

    Great lookin' Prime AdrianoMTB!
  • 03-27-2013
    RideEverything
    Honzo TT 25" (635mm) vs Prime TT 25.4" (645mm).
    0.4" (10mm) isn't that much of a stretch over the 20" Honzo.
    I'll just have to get a shorter stem.

    Numbers wise the 20" Honzo sits between the L and XL Prime. Leaning slightly closer to XL Prime sizing though. And the Reach between the 20L Honzo and XL Prime is exactly the same (since we're splitting hairs).

    But these are all numbers on paper. Who knows if 10mm will make a giant or small difference when riding the bike.
  • 03-27-2013
    Optimus
    Got out for a bit of chunk to try out my new MTX33's. Very much noticeably stiffer than my Frequency i23's. I had my suspension pretty much dialed in, but these new wheels actually make the ride feel less plush, time for a little tweaking.
  • 03-28-2013
    LyNx
    Can't see how at your height you wouldn't go for the XL, but that's just my opinion and I seem to be a bit in the minority in that thinking, but at 6'2" I like the fit of the XL, but wouldn't mind the shorter wheelbase the L would give. Long knuckle dragging arms, 35.25" inseam, running a 70mm stem and 785mm wide bar, but will be going down 5mm to a 65mm stem shortly.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RideEverything View Post
    Honzo TT 25" (635mm) vs Prime TT 25.4" (645mm).
    0.4" (10mm) isn't that much of a stretch over the 20" Honzo.
    I'll just have to get a shorter stem.

    Numbers wise the 20" Honzo sits between the L and XL Prime. Leaning slightly closer to XL Prime sizing though. And the Reach between the 20L Honzo and XL Prime is exactly the same (since we're splitting hairs).

    But these are all numbers on paper. Who knows if 10mm will make a giant or small difference when riding the bike.

    People don't realise just how much other parts play in the ride of their bike besides the suspension :D Check your tyre pressures, maybe you can go lower there, I know I can easily notice the much differen and less plush feel if say I pump my tyres up for more gravel grinding/road connecting to get to the trails and forget to drop them - talking running 28F and 35R as compared to 21-24 F and 25-28 R. If not as you say, drop 5 PSI from the fork and shock and see what that does.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Got out for a bit of chunk to try out my new MTX33's. Very much noticeably stiffer than my Frequency i23's. I had my suspension pretty much dialed in, but these new wheels actually make the ride feel less plush, time for a little tweaking.

  • 03-28-2013
    Optimus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    People don't realise just how much other parts play in the ride of their bike besides the suspension :D Check your tyre pressures, maybe you can go lower there, I know I can easily notice the much differen and less plush feel if say I pump my tyres up for more gravel grinding/road connecting to get to the trails and forget to drop them - talking running 28F and 35R as compared to 21-24 F and 25-28 R. If not as you say, drop 5 PSI from the fork and shock and see what that does.

    I typically ride 28F/30R, and although these rims are 3mm wider and create a bit more volume, I thought that my typical psi was a good starting point. First time also that I've had a 29er Butcher on the rear, noticeably slower than a Purgatory, I didn't get much opportunity to compare traction.
  • 03-28-2013
    RideEverything
    I have considered the L size but felt that it's just a little too small. My biggest waffling point about the XL size is the 21" ST. I'd much rather have a 20" ST with the other measurements staying the same. But at my height/size buying a bike has always been a set of compromises when looking at sizing/measurements.

    From my perspective, riding style (where and how you ride) factors largely into the size of bike you end up on. Or it should.
  • 03-28-2013
    FM
    Rideeverything-
    Not to confuse the issue but I would be careful comparing size against the Honzo. I have a Small Honzo and medium Prime (both great bikes). The Honzo has pretty unique geometry- that curved seat tube is fairly steep depending on your saddle height, and a short head tube- both throw off the ETT and reach measurements. My bikes are set up nearly identical and the prime does not feel any longer in terms of reach or TT. The differences in chainstay length, wheelbase, bar height and suspension are noticable!

    Not saying you should go L or XL- just be aware...
  • 03-28-2013
    RideEverything
    FM,
    If I'm understanding this right it sounds like cockpit fit is similar going up a size from the the Honzo to the Prime?
    I realize the wheel base between the Honzo 20" and XL Prime is quite big. So I would assume that is where I would feel the most difference between the bikes.

    The Honzo is the first and only 29er that I've ridden. So that is my comparison point. I realize that each bike feels different when ridden compared to numbers on paper. But sometimes the numbers help.
  • 03-28-2013
    RideEverything
    I had a look through the Prime Participation thread and saw that there were even less photos of the Prime than in this thread! Either way I'm not going to end up with a proto so I would really like to see more photos of the production Prime. Preferably in the XL size and, hopefully, being ridden in action shots!
  • 03-28-2013
    eurospek
    Some XL Prime that I haven't seen posted on here.






    The Perfect Enduro Bike | Ohio Downhill
  • 03-29-2013
    FM
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RideEverything View Post
    FM,
    If I'm understanding this right it sounds like cockpit fit is similar going up a size from the the Honzo to the Prime?

    If you were 5'-9"/175cm I would say yes. However... there's personal preference, plus our height differences... all I can say is, consider all variables.
    That and.. When in doubt, downsize on 29'er's... bigger wheels make the frame ride larger.
  • 03-29-2013
    TR
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FM View Post
    When in doubt, downsize on 29'er's... bigger wheels make the frame ride larger.

    Will need to agree to disagree on that pointdo not downsize.
    Buy the frame that fits you in ETT or Reach.
    In order of importance IMO is ETT, ST length and then stand over (unless you like spending a lot of time standing over your bike).
  • 03-29-2013
    evasive
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Will need to agree to disagree on that pointdo not downsize.
    Buy the frame that fits you in ETT or Reach.
    In order of importance IMO is ETT, ST length and then stand over (unless you like spending a lot of time standing over your bike).

    But fit is variable based on application, much like my hiking boots don't fit at all like my ski boots, and shouldn't. Another example: in the Lopes - McCormack book, both authors list the bikes they own. Lopes had several Mojos, and depending on intended use, they included both medium and small frames.

    I don't know how RideEverything would use a Prime, on what trails, how he rides, or what type of position he prefers, but given that he's looking into a Prime, that suggests a use and therefore fit that would likely favor a shorter cockpit and a more upright position. Probably. Only he can say for certain.
  • 03-29-2013
    FM
    Fit is definitely personal preference. My point was that ETT numbers for many frames, including the honzo, can be misleading due to the curved seat tube (honzo) or other fabrication techniques.
  • 03-29-2013
    TR
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    But fit is variable based on application, much like my hiking boots don't fit at all like my ski boots, and shouldn't. Another example: in the Lopes - McCormack book, both authors list the bikes they own. Lopes had several Mojos, and depending on intended use, they included both medium and small frames.

    I don't know how RideEverything would use a Prime, on what trails, how he rides, or what type of position he prefers, but given that he's looking into a Prime, that suggests a use and therefore fit that would likely favor a shorter cockpit and a more upright position. Probably. Only he can say for certain.

    I can agree with that, but not FM's post to downsize if in doubt as 29ers ride bigger.
    That is certainly not the case with say the SC Tallboy which feels a lot smaller than it's numbers suggest.
  • 03-29-2013
    G_g
    I went with the bigger frame and don't regret it at all. I'd rather use a 35mm stem than getting the smaller frame and needing a 80mm or so stem.

    Seat tube length should be easier on the bigger frame also. I'd like my frame to have a shorter seattube by 1cm or 2, but I'm riding a KS i950 seatpost which has a pretty big stack height. My guess is with a KS Lev or a non telescopic seatpost I'd be set on the full slamed position for when going downhill.

    Don't think that a shorter frame would make the bike that much more nimble, the chainstays measure the same, and the wheelbase difference is not that huge. Heck, even changing between the low/high positions you can mitigate those size differences (I have even thought about running the frame on the high position with an angle slacker set, just to benefit from shorter chainstays).

    Can I cut the seattube 1cm without voiding the warranty? Or just bite the bullet and buy a KS Lev?
  • 03-29-2013
    TR
    Well I am basically decided on the Prime and now a friend of mine wants one too after I showed him this thread.
    Just need to organise to get 2 of them down here.
    Anyone got a good lead on a dealer with good pricing?
    Failing that I think I need to get onto Banshee regarding shipping directly to me.
  • 03-29-2013
    Colin+M
    Chad @ Red Barn
  • 03-29-2013
    LyNx
    Deal directly with Banshee, you'll be glad you did.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Well I am basically decided on the Prime and now a friend of mine wants one too after I showed him this thread.
    Just need to organise to get 2 of them down here.
    Anyone got a good lead on a dealer with good pricing?
    Failing that I think I need to get onto Banshee regarding shipping directly to me.

  • 03-29-2013
    FM
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TR View Post
    I can agree with that, but not FM's post to downsize if in doubt as 29ers ride bigger.

    There's no way around it, a 29'er will almost always have a longer wheelbase than a 26'er with similar geometry & features. That is what I meant by "ride bigger" and why I said "When in doubt, downsize" on a 29'er.

    I try to separate bike fit from bike handling. Smaller bikes generally handle better, which is why 4x/slalom racers generally size down, right? But many people prefer the fit of longer cockpits for longer rides. It's personal preference. Me, I value bike handling over bike fit... also I find I don't need a long top tube or long stem to keep the front wheel down while climbing on a 29'er... so for me, I like my 29'ers a bit smaller than my 26" bikes.

    YMMV!
  • 03-29-2013
    jncarpenter
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FM View Post
    There's no way around it, a 29'er will almost always have a longer wheelbase than a 26'er with similar geometry & features. That is what I meant by "ride bigger" and why I said "When in doubt, downsize" on a 29'er.

    I try to separate bike fit from bike handling. Smaller bikes generally handle better, which is why 4x/slalom racers generally size down, right? But many people prefer the fit of longer cockpits for longer rides. It's personal preference. Me, I value bike handling over bike fit... also I find I don't need a long top tube or long stem to keep the front wheel down while climbing on a 29'er... so for me, I like my 29'ers a bit smaller than my 26" bikes.

    YMMV!

    I couldn't agree more (literally), brother! :thumbsup:

    Attachment 785721
  • 03-29-2013
    Colin+M
    Different strokes, etc etc. All I know is that I'm 5'11 and went with a large. I also know that the Prime is my favorite bike that I've ridden, period.
  • 03-29-2013
    TR
    Well I will question then what is more important.
    A smaller frame and longer (supposedly slower steering stem) or a longer ETT with shorter (supposedly faster handling stem).
    Both options will fit a guy but do you have a longer wheelbase and shorter stem or a shorter wheelbase and longer stem?

    I am yet to see any real significant agreement on this.

    At 6'3" I can easily ride either the L with a 70-80mm stem or the XL with a 50mm.
  • 03-29-2013
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Well I will question then what is more important.
    A smaller frame and longer (supposedly slower steering stem) or a longer ETT with shorter (supposedly faster handling stem).
    Both options will fit a guy but do you have a longer wheelbase and shorter stem or a shorter wheelbase and longer stem?

    I am yet to see any real significant agreement on this.

    At 6'3" I can easily ride either the L with a 70-80mm stem or the XL with a 50mm.

    At 6', I chose the Med. (gratefully).... I recommend the L.
  • 03-29-2013
    Colin+M
    I will add that I had a Medium Prototype frame and ran it with a 70 stem and it ripped just as well as the Large with the 50mm stem. I just don't like feeling cramped with the seat down, not to mention we don't have big mountain terrain around here so I wanted a tad larger frame for comfort. I honestly don't think you can go wrong either way, but if you want to maneuver tight terrain I would go with the large frame as well as I do with I had the shorter wheelbase of the medium at times myself. There is no perfect solution, compromises must be made somewhere. Just decide which compromises you can live with and those you can't:)
  • 03-29-2013
    FM
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Colin+M View Post
    I will add that I had a Medium Prototype frame and ran it with a 70 stem and it ripped just as well as the Large with the 50mm stem. I honestly don't think you can go wrong either way,

    100% agreed, I've owned different sizes of the same bike a few times, they were all fun to ride! :)
    Most all of us could go up and/or down a size and be completely happy- especially with all the other possible adjustments. I have just found for 29'ers, I prefer smaller.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Well I will question then what is more important.
    I am yet to see any real significant agreement on this.

    At 6'3" I can easily ride either the L with a 70-80mm stem or the XL with a 50mm.

    The option with the shorter wheelbase will corner faster, be easier to control in the air and easier to get the front end up. You could probably get +20mm out of the seatpost/handlebar regardless of stem length. 30" bars? wider bars pull you forward, just as a longer stem would, as you probably know....

    But I agree you can't really go wrong... :thumbsup:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    I couldn't agree more (literally), brother! :thumbsup:

    Ha, too funny! The amazing power of rep power... or not so much:yawn:
  • 03-30-2013
    savo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eurospek View Post
    Some XL Prime that I haven't seen posted on here.

    Is this a proto or a production frame? I've seen a frame for sale that has the same dropouts and I'd like to know what it is.

    EDIT: I see it's a proto. Can someone sum up the difference from protos and production frame? Are those dropouts adjustable? are they swappable for 12x142 ones? Does it have the same geometry of the production one?

    Thanks!
  • 03-30-2013
    LyNx
    You answered your question, the rest.....that is a proto.

    • Yes it has adjustable geometry.
    • NO, the adjustments aren't the same, the proto only had 2 settings 67.5* & 68.5*, the production has 3-67.5*, 68* & 68.5*. Also the production the stays get shorter as you steepen the geo whereas the proto they got longer.
    • NO the dropouts do not have a 142 x 12 option, in fact with a proto you basically only have the dropout option it has now since they didn't make a whole load of them and pretty much AFAIK there's none now available - so if for example your frame you're looking at has 150mm drops and you wanted 135mm, tough chance you'll be able to.
    • NO, the production is not the same as the proto, some small, but significant tweaks have been made the the suspension, dropouts, geo and also the tubing.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by savo View Post
    Is this a proto or a production frame? I've seen a frame for sale that has the same dropouts and I'd like to know what it is.

    EDIT: I see it's a proto. Can someone sum up the difference from protos and production frame? Are those dropouts adjustable? are they swappable for 12x142 ones? Does it have the same geometry of the production one?

    Thanks!

  • 03-31-2013
    savo
    Thank you LyNx, can you or someone confirm if this is the correct geometry table for those pre-production frames?



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    You answered your question, the rest.....that is a proto.

    • Yes it has adjustable geometry.
    • NO, the adjustments aren't the same, the proto only had 2 settings 67.5* & 68.5*, the production has 3-67.5*, 68* & 68.5*. Also the production the stays get shorter as you steepen the geo whereas the proto they got longer.
    • NO the dropouts do not have a 142 x 12 option, in fact with a proto you basically only have the dropout option it has now since they didn't make a whole load of them and pretty much AFAIK there's none now available - so if for example your frame you're looking at has 150mm drops and you wanted 135mm, tough chance you'll be able to.
    • NO, the production is not the same as the proto, some small, but significant tweaks have been made the the suspension, dropouts, geo and also the tubing.

  • 03-31-2013
    evasive
    Production Prime Photo/Build thread
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by savo View Post
    Thank you LyNx, can you or someone confirm if this is the correct geometry table for those pre-production frames?


    No, that's not it. I think that was a first draft. I have the correct one for the preproduction frames on my computer, but not on my phone, or I'd post it for you.
  • 03-31-2013
    savo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    No, that's not it. I think that was a first draft. I have the correct one for the preproduction frames on my computer, but not on my phone, or I'd post it for you.

    Ok, I found another one:



    Is this the right one?
    The proto's headtube does not look to be tapered as stated here.

    Thanks!
  • 03-31-2013
    Optimus
    The KS link sag charts are available at Banshee.
  • 03-31-2013
    Optimus
    Went out yesterday and put a decent beat down on my MTX's, minor burped the rear 4 times with a brand new 2.3 Butcher on it, front burped once with a well used Butcher but I hit a rock HARD, surprised I didn't damage the rim. I've been doing my tape wrap and Stans with non-UST tires for 3 years and 4 different wheel sets, and have NEVER burped a tire. But, the wheels are very stiff, made a very tough bike feel even tougher. I have to figure out the burping because I definitely want to be tubeless where I ride.
  • 03-31-2013
    qbert2000
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Went out yesterday and put a decent beat down on my MTX's, minor burped the rear 4 times with a brand new 2.3 Butcher on it, front burped once with a well used Butcher but I hit a rock HARD, surprised I didn't damage the rim. I've been doing my tape wrap and Stans with non-UST tires for 3 years and 4 different wheel sets, and have NEVER burped a tire. But, the wheels are very stiff, made a very tough bike feel even tougher. I have to figure out the burping because I definitely want to be tubeless where I ride.

    it's too bad it looks like sun only uses stan's bead hook design on their complete wheelsets. it may be hard to keep them from burbing without that
  • 03-31-2013
    Colin+M
    The proto had a straight 1.5 head tube.
  • 03-31-2013
    eurospek
    Really don't see too many of the flo yellow posted, stumbled upon this one on mtb-news.de. Rider is 1.85m (6'0") for those interested, frame size large.