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  1. #551
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    Once again, I think riding style & intended purpose need to be considered here with regards to "proper" fit. If one is looking to build a more xc-ish frame, I'm not sure the Prime is ever going to be considered ideal. And you certainly can't select a frame size for the Prime based off of the fit of a previous xc style bike. Sure, if you're a clyde, and simply want the extra burly chassis (as well as the corresponding weight), it would be possible to get by with the Prime pressed into xc/trail riding....however, once again, I can't see the overall ride being ideal.

    If Trail/AM riding is more your intended purpose for the bike, there is a lot of benefit in riding the smallest frame you can fit...


  2. #552
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    What does the prime ride like with a 140mm fork??

  3. #553
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    Fantastic ! It's what most have been riding them with, very few have used 150mm forks, mostly been a wide variety of the 140mm travel - RS Rev, Marz , F34. Handling seems very balanced. I had planned to drop my F34 to 130mm to test, but the handling was just so spot on and the rest of the geo so sweet I never bothered, only thing I've done is try it in both geo settings, currently running it in the "slack" setting of 67.5* and liking it, previously had basically ran it in the "steep" setting of 68.5* for most of the time previous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judders View Post
    What does the prime ride like with a 140mm fork??
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  4. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post

    If Trail/AM riding is more your intended purpose for the bike, there is a lot of benefit in riding the smallest frame you can fit...
    Ditto. 6'1", massive inseam on a Medium.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  5. #555
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    I shimmed down the shock with the largest air spacer, set the sag at 25% (same pressure), kept the damping settings identical and now have a couple technical rides under my belt.

    FM: I have to hand it to you, the bike rides distinctly better. The difference isn't massive, but absolutely noticeable. I don't feel like I am fighting the frame as much on the uphills.

    I don't use nearly as much travel. Prior to the shim I was using full travel any time I dropped something. Now I use all but the last 5-10mm of travel fairly routinely (this is on rough ground with lots of sharp square but lower speed hits). I can bottom the shock, but it takes and extremely hard hit. I pretty much have to try to do it landing like a sack of potatoes off a three foot to flat will do it.

    I am wondering if I should just leave the thing be at this point. Options would be: decrease the size of the shim, increase sag, start backing off on damping, or just live with it. I like the way it rides currently in tech, so I am leaning towards the last option. Achieving full travel is over rated IMO. I need to get it out on a real trail ride with some longer climbs. My feeling is that out on the trail, I will never enter the last 10mm of shock shaft travel the way it is set up now.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  6. #556
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    What does it ride like uphill with 140mm, or even 130mm?

  7. #557
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    Right on Enel! Glad you are seeing improvement. I think you are dead on, using full travel every ride is not ideal. Some like suspension for comfort, others for performance...personally I ride better & have way more fun with my suspension sprung pretty firm & progressive... Then I can run less LSC and get more active ride without using too much travel or bottoming out.... Counter intuitive but all good!

  8. #558
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    Enel, that seems almost completely opposite of my results. I'm about 210ish fully geared for riding, sag @ 25%, HSC 1/2-3/4 turn from full open and I very rarely get into the last 10% of travel, and I tend to only use about 75% on a typical ride. I'm not doing quite the rocks and drops that you are, but I'm tearing it up all over the valley, and I'm not being very gentle about it. I'm not implying that either of us is right or wrong, it just seems odd that we get such different results.

  9. #559
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    Just to make sure you guys are on the same page as this discussion continues, check that you are indeed all running exactly the sag you think you are. 25% sag = 13.0mm of shock compression.
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  10. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    Just to make sure you guys are on the same page as this discussion continues, check that you are indeed all running exactly the sag you think you are. 25% sag = 13.0mm of shock compression.
    Right on the money.

  11. #561
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    So we are back to the charts?
    I used 57 * .25 = 14.25 mm to set 25% Sag.

    I remember on V1 rune there were charts relating the shock compression to wheel travel.
    Maybe make a similar one for the Prime (my phone doesnt handle your website very well, it might be there, but I don't remember it).

    Anyone ridden the Prime with a coil? Or does it just blow through the travel? I mean, I needed to put volume spacing on the ctd, so I guess we need progressiveness from the shock
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  12. #562
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    There is a difference between shock sag and rear suspension sag, as the suspension does not have a constant leverage ratio throughout range of travel. It is important make sure you are setting suspension sag (%of wheel travel), not shock sag (% of shock compression). This is the reasons that I really dislike the Fox app that tells you what sag to run, as I don't believe it asks you what bike you are on.

    I need to make some shock sag charts for the new bikes... thanks for reminding me.
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  13. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    There is a difference between shock sag and rear suspension sag, as the suspension does not have a constant leverage ratio throughout range of travel. It is important make sure you are setting suspension sag (%of wheel travel), not shock sag (% of shock compression). This is the reasons that I really dislike the Fox app that tells you what sag to run, as I don't believe it asks you what bike you are on.

    I need to make some shock sag charts for the new bikes... thanks for reminding me.
    I know there is a difference, but it shouldn't be that huge when we end up measuring it in the shock (like 1 or 2mm). I'd say some users even end up eye-balling the sag...
    Just integrate the compression curve, see where the integral gives us 25% of 130 and that is where the sag should be set. Or make a graph, your cup of tea.

    I'll give a shot to the coil for a ride, the bike just looks plain mean in full black with the coil
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  14. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by G_g View Post
    Anyone ridden the Prime with a coil?
    I ran my Elka coil on my proto for a bit. It was valved for a Rune, although I put the correct spring on it for my weight & the primes lower leverage ratio. It didn't ride great- in fact my rp23 rides way better- but only due to the fact that the elka wasn't valved incorrectly. I basically had the compression and rebound backed full out and the shock still felt sluggish in both directions, although sag & travel were about right.

    Builttoride, great info!

  15. #565
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    The 15mm sag on the Cane Creek site, is that suspension sag, or shock? At risk of sounding like a dumbass, why the o-ring on shocks if we are to be measuring suspension sag and not shock sag?

  16. #566
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    Optimus, please tell me how we easily measure suspension travel/SAG, the o-ring is there because the good engineers, like Keith can tell us what those numbers should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    The 15mm sag on the Cane Creek site, is that suspension sag, or shock? At risk of sounding like a dumbass, why the o-ring on shocks if we are to be measuring suspension sag and not shock sag?
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  17. #567
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    15mm of shock stroke on a 57mm shock is 26.3%, so I'm assuming they are talking about 15mm on the shock.

  18. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Optimus, please tell me how we easily measure suspension travel/SAG.
    That was kind of my point, LyNx.

  19. #569
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    OK, lets see if I can make it clear the difference.

    Lets do some simple expamples on a 200mm travel bike


    Linear bike - Perfectly linear bike that has a constant 2:5:1 leverage through all travel.

    25% of shock sag = 25% of suspension sag. = 50mm of travel used by sag.


    Progressive bike - Imagine you had a bike that was constanty progressive starting at 3:1 and ending at 2:1

    25% of suspension sag = about 29% of suspension sag = 58mm of travel used by sag.


    Regressive bike - Imagine a bike that was constantly regressive, starting at 2:1 and ending at 3:1

    25% shock sag = about 21% suspension sag = 42mm of travel used by sag.


    These are very realistic leverage ratio numbers, so you'll see that suspension sag can vary significantly for same shock compression depending on bike leverage curve.

    The sag that is important is suspension sag, NOT shock sag. When setting shocks with suppliers, most ask me how much shock compression (in mm) corresponds to 25% suspension sag, as they use this as a base for tuning.

    For the Prime I recommend running between the following values depending on your needs and preferances:

    13.0mm shock sag = 25% suspension sag.

    14.7mm shock sag = 28% suspension sag.

    The shock sag is the distance between the shock seal and the closer edge of the rubber oring after you have sat on your bike in a balanced riding position without over compressing the suspension getting on or off.

    Hope that helps
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  20. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    Just to make sure you guys are on the same page as this discussion continues, check that you are indeed all running exactly the sag you think you are. 25% sag = 13.0mm of shock compression.
    I am running 14mm on the shaft. I had no way of knowing what the suspension sag is, so I needed to go off the shaft. Will bump to 13mm and report back. That will likely make enough difference for me to de-shim the shock a little.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  21. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post

    I need to make some shock sag charts for the new bikes... thanks for reminding me.
    These would be helpful because the only real way of measuring sag in the garage accurately is on the shock shaft. You could add it to the Geometry or Tech or FAQ pages at the prime site:

    Banshee Prime: All Mountain

    I originally went with the 25% number due to reading the specs on that site. Usually I use 30% on the shock shaft.

    It's pretty clear my issue is due to being a bit under-sprung.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  22. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Enel, that seems almost completely opposite of my results. I'm about 210ish fully geared for riding, sag @ 25%, HSC 1/2-3/4 turn from full open and I very rarely get into the last 10% of travel, and I tend to only use about 75% on a typical ride. I'm not doing quite the rocks and drops that you are, but I'm tearing it up all over the valley, and I'm not being very gentle about it. I'm not implying that either of us is right or wrong, it just seems odd that we get such different results.
    No idea. You will just have to come up and ride sometime
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  23. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    No idea. You will just have to come up and ride sometime
    I have been extremely busy at work lately, but I really want to try to get up there sometime soon. It's hard to imagine 1mm of stroke on the shock shaft making that much difference. That's what, maybe 3 or 4 psi? I kind of doubt that I would notice much difference in performance. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that my suspension is set up all wrong, LOL.

  24. #574
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    Guys, the story for the frame is closed, so thanks to all.
    Now there is another issue: I saw the frame I'm going to buy. There is one problem. I measured in rough way the alignment of the frame using the the string method, running it from the dropout faces around the steering head and checking clearances with the seat tube.
    Here after the difference of distances between leftstring and seattube and rightstring and seattube:
    - naked frame: 4 mm (which means misalignment 2 mm);
    - suspension installed: 2.5 mm (which means misalignement 1.25 mm).
    I know that such method is rough, but it is clear that there is a misalignment. Do you have any info about this, can you check what is the same delta measurement in your Primes? The seller told me that it is not a problem to get another one (it is just a matter of time....), but now I would like to understand if this deviation is standard or not.
    If it is abnormal, i can expect another frame would be better, if it is standard, another frame could be better but even worse ...
    I kindly ask you to support me (maybe measuring on yours) as soon as possible!Please help!
    Thanks a lot to all
    cate

  25. #575
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    Some pics of my new XL Prime in black - not great quality but I figured this thread could do with pictures regardless of quality.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Production Prime Photo/Build thread-img_20130323_194321.jpg  

    Production Prime Photo/Build thread-img_20130323_193522.jpg  


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    My back aches looking at those pics. What's the seat height to bar height difference?
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    My back aches looking at those pics. What's the seat height to bar height difference?
    The photo was taken after the build but before I rode it, so not the right height. Having said that, I'm 6ft5 so it's not far off.

  28. #578
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    Ah, ok! You really tall guys have it rough sometimes.
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

  29. #579
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    Man, I don't know if I'm getting old or already there, but I have to agree with Skidad on this one, loads of drop there, reminds me of when I was younger and into more endurance type riding. Looks to be about 3" drop between saddle and bar. Almost forgot, sweet looking ride. What was your previous bike?

    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    My back aches looking at those pics. What's the seat height to bar height difference?
    Quote Originally Posted by thematthewjones View Post
    The photo was taken after the build but before I rode it, so not the right height. Having said that, I'm 6ft5 so it's not far off.
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  30. #580
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    Nice bike....the same I would like to biy....same color....
    can you help me about this misalignment.....
    please...

    Quote Originally Posted by caterpoller View Post
    Guys, the story for the frame is closed, so thanks to all.
    Now there is another issue: I saw the frame I'm going to buy. There is one problem. I measured in rough way the alignment of the frame using the the string method, running it from the dropout faces around the steering head and checking clearances with the seat tube.
    Here after the difference of distances between leftstring and seattube and rightstring and seattube:
    - naked frame: 4 mm (which means misalignment 2 mm);
    - suspension installed: 2.5 mm (which means misalignement 1.25 mm).
    I know that such method is rough, but it is clear that there is a misalignment. Do you have any info about this, can you check what is the same delta measurement in your Primes? The seller told me that it is not a problem to get another one (it is just a matter of time....), but now I would like to understand if this deviation is standard or not.
    If it is abnormal, i can expect another frame would be better, if it is standard, another frame could be better but even worse ...
    I kindly ask you to support me (maybe measuring on yours) as soon as possible!Please help!
    Thanks a lot to all
    cate

  31. #581
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    Production Prime Photo/Build thread

    Production Prime Photo/Build thread-imageuploadedbytapatalk1364165349.325189.jpg

    Okay, I am officially in love. I carefully set sag to 13mm last night with all my gear on, full water, etc. To get 1.5mm less sag took 15-20psi more in the shock, at least a 10% difference.

    I got a big ride in today with about two hours of climbing followed by an hour of descending. I have not been able to get on the higher level trails with the bike before today due to snow. I expected the Prime to make me suffer badly, but the Prime pedaled great. I didn't notice that small bump compliance was worse, at least at lower speeds. I was able to clean a brutal climb that I rarely clean on any bike, and I didn't even have the super granny gearing I usually run. I absolutely did not feel like I was fighting the bike like I did before resetting sag.

    This is mostly a trail ride, so I didn't expect to bottom the shock, and I didn't. Not even close, maybe 2/3 of shock travel was used. It was pretty clear to me, after a couple intermediate descents that the rear was too progressive and I was never going to bottom the thing. It was skipping around a bit as well. At the peak, I decided to get the shim out of the shock which was not too big a deal trailside after doing it in the garage once.

    Then I pointed the Prime downhill.

    Lead. Sled.

    I set a best time ever on a pure, fast downhill section. Fast, cornering singletrack. Nothing technical, just keep it on the trail with tight turns to keep you on your toes. The stiffness of the rear is very confidence inspiring when things get out of shape a bit.

    The short climbs on the long descent were handled well, and I didn't miss the shim.

    So, long story short:

    1. I am loving this bike. I thought it would be a chore on non-tech trail ride and it is not at all.
    2. Set that sag to 13mm The suspension is fairly sensitive to this.
    3. At the shock shaft
    4. I intend to ride it until I break it at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  32. #582
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    Sweet! I'm glad you were able to dial it in.

    Let us know when/if you do, because I don't want any part of what I think it would take to break mine.
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  33. #583
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    Yes, i could do 45+min climbs with it on fireroads on Spain, with XX1 32t ring and XX1 cassette, and i got noodles for legs.

  34. #584
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    Production Prime Photo/Build thread-p4pb9358141.jpg

    The bike is a blast with a coil, but blows through the travel even faster than with the fox CTD. My van R isn't the most adjustable thing in the world, so that shock will stick to the rune. I'd love to try a CCDB coil, a properly valved elka, an avvy, something similar. My guess is that speed sensitive damping is a must, so that it can be setup not to go to deep unless the impact is really high speed. I have never been a fan of position sensitive damping, but the Prime just flat out screams not to use the wrong shock.

    Anyway, prime time(s) around here. Next up should be to give the dhx air a try. This bike is making me sell the Rune, there is no need for both, the prime does it all (except jumping, manualing and air time, lifting that front end is much harder work, and it's not a strength issue, it's related to geometry/inercia of wheel. It feels like I shoved a dual ply with DH tube on the 26" xc bike, it just feels sluggish; maybe I'll just get used to it. )

    Oh, shock reducers are not the same size as the Rune, only on the front, so it is not a direct swap (had to press out those new CTD polymer eyelet things, much better design than what was used on previous shocks). Funny how people around here rave the polymer bushing on the shock eyelet but complain about them on the older rune/spit/whatever...
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  35. #585
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    Enel, now that sounds a little more like the results that I'm having.

  36. #586
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    29ers look 1000x better in a large/xl size. That black Prime by Jonesy looks proper that's for sure.

    And for that bar to saddle diff, I'd say it's pretty common, especially if you got a large inseam and shortish torso like I do. My bikes look exactly like that in climbing mode.

  37. #587
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    So for those of you running the CC DBAir, how many of you have upgraded to the (recommended by CaneCreek) XV can and did it make a big difference (especially if you are a bigger rider)? I'm still waiting for the snow to melt (and a headset) before I can get mine out on the road to start dialing it in, so I've got the time to order one if it's worthwhile.

  38. #588
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    It is funny how some go for larger volume air cans in air shocks and others need to reduce the chamber volume.

    I'd say the heavier riders need higher pressures for 25% sag, which would lead to a very progressive shock, hence going for larger volume air spring.
    On the other hands, the lighter folks run less pressure for the same 25% sag, making the shock blow through the travel too fast, sometimes requiring air can spacing to get less volume.

    Am I right?

    On a coil shock, could a more pyramid like compression shim stack avoid using too much travel? Ideally it should let the spring act the way it did in the beginning of travel, but start ramping up earlier. Or boosting the IFP pressure would net the same? Such a pity the van R doesn't have a schrader valve on the piggyback so I could tinker with it's inwards
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  39. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinS View Post
    So for those of you running the CC DBAir, how many of you have upgraded to the (recommended by CaneCreek) XV can and did it make a big difference (especially if you are a bigger rider)? I'm still waiting for the snow to melt (and a headset) before I can get mine out on the road to start dialing it in, so I've got the time to order one if it's worthwhile.
    I ordered the XV can from Cane Creek direct about a month ago and haven't gotten it yet, so there might not be many people out there with one on their bike.

  40. #590
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    Colin, how does it ride now, and what do you weigh?
    G_g, you make some good points, it's not too uncommon for different sizes of riders to run different air cans, not too much different than different spring weights in coil shocks. The can on the DB Air seems pretty big now, especially compared to the DHX Air on my proto, but I realize it is a very different shock.
    Unfortunately without a headset (still a couple of weeks away) I can't jump on the bike to check sag etc, so any input is appreciated.

  41. #591
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    Re: Production Prime Photo/Build thread

    My prime with cane creek coil.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Production Prime Photo/Build thread-uploadfromtaptalk1364288608744.jpg  

    Last edited by chullas; 03-26-2013 at 08:47 AM.

  42. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by thematthewjones View Post
    Some pics of my new XL Prime in black - not great quality but I figured this thread could do with pictures regardless of quality.
    Have you sorted out your seat height yet? If so could you take some more pictures? You're right, this build thread is seriously lacking in actual pictures of the bike that the thread is about!

    I'm 6'6" and seriously looking at the Prime as my next bike. There aren't many photos out there of the XL size.

    Oh, and, sweet looking bike!
    I'm leaning towards the black frame myself.

  43. #593
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    There are definitely pics of XL proto's around, check the Prime Participation thread. I posted several there.
    At 6'6" you should fit an XL well. I'm 6'4" with a long torso (I'd be around 6'6" - 6'7" if my legs were proportional) and it fits like a glove. One thing to note, the headtube on the proto is significantly longer, I had to run a wide flat bar to get it where I wanted, I'm planning on running a riser bar on my production frame.

  44. #594
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    Production Prime Photo/Build thread

    Production Prime Photo/Build thread-imageuploadedbytapatalk1364346399.734781.jpgProduction Prime Photo/Build thread-imageuploadedbytapatalk1364346522.217660.jpg

    I continue to be impressed. Climbs tech insanely well.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  45. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    1. This thing feels like a beast to pedal uphill. Pedaling efficiency from a mini-link? I am just not feeling it. It feels dead and like it sucks the life out of me with every pedal stroke. Worse or equal to a 6" Lunchbox. The thing is just a total pig and I find myself hating it for this at times. That feeling may get worse as the higher more steady climby trails open up around here. This climbing issue may just be life with a 34+ish pound bike. I have never liked them that heavy although the Stumpjumper was 32, so not a big difference. As a steady state climber, I find it to feel worse than the Stumpjumper, worse than a Behemoth (5") about equal to a Lunchbox (which has an inch more travel).

    2. The rear of the Prime does something weird when I put the power on in the low gears. Whatever that thing is (Stiffening? Falling deeper into the travel? Extending out of travel? I don't know.), it causes an instant and unexpected loss of traction in loose over hard stuff. I notice it when I transition from a seated to standing position up a steep, short rise in lower gears. Of course any bike will struggle for traction in this sort of situation with small gears and standing rider, but I have done these moves many times with the my single pivots and the FSR. All my other bikes did not do this...whatever "this" is. Mostly it is the unexpectedness of the loss of traction that gets on my nerves. It is very abrupt when I hit the power transitioning from a seated spin to standing high power uphill sprint. I have a pretty decent sense of standing traction from a bunch of single speed riding, and this bike catches me off guard a lot.
    Still experiencing this, Enel, even with your new and improved lessened sag?

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    Production Prime Photo/Build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Still experiencing this, Enel, even with your new and improved lessened sag?
    No, the spring rate was the issue. I have no beefs with this frame right now.

    Get the sag right and it will
    Love you well
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  47. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    No, the spring rate was the issue. I have no beefs with this frame right now.

    Get the sag right and it will
    Love you well
    Glad that you're having better results now. Even though mine's up around 35 lbs, I still choose it over my Paradox or El Mariachi for everything. Just built up my MTX33's this past weekend, probably 36 lbs now, the new Maxxis 29ers will probably push it up to 37. Still gonna ride the crap out of it.

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    Production Prime Photo/Build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Glad that you're having better results now. Even though mine's up around 35 lbs, I still choose it over my Paradox or El Mariachi for everything. Just built up my MTX33's this past weekend, probably 36 lbs now, the new Maxxis 29ers will probably push it up to 37. Still gonna ride the crap out of it.
    I am starting to notice a couple things:
    1. Wheel flex.
    2. I am more regularly flatting my beloved FR3 tires primarily through the casing. I thought these were indestructible, but I am hitting stuff harder I think and sort of slowly killing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  49. #599
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    Quote Originally Posted by RideEverything View Post
    Have you sorted out your seat height yet? If so could you take some more pictures? You're right, this build thread is seriously lacking in actual pictures of the bike that the thread is about!

    I'm 6'6" and seriously looking at the Prime as my next bike. There aren't many photos out there of the XL size.

    Oh, and, sweet looking bike!
    I'm leaning towards the black frame myself.
    Looking at the XL size? The Large is more on par with the regular 20" Honzo, I remember you saying a while back how the 20" Long Honzo is something you can't imagine fitting you properly, or being playful to ride. Reach on the XL Prime is even longer than the 20" L Honzo.
    konahonzo

  50. #600
    FM
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    FWIW I have to throw down a solid endorsement for the easton haven carbon wheels. I picked up a used set in august, they dropped a bit of weight off compared to my 32h flows, but the difference in stiffness was incredible. Even after tons of use they are true as new. They also work great tubeless.
    The original hubs were kinda meh, but the most recent *free* easton hub upgrade basically disables the pre-load adjustment and makes the hub a press-together design, similar to Hope Pro 2's. Great product support by easton!
    The MSRP is stupid, but not hard to find these for $1k-1500usd & well worth it IMO.

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