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Thread: Prime sizing?

  1. #1
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    Prime sizing?

    Does anyone know if a small will be available Im 5'5' and think the med will be to big,I have a jet -9 and a yelli both small and they fit good.the yelli I had to slide the seat back a little(60mm stem).

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    I'm afraid that the Prime will only be avaliable in Medium, Large, and XL. But if you get a shot I'd try to get a test ride on a medium frame before you rule it out. I believe we have a couple of testers who are similar stature to you, who are loving it.
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    do you know when will they be available?

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    The design has been finalised, and submitted to forgers etc... but I don't want to give a time line just yet, as opening forgings and new hydroformings often come with complications and delays. When we have a confirmed date we will make sure everyone knows about it, but that will be a few months off.
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    thanks.....thats cool not in any rush... that will be the next prject

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    I'm 5'-8", so I can't really say if the medium is right for you or not..but I think with the right build it would "fit" fine, long as you aren't looking for that super compact flickable DJ-style handling.

    One thing that will make a big difference, do what you can to keep the bars low. Integral top headset top cup, no spacers and probably a flat bar. If there's anything that makes my prime feel big, it's the bar height, as a result I'm swapping headsets to lower them 1cm.

    The prime has really nice low standover & bb, seems like with a 35 or 50mm stem, in-line seatpost, and low bars it should "fit" you fine. It's a rad bike!
    Last edited by FM; 04-27-2012 at 08:31 AM.

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    On the stack height front, for production the prime with have a tapered zero stack compatible head tube to give the option of a low front end to those that ones it.
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    what travel fork is it built around?can you run a dual crown?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    It's a rad bike!
    Counting on it. Already put a deposit down, have my F34, Saint brakes, and XT cranks sitting on the bench, waiting for production.

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    It is designed around single crown forks in 120-160mm travel range.
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  11. #11
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    bump! I'm 6' 3" and wondering if I should go with L or XL. Based on measurements I typically go by, I fall right in the middle between L & XL. FWIW I am planning to run a 140mm fork and a short stem.

    Or, is there anyone with a Large in New England (Eastern MA) who might allow me to test-ride/test fit? I have a kitchen pass to buy a bike, and want to pre-order asap so I can ride it this season!

  12. #12
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    I was in your position, as I'm also 6'3" and the L/XL break seemed to be right around where my previous frames have been. I went with the L (with Keith's input, too) and can't overstate how pleased I am with that choice. I haven't looked at the production geometry in any detail, however, so I'm not certain what may have changed, if anything. For reference, I have a long torso and short legs. I buy 32" inseam jeans, or 33" if I find them. 34"s drag at the heels.

    I am now a firm believer in FM's advice to choose the smallest frame you can comfortably ride. For AM riding, at least. The bike doesn't need to fit me like a time trial bike, since I'm not stuck in a static position all day. I routinely do sequential 1,000' climbs around town, and 3,000 climbs out in the woods, so sustained climbing hasn't been an issue.

    My L Yelli Screamy has a slightly longer cockpit, and I actually find it a bit tougher on my back for sustained climbs. Both my bikes have 50mm stems, by the way.

    I still have 1 spacer under my stem, and I'm considering getting rid of it. My WFO9 had a stack height that looked ridiculous in photos (I see that a lot with that frame for some reason), but as the Prime encourages me to go (much) faster and corner more aggressively, the benefits of the lower stack are obvious.

  13. #13
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    My suggestion, go by your current bikes and how it fits you. If you like the fit, then measure the ETT, reach and stack and compare to the geo of the Prime, then select which is closest to it between the L and XL. Me, 6'2.25" tall, 35.25" inseam and long arms and find the XL with 70mm stem and 785mm wide bars perfect.

    I started out on a 24.5" ETT with my Giant Trance, but when I moved to 29ers got a 25.25" ETT and have stuck to that or a little longer since and been very happy, recently built up some 650B wheels and threw one upfront on the Trance to see how it felt and it felt cramped still with the shorter cockpit and wheelbase felt too twitchy @ 45.5". Don't worry about the long wheelbase of the Prime, it only matters when you measure it, other than that it doesn't ride/steer like the measurement might indicate it would.

    Attached pics of me on my XL Prime for comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by C.P. View Post
    bump! I'm 6' 3" and wondering if I should go with L or XL. Based on measurements I typically go by, I fall right in the middle between L & XL. FWIW I am planning to run a 140mm fork and a short stem.

    Or, is there anyone with a Large in New England (Eastern MA) who might allow me to test-ride/test fit? I have a kitchen pass to buy a bike, and want to pre-order asap so I can ride it this season!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Prime sizing?-capture3.jpg  

    Prime sizing?-gil_3089.jpg  

    Prime sizing?-gil_3063.jpg  

    Last edited by LyNx; 07-09-2012 at 08:55 AM.
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    I'm a bit over 6'3" with a 34 inseam and the XL fits perfect with a 60 mm stem and 710 mm flat bar, for me the L would have been pretty small. I personally like the roomy-ness of the front end, especially for 3 - 4 hour rides with a bunch o' climbing, DH's aren't a problem either except for the tightest of hairpins.

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    Thanks for the input guys, I'm also 34" inseam. I tend to like the smallest frame I can fit on, since most of my rides involve some sort of cross-struntry/freeride aspects thrown in here/there; but I already have a (26") freeride specific bike, so I also want to be able to take this on a long (over 3 hours) rides and not feel held back by the setup, tough demands I know, but this is kinda why I have my eye on the Prime. I'd loved to get a test ride on either a L or XL, that would tell a lot.

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    Hey C.P. - I live in Burlington Ma and have a medium. I know it's not the sizes you asked about but if you want to meet up and check it out drop me a pm.

    Regards,
    SF

    Quote Originally Posted by C.P. View Post
    bump! I'm 6' 3" and wondering if I should go with L or XL. Based on measurements I typically go by, I fall right in the middle between L & XL. FWIW I am planning to run a 140mm fork and a short stem.

    Or, is there anyone with a Large in New England (Eastern MA) who might allow me to test-ride/test fit? I have a kitchen pass to buy a bike, and want to pre-order asap so I can ride it this season!
    The other Fred........

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    I want to preorder a prime but im not sure if i should go for the M oder L frame.

    size: 176cm with 77cm inseam.

    i tested a Santa Cruz LTa in L for a few days with a 6cm stem.
    reach and stack is nearly the same for a LTa in L and a Prime in M.

    The shorter seattube in the Prime M is fine for me. The seattube from the LTa was a little bit to long.
    The only big difference is that the Toptube lenght from the prime is 580mm and the one from the LTa is 610mm. So how much does those 30mm impact in the frame geo? When Reach and stack is nearly identical the seat will remain nearly in the same position, the only difference here is then the angel of the seattube is stepper so that reach and stack is identical but tube is 30mm shorter.
    im right with my assumption? if not please correct me.

    so what you guys think, what will fit me better, M or L? (if it matters: i like to make "tours" 1:30h - 3h and vertical climbs aswell)

  18. #18
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    My fit: 6'3" on a L

    I've gotten few PMs asking about my fit, so I'll pass on my $0.02 as someone who fell between the L and the XL. I'm 6'3" but with a long torso, short legs. I buy 32" jeans. Happy bike fit includes a lot of personal preference, so I'll try to spell out what I like, too.

    My previous 3 bikes all had 24.5" ETTs and that was the first number I looked at with the Prime. That's where I was waffling between L and XL. I hadn't learned to think in terms of reach/stack yet. I traded a couple emails with Keith after tying my brain in knots, and he encouraged me to stick with my first thought, the L. Niner didn't publish reach on their chart, so I had to figure it from an online calculator. 435mm is what I came up with, which is actually 5mm shorter than the Prime's 440mm reach. I was a little worried about the lower stack height, since the L Prime is 635mm versus the 667mm I calculated for my WFO9. Notice the (silly in hindsight) stack height in the photo below.

    Here's a picture of me standing with my L WFO9 (first generation). That thing felt really tall to me, particularly in the standover.

    Prime sizing?-pa180172.jpg

    And me with my L Prime.

    Prime sizing?-primemta.jpg

    And for comparison, here's a friend of mine on my Prime. He's a hair under 5'11" but has legs slightly longer than mine (buys 34" jeans). He currently rides a M Knolly Endorphin but is planning to move to a L frame on his next build. He liked the fit of the L Prime.

    Prime sizing?-photo-aug-05-7-49-53-pm.jpg

    EDIT: added this photo of him from a slightly different angle. The frame doesn't look quite so long in this perspective.

    Prime sizing?-photo-aug-05-7-49-39-pm.jpg

    I have had stretched-out XC fits before (see my EMD9 below)

    Prime sizing?-img_1182.jpg

    but for this class of bike I prefer a more upright riding position. I want room to move the bike around underneath me. My short legs probably play into this a bit - I'd have a hard time with the XL. My home trails include 1-2 mile climbs that are 400-600 feet/mile, and when we get out into the woods, we climb USFS trails that average 500 feet/mile for 5-6 miles. I'm quite happy with the L for those climbs. I move around the cockpit a bit and stand occasionally, so I find fit is a bit forgiving in a AM bike.

    Hope that helps a few of you. You're going to love it. Fire away with questions if I've forgotten something or been unclear.
    Last edited by evasive; 08-15-2012 at 02:07 PM. Reason: added a photo

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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I've gotten few PMs asking about my fit, so I'll pass on my $0.02 as someone who fell between the L and the XL. I'm 6'3" but with a long torso, short legs. I buy 32" jeans. Happy bike fit includes a lot of personal preference, so I'll try to spell out what I like, too.

    My previous 3 bikes all had 24.5" ETTs and that was the first number I looked at with the Prime. That's where I was waffling between L and XL. I hadn't learned to think in terms of reach/stack yet. I traded a couple emails with Keith after tying my brain in knots, and he encouraged me to stick with my first thought, the L. Niner didn't publish reach on their chart, so I had to figure it from an online calculator. 435mm is what I came up with, which is actually 5mm shorter than the Prime's 440mm reach. I was a little worried about the lower stack height, since the L Prime is 635mm versus the 667mm I calculated for my WFO9. Notice the (silly in hindsight) stack height in the photo below.

    Here's a picture of me standing with my L WFO9 (first generation). That thing felt really tall to me, particularly in the standover.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And me with my L Prime.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And for comparison, here's a friend of mine on my Prime. He's a hair under 5'11" but has legs slightly longer than mine (buys 34" jeans). He currently rides a M Knolly Endorphin but is planning to move to a L frame on his next build. He liked the fit of the L Prime.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    EDIT: added this photo of him from a slightly different angle. The frame doesn't look quite so long in this perspective.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have had stretched-out XC fits before (see my EMD9 below)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    but for this class of bike I prefer a more upright riding position. I want room to move the bike around underneath me. My short legs probably play into this a bit - I'd have a hard time with the XL. My home trails include 1-2 mile climbs that are 400-600 feet/mile, and when we get out into the woods, we climb USFS trails that average 500 feet/mile for 5-6 miles. I'm quite happy with the L for those climbs. I move around the cockpit a bit and stand occasionally, so I find fit is a bit forgiving in a AM bike.

    Hope that helps a few of you. You're going to love it. Fire away with questions if I've forgotten something or been unclear.
    Very informative on your "comparison" with the Niner sizing, with that said, I want to translate my sizing to the Prime, I know it's like comparing apples and oranges in terms of geometry but I hope I can come up with a decision when the time comes to get a Prime. I am 6ft flat and an inseam of 34", proportional torso and limbs.

    I ride a '99 RIP9 L and the sizing for me is perfect when I do casual trail riding but when it comes to fast tight corners and jumps, I wished I got the M. I did demo a 99 WFO medium, and I felt that I was at home with it. Now I think I am a tweener between the Medium and Large with the production geo of the Prime. You input would be much appreciated...BTW, I live in the Philippines and it's very rare to try out demo bikes out here. Thanks!

  20. #20
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    It sounds to me like you have it figured out. You could probably be comfortable on either, but let yourself be guided by your intended use. Assuming you can get the saddle height you want, it sounds like the M is what you're looking for. Are you keeping your current bike? If you are, then the decision is even easier.

    I'm in the field and on my phone, but IIRC, the Prime's reach measurement is slightly longer than the WFO (confirm that with the production geometry chart). If that is the case, the Prime may feel slightly roomier than the WFO you tried out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    It sounds to me like you have it figured out. You could probably be comfortable on either, but let yourself be guided by your intended use. Assuming you can get the saddle height you want, it sounds like the M is what you're looking for. Are you keeping your current bike? If you are, then the decision is even easier.

    I'm in the field and on my phone, but IIRC, the Prime's reach measurement is slightly longer than the WFO (confirm that with the production geometry chart). If that is the case, the Prime may feel slightly roomier than the WFO you tried out.
    You certainly are right, I think I answered my own question. haha. I'm keeping my current bike. I do want to take the prime on the occasional weekend DH races and FR romps ( no big ass drops and the like) round my place and pretty much make it an alternative to my RIP as an AM bike. thanks for the enlightenment! Now it's much easier to make my decision size wise, now if I can only sell my soul...

  22. #22
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    G'day!

    I'm currently at a loss. Was aiming for a L Prime and ride a rigid SS Kona Unit 29er in 19" which fit me fine. The Prime will mostly do Trail duty and I'm a clyde that is kind of rough with my bikes so I think it will do just fine.

    At 186 cm with 89 cm inseam I have my saddle at 82,5 cm from center BB according to the BG-fit I did last year.

    Haven't had the opportunity to testride a lot of 29ers and then today I tested an XL Spec Stumpy FSR which fit me incredibly well, even with a 90 mm stem. All legs and arms I guess? It has a reach of 466 and a stack of 656.

    The L Prime has 440 reach and the XL 470 reach and they both have a stack of 633 according to the official numbers.

    Seems like an XL Prime would fit me fine with a 60 mm stem? I've never ridden that large a bike ever. Scares me a little.

    Do you guys have any input? Don't want to buy the wrong size so to speak.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketfuel View Post
    G'day!

    Do you guys have any input? Don't want to buy the wrong size so to speak.
    Not to be a broken record, but I would always reccomend the smaller size, when in doubt. Benefits of the smaller frame being shorter wheelbase- quicker turning and easier to lift the front end! Both good things especially with big wheels

    35mm difference in top tube length and wheelbase between the L and XL.

    You're only 10cm taller than I am, and I am on a medium proto with a 50mm stem. Hard to believe you'd want to ride a bike 2 sizes larger.... although the protos do fit a tiny bit larger than the production frames. A stretched out fit may feel comfortable, but may sacrifice handling to get that roomy fit. Wider bars make bikes feel larger, so I'd max out the bar width before you put a longer stem on or upsize the frame.

    Just my .02c... take it with a grain of salt as I'm 175cm.

  24. #24
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    And yet here I am, not even a 1/4" shorter than you (6'2"), I'm on an XL proto with 70mm stem and 785mm bar I've always ridden bikes with a ETT of 24.5" or longer and since moving to 29ers have been above 25". I have a 35.25" inseam and very long arms, so I think we're of quite similar builds.

    Biggest deciding factor is your intended usage for the bike. For me I like big chunky, slow, steep and the stability the XL gives me is unreal, I also don't leave the ground much if any, so having the larger bike isn't as much of a concern. My bike is an all around bike I use for anywhere from XC to I guess you could say Trail/light AM and the 48" WB has not given me ANY trouble on any of my tight, technical trails, if anything I've cleared more since I got the Prime - stalling and sticking are easier and response when I pedal kick is right on. FYI, I cam off riding an XL Paradox for 1.5 years with a 45" WB and yet, for me somehow (still haven't quite figured this out yet) the Prime's handling with it's 48" WB just doesn't feel that much different - actually only felt it when I initially hoped on it.

    I'd love to try a L Prime for sure, just to see how it would feel, but I don't have the luxury to even see another Banshee down here except my Paradox, so it'd be a costly experiment to buy and ship one in.

    Couple pics of me next to my XL Prime and on it, more pics above. If you like to sit more upright than that, then I'd think the L would do you fine, for me in that position I feel quite "sat up".

    Quote Originally Posted by rocketfuel View Post
    G'day!
    Seems like an XL Prime would fit me fine with a 60 mm stem? I've never ridden that large a bike ever. Scares me a little.

    Do you guys have any input? Don't want to buy the wrong size so to speak.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Not to be a broken record, but I would always reccomend the smaller size, when in doubt. Benefits of the smaller frame being shorter wheelbase- quicker turning and easier to lift the front end! Both good things especially with big wheels

    35mm difference in top tube length and wheelbase between the L and XL.

    You're only 10cm taller than I am, and I am on a medium proto with a 50mm stem. Hard to believe you'd want to ride a bike 2 sizes larger.... although the protos do fit a tiny bit larger than the production frames. A stretched out fit may feel comfortable, but may sacrifice handling to get that roomy fit. Wider bars make bikes feel larger, so I'd max out the bar width before you put a longer stem on or upsize the frame.

    Just my .02c... take it with a grain of salt as I'm 175cm.


    Last edited by LyNx; 09-23-2012 at 12:57 PM.
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    I'm 193 cm with an 87 cm inseam (converted from my previous post)and ride an XL with a 60 mm stem and 710 mm bars and it fits me for the fast tight twisty singletrack and long rides where I live. I'm with FM on this one, I'd push you towards the L if you don't have the monkey arms of LyNx
    Do you have the opportunity to take out a L Stumpy? It's numbers seem close to the L Prime in the stack and reach....

  26. #26
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    Cool thing about opinions, they're all correct. Each individual prefers different things. LyNx does downhills just fine opting for a larger frame, FM puts in some killer climbs opting for a smaller frame. It all depends on your riding style, no one shoe fits them all. Personally, if I stretch out too far my neck gets really sore the day after a hard ride, and too far really isn't that far. I had thought that I had my large Paradox fitting like a glove, but I just dropped my stem from 90mm to 70, and went wider on my bars from 711mm to 750. It felt wrong at first, but yesterday I got in a 1740 ft climb in 3 miles and once the first 15 minutes were out of the way it felt great. I was even getting up near FM altitude, 10,000 ft, I usually ride at 2000 or less.

    For those that are still trying to figure out size, I have not yet received my Prime, but have done much "figuring". I'm 6', 32" inseam, borderline L/M Prime. I ordered a Med, plan to use a 50-70mm stem, 750mm bars, seat post extended 30.25" BB C/L to saddle top.
    Low and slack.

  27. #27
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    I much prefer Gibbon or Orangutang thank you very much, much more accurate description of how long they are

    Thing is, I still have the option to go down in stem length if I'd like to what you guys are running (50-60mm), but can't see that would be possible on a L, would have to use at least an 80mm going by current fit. Also going by how my Trance with 24.5" ETT felt when I rode it last a couple months ago trying out a 650B front wheel, I know I like the longer TT. Maybe next time I get up to Canada I'll have a chance to try a L and see just exactly how it does feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinS View Post
    I'm 193 cm with an 87 cm inseam (converted from my previous post)and ride an XL with a 60 mm stem and 710 mm bars and it fits me for the fast tight twisty singletrack and long rides where I live. I'm with FM on this one, I'd push you towards the L if you don't have the monkey arms of LyNx
    Do you have the opportunity to take out a L Stumpy? It's numbers seem close to the L Prime in the stack and reach....
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Maybe next time I get up to Canada I'll have a chance to try a L and see just exactly how it does feel.
    Swing through Phoenix on your way home, I've got a trail here with your name on it.
    Low and slack.

  29. #29
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    Hum, what, the trail with the Waterfall on it, National? Don't think even the Prime could give me what I need to clean that, although I did also say that about trails I now ride on the Prime with utter confidence, so who knows FYI, Hoping for summer 2013 if all goes well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Swing through Phoenix on your way home, I've got a trail here with your name on it.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  30. #30
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    Lots of stuff here that you would thoroughly enjoy, I would consider it a privilege to show you around. You'd even have a Paradox to ride, doesn't get much better than that.
    Low and slack.

  31. #31
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    Worry not about the need for a loaner bike, when I travel, my bike travels with me I've done it twice for stays up to 4 weeks and easily fitted all normal and bike clothing along with everything else I need, although depending on how things are going financially I might leave a "piece" or two or parts here and pick up new stuff while away - New X-Fusion Trace has my name all over it BTW, don't think anyone saying they'd be privileged to show me around is right, maybe glad, I'm just an avg rider with so-so skills who just likes riding MTBs too damn much to know I can't ride what I ride


    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Lots of stuff here that you would thoroughly enjoy, I would consider it a privilege to show you around. You'd even have a Paradox to ride, doesn't get much better than that.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  32. #32
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    Thanks guys, will try to get my leg over a Large Stumpy to see if that fits alright. Rode a Turner 5-spot for a number of years with a 600mm ETT and a 100 mm stem which seemed alright.I've always seen a Large to fit me nice and proper but XL might be the way to go.

    I do have long legs, seat is 82,5 cm from the center off BB so I haveto measure it on a Prime to see what kind of seatpost I would need.

  33. #33
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    I can tell you right now, your saddle height is about where I run mine and with the 350mm post that Banshee ship with all their frames, it was at the max extension mark and I still wanted a bit more for proper pedaling height, so I run a 410mm one instead. Looking at the finalized geo and the one for the pre-production they've stuck with the same ST lengths, so if you get an XL you'd probably need a 410mm post and if L most definitely.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocketfuel View Post
    Thanks guys, will try to get my leg over a Large Stumpy to see if that fits alright. Rode a Turner 5-spot for a number of years with a 600mm ETT and a 100 mm stem which seemed alright.I've always seen a Large to fit me nice and proper but XL might be the way to go.

    I do have long legs, seat is 82,5 cm from the center off BB so I haveto measure it on a Prime to see what kind of seatpost I would need.
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  34. #34
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    I was just looking at this, it really is the best fit advice you will get!


    Size: Medium / Large / Xtra Large
    To fit rider height : < 5' 11" [180cm] / 5'11" - 6'3"[180-191cm] / >6'3"[>191cm]

    Rocketfuel, you are dead on in the center of the large size range.

    Focus on stack & reach, and try to ignore the TT and ST length numbers... with the slack seat tube those become misleading/irrelevant.

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    Idea!

    Hi there !!

    I'm looking for build my own bike and one of my favorite bike is Banshee Prime.

    I'm 6"2 and 37" inseam and I don't know if I should take a L or XL frame.

    My previous bike was a stumpy FSR 29' size XL and I've changed original stem (100mm lenght) for a 60mm stem, and my position on bike was good mainly in climb.

    Thanks for your advice and sorry for my mistakes

  36. #36
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    You've got quite long legs....I think XL is your sole choice.
    with 34+ I'm barely on L.

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    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    You've got quite long legs....I think XL is your sole choice.
    with 34+ I'm barely on L.
    you're not comfortable on L ?

  38. #38
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    yeah I'm good on L but with 37" inseam you'll have huge amount of seatpost out and maybe you have to ride long stem.
    I think the combo "XL- shorter stem" it's better.
    Longer TT - shorter stems is also the way new geo trend in enduro bikes is moving.

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    Ok, thanks filbike

  40. #40
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    Yeah, I could barely find a droppost long enough with 34+ legs on a L.

  41. #41
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    I'm 3 marks down max on my KS 5" with skiiinnny saddle

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    If I put a Reverb (or KS Lev), it does not solve the problem ?

  43. #43
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    I'm your height, but my inseam is only 35.25" and I do not think I would feel safe at how close the post would be to max. Right now with my XL I had to switch to a 410mm post because on the stock 350mm it came with I had to run it at the maxx setting and even then it needed to go up a bit. Had no trouble running an X-Fusion HiLo 100mm post on my XL, will be ordering a 125mm version when I order again as I had the room to use it.

    FYI, I run a 65mm stem with 785mm wide bar, 175mm cranks.
    Quote Originally Posted by avid13 View Post
    Hi there !!

    I'm looking for build my own bike and one of my favorite bike is Banshee Prime.

    I'm 6"2 and 37" inseam and I don't know if I should take a L or XL frame.

    My previous bike was a stumpy FSR 29' size XL and I've changed original stem (100mm lenght) for a 60mm stem, and my position on bike was good mainly in climb.

    Thanks for your advice and sorry for my mistakes
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I'm your height, but my inseam is only 35.25" and I do not think I would feel safe at how close the post would be to max. Right now with my XL I had to switch to a 410mm post because on the stock 350mm it came with I had to run it at the maxx setting and even then it needed to go up a bit. Had no trouble running an X-Fusion HiLo 100mm post on my XL, will be ordering a 125mm version when I order again as I had the room to use it.

    FYI, I run a 65mm stem with 785mm wide bar, 175mm cranks.
    what's the behavior of the bike with this size, whether climb or downhill ?

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    I'm the same size (189/94cm) and I'm happy on a large Prime with 30mm stem (50mm would be better for more XC stuff). My seat height is 80cm from BB to top of saddle and I'm using a KS LEV 150.

  46. #46
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    I'm 6' 2" tested both L & XL. I found that although the L was fun to rip through park style riding, the XL fit the bill better for overall riding (30+ mile epics, etc). At 6'2", I feel the XL is still capable for most of the park style riding you could throw at it, depending on the build, and for this kind of build IMO a dropper post is a must...

    6+ footer w/ transition no problem (crappy cell pic)

    Prime sizing?-1150425_599987583385618_781922703_n.jpg
    Last edited by C.P.; 08-16-2013 at 07:43 AM.

  47. #47
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    Climbing, like a scared mtn goat mixed with a lizards ability to stick to anything, even vertical Descending, super fun, but, it is an XL and well if this is your size you've already learned it'll require a bit more body english than a smaller bike. WB on the XL is 48" on the nose with 140mm F34. Forgot to mention, centre of BB to top of saddle measurement is 32.5". Honestly would like to try a L, but if going off blind with no test, def would go for the XL with your inseam.

    Quote Originally Posted by avid13 View Post
    what's the behavior of the bike with this size, whether climb or downhill ?
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    unfortunately, they aren't many Banshee where I am so it will be very difficult for me to test...

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    Hi Walt.

    how it behaves on climb ? the front doesn't rise ?


    Quote Originally Posted by walt06 View Post
    I'm the same size (189/94cm) and I'm happy on a large Prime with 30mm stem (50mm would be better for more XC stuff). My seat height is 80cm from BB to top of saddle and I'm using a KS LEV 150.

  50. #50
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    @avid13

    It climbs great, even with the 30mm stem, thanks to the 29er wheels and long chainstays. I'm running a 140mm Fox 34 Float, no need for travel adjust.

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    Thanks walt

  52. #52
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    Agree, no travel adjust necessary. Prime climbs exceptionally well, seated in granny it claws it's way through anything that you've got legs enough for, mashing taller gear tech it pops onto and velcro's it way through everything as long as you can keep just a bit of forward momentum. Amazing climber. My build is Pike front and CCDBair rear, it's like riding a magic carpet.

  53. #53
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    Yup, most definitely climbs superb and definitely does not need a travel adjust fork, 140mm upfront is perfect, choose you angles depending on your terrain and riding style. Our pre-productions are reversed to the production in the effect changin the angles via the drop out has on the chainstay length, for us the slack setting has the shotest possible stays and the steep the longest, on production AFAIK that reversed as I said.

    @ Walt, not quite sure where you get the Prime has long stays from, I think 17.3" is quite short for a 130mm travel 29er and for me on my XL wouldn't want them any shorter anyways since at my height my weight is further back over the rear wheel. I rode a Paradox exclusively for 1.5 years before I got the Prime andit was absolutely the best climbing bike I'd ridden to date, then I got the Prime and realised I had been wrong, unless on smooth climbs the Prime kills the Paradox in climbing.
    Quote Originally Posted by avid13 View Post
    Hi Walt.
    how it behaves on climb ? the front doesn't rise ?
    Quote Originally Posted by walt06 View Post
    It climbs great, even with the 30mm stem, thanks to the 29er wheels and long chainstays. I'm running a 140mm Fox 34 Float, no need for travel adjust.
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  54. #54
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    Because my Paradox is a bit light in the front, I had a small fear that the Prime would be also, especially considering that I went medium instead of large. Nope. Light enough to manual at will, but heavy enough to stay planted when climbing. A very well balanced bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    @ Walt, not quite sure where you get the Prime has long stays from, I think 17.3" is quite short for a 130mm travel 29er and for me on my XL wouldn't want them any shorter anyways since at my height my weight is further back over the rear wheel.
    17.4", at least at the banshee hp. maybe pre production was shorter?

  56. #56
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    I thought the pre-pro's were 17.5/17.7 actually. I'm going off memory however.

  57. #57
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    Prime sizing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin+M View Post
    I thought the pre-pro's were 17.5/17.7 actually. I'm going off memory however.
    17.6/17.8 according to the geometry chart I have.

  58. #58
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    I knew it was longer than production models, thanks.

  59. #59
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    Kill me for .1" then

    Yes Evasive has is right, 17.6/17.8" and from my experience riding mine in both settings and how it climbs and handles I just don't see wanting shorter than the production 17.4" stays, not to have to work harder on the steep slimbs where right now it just kills
    Quote Originally Posted by pinkey View Post
    17.4", at least at the banshee hp. maybe pre production was shorter?
    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    17.6/17.8 according to the geometry chart I have.
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  60. #60
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    Kind of like the fork. Does .1 really matter on a chain stay? Or does 5mm of trail really matter? I mean any place besides on paper. Now days, everything is designed on a computer. I'm sure the Banshee crew did not build a bunch of different length chain stay frames for testing purposes, and I'm willing to bet that not a one ever saw a wind tunnel. What they did do, is use their experience, and best guess, and create a prototype, which they then let people critique. Their production Prime is exactly what the real world said that it should be. And this bike kicks ass!! It is extremely solid, it can be built extremely heavy duty, downhill it will gobble up everything that I have balls enough to throw it at, and it climbs in a manner that is simply amazing. The only limitation that my Prime has, is me.

  61. #61
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    Most definitely Optimus, for the offset of the fork, yes, 5mm makes a difference, most definitely or at least for me. When I got my Prime with it's WB being 3" longer than my Paradox I thought for sure it was going to handle sluggishly compared, but to my surprise it did not, it was nearly an un-decernable difference. I attribute that largely to the different offset between the Minute I had on the Paradox compared to the F34 on the Prime.

    As to the chainstay length, no, I don't think .1"/2.5mm is something anyone can feel, hence the comment, but the change from say 18" to 17.4" to me would be something I could feel - I had an FS with that long stays and it was not nearly as nimble as the Prime.

    On the protos, they actually made 3 (Medium, Large and X-Large) and they rode the M & L frames or their team riders rode them and then from there they took that feedback and came up with changes for the pre-production frames for real world/avg Joe testing, then they took that feedback, along with Keith's always active tinkering brain and made more changes based on all that. So what you're riding was not just created on a computer and that's it, it went through some good testing in various competency riders hands before production was settled upon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Kind of like the fork. Does .1 really matter on a chain stay? Or does 5mm of trail really matter? I mean any place besides on paper. Now days, everything is designed on a computer. I'm sure the Banshee crew did not build a bunch of different length chain stay frames for testing purposes, and I'm willing to bet that not a one ever saw a wind tunnel. What they did do, is use their experience, and best guess, and create a prototype, which they then let people critique. Their production Prime is exactly what the real world said that it should be. And this bike kicks ass!! It is extremely solid, it can be built extremely heavy duty, downhill it will gobble up everything that I have balls enough to throw it at, and it climbs in a manner that is simply amazing. The only limitation that my Prime has, is me.
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  62. #62
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    Don't know that I personally would be able to tell 5mm difference in offset, it works out to something like 10ish mm linear, if I remember correctly. But, I have noticed a difference in steering feel going from a smallish 2.3 to a 2.5, so maybe it's the same thing. As far as letting you fella's demo the proto's, I think that was the perfect plan.

  63. #63
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    Don't know that I personally would be able to tell 5mm difference in offset
    No offense to Lynx, but I'd think the difference, if noticeable, would be very subtle. Combined with different travel, a2c length, damper and chassis differences, of course it all adds up to a noticeable change. I think we can all agree that you'd have to compare the same fork (with different offsets but same settings) on the same bike, same rider and same trail to objectively prove this out.

    Most people seem to agree the change is similar to +/- .5d head angle change or less, which is pretty subtle.

  64. #64
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    None taken FM, everyone is different, that's why Banshee's testing philosophy is so great, they choose a wide range of rider types and skills and take all that feedback into consideration when making changes. Just a bit of an FYI, I unfortunately suffer from "Princess & the Pea" syndrome, in that I can feel such subtle differences it gets real annoying - I can feel saddle height being off by less than 3mm, tyre pressure off by a few PSI, 5mm difference is stem length is a world apart is comfort and fit
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  65. #65
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    LyNx, I am similarly afflicted. I've been a Machinist for over 20 years, .1mm or .004-.005" is a huge amount to me, I'm anal about keeping tolerances tight. I've managed a machine shop for the previous 2 years, and for the last several months I've been specifically managing our engineering department. So, when I say that things are designed on computers now days, I didn't mean it quite that literally. I have spent quite a bit of time developing product and processes, and know just how difficult that it can be. That is a fair part of the reason that I am so impressed with Banshee, they seem to have a very good handle on design and marketing, and producing products that are what the consumer wants.

  66. #66
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    Anyone actually measured the reach/stack of the XL prime or rune? On paper they are one of the longest bikes I can find. I was wondering if that's true since I'm 6'7". Almost no stock frame ever feels long enough. Also the prime is listed as a big longer and taller than the Rune. Has anyone slung a leg over both to see if it feels like that is the case?

  67. #67
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    I have the pre-production, haven't measured either of those, but could give it a try for you. Honestly though, yes, the XL is a BIG bike, one of the biggest XLs so far for me. I'm 6'2.25" with 35.25" inseam and long arms to match and I've settled on running a 65mm stem with 785mm wide bar, have a setback post, but only because I needed a longer post than the stock 350mm it came with and the only I had was the setback Thomson. FYI I have a XL Karate Monkey setup with 80mm stem and 760mm wide bar and when I measure from back-centre of saddle to outside of bar with wheel straight, cockpit is actually a smidge shorter than the Prime (I like this measurement to be anywhere between 35.5-36") on my XL Paradox which also has a 25.4" ETT I used to run a 80-90mm stem and 750mm wide bar for the same fit.

    If you're like most of the other riders around here though, you most likely would prefer a slightly more compact cockpit and a 70-80mm stem with 785mm wide bar would fit - just let a guy 6'4" try my Prime and he liked the fit with a 100mm stem, but is more easy trails/XC oriented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    Anyone actually measured the reach/stack of the XL prime or rune? On paper they are one of the longest bikes I can find. I was wondering if that's true since I'm 6'7". Almost no stock frame ever feels long enough. Also the prime is listed as a big longer and taller than the Rune. Has anyone slung a leg over both to see if it feels like that is the case?
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    Hmmm, yeah, i'm just debating whether or not the 29 wheels are worth the plunge. Rune might be more versatile. Life is so hard.

  69. #69
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    I'd say depends on your riding style and the like or not of leaving the ground on a regular basis. I'd say check with FM, he had a V1 RUNE and I think I can safely say he was a big 29er skeptic, but he gave the Prime pre-production a try and liked it and it suited his riding style, so much so he bought a production frame - FYI he rides in BC and all over the place there with loads of varying terrain and feature sets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    Hmmm, yeah, i'm just debating whether or not the 29 wheels are worth the plunge. Rune might be more versatile. Life is so hard.
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  70. #70
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    Ha, yeah I've been watching this thread.

    It's hard to see past all the wheelsize BS on the internet. I recently did a big trailride day (23 miles, 6k', all dbl-blk DH) with an awesome crew of riders who were generally more skilled than I (perhaps some will read this! ). Guys hitting 25' gaps and 12'+ drops, some on 29" AM hardtails! We also had 27.5 and 26" bikes on that ride. Pretty much confirmed my belief that it's the rider that sets the limits, not their wheelsize/equipment.

    Anyways. I love the roll-over, momentum & stability of bigger wheels, those are benefits on steep tech DH, not just cross-country. Machine-built style jumps are about the only area where I'd prefer the Rune over the prime, but that's a small part of my riding diet- I'm looking for long back-country DH, and the prime excels at that. Also totally awesome for whistler XC, squamish/pemberton, fromme type stuff. Did OK in whistler bike park too, but really I'd want the new darkside for that stuff!

    Keep in mind I'm 175cm. If you're looking at XL's, I'd pass on the 26" wheels.
    27.5" Rune if you do a lot of jumping & machine built trails in addition to trail riding.
    Prime if you do more backcountry trail riding with steep tech etc.

    That'd be my vote.

    By the way- Gemini2k05- just checked out your vids. Would this be your only bike? If so- looks like you do a lot of shuttle/park riding, so that'd be a nudge for the 27.5" rune. If you're keeping a bigger bike for that stuff, then Prime- it can still handle all that stuff but is more of an all-rounder.

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    I've got two downhill bikes basically. Problem is every time I buy an xc-ish bike I always ride it like a downhill bike and wish I had a burlier bike. I don't think this bike would see TOO much jumping, but plenty of Rocky singletrack. I ride pretty hard and at a fairly high level too. Sooo...hard to say what to get. I keep going back and forth. Might just get the rune now and prime later. The long cs on the prime is my biggest hesitation.

  72. #72
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    Seriously Dude, you're getting an XL, you won't notice any "long"stays. Honestly I've said it before and I'll say it again, for us taller guys riding XL frames the stays should be longer anyhow as we sit further rearward that shorter folks. Check the stays on your DH bikes, fairly certain they're longer or the same as the Prime. 17.3" is pretty short to me, IF you like a bike that will also climb as well as descend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    I've got two downhill bikes basically. Problem is every time I buy an xc-ish bike I always ride it like a downhill bike and wish I had a burlier bike. I don't think this bike would see TOO much jumping, but plenty of Rocky singletrack. I ride pretty hard and at a fairly high level too. Sooo...hard to say what to get. I keep going back and forth. Might just get the rune now and prime later. The long cs on the prime is my biggest hesitation.
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  73. #73
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    Yeah I also have a Kona Honzo with 16.3 stays & sliding drops, it manuals nice and corners well but it gets pinballed way too easy at high speeds. Over time I moved the drop-outs back to increase stability- currently at 16.75" & much better. I prefer the Prime though.

    One thing I notice about many of the even shorter chainstay 29'ers is they increase the reach/front center length to offset that loss of stability.

    If you already have some FR/DH bikes covered I'd get the prime. Mine feels easily as capable as my previous rune (and I had a 180mm 66 'zocchi and a angleset on my Rune). Having owned both- having both the Rune and the Prime at the same time would be totally redundant. That's why I let go of my Rune.

  74. #74
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    I think chainstays matter a lot for an XL bike. I'm still exploring this (got new custom shorter chainstays on the way for my DH bike), but I think that with an XL kinda length bike, and sufficiently slack HA, you can derive your stability from those 2 things, and can get away with a shorter rear end, which would improve low speed handling, and possibly make it a little more fun in the air. But yeah, on a trail bike...not sure how important that would be since I wouldn't be riding it quite as aggressively as a DH bike, nor would it have quite the stability anyways. I need to see what kind of pricing I can get, but I might lean towards the rune just because I have more 26" compatible parts lying around.

    And yes, the CS on my DH bikes are 17.75 right now, getting new swingarms that will make them 17.25 roughly. So we'll see how that goes. Reach on the DH bike is ~18" which gives it a WB of 49.5-50"

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    Also, does anyone make dual ply 29" tires? I can't seem to find any.

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    Not as far as I know, best bet out there right now for serious aggressive 29er tyres are the DHF EXO 60 TPI Minion DHF

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    Also, does anyone make dual ply 29" tires? I can't seem to find any.
    FYI, the WB on my XL Prime is 48.5" with a Fox F23-140mm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    And yes, the CS on my DH bikes are 17.75 right now, getting new swingarms that will make them 17.25 roughly. So we'll see how that goes. Reach on the DH bike is ~18" which gives it a WB of 49.5-50"
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  77. #77
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    Yes, there are dual-ply Minion DHFs. The link to the Maxxis product description is here. It's under "Downhill" not "Mountain" in the Maxxis bicycle lineup.

    29erchico sorted out the product numbers a few months back. Link here. Assuming that the product numbers he got are correct, the dual-ply DHFs are available at Universal Cycles (although they don't state that they are the 2-ply).

  78. #78
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    OK, that makes a lot more sense now as the just over 1,000g weights seemed very low from what people were giving for them - 1200g> was what I was seeing. Guess I just have my old link to Mtn tyres before they had a separate area for DH.
    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Yes, there are dual-ply Minion DHFs. The link to the Maxxis product description is here. It's under "Downhill" not "Mountain" in the Maxxis bicycle lineup.

    29erchico sorted out the product numbers a few months back. Link here. Assuming that the product numbers he got are correct, the dual-ply DHFs are available at Universal Cycles (although they don't state that they are the 2-ply).
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  79. #79
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    Due to the shallower approach angle and increased tread footprint of the bigger wheels, I've never felt the need for anything burlier than 850g tires on my Prime (i.e. Specialized Butcher/Purgatory 2.3s). These have performed comparably to 1100g 26" FR tires for me- fewer flats for sure.

    Gemini2k05, I'd definitely get some test rides in on some beefy 29'ers..before you decide. I can't guarantee you'll love it or hate it, but a test ride will answer your questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post

    Gemini2k05, I'd definitely get some test rides in on some beefy 29'ers..before you decide. I can't guarantee you'll love it or hate it, but a test ride will answer your questions.
    I don't think I know anyone who has one. My buddy who did, just moved away last week before I got to try one . I'll see what i can find around here.

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    Would like to resurect this and ask if any small people out their have tried the Medium Prime?

    Like the original post, Im 5'5" and am really keen on trying a 29er out.

    I have a v2 Rune in Small and it fits well, wouldnt mind a little longer TT though.

    Thanks

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    I'd say as far as standover clearance goes,I'd expect you'd be fine, had guys 5'8" try my XL PP Prime (2013) and they had no clearance issues, so with the Medium, no worries - according to the geo charts there's a 7mm difference between the SM Rune and M Prime.
    Reach wise looks like you'd get a pretty decent increase of over an inch, so depending on what stem you're running currently coupled with if you feel you need more cockpit room or not, that should help you determine if it can work. If by chance you're currently on a 70mm stem, then you're more than good, that would give you 30mm to get to about the shortest stem you can run without getting into specialty zero reach stems.
    Last edited by LyNx; 03-22-2017 at 04:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I'd say as far as standover clearance goes,I'd expect you'd be fine, had guys 5'8" try my PP Prime (2013) and they had no clearance issues, so with the Medium, no worries - according to the geo charts there's a 7mm difference between the SM Rune and M Prime.
    Reach wise looks like you'd get a pretty decent increase of over an inch, so depending on what stem you're running currently coupled with if you feel you need more cockpit room or not, that should help you determine if it can work. If by chance you're currently on a 70mm stem, then you're more than good, that would give you 30mm to get to about the shortest stem you can run without getting into specialty zero reach stems.

    Thanks much, Lynx!
    That really helps.
    Still would want to demo a Medium just to be on the safe size.

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    Forgot to include I have an XL in there, but think you figured that one out. Couldn't agree more, if you can get a test ride, that's always the best solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by ictire View Post
    Thanks much, Lynx!
    That really helps.
    Still would want to demo a Medium just to be on the safe size.
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