• 12-17-2012
    jncarpenter
    Prime/Rune Dropouts/Hangers
    I had originally ordered my Prime to come stock with the 142x12 drops, and also ordered an additional set of the 150x12 as well, for the burlier wheelset riding days. The frame arrived (errantly) with 135x10. I called the shop & had them resolve the error by sending out the proper dropouts. Finally, today, the 150's arrived (142's enroute), but clearly they do not ship with hangers and the 150mm requires a different hanger. Can anyone confirm whether the 142 & 150 share the same hanger, or will I need 3 different hangers to run the various drops?

    Many thanks in advance :)
  • 12-17-2012
    MartinS
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    I had originally ordered my Prime to come stock with the 142x12 drops, and also ordered an additional set of the 150x12 as well, for the burlier wheelset riding days. The frame arrived (errantly) with 135x10. I called the shop & had them resolve the error by sending out the proper dropouts. Finally, today, the 150's arrived (142's enroute), but clearly they do not ship with hangers and the 150mm requires a different hanger. Can anyone confirm whether the 142 & 150 share the same hanger, or will I need 3 different hangers to run the various drops?

    Many thanks in advance :)

    I'm pretty sure I'd read that the 150 and 142 will share the same hangars (also found on the Legends). I doubt the Banshee guys would make things more complicated than need be.
  • 12-17-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MartinS View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'd read that the 150 and 142 will share the same hangars (also found on the Legends). I doubt the Banshee guys would make things more complicated than need be.

    That's what I was hoping...I have an email in to Keith to confirm as well. :thumbsup:

    EDIT: For anyone interested, here was Keith's response:

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    Thanks,
    Keith"
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  • 12-18-2012
    jncarpenter
    Thankfully, the 142x12 drops arrived today, and indeed included not only the hanger, but another set of the flip chips as well :)
  • 12-19-2012
    jncarpenter
    Anyone out there running the production frame with the 142x12 drops? I have a couple questions for you...
  • 12-20-2012
    sakucee
    I do.
  • 12-20-2012
    jncarpenter
    What wheel are you running in the rear?
    Any issues with the wheel being centered in the stays?
  • 12-20-2012
    sakucee
    lbs built Stans 3.30HD on Flow EX rims, it is centered last time i eye-balled it, i can measure it today
  • 12-20-2012
    general lee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    What wheel are you running in the rear?
    Any issues with the wheel being centered in the stays?

    142x12, currently testing a soon-to-be released Spank all mtn wheelset. Straight, true, and centered.
  • 12-20-2012
    sakucee
    Normal flow nds 25.5mm, Drive side 28.3mm, hub Hope 2 PRO

    Flow EX nds 26mm, Drive side 27mm, hub Stans 3.30HD

    Measured from seat stay -> rim edge

    Nothing major, could be easily down to wheel dish/throw on rim also?
  • 12-20-2012
    jncarpenter
    Thanks guys...I think I have it sorted. The I9 axle has a wide range of adjustment at the bearing preload. I didn't realize this at first, and the wheel was way offset to the non-drive side. Now that I have it properly setup, the wheel is essentially centered. Chalk it up to user error :D
  • 12-20-2012
    jncarpenter
    OK...so maybe not there yet :( :madman:

    This morning I mocked it up without the cassette installed, nor the brake caliper, to just check the wheel alignment...all seemed good to go. Tonight, I installed the derailleur and cassette...that's where things went awry.

    Both the der. & caliper seem far to outboard with the wheel centered! I am new to the 142x12 standard, but from what I understand, it is just extending the axle 3.5mm on either side with the same flange width & spacing otherwise. I cannot get my hope brakes to not drag without a ton of spacers, and the rear der. seems it would need to be reset a full gear to avoid dropping off the bottom.

    IMHO, you should be able to swap out 135x10 wheels w/ corresponding drops for the 142x12 WITHOUT having to reset the der. cable or realign brake caliper...right? I can do this going from 135x10 to 150x12 with the current setup.

    The Banshee 142 drops do not have the relieved portion that all other 142 drops I have seen have...can this be the culprit? The 142 drops are clearly not placing the IS mounts in the same location as the 135 (same with the der. hanger location.

    I'm sure most w/ the 142 rears are setting up the der. for the first time & didn't notice a difference...but did anyone else have a hard time setting up the rear brake to avoid rotor drag without spacing the caliper inboard?
  • 12-20-2012
    sakucee
    I had to put 2 washers on my XTR is-pm adapter, that being said, i had to use 1 washer with B29 frame too, didn't think much of it, also had no problems getting 10spd XT shadow working.

    Can't compare between 135mm and 142, don't have 135 dropouts, i doubt the lack of releived portion can make any difference since the spacing is still 142 where it counts?
  • 12-20-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sakucee View Post
    Can't compare between 135mm and 142, don't have 135 dropouts, i doubt the lack of releived portion can make any difference since the spacing is still 142 where it counts?

    Not true at all, it could mean that the location of the IS mounts & the rear der. mount are each 3.5mm too far outboard (which would explain what I am experiencing). The axle is 142mm wide (7mm wider than the 135mm), but the rotor & der. placement should remain fixed. I'm hoping there is a simple solution, but I don't want to have to redo my der. every time I want to swap out wheels.

    If I am using the same exact wheel, with 2 different axle standards, and the wheel is centered between the stays/drops in each case, why would I need to change my brake/der. setup?
  • 12-20-2012
    sakucee
    Measure distance between brake side adapter and hub flange where brake disk mounts (without a disc of course) that should tell you the difference?
  • 12-20-2012
    jncarpenter
    I don't need to measure, since it is the same wheel. One sets up superb (135mm), the other requires ~3mm of spacers to even turn the rear wheel without major drag.
  • 12-20-2012
    sakucee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    I don't need to measure, since it is the same wheel. One sets up superb (135mm), the other requires ~3mm of spacers to even turn the rear wheel without major drag.

    Hmmm weird, Hope PRO2 and Stans 3.30HD have same adapter length on brake side (within few 1/10ths of a mm), i spaced my adapter out 2mm with washers and i can center XTR caliper dead middle of the track with this setup, but like i said, can't try out with 135mm since all i got is 142 hubs these days..
  • 12-20-2012
    jncarpenter
    It's not the brake caliper that is the PITA so much (easy enough to throw in a spacer or 3 ;)), but the der. adjustment required anytime I want to throw on my burly 150mm wheels. Not a deal breaker, but I wonder if an oversight was made somewhere?
  • 12-20-2012
    Marshall Willanholly
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    The Banshee 142 drops do not have the relieved portion that all other 142 drops I have seen have...can this be the culprit? The 142 drops are clearly not placing the IS mounts in the same location as the 135 (same with the der. hanger location.

    I thought the relieved portion was one of the main reasons for the 142x12 standard, enabling easier wheel installation. Otherwise, it's no better than 135x12. Tech Speak: 142×12, What’s the Big Idea? - Bike Rumor

    From the article linked above:
    Quote:

    Pros of 142 x 12:
    •Larger captured axle means stiffer, stronger rear end and less deflection of rear hub
    •Easier wheel installation than 135×12 or 135×10 QR
    •Due to its design, the thru axle satisfies CSPC wheel retention requirements in an extremely simple and repeatable manner
    •Design guarantees the same wheel alignment each time the wheel is removed and installed
    •Retains the same chainline as 135 QR wheels, which means no bearing on Q-Factor (going to a wider hub, say 150, would require the use of a wider BB, therefore increasing Q-factor)
  • 12-20-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marshall Willanholly View Post
    I thought the relieved portion was one of the main reasons for the 142x12 standard, enabling easier wheel installation. Tech Speak: 142×12, What’s the Big Idea? - Bike Rumor

    From the article linked above:

    Exactly! Well...there is the larger axle as well, but I was surprised to find they didn't have the relieved channels for ease of installation/better capture (their iteration is no less a pain than the current 150x12 to install).
  • 12-21-2012
    jncarpenter
    Maybe a picture can save me a thousand words :)

    You can see below, the length of axle extending past the end of the cassette carrier on both 142mm (left) and the 135/150mm wheels (with calipers I measured ~10mm for the 142 & ~6.3 on the other two). Since the hanger is essentially flush with the inside of all drops (all are similar thickness), obviously a significant der. adjustment will be required to swap wheels.

    If the 142mm drop was 3.5mm thicker inboard, and relieved 3.5mm for the axle (moving the hanger that much inboard as well), the der. would end up in essentially the same location for all wheels.

    Assume the same for the non-drive side.

  • 12-22-2012
    Brougham
    "The hangers used on the 150x12 and 142x12 dropouts are the same for all our bike models to keep things nice and easy"
    To whom? - having to space out the IS-PM adaptor is annoying and shouldnt really be neccesary... on any modern frame and why even offer 142mm dropouts if its not the full package with a recessed channel?
  • 12-22-2012
    LyNx
    Hum, I'd have to concur with Marshall on this one, absolutely. The only reason to do the new 142 standard is exactly for this as otherwise there's always 135x12. I can very easily see the hanger and caliper fixing points being off, if by chance the step to do the slots got forgotten somehow as they're about the depth of the spacing between 2 cogs - not quite sure how that's really possible since everything would then have to account for that extra.

    Sadly the only company who's done anything useful with the 142 standard is SpecialED - they actually widened their hub flanges, which to me is what should have been done if it was a proper standard, but that's something a lot of people wouldn't do to gain so little over 135, so they made it something that could work with existing hubs that use end caps.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marshall Willanholly View Post
    I thought the relieved portion was one of the main reasons for the 142x12 standard, enabling easier wheel installation. Otherwise, it's no better than 135x12. Tech Speak: 142×12, What’s the Big Idea? - Bike Rumor

    From the article linked above:

  • 12-22-2012
    skidad
    Hmmm. this is a bit disturbing news about the 142 drops with no relief. Without seeing them would the meat not be enough if the cutout was there or not enough material to attach the hanger. Just tossing out random thoughts as to why. IMO you shouldn't have to go messing around with caliper and RD adjustments other than very slightly with different dropouts. Need an answer from Banshee on this one.
  • 12-22-2012
    skidad
    Quote:

    Sadly the only company who's done anything useful with the 142 standard is SpecialED - they actually widened their hub flanges, which to me is what should have been done if it was a proper standard, but that's something a lot of people wouldn't do to gain so little over 135, so they made it something that could work with existing hubs that use end caps.
    To bad their 142+ hubs are prone to self destructing. Many threads about that problem.
  • 12-22-2012
    MartinS
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    To bad their 142+ hubs are prone to self destructing. Many threads about that problem.

    +1 on that, their hubs are garbage.
    Plus the spacing between the dropouts should be the same as 142's, the extra 7mm's comes in in the recessed area so the width of the flanges should be the same regardless. Some manufacturers flanges are just wider than others...

    Strange that Banshee didn't recess the 142's though, doesn't make sense to me.
  • 12-22-2012
    FM
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    Maybe a picture can save me a thousand words :)


    JNC, love to see a picture of the drop-outs... definitely fishy if they aren't recessed...:confused:
  • 12-22-2012
    builttoride
    I made the descisoon not to recess the dropouts for a few reasons.

    #1 It would have meant increasing the mold size for the forging, which would have meant increasing the price of the dropouts to the customer by a minimum of $20 (likely a bit more once import tax, dealer and distributor margins etc are added on).

    #2 I actually find the wheel is easier to put in place without the recess as you can slide it in forward of the derailleur (making most of large tire clearance) and then pull back into location.... the brake caliper will help you keep it vertically aligned anyway.

    #3 I've never had any issue mounting a wheel on my DH bike, or proto KS bikes that made me ever feel the need for an extra 'cup' of material to justify the extra weight and cost.

    If it turns out that our customers decide that this is something they really want, then I'll listen and change the mold and pricing, but I suspect most will see beyond the marketing and realize that putting the wheel in place is easy without the recess.
  • 12-22-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    I made the descisoon not to recess the dropouts for a few reasons.

    #1 It would have meant increasing the mold size for the forging, which would have meant increasing the price of the dropouts to the customer by a minimum of $20 (likely a bit more once import tax, dealer and distributor margins etc are added on).

    #2 I actually find the wheel is easier to put in place without the recess as you can slide it in forward of the derailleur (making most of large tire clearance) and then pull back into location.... the brake caliper will help you keep it vertically aligned anyway.

    #3 I've never had any issue mounting a wheel on my DH bike, or proto KS bikes that made me ever feel the need for an extra 'cup' of material to justify the extra weight and cost.

    If it turns out that our customers decide that this is something they really want, then I'll listen and change the mold and pricing, but I suspect most will see beyond the marketing and realize that putting the wheel in place is easy without the recess.

    The ease of installation is really not a huge deal for me, tho it would be a benefit. However, the fact that these drops essentially move the hanger & IS mounts 3.5mm outboard is a big deal to me. The only reason I bought the drops was to give me the option of running a lighter "trail" set of wheels, as well as a burlier set of wheels setup with the 150 hub/drops. At this point I think I would prefer to run the lighter wheelset with the 135mm drops, since it easily allows me to swap wheels without having to re-tune the der. as well as mess with the caliper alignment.

    I am sure folks can successfully get a der. to shift fine if they stick with one rear wheel, as well as space the caliper inboard with shims, but I might swap wheels a couple times a week and it's just not worth the hassle imho.


    FM...here is a pic of the drops, sans hanger. This is the inside of each.

  • 12-23-2012
    Brougham
    Wheel installation is not an issue here either but having to shim the caliper adaptor by 3.5mm really is a huge turn off. Banshee´s answer makes sense though the caliper mounting issue isnt explained, judging form the dropout structure i dont see why not atleast the IS adaptor tab surface could be +3.5mm offest/inboard. Banshee?
  • 12-23-2012
    G_g
    Can't we machine the 135mm dropouts 3,5mm to make the channels and keep using the 142mm hub?

    Maybe create not a groove, but an area that allows the wheel to come from either downward or forward.

    Like, remove 3,5mm form the orange area:

  • 12-23-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by G_g View Post
    Can't we machine the 135mm dropouts 3,5mm to make the channels and keep using the 142mm hub?

    Maybe create not a groove, but an area that allows the wheel to come from either downward or forward.

    Like, remove 3,5mm form the orange area:


    No, the spacing between drops is already 142mm...you would need a longer axle to do what you're suggesting.
  • 12-23-2012
    G_g
    I meant to machine the 135mm dropouts, but now I have seen they are 135x10...

    I thought that 142 was supposed to be just like 135mm in terms of disc calliper and rear dérailleur, and those 3,5mm grooves to easy with wheel install...

    Kinda wishing I had ordered another size of dropouts, I find the grooves to help with wheel install (having an old marzo 66 and a fox 36, the grooves in the fox 36 really help... In the Marzo you need to either have a 2nd person helping you, have it on a stand, or flip the bike upside down). One cannot lift the frame, hold the wheel and insert the axle at the same time. The grooves should enable the wheel to rest in the correct position
  • 12-23-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by G_g View Post
    I thought that 142 was supposed to be just like 135mm in terms of disc calliper and rear dérailleur, and those 3,5mm grooves to easy with wheel install...

    Yes, exactly right :thumbsup:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by G_g View Post
    Kinda wishing I had ordered another size of dropouts, I find the grooves to help with wheel install (having an old marzo 66 and a fox 36, the grooves in the fox 36 really help... In the Marzo you need to either have a 2nd person helping you, have it on a stand, or flip the bike upside down). One cannot lift the frame, hold the wheel and insert the axle at the same time. The grooves should enable the wheel to rest in the correct position

    I agree, the one benefit of the QR15 standard for forks is the ease of install compared to 20mm. It seems Banshee designed a set of dropouts that accomodate a 142mm axle, however it should not be associated with the current industry standard for 142x12 since the der./caliper mounts are in different locations.

    I have no doubt folks can setup their bikes to make it work, but as I stated previously, disappointing for anyone wanting to run more than one type of rear wheel axle.
  • 12-23-2012
    belljeffw
    Hmm, I have the standard 135mmX10mm dropouts for the 26" wheels, but ordered the 142mmX12mm dropouts for the 650b wheels. If I have to screw with caliper spacers and cable adjustments every time I switch, I'll never bother switching. Actually, spacing the calipers is no big deal, since I could just glue a shim to the dropout, but cable adjustments leave kinks that affect performance and cable life. I wonder if it's possible to shim the hanger...
  • 12-23-2012
    G_g
    I guess you can do it, maybe not with round shims, they might need some cutting, and even then, there is a tab on the derailleur, that usually hits the hanger, The shims need the derailleur to hit the tab.

    I would gladly pay 20$ more for 142 dropouts that really mimic the 135 in terms of caliper and derailleur spacing, and make not a groove, but a recessed area in the shape from my pic (or something similar that allows the wheel to come from below and front, and we slide it up and back and it notches in place). Just an idea, but I'd really like to see that
  • 12-23-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by belljeffw View Post
    I wonder if it's possible to shim the hanger...

    Not inboard, also the axle sits flush against the hanger...soo it wouldn't be possible without a hanger redesign.
  • 12-23-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by G_g View Post
    I would gladly pay 20$ more for 142 dropouts that really mimic the 135 in terms of caliper and derailleur spacing...

    ...as would I. :thumbsup:
  • 12-23-2012
    FM
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    ...as would I. :thumbsup:

    X3... or whatever.:)
  • 12-23-2012
    belljeffw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by g_g View Post
    i would gladly pay 20$ more for 142 dropouts that really mimic the 135 in terms of caliper and derailleur spacing...

    x4...
  • 12-23-2012
    jncarpenter
    I am considering a 650b Spitty for the Missus to replace her Sultan...anyone know what axle formats the 650b drops are available in?
  • 12-23-2012
    belljeffw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    Not inboard, also the axle sits flush against the hanger...soo it wouldn't be possible without a hanger redesign.

    Oh yea, good point. In theory I could make a hanger, but that would be pushing my meager machining skills to the limit.
  • 12-23-2012
    belljeffw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    I am considering a 650b Spitty for the Missus to replace her Sultan...anyone know what axle formats the 650b drops are available in?

    So far, ONLY 142X12, at least for the Rune.
  • 12-23-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by belljeffw View Post
    So far, ONLY 142X12, at least for the Rune.

    That's what I was afraid of... :rolleyes:
  • 12-23-2012
    belljeffw
    I may make my own 135X10 for the 650b. They look pretty easy to make, even on my little mill. I wonder if Keith would part with the CAD drawings...
  • 12-23-2012
    Marshall Willanholly
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by G_g View Post
    I would gladly pay 20$ more for 142 dropouts that really mimic the 135 in terms of caliper and derailleur spacing.


    Me too.
  • 12-23-2012
    Optimus
    I know that you guys are concerned more with the 142mm drop outs, but I just installed my 150's Friday with no problems. Slight barrel adjust up on my shifter, loosen and re-center of my caliper. 150mm e*thirteen LG1+ made a heck of a difference over a 135mm DT Swiss 240s.
  • 12-23-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    I know that you guys are concerned more with the 142mm drop outs, but I just installed my 150's Friday with no problems. Slight barrel adjust up on my shifter, loosen and re-center of my caliper. 150mm e*thirteen LG1+ made a heck of a difference over a 135mm DT Swiss 240s.

    Coming from 135 or 142? I have no necessary adjustments going from 135 to 150...or back.

    Agreed, the 150mm rear is a big upgrade in stiffness! :thumbsup:
  • 12-23-2012
    Colin+M
    Where did you guys get your 150mm drops?

    Also is the Prime "yellow" the same as the new Rune? If so, I might have to go all crazy with a yellow one ;)
  • 12-23-2012
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Colin+M View Post
    Where did you guys get your 150mm drops?

    I got mine from CHAD. :thumbsup:
  • 12-23-2012
    Optimus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    Coming from 135 or 142? I have no necessary adjustments going from 135 to 150...or back.

    Agreed, the 150mm rear is a big upgrade in stiffness! :thumbsup:

    From 135, it was a pretty easy change over. I've got a DBair on the way, don't much care for the CTD. Otherwise, I'm tearing it up out there. The Prime gobbles up everything.
  • 12-26-2012
    pete weber
    Easiest solution would be to buy a light 150 mm rear hub and have both your wheelsets at 150. At CRC Hopes are less then $200 , WTB $145 and I just bought a DT Swiss 350 for $114. All are around 300 grams and as Im sure you know it is impossible to build as strong as wheel with any 135mm hub
  • 12-26-2012
    G_g
    Do the 150 have the grooves to aid with wheel install? Since I have to remove the wheels to fit in the car, that would be helpful.
    I am just thinking about gluing some kind of half-a-shim to create the wheel channel to help with wheel install, probably only on the left dropout. (since I only use one wheel, I am not troubled by the derailleur and brake alignment problem). From the looks of it, the half-a-shim on drive side would be attached to the hanger... Guess trying only on non-drive side first to see how that works

    I just want the ease to install wheels that the groove provides. Every time I had to install a wheel on a 150 bike it was a pita... Hold the wheel exactly in spot with one hand, while lifting the bike with the other and insert axle with leg... That or flip the bike upside down... In the stand it is easy, but in the middle of trail in pissing rain it isnt that fun or easy, and flipping the bike upside down just to get a muddy saddle isn't my cup of tea.
  • 12-26-2012
    uzurpator
    There is a 157mm standard that is to 150mm what 142mm is to 135 :) 150mm cannot have grooves - that would cause issues on the drive-side.
  • 12-30-2012
    aaiinsd
    How can I get some custom turner decals?
  • 02-09-2013
    Brisco Dog
    Any word if Banshee is going to re-design the dropouts? It would be a shame for them to carry the ball all the way to the 1 yard line only to fumble the ball with something as simple as dropouts. Anybody know if a company like North Shore Billet could make some custom ones? My Prime should be here today :)
  • 02-09-2013
    G_g
    I have my frame at home, and I'll only be home by March, so I'd also like to see some revised 142mm dropouts. They shouldn't be that different from the 135mm version, just had the grooves for wheel install and change to 12mm instead of 10mm and that's it, right?

    Custom seem like they end up expensive. Also, I like the syntace derailleur hanger concept with breakaway bolt instead of the hanger itself.

    Anyway, I guess I can live with shimming the brake adapter. The lack of the guide to aid wheel install, I'll try to epoxy my own metal part, creating slots on the inside of the dropout, therefore making the wheel guidance. If I do that, I might as well epoxy the shims in place for the brake mount. About the derailleur, guess I cant do much about that one
  • 02-09-2013
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brisco Dog View Post
    Any word if Banshee is going to re-design the dropouts? It would be a shame for them to carry the ball all the way to the 1 yard line only to fumble the ball with something as simple as dropouts. Anybody know if a company like North Shore Billet could make some custom ones? My Prime should be here today :)

    This subject is getting some heat and this was a quote from a page back. Guess it's possible and probably should be since there seems to be 2 issues involved. Spacing and the reliefs.

    "If it turns out that our customers decide that this is something they really want, then I'll listen and change the mold and pricing, but I suspect most will see beyond the marketing and realize that putting the wheel in place is easy without the recess"
  • 02-09-2013
    qbert2000
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    This subject is getting some heat and this was a quote from a page back. Guess it's possible and probably should be since there seems to be 2 issues involved. Spacing and the reliefs.

    "If it turns out that our customers decide that this is something they really want, then I'll listen and change the mold and pricing, but I suspect most will see beyond the marketing and realize that putting the wheel in place is easy without the recess"

    i had a nicolai bmxtb with 12mmx135m and it was a pia to line the wheel up. the recess is what makes 142mm atractive as a thru axle. slip it in the slots, then put the axle in. done
  • 02-09-2013
    NoStyle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    i had a nicolai bmxtb with 12mmx135m and it was a pia to line the wheel up. the recess is what makes 142mm atractive as a thru axle. slip it in the slots, then put the axle in. done

    I honestly have to say that I see it the same way:
    The main Concept of the Syntace X-12 is easier Wheel-Installment for 12 mm Bolt-Thru, based on 135 x 12 Bolt-Thru. I don´t know if this, or the Benefit of being stiffer and different Hanger-Concept is more Marketing Blabla than real-life-proved?!? If this is all Marketing, then why going a.) 142 mm Width without Reliefs and b.) without resetting the 3,5 mm Offset per Side? This is like going 142 Width just for the sake of it.
    In this Case I would rather prefer Dropouts with the trusty 135 x 12 Maxle/Bolt-Thru and be fine without the necessity to shimm and live with the already known Wheel-Installment.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brisco Dog View Post
    Any word if Banshee is going to re-design the dropouts? It would be a shame for them to carry the ball all the way to the 1 yard line only to fumble the ball with something as simple as dropouts ...

    I do think the same. The new KS-Link Bikes are awesome to ride and ahead of Competitors in many Aspects - please don´t miss the Goal of 100% Perfection. It is more costy, ok, but I think the majority is willing to pay an Upcharge. I would. Especially if a Trade-In at Cost could be done for those who already have them.
    As far as I have read the 135 x 10 and 150 x 12 work as they should. At least it would affect only the 26/650B-142 x 12 Dropouts, right?
  • 02-10-2013
    ironxcross
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by G_g View Post
    Do the 150 have the grooves to aid with wheel install? Since I have to remove the wheels to fit in the car, that would be helpful.
    I am just thinking about gluing some kind of half-a-shim to create the wheel channel to help with wheel install, probably only on the left dropout. (since I only use one wheel, I am not troubled by the derailleur and brake alignment problem). From the looks of it, the half-a-shim on drive side would be attached to the hanger... Guess trying only on non-drive side first to see how that works

    I just want the ease to install wheels that the groove provides. Every time I had to install a wheel on a 150 bike it was a pita... Hold the wheel exactly in spot with one hand, while lifting the bike with the other and insert axle with leg... That or flip the bike upside down... In the stand it is easy, but in the middle of trail in pissing rain it isnt that fun or easy, and flipping the bike upside down just to get a muddy saddle isn't my cup of tea.

    Just a quick note on this, in my experience it's a whole lot easier to wipe your seat off when it's time to ride than to fumble around with your bike upright changing a flat... And if it's that muddy isn't your seat already fairly muddy from riding anyway??
  • 02-18-2013
    Resnick
    Hey Builttoride

    First of I want to say I LOVE this bike. you did a fantastic job, I did my first 25 km day on Seymour and Fromme on the weekend. Usually I'd stop by the 10 km mark because I didn't want to drag my bike up the climbs anymore.

    The drop outs work fine for me the wheel sits perfectly centered as it does on other 142 mm bikes. but I do like the "channels". My solution was to contact a North Shore Billets about making a modified version. I'm not sure about the cost of this in my be way to much but I thought it was worth at least asking.

    If you don't mind me asking do you see any problems having a cnc'd version rather than forged? If NSB or any other CNC company were interested would you/Banshee be ok with it or even help them with your 3d models of the drop outs?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    I made the descisoon not to recess the dropouts for a few reasons.

    #1 It would have meant increasing the mold size for the forging, which would have meant increasing the price of the dropouts to the customer by a minimum of $20 (likely a bit more once import tax, dealer and distributor margins etc are added on).

    #2 I actually find the wheel is easier to put in place without the recess as you can slide it in forward of the derailleur (making most of large tire clearance) and then pull back into location.... the brake caliper will help you keep it vertically aligned anyway.

    #3 I've never had any issue mounting a wheel on my DH bike, or proto KS bikes that made me ever feel the need for an extra 'cup' of material to justify the extra weight and cost.

    If it turns out that our customers decide that this is something they really want, then I'll listen and change the mold and pricing, but I suspect most will see beyond the marketing and realize that putting the wheel in place is easy without the recess.

  • 02-19-2013
    builttoride
    If CNCing your own dropouts (expect a pricey quote) then they would have to beef the dropouts up slightly as machined alloy is not as strong as forged, or go with a stronger alloy like 6066 or 7005 (both heat treated to T6). They should be easily able to machine based on the dropouts you give them (they aren't super comlicated parts) but they can contact me if they want any clarification.

    Personally if all you are looking for is the recess to potentially help make mounting the wheel a little easier, then I would just make some crescent shapes and bond them to your existing dropouts. This would be far cheaper and performa the same job, as they are not load bearing parts.
  • 02-19-2013
    G_g
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    Personally if all you are looking for is the recess to potentially help make mounting the wheel a little easier, then I would just make some crescent shapes and bond them to your existing dropouts. This would be far cheaper and performa the same job, as they are not load bearing parts.

    Expect some updates at the beginning of March related to bonding the recess on the dropouts by my part. Can't wait to get back home and have a look at the frame and build my prime.
  • 02-19-2013
    Dogboy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    Personally if all you are looking for is the recess to potentially help make mounting the wheel a little easier, then I would just make some crescent shapes and bond them to your existing dropouts. This would be far cheaper and performa the same job, as they are not load bearing parts.

    Seriously, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but that is not the point. That will not fix the fact that the brake mount and derailleur hanger do not locate those parts correctly on the bike. The recessed pockets in the dropouts are there to capture the additional 3.5mm on each side of a 142mm hub and the inside face of the brake mount and derailleur hanger should be located on the plane where the 135mm hub caps would end.
  • 02-19-2013
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dogboy View Post
    Seriously, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but that is not the point. That will not fix the fact that the brake mount and derailleur hanger do not locate those parts correctly on the bike. The recessed pockets in the dropouts are there to capture the additional 3.5mm on each side of a 142mm hub and the inside face of the brake mount and derailleur hanger should be located on the plane where the 135mm hub caps would end.

    X2...get it OEM correct please. It may work with shimming/fiddling but given the choice I'm sure buyers would choose the 142 standard with reliefs. If it requires a new hanger so be it.
  • 02-19-2013
    NoStyle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dogboy View Post
    Seriously, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but that is not the point. That will not fix the fact that the brake mount and derailleur hanger do not locate those parts correctly on the bike. The recessed pockets in the dropouts are there to capture the additional 3.5mm on each side of a 142mm hub and the inside face of the brake mount and derailleur hanger should be located on the plane where the 135mm hub caps would end.

    Again: I´m not nit-picking at all - I got my Brakes and Derailleur to work fine and I´m ok with the usual fiddly Wheel-Installment - but this sounds quite right for me!!!

    Going 142 Axle Width without the reliefs for easier Wheel-Installment is ok - could be seen as an non-mainstream-attitude. But the necessity to space inwards 3,5 mm is something I don´t really get, plus non-loyal-Banshee-Customers don´t get, plus Home-Wrenchers don´t get, plus LBS-Mechanics don´t get. This alone makes X-12/142 mm Axle Width senseless in my Opinion. 2 of 3 Points the X-12 Standard offers are simply not done. Would be easier with the 135x12 Bolt-Thru/Maxle and non-spacing.

    I think Riders who decided for 142x12 want the Benefits of this Standard, plus they have no choice of going 135x12. Downhillers would go with 150x12 and take their existing Wheelsets, others take the good old 135x10. Only the last two are well served ...
  • 02-19-2013
    general lee
    You guys are funny. Banshee should redesign the dropouts, offer at-cost replacement, etc because the 'majority' of riders (I count 3, maybe 4) want them? Or don't want to get their saddle muddy, for real? Personally I can't understand the issue with wanting to constantly change out dropouts in the first place. Makes way more sense to choose your preferred configuration be it 12x42, 10x135, 12x150 and build your wheels up around that choice. Way easier than removing two dropouts, a derailleur, and a caliper then bolting all 4 back on again rather than just swapping the wheels. You're already going through that unnecessary hassle and complaining about possibly needing a 2mm shim next to certain brake calipers? Pul-eeze.

    I imagine the vast majority of Rune/Spitfire riders (not the half dozen who nit-pick on here) will probably choose one set of dropouts based on what they prefer and call it a day.

    And chalk me up as someone who is glad the sleeves are missing, wheel installation is easier without them anyway (not that wheel installation should ever be considered hard in the first place).
  • 02-19-2013
    Dogboy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by general lee View Post
    You guys are funny. Banshee should redesign the dropouts, offer at-cost replacement, etc because the 'majority' of riders (I count 3, maybe 4) want them? Or don't want to get their saddle muddy, for real? Personally I can't understand the issue with wanting to constantly change out dropouts in the first place. Makes way more sense to choose your preferred configuration be it 12x42, 10x135, 12x150 and build your wheels up around that choice. Way easier than removing two dropouts, a derailleur, and a caliper then bolting all 4 back on again rather than just swapping the wheels. You're already going through that unnecessary hassle and complaining about possibly needing a 2mm shim next to certain brake calipers? Pul-eeze.

    I imagine the vast majority of Rune/Spitfire riders (not the half dozen who nit-pick on here) will probably choose one set of dropouts based on what they prefer and call it a day.

    And chalk me up as someone who is glad the sleeves are missing, wheel installation is easier without them anyway (not that wheel installation should ever be considered hard in the first place).

    With all due respect Lee, you're being obtuse. The fact is that the 142x12 dropouts were not built to spec. An apt analogy would be advertising that the frame uses a 30.9 seatpost and the ID of the seatube being 32mm. Sure it will take a 30.9 seatpost, but you'll have to shim it to work. And I'm not personally invested in a frame at this point, I just think the new frames look awesome and it's a shame about the 142x12 dropouts.
  • 02-19-2013
    NoStyle
    I don´t know if there is a majority complaining and wanting them redesigned, or if it´s a minority. At least I don´t care, because I´m ok how they are, but would not mind if they where correct to the X-12 Standard.
    Truth is: I have bought 142x12 for both 26/650B, build my two Wheelsets around this Standard for my new Spitfire and I´m NOT going to spend more money on proper working 150x12 or 135x10 Dropouts or new Hubs or new Hub-Spacers. Well yes, changing Dropouts frequently is something that I´m aware of and Part of my Riding, because I´m going to switch between Wheelsets plus Wheelsizes. ;)

    The good thing: Spacing and Derailleur-Adjustments simply keeps the same. :D

    If Banshee is going to redesign them: fine. If there´s going to be a Trade-in at Cost: fine - i´ll take it. If they keep them as they are: fine - I´m out for a Ride ...

    "Banshee should redesign the dropouts, offer at-cost replacement, etc ..."
    My Point of view: Banshee should have designed them correctly from the start, sell them to the Cost that is required for Production and all this would be a Non-Topic! Even if they would be more expensive, Banshee would be still on the pretty good Side of Money/Value-Ratio. :thumbsup:

    Ps: Always referring to my Post #60.
  • 02-19-2013
    MalcolmX
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dogboy View Post
    With all due respect Lee, you're being obtuse. The fact is that the 142x12 dropouts were not built to spec. An apt analogy would be advertising that the frame uses a 30.9 seatpost and the ID of the seatube being 32mm. Sure it will take a 30.9 seatpost, but you'll have to shim it to work. And I'm not personally invested in a frame at this point, I just think the new frames look awesome and it's a shame about the 142x12 dropouts.

    mine is 30.9mm (looser fit tho) but the post that comes with the frame is only 30.8mm (but labeled 30.9mm)

    I already pointed that out 4 years ago, and they still did not get it right... which is a pitty... but the seattube works great with 30,9mm kindshock post (wobblefree, but it will slide inside the seattube rapidly on its own weight if not clamped - sure sign that the seatpost ID is a bit on the big side...
  • 02-20-2013
    belljeffw
    I must be missing something. I had 10X135 dropouts for 26” wheels and switched to 12X142 for 650b wheels when they were available. I just bolted them up and made minor brake and derailleur adjustments. I didn’t need a shim for the brake, and was able to set the derailleur with the adjuster on the shifter. Neither seemed anywhere near 3.5mm off. Is that just for the 12X150?
  • 02-20-2013
    NoStyle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by belljeffw View Post
    I must be missing something. I had 10X135 dropouts for 26” wheels and switched to 12X142 for 650b wheels when they were available. I just bolted them up and made minor brake and derailleur adjustments. I didn’t need a shim for the brake, and was able to set the derailleur with the adjuster on the shifter. Neither seemed anywhere near 3.5mm off. Is that just for the 12X150?

    Not that all this is a "big Problem", but if the 142x12 Dropouts were up to the Standard then you should have to do nothing but swap the Dropouts, without these "minor" Adjustments.

    These Adjustments, and the missing recesses, don´t really bother me much, because I consequently go with X-12 for both Wheelsizes. In Fact my Mechanic shimmed about 1 mm and the Brakes were screwed non-centric on the Adapter and now do their Work. Same for the Derailleur.

    There are others that had to shimm 1, 2 or 3 mm, not knowing this to be necessary at all. Me too. Again others with older Derailleurs have to buy new ones because the Swing-Range doesn´t fit to the more 3,5 mm inward Adjustment. Some likes to have the Recesses (Part of X-12 Standard), others don´t miss them.

    If you find this Adjustments "minor", that´s really ok. Others, frequently switching Wheelsets, might feel bugged, because this Adjustments possibly have do be done every Time.

    Truth is: These Dropouts are like the common 135x12, with just 7 mm more complete flush Width which has to be re-adjust on Brakes and Derailleurs. This "Problem" does not appear for the 150x12 and 135x10.
  • 02-20-2013
    belljeffw
    I get it, thanks. I guess I don't change wheels often enough for it to bug me.
  • 02-20-2013
    G_g
    I get that those who change dropouts every now and then have the alignment as a problem. For me, it is really the hassle to put the wheel on every ride. It reminds my of the older Marzocchi with 20mm axle. I remember resting the wheel vertically, locked by my knees, using one hand on the handlebar to try and align everything and the other to insert the axle. Nowadays, with the grooves, it is so much easier, as one doesn't need to align everything and insert the axle at the same time, the system is self centering, and rest on the appropriate spot.

    On another note, just realised the new Rocky Mountain are using bushings. As one of those that supported Banshee when they were using bushings (and still love my v1 rune with angleset), I'm curious to see how will those Rocky last
  • 02-20-2013
    Spooky221
    Must say in the 17-18years I've been riding bikes, I've never removed or fitted a wheel without flipping it onto the bars/saddle... The 142mm drop out thing is irritating only because of the alignment issues (IMO). I've used so many DH bikes with bolt through rears and none of them had grooves to aid wheel fitment and it was never an issue.
  • 02-20-2013
    G_g
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Spooky221 View Post
    Must say in the 17-18years I've been riding bikes, I've never removed or fitted a wheel without flipping it onto the bars/saddle... The 142mm drop out thing is irritating only because of the alignment issues (IMO). I've used so many DH bikes with bolt through rears and none of them had grooves to aid wheel fitment and it was never an issue.

    I change normal QR wheel without flipping the bike upside down. About the DH bikes, it might have not been an issue for you, but they released the 157mm width to be the cousin to 142mm, making wheel install easier on the DH bikes.

    For me, who has the need to remove the wheels before and after each ride, the ease of wheel install is a problem, for others, it is not.

    Heck, had I known about this I would've ordered the 135x10 dropouts instead. For others, who probably don't need to do this, and want to change wheelsizes/whatever, the alignment for rotor and derailleur are the bigger concerns.

    The groove for wheel install and spacing the disk side are an easy fix (at least the disc side groove, I'll check about the deraileur hanger side when I get home to see if it might be changed so one can get the groove to aid the wheel install).

    Maybe just changing the derailleur hanger and the left dropout solves all problems, meaning there would be no need to change the forged right dropout.
    Heck, I guess with one groove, the wheel should be guided enough, so even only a improved derailleur hanger might be the ticket. It still doesn't solve the rotor alignment, but that is solved with shims. Even those who are changing dropouts and whatnot, can glue the necessary shims to the dropout itself (I know it is not ideal, but it should be much cheaper than making a new forging. It seems the slots in the brake callipers are allowing some to use less than the 3,5mm of shims. Anyway, it seems the requirement to be able to change from any dropout sizes, would require the shimming by 3,5mm to avoid touching the calliper alignment afterwards.

    So, to round it up, a improved derailleur hanger and some factory shimmed left dropout might be the cheapest way to make everyone happy. (A trade 1 for 1 in the left dropouts would be top notch, like, Banshee sending the distributors a few of the shimmed ones, we give our regular ones back, so that they can be fixed and used afterwards.
    The main thing about my DIY shim gluing would be a screwed up alignment, not having the shimmed faced with the rotor, meaning I'd end up with the rotor scrubbing the pads. I guess most shops would have the tools to do that, so epoxy-ing a 4mm shim, and then facing it so that the total width of epoxy and aluminium shim are 3,5mm, would make it work like it should).

    Just my thoughts, if you disagree, please explain why.
  • 02-20-2013
    skidad
    Re do them and do it correctly is the right thing to do IMO. Maybe Keith should take a poll. If you have the choice as a customer what are you gonna choose if you had the choice between current drops or a revised set? I'd put my money on the revised set. Sh*it like this just bugs me and I don't even have a frame yet (and wont till I can sell some bikes) and I also have a Hadley hubs that will work all 3 ways. Bikes are so new, get it done now and done right so this BS doesn't keep getting dragged out.
  • 02-20-2013
    builttoride
    I sent in drawings a few months ago to modify forgings for 2014. I've taken on board all your opinions.
  • 02-20-2013
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    I sent in drawings a few months ago to modify forgings for 2014. I've taken on board all your opinions.

    :D:thumbsup: Thank You!! A few months ago....you must have anticipated this was gonna be a controversial subject? Will a completely new hanger be needed or an existing one?
  • 02-20-2013
    builttoride
    There will be a new hanger for those that need it.
  • 02-20-2013
    LyNx
    This thread was started over 2 months ago and Banshee listen to what their customers have to say. I'm guessing with all the responses in the first few days Keith saw the trend and dealt with it.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    :D:thumbsup: Thank You!! A few months ago....you must have anticipated this was gonna be a controversial subject? Will a completely new hanger be needed or an existing one?

  • 02-20-2013
    NoStyle
    Dear Keith, thank you for listening to both Sides of the Coin - I think we all of the Banshee-Rider-Family appreciate this a lot!
    Plus it makes all the new KS-Link Bikes Perfect in every Aspect and beyond any Doubt. :thumbsup:

    But hey - inner Brake/Derailleur Spacing 135 mm? Relief it or not? :D

    Many Greetings
    NoStyle
  • 02-20-2013
    jncarpenter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    I sent in drawings a few months ago to modify forgings for 2014. I've taken on board all your opinions.

    Great news! Thank you for you're proactive response!

    PS. I love my Prime...regardless :)
  • 03-18-2013
    el_guillyt
    3 Attachment(s)
    Re: Prime/Rune Dropouts/Hangers
    Hi everyone, I found in my drop outs kit for x12 two washers of 3.5mm each so here is the solution for the brake adapter, here some pics
  • 03-18-2013
    NoStyle
    These Washers must be new added to the Dropout-Kits. Those who received the first Batches of Frames and Dropouts (142x12) didn´t have them included. But anyway - my Shimming works for both 26 and 650B, but going to buy the new ones when they´re available. Hopefully there is a kind of Trade-in at Cost/Upcharge for the old ones to get the new reviesed ones ...
  • 03-18-2013
    pinkey
    In my package there where none included.
    Wondering if we need new (longer) screws for the brake adapter aswell or are the old ones ok and can resists die brake force?
  • 03-28-2013
    grazertourer
    Nice, Keith! :) It's awesome to see how close you are to your customers!

    I'd love to see such news on the banshee blog! It's always been great to follow your thoughts and ideas there. :thumbsup:
  • 03-28-2013
    MalcolmX
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pinkey View Post
    In my package there where none included.
    Wondering if we need new (longer) screws for the brake adapter aswell or are the old ones ok and can resists die brake force?

    The ones we installed are plenty long enough ;)
  • 03-28-2013
    djball
    Slotted dropouts 142X12 is a minute detail, but man it saves a lot of headache. It just does. Nice to see they are in the makings.
  • 03-28-2013
    sakucee
    Is non issue with SRAM Type-2's tho.
  • 05-28-2013
    eightyfive
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    I sent in drawings a few months ago to modify forgings for 2014. I've taken on board all your opinions.

    Any idea when the new dropout will be available?
  • 06-02-2013
    lucky99
    dear keith,

    is it normal to have a slight play between the axle and the drop out hole on the non drive side? mine is a 150x12 drop out.
  • 06-06-2013
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eightyfive View Post
    Any idea when the new dropout will be available?

    Just got an email from Banshee that the new drops will be available in August. A discount will be available for those who's drops are off by 3mm. Didn't say how much.
  • 06-06-2013
    pinkey
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Just got an email from Banshee that the new drops will be available in August. A discount will be available for those who's drops are off by 3mm. Didn't say how much.

    what you mean with drops are off by 3mm, that you need the washer or?
  • 06-06-2013
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pinkey View Post
    what you mean with drops are off by 3mm, that you need the washer or?

    Please go through the thread and look at the above pics. Short version...yes 3mm off, no reliefs, people complained, Banshee listened and redesigned them for the 2014 bikes
  • 06-07-2013
    NoStyle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Please go through the thread and look at the above pics. Short version...yes 3mm off, no reliefs, people complained, Banshee listened and redesigned them for the 2014 bikes

    Yep - this! :thumbsup:
    Not shure if I should buy both again (142x12 26 and 650B), but the new 26ers would be nice to have while they fit 2.25er 650Bs with enough Clearance. Think over it when I can see some Pictures of the new ones, because it works as it is ...
  • 06-07-2013
    sakucee
    Old dropouts also create problem with XX1.

    The derailleur is so far out that low limit screw starts to limit off high limit.

    So you need to make your 42t or 11t work like shit :(

    Of course i could try to lathe 1-2mm off the mech hanger... hmm..
  • 06-08-2013
    Foxbat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    I sent in drawings a few months ago to modify forgings for 2014. I've taken on board all your opinions.

    Thanks for considering everyone's feedback. This is what makes Banshee and awesome bike company!
  • 06-12-2013
    bmxking45
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sakucee View Post
    Of course i could try to lathe 1-2mm off the mech hanger... hmm..

    I had to do this on my der hanger for my Sram X9 Type 2 in order to shift into my biggest cog. The limit screw bas backed all the way out too leaving me with no other choice. It now works fine and dandy.