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Thread: KS Linkage feel

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    KS Linkage feel

    Just curious to see what everyones opinions are so far on the new KS linkage design. Coming off a Rune V1 I feel that the new linkage is certainly superior to the old. I think that it is very pedal friendly and loves to be aimed down. However I am still finding there is a bit of a loose feel to it in the back and I cannot figure it out for the life of me. I have checked torques and checked the wheel as well thinking it could be that but I can find no play anywhere until I ride it I can feel it ever so slightly in the chatter. Quite honestly it doesnt affect the performance or anything for that matter but I can still feel it. The fact that I cannot figure out where it is coming from is making me crazy. I just want to see if anyone out there has a similar experience?

    I am not bashing this linkage design or anything because I think this bike is absolutely amazing and will probably hold the "best bike I have ever ridden" title for quite some time.

    HOLLA!!!

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    I'd suggest checking your rear wheel spoke tension too.

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    I would check rear hub preload as well. If a little on the loose side, can make the rear end feel a little noodly. I have about a dozen good rides on the V2 Rune so far and quite pleased with it's performance, especially going up/down on techy trail terrain. It's so much more smoother and compliant than the V1, offering great traction in both directions with very little kickback if at all. Due to this, feel like I can charge the rougher trails harder with more fun and less fatigue, so can and want to ride even longer than before on my usual rides. At first, thought the V2 didn't climb quite as well as the bike I was on before (SB66 w/same build and weight), but really coming to appreciate how smooth the suspension is that I find myself wanting to riding even a bit harder.
    Ride On!

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    Yeah I checked the hub as well. I am wondering if it could be a headset issue similar to what was mentioned in another thread posted today. I will have to check that out. I still think it feels more likely that it is coming from the rear triangle but we shall see.

    HOLLA!!!

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    What shock are you using? I'm super sensitive when it comes to most things and I've notice a similar feeling to what you're describing with my pre-production when I run the DHXA with PP off at high speed, other than that occasional feeling it feels as solid as a rock everywhere else with the shock with PP on or off.. It could be a number of things all adding up to give the feeling - specific tyre on the rear, tyre pressure, low shock pressure, slow rebound (my shock is stuck full slow, waiting to send it to be fixed). I've never bothered to try to isolate exactly what/where it comes from as I'm not really a super high speed guy, I prefer slow, chunky stuff, but I've got a new shock coming hopefully next week that'll maybe help eliminate the possibility of it being the crappy DHXA with serious mid-stroke wallow.


    Quote Originally Posted by bmxking45 View Post
    Yeah I checked the hub as well. I am wondering if it could be a headset issue similar to what was mentioned in another thread posted today. I will have to check that out. I still think it feels more likely that it is coming from the rear triangle but we shall see.

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    I have the Fox CTD. Unfortunately we just got killed with over 2ft of snow so I don't think I am gonna be able to take the bike out for some time now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    What shock are you using? I'm super sensitive when it comes to most things and I've notice a similar feeling to what you're describing with my pre-production when I run the DHXA with PP off at high speed, other than that occasional feeling it feels as solid as a rock everywhere else with the shock with PP on or off.. It could be a number of things all adding up to give the feeling - specific tyre on the rear, tyre pressure, low shock pressure, slow rebound (my shock is stuck full slow, waiting to send it to be fixed). I've never bothered to try to isolate exactly what/where it comes from as I'm not really a super high speed guy, I prefer slow, chunky stuff, but I've got a new shock coming hopefully next week that'll maybe help eliminate the possibility of it being the crappy DHXA with serious mid-stroke wallow.
    DHX-A ain't bad, i don't have mid stroke wallow at all, are you still running XS can on your proto frame?

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    I've still got the original DHXA that shipped with my Prime, unfortunately the damn rebound is stuck full slow, so I'm sure that's effecting the ride a lot, can't wait to get it back to Fox to be serviced if even to keep it as a backup. Luckily I found a 2010/11 X-Fusion 02 RLZ (OEM produced for Cdale for their Rize I believe), so hopefully getting the ability to adjust rebound will help and somehow think that it'll be easier to tune than the DHXA, which I never did really get to feel like I wanted it. This RLZ will hopefully work well enough to hold me over until I can get the DHXA serviced and/or get a X-Fusion Vector AIR.


    Quote Originally Posted by sakucee View Post
    DHX-A ain't bad, i don't have mid stroke wallow at all, are you still running XS can on your proto frame?
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    I want to know how this bike feels/rides with the Elka. I ran the Elka on my Rune as my only shock and the thing was absolutely amazing. I must admit that I certainly like the weight savings of the Fox CTD and as of right now I am not totally convinced on spending the $180 to get the Elka rebuilt for the Rune V2 geometry. I am beginning to lean towards saving up for the new XX1 drivetrain instead using the money from my Elka sell-off towards that purchase.

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    KS Linkage feel

    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I've still got the original DHXA that shipped with my Prime, unfortunately the damn rebound is stuck full slow, so I'm sure that's effecting the ride a lot, can't wait to get it back to Fox to be serviced if even to keep it as a backup. Luckily I found a 2010/11 X-Fusion 02 RLZ (OEM produced for Cdale for their Rize I believe), so hopefully getting the ability to adjust rebound will help and somehow think that it'll be easier to tune than the DHXA, which I never did really get to feel like I wanted it. This RLZ will hopefully work well enough to hold me over until I can get the DHXA serviced and/or get a X-Fusion Vector AIR.
    I'm derailing here a bit, but you might talk to Craig @ Avalanche and see what he charges for the DHX-A tunes he's doing now. Assuming you don't have any shipping issues, I'd put money into Craig making it a shock you want rather than having Fox bring it back to what it was. It's a back-of-my-mind option for mine, but probably won't since I'm happy with the Vector and don't have another use for it.
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  11. #11
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    evasive, thanks for the heads-up on the avy service!
    I've had an avalanche shock, definitely the best riding shock I've ever owned.

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    KS Linkage feel

    Sure. I have no experience with them, but have read lots of positive reports.

    Here's the link: http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.c...ster%20Kit.htm
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I've still got the original DHXA that shipped with my Prime, unfortunately the damn rebound is stuck full slow, so I'm sure that's effecting the ride a lot, can't wait to get it back to Fox to be serviced if even to keep it as a backup. Luckily I found a 2010/11 X-Fusion 02 RLZ (OEM produced for Cdale for their Rize I believe), so hopefully getting the ability to adjust rebound will help and somehow think that it'll be easier to tune than the DHXA, which I never did really get to feel like I wanted it. This RLZ will hopefully work well enough to hold me over until I can get the DHXA serviced and/or get a X-Fusion Vector AIR.
    Assuming you have right size air can for frame (my proto DHX-A air can was just too small for my weight) and you can get full travel with right amount of sag it is repetetion of adjusting BV pressures and bottom out.

    Personally my adjust routine is: correct sag, go ride, no mid range support, add BV pressure, if bottoming out hard, turn in BO dial, go ride, if mid range support is there, done, if too harsh, lower BV pressure, if bottoming out, again turn in BO dial, go ride... etc.

    Also you cannot 'check' BV pressure, volumes are so low on that air can so when you attach pump into it, most of the air has gone back into pump, always set it into a value and write it down.

    I have extra hassle of riding in sub zero temps so i need to check the values when the shock is at freezing temps

  14. #14
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    Yeah Ditto Dude, didn't know they offered service for them, definitely would be worth looking into if Fox is going to charge for the fix, heck depending on the price might give it a go instead even if Fox honor the warranty fix. Hoping the 02 RLZ works though, as I don't do anything even remotely close to big air and shouldn't really need a piggyback shock, hoping that if anything all I need to do is add the HV sleeve to it.

    I e-mailed them with the suspension curve Keith had sent me, so waiting to hear back. Not a suspension expert in the least, so wonder what Keith would say on this, which of the mods offered would he recommend?
    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    evasive, thanks for the heads-up on the avy service!
    I've had an avalanche shock, definitely the best riding shock I've ever owned.
    Sakucee, never been able to get full travel out of either Fox product on my Prime, despite running the "correct' SAG.When I do run the "correct" SAG then they normally feel horrible andwollowy and yet still can't use all travel. Geared to ride I weigh about 180lbs, so should be right about "perfect" for the avg Joe stuff is designed for, but just doesn't seem so. I think the AVY service/tune is about the only thing that will fix the DHXA so it rides like I like.
    Last edited by LyNx; 02-12-2013 at 04:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Sakucee, never been able to get full travel out of either Fox product on my Prime, despite running the "correct' SAG.When I do run the "correct" SAG then they normally feel horrible and blow through travel and yet still can't use all travel. Geared to ride I weigh about 180lbs, so should be right about "perfect" for the avg Joe stuff is designed for, but just doesn't seem so. I think the AVY service/tune is about the only thing that will fix the DHXA so it rides like I like.
    Too small air can you need bigger one, there is your problem (i weigh 64kg, i was missing out 30mm of travel practically).

    Since you want to get full travel you run much lower pressures on the main air can i guess, your spring rate is too low at that point -> no support.

    Bigger can, correct sag, can adjust proper BV pressure, better mid range support.

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    Re: KS Linkage feel

    Quote Originally Posted by bmxking45 View Post
    I want to know how this bike feels/rides with the Elka. I ran the Elka on my Rune as my only shock and the thing was absolutely amazing. I must admit that I certainly like the weight savings of the Fox CTD and as of right now I am not totally convinced on spending the $180 to get the Elka rebuilt for the Rune V2 geometry. I am beginning to lean towards saving up for the new XX1 drivetrain instead using the money from my Elka sell-off towards that purchase.
    I ran my Elka on the V1 and now the V2.... It's even better on the V2.

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    KS Linkage feel

    If you haven't seen it posted in the Rune thread, Mike Levy's review on PB included a fair amount of coverage on the new linkage. I'm on the phone, so excuse the mobile URL:

    http://m.pinkbike.com/u/mikelevy/blo...0B-Tested.html
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  18. #18
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    Some good stuff on the Rune, KS link suspension and DB Air from PB, learned a lot about the DB Air from that article.

    Wonder if the 26er folks will ever thank us 29er riders for the KS Link? After all it was the Prime and it's challenge to get that amount of travel and a short rear end that pushed Keith to the design AFAIK.

    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    If you haven't seen it posted in the Rune thread, Mike Levy's review on PB included a fair amount of coverage on the new linkage. I'm on the phone, so excuse the mobile URL:

    Banshee Rune 650B - Tested by mikelevy - Pinkbike
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    Ok I now have a bunch of rides on the bike and the chatter that I am feeling on the rooty/small rock stuff is beginning to get annoying. Is anyone esle feeling what I am feeling? I am running the bike with the 142 dropouts the Fox CTD Azonic outlaws and NOTHING is loose when I wiggle everything around. It kind of feels like the looseness that I got from the bushing issue on the V1. Any and all suggestions are appreciated.....I think I might have to take it over to my guys at the shop and let them have a spin on it so they can try to determine the issue.

    HOLLA!!!

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    If everything is tight around the frame and shock, then next place to look would be to check your derailleur, chain length, rear hub and headset.
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    ... plus Spoke-Tension, Crankset-Bearings and so on.
    I have never experienced any "loose" or "wiggeling" Feel on any Banshee-Frame. The V2 Spitty is plenty stiff, almost as stiff as my previous Wildcard.

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    I'll admit that at high speed with the DHXA I used to get a bit of a "loose" feeling, but that was probably due to the rebound being stuck "full slow" or just the shock itself, can't say I've experienced this since switching to the X-Fusion 02 RL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    If everything is tight around the frame and shock, then next place to look would be to check your derailleur, chain length, rear hub and headset.
    The headset was the next thing on my list but it def does not feel to be coming from that area. how would chain length play into the issue? or my derailler? Hub is def not loose either.

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    What fork are you using and how old is it? I had a similar feeling last year and worn fork bushings were the culprit.
    Taking it to a decent shop is the best idea, pretty hard to analyze something like this over the internet....

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    Can you describe the feeling any better or at least where it feels like it's coming from? I'm trying to understand what you're describing, but it's open to so much personal interpretation.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmxking45 View Post
    Ok I now have a bunch of rides on the bike and the chatter that I am feeling on the rooty/small rock stuff is beginning to get annoying. Is anyone esle feeling what I am feeling? I am running the bike with the 142 dropouts the Fox CTD Azonic outlaws and NOTHING is loose when I wiggle everything around. It kind of feels like the looseness that I got from the bushing issue on the V1. Any and all suggestions are appreciated.....I think I might have to take it over to my guys at the shop and let them have a spin on it so they can try to determine the issue.

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    I've noticed this feeling on my Tallboy LTc when I have the rebound too slow. This would line up with what LyNx is saying, too. Take out a click or two of rebound and see if it helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmxking45 View Post
    Ok I now have a bunch of rides on the bike and the chatter that I am feeling on the rooty/small rock stuff is beginning to get annoying. Is anyone esle feeling what I am feeling? I am running the bike with the 142 dropouts the Fox CTD Azonic outlaws and NOTHING is loose when I wiggle everything around. It kind of feels like the looseness that I got from the bushing issue on the V1. Any and all suggestions are appreciated.....I think I might have to take it over to my guys at the shop and let them have a spin on it so they can try to determine the issue.

    HOLLA!!!
    Do you have any play out the rear shock joint with frame? I am wrestling with some extra movement at this location (smidge of up/down movement) currently myself despite fresh DU bushing change and despite different torques. Play still comes about with 5Nm vs 12Nm. I am hoping this isn't a tolerance issue, cause I absolutely love everything else about the bike. I am currently running a RS Monarch RC3+ with corrective dimensioned hardware/reducers with standard 1/2" DU. Wonder if the polymer bushing Fox kit will get rid of this? I notice this bit of play affects the performance of my shock some as well, rides a little harsher despite recent shock rebuild and same air pressure as I was using before when I first got the bike 2 months ago.

    Edit: I also noticed that my pivots came loose some after a week's worth of fairly hard riding (lots of rock and chunk) while in Sedona, AZ last week. Didn't feel a lot of extra movement, but definitely some creaking going on and had to re-tension pivots to proper torque again once I got home. Rides smooth again, but just this rear shock top/bottom play for some reason?
    Ride On!

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    It is not a rebound issue either because I genarally run my rebound very fast....usually full fast. I like the little bit of help when I am bunny hopping and launching hits. Whenever I slowed it down more I never liked the way the bike would "pop" or lack thereof. As far as my fork.....I have a RS Lyric Coil 170mm. It was the fork that came with my Banshee Rune V1 build kit when I bought it in 2010. I did have the fork rebuilt less than one year ago so I doubt it is the worn fork bushing that MartinS describes. I will give a call to my boys at Blackstone Bikes who did the rebuild and ask them if they did replace the fork bushings, but again, I feel it in my feet and in the back which leads me to believe it is not in the front of the bike. For those who havent read the whole thread I am running the Fox CTD. I am coming off of the Elka Stage 5 which up to date has been thee best suspension platform I have ever used. I went CTD because I like the huge savings in weight and felt that the bike would perform similarly since it was designed around the air shock. I wish I wasnt so ambitious because I probably would have gone for the CCDBAir in hindsight.

    I really appreciate everyones comments. Hopefully I can come to a resolution!!

    HOLLA!!!
    Last edited by bmxking45; 03-22-2013 at 12:18 PM. Reason: oopsy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmxking45 View Post
    It is not a rebound issue either because I genarally run my rebound very fast....usually full fast.
    No rebound at all = rear chatters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sakucee View Post
    No rebound at all = rear chatters.
    ^i hear you man!! I tried multiple settings including slowing down the rebound and I still have it happening. I don't "think" it is the shock. I also flipped the bike over and was f'ing with the forks and I am not getting any play from there as well. So basically it's not the fork, it's not the rear shock, it's not the wheels, and it doesn't appear to be the linkage. I think I am just gonna have to deal with it. It kinda sux too because it just doesn't feel as dialed as my v1 rune did before the bushing play.

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    Is the shock working ok?

    If you max out rebound does do anything at all?

    I have no problems like that on my KS Link Prime, shock is infamous DHX-A

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    shock "seems" to be working just fine minus the chattery loosness that I feel. Its making me bananas!

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    Which setting are you running the shock in/Is it specific to a particular setting? As I said, on my DHXA, if I turned the PP off on fast flowy stuff the back felt loose, like maybe I had a low tyre, once I turned the PP on not a problem, felt stiff and fine, but as I said, my rebound was screwed on the DHXA to full slow.

    Check out the Prime thread, has some good info on setting SAG and the effects of having accurate SAG on the KS Link bikes is. I just VERY carefully set the SAG on my Prime with new X-Fusion 02 RL shock to the recommended 25%/13mm of shaft travel as per Keith's instructions to see just how it affects the performance. Previously had just loosely set SAG, didn't make sure to put on all gear and loaded pack and measure, just guesstimated roughly 25-30% shaft travel, last night loaded pack, shoes, helmet, gloves the works and then cut a piece of plastic to exactly 13mm and kept pumping up the shock until it fit between the o-ring and seal perfectly, which ended up being about 20 PSI more than I had had in.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmxking45 View Post
    shock "seems" to be working just fine minus the chattery loosness that I feel. Its making me bananas!
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    I will try your reccommendation all suited up with the water bag on and everything because I did set the sag the exact way you stated cutting a peice of tape to 16mm for the Rune however I did not do it fully suited up. Next time I ride (tomorrow?) i will try the different CTD settings as well and see what it feels in each of the three and perhaps I can make further deductions from there. Otherwise I think I may just have to send out my Elka and get that rebuilt for the V2rune because that shock was flawless for my V1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmxking45 View Post
    The headset was the next thing on my list but it def does not feel to be coming from that area. how would chain length play into the issue? or my derailler? Hub is def not loose either.
    If the chain is too long the rear derailleur will not be working optimally and so the chain could be whipping around and bounching off the frame, and the vibrations may feel like chatter. If the spring in the derailleur has stretched the same can happen. If you have a clutch derailleur, then the clutch could also be a source for a strange feeling if it is not working properly (adds a step like feel to suspension). If hub is gunged uo and needs a service it might not be spinning properly and backing the chain up when descending. Also check the shock hardwear is tight to the frame and to the shock. If it feels like it is moving relative to the frame then there might be tolerance issues between bolt and hardwear, (can be solved very easily with PTFE tape) if there is a tolerance issue between the shock and the hardwear then contact shock supplier about solving tolerances.... for such simple machines, bikes have a lot of potential locations for creaks and chatter.
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    "if there is a tolerance issue between the shock and the hardwear then contact shock supplier about solving tolerances"

    Great info, this is what I am about to do with my RS rear shock. Continued tolerance at the eyelet despite fresh DU and new hardware.
    Ride On!

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    the CTD works just fine on my V2 Rune... its not the shock... unless it has some sort of damage...

  38. #38
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    I get a bit of strange feeling of vertical play in the rear especially with the CTD shock. It's almost like it's the shock valving going from compression to rebound. It doesn't seem to be hardware related as there doesn't seem to be any play when the bike is static, but I feel it when I slightly compress the shock and then release and repeat. I can't say that I have noticed it while riding yet, but have felt it in the garage. I thought any play might be more noticable because of the shock being directly driven by the rear triangle. I also seem to feel it less with my RC4 than I do with the CTD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coiler-d View Post
    I get a bit of strange feeling of vertical play in the rear especially with the CTD shock. It's almost like it's the shock valving going from compression to rebound. It doesn't seem to be hardware related as there doesn't seem to be any play when the bike is static, but I feel it when I slightly compress the shock and then release and repeat. I can't say that I have noticed it while riding yet, but have felt it in the garage. I thought any play might be more noticable because of the shock being directly driven by the rear triangle. I also seem to feel it less with my RC4 than I do with the CTD.
    My CTD shock does the exact same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    If the chain is too long the rear derailleur will not be working optimally and so the chain could be whipping around and bounching off the frame, and the vibrations may feel like chatter. If the spring in the derailleur has stretched the same can happen. If you have a clutch derailleur, then the clutch could also be a source for a strange feeling if it is not working properly (adds a step like feel to suspension). If hub is gunged uo and needs a service it might not be spinning properly and backing the chain up when descending. Also check the shock hardwear is tight to the frame and to the shock. If it feels like it is moving relative to the frame then there might be tolerance issues between bolt and hardwear, (can be solved very easily with PTFE tape) if there is a tolerance issue between the shock and the hardwear then contact shock supplier about solving tolerances.... for such simple machines, bikes have a lot of potential locations for creaks and chatter.
    So I am waiting right now on my Sram X9 type 2 10Sp drivetrain. We will see if that gets rid of some of the "chatter" that I describe. I am hoping that it quiets things down significantly that can be attributed to chainslap. I will keep you posted!

    HOLLA!!!

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by coiler-d View Post
    I get a bit of strange feeling of vertical play in the rear especially with the CTD shock. It's almost like it's the shock valving going from compression to rebound. It doesn't seem to be hardware related as there doesn't seem to be any play when the bike is static, but I feel it when I slightly compress the shock and then release and repeat. I can't say that I have noticed it while riding yet, but have felt it in the garage. I thought any play might be more noticable because of the shock being directly driven by the rear triangle. I also seem to feel it less with my RC4 than I do with the CTD.
    FWIW, I had same rear shock vertical play at the eyelet as well, but with my RS Monarch RC3+ shock and RS hardware/DU despite replacing the DU/hardware and just could not get rid of it. I decided to order the Fox polymer bushing kit direct from Fox just to see if this would rid the play and if compatible with Monarch and it did! I am not sure why this is cause the hardware sizing is the same. I am just so stoked now that I don't have to worry about DU's/hardware wearing out all the time anymore and the back end (suspension performance) feels even better now. This obviously may not help you since you are already running the CTD w/Fox polymer eyelet kit. I would definitely try a different shock on there if you could to compare. FWIW, I have yet to meet a Fox air shock that I really like how it perform and/or didn't have problems with it eventually (last one had this push metering rod defect and a bunch of cavitation within a month's use according to Fox). IMO, Fox air shocks are way outplayed on bikes out there and they get you cause that is what comes stock (Fox must practically give them away to bike co's) and they tune them to the bike based on leverage ratio and other suspension dynamics of frame design. Play sucks, as I am having some front wheel stuff as well and hope it is not my Lyrik lowers causing it, which I think it is as front hub bearing is still good.
    Ride On!

  42. #42
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    Take a look at the rear caliper, it may be a lil loose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    ...es como acomodarte los calzones, seguro lo puede hacer alguien pero es mejor que lo haga uno mismo

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