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  1. #1
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    Has anyone else noticed???

    There is never a shortage of new fancy bikes that come out at this time of year in N. America with the Sea Otter being a huge showcase. I believe one of the most anticipated of these is the new Nomad 3. It is without question a nice rig. However, has anyone else noticed that it has nearly the same geometry as the Rune V-2 within 0.5 degree/0.3' difference? SC did not pull the Nomad 3 out of thin air despite various pundits exclamations over it's "radical" geometry. Banshee, Kona, Canfield and others have been doing this for several years. They are the "little" guys leading the way now. I thought about waiting to purchase a Nomad 3 as I decided to move on to a 27.5 Enduro/AM/big hit whatever kinda name they call it these days. However, I opted to go with a Banshee Rune V-2 instead. It basically is the aluminum Nomad 3 and at nearly half the cost too.

    Speaking of pricing, I believe that the "money is no object" boutique crowd is becoming the endpoint for SC. I think they will become a bigger version of Ibis dropping aluminum bikes all together or more likely drop all aluminum VPP designs in favor of single pivot versions of those bikes to satisfy their lower price point quotas. This was tough for me having been a diehard SC fan since '99 and owning five of them since then.

    Banshee has the vibe that SC did more than a decade ago. Just a few guys building/designing no bs leading edge rigs with great customer service. I am glad to join the gang.
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  2. #2
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    That much bold text gives me a headache.

    Please fix.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    That much bold text gives me a headache.

    Please fix.
    I happen to like the way it looks. I prefer reading it that way as well. I look through loupes all day so I find it more comfortable to read because of the increased contrast. Plus, it is a simple way to not look like every other post out there.

    Sorry that it offends you, but I don't really give a rats tuchus.

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  4. #4
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    Don't even get me started. Take a look at Francis Cebedo's review for the Trek Stache (Review: Trek Stache 8 ? Rally 29er Hardtail | Mountain Bike Review) if you want a good laugh. The Stache is a total rip-off of the Paradox, but you would think it's a revolutionary bike if you only read the review and didn't know any better (I love how Francis refers to it a "rally hardtail" as if Trek had just created an entirely new category of bike).

    Any of you guys notice some how comments here get "selectively edited"? When the Stache review came out, I was one of the first to comment on it saying simply "It's a rip-off of the Banshee Paradox." It didn't take long before that comment was deleted. Yeah, the only way to beat the truth is to hide it.

    When MTBR had their "27.5 All-Mountain/Enduro Bike Round Up" last year I commented that the Rune V2 was missing. Francis replied "This is coming in Feb." Didn't happen. The Rune was excluded from the "Round Up" and was also excluded from this year's "Enduro Compare-O". Of course the Trek Remedy 9.8 was included. Don't get me wrong. I like Trek bikes. It's just Trek must be kicking in some major advertising/sponsorship $$$ for MTBR to protect them the way they do.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsWin View Post
    Don't even get me started. Take a look at Francis Cebedo's review for the Trek Stache (Review: Trek Stache 8 ? Rally 29er Hardtail | Mountain Bike Review) if you want a good laugh. The Stache is a total rip-off of the Paradox, but you would think it's a revolutionary bike if you only read the review and didn't know any better (I love how Francis refers to it a "rally hardtail" as if Trek had just created an entirely new category of bike).

    Any of you guys notice some how comments here get "selectively edited"? When the Stache review came out, I was one of the first to comment on it saying simply "It's a rip-off of the Banshee Paradox." It didn't take long before that comment was deleted. Yeah, the only way to beat the truth is to hide it.

    When MTBR had their "27.5 All-Mountain/Enduro Bike Round Up" last year I commented that the Rune V2 was missing. Francis replied "This is coming in Feb." Didn't happen. The Rune was excluded from the "Round Up" and was also excluded from this year's "Enduro Compare-O". Of course the Trek Remedy 9.8 was included. Don't get me wrong. I like Trek bikes. It's just Trek must be kicking in some major advertising/sponsorship $$$ for MTBR to protect them the way they do.
    Sticking it to the man!!! Ha! The last revolutionary design that Trek had was this...

    Has anyone else noticed???-9000side.jpg

    Trek and most companies play it safe. I like the rebels and the little guys. It's the little guys that will dare.



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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsWin View Post
    Don't even get me started. Take a look at Francis Cebedo's review for the Trek Stache (Review: Trek Stache 8 ? Rally 29er Hardtail | Mountain Bike Review) if you want a good laugh. The Stache is a total rip-off of the Paradox, but you would think it's a revolutionary bike if you only read the review and didn't know any better (I love how Francis refers to it a "rally hardtail" as if Trek had just created an entirely new category of bike).

    Any of you guys notice some how comments here get "selectively edited"? When the Stache review came out, I was one of the first to comment on it saying simply "It's a rip-off of the Banshee Paradox." It didn't take long before that comment was deleted. Yeah, the only way to beat the truth is to hide it.

    When MTBR had their "27.5 All-Mountain/Enduro Bike Round Up" last year I commented that the Rune V2 was missing. Francis replied "This is coming in Feb." Didn't happen. The Rune was excluded from the "Round Up" and was also excluded from this year's "Enduro Compare-O". Of course the Trek Remedy 9.8 was included. Don't get me wrong. I like Trek bikes. It's just Trek must be kicking in some major advertising/sponsorship $$$ for MTBR to protect them the way they do.
    There's a reason you see the same dozen bikes tested in just about every magazine/website. Its seems companies like Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, Ibis, Intense, etc. are the one's spending advertising dollars and sucking up to the bike media.

    Smaller companies like Banshee aren't buying full page ads so there isn't much motivation to test their products.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by HELLBELLY View Post
    Banshee, Kona, Canfield and others have been doing this for several years. They are the "little" guys leading the way now.
    Totally agree. When I first saw the geo spec's on the new Nomad my immediate thought was "despite the extra travel, my Canfields Brothers The One pretty much has this already".

    It just goes to show how a big company like Santa Cruz, carbon and marketing dollars can get people to do what they want.
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  8. #8
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    I own a Rune V2 and I am waiting for delivery of my new Nomad.

    Why am I changing frames when the Rune is an excellent bike?

    I wanted a nomad origonally, but I didn't like the old school geometry with a very short reach even on the XL, I wasn't willing to buy the bike because of this.

    I am on a large Rune, XL was sold out in Au at the time and was going to be 3-6 month wait minimum. So I thought I'd give a carbon frame a go when I purchase a new frame size that will fit me better.

    5 Year warranty on the Nomad, can't argue with that.

    Longer chainstays and steeper STA are going to make this a better climber for my excessively long legs. These are only small differences from the Rune, but small changes in geometry have large effects.

    I tend to do a lot of XC on the rune... it's fun to ride, so I ride it everywhere, the Nomad is substantially lighter, this is a selling point for me.

    The Rune is fair better value, especially with a CCDB shock.

    The runes adjustable and interchangeable dropouts are excellent, being able to run two wheel sizes is a great selling point. I also tend to change dropout height regularly, depending on the riding destination. It's quite noticeable.

    I have no complaints about the runes performance, other than steep technical climbs, which I can clear on a nomad c without issues... but to be fair I bough the rune for the downhill side of riding, but it was capable enough for me to dabble in more than it was desgned for.

    Just my musings... I am also going to run 26 on the nomad, because I can (and the budget doesn't allow new wheels after a 4k au frame price.).

  9. #9
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    After seeing a pic of your Rune, I agree that you need an XL badly! Congrats on the new bike.

  10. #10
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    So I agree that the Nomad 3 geometry is very close to the Rune v2 set up with 26" wheels, but if you want a 27.5 set up the Rune's BB height is much higher 13.8" to 14.3" on the Rune vs. 13.4" on the Nomad. And, that bb height is based on a 545mm a2c fork which is about 10mm too short for a 160mm 27.5 fork. The chainstay length is also significantly longer with the 27.5 dropouts. So I think the Rune is a great 26" bike, but the 27.5 setup is an after thought.

  11. #11
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    Well within spitting distance...

    Quote Originally Posted by davemk View Post
    So I agree that the Nomad 3 geometry is very close to the Rune v2 set up with 26" wheels, but if you want a 27.5 set up the Rune's BB height is much higher 13.8" to 14.3" on the Rune vs. 13.4" on the Nomad. And, that bb height is based on a 545mm a2c fork which is about 10mm too short for a 160mm 27.5 fork. The chainstay length is also significantly longer with the 27.5 dropouts. So I think the Rune is a great 26" bike, but the 27.5 setup is an after thought.
    I have yet to meet a single Banshee rider (on Spitfires, Primes or Runes) who uses anything but the low setting. My statements are based on this. In that setting with 27.5" wheels the differences between the Rune and Nomad are very minor. Four and two tenths of inch for the BB height and chainstay length respectively. The head angles are the same and the seat angles differ by a half a degree. I am not claiming they are exactly alike nor am discounting the differences in performance that these differences may provide, but they are exceedingly close. The Rune V-2 has been out for nearly two years and it's reviews are overwhelmingly positive, stellar in fact. I have no doubt the Nomad will be great too, but one has to decide if a 2/3's of a pound, a degree and combined 6/10's of inch difference is worth $1500 more to you.
    the going won't get good 'til I'm good and gone

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HELLBELLY View Post
    I have yet to meet a single Banshee rider (on Spitfires, Primes or Runes) who uses anything but the low setting. My statements are based on this. In that setting with 27.5" wheels the differences between the Rune and Nomad are very minor. Four and two tenths of inch for the BB height and chainstay length respectively. The head angles are the same and the seat angles differ by a half a degree. I am not claiming they are exactly alike nor am discounting the differences in performance that these differences may provide, but they are exceedingly close. The Rune V-2 has been out for nearly two years and it's reviews are overwhelmingly positive, stellar in fact. I have no doubt the Nomad will be great too, but one has to decide if a 2/3's of a pound, a degree and combined 6/10's of inch difference is worth $1500 more to you.
    I agree they are similar bikes, and I'm sure both of them are amazing. My only point is that to me the Rune feels like a 26" wheel designed bike that you can run 27.5 wheels on with a change in dropouts. If you actually built up a Rune with a 27.5 specific fork the bb height even in low position would be a half an inch higher than the Nomad or the Rune with 26" wheels. For me that is enough added height to feel in the corners. (The HA would also be slacker than 65 degrees) But, like you said, is the Nomad's 27.5 specific design and lower weight enough to justify the higher price tag? That is up to the person laying down the cash.

    Also, is the list price difference really $1500? I thought the Nomad msrp was $3000 and the Rune was $2000.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemk View Post
    I agree they are similar bikes, and I'm sure both of them are amazing. My only point is that to me the Rune feels like a 26" wheel designed bike that you can run 27.5 wheels on with a change in dropouts. If you actually built up a Rune with a 27.5 specific fork the bb height even in low position would be a half an inch higher than the Nomad or the Rune with 26" wheels. For me that is enough added height to feel in the corners. (The HA would also be slacker than 65 degrees) But, like you said, is the Nomad's 27.5 specific design and lower weight enough to justify the higher price tag? That is up to the person laying down the cash.
    Again, these are very small if noticeable differences. Maybe I am dumb, but there should be no change in the head angle between the bikes as the Nomad is spec'd with a standard external headset cups versus the zero stack the Rune comes with. The AC height on a 160 Pike is 552mm regardless. In addition, every rider will have the ability to set up their own personal cockpit position. I personally have my stem slammed (as the hipsters say) with a low 1/2" rise bar and a 50mm stem. In regards to BB height, I recently demoed a new 160mm travel bike that had a BB height lower than either of them. It rode great, but you had to really be mindful of your pedal position when it got nasty or in any off camber stuff. Finally, both bikes BB height are relatively low compared to what preceded them (Nomad 2) and people loved those so I think I will be fine. I will post my Rune when it's built in the next few weeks.
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  14. #14
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    I thought this too when i saw it released. It is a great looking bike but VPP feels terrible especially compared to KS.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemk View Post
    Also, is the list price difference really $1500? I thought the Nomad msrp was $3000 and the Rune was $2000.
    The best price I've seen on the Rune was an old link for the '13 Rune on sale for $1699, but the '14 rune is $2,000 with the Float X and $2,250 with the CCDB Air. The Nomad is $2,999 with the Monarch Plus RC3 Debonair, and $3,229 with the Vivid R2C. So still a $1,000 difference.

    That gap may narrow and make the decision tougher if Santa Cruz brings the new low-cost carbon option to the Nomad...

  16. #16
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    The Rune frame alone w/o a shock can be had for under $1400. You can then go several routes the best being one of the three Cane Creek DB Air's which new can be had at lowest for $500. Obviously you can go even lower on a shock via Ebay. That's still under $2K with a superior shock over the Nomad.

    I have read a few comments noting that the Rune's BB is higher than the Nomad and that this could be a detractor. The difference is less than 0.5" so unless you are the princess from the "pea" story fame I doubt you will notice it. I have 170mm cranks on mine and I still have pedal strikes. I can only imagine it would take even more getting used to with the BB any lower.

    I am not against anyone getting a Nomad. I am sure it will kicka$$, but the Rune is a great less expensive alternative and if you get a chance to ride one you will see what I am talking about. It's abilities are mind-blowing in fact and it is far and away the best pedaling bike I have ridden, including being superior to VPP's.


    Has anyone else noticed???-rune.jpg
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by HELLBELLY View Post
    [B]The Rune frame alone w/o a shock can be had for under $1400. You can then go several routes the best being one of the three Cane Creek DB Air's which new can be had at lowest for $500. Obviously you can go even lower on a shock via Ebay. That's still under $2K with a superior shock over the Nomad.
    I need to do some research, but it seems to me the real choice is between the CCDB XV shock or the XV CS version. (The DB inline could be fitted, but I feel a 160mm travel bike should have a remote reservoir shock) Is the climb switch a necessity for the Rune?

  18. #18
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    I say no.
    But then again I never tried one with CS...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by zuuds View Post
    I need to do some research, but it seems to me the real choice is between the CCDB XV shock or the XV CS version. (The DB inline could be fitted, but I feel a 160mm travel bike should have a remote reservoir shock) Is the climb switch a necessity for the Rune?

    The Rune can use any of the DB Air shocks including the Inline. I have an Inline coming for mine that I won and I asked Cane Creek specifically about this. They said no problem. I will report back when I install it.

    As far as the CS being a necessity, I would say no. I have ran mine with just a standard DB Air and it is absolutely an amazing climber. I am sure it would be even better with a Climb Switch, but it is pretty damn impressive without it
    .
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