• 02-19-2013
    rokesoke
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    That is a very tidy machine indeed!

    How you getting on so far...dialled in the CCDB yet?

    I have ridden the bike twice. I'm still adjusting everything but the bike gives signs that will go very well. Now I have the setting that indicates people of Cane Creek.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Also, what size front ring you got there on the XX1?

    28T. I have another 32-T, it will mount on avalanche races.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mishtar View Post
    What rims are those?

    Mavic Crossmax ST Wheels, the best option for enduro, in my opinion.
  • 02-20-2013
    georgeslo
    Keith. a couple of questions before pulling the trigger on the rune v2 frame. I am planning to get a rune v2 with ccdba. does it come with the xv can as standard and is all the necessary material (bushings etc.) already included?

    Also the dealer offered a banshee headset (tapered zero stack), who makes your headsets and do you have any information as to lower and upper cup stack?
  • 02-20-2013
    builttoride
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by georgeslo View Post
    Keith. a couple of questions before pulling the trigger on the rune v2 frame. I am planning to get a rune v2 with ccdba. does it come with the xv can as standard and is all the necessary material (bushings etc.) already included?

    Also the dealer offered a banshee headset (tapered zero stack), who makes your headsets and do you have any information as to lower and upper cup stack?

    Our headsets are made by a top quality manufacturer (First components) as used by many other more expensive headset brands... you can see the details here http://www.firstcomponents.com/image.../images/RK.jpg

    If buying the CCDBair with the frame then it will come with volume spacers so that you can fine tune the progression to your liking. It also includes all hardwear required to fit the shock on the bike. The Xvol cans are not avaliable with frames yet... it's up to you if you need them on the Rune V2, personally I prefer the standard can, but if you like a more linear feel then you could always pick up the Xvol aftermarket.
  • 02-20-2013
    tomasis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hanson View Post
    I'm trying to decide what size i should get, I'm in the middle of L and XL.

    I'm 192cm with 92cm inseam.

    The current bike has a 610mm ETT and 1190mm wheelbase. It has a somewhat tall head tube of 140mm plus 40mm spacers. I've not reflected over that until I noticed that the Rune only has a 125mm head tube and people only use 1-2cm spacers. I've removed all spacers for tomorrows ride to see what that does to the feel of the bike.
    I currently run the bike with a 70mm stem and 780mm bar.

    I've tried to measure my current bike and trying out different stems and bar height
    to match both a L and XL body position to try to find an answer but the the overall feel of the bikes differ, head tube angle, seat tube angle, different chain stay length etc. that it's only the static body position that I can get a feeling of.

    The big question is if I should go with a XL and run 30-40mm stem or
    a L with 50-60mm stem, how many spacers on the toptube etc.
    Another concern is the seatpost length I need to use on a L frame.

    I ofcourse understand that all this comes down to personal preferences
    but I have no possibility to test both L and XL before buying and don't
    want to buy the wrong size.

    I really want a bike that I can ride at bike parks but it will mainly be used
    for technical trail rides, both shorter 2 hour ride but also 6-7 hour weekend rides.
    There are no long climbs, but the climbs are often steep and technical.

    Personally, I'd go for bigger frame (XL). Too large is easier to find way around than contrary.

    Im 177 and I had choose between M or L. It became L and I'd use 30mm stem. Im going take the parcel out today :)

    Im located in Borås and study in Gothenburg ;) It'd be fun to have Rune ride together some day :thumbsup:
  • 02-20-2013
    general lee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomasis View Post
    Personally, I'd go for bigger frame (XL). Too large is easier to find way around than contrary.

    Im 177 and I had choose between M or L. It became L and I'd use 30mm stem. Im going take the parcel out today :)

    Im located in Borås and study in Gothenburg ;) It'd be fun to have Rune ride together some day :thumbsup:

    Same with me. I'm just a bit over 178 and ride a large w/ a 40mm stem, same as on my DH bike. To an extent it depends on how you ride and want the bike to handle. Personally I set it up to be as little compromise on aggressive descending, otherwise whats the reward for all the climbing? A medium might have been more comfortable and better handling at slow speeds or uphill but it's a lot easier to make a bigger bike climb than a small bike descend.
  • 02-20-2013
    georgeslo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    Our headsets are made by a top quality manufacturer (First components) as used by many other more expensive headset brands... you can see the details here http://www.firstcomponents.com/image.../images/RK.jpg

    If buying the CCDBair with the frame then it will come with volume spacers so that you can fine tune the progression to your liking. It also includes all hardwear required to fit the shock on the bike. The Xvol cans are not avaliable with frames yet... it's up to you if you need them on the Rune V2, personally I prefer the standard can, but if you like a more linear feel then you could always pick up the Xvol aftermarket.

    No, i actually really like the progressivnes of my bikes' suspension ( i have max volume spacers in my current fox rp23), so i'll probably stick with the standard air can.

    Oh, one more thing. The BB specs, because i'll be getting a new one?

    Thanks again
  • 02-20-2013
    Spooky221
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by general lee View Post
    Same with me. I'm just a bit over 178 and ride a large w/ a 40mm stem, same as on my DH bike. To an extent it depends on how you ride and want the bike to handle. Personally I set it up to be as little compromise on aggressive descending, otherwise whats the reward for all the climbing? A medium might have been more comfortable and better handling at slow speeds or uphill but it's a lot easier to make a bigger bike climb than a small bike descend.


    This is good to hear, i'm of a similar height and have also ordered the large. How do you find it climbing though, out of curiosity?
  • 02-20-2013
    uzurpator
    I got my frame today.

    At first glance:
    It is _tiny_. I have an XL, and it looks compact enough to be considered medium by most.

    It is burly. Due to its compact nature the weight is quite high, thus the frame breeds respect :)

    However, my dealer sent me 142mm drops instead of 150 I ordered, so I am facing delay.
  • 02-20-2013
    georgeslo
    you are joking right? your xl seems comparable in size to a medium frame of which bike?????

    the numbers tell me it has quite a long top tube for an enduro bike, and a reach almost longer than a sb66 which is considered to be huge.

    or am i missing something here?

    btw, how tall are you and your inseam?
  • 02-20-2013
    uzurpator
    I am 6'5" and up to recently I have been riding BMC Supertrail -> me at backyard in Katowice, Poland - photo by uzurpator - Pinkbike

    In comparison Rune, in spite of being more of a bike ( more travel, longer wheelbase ) it is visually smaller :)
  • 02-20-2013
    georgeslo
    by smaller you mean lower, because the bmc has a huge standover and a ridiculously long headtube, whereas the rune is much lower and has an almost identical ett?

    i'm 6ft4and would love to see how you fit on the xl frame in a regular pedaling position.

    you got me scared now that it's too small for me....
  • 02-20-2013
    uzurpator
    Well put.

    The geometry numbers are similar - HTT is identical and due to steeper HA BMC had ( well, has, I still use it ) shorter wheelbase.

    However when I grabbed the Rune out of the box I first had to check if I really got an XL, because it seemed so small.

    Size of the bike is apparent after putting in a fork and wheels :)
  • 02-21-2013
    Sandrello
    hi guys,

    I'm waiting my Rune v2. I hope i could ride it in March.
    Just a question: Does anyone knows if the RS Reverb 420 mm fit well into the seat tube?

    Thank you

    p.s. my Rune is L size
  • 02-21-2013
    builttoride
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sandrello View Post
    hi guys,

    I'm waiting my Rune v2. I hope i could ride it in March.
    Just a question: Does anyone knows if the RS Reverb 420 mm fit well into the seat tube?

    Thank you

    p.s. my Rune is L size

    That is what I am running in my frame (Large frame 34" legs, with non stealth version) and have not had any issues at all.
  • 02-21-2013
    uzurpator
    The mystery why the frame seemed so small is solved.

    I got a wrong size ( L instead of XL ).

    I raged.
  • 02-21-2013
    MindPatterns
    Anyone know the frame size and the rider's height from Pinkbike's Banshee Rune test?
  • 02-21-2013
    BeezKneez
    Frame size looks like a medium to me.
  • 02-21-2013
    yancho
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MindPatterns View Post
    Anyone know the frame size and the rider's height from Pinkbike's Banshee Rune test?

    Medium.
  • 02-21-2013
    georgeslo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    The mystery why the frame seemed so small is solved.

    I got a wrong size ( L instead of XL ).

    I raged.

    You're kidding :madman:

    Where did you buy it from?

    I'd be pissed, hope youi get a replacement soon.
  • 02-21-2013
    uzurpator
    I am not joking.

    I got it from polish distributor TWR :)

    Anyhow - I'll be examining the box tomorrow to see if it is labeled as XL or just L. I'll also measure the frame. Maybe it is just wrong sticker :)

    Anyhow, if the box is mis-labeled then I fully expect someone pulling out a XL frame out of their box, with 150mm drops and then wailing "WHYYY, BANSHEE, WHYYYYY".

    If I get info that the replacement will come in 6 or so weeks, then I will go nuclear :/
  • 02-22-2013
    uzurpator
    4 Attachment(s)
    Story of my frame - continued.

    The frame is an XL - the actual TT measures 610mm and ST is 20". However the sticker on the frame is from the large frame.

    The rear triangle is crooked. With 150mm dropouts I get 140mm of space.

    EDIT: I attach pictures:

    Attachment 774424
    Attachment 774425
    Attachment 774426
    Attachment 774427
  • 02-22-2013
    georgeslo
    :eekster:

    actual tt 610mm, what two points did you measure here?

    misaligned rear triangle stories is what put me off from buying a tracer.... haven't heard that banshee ever had similar qc issues

    how did the distributor comment?

    any pics of the rear triangle.... is the deformation visible to the naked eye?
  • 02-22-2013
    uzurpator
    I measured center-top of the HT to center-top of the ST. This should work out to 635mm claimed as effective.

    The swingarm does not seem damaged. It is most likely Pacific Cycles being sloppy on the final alignment. I guess I cant cold set it to correct size, but you know, I bought this frame because I wanted warranty and cold setting without being allowed to sounds like voiding it :)

    BTW - I attached pics to above post.
  • 02-22-2013
    georgeslo
    could it be that you just got the 142 droputs instead of the 150 ones???
  • 02-22-2013
    uzurpator
    Not likely, altho that was my first suspicion. The rear triangle measures 140mm in the widest place as well. Such stance would not allow to run 150mm hub ( chain would rub the frame in the highest gear ).
  • 02-22-2013
    builttoride
    I'm sorry to hear that your frame has been damaged in shipping. Was there any obvious damage to the box that you receved from distributor?

    Jay personally tests all frames as they go into boxes at the factory for rear hub spacing and wheel alignment, so it left the factory properly aligned.

    Please contact your distributor about a warranty.
  • 02-22-2013
    uzurpator
    There was no visible damage to the box. Thanks for confirmation that it is indeed a damage to the frame. I shall contact my distributor :)
  • 02-22-2013
    tomasis
    rear triangel is just little tight. i just pushed apart to install 150mm rear hub :p

    measured unattached, it is 144mm between dropouts. is it just ok?
  • 02-23-2013
    JansonJanson
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rokesoke View Post
    Hello.
    My handle is the Riser Bar and has only ENVE logo in the center.
    ENVE Carbon Riser Bar

    only a 700mm bar on that machine, isn´t a little narrow?
    i love mine - cut down to 770mm
  • 02-23-2013
    MindPatterns
    Can anyone (Keith?) tell me why the build kits for the Rune come along with a 60 mm stem? was the frame in some way designed around/with this stem length in mind? I know a lot of you ride shorter stems on their Runes, and it keeps me wondeRing why Banshee did not choose shorter stems for their build kits. Cheers!
  • 02-23-2013
    rokesoke
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JansonJanson View Post
    only a 700mm bar on that machine, isn´t a little narrow?
    i love mine - cut down to 770mm

    I think it's a matter of position and personal preferences.
    I could not go with that broomstick ;-)
  • 02-23-2013
    MartinS
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MindPatterns View Post
    Can anyone (Keith?) tell me why the build kits for the Rune come along with a 60 mm stem? was the frame in some way designed around/with this stem length in mind? I know a lot of you ride shorter stems on their Runes, and it keeps me wondeRing why Banshee did not choose shorter stems for their build kits. Cheers!

    I'd be guessing because it is a pretty average sized stem for most of the Banshees - people seem to run 50 to 70 range. When buying a bike the stem is probably the most commonly swapped out item (next to saddle) according to personal preferance and local terrain - everyone is different and you can't please everyone, may as well try to hit the middle ground...
  • 02-24-2013
    cfrench
    it is a matter of preference but there seems to be alot of divergence towards the 730-740mm range in the AM and Enduro categories and these folks typically run 50 to 60mm stems. I advise people to start wide and take 20mm off at a time until you find your sweet spot...since you can put back on what youve taken off.
  • 02-24-2013
    uzurpator
    Grand finale.

    I have struck a deal with my distributor. Since I am not eager to wait 6-10 weeks for a replacement frame/swingarm, we concluded that I can mount the rear wheel and see if there is a misalignment.

    There was none visible, the frame is dead straight.

    Thus we decided that I can use the frame, and if there is even a sliver of doubt about integrity of the bike, I'll get a warranty replacement ASAP.

    So, with that in mind, my bike starts to take shape of this:



    The fork is at 180mm. I still wait for a few details.
    - Still need to bleed the brakes
    - Shorten the steerer
    - Cut the bars somewhat ( currently it is 915mm SSC Yardstick )
    - New seat
    - Need shock bushings :P
    - Chainring will be replaced from the 39/26 they are now to:



    35/21
  • 02-24-2013
    cfrench
    why are you changing those rings, what cassette have you got on?
  • 02-24-2013
    georgeslo
    great to see you sorted the bike. btw it looks anything but small :)
    how many spacers are you running under your stem and what is the seatpost length above the seattube (tot of seatpost to seatpost clamp)?
  • 02-24-2013
    uzurpator
    frenchcr: The cassette is 12-30 Tiagra unit. I will replace the current rings because 35/21 that is my preferred gearing. 39/26 is way too high for me for a bike of this sort :)

    georgeslo: thanks. The seatpost is about 8 inches above the collar. But I honestly cannot tell how much exactly. The seat is yet not perfectly positioned. I have 37mm of spacers below the stem. But that is going to change after a first few rides.
  • 02-24-2013
    ironxcross
    Ordered a frame finally, so excited to ride it the wait is going to be painful! Here's my build plan:

    Rune v2 frame large ano black
    Fox float ctd
    X-fusion Slant RL2 DLA (still dying to find real info on this fork, talas might be a back up)
    Havoc or Haven carbon bars
    Havoc stem
    XT brakes
    XX1 drivetrain
    Stans Flow EX 650b wheelset (can get them cheap with their 3.30 hubs, gotta save money somewhere)
    MRP AMG
    Kronolog post (a gamble I know, but I like the fixed cable)
  • 02-25-2013
    Calhoun
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ironxcross View Post
    Ordered a frame finally, so excited to ride it the wait is going to be painful! Here's my build plan:

    Rune v2 frame large ano black
    Fox float ctd
    X-fusion Slant RL2 DLA (still dying to find real info on this fork, talas might be a back up)
    Havoc or Haven carbon bars
    Havoc stem
    XT brakes
    XX1 drivetrain
    Stans Flow EX 650b wheelset (can get them cheap with their 3.30 hubs, gotta save money somewhere)
    MRP AMG
    Kronolog post (a gamble I know, but I like the fixed cable)

    Why not Vengeance?

    http://www.xfusionshox.com/product/f...e-hlr-dla.html

    Slant seems more like a fork for the Spitfire.
  • 02-25-2013
    MindPatterns
    Isn't the vengeance building really high? Which brings me to a question since I have yet to decide which fork I will run: Are there any noticeable differences between the Rock Shox Lyrik and teh Vengeance? I.e. should I prefer the Lyrik over the Vengeance or the aother way around?
  • 02-25-2013
    ptd
    I'm ok with the vengeance axle to crown on my bike, running 170mm version.

    I'm 172cm tall, on a medium frame, 0 spacers under the stem.
    50mm stem on 740mm bars with 20mm rise.
    BB height and head angle is fine so far on slack and neutral setting for different types of riding.
    Also good for 650b clearance on arch and crown.

    If you like -really- low front ends then maybe choose other forks, or run 10mm or flat as possible bars with the vengeance.

    It's something like 10mm higher than most forks (?) - make sure you run a zero stack lower cup and could make the difference.

    Vengeance forks are good for a solid build, damping adjustments and small bump is great, very stiff fork and suits the frame with DBair shock.

    I haven't tried Lyrik or Fox 36s, but compared to Fox 40s they are very confidence inspiring.
  • 02-25-2013
    Calhoun
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MindPatterns View Post
    Isn't the vengeance building really high? Which brings me to a question since I have yet to decide which fork I will run: Are there any noticeable differences between the Rock Shox Lyrik and teh Vengeance? I.e. should I prefer the Lyrik over the Vengeance or the aother way around?

    with a ZS lower cup the extra height can be negated. Also the Vengeance Air has an internal travel adjust which will also lessen the A2C.

    Between the two forks I feel there is no comparison. X Fusion is leagues ahead of Rock Shocks in terms of damping. The compression adjustments have a huge range, and two clicks goes very far. I was never very happy with the Lyrik. Terrible brake dive and compressions adjustments felt numb.
  • 02-25-2013
    ironxcross
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Calhoun View Post
    Why not Vengeance?

    http://www.xfusionshox.com/product/f...e-hlr-dla.html

    Slant seems more like a fork for the Spitfire.

    Price and weight. Definitely still considering the vengeance, or any other fork, but on paper the slant sounds perfect for me. A claimed pound lighter than the DLA vengeance, cheap (after going all xx1 I need to save a few pennies somewhere so I can finish this build soon), and I'm pretty confident I'll be happy with 160mm. I really want travel adjust because most of my XC rides I'll use it for are the straight up, straight down kind of ride so I spend the first 1-2 hours chugging away up a hill. So being able to drop the front end for that is pretty important.

    Still have some questions I'd like answered on the Slant though. Can anyone confirm it will run 650b without reducing travel? 99% sure it will, but not a lot of official stuff released from x-fusion. Also, anyone know exactly what kind of control you will have over the dampening? Their site makes no mention of any dampening control, but in the picture here:

    Video: X-Fusion Launch 2013 Suspension Range - BikeRadar

    of the RL damper knob, looks like there's a + and - for compression? I emailed them asking if the Slant will have any compression adjustment, but no response. If there's no compression adjustments, as their site indicates, then I'll definitely be back to the drawing board.
  • 02-25-2013
    Calhoun
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ironxcross View Post
    Price and weight. Definitely still considering the vengeance, or any other fork, but on paper the slant sounds perfect for me. A claimed pound lighter than the DLA vengeance, cheap (after going all xx1 I need to save a few pennies somewhere so I can finish this build soon), and I'm pretty confident I'll be happy with 160mm. I really want travel adjust because most of my XC rides I'll use it for are the straight up, straight down kind of ride so I spend the first 1-2 hours chugging away up a hill. So being able to drop the front end for that is pretty important.

    Still have some questions I'd like answered on the Slant though. Can anyone confirm it will run 650b without reducing travel? 99% sure it will, but not a lot of official stuff released from x-fusion. Also, anyone know exactly what kind of control you will have over the dampening? Their site makes no mention of any dampening control, but in the picture here:

    Video: X-Fusion Launch 2013 Suspension Range - BikeRadar

    of the RL damper knob, looks like there's a + and - for compression? I emailed them asking if the Slant will have any compression adjustment, but no response. If there's no compression adjustments, as their site indicates, then I'll definitely be back to the drawing board.

    The Vengeance I linked has all of the features you want. But you are right, there is a difference of 1lb.

    From what I understand the Slant does not have any external adjustments for Compression. The knob in that picture is the "lockout." The Vengeance HLR has external High and Low speed compression and Rebound adjusters. Also from looking at the specs I think the Vengeance is their only 650B fork.

    I totally understand the desire to save money, but the fork is a very critical piece of the bike. Also they both have the external travel adjust (Down Low Adjust) DLA.

    Hopefully you hear back from them soon, they have always been quick to respond for me.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by XFusion

    Slant RL2 DLA Specifications

    Travel: 160mm/130mm
    WT. LBS: (APR)4.5(15mm axle, 1 1/8 Steerer)
    WT. Grams: 1995 (15mm axle, 1 1/8 Steerer)
    Spring: Air
    Steerer: Tapered
    Adjustments: Lockout, Rebound, DLA
    Stanchion: 34mm, Gold Hard Ano, Aluminum
    Casting: Magnesium
    Axle: X-15 tool-less axle
    Wheel: 26”
    Colors: White / Black
    Axle to Crown: 545mm @ 160mm
    Max Rotor Size: 203mm

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by XFusion
    Vengeance HLR DLA Specifications

    Travel: 170mm/140mm
    WT. LBS: (APR)5.5(170mm)
    WT. Grams: 2494 (170mm)
    Spring: Air
    Steerer: 1 1/8, Tapered
    Adjustments: Air, Rebound, High and Low Speed Compression, DLA
    Stanchion: 36mm, Gold Hard Ano, Aluminum
    Casting: Magnesium
    Axle: X-20 tool-less axle
    Wheel: 26”, 27.5" (650b)
    Colors: Black, White
    Axle to Crown: 565mm @ 170mm
    Max Rotor Size: 203mm

  • 02-25-2013
    skidad
    X-Fusion stuff can get very confusing and there is NO mention on their web site about the fact that a true 650B Slant (yes, another model) will not be available until mid year release. Nice huh? Or the fact they will have a short travel 120/130mm Slant version, or the fact it's listed as 170mm travel in one spot with an A/C of 545.

    That being said they advise (key word advise) that their 140mm Velvet fork needs a spacer to work with 650B. Guess what, it doesn't. They say the Velvet 140 DLA isn't compatible with 650B but guess what, it works. I'm not gonna advise you that the new Slant (non 650B version) will work with 650B wheels but I'm gonna guess that they will fit easily at the arch and probably be really close to the bottom of the crown at full bottom out, and well, X-Fusion would like to avoid any potential law suits by advising against using it with 650B wheels. Fork isn't even available yet so no way to know. Also, the offset could be optimized for 26" wheels. True 650B fork gets it's own offset just like 29'er forks do. All this may not matter to you as it looks as though there is no compression adjustment besides air pressure which would be to bad IMO. Seems like LOTS of people are waiting for this fork to finally materialize.
  • 02-25-2013
    ironxcross
    Hmm, sounds like I might be pushing another pound up the mountain this season then with the vengeance. No external compression adjustments is enough for me to count the slant out. My last fork was a boxxer with avy cartridge...
  • 02-25-2013
    NoStyle
    Nothing against X-Fusion, but I was after the Slant too. Should have been released in January, now it´s going to be mid Year or later, if the Fork will ever come ...
    As for 650B: Seems like the Slant has to use a Spacer to reduce Travel down to 150 mm. 160 mm full Travel is only with 26ers. But again, that was the Feature almost a Year ago. Nobody knows when this Fork will be available, plus nobody knows the final Features of Damping or Travel-Adjust, so you might look elsewhere ...
  • 02-25-2013
    skidad
    I should have mentioned that the 26" version of the Slant "should be available" any day now. It's the 650B version that will be at least mid year release and I assume cast with different lowers.
  • 02-25-2013
    NoStyle
    Ah ok! My Info was the Slant being compatible for both Wheelsizes, with Spacer for the 650B reducing the Travel to 150 mm. Good Chance I´m wrong here ... :confused:
  • 02-25-2013
    skidad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NoStyle View Post
    Ah ok! My Info was the Slant being compatible for both Wheelsizes, with Spacer for the 650B reducing the Travel to 150 mm. Good Chance I´m wrong here ... :confused:

    Yeah, I believe that was the original info from X-Fusion and also what they tell you to do with the Velvet...even though the spacer is not needed. Now we find out it's gonna be 2 different Slant forks. It's my hunch that the 26" version of the Slant will still fit some (maybe not the tallest?) 650B tires just like some Fox 26" forks do. No way to know yet and I don't know the offset either which I think is important. When I went from my converted 650B Prophet with a std. 26" Fox fork to the Jamis with the 650B Loop fork which had 6mm more offset I couldn't believe how much better and less twitchy the Jamis was even though they both have the same HA. Much easier to ride and make it go where I wanted.