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  1. #1
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    Your Sedona Trail Input Is Important

    In Sedona the Forest Service is in the process of developing a new 10 to 15 year trail management plan that will be part of the overall Coconino Trail Management Plan. At the first meeting there were 70 locals who came to the meeting at the second meeting there were 100 people at the meeting.

    During the meeting it was revealed that there are 4 million people visiting Sedona and 600,000 use the trail system. In one of the group brainstorm sessions some people in the meeting thought that to be fair to the unrepresented visitor group, they should have some input and that paper questionnaires should be handed out at visitor centers and trailheads. Those visitors could fill out and mail (or hopefully email back) their trail suggestion sheet to the RTCA so they could list those recommendations along with the approximate 115 suggestions that we are currently evaluating.

    As a mountain biker I am obviously for the adoption of user built trails that already exist. Some people are for building new trails that might better suit their skill level. I am also for improved signage to allow for the easier navigation of our trail system.

    If you have used the Sedona trail system and have a suggestion I will try and see if it can be added to the current suggestion list. Here is the list of current suggestions:

    Maintenance
    Illegal trails
    Legal trails for all mountain bike abilities
    Access to trails and to unique areas
    Loop trails (Sedona loop trail completed)
    More trails within the village
    Preservation of habitat and water quality
    Sustainability/stewardship, education/awareness, respect/reverence for natural resources
    Trail system connectivity across and within the local and federal jurisdictions
    Advanced ride technical areas with signage to indicate this trail use
    Rate trails for skill level(s)
    Limit number of social trails to reduce calls to Search and Rescue
    Interconnectivity of the trail system
    Well marked routes
    Quality non-system trails included into the FS system
    Safety and stewardship information and education for trails
    Education and signage on who has trail right-of-way (trail etiquette)
    Allow horses on all trails
    Protect slick rock off-trail opportunities
    Create epic experiences and expand trail system by 300%
    Progressive skill opportunities in the system
    Diversity (variety) in style and character of experiences, skill level and length, categorize and sign
    specific trails for specific use and keep them that way
    Preserve what we have and the experience here
    Connect communities through an urban system of safe trails (like the Flagstaff Urban Trails
    System)
    Realign existing trails to sustainable levels
    Purpose built use features
    More and better trails in the Oak Creek area
    Approval process for new trails shortened
    Quality of trails input from users groups to inform about maintenance needs
    More signage
    Expand wilderness trails to connect to system
    Explore ideas for user specific trails
    Motorized use issues should be addressed
    Access and parking for horse trailers
    Wet Beaver Creek trails
    Creativity and flow designed into trails for the rider experience
    Quick turn around on maintenance needs (more volunteers)
    Better promotion for back country horse and hike experiences
    Easy levels of trails to good destinations
    Plan for user groups to help maintain trails
    Preservation and new trails for advanced riders
    Bike skills park/area for new riders of all ages
    Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) trails or segments that at minimum get far enough away
    from parking lot so it can’t be seen
    Horse manure catchments
    Improve parking situation at West Fork and Midgley Bridge
    Allocation of event trails and permit process for group use
    Discussion about skill levels to define skill of trail (need to define skill levels)
    Rehabilitation of damaged trails
    Education about using trails
    Education about various user activities and how to allow safe passage on the trail for various users
    Restrooms at major trailheads
    Neighborhood roads open to access trails (especially for horses)
    Sustainable revenue stream for up keep on over 600,000 trail users per year
    Coordinate with other communities and their trail groups
    Archaeology sites protected
    Designated area for high skills riders
    Leash laws obeyed on trails and dog litter removal by owners
    Protect the “golden goose” (trails and natural resources) of this economy
    Remove/reduce wire baskets with rocks on over defined trails
    Visitors need to be heard in this process
    Indicate where trails are closed for restoration prior to getting there to avoid a dead end trail
    experience
    “Closed unless marked open” policy impacts cross country trails
    Improve sunrise/sunset, hydration and other information for trail users
    Add technical spurs to existing trail system
    Add summit routes
    Define routes into climbing areas
    Mark trails so they are easily recognizable and erase social trails
    Water slide
    Emergency cross country mountain bike closure order
    More people show up to FS trail work days

    Due to the lack of time these were written responses left with the meeting facilitator after the 10/25/12 meeting:

    • Sustainability means stewardship of resources, public education and awareness, and reverence for
    natural resources
    • Better maintenance (rocks and trimming), more education or signage on rights of way
    • Connect the trail networks (W. Sedona, Oak Creek, Village of Oak Creek, Elmerville, 89B, 525C,
    Cornville, Cottonwood…), more Oak Creek trails, more beginner or smooth mountain bike trails
    • Preservation of the wild lands is crucial to the preservation of flora, fauna, and most critical to water
    availability for all, preserve and protect ancient sites
    • Sustainable, expand the system 200% to 300%, utilize terrain to create epic experiences, drive the
    economy
    • I believe horses should be allowed on all trails. They are natural users and in my opinion there has
    never been any problems with others. People are happy to see them always.
    • Make it fun interesting
    • Increase public awareness regarding safety, good stewardship, illegal fire building, other bad
    behaviors
    • Concern: hiking trail users tend to speak to trail use for all (inter-connective, maintenance,
    sustainable, etc.). Biking users tend to speak to their specific biking wants, and there are a
    preponderance of bikers in attendance. We should be careful to reflect a plan that is appropriate for
    all, without leaning towards bikers.

    • A few wide, large (1-5 mile long) trails that can host special events or competitions, trails that
    connect well with a few leading to the City park, some trail availability for group use/economic
    development, hiking trails with higher level of difficulty, climbing
    • Areas for more advanced mountain bikers, designated areas for jumps and technical trails, bikes are
    becoming more advanced and trails are not, please give us an area and we will build, sinage to rate
    trails could be an answer
    • Adopt (as fast as possible) all existing trails which make sense, emphasis on linkage and loops and
    summits, use trained volunteers for maintenance (Adopt-a-trail is good), improve signage including
    rating difficulty, no fees, fully complete and mark and encourage use of Sedona loop trail, get
    commercial benefit ($$$) from organizing a trail run (marathon/half marathon, 5K) in October,
    preservation of Casner Canyon area trails, continue FS-user cooperation
    • More trails, better trails, more people working together
    • Purpose built trails, equality amongst users
    • To have trail systems connect communities through an urban system of safe, well-marked and
    mapped veins, similar to the Flagstaff trail system (FUTS), think about population growth in this
    area in the next 20 years, bike parking, rating would (???), signing it
    • Diverse ability of experience levels from ADA compliant to extreme downhill, diverse ability of
    experience (canyons, ridges, in trees, on rock, opportunities for exploration even off trail (slick
    rock), special event permissible trails
    • Clearly marked sustainable trails that go to or by some of the magnificent scenery we have here,
    I would like to see them marked by grade (i.e. difficulty) so that users could see how challenging
    each trail would be, I would like to see a regular, planned cycle of maintenance, I would like to see
    primitive, raw trails kept that way
    • Have as many different types of sustainable trails available for a range of possible experiences for
    all skill and fitness levels of each user group, and a trail that goes anywhere any of these various
    users may want or need to travel, and to have the entire network adequately signed and mapped
    • Bike access in wilderness, diapers on horses
    • Removal/reduction or minimize ridiculous, large numbers and dangerous wire baskets full of rocks
    • More trails and a coherent, timely way to get trails built
    • Ongoing maintenance and repair, adopt-a-trail program, ability to make enhancements and additions
    to system trails, network of communication between trail users and trail information, create new and
    preserve Red Rock trails and experience, cooperative management, collaborative trail management
    and maintenance, preservation and enhancement of trails and experience
    • Multiple use, area loop, region connectivity
    • Better maintenance, no illegal trail building
    • Healthy ecosystems and less off-trail/social trails, education, rehabilitation
    • Complementary trail system and amenities through the range of jurisdictions (NF, state parks,
    city), emphasize linkages and loop design, water quality protection by best management practices
    (BMPs), maintenance, toiles, pet waste stations, diversity of trail options that fit most user group
    profiles, buffer water sources, roost and nest sites, sensitive soils (mycorrhizal) and rare plants,
    match level of service design to intensity of use and focus user group
    • Ceiling on use on high-demand trails, as needed
    • Something for everyone, continuously connect parts of town
    • Beginner single track and rock for youth, maintenance

    • Comprehensive planning, trail progression easy to difficult, multi-use, single use, creative,
    sustainable, fun trails, controlling social trails, maintenance plan, Turkey Creek area development,
    reasonable permitting process for group use
    • More expert level trails for biking, better promotion of back country wilderness for hiking and
    horseback riding/tourists, quick turn-around for volunteer trail maintenance, trails rating system like
    ski mountain, mountain bike specific trails
    • More trails to lessen the trail use on all trails, rating the trails for skill level, more advanced
    mountain bike trails to challenge the cyclists, an urban trail loop linking all of the Sedona areas –
    paved as found in a lot of the mountain towns in Colorado, advanced mountain bikes prefer narrow
    technical trails, bike park/skills honing, dirt jumps, mountain bike events
    • User specific trails, hikers and equestrian make better use and care of wilderness, front country
    oriented to mountain bikes, more expert level/downhill/freeride mountain bike, FS needs to be
    more accommodating to mountain bikers, FS needs to be even-handed in dealing with social trails,
    motorized plan?, appropriate areas/trails for OHV/ATV use, freeride park
    • More wilderness trails, more backpacking trails, more water availability along trailhead starts,
    receptacles increased in high use areas and greater signage
    • Better wilderness boundary markings, “Bell Rock Pathway” for West Sedona, easy trail access from
    town, trail maintenance, advanced trails for advanced riders, bike park
    • Sustainable, beautiful, accessible, compatible with the environment, cared for
    • Existing trails with poor alignments requiring significant work are rerouted, consistent style and
    difficulty within a trail
    • Wide variety of types of trails (narrow, technical, steep, easy, challenging, ADA accessible), a trail
    grade system so people don’t go on a trail beyond their abilities, planned maintenance and ways to
    help, way(s) to hold events
    • FS trail riding and technique videos, riding clinics, trail stewards to maintain trails, trail map(s)
    sales to support trail care, local fundraising for trails, if Casner Canyon is unridable then trails
    south of Mitten Ridge, like upper Munds to Cow Pies, Hangover area needs nested loop of trails
    well signed and managed, current best advanced rides are on Schnebly Rd to Casner Canyon to
    Tomahawk to Killer Bee to Damfino to Hangover Saddle to Hangover to Munds Wagon, similar
    terrain as Hangover trail, up to 4-5 hour rides, more than 13 mile, advanced to expert rides in
    Schnebly Hill and Mitten Ridge areas, active community involvement in trail management, new
    development to meet needs of mountain biking (technical, creative, single track),well thought out
    system with character, different experiences
    • Mapped and signed trail system which benefits local residents and businesses, an adopted trail
    network for all abilities of mountain bikes, no more illegal trail building
    • Inclusion of quality non-system (user built) trails into system, preservation of technical nature of
    technical trails, development of easier trails for beginner level users, connections at key geographic
    points to have continuity, trails built sustainably so that they require less maintenance, mulit-
    user capable trails not exclusive or dangerous/hazardous, well signed, rated so visitors can decide
    suitability, dispersion of users via volume and variety of trails, technical off-shoots/options,
    • Trails built with sustainability in mind, not every trail needs to support all users, high level
    mountain bike trails, a trail system for all users that lets a beginner begin happily and progress to
    any level of that experience, flow trails, stacked loop systems
    • Sustainability, mulit-use, graded for level of difficulty
    • Upgrade for all user groups, connectability, understand group desires
    • Usable trailheads for equestrians, interconnected trails
    • More trails in the village, more loop trails, greater access, better maintenance

  2. #2
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    Too long, didn't read.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  3. #3
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    Holy sh!t, you're going to crush them with all those suggestions. TL;DR! I'm not sure if it's possible, but maybe you could try and group some of them together?

    Off the top of my head, and as someone who just visited here's a few suggestions:

    - more/better signage at intersections
    - better trail map. South Mountain has a great trail map that we found very handy in planning our "get off the plane, build bike, ride before driving to Sedona" ride.

    otherwise, good job! we loved our trip there.
    continuous growth is the strategy of a cancer cell.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    ...
    Mark trails so they are easily recognizable and erase social trails
    Water slide
    Emergency cross country mountain bike closure order
    ...
    I think we found the top priority. I vote instead of obliterating tomahawk we turn it into a huge water slide.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Chainslap- View Post
    I think we found the top priority. I vote instead of obliterating tomahawk we turn it into a huge water slide.
    CS:

    So are you seriously for adopting Tomahawk for hiking and mountain biking. A water slide is never going to happen?

    TD

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Too long, didn't read.
    M:

    Could you do me a favor and revise my initial post so viewers like you would give a thoughtful response?

    Thanks

    TD

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    CS:

    So are you seriously for adopting Tomahawk for hiking and mountain biking. A water slide is never going to happen?

    TD
    I think the idea is money. You could bus the hoards of Pink jeepers to that start of tomahawk and take a water slide all the way to to Oak Creek!

    Last I read tomahawk was on the chopping block anyways? Have I missed some new info?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Chainslap- View Post
    I think the idea is money. You could bus the hoards of Pink jeepers to that start of tomahawk and take a water slide all the way to to Oak Creek!

    Last I read tomahawk was on the chopping block anyways? Have I missed some new info?
    Tomahawk is on the chopping block because when Sedona got it's wilderness boundaries implemented the Tomahawk area was left out of the wilderness designation.
    So somebody came up with the idea to call it an AZ Cypress study area so roads, buildings and trail could possibly not be built there. There could possibly be exceptions, but the wordage in the governing document was to limit those items.

    Since the inception of the original designation the FS has not done any studying of the AZ Cypress in that area, so it is the thought by people who recreate in that area that the study process isn't important because there has been no studying of the trees.

    The logic is that if the FS has done no studies since the inception of the study maybe there should be a new NEPA done to see if the trail system that has been in existence for more than ten years should be adopted for recreational opportunities.

    If you can find something wrong with that logic call the FS and give them some help.

    The FS claims they knew nothing about the trails in that area. Even though their was an article in the local paper stating what a great trail the FS had added to the trail system called Damifino.

    The article was written based on information conveyed by the Westerner Hiking Club who are the most prestigious hiking club in Sedona, and have a permit from the FS to do hikes in the surrounding Sedona area.

    Hope that helps

    TD

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    leash laws? Man I hate that. It sucks that our local forests are being influenced by folks with a more urban mentality. I need to start moving around more.

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    That list is ridiculous TD. I would suggest the people at the meeting pick the 'top ten issues for mt bikers', put it up on the web, and have us, the users, vote on what we would like to see. A more focused approach, say on the top three issues, would be more productive, particularly given finite resources. Sedona needs a strategy, not just a list of ideas. That being said, riding in Sedona now is 100 times better that it was a decade ago. More trails, more variety, better signage, etc. Some of that, despite what some may say, is due to you and others who are passionate about mt biking and it is definitely appreciated. Some of your posts on the other hand . . .

  11. #11
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    I just want a public Turkish bath house. Barring that, a shower house. Insert eight quarters, get two minutes of hot water.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phatass View Post
    That list is ridiculous TD. I would suggest the people at the meeting pick the 'top ten issues for mt bikers', put it up on the web, and have us, the users, vote on what we would like to see. A more focused approach, say on the top three issues, would be more productive, particularly given finite resources. Sedona needs a strategy, not just a list of ideas. That being said, riding in Sedona now is 100 times better that it was a decade ago. More trails, more variety, better signage, etc. Some of that, despite what some may say, is due to you and others who are passionate about mt biking and it is definitely appreciated. Some of your posts on the other hand . . .
    +1 Lists of 500 things that need to be done slows the process down. Not every cause needs to be fought for, pick and choose the battles that are truly worth fighting. The rest is a waste of time for all involved in the process.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy_E View Post
    I just want a public Turkish bath house. Barring that, a shower house. Insert eight quarters, get two minutes of hot water.
    Honestly one of the bike shops in town needs to have some quarter showers, I think it would bring a lot of people into their shop who had no intensions of buying a pair of socks or shop t shirt but after taking a refreshing hot shower after a sick ride just can't help themselves. Seems like a no brainer to me.

  14. #14
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    Having New Mountaing Biking Trails Is NOT a BAD Thing

    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    +1 Lists of 500 things that need to be done slows the process down. Not every cause needs to be fought for, pick and choose the battles that are truly worth fighting. The rest is a waste of time for all involved in the process.
    Woahey:

    I don't think I saw you at the last meeting. I love to quiz you as you know. I checked my paper work and I will be allowed back into the Forest tomorrow. I asked Mike O'Neil if he would ride with me and he said he would let me know.

    I know Mike is coming to the meetings to help with the process. I think he was frustrated with the 11/29 meeting. For me personally, it was both frustrating and productive. I met some new people there I hope to recreate with in the future. Heather was upset I brought up the Adopt-a-Trail program with the group I was told to sit with. I didn't see any smiles on Jennifer or Heather face the whole meeting.

    I think it would be good for mountain bikers to team up with the hiking community and work towards common goals. I feel sorry for the equestrian community. They are a dying breed and since their horses destroy trails they need there own trails, I doubt the FS is going to give them.

    They certainly don't like all the user built trails out in the Western Civ area. Even though there are tons of trails out there perfectly suited for their needs, they want to have all the newly adopted trail made multi-use. For some reason they don't understand they can't be safe on trails like Hangover and Highline and there is no way to modify the trail for their use.

    Since those trails were built for zero tax dollars the FS can legitimately say sorry these trails are only suitable for mountain bikers and hikers. In fact they are some of the best hiking and mountain biking trails in the country.

    What do you think should be the main topics at the next meeting? How many of the attendees will sign up for the Adopt-a-Trail program? I would like to see better signage as on new system trails. I would also like to see how many new miles the FS is looking to add in the next 10 to 15 years. and what level of rider the trail will serve.

    Oh by the way the some of the hikers think giving trails a rating is a waste of time. You better attend the upcoming meetings to make sure that suggestion doesn't die

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phatass View Post
    That list is ridiculous TD. I would suggest the people at the meeting pick the 'top ten issues for mt bikers', put it up on the web, and have us, the users, vote on what we would like to see. Some of your posts on the other hand . . .
    Phat:

    The mistake I make is I leave to too open for too much miscommunication.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    M:

    Could you do me a favor and revise my initial post so viewers like you would give a thoughtful response?

    Thanks

    TD
    I did you a favor already, prepared you for their response.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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