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  1. #1
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    Will the Sedona Red Rock News be FAIR & BALANCED like Fox News????

    I assume the Red Rock News will be doing an article on my really well done trail improvement on the Tea Cup trail from the official Forest Service position. Their position will be, no well intentioned very experienced old guy who has done hundreds of hours of sanctioned FS trail projects on the same trail previously can do a one foot by four foot project without having the same volunteer agreement that Plumber Phil has with the FS.

    You can't tell me that Phil has spent thousands of hours working for Jennifer and during those thousands of hours he didn't spend 15 minutes fixing a small section of trail that made for an improved user experience.

    Let's have Jennifer and Phil share with us the wordage on Phil's volunteer agreement so we all have a better idea if we work for the FS as a volunteer what our volunteer agreement should say.

    Dear Editor:

    You may have received some information from the Forest Service regarding a trail improvement I was recently cited for doing on the Tea Cup trail. The citation resulted in me receiving a $1,000 dollar fine and six month ban from the Northern Arizona Forest. The reason for the fine is that I did not obtain the appropriate permits to complete the one foot by four foot trail improvement. The actual improvement was completed to the new Sedona trail building standard developed by Plumber Phil and Jennifer Burns from the Red Rock Ranger District.

    I have been working with Phil and Jennifer over the last three years working on new trails, adopting trails, trail improvements, trail re-routes and trail reconstruction due to severe flooding.

    Even though I had completed a huge approved re-routing project on the Tea Cup trail previously the law enforcement arm of the Forest Service believed I did not have permission to do the well constructed repair, so they cited me to let other well intended FS volunteers and others know good intended excellent trail improvements are considered illegal and subject to a fine and restitution.

    Due to my age I have decided to take early retirement from the Forest Service volunteer crew and concentrate on other hobbies. My wife and I will be taking a five month motor home adventure to enjoy some of America's most wonderful mountain biking trails.

    Here is a video link () of the trail segment I did the work on so viewers can see where I did the work when they either ride or hike the trail. Ranger Mike O'Neil from the Red Rock Ranger District who actually cited me is an advanced mountain biker and he told me that my trail improvement has allowed him to ride that section of trail where in previous rides he had to walk that section.

    I am very proud of the quality of my work I have done for the Forest Service the last three years. The lesson to be learned is if you are an old and experienced volunteer FS trail maintenance person like myself, don't assume you can take iniative and do work for the Forest Service because they don't have the budget to do these worthy repairs. If you are going to help the Forest Service you need to go through all the necessary paper work to not be subject to a fine and banning of the forest. Good intentions don't mean anything when it comes to doing trail maintenance work even though your work is as good or better than the person who is getting paid to do it.

    Like Jennifer's friend Phil who has been doing thousands of hours of volunteer work for the FS over the last three years, if I had to do it over again I would have required the FS to give me the same Volunteer Agreement Phil has with the FS, so if I were to do future trail repairs I would have a very comprehensive agreement wordage to protect me when I took the imitative to do well intended projects to save taxpayer dollars and give trail users a better riding or hiking experience.

    Sincerely,

    John Finch


    This is an email I just got from an old friend who retired and got out of California and moved to North Carolina. He and I use to work together on trail projects for the city of Belmont. At Water Dog I could have done a one foot by four foot trail improvement with out having to get the appropriate paperwork because the land manager didn't have to follow a congressional mandate, that some people who have the special volunteer agreement wordage can bypass.


    Email From an Old Trail Building Buddy

    John,
    I'm sorry your work wasn't appreciated. The fine is bad enough, but being banned from the forest for 6 months has got to be truly painful. Like having your babies taken away from you, My sincere sympathies.
    I just got back from a trail dedication ceremony attended by the mayor, the Director of Parks & Rec and several other local dignitaries & community members. While the primary purpose of the ceremony was to open the trail, I was presented with a plaque from the FFA, granting me an honorary degree recognizing my time & effort working with the high school kids on the project. One of the other people recognized was a student, Laura, who I worked with closely. She described the technique I had taught them that I learned while working @ Water Dog. To hear her describe what I had taught, and to know she "got it" and will continue to use it & likely teach it to others in the future, really made my day, far more than the plaque.
    Be well, I hope you find great riding in the next 6 months,
    Berry

    A thought from TD after reading the email from my friend Berry:

    I wonder if the Red Rock Ranger District will ever give Phil and Jennifer a plaque of recognition for all their hard work for making Sedona a better place to recreate? If it is a matter of a lack of funding for the plaque, I will offer to pay for it, if Heather will authorize it, and I propose it can be presented at the highpoint of Highline when that trail is finely adopted.

    In Whistler the plaque could be presented at the top of the Peak chair. In Sedona it won't happen because ????????????????????????????????????????????????

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 06-06-2012 at 02:00 PM.

  2. #2
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    Will TD take advantage of his forced break and post more about the awesome rides he's getting in instead of trying to burn bridges?

    TD, enjoy the retirement. Hopefully the trails will be in decent shape when you get your tools back. Don't ruin it for the rest of us...please.
    Last edited by Casual Observer; 06-06-2012 at 02:11 PM.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Will TD take advantage of his force break and post more about the awesome rides he's getting in instead of trying to burn bridges?

    TD, enjoy the retirement. Hopefully the trails will be in decent shape when you get your tools back. Don't ruin it for the rest of us...please.
    CO:

    I am not trying to burn bridges I am trying to show how one place can embrace the efforts of a group of dedicated volunteers and another is afraid to tell the public of their efforts since a small group of people HATE the good work they are doing. Jennifer and Phil should be getting a plaque every week for their efforts, but in Sedona there is a small group of individuals who hate the work they are doing. They claim it is extreme resource damage or better yet archeological damage to a site that will be cataloged, but never researched.

    I would appreciate the Red Rock Ranger Office showing the recreating public one significant archeological site that they have cataloged while doing the current adoption process. Where after finding the site a researcher has gone out and actually researched the site and come up with something of historical significance. Is that too difficult of a request? I am certainly interested in knowing what they have found out. You certainly can't find anything on Google for those yellow flagged spots. Will they ever be researched or even considered significant enough to spend the time and money to write a paper on them of historical significance?

    I talked to the local Native American Indian imposter and he said the local tribes are more interested in their casinos then they are in those recently yellow flagged sites. It's too bad so much money has to be spent on something most Indians could care less about. Our great well intended government thinks it is important, but at this time of extremely crippling debt can we afford it when it seems nothing of real significance is currently being learned? Where does an old guy like me go to find out what new is currently being learned about southwest American history that wasn't known previously?

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 06-06-2012 at 02:42 PM.

  4. #4
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    archaeological damage from trailbuilding?

    Al Gore would call it global berming...

  5. #5
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    Don't blame me. Last time I voted for Jerry Brown for President!!!!!

    All I'm saying it, how about you let it die down a bit, maybe even grovel some, and when the 6 months is up, you revisit? Maybe in the meantime, you work with the majority of Native Americans to prove your claim that they don't care about artifacts, etc.

    Have a drink on me Friday!
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  6. #6
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    TD:

    My dad's entire career (after serving in Vietnam from the draft) was Forest Service law enforcement - I have heard countless stories he has been involved with (WA, CA, OR, ID, MT, AK, AZ & probably other places). I agree that some stuff in the FS is silly. We are a very litigious society anymore. From growing up in that environment and hearing your rants it is very amusing. I mean, you have to really F-up to be cited. That is amusing just by itself but beyond that is the ego (like Limbaugh) to actually pull off the narcissistic posting and dribble for "entertainment".

    +1 kewl point for breaking the law and getting the street (or trail) cred - I am entertained
    +1 kewl point for pulling off all the drama - I am entertained

    Take those 2 valuable kewl points with you on your hiatus. Take all that passion and go ride, hang with the wife, partake, and burn off that extra energy...bring back ride reports, fresh perspectives, post pics, and tell stories...or not.

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=Casual Observer;9385155]Don't blame me. Last time I voted for Jerry Brown for President!!!!!

    All I'm saying it, how about you let it die down a bit, maybe even grovel some, and when the 6 months is up, you revisit? Maybe in the meantime, you work with the majority of Native Americans to prove your claim that they don't care about artifacts, etc.

    Have a drink on me Friday![/QUOTE
    CO:

    I loved Jerry Brown as mayor of Oakland. He wanted to have military schools to give the youth of Oakland a better chance to get a decent education. People hated him for that, like according to Phil there are a number of Sedoan mountain bikers who hate me for those well constructed trail improvements to give the masses a better user experience. Don't worry I am not doing anymore trail improvements, I have been cured of that worthy cause.

    I met with Phil recently and he told me about all those TD haters that don't like me for sharing our wonderful Sedona trails with the masses. He says I have let the FS know where all the cool trails are to ride and without me having done my comprehensive maps the FS would be clueless about trails like Gunslinger, Christmas Wash and Damifino. That is hard for me to believe but it may be true due to all the internet Intel being available over the net.

    He also asked me "who has the right decide"? This is a big subject that the FS is wrestling with, with the mountain bike community. Phil has done thousands of hours of volunteer work for the FS, therefore I am for Phil being the guy who decides where a new trail or trail improvement goes in. After all if someone else decides on a different spot for a trail or trail improvement are they going to expect Phil to build the trail they want because they don't have the skills to do all the heavy lifting? It's more enjoyable building your own trail improvement than someone elses idea.

    The other problem is that Phil is only a volunteer worker so does have the right to tell the FS employees where he wants a trail improvement or new trail to go? That really been a slippery slope. How is it that Phil knows more about trail building then any other person at the FS??? He with the help of Jennifer came up with the new Sedona build technique that I fully support.

    When we first built the Aeria trail it was discussed how to more efficiently build the trail. I came up with the idea of riding the trail in at the end of each day during periods there was moisture still present in the soil. This was a technique never considered by the FS and is now a major technique of the Sedona syle of trail building. As long as the initial trail was built to a safe standard prior to riding it, why not let the experienced bike riding group ride in a freshly cut trail to compact the newly completed trail tread?

    Also part of the technique is initially leaving the brush very narrow to keep riders on the minimalist built trail that is left for mountain bikers to ride the trail into a completed state. After the trail tread is established I contended that the brush could be widened to improve the user experience. Phil and Jennifer are totally opposed to additional brushing, so the new Sedona trail building manual has a maximun limit of 34". It is felt tighter brush will slow riders down, so that is the current accepted protocol even though there could be line of site issues with oncoming riders.

    I am not sure what the maximum height limit is for brushing especially when equestrians will be using the trail. The equestrians are not going to be happy with limbs that will cause them to make major ducking while doing there ride.

    I as a mountain biker I don't want equestrians on mountain bike and hiking trails because they tear up the trailtread so much, but I do recognize they are entitled to a safe riding experience so I am not sure what height limit has been established.

    There are a number of trees with lower branches that have been butchered by someone who isn't happy with the low brush method. Why a mountain biker or hiker would cut down lower hanging brush that doesn't impede their travel is somewhat of a mystery. Since there is horse manure and hoof prints on the trail where the lower branches are cut on might think an equestrian may have felt their user experience was being disregarded and they might feel justified cutting an unsafe branch impeding their ride.

    For creating this new Sedona trail building manual I believe Jennifer and Phil have moved Sedona trail building forward and I totally support what they are trying to do with that type of building. Do others totally support those techniques I think the jury is out on that since it bucks years of building being done a different way.

    TD

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=traildoc;9385391]
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Don't blame me. Last time I voted for Jerry Brown for President!!!!!

    All I'm saying it, how about you let it die down a bit, maybe even grovel some, and when the 6 months is up, you revisit? Maybe in the meantime, you work with the majority of Native Americans to prove your claim that they don't care about artifacts, etc.

    Have a drink on me Friday![/QUOTE
    CO:

    I loved Jerry Brown as mayor of Oakland. He wanted to have military schools to give the youth of Oakland a better chance to get a decent education. People hated him for that, like according to Phil there are a number of Sedoan mountain bikers who hate me for those well constructed trail improvements to give the masses a better user experience. Don't worry I am not doing anymore trail improvements, I have been cured of that worthy cause.

    I met with Phil recently and he told me about all those TD haters that don't like me for sharing our wonderful Sedona trails with the masses. He says I have let the FS know where all the cool trails are to ride and without me having done my comprehensive maps the FS would be clueless about trails like Gunslinger, Christmas Wash and Damifino. That is hard for me to believe but it may be true due to all the internet Intel being available over the net.

    He also asked me "who has the right decide"? This is a big subject that the FS is wrestling with, with the mountain bike community. Phil has done thousands of hours of volunteer work for the FS, therefore I am for Phil being the guy who decides where a new trail or trail improvement goes in. After all if someone else decides on a different spot for a trail or trail improvement are they going to expect Phil to build the trail they want because they don't have the skills to do all the heavy lifting? It's more enjoyable building your own trail improvement than someone elses idea.

    The other problem is that Phil is only a volunteer worker so does have the right to tell the FS employees where he wants a trail improvement or new trail to go? That really been a slippery slope. How is it that Phil knows more about trail building then any other person at the FS??? He with the help of Jennifer came up with the new Sedona build technique that I fully support.

    When we first built the Aeria trail it was discussed how to more efficiently build the trail. I came up with the idea of riding the trail in at the end of each day during periods there was moisture still present in the soil. This was a technique never considered by the FS and is now a major technique of the Sedona syle of trail building. As long as the initial trail was built to a safe standard prior to riding it, why not let the experienced bike riding group ride in a freshly cut trail to compact the newly completed trail tread?

    Also part of the technique is initially leaving the brush very narrow to keep riders on the minimalist built trail that is left for mountain bikers to ride the trail into a completed state. After the trail tread is established I contended that the brush could be widened to improve the user experience. Phil and Jennifer are totally opposed to additional brushing, so the new Sedona trail building manual has a maximun limit of 34". It is felt tighter brush will slow riders down, so that is the current accepted protocol even though there could be line of site issues with oncoming riders.

    I am not sure what the maximum height limit is for brushing especially when equestrians will be using the trail. The equestrians are not going to be happy with limbs that will cause them to make major ducking while doing there ride.

    I as a mountain biker I don't want equestrians on mountain bike and hiking trails because they tear up the trailtread so much, but I do recognize they are entitled to a safe riding experience so I am not sure what height limit has been established.

    There are a number of trees with lower branches that have been butchered by someone who isn't happy with the low brush method. Why a mountain biker or hiker would cut down lower hanging brush that doesn't impede their travel is somewhat of a mystery. Since there is horse manure and hoof prints on the trail where the lower branches are cut on might think an equestrian may have felt their user experience was being disregarded and they might feel justified cutting an unsafe branch impeding their ride.

    For creating this new Sedona trail building manual I believe Jennifer and Phil have moved Sedona trail building forward and I totally support what they are trying to do with that type of building. Do others totally support those techniques I think the jury is out on that since it bucks years of building being done a different way.

    TD
    Sorry TD, I can't read all this.

    Good luck and have fun on vacation.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  9. #9
    Meatbomb
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    Dude.. You are a long winded Drama Queen...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dragon View Post
    TD:

    My dad's entire career (after serving in Vietnam from the draft) was Forest Service law enforcement - I have heard countless stories he has been involved with (WA, CA, OR, ID, MT, AK, AZ & probably other places). I agree that some stuff in the FS is silly. We are a very litigious society anymore. From growing up in that environment and hearing your rants it is very amusing. I mean, you have to really F-up to be cited. That is amusing just by itself but beyond that is the ego (like Limbaugh) to actually pull off the narcissistic posting and dribble for "entertainment".

    +1 kewl point for breaking the law and getting the street (or trail) cred - I am entertained
    +1 kewl point for pulling off all the drama - I am entertained

    Take those 2 valuable kewl points with you on your hiatus. Take all that passion and go ride, hang with the wife, partake, and burn off that extra energy...bring back ride reports, fresh perspectives, post pics, and tell stories...or not.
    d:

    Thanks for your insight from your point of view. I will take your advice and stop the Rush Limbaugh style of trying to put a positive spin on the work I did on Tea Cup.
    I have recently found out dragging a small fallen tree off a trail is illegal and subject to citation. If you came across such a tree that was impeding a trail what would be the technique you would use to address the tree being in the trail blocking traffic?

    TD

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    If you came across such a tree that was impeding a trail what would be the technique you would use to address the tree being in the trail blocking traffic?

    TD
    Bunny hop...
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    If you came across such a tree that was impeding a trail what would be the technique you would use to address the tree being in the trail blocking traffic?

    TD
    OOOHHHH....OOOHHH...OOOHHH...PICK ME...PICK ME...I KNOW...I KNOW!!! (raising hand jumping around like a 3rd grader high on pixie stix)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsittman View Post
    OOOHHHH....OOOHHH...OOOHHH...PICK ME...PICK ME...I KNOW...I KNOW!!! (raising hand jumping around like a 3rd grader high on pixie stix)
    OK Dig D What Would You DO??????????????????????

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsittman View Post
    OOOHHHH....OOOHHH...OOOHHH...PICK ME...PICK ME...I KNOW...I KNOW!!! (raising hand jumping around like a 3rd grader high on pixie stix)
    Arnold Horshack.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  15. #15
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    I highly doubt it was "dragging a small fallen tree off a trail is illegal and subject to citation" that got you into the trouble you are in.

    Your god complex will continue to cause you problems.

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    + 1 on the bunny hop!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    d:

    Thanks for your insight from your point of view. I will take your advice and stop the Rush Limbaugh style of trying to put a positive spin on the work I did on Tea Cup.
    I have recently found out dragging a small fallen tree off a trail is illegal and subject to citation. If you came across such a tree that was impeding a trail what would be the technique you would use to address the tree being in the trail blocking traffic?
    TD
    You recently found that out? Okay, let's get this out of the way now so you cannot play the "ignorance line" with "Smokey Bear" and/or "Woodsy Owl"...the below is for you. Your welcome.

    [Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 36, Volume 2, Parts 200 to 299]
    [Revised as of July 1, 1998]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 36CFR261.20]

    [Page 341]

    TITLE 36--PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY

    CHAPTER II--FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

    PART 261--PROHIBITIONS--Table of Contents

    Subpart A--General Prohibitions

    Sec. 261.20 Unauthorized use of ``Smokey Bear'' and ``Woodsy Owl'' symbol.

    (a) Manufacture, importation, reproduction, or use of ``Smokey
    Bear'' except as provided under Secs. 271.2, 271.3, or 271.4 is
    prohibited.
    (b) Manufacture, importation, reproduction, or use of ``Woodsy Owl''
    except as provided under Secs. 272.2, 272.3, or 272.4 is prohibited.
    [42 FR 2957, Jan. 14, 1977; 42 FR 24739, May 16, 1977]

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    I highly doubt it was "dragging a small fallen tree off a trail is illegal and subject to citation" that got you into the trouble you are in.

    Your god complex will continue to cause you problems.
    + 1. I bet none of this would have happened if TD just went about his business. But he had to try and show up the FS and others and it bit him in the A$$. You reap what you sow.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dragon View Post
    You recently found that out? Okay, let's get this out of the way now so you cannot play the "ignorance line" with "Smokey Bear" and/or "Woodsy Owl"...the below is for you. Your welcome.

    [Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 36, Volume 2, Parts 200 to 299]
    [Revised as of July 1, 1998]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 36CFR261.20]

    [Page 341]

    TITLE 36--PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY

    CHAPTER II--FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

    PART 261--PROHIBITIONS--Table of Contents

    Subpart A--General Prohibitions

    Sec. 261.20 Unauthorized use of ``Smokey Bear'' and ``Woodsy Owl'' symbol.

    (a) Manufacture, importation, reproduction, or use of ``Smokey
    Bear'' except as provided under Secs. 271.2, 271.3, or 271.4 is
    prohibited.
    (b) Manufacture, importation, reproduction, or use of ``Woodsy Owl''
    except as provided under Secs. 272.2, 272.3, or 272.4 is prohibited.
    [42 FR 2957, Jan. 14, 1977; 42 FR 24739, May 16, 1977]
    I was aware of the Smokey the Bear Issue, the Woodsy Owl situation is new to me.

    TD

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    + 1. I bet none of this would have happened if TD just went about his business. But he had to try and show up the FS and others and it bit him in the A$$. You reap what you sow.
    Not so much what he sows... he's a drama queen like an ex wife.

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    Man if you spent half the time doing the paper work and getting the approval that is required of everyone rather then *****in and moaning about it on here, this would not be a problem would it?

    YOUR NOT ABOVE THE LAW GET OVER IT.....
    and the lurker returns to the dark corner

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    d:

    Thanks for your insight from your point of view. I will take your advice and stop the Rush Limbaugh style of trying to put a positive spin on the work I did on Tea Cup.
    I have recently found out dragging a small fallen tree off a trail is illegal and subject to citation. If you came across such a tree that was impeding a trail what would be the technique you would use to address the tree being in the trail blocking traffic?

    TD
    Well then maybe if you were to move that tree you might not want to talk about it on the internet? Just a thought.......

  23. #23
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    Trail Dik

    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I assume .......

    blah blah blah

    ???????

    TD

    WAY tl:dr

    Cliff's Notes version please?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Well then maybe if you were to move that tree you might not want to talk about it on the internet? Just a thought.......
    This! ^
    Last edited by FMX_DBC; 06-07-2012 at 08:09 AM.

  25. #25
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    Upset

    Way to kick a guy when he's down

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Way to kick a guy when he's down
    Hopefully he will learn something from this. I can recall many members here saying, just go about your business and stop posting about it on MTBR months ago. TD seemed to want to show up the FS and this was the result. Can't kick a dog every night and not expect to be bitten.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  27. #27
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    Self inflicted wounds won't garner much sympathy from most.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Self inflicted wounds won't garner much sympathy from most.
    Maybe so but we all have a passion for trails or we wouldn't be killing so much time here. So, we have that in common. You may not agree with his methods or style but he's touched more tread in more states than all memebers of the AZ forum combined.

    I suggest the mean-spirited comments cease and try to keep things positive if you have something to say. Otherwise, some of the comments on here sound pretty juvenile to me.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttocs View Post
    Man if you spent half the time doing the paper work and getting the approval that is required of everyone rather then *****in and moaning about it on here, this would not be a problem would it?

    YOUR NOT ABOVE THE LAW GET OVER IT.....
    t:

    What you don't understand is I did have paperwork to do the work. Here is the first of three videos ( of the other Tea Cup work that I had done on that trail which I could have used as my defense. I could have spent $10,000 or $20,000 proving I had permission to do that one foot by four foot project, but I would rather pay a $1,000 fine which supposedly is going directly to the Red Rock Ranger District then the $10,000 to $20,000 proving I had as much permission as another volunteer worker who had done many projects like that one.

    Once again this whole problem that the FS has with volunteers working for them comes from this whole congressional mandate thing of protecting the substantial archeological sites.

    Jennifer Burns can not get her inside FS archeologists to do the leg work and paper work on her new trail and trail adoption program because they say they are too busy on other more important projects. So she has to hire an independent contractor to do the work. That independent contractor is Bill Stafford who use to have Jennifer's job.

    Bill is doing all of us a great favor by picking up the ball where Jennifer's employees say they don't have time to help her. Bill is another person who needs an appreciation plaque for doing all his work to get the paperwork done to satisfy the congressional mandate. Without Bill, Jennifer would be screwed unless there was someone else local who was qualified to do the leg work and paper processing for a reasonable fee.

    If there was no congressional mandate then like my buddy Byron in Lake Shasta who is an experienced Enhancement Specialist you could come to agreements much easier and get trails built without all the mandate hassle.

    This is another Reality Distortion Field issue that the FS is having to wrestle with. What experienced volunteer Enhancement Specialist is going to want to stick their neck out and be subject to a citation and $1,000 fine when they are doing the work for free and others are being paid.

    Because Plumber Phil has a mental defect that drives him to neglect his business and work his butt off for Jennifer for free is not a normal situation. Plumber Phil is not a narcissist like me and he only monitors MTBR he does not post so we have no clue what his motivation is to work for thousands of hours for free.

    At least Bill Stafford is getting paid for his work. At $75 for plumbing fees that means Phil has given up $75,000 to help Jennifer make Sedona a much better place to recreate. What MTBR viewer would be willing to donate $75,000 of their time busting their butt moving tons of dirt and huge rocks around? No wonder Phil wears a back support.

    I really feel Phil is reaching the end of the line though. His body is not going to be able take this abuse forever. He probably wants to be more in the "who gets to decide" position. He has earned the right to be there and I would support it totally, if I still worked as a volunteer FS trail enhancer.

    I know several good Trail Enhancers in Sedona that just are interested in putting their neck on the line working their butts off as FS volunteers for no pay. If they do work in the future they hopefully will get the same wordage on their volunteer form the Phil has on his.

    One thing I learned from a friend who got me the position of a volunteer trail enhancer at Water Dog in Belmont, there might be discrimination if the FS is protecting Phil more on FS volunteer work and are not doing the same for other hard working experienced volunteers like Chalpaw. I won't go into the details but Chalpaw understands he is at risk when working on authorized FS volunteer projects he dodged the bullet recently.

    He is also an example of someone who is also doing good volunteer work for the FS and worked with me on the huge Tea Cup re-route. Because of my being cited he is trying to get the FS to develop a new volunteer program that all these concerns can be addressed and fixed. Hopefully he will be successful, but it will not be a slam dunk, that I will bet you.

    TD

    TD

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    Fox News is FAIR & BALANCED?

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    Bill, have you read the Monkey Wrench Gang?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    t:

    What you don't understand is I did have paperwork to do the work. Here is the first of three videos ( of the other Tea Cup work that I had done on that trail which I could have used as my defense. I could have spent $10,000 or $20,000 proving I had permission to do that one foot by four foot project, but I would rather pay a $1,000 fine which supposedly is going directly to the Red Rock Ranger District then the $10,000 to $20,000 proving I had as much permission as another volunteer worker who had done many projects like that one.
    dry this out and spread it on the trails and they would all turn green. Now you even had permission to do the work and it would just be too expensive to prove it?! Its normally not that hard to come up with the required paperwork when asked......
    and the lurker returns to the dark corner

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Otherwise, some of the comments on here sound pretty juvenile to me.
    Agreed. As well as berating the Red Rock Forrest Service by the OP. It's obvious he has an agenda. Which is showing up these people and their process as much as he can. Simply because he does not agree with it. Same as altering trails to fit his need or perception on what is right.

    Passion is good. But from an outside view. This is much more then simply someone passionate about a hobby.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttocs View Post
    dry this out and spread it on the trails and they would all turn green. Now you even had permission to do the work and it would just be too expensive to prove it?! Its normally not that hard to come up with the required paperwork when asked......
    t:

    I did ask for the Tea Cup paperwork, but the FS refused to give it to me probably because they lost it, but the video proves they gave me prior permission. I wanted all my volunteer agreements and the actual rescinded ones, but they were stonewalling me. Got It?????????

    TD
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Maybe so but we all have a passion for trails or we wouldn't be killing so much time here. So, we have that in common. You may not agree with his methods or style but he's touched more tread in more states than all memebers of the AZ forum combined.

    I suggest the mean-spirited comments cease and try to keep things positive if you have something to say. Otherwise, some of the comments on here sound pretty juvenile to me.


    There are two sides to this discussion and one of them may not be in the most positive vein. TD brought this on himself. Don't want negative comments, don't post in the first place.

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    It was so peaceful around here the past week or so. Maybe a 6 month ban on MTBR should have been added to your disciplinary action!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Fox News is FAIR & BALANCED?
    Yes, to a certain faction of people...
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Yes, to a certain faction of people...
    That would be 29'er HT riders that like to dab a lot.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    There are two sides to this discussion and one of them may not be in the most positive vein. TD brought this on himself. Don't want negative comments, don't post in the first place.
    I prefer to error toward the side of discussion rather than bashing. Mtbr is his outlet. Perhaps he should start a blog. Eitherway, it's your own perogative whether you hit "reply" or not.

    To my knowledge there have been no complaints about TD's work product on FS sanctioned work. They had to get him on something to send a message to the Sedona mtn biking community. He doesn't always see the big picture and only the rocks or needed maintenance in front of his wheel. But now that it's come to being banned from the forest and forced to pay a fine, my 2cents is I'm not sure it's worth the time and effort to continue to take on the establishment. Even if he might have a valid beef.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I prefer to error toward the side of discussion rather than bashing. Mtbr is his outlet. Perhaps he should start a blog. Eitherway, it's your own perogative whether you hit "reply" or not.

    To my knowledge there have been no complaints about TD's work product on FS sanctioned work. They had to get him on something to send a message to the Sedona mtn biking community. He doesn't always see the big picture and only the rocks or needed maintenance in front of his wheel. But now that it's come to being banned from the forest and forced to pay a fine, my 2cents is I'm not sure it's worth the time and effort to continue to take on the establishment. Even if he might have a valid beef.
    The issue now becomes that Sedona is under a microscope. That's at least two rogue trailbuilders that I'm aware of who have been punished. So, what happens now when somebody wants to do some trail work, even if minor? I'm sure they are going to have second thoughts about doing it without getting FS approval.

    He honestly really should just sit quiet for these 6 months, and let things calm down. My opinion.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Fox News is FAIR & BALANCED?
    P:

    I am so happy you have shown your true colors. If you don't think Fox News is F & B who do you think is MSNBC? Please say yes. Bill O'Reilly is considered to be one of the fairest commentators in the industry, right?

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Well then maybe if you were to move that tree you might not want to talk about it on the internet? Just a thought.......
    BINGO... Let trails "fix themselves"... much easier that way.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

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    I don't watch the news. So I have no clue about MSNBC or any other agency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Maybe so but we all have a passion for trails or we wouldn't be killing so much time here. So, we have that in common. You may not agree with his methods or style but he's touched more tread in more states than all memebers of the AZ forum combined.

    I suggest the mean-spirited comments cease and try to keep things positive if you have something to say. Otherwise, some of the comments on here sound pretty juvenile to me.
    Here is the TD model simplified...
    Shine light on something that is controversial and use a controversial method. Separation naturally occurs in the masses because every idiot, including myself, has opinions. Then the masses fight and say silly stuff. What part of this game are you? <--- see that was a TD trick. As I have said earlier...I am entertained.

    _dragon
    _dragon

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    this is awsome!
    and the lurker returns to the dark corner

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Maybe so but we all have a passion for trails or we wouldn't be killing so much time here. So, we have that in common. You may not agree with his methods or style but he's touched more tread in more states than all memebers of the AZ forum combined.

    I suggest the mean-spirited comments cease and try to keep things positive if you have somethting to say. Otherwise, some of the comments on here sound pretty juvenile to me.
    rock:

    I tried to give you some rep for this post because it is spot on. People have asked why I have not started a blog. The reason is if I had a blog I would only be talking to people who agree with me. By posting on MTBR I can get all points of view about what I am passionate about. I am not looking for a mutual admiration society. I am trying to give the masses a great riding experience in an area that has a great system of trails.

    I have been fortunate enough to not be born as an elitist so I share my fun riding loops with others. If I offer them a place to camp out for a while they usually reciprocate with providing a pot luck item for dinner. What could be more fun than enjoying a good meal with others who have the same interest as I do?

    No one would even know about Sedona if I had not been the self-appointed ambassador on MTBR. I am learning CO.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post

    No one would even know about Sedona if I had not been the self-appointed ambassador on MTBR.

    TD
    Hhhmmmm, okay...
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    The issue now becomes that Sedona is under a microscope. That's at least two rogue trailbuilders that I'm aware of who have been punished. So, what happens now when somebody wants to do some trail work, even if minor? I'm sure they are going to have second thoughts about doing it without getting FS approval..
    CO:

    You are almost correct. The Shadow was doing resource damage and creating a new trail. I just didn't get a chance to prove I had permission to do a small one foot by four foot trail enhancement on an existing trail I had already been doing trail enhancements on previously.

    If getting people to stop doing illegal trail work in Sedona is a side effect I am all for it, I have done a previous post to that point and I assumed it was a forgone conclusion, but it's good to reinforce it now and than.


    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    I tried to give you some rep for this post because it is spot on. People have asked why I have not started a blog. The reason is if I had a blog I would only be talking to people who agree with me. By posting on MTBR I can get all points of view about what I am passionate about. I am not looking for a mutual admiration society. I am trying to give the masses a great riding experience in an area that has a great system of trails.

    I have been fortunate enough to not be born as an elitist so I share my fun riding loops with others. If I offer them a place to camp out for a while they usually reciprocate with providing a pot luck item for dinner. What could be more fun than enjoying a good meal with others who have the same interest as I do?

    No one would even know about Sedona if I had not been the self-appointed ambassador on MTBR. I am learning CO.

    TD

    Hog Wash!
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

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    I'm sad to hear the latest news. I'm not clear on how TD was got cited. Did they walk up on him doing unauthorized work? Did they contact him and he told them he did some unauthorized work? I'm curious.

    Generally, comments by the MTBR peanut gallery, show how detached they are from the process of building, maintaining, restoring, and sometimes rerouting trails. Forgive me Rockman, but I'm going to the well, again, to respond to them. Yup, more references from A Few Good Men.


    We live in a world of mountain biking. It requires someone build us trails. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Cycle 64? You, ttocs? Trail Doc has a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You curse him. You mock him. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. Trail Doc's work has saved trails. It has created new flowing trails. It has created greater riding opportunities than have ever existed in Sedona. The Forest Service has neither the time nor the inclination to do the needed trail work that Trail Doc has been doing. You don't want the truth because deep down, you know you are a taker, not a giver. You want to use trails that people like Trail Doc bust their butt to build, but you also want to come here and mock him for discussing his work and asking you to lend a hand from time to time. Trail Doc is honorable. He is loyal to his cause. He has spent his time, his life, defending something. You, you are looking for a punchline to use to mock him and impress others in the peanut gallery. After all he has provided to those riding in Sedona, why do you feel you have the right to question the manner in which he provides his services? I would rather you just said thank you Trail Doc, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a tool, and do your share. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.



    Thank you Trail Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    I'm sad to hear the latest news. I'm not clear on how TD was got cited. Did they walk up on him doing unauthorized work? Did they contact him and he told them he did some unauthorized work? I'm curious.

    Generally, comments by the MTBR peanut gallery, show how detached they are from the process of building, maintaining, restoring, and sometimes rerouting trails. Forgive me Rockman, but I'm going to the well, again, to respond to them. Yup, more references from A Few Good Men.


    We live in a world of mountain biking. It requires someone build us trails. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Cycle 64? You, ttocs? Trail Doc has a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You curse him. You mock him. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. Trail Doc's work has saved trails. It has created new flowing trails. It has created greater riding opportunities than have ever existed in Sedona. The Forest Service has neither the time nor the inclination to do the needed trail work that Trail Doc has been doing. You don't want the truth because deep down, you know you are a taker, not a giver. You want to use trails that people like Trail Doc bust their butt to build, but you also want to come here and mock him for discussing his work and asking you to lend a hand from time to time. Trail Doc is honorable. He is loyal to his cause. He has spent his time, his life, defending something. You, you are looking for a punchline to use to mock him and impress others in the peanut gallery. After all he has provided to those riding in Sedona, why do you feel you have the right to question the manner in which he provides his services? I would rather you just said thank you Trail Doc, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a tool, and do your share. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.



    Thank you Trail Doc
    Blame whom you want. But it is obvious TD brought this upon himself. I could just complain in my blog. But then I would only reach my fan base.

    I am surprise to learn TD created every trail in Arizona. What would we have done with out him. I do find it odd that with such a great resource. The Red Rock district determined his acts required some disciplinary actions. Think there is more to this story than a 1x4 rock movement?
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    I'm sad to hear the latest news. I'm not clear on how TD was got cited. Did they walk up on him doing unauthorized work? Did they contact him and he told them he did some unauthorized work? I'm curious.

    Generally, comments by the MTBR peanut gallery, show how detached they are from the process of building, maintaining, restoring, and sometimes rerouting trails. Forgive me Rockman, but I'm going to the well, again, to respond to them. Yup, more references from A Few Good Men.


    We live in a world of mountain biking. It requires someone build us trails. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Cycle 64? You, ttocs? Trail Doc has a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You curse him. You mock him. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. Trail Doc's work has saved trails. It has created new flowing trails. It has created greater riding opportunities than have ever existed in Sedona. The Forest Service has neither the time nor the inclination to do the needed trail work that Trail Doc has been doing. You don't want the truth because deep down, you know you are a taker, not a giver. You want to use trails that people like Trail Doc bust their butt to build, but you also want to come here and mock him for discussing his work and asking you to lend a hand from time to time. Trail Doc is honorable. He is loyal to his cause. He has spent his time, his life, defending something. You, you are looking for a punchline to use to mock him and impress others in the peanut gallery. After all he has provided to those riding in Sedona, why do you feel you have the right to question the manner in which he provides his services? I would rather you just said thank you Trail Doc, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a tool, and do your share. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.



    Thank you Trail Doc
    Yes, I agree. My rubber is not worthy of the dirt touched by TD's hands.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    I think we are missing some facts. Right now there is a lot of drama away from the facts - as it were - seems there are issues about the issues...symbolism over substance. Is this is a character war of TD vs the world and HE filed those charges...wait a second...what was the ticket for again? <-- see I almost tricked myself.

    What was TD actually cited for? What law(s) was broken? Is there a specific law...number... Can there be picture of the citation? Feel free to remove the personal stuff on there but we need to keep this tread going!!!! I am glad that TPS came to the rescue because I was starting to get bored.

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    if you don't understand how TD got busted you MUST be new here. He made the bed he is laying in. I mean he could prove he is innocent but it is easier just to pay the fine all the time complaining he was legit and telling us all the wonderfull things he has done.
    and the lurker returns to the dark corner

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Yes, I agree. My rubber is not worthy of the dirt touched by TD's hands.
    I once asked if my eyes were worthy of TD posts. When I find that I can only get past a few sentences, that question was answered.

    TD invented Sedona like Al Gore invented the Internet.

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    Are You Not Entertained?

    There was a dream that was Sedona. You could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish, it was so fragile.

    I don't pretend to be a man of the people. But I do try to be a man for the people.

    Trail Doc is defying you. His every victory is an act of defiance. The (MTBR) mob sees this, and so does the Forest Service. Every day he lives, they grow bolder. Kill him.

    At my signal, unleash hell.

    Is Sedona worth one good man's life? We believed it once. Make us believe it again. He was a soldier of Sedona. Honor him

    Strength and honor.

    Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained? Is this not why you are here?

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post

    Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained? Is this not why you are here?
    I liked you more when you stuck to music trivia, and not movie quote parodies.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Absolutely entertained...but...

    I have to take a poop. BRB

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttocs View Post
    if you don't understand how TD got busted you MUST be new here. He made the bed he is laying in. I mean he could prove he is innocent but it is easier just to pay the fine all the time complaining he was legit and telling us all the wonderfull things he has done.
    You're a genious and I'm new here, that must be it.

    Shouldn't you be getting a new tattoo, or shaving your head, or putting a 12" lift on your truck right now? This CSI stuff is a bit above your grade point average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    I'm sad to hear the latest news. I'm not clear on how TD was got cited. Did they walk up on him doing unauthorized work? Did they contact him and he told them he did some unauthorized work? I'm curious.

    Generally, comments by the MTBR peanut gallery, show how detached they are from the process of building, maintaining, restoring, and sometimes rerouting trails. Forgive me Rockman, but I'm going to the well, again, to respond to them. Yup, more references from A Few Good Men.


    We live in a world of mountain biking. It requires someone build us trails. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Cycle 64? You, ttocs? Trail Doc has a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You curse him. You mock him. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. Trail Doc's work has saved trails. It has created new flowing trails. It has created greater riding opportunities than have ever existed in Sedona. The Forest Service has neither the time nor the inclination to do the needed trail work that Trail Doc has been doing. You don't want the truth because deep down, you know you are a taker, not a giver. You want to use trails that people like Trail Doc bust their butt to build, but you also want to come here and mock him for discussing his work and asking you to lend a hand from time to time. Trail Doc is honorable. He is loyal to his cause. He has spent his time, his life, defending something. You, you are looking for a punchline to use to mock him and impress others in the peanut gallery. After all he has provided to those riding in Sedona, why do you feel you have the right to question the manner in which he provides his services? I would rather you just said thank you Trail Doc, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a tool, and do your share. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.



    Thank you Trail Doc
    Thinking I had permission from other major work I had done on the Tea Cup trail I met Jennifer about an hour after I had done the trail enhancement and told her about my well constructed project. What she did from there is a question as to how it went up for a citation. She did not reprimand me for the enhancement when I told her which seems strange. She did cancel my volunteer agreement after the incident and said it was due to me not using her and Phil's maximum 34" brushing standard. I was thinking 40" would be better to allow for a better line of sight for safety purposes, and users clothes and skin from getting less torn up. What is the standard you guys use in Flagstaff? I had also told a CREC crew who worked on the entrance of the Adobe Jack trail where it crosses Crusty that the six stairs they built on the wash crossing were not rideable by bikers and it would have been nice to have a ramp instead.

    Jennifer is very protective of the CREC crew and their somewhat lower quality work. I am not sure why, but it must have something to do with trying to give everyone on the crew a chance to get a sense of accomplishment on doing trail projects. You know that sense of accomplishment you and I get from doing a nice trial enhancement like I did on the huge Tea Cup re-route or the small 1 X 4 project.

    99.9999% of the mountain bikers don't have a clue about how I feel when a large or small FS volunteer project turns out well. Since only .001% even do the work how could they???????????? I know for most they think trail work is for Mexicans and meat heads, so they don't even respect the work we do.

    TD

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    So is this like Obamas "birth certificate"? Is there an actual ticket? I mean...I don't keep all of mine but I am thinking that after watching CSI you are a perfectionist (which is how you got caught BTW) and that you have a room in your trailer dedicated this stuff. You must have a copy...

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    Second man sentenced for illegal trail construction

    "An emergency closure to mountain biking in some sensitive areas of the district is being considered pending final decisions on future trails."

    Dooode that is awesome...take your vacation let it cool down like CO says.......geeez.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dragon View Post
    So is this like Obamas "birth certificate"? Is there an actual ticket? I mean...I don't keep all of mine but I am thinking that after watching CSI you are a perfectionist (which is how you got caught BTW) and that you have a room in your trailer dedicated this stuff. You must have a copy...
    d:

    Here you go
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Will the Sedona Red Rock News be FAIR &amp; BALANCED like Fox News????-citation-tea-cupa.jpg  


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    "An emergency closure to mountain biking in some sensitive areas of the district is being considered pending final decisions on future trails".

    Not a plus if your goal is to improve trail access.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

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    Think of this as your FS "service award" that you so badly want but have been denied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post

    Jennifer is very protective of the CREC crew and their somewhat lower quality work. I am not sure why...

    In Flagstaff, the general rule on brushing is that if it touches you while you are riding on the trail, it gets cut. Whatever width it takes. Also, it the brush creates a blind corner or limits site lines, it gets cut. As far as removing branches that interfere with equestrians on horses; I could care less. I'll cut those branches when they start dismounting and kicking the horse manure off the trail.

    99.9999% of the mountain bikers don't have a clue about how I feel when a large or small FS volunteer project turns out well..TD
    The clueless often embrace their place in life. They sit in the cheap seats, get drunk, and begin shouting at the professionals out on the playing field. What else is there for them to do? They know better than anyone, about all the bad choices they have made. Why not revel in feeble-mindedness.

    I helped start CREC as a Conservation Corps filled with volunteers paid by Americorp grants. We needed a director to run the program. We ended up with a sleezy Forest Service slug who was always double-dealing, as well as double-dipping salaries. At the end of our third season (fall of 1999) he declared the program was over and gave away over $10,000 worth of chainsaws and trail tools to the Forest Service trail crews in Sedona and Flagstaff. It took a major effort by myself and the man who now runs ACE, to save CREC. But that fat bastard made some friends with the FS in both towns and after retiring and moving to Durango, he became a board member of another Conservation Corps, and used his connections to lobby against ACE, saying they used foreign volunteers and that it would be illegal for the FS to hire them. So they hire CREC crews despite the poor quality of their trail work. And like you, the director of ACE had to decide whether to spend weeks and months and now years in Washington, trying to hire attorneys to prove it is legal for volunteers from all around the world to do trail work for government agencies, or to create American only crews to satisfy the local FS land managers, who have no idea what is right or wrong, but read a memo from some retired guy in Durango suggesting it might be wrong and do as he suggests. That explains why Jennifer sticks with CREC crews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    "An emergency closure to mountain biking in some sensitive areas of the district is being considered pending final decisions on future trails".

    Not a plus if your goal is to improve trail access.
    Exactly...

    A part of me believes that the intentions may be okay...sure...hard work is noble. Hey, my washing machine works really hard. I rarely say "hey thank you Mr/Mrs Washing Machine" maybe I should.

    What Mr. Finch cannot see (powered by ego and ignorance) is that he is treading on dangerous ground that will adversely affect the community he thinks he is serving.

    The sad part is that TD thinks he is the victim. If he really believes he is serving the community (something bigger then himself) then he needs to find out how to work with the FS...and his fellow citizens of Sedona. If his actions are anything like the history on this forum it will not happen. Which is too bad. Seems like he could have potential to turn things around...ahh nature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _dragon View Post
    Exactly...

    A part of me believes that the intentions may be okay...sure...hard work is noble. Hey, my washing machine works really hard. I rarely say "hey thank you Mr/Mrs Washing Machine" maybe I should.

    What Mr. Finch cannot see (powered by ego and ignorance) is that he is treading on dangerous ground that will adversely affect the community he thinks he is serving.

    The sad part is that TD thinks he is the victim. If he really believes he is serving the community (something bigger then himself) then he needs to find out how to work with the FS...and his fellow citizens of Sedona. If his actions are anything like the history on this forum it will not happen. Which is too bad. Seems like he could have potential to turn things around...ahh nature.
    "An emergency closure to mountain biking in some sensitive areas of the district is being considered pending final decisions on future trails."



    When I watch some fear-based attack ads the DNC runs, suggesting the Republicans want to starve grandma and roll her and her wheelchair off a cliff, I can't help but wonder; they spent a lot of time and effort creating this ad. What sort of dolts are they trying to appeal to. You and Cycle64 just answered that question.

    That's all it takes to get the simple-minded to turn on fellow mountain biker, and trail builder extraordinaire. Just a one sentence bogus threat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    When I watch some fear-based attack ads the DNC runs, suggesting the Republicans want to starve grandma and roll her and her wheelchair off a cliff, I can't help but wonder; they spent a lot of time and effort creating this ad.
    That's all it takes to get the simple-minded to turn on fellow mountain biker, and trail builder extraordinaire. Just a one sentence bogus threat.
    What ****ing channel are you watching? Take the blinders off.

    BTW, no offense, but if "simple-minded" you're referring to the MTBRers, do I need to remind you that it was the FS who turned in TD, not his fellow mt bikers?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    d:

    Here you go
    Long form please. This looks fake.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dragon View Post
    Second man sentenced for illegal trail construction

    "An emergency closure to mountain biking in some sensitive areas of the district is being considered pending final decisions on future trails."

    Dooode that is awesome...take your vacation let it cool down like CO says.......geeez.
    d:

    I think that is good advice. Got the propane refer working. Water system works good. Starting to put canned goods in. Got half my clothes in. Things are moving forward.

    Thanks for the advice,

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Long form please. This looks fake.
    Sedona does not do long forms anymore

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    Listen TPS, if they are using this a means to an end. who gets hurt? Those which ride the trails. Just because you have a woody for TD. Still will not alter the fact that they are pissed at what he is doing. All arguments aside. They enforce policy! Not you or TD. So if a few radical trail builders push their buttons enough. Sooner or later it's going to cause issues with riders wanting access. So toss out all your name calling you want. That's not going to change the fact they don;t like what has been done by these trail builders on Forrest land.

    TD said it him self. They told TD to do it one way and he did it another. Right or wrong it's not a good approach to working with others., So who is really the dolt now TPS!
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    d:

    I think that is good advice. Got the propane refer working. Water system works good. Starting to put canned goods in. Got half my clothes in. Things are moving forward.

    Thanks for the advice,

    TD
    FYI, you can use vodka to clean your water system rather than bleach if it's been sitting a long time

    I believe I owe the state of AZ 8 hours of time for a day of lost productivity due to this thread. The AZ forum is back. Now where's Mr. Whir, RadBrad, Taildoc, and Acrophobe when you need them?

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    "An emergency closure to mountain biking in some sensitive areas of the district is being considered pending final decisions on future trails."



    When I watch some fear-based attack ads the DNC runs, suggesting the Republicans want to starve grandma and roll her and her wheelchair off a cliff, I can't help but wonder; they spent a lot of time and effort creating this ad. What sort of dolts are they trying to appeal to. You and Cycle64 just answered that question.

    That's all it takes to get the simple-minded to turn on fellow mountain biker, and trail builder extraordinaire. Just a one sentence bogus threat.
    Awe come on now... The logic is what is funny no fear at all. I will walk you through it. I will even type slow so you can understand. TD wants a better mtn bike user experience and yet in the process shuts down the trails. They conflict with each other. I am not sure what a dolt is but if they have a 12" lifted truck I am a wannabe dolt I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    "An emergency closure to mountain biking in some sensitive areas of the district is being considered pending final decisions on future trails".

    Not a plus if your goal is to improve trail access.
    But there are so many new and interesting trails in Sedona now as compared to 10 years ago. I think Traildoc started something that the Forest Service won't be able to stop, no matter what his actions are. He improved the Sedona experience many times over, if it reverts back for some reason, that doesn't change the fact that it was far better for a time.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    But there are so many new and interesting trails in Sedona now as compared to 10 years ago. I think Traildoc started something that the Forest Service won't be able to stop, no matter what his actions are. He improved the Sedona experience many times over, if it reverts back for some reason, that doesn't change the fact that it was far better for a time.
    Where will Sedona be in 10 years?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  79. #79
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    I hope just a nice town with good trails and no ****ing TD Drama.
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dragon View Post
    I am not sure what a dolt is but if they have a 12" lifted truck I am a wannabe dolt I suppose.
    Wow. You're making my argument for me. Didn't I see you on one of those occupy Wall Street You Tube videos?

    Get your pencil out. Sedona has 50 new trails built the last five years. Everyone rides them and loves them. 45 of those trails were built without Forest Service approval. The Forest Service decides since everyone is already riding the trails, they will adopt a dozen of them and pretend the rest don't exist. Trail Doc is the driving force getting those trails adopted. He even begins doing trail work on system trails, and not wildcat trails, in hopes of building a relationship with the FS that will get other trails adopted. Despite attempting to bite his lip and work alongside idiots who haven't a clue how to build sustainable trails, he ultimately decides to go rogue, and do outstanding and badly needed improvements to a system trail. This offended someone at the FS, who felt that by sending the law dogs to visit Trail Doc, she would gain control of trail construction in Sedona. By control, I mean that only she and her prolific wildcat trail building boyfriend would be making decisions about what gets built. To put a scare into the unusually weak-minded riders, she would release a statement saying that a trail or two might get closed in the future. Those weak-minded riders quickly blame Trail Doc for trail closures, even if there never are any trail closures. Then, they get on their bikes and go riding in Sedona on several dozen different trails, never realizing they are not riding on system trails built by the FS, but they are riding on Trails built by mountain bikers like Trail Doc. I suppose, being idiots, they probably wouldn't see the hypocrisy of riding on Trails built by Trail Doc anyway.

    So, 50 new trails. Let's say the FS does close one to try to intimidate wildcat builders. What is 50 minus 1? Somewhere around 49, right? Suppose Doc and others never lifted a finger all of these years. The FS might have built 5 trails, none that looked anything like Hangover or any of the most popular trails. But then, you would argue, the FS would not have to threaten trail closure. Correct. All 5 of their boring trails would remain open. In which scenario do you end up with the most number of trails to ride and the most challenging trails to ride? Get it? Now shut the pie hole and be thankful you will never have to lift a finger and do any heavy lifting to enjoy some of the best trail riding in the Southwest.
    Last edited by The Prodigal Son; 06-07-2012 at 08:09 PM. Reason: spelling error

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    I think TPS wants to be the new TD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    What ****ing channel are you watching? Take the blinders off.

    BTW, no offense, but if "simple-minded" you're referring to the MTBRers, do I need to remind you that it was the FS who turned in TD, not his fellow mt bikers?
    " width="549">

    You have an uncanny habit of stepping into the middle of debates you know little or nothing about. It's part of what the internet allows, I guess. People unwilling to accept that there actually are experts, people who are players, people with experience and knowledge that far surpasses that of those who only make uneducate comments to entertain themselves. People like Doc have made the calculations, know the risks, know how the story will play out.

    Trail Doc snitched himself off. He admitted to doing work they didn't want. The simple-minded I refer to, are those who cannot understand how this plays out, and so they attack and blame him for some imaginary loss of riding opportunity. It defies logic. Would you lose one trail to the FS, temporarily, if you could gain 45 other new trails built by riders, for riders? Not being a player in the game, you can only guess what is happening.

    Quick history lesson.

    Flagstaff has a shortage of trails for mountain bikers. Some motorcycle riders create Moto Trail. The Forest Service attempts to close it. They don't have the manpower to do much more than toss some branches over it. They are quickly removed and the trail gets more use than ever. The riders create even more new trails. Secret Trail is said to pass close to a nesting owl. The FS tries to offer a deal to riders. Quit creating new trails and they will adopt Moto. Riders agree, but keep building new trails. The FS occasionally sends out a few trail workers to toss some more branches over the trails. They are removed in days. Three dozen or more new trails are built by riders. The FS decides to build more system trails, in hopes of slowing the construction of wildcat trails. It doesn't work. Riders get new legal trails and keep riding the illegal trails. Turns out the FS could cite someone caught building those trails but not simply riding on those trails. Sometimes the FS pays a CREC crew to go out and cover a newly built wildcat trail. After it is uncovered once or maybe twice, the FS throws in the towel and declares the wildcat trail a masterpiece they were planning to build themselves, adopting it and calling it something like a new section of The Loop Trail.

    So it would seem, the FS has a history of rewarding negative behavior. This leads riders to seek more rewards. The way to do that is to construct new trails. If you were on the inside, and not so far on the outside, you would know a whole lot more about the chess game going on in the woods. But no need. Just be content in riding all the new trails, never asking yourself if it is a legal trail or perhaps a trail built by someone you prefer to criticize.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Where will Sedona be in 10 years?
    I got to ride it. That matters to me. If ******bags want to turn it back into what it was before, I won't go, simple as that.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I got to ride it. That matters to me. If ******bags want to turn it back into what it was before, I won't go, simple as that.
    You hear of Marin County?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Beam View Post
    WAY tl:dr

    Cliff's Notes version please?
    Agreed. I don't even know what his argument is most of the time. I'll admit I'm lazy though.

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    There's a reason why we get to drive across the country at sppeds of 70mph or more. Because the vast majority of drivers simply ignored the 55mph speed limit. Sure, the Federal government threatened to withold highway transportation funding to states that didn't properly enforce the 55mph speed limits. Some tried to comply. Others told the feds that it was unreasonable to expect drivers in western states to drive at the same speed limit at drivers in the northeast, where there is more congestion and driving faster than 55mph is impracticle. But we all would still be restricted to driving 55mph if it wasn't for people willing to go outside the law and force the government to change it;s attitude.

    Everyone who rides in Sedona takes advantage of the benefits of illegal trail builders. You don't meet many riders refusing to ride on anything but system trails built by the Forest Service. So the benefits are obvious. They wouldn't exist if certain people were not willing to go outside the rules. They know what they are doing. They know the risks. They know the potential benefit. They have a record of nearly 100% success. Even the few failures often lead to unforseen success. The FS is almost entirely predictable. In the end, they are government workers who lack motivation and passion for their jobs. They really just don't care much. They'll make strong statements, even threats of trail closure. They'll gladly make an example of someone. But the LEO's want nothing to do with going out on foot and trying to catch people. They like their air conditioned SUV's, not hiking miles out on a trail. The FS doesn't have the resources to close all the user built trails in Sedona. They know this. Over time, they will continue to adopt these trails. quit grousing and celebrate all the incredible riding opportunities Sedona has because of folks like Trail Doc.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    Wow. You're making my argument for me. Didn't I see you on one of those occupy Wall Street You Tube videos?

    Get your pencil out. Sedona has 50 new trails built the last five years. Everyone rides them and loves them. 45 of those trails were built without Forest Service approval. The Forest Service decides since everyone is already riding the trails, they will adopt a dozen of them and pretend the rest don't exist. Trail Doc is the driving force getting those trails adopted. He even begins doing trail work on system trails, and not wildcat trails, in hopes of building a relationship with the FS that will get other trails adopted. Despite attempting to bite his lip and work alongside idiots who haven't a clue how to build sustainable trails, he ultimately decides to go rogue, and do outstanding and badly needed improvements to a system trail. This offended someone at the FS, who felt that by sending the law dogs to visit Trail Doc, she would gain control of trail construction in Sedona. By control, I mean that only she and her prolific wildcat trail building boyfriend would be making decisions about what gets built. To put a scare into the unusually weak-minded riders, she would release a statement saying that a trail or two might get closed in the future. Those weak-minded riders quickly blame Trail Doc for trail closures, even if there never are any trail closures. Then, they get on their bikes and go riding in Sedona on several dozen different trails, never realizing they are not riding on system trails built by the FS, but they are riding on Trails built by mountain bikers like Trail Doc. I suppose, being idiots, they probably wouldn't see the hypocrisy of riding on Trails built by Trail Doc anyway.

    So, 50 new trails. Let's say the FS does close one to try to intimidate wildcat builders. What is 50 minus 1? Somewhere around 49, right? Suppose Doc and others never lifted a finger all of these years. The FS might have built 5 trails, none that looked anything like Hangover or any of the most popular trails. But then, you would argue, the FS would not have to threaten trail closure. Correct. All 5 of their boring trails would remain open. In which scenario do you end up with the most number of trails to ride and the most challenging trails to ride? Get it? Now shut the pie hole and be thankful you will never have to lift a finger and do any heavy lifting to enjoy some of the best trail riding in the Southwest.
    I get the plight of TD. Not sure if I agree with the "cowboy" trail building method but I do get it. He is doing what he feels is right. I already gave him 2 kewl points to use as he pleases. I am not sure if I get TPS. The hate and anger are just pure ugly...I am not sure if I should make out with him or just hold him close. If I were to lean over would TPS lean back and give me a kiss? Before it is asked, I did do trail work today. I was riding out of the HOA this morning onto South Mountain on an unapproved trail and moved a rock to the side.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    Wow. You're making my argument for me. Didn't I see you on one of those occupy Wall Street You Tube videos?

    Get your pencil out. Sedona has 50 new trails built the last five years. Everyone rides them and loves them. 45 of those trails were built without Forest Service approval. The Forest Service decides since everyone is already riding the trails, they will adopt a dozen of them and pretend the rest don't exist. Trail Doc is the driving force getting those trails adopted. He even begins doing trail work on system trails, and not wildcat trails, in hopes of building a relationship with the FS that will get other trails adopted. Despite attempting to bite his lip and work alongside idiots who haven't a clue how to build sustainable trails, he ultimately decides to go rogue, and do outstanding and badly needed improvements to a system trail. This offended someone at the FS, who felt that by sending the law dogs to visit Trail Doc, she would gain control of trail construction in Sedona. By control, I mean that only she and her prolific wildcat trail building boyfriend would be making decisions about what gets built. To put a scare into the unusually weak-minded riders, she would release a statement saying that a trail or two might get closed in the future. Those weak-minded riders quickly blame Trail Doc for trail closures, even if there never are any trail closures. Then, they get on their bikes and go riding in Sedona on several dozen different trails, never realizing they are not riding on system trails built by the FS, but they are riding on Trails built by mountain bikers like Trail Doc. I suppose, being idiots, they probably wouldn't see the hypocrisy of riding on Trails built by Trail Doc anyway.

    So, 50 new trails. Let's say the FS does close one to try to intimidate wildcat builders. What is 50 minus 1? Somewhere around 49, right? Suppose Doc and others never lifted a finger all of these years. The FS might have built 5 trails, none that looked anything like Hangover or any of the most popular trails. But then, you would argue, the FS would not have to threaten trail closure. Correct. All 5 of their boring trails would remain open. In which scenario do you end up with the most number of trails to ride and the most challenging trails to ride? Get it? Now shut the pie hole and be thankful you will never have to lift a finger and do any heavy lifting to enjoy some of the best trail riding in the Southwest.
    Yes, your math is correct. 50 minus 1 is 49. Thank you trail doc, we are all indebt.

    Now TPS, STFU.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    If it is not legal, don't do it. If it is not yours, don't mess with it. If you want it changed, do it correctly. To try to change a law by continuously breaking the law is quite a stupid way to do things.
    One of the best trail systems I ride were made by riders and have the full support of the land owners. It is amazing to have that support, as well as the people who do the work.
    I just believe in accountability. No one should be above the laws. It's like leash laws. I understand that everyone's dog is perfect and wouldn't hurt a fly, but laws are laws, and no one should be above them. If you ignore them, don't be mad when you get in trouble.
    That being said, I look forward to going and riding Sedona one day. Phoenix is fun but I can't wait to try something different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tysonnemb View Post
    If it is not legal, don't do it. If it is not yours, don't mess with it. If you want it changed, do it correctly. To try to change a law by continuously breaking the law is quite a stupid way to do things.
    One of the best trail systems I ride were made by riders and have the full support of the land owners. It is amazing to have that support, as well as the people who do the work.
    I just believe in accountability. No one should be above the laws. It's like leash laws. I understand that everyone's dog is perfect and wouldn't hurt a fly, but laws are laws, and no one should be above them. If you ignore them, don't be mad when you get in trouble.
    That being said, I look forward to going and riding Sedona one day. Phoenix is fun but I can't wait to try something different.
    Leash laws? Wow. You clearly just don't get it. Some laws need to be questioned and sometimes it takes a rebel to make a change. People that just follow rules rarely make history. Often, in a life and death situation the "rule followers" are the ones that die. If you are a lover of those leash laws I think I can speak for all mountain town dwellers, please stay in your city, we don't need your money if you are going to bring your urban values to our mountain town. Thank you, RA

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    Quote Originally Posted by tysonnemb View Post
    If it is not legal, don't do it. If it is not yours, don't mess with it. If you want it changed, do it correctly. To try to change a law by continuously breaking the law is quite a stupid way to do things.
    One of the best trail systems I ride were made by riders and have the full support of the land owners. It is amazing to have that support, as well as the people who do the work.
    I just believe in accountability. No one should be above the laws. It's like leash laws. I understand that everyone's dog is perfect and wouldn't hurt a fly, but laws are laws, and no one should be above them. If you ignore them, don't be mad when you get in trouble.
    That being said, I look forward to going and riding Sedona one day. Phoenix is fun but I can't wait to try something different.
    So I take it you're looking forward to an epic Bell-rock Pathway ride? Maybe out and back 3 or 4 times? Don't ride Llama, that was started as an illegal trail. Don't ride any of the Hogs. Don't ride Highline. Don't ride Hangover. Don't ride Mescal. Oh, there are some trails you can ride for sure, haha, but much of what makes Sedona a great riding destination is going to be on "illegal" trails, so you might as well not come, there's nothing for someone who has the beliefs that you do.

    One of the biggest problems out here in the west is that land managers do NOT want to allow our user group to build trails that are orientated to our user group. Many existing trails are trainwrecks at best, lots of ridiculous fall-line rock-piles that have been there for years with no trailwork or even thought when implemented/adopted. I have to agree that the land managers are so wrapped up in trying to please everyone and liability that it's simply stalled progress and development.

    On the other hand, I have a hard time believing you've never ridden any "illegal" trails...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Leash laws? Wow. You clearly just don't get it. Some laws need to be questioned and sometimes it takes a rebel to make a change. People that just follow rules rarely make history. Often, in a life and death situation the "rule followers" are the ones that die. If you are a lover of those leash laws I think I can speak for all mountain town dwellers, please stay in your city, we don't need your money if you are going to bring your urban values to our mountain town. Thank you, RA
    Wow, nice response. I actually agree that changes need to be made sometimes, I just feel that sometimes there could be a more diplomatic approach. I don't have a full understanding of the situation, I just thought it would be okay to have an opinion.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    So I take it you're looking forward to an epic Bell-rock Pathway ride? Maybe out and back 3 or 4 times? Don't ride Llama, that was started as an illegal trail. Don't ride any of the Hogs. Don't ride Highline. Don't ride Hangover. Don't ride Mescal. Oh, there are some trails you can ride for sure, haha, but much of what makes Sedona a great riding destination is going to be on "illegal" trails, so you might as well not come, there's nothing for someone who has the beliefs that you do.

    One of the biggest problems out here in the west is that land managers do NOT want to allow our user group to build trails that are orientated to our user group. Many existing trails are trainwrecks at best, lots of ridiculous fall-line rock-piles that have been there for years with no trailwork or even thought when implemented/adopted. I have to agree that the land managers are so wrapped up in trying to please everyone and liability that it's simply stalled progress and development.

    On the other hand, I have a hard time believing you've never ridden any "illegal" trails...
    I apologize. I do not fully understand the situation with the trails in Sedona. I was just saying that I agree that some rules are dumb, and deserve to be changed, but I personally would do it my own way. I am not judging anyone else, and maybe my way would not yield the results of others.

  94. #94
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    I can't wait to rap with TD about our trail history. The FS finally gave me a trail of my own to play with, it's called Rush Hour...but not THAT Rush!
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    " width="549">

    You have an uncanny habit of stepping into the middle of debates you know little or nothing about. It's part of what the internet allows, I guess. People unwilling to accept that there actually are experts, people who are players, people with experience and knowledge that far surpasses that of those who only make uneducate comments to entertain themselves. People like Doc have made the calculations, know the risks, know how the story will play out.

    Trail Doc snitched himself off. He admitted to doing work they didn't want. The simple-minded I refer to, are those who cannot understand how this plays out, and so they attack and blame him for some imaginary loss of riding opportunity. It defies logic. Would you lose one trail to the FS, temporarily, if you could gain 45 other new trails built by riders, for riders? Not being a player in the game, you can only guess what is happening.

    Quick history lesson.

    Flagstaff has a shortage of trails for mountain bikers. Some motorcycle riders create Moto Trail. The Forest Service attempts to close it. They don't have the manpower to do much more than toss some branches over it. They are quickly removed and the trail gets more use than ever. The riders create even more new trails. Secret Trail is said to pass close to a nesting owl. The FS tries to offer a deal to riders. Quit creating new trails and they will adopt Moto. Riders agree, but keep building new trails. The FS occasionally sends out a few trail workers to toss some more branches over the trails. They are removed in days. Three dozen or more new trails are built by riders. The FS decides to build more system trails, in hopes of slowing the construction of wildcat trails. It doesn't work. Riders get new legal trails and keep riding the illegal trails. Turns out the FS could cite someone caught building those trails but not simply riding on those trails. Sometimes the FS pays a CREC crew to go out and cover a newly built wildcat trail. After it is uncovered once or maybe twice, the FS throws in the towel and declares the wildcat trail a masterpiece they were planning to build themselves, adopting it and calling it something like a new section of The Loop Trail.

    So it would seem, the FS has a history of rewarding negative behavior. This leads riders to seek more rewards. The way to do that is to construct new trails. If you were on the inside, and not so far on the outside, you would know a whole lot more about the chess game going on in the woods. But no need. Just be content in riding all the new trails, never asking yourself if it is a legal trail or perhaps a trail built by someone you prefer to criticize.
    TPS:

    That scenario you stated could never happen in Sedona. You may have had that situation happen in Flagstaff, but to my knowledge it has never happened here.

    In a very ideal world when a new user built trail were found rather than immediately slashing the trail why not do a quick evaluation to see if the trail has any merit to fit in with the rest of the system trails to make an outstanding loop situation?

    In the real Sedona world that is impossible, due to the Congressional Mandate it just can not happen.

    For example there is a trail in Sedona called Gunslinger. Gunslinger is a trail that makes the newly adopted Chuck Wagon trail a loop trail. Jennifer Burns and I use to work together developing a thirteen FS system loop information piece to help Sedona biking visitors have an opportunity to ride loops that consisted only of system trails. I am not sure how successful that information piece is currently, but my point is Jennifer loves LOOPS.

    The map was completed before user built trails: Chuck Wagon, Mescal, Gunsmoke, Adobe Jack, Crusty, Coyote, Javelina, Grand Central, Shorty, P. Plunge, Ant Hill, Hermit, Yavapi Vista, Basalt, Slim Shady, Made in the Shade, Easy Breezy (according to the Bear Tooth Map it has been adopted) Coconino and Kaibab were added to a system status in less than one year.

    If those above trails had been in a system status two years ago when we developed the new loop map, I would think today's new FS system map of thirteen recommended system trail loops would be very different, and most of the user built trails listed above would be part of the thirteen new loops. If you were to throw in Anaconda which I understand may be included soon that trail would certainly be in one or two soon to be very popular loop scenarios.

    If you could get Gunslinger and Highline adopted I would take a guess you would retire the original map Jennifer and I partnered up on, and maybe only use one or two of our original loops suggestions for a new FS system trail loop map.

    In a very ideal world when a new user built trail were to be found rather than immediately slashing the trail why not do a quick evaluation to see if the trail has any merit to fit in with the rest of the system trails to make an outstanding loop situation?

    In the real Sedona world that is impossible, due to the Congressional Mandate it just can not happen. If a way could be found to eventually bring in the new user built trail that would be nice, but certainly could never happen here due to the Antiquities Act.

    Bringing in user built trails that have been slashed previously is fraught with controversy. Why spend a bunch of money to destroy a trail then when you find out it benefits the rest of your system you have to spend twice the money restoring it? That may have worked when money grew on trees, but I think those days are coming to a rapid halt.

    Hopefully trail builders can see that there are more than enough trails in Sedona and they will concentrate their skills on maintaining all the trails listed above rather than getting more trails closed. Unfortunately, it much easier said then being done, but maybe young new blood like Lars and Chalkpaw can get it to happen.

    Thank God I will be leaving soon. I will take lots of pictures to show I was not in Sedona, so don't think I did some trail enhancement to make a small spot more rideable. Yesterday I went on a road ride for the first time in 25 years. I think I will become a Sedona roadie, but it kind of seemed dangerous with all those cars flying by.

    Good Luck,

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 06-08-2012 at 12:19 AM.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by tysonnemb View Post
    Wow, nice response. I actually agree that changes need to be made sometimes, I just feel that sometimes there could be a more diplomatic approach. I don't have a full understanding of the situation, I just thought it would be okay to have an opinion.
    t:

    Just to bring you up to date we have very strict leash laws in Sedona, but some of our community leaders and their friends choose to ignore them regularly because the law in their eyes is stupid. I personally don't have a dog and I love to have my friends dogs on a ride when we do a group ride. Does that make me a bad person because I ride with friends who are breaking the law, or is the law stupid? It makes for an interesting discussion though.

    When posting your views don't be a wuss and back down just make sure you have God on your side son, and keep typing up the way you see the world even though you may sound stupid.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    TPS:



    In a very ideal world when a new user built trail were found rather than immediately slashing the trail why not do a quick evaluation to see if the trail has any merit to fit in with the rest of the system trails to make an outstanding loop situation?

    In the real Sedona world that is impossible, due to the Congressional Mandate it just can not happen. If a way could be found to eventually bring in the new user built trail that would be nice, but certainly could never happen here due to the Antiquities Act.


    TD
    Do you remember when President Clinton stood at the south rim of the Grand Canyon in Arizona and declared parts of Utah to be newly protected wilderness areas? It was days before he left office. He made the declaration in Arizona because he was told he wasn't welcomed in Utah. He essentially declared land that was highly protected by the State of Utah and declared it super-duper federally protected lands. People in Utah were angry. Before there land became wilderness (meaning roadless by definition), they quickly cut in some roads, to prevent some of it from being turned into wilderness. These are just some of the games played by politicians.

    Land managers have rules they should follow when building trails. NEPA is required sometimes, but not always. When there is an existing trail, they skip the environmental study, the wildlife study, the concerns about archy sites are much less. Some land managers like the users building trails. It makes it easy for them to just adopt that trail. There are also places like Bend, OR, where the Forest Service builds trails constantly, without doing NEPA. How is that? How do they skirt the laws that the FS in Arizona gets mired down in? It's all about interpretation. In Bend, they feel that if you have existing trails on a perimeter of land, there is no need to do NEPA on any of the land inside that perimeter. They just fill in gaps with new trails that can be built immediately from the time they are proposed. It makes a lot of what you here from the FS in Arizona sound like BS. Like their brushing rules. But the good news is the user built trails open the door to quick adoption, by skirting government regulations. Now, if you can just educate some of the riders in Arizona so they understand the total upside to your work, we might benefit from there support. The FS would not have anyone to intimidate with their hollow threats.

    Also, I know individual FS employees must publically tow the company line. But has Jason or anyone else working in Sedona contacted you privately and said they support your efforts? I'm not asking you to give out their names and put them at risk, so don't. Just wondering if we have more friends inside the FS than we think.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Leash laws? Wow. You clearly just don't get it. Some laws need to be questioned and sometimes it takes a rebel to make a change. People that just follow rules rarely make history. Often, in a life and death situation the "rule followers" are the ones that die. If you are a lover of those leash laws I think I can speak for all mountain town dwellers, please stay in your city, we don't need your money if you are going to bring your urban values to our mountain town. Thank you, RA
    RA, I hate to say it, but you're starting to sound like a broken record. Please don't judge a city by its population or proximity to "mountains."

    Okay, let's bring it back to TD. Should he be allowed to build trails without getting soil surveys, enviromental impact studies, etc.? Yea, I agree there is probably too much red tape and feet dragging. Why anybody is surpriosed there are consequences just has me scratching my head.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    RA, I hate to say it, but you're starting to sound like a broken record. Please don't judge a city by its population or proximity to "mountains."

    Okay, let's bring it back to TD. Should he be allowed to build trails without getting soil surveys, enviromental impact studies, etc.? Yea, I agree there is probably too much red tape and feet dragging. Why anybody is surpriosed there are consequences just has me scratching my head.
    CO:

    Once again your sarcasm serves you well. Just for the record the citation I was given has totally changed my behavior about doing well constructed trail enhancements without getting all the necessary paperwork. I am totally opposed to any illegal trail building and if I see anyone building a new trail it will be reported to the FS.

    Also if I see a new illegal trail under construction I will report it to the FS. I hope you understand this thread was started to make sure when the Red Rock News does their information piece on me that they understand what I was cited for. I was not cited for building an illegal trail unless you term a one foot by four foot well constructed trail enhancement a trail.

    I have already reported a new illegal trail to the Forest Service so they understand I am doing what I said I would do. All illegal trail builders have been put on notice by me that no new illegal trail building will be tolerated. Got It?????????????

    Are you coming to my retirement party tonight? Even though I know you are a TD hater you are welcome to join us.

    TD
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I think I can speak for all mountain town dwellers,



    Please don't.

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