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  1. #1
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    Will the Sedona Red Rock News be FAIR & BALANCED like Fox News????

    I assume the Red Rock News will be doing an article on my really well done trail improvement on the Tea Cup trail from the official Forest Service position. Their position will be, no well intentioned very experienced old guy who has done hundreds of hours of sanctioned FS trail projects on the same trail previously can do a one foot by four foot project without having the same volunteer agreement that Plumber Phil has with the FS.

    You can't tell me that Phil has spent thousands of hours working for Jennifer and during those thousands of hours he didn't spend 15 minutes fixing a small section of trail that made for an improved user experience.

    Let's have Jennifer and Phil share with us the wordage on Phil's volunteer agreement so we all have a better idea if we work for the FS as a volunteer what our volunteer agreement should say.

    Dear Editor:

    You may have received some information from the Forest Service regarding a trail improvement I was recently cited for doing on the Tea Cup trail. The citation resulted in me receiving a $1,000 dollar fine and six month ban from the Northern Arizona Forest. The reason for the fine is that I did not obtain the appropriate permits to complete the one foot by four foot trail improvement. The actual improvement was completed to the new Sedona trail building standard developed by Plumber Phil and Jennifer Burns from the Red Rock Ranger District.

    I have been working with Phil and Jennifer over the last three years working on new trails, adopting trails, trail improvements, trail re-routes and trail reconstruction due to severe flooding.

    Even though I had completed a huge approved re-routing project on the Tea Cup trail previously the law enforcement arm of the Forest Service believed I did not have permission to do the well constructed repair, so they cited me to let other well intended FS volunteers and others know good intended excellent trail improvements are considered illegal and subject to a fine and restitution.

    Due to my age I have decided to take early retirement from the Forest Service volunteer crew and concentrate on other hobbies. My wife and I will be taking a five month motor home adventure to enjoy some of America's most wonderful mountain biking trails.

    Here is a video link (https://vimeo.com/43011081) of the trail segment I did the work on so viewers can see where I did the work when they either ride or hike the trail. Ranger Mike O'Neil from the Red Rock Ranger District who actually cited me is an advanced mountain biker and he told me that my trail improvement has allowed him to ride that section of trail where in previous rides he had to walk that section.

    I am very proud of the quality of my work I have done for the Forest Service the last three years. The lesson to be learned is if you are an old and experienced volunteer FS trail maintenance person like myself, don't assume you can take iniative and do work for the Forest Service because they don't have the budget to do these worthy repairs. If you are going to help the Forest Service you need to go through all the necessary paper work to not be subject to a fine and banning of the forest. Good intentions don't mean anything when it comes to doing trail maintenance work even though your work is as good or better than the person who is getting paid to do it.

    Like Jennifer's friend Phil who has been doing thousands of hours of volunteer work for the FS over the last three years, if I had to do it over again I would have required the FS to give me the same Volunteer Agreement Phil has with the FS, so if I were to do future trail repairs I would have a very comprehensive agreement wordage to protect me when I took the imitative to do well intended projects to save taxpayer dollars and give trail users a better riding or hiking experience.

    Sincerely,

    John Finch


    This is an email I just got from an old friend who retired and got out of California and moved to North Carolina. He and I use to work together on trail projects for the city of Belmont. At Water Dog I could have done a one foot by four foot trail improvement with out having to get the appropriate paperwork because the land manager didn't have to follow a congressional mandate, that some people who have the special volunteer agreement wordage can bypass.


    Email From an Old Trail Building Buddy

    John,
    I'm sorry your work wasn't appreciated. The fine is bad enough, but being banned from the forest for 6 months has got to be truly painful. Like having your babies taken away from you, My sincere sympathies.
    I just got back from a trail dedication ceremony attended by the mayor, the Director of Parks & Rec and several other local dignitaries & community members. While the primary purpose of the ceremony was to open the trail, I was presented with a plaque from the FFA, granting me an honorary degree recognizing my time & effort working with the high school kids on the project. One of the other people recognized was a student, Laura, who I worked with closely. She described the technique I had taught them that I learned while working @ Water Dog. To hear her describe what I had taught, and to know she "got it" and will continue to use it & likely teach it to others in the future, really made my day, far more than the plaque.
    Be well, I hope you find great riding in the next 6 months,
    Berry

    A thought from TD after reading the email from my friend Berry:

    I wonder if the Red Rock Ranger District will ever give Phil and Jennifer a plaque of recognition for all their hard work for making Sedona a better place to recreate? If it is a matter of a lack of funding for the plaque, I will offer to pay for it, if Heather will authorize it, and I propose it can be presented at the highpoint of Highline when that trail is finely adopted.

    In Whistler the plaque could be presented at the top of the Peak chair. In Sedona it won't happen because ????????????????????????????????????????????????

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 06-06-2012 at 03:00 PM.

  2. #2
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    Will TD take advantage of his forced break and post more about the awesome rides he's getting in instead of trying to burn bridges?

    TD, enjoy the retirement. Hopefully the trails will be in decent shape when you get your tools back. Don't ruin it for the rest of us...please.
    Last edited by Casual Observer; 06-06-2012 at 03:11 PM.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Will TD take advantage of his force break and post more about the awesome rides he's getting in instead of trying to burn bridges?

    TD, enjoy the retirement. Hopefully the trails will be in decent shape when you get your tools back. Don't ruin it for the rest of us...please.
    CO:

    I am not trying to burn bridges I am trying to show how one place can embrace the efforts of a group of dedicated volunteers and another is afraid to tell the public of their efforts since a small group of people HATE the good work they are doing. Jennifer and Phil should be getting a plaque every week for their efforts, but in Sedona there is a small group of individuals who hate the work they are doing. They claim it is extreme resource damage or better yet archeological damage to a site that will be cataloged, but never researched.

    I would appreciate the Red Rock Ranger Office showing the recreating public one significant archeological site that they have cataloged while doing the current adoption process. Where after finding the site a researcher has gone out and actually researched the site and come up with something of historical significance. Is that too difficult of a request? I am certainly interested in knowing what they have found out. You certainly can't find anything on Google for those yellow flagged spots. Will they ever be researched or even considered significant enough to spend the time and money to write a paper on them of historical significance?

    I talked to the local Native American Indian imposter and he said the local tribes are more interested in their casinos then they are in those recently yellow flagged sites. It's too bad so much money has to be spent on something most Indians could care less about. Our great well intended government thinks it is important, but at this time of extremely crippling debt can we afford it when it seems nothing of real significance is currently being learned? Where does an old guy like me go to find out what new is currently being learned about southwest American history that wasn't known previously?

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 06-06-2012 at 03:42 PM.

  4. #4
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    archaeological damage from trailbuilding?

    Al Gore would call it global berming...

  5. #5
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    Don't blame me. Last time I voted for Jerry Brown for President!!!!!

    All I'm saying it, how about you let it die down a bit, maybe even grovel some, and when the 6 months is up, you revisit? Maybe in the meantime, you work with the majority of Native Americans to prove your claim that they don't care about artifacts, etc.

    Have a drink on me Friday!
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  6. #6
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    TD:

    My dad's entire career (after serving in Vietnam from the draft) was Forest Service law enforcement - I have heard countless stories he has been involved with (WA, CA, OR, ID, MT, AK, AZ & probably other places). I agree that some stuff in the FS is silly. We are a very litigious society anymore. From growing up in that environment and hearing your rants it is very amusing. I mean, you have to really F-up to be cited. That is amusing just by itself but beyond that is the ego (like Limbaugh) to actually pull off the narcissistic posting and dribble for "entertainment".

    +1 kewl point for breaking the law and getting the street (or trail) cred - I am entertained
    +1 kewl point for pulling off all the drama - I am entertained

    Take those 2 valuable kewl points with you on your hiatus. Take all that passion and go ride, hang with the wife, partake, and burn off that extra energy...bring back ride reports, fresh perspectives, post pics, and tell stories...or not.

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=Casual Observer;9385155]Don't blame me. Last time I voted for Jerry Brown for President!!!!!

    All I'm saying it, how about you let it die down a bit, maybe even grovel some, and when the 6 months is up, you revisit? Maybe in the meantime, you work with the majority of Native Americans to prove your claim that they don't care about artifacts, etc.

    Have a drink on me Friday![/QUOTE
    CO:

    I loved Jerry Brown as mayor of Oakland. He wanted to have military schools to give the youth of Oakland a better chance to get a decent education. People hated him for that, like according to Phil there are a number of Sedoan mountain bikers who hate me for those well constructed trail improvements to give the masses a better user experience. Don't worry I am not doing anymore trail improvements, I have been cured of that worthy cause.

    I met with Phil recently and he told me about all those TD haters that don't like me for sharing our wonderful Sedona trails with the masses. He says I have let the FS know where all the cool trails are to ride and without me having done my comprehensive maps the FS would be clueless about trails like Gunslinger, Christmas Wash and Damifino. That is hard for me to believe but it may be true due to all the internet Intel being available over the net.

    He also asked me "who has the right decide"? This is a big subject that the FS is wrestling with, with the mountain bike community. Phil has done thousands of hours of volunteer work for the FS, therefore I am for Phil being the guy who decides where a new trail or trail improvement goes in. After all if someone else decides on a different spot for a trail or trail improvement are they going to expect Phil to build the trail they want because they don't have the skills to do all the heavy lifting? It's more enjoyable building your own trail improvement than someone elses idea.

    The other problem is that Phil is only a volunteer worker so does have the right to tell the FS employees where he wants a trail improvement or new trail to go? That really been a slippery slope. How is it that Phil knows more about trail building then any other person at the FS??? He with the help of Jennifer came up with the new Sedona build technique that I fully support.

    When we first built the Aeria trail it was discussed how to more efficiently build the trail. I came up with the idea of riding the trail in at the end of each day during periods there was moisture still present in the soil. This was a technique never considered by the FS and is now a major technique of the Sedona syle of trail building. As long as the initial trail was built to a safe standard prior to riding it, why not let the experienced bike riding group ride in a freshly cut trail to compact the newly completed trail tread?

    Also part of the technique is initially leaving the brush very narrow to keep riders on the minimalist built trail that is left for mountain bikers to ride the trail into a completed state. After the trail tread is established I contended that the brush could be widened to improve the user experience. Phil and Jennifer are totally opposed to additional brushing, so the new Sedona trail building manual has a maximun limit of 34". It is felt tighter brush will slow riders down, so that is the current accepted protocol even though there could be line of site issues with oncoming riders.

    I am not sure what the maximum height limit is for brushing especially when equestrians will be using the trail. The equestrians are not going to be happy with limbs that will cause them to make major ducking while doing there ride.

    I as a mountain biker I don't want equestrians on mountain bike and hiking trails because they tear up the trailtread so much, but I do recognize they are entitled to a safe riding experience so I am not sure what height limit has been established.

    There are a number of trees with lower branches that have been butchered by someone who isn't happy with the low brush method. Why a mountain biker or hiker would cut down lower hanging brush that doesn't impede their travel is somewhat of a mystery. Since there is horse manure and hoof prints on the trail where the lower branches are cut on might think an equestrian may have felt their user experience was being disregarded and they might feel justified cutting an unsafe branch impeding their ride.

    For creating this new Sedona trail building manual I believe Jennifer and Phil have moved Sedona trail building forward and I totally support what they are trying to do with that type of building. Do others totally support those techniques I think the jury is out on that since it bucks years of building being done a different way.

    TD

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=traildoc;9385391]
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Don't blame me. Last time I voted for Jerry Brown for President!!!!!

    All I'm saying it, how about you let it die down a bit, maybe even grovel some, and when the 6 months is up, you revisit? Maybe in the meantime, you work with the majority of Native Americans to prove your claim that they don't care about artifacts, etc.

    Have a drink on me Friday![/QUOTE
    CO:

    I loved Jerry Brown as mayor of Oakland. He wanted to have military schools to give the youth of Oakland a better chance to get a decent education. People hated him for that, like according to Phil there are a number of Sedoan mountain bikers who hate me for those well constructed trail improvements to give the masses a better user experience. Don't worry I am not doing anymore trail improvements, I have been cured of that worthy cause.

    I met with Phil recently and he told me about all those TD haters that don't like me for sharing our wonderful Sedona trails with the masses. He says I have let the FS know where all the cool trails are to ride and without me having done my comprehensive maps the FS would be clueless about trails like Gunslinger, Christmas Wash and Damifino. That is hard for me to believe but it may be true due to all the internet Intel being available over the net.

    He also asked me "who has the right decide"? This is a big subject that the FS is wrestling with, with the mountain bike community. Phil has done thousands of hours of volunteer work for the FS, therefore I am for Phil being the guy who decides where a new trail or trail improvement goes in. After all if someone else decides on a different spot for a trail or trail improvement are they going to expect Phil to build the trail they want because they don't have the skills to do all the heavy lifting? It's more enjoyable building your own trail improvement than someone elses idea.

    The other problem is that Phil is only a volunteer worker so does have the right to tell the FS employees where he wants a trail improvement or new trail to go? That really been a slippery slope. How is it that Phil knows more about trail building then any other person at the FS??? He with the help of Jennifer came up with the new Sedona build technique that I fully support.

    When we first built the Aeria trail it was discussed how to more efficiently build the trail. I came up with the idea of riding the trail in at the end of each day during periods there was moisture still present in the soil. This was a technique never considered by the FS and is now a major technique of the Sedona syle of trail building. As long as the initial trail was built to a safe standard prior to riding it, why not let the experienced bike riding group ride in a freshly cut trail to compact the newly completed trail tread?

    Also part of the technique is initially leaving the brush very narrow to keep riders on the minimalist built trail that is left for mountain bikers to ride the trail into a completed state. After the trail tread is established I contended that the brush could be widened to improve the user experience. Phil and Jennifer are totally opposed to additional brushing, so the new Sedona trail building manual has a maximun limit of 34". It is felt tighter brush will slow riders down, so that is the current accepted protocol even though there could be line of site issues with oncoming riders.

    I am not sure what the maximum height limit is for brushing especially when equestrians will be using the trail. The equestrians are not going to be happy with limbs that will cause them to make major ducking while doing there ride.

    I as a mountain biker I don't want equestrians on mountain bike and hiking trails because they tear up the trailtread so much, but I do recognize they are entitled to a safe riding experience so I am not sure what height limit has been established.

    There are a number of trees with lower branches that have been butchered by someone who isn't happy with the low brush method. Why a mountain biker or hiker would cut down lower hanging brush that doesn't impede their travel is somewhat of a mystery. Since there is horse manure and hoof prints on the trail where the lower branches are cut on might think an equestrian may have felt their user experience was being disregarded and they might feel justified cutting an unsafe branch impeding their ride.

    For creating this new Sedona trail building manual I believe Jennifer and Phil have moved Sedona trail building forward and I totally support what they are trying to do with that type of building. Do others totally support those techniques I think the jury is out on that since it bucks years of building being done a different way.

    TD
    Sorry TD, I can't read all this.

    Good luck and have fun on vacation.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  9. #9
    Meatbomb
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    Dude.. You are a long winded Drama Queen...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dragon View Post
    TD:

    My dad's entire career (after serving in Vietnam from the draft) was Forest Service law enforcement - I have heard countless stories he has been involved with (WA, CA, OR, ID, MT, AK, AZ & probably other places). I agree that some stuff in the FS is silly. We are a very litigious society anymore. From growing up in that environment and hearing your rants it is very amusing. I mean, you have to really F-up to be cited. That is amusing just by itself but beyond that is the ego (like Limbaugh) to actually pull off the narcissistic posting and dribble for "entertainment".

    +1 kewl point for breaking the law and getting the street (or trail) cred - I am entertained
    +1 kewl point for pulling off all the drama - I am entertained

    Take those 2 valuable kewl points with you on your hiatus. Take all that passion and go ride, hang with the wife, partake, and burn off that extra energy...bring back ride reports, fresh perspectives, post pics, and tell stories...or not.
    d:

    Thanks for your insight from your point of view. I will take your advice and stop the Rush Limbaugh style of trying to put a positive spin on the work I did on Tea Cup.
    I have recently found out dragging a small fallen tree off a trail is illegal and subject to citation. If you came across such a tree that was impeding a trail what would be the technique you would use to address the tree being in the trail blocking traffic?

    TD

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    If you came across such a tree that was impeding a trail what would be the technique you would use to address the tree being in the trail blocking traffic?

    TD
    Bunny hop...
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    If you came across such a tree that was impeding a trail what would be the technique you would use to address the tree being in the trail blocking traffic?

    TD
    OOOHHHH....OOOHHH...OOOHHH...PICK ME...PICK ME...I KNOW...I KNOW!!! (raising hand jumping around like a 3rd grader high on pixie stix)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsittman View Post
    OOOHHHH....OOOHHH...OOOHHH...PICK ME...PICK ME...I KNOW...I KNOW!!! (raising hand jumping around like a 3rd grader high on pixie stix)
    OK Dig D What Would You DO??????????????????????

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsittman View Post
    OOOHHHH....OOOHHH...OOOHHH...PICK ME...PICK ME...I KNOW...I KNOW!!! (raising hand jumping around like a 3rd grader high on pixie stix)
    Arnold Horshack.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  15. #15
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    I highly doubt it was "dragging a small fallen tree off a trail is illegal and subject to citation" that got you into the trouble you are in.

    Your god complex will continue to cause you problems.

  16. #16
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    + 1 on the bunny hop!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    d:

    Thanks for your insight from your point of view. I will take your advice and stop the Rush Limbaugh style of trying to put a positive spin on the work I did on Tea Cup.
    I have recently found out dragging a small fallen tree off a trail is illegal and subject to citation. If you came across such a tree that was impeding a trail what would be the technique you would use to address the tree being in the trail blocking traffic?
    TD
    You recently found that out? Okay, let's get this out of the way now so you cannot play the "ignorance line" with "Smokey Bear" and/or "Woodsy Owl"...the below is for you. Your welcome.

    [Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 36, Volume 2, Parts 200 to 299]
    [Revised as of July 1, 1998]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 36CFR261.20]

    [Page 341]

    TITLE 36--PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY

    CHAPTER II--FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

    PART 261--PROHIBITIONS--Table of Contents

    Subpart A--General Prohibitions

    Sec. 261.20 Unauthorized use of ``Smokey Bear'' and ``Woodsy Owl'' symbol.

    (a) Manufacture, importation, reproduction, or use of ``Smokey
    Bear'' except as provided under Secs. 271.2, 271.3, or 271.4 is
    prohibited.
    (b) Manufacture, importation, reproduction, or use of ``Woodsy Owl''
    except as provided under Secs. 272.2, 272.3, or 272.4 is prohibited.
    [42 FR 2957, Jan. 14, 1977; 42 FR 24739, May 16, 1977]

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    I highly doubt it was "dragging a small fallen tree off a trail is illegal and subject to citation" that got you into the trouble you are in.

    Your god complex will continue to cause you problems.
    + 1. I bet none of this would have happened if TD just went about his business. But he had to try and show up the FS and others and it bit him in the A$$. You reap what you sow.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dragon View Post
    You recently found that out? Okay, let's get this out of the way now so you cannot play the "ignorance line" with "Smokey Bear" and/or "Woodsy Owl"...the below is for you. Your welcome.

    [Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 36, Volume 2, Parts 200 to 299]
    [Revised as of July 1, 1998]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 36CFR261.20]

    [Page 341]

    TITLE 36--PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY

    CHAPTER II--FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

    PART 261--PROHIBITIONS--Table of Contents

    Subpart A--General Prohibitions

    Sec. 261.20 Unauthorized use of ``Smokey Bear'' and ``Woodsy Owl'' symbol.

    (a) Manufacture, importation, reproduction, or use of ``Smokey
    Bear'' except as provided under Secs. 271.2, 271.3, or 271.4 is
    prohibited.
    (b) Manufacture, importation, reproduction, or use of ``Woodsy Owl''
    except as provided under Secs. 272.2, 272.3, or 272.4 is prohibited.
    [42 FR 2957, Jan. 14, 1977; 42 FR 24739, May 16, 1977]
    I was aware of the Smokey the Bear Issue, the Woodsy Owl situation is new to me.

    TD

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    + 1. I bet none of this would have happened if TD just went about his business. But he had to try and show up the FS and others and it bit him in the A$$. You reap what you sow.
    Not so much what he sows... he's a drama queen like an ex wife.

  21. #21
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    Man if you spent half the time doing the paper work and getting the approval that is required of everyone rather then *****in and moaning about it on here, this would not be a problem would it?

    YOUR NOT ABOVE THE LAW GET OVER IT.....
    and the lurker returns to the dark corner

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    d:

    Thanks for your insight from your point of view. I will take your advice and stop the Rush Limbaugh style of trying to put a positive spin on the work I did on Tea Cup.
    I have recently found out dragging a small fallen tree off a trail is illegal and subject to citation. If you came across such a tree that was impeding a trail what would be the technique you would use to address the tree being in the trail blocking traffic?

    TD
    Well then maybe if you were to move that tree you might not want to talk about it on the internet? Just a thought.......

  23. #23
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    Trail Dik

    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I assume .......

    blah blah blah

    ???????

    TD

    WAY tl:dr

    Cliff's Notes version please?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Well then maybe if you were to move that tree you might not want to talk about it on the internet? Just a thought.......
    This! ^
    Last edited by FMX_DBC; 06-07-2012 at 09:09 AM.

  25. #25
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    Upset

    Way to kick a guy when he's down

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