Results 1 to 37 of 37
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Casual Observer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    9,193

    While I'll never own a Specialized: Take 2

    Will these guys learn their lesson?

    https://www.facebook.com/epixgear
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  2. #2
    parenting for gnarness
    Reputation: chollaball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    6,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Will these guys learn their lesson?

    https://www.facebook.com/epixgear

    I recently heard that Revelate was forced to change their name due to S's overreaching, and this article backs it up.

    Specialized's disastrous trademark case is unnecessary to defend the brand - VeloNews.com


    I have never had an adult spec bike. A few shoes etc. that are ok, but I almost never buy their gear anymore cause you can do better and cheaper from other brands, since they never discount. I really like their 16inch hotrock. I liked their 20inch when i bought it, but now its becoming nothing but frustration. In S's defense, kids' bikes are not built for real riding and my daughter is riding it hard. But, their BS way of making hard-to-find or semi-unique parts and forcing you to get them through their shops is making me hate them. Parts on their website I can not order, must order via a store and both Landis and DNA marked it up over S's own website -- normally the LBS making some extra vs. the internet is fine, but S's whole thing is all their dealers offer the same price so in this case the website said $13, Landis charged me $20, DNA $25 for a dang deraileur hanger on a $350 bike.

    Anyway, this experience coupled with their being a great big corporate *****BAG and I will do everything I can never to spend a dime with them again.

  3. #3
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
    Reputation: longhairmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,573
    its always going to be about big business trying to squash any and all smaller competition. just take a look at amazon and walmart

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Casual Observer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    9,193
    Quote Originally Posted by longhairmike View Post
    its always going to be about big business trying to squash any and all smaller competition. just take a look at amazon and walmart
    Who is John Galt?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    486
    Don't we have better things to do? Do we really need another "specialized sucks" thread? If you don't like them, don't buy their stuff and they will go out of business. End of story. Move on, nothing to see here.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,137
    [QUOTE=chollaball;10871749]I recently heard that Revelate was forced to change their name due to S's overreaching, and this article backs it up.

    Specialized's disastrous trademark case is unnecessary to defend the brand - VeloNews.com


    I have never had an adult spec bike. A few shoes etc. that are ok, but I almost never buy their gear anymore cause you can do better and cheaper from other brands, since they never discount. I really like their 16inch hotrock. I liked their 20inch when i bought it, but now its becoming nothing but frustration. In S's defense, kids' bikes are not built for real riding and my daughter is riding it hard. But, their BS way of making hard-to-find or semi-unique parts and forcing you to get them through their shops is making me hate them. Parts on their website I can not order, must order via a store and both Landis and DNA marked it up over S's own website -- normally the LBS making some extra vs. the internet is fine, but S's whole thing is all their dealers offer the same price so in this case the website said $13, Landis charged me $20, DNA $25 for a dang deraileur hanger on a $350 bike.

    Anyway, this experience coupled with their being a great big corporate *****BAG and I will do everything I can never to spend a dime with them again.[/QU



    I get that you don't like their business practices and bullying, but they make a damn good bike. I have ridden many spec bikes and love them and I am getting kind of tired of hearing people bash their product.

    Your pissed at spec because a bike shop charges more for the product than another bike shop.

    Your opinion of their product, except the lowest end mountain bike they make, doesn't carry much weight. I don't think they will miss your dime.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  7. #7
    Always a good day to ride
    Reputation: bik_ryder's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    120
    Quote Originally Posted by aevanlloyd View Post
    Don't we have better things to do? Do we really need another "specialized sucks" thread? If you don't like them, don't buy their stuff and they will go out of business. End of story. Move on, nothing to see here.
    There is always the option to NOT click on a MTBR topic that you do not care to read about. YOU are in control of what you read and do not read. Just saying.

    Specialized Threatens Another Small Business: Epix Gear | riding against the grain

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    486
    Quote Originally Posted by bik_ryder View Post
    There is always the option to NOT click on a MTBR topic that you do not care to read about. YOU are in control of what you read and do not read. Just saying.

    Specialized Threatens Another Small Business: Epix Gear | riding against the grain
    Wow, I wasn't aware of that. I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Casual Observer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    9,193
    Quote Originally Posted by aevanlloyd View Post
    Don't we have better things to do? Do we really need another "specialized sucks" thread? If you don't like them, don't buy their stuff and they will go out of business. End of story. Move on, nothing to see here.
    ^^^^missing the point.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  10. #10
    parenting for gnarness
    Reputation: chollaball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    6,046
    [QUOTE=sfgiantsfan;10872008]
    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    I recently heard that Revelate was forced to change their name due to S's overreaching, and this article backs it up.

    Specialized's disastrous trademark case is unnecessary to defend the brand - VeloNews.com


    I have never had an adult spec bike. A few shoes etc. that are ok, but I almost never buy their gear anymore cause you can do better and cheaper from other brands, since they never discount. I really like their 16inch hotrock. I liked their 20inch when i bought it, but now its becoming nothing but frustration. In S's defense, kids' bikes are not built for real riding and my daughter is riding it hard. But, their BS way of making hard-to-find or semi-unique parts and forcing you to get them through their shops is making me hate them. Parts on their website I can not order, must order via a store and both Landis and DNA marked it up over S's own website -- normally the LBS making some extra vs. the internet is fine, but S's whole thing is all their dealers offer the same price so in this case the website said $13, Landis charged me $20, DNA $25 for a dang deraileur hanger on a $350 bike.

    Anyway, this experience coupled with their being a great big corporate *****BAG and I will do everything I can never to spend a dime with them again.[/QU



    I get that you don't like their business practices and bullying, but they make a damn good bike. I have ridden many spec bikes and love them and I am getting kind of tired of hearing people bash their product.

    Your pissed at spec because a bike shop charges more for the product than another bike shop.

    Your opinion of their product, except the lowest end mountain bike they make, doesn't carry much weight. I don't think they will miss your dime.
    Do you think a product can stand alone from the biz practices that go into that product?
    Do you know anything about their policies of price consistency?
    Do you know anything about how they operate their dealer channel?
    Did you read the part where i acknowledged the limitations on kids bikes but said I am pissed at their policies?
    Are you one of those guys who likes marketing materials and big hugs from people paid to like you?

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: chongoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,920
    Quote Originally Posted by aevanlloyd View Post
    Wow, I wasn't aware of that. I'll be sure to keep that in mind.
    I'm kinda hoping that you'll keep posting here to reinforce the "move along, nothing to see here" message

    Someone set me straight thought... Here's how I see it...
    A company has success, copyrights some stuff, hires lawyers to protect it (who likely get to bill Spesh. when they find someone who might be infringing on the copyright).

    Spesh. definitely looks overzealous here, and seem to be shooting themselves in the foot, but doesn't the new business owner have some responsibility to take caution of the name they choose? If it's close to a copyright of a big company shouldn't they take care to name it something else, or get permission to use it? Shouldn't be assumed that Spesh lawyers are going to go after anything that's close since they're lawyers?
    I'm glad the guy gets to keep the shop name in the end, and that the big Spesh boss has apologized, but I'm not quite following the outrage. I'm with Cholla, and the main reason I avoid Spesh is the business model of having to buy everything through a Spesh shop and the lack of price flexibility, but people should know by now that lawyers exist and will do what ever they can to generate bills for their clients. Maybe new business adventurers should consult a thesaurus?

  12. #12
    Always a good day to ride
    Reputation: bik_ryder's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    120
    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    I'm kinda hoping that you'll keep posting here to reinforce the "move along, nothing to see here" message

    Someone set me straight thought... Here's how I see it...
    A company has success, copyrights some stuff, hires lawyers to protect it (who likely get to bill Spesh. when they find someone who might be infringing on the copyright).

    Spesh. definitely looks overzealous here, and seem to be shooting themselves in the foot, but doesn't the new business owner have some responsibility to take caution of the name they choose? If it's close to a copyright of a big company shouldn't they take care to name it something else, or get permission to use it? Shouldn't be assumed that Spesh lawyers are going to go after anything that's close since they're lawyers?
    I'm glad the guy gets to keep the shop name in the end, and that the big Spesh boss has apologized, but I'm not quite following the outrage. I'm with Cholla, and the main reason I avoid Spesh is the business model of having to buy everything through a Spesh shop and the lack of price flexibility, but people should know by now that lawyers exist and will do what ever they can to generate bills for their clients. Maybe new business adventurers should consult a thesaurus?
    From: Specialized, Day Three. | riding against the grain

    Part of the problem, which they perhaps could not have anticipated, is that ASI stepped in and made Specialized look childish and unprofessional. This is more or less how the situation has played out:

    1992:

    ASI / Fuji starts producing a bike called the Roubaix. They pursue legal trademark protection.

    2003:

    Specialized wants to produce a bike called the Roubaix, and does a licensing agreement with ASI.

    After 2003:

    Specialized registers Roubaix in Canada. According to ASI, this violates the licensure agreement.

    2013:

    Cafe Roubaix: ”I’ve always wanted to run a bike shop.”

    Specialized: ”That’s my ball.”

    Cafe Roubaix: ”Uhh, can we play together?”

    Specialized: ”No. Give me my ball. I’m going home.”

    Cafe Roubaix: ”Are you sure we can’t play together?”

    Specialized: ”Give me the ball or I’ll beat you up.”

    Cafe Roubaix: (Shouts to all of its friends on the playground): “Hey, Specialized is being a bully.

    100,000 Internet People: ”Hey, Specialized, go pick on someone your own size.”

    ASI: ”Actually, that’s my ball. Specialized, if you’re not careful, we’ll take it away from you. Cafe Roubaix, you can play with the ball.”

    Specialized: ”Yeah, uhh…Cafe Roubaix, you can play with the ball.”

    Maybe Specialized was going to respond differently sooner–and maybe not. Maybe their hand was forced by the internet or by ASI. But now, their gesture of contacting Cafe Roubaix seems less like an earnest effort to put this behind themselves, and more a grim acknowledgment of the fact that the internets have turned against them. I still give Mike Sinyard credit for making that call–whatever the motivation, it’s an important gesture.

    But this is why it is so critical that Specialized not drop the ball now. They have to strike while the iron’s hot and make some significant changes to their policies, in a public way, to show that they have learned their lesson, and will play nice on the playground. So go back to the Open Letter, read it again, and realize that you’re just at Step 1, Specialized.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Casual Observer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    9,193
    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    I'm kinda hoping that you'll keep posting here to reinforce the "move along, nothing to see here" message

    Someone set me straight thought... Here's how I see it...
    A company has success, copyrights some stuff, hires lawyers to protect it (who likely get to bill Spesh. when they find someone who might be infringing on the copyright).

    Spesh. definitely looks overzealous here, and seem to be shooting themselves in the foot, but doesn't the new business owner have some responsibility to take caution of the name they choose? If it's close to a copyright of a big company shouldn't they take care to name it something else, or get permission to use it? Shouldn't be assumed that Spesh lawyers are going to go after anything that's close since they're lawyers?
    I'm glad the guy gets to keep the shop name in the end, and that the big Spesh boss has apologized, but I'm not quite following the outrage. I'm with Cholla, and the main reason I avoid Spesh is the business model of having to buy everything through a Spesh shop and the lack of price flexibility, but people should know by now that lawyers exist and will do what ever they can to generate bills for their clients. Maybe new business adventurers should consult a thesaurus?
    I'm just digging how these Epix guys are jumping on the "whoa, it's me. Looks what Spec is doing to us now, after they tried to close down that small shop in Canada."

    Yea, I agree companies should do their due diligence. But damn, talk about a stretch, at least in the LBSes case.

    I'm just crossing my fingers that they don't go after Epic Rides. And speaking of Epics, anybody remember when 24 Hrs of Adrenalin sued the folks who put on the 24 Hrs of Moab, claiming their race format was patented/trademarked/whatever?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  14. #14
    Always a good day to ride
    Reputation: bik_ryder's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    120
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    I'm just digging how these Epix guys are jumping on the "whoa, it's me. Looks what Spec is doing to us now, after they tried to close down that small shop in Canada."

    Yea, I agree companies should do their due diligence. But damn, talk about a stretch, at least in the LBSes case.

    I'm just crossing my fingers that they don't go after Epic Rides. And speaking of Epics, anybody remember when 24 Hrs of Adrenalin sued the folks who put on the 24 Hrs of Moab, claiming their race format was patented/trademarked/whatever?
    I kinda hope they go after Epic Rides. Can you imagine the support the cycling community would show the Epic Rides crew if Special-Ed tried to sue them?

    It would be EPIC and might be the ultimate demise of Special-Ed!

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Casual Observer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    9,193
    Quote Originally Posted by bik_ryder View Post
    I kinda hope they go after Epic Rides. Can you imagine the support the cycling community would show the Epic Rides crew if Special-Ed tried to sue them?

    It would be EPIC and might be the ultimate demise of Special-Ed!
    "Alllez, Allez!!!!!!!!!!! That would make me so happy, I might hop a rock.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,287
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    whoa, it's me
    ?????
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails While I'll never own a Specialized: Take 2-words1.jpg  


  17. #17
    No Clue Crew
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,121
    Specialized certainly seems to be stepping in it lately. Likely time for a corporate rethink of strategy.

    I don't currently own a Specialized bike. However, I've owned a bunch and every one has been rad. Don't agree with all their business practices, love their bikes.

  18. #18
    parenting for gnarness
    Reputation: chollaball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    6,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    "Alllez, Allez!!!!!!!!!!!
    you cant say that, I trademarked it

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: CridgeMTBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    307

    While I'll never own a Specialized: Take 2


  20. #20
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    23,997
    Like this?

    While I'll never own a Specialized: Take 2-gedc0155s.jpg
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  21. #21
    Got a suspension fork
    Reputation: randyharris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    2,431
    They made a classy apology.

    Mike Sinyard?s Open Letter to the Industry
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: papatini's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    116
    Quote Originally Posted by randyharris View Post
    They made a classy apology.

    Mike Sinyard?s Open Letter to the Industry
    This IS a good apology, a real apology. I've been quiet through this because, while I proudly own two excellent Specialized bikes, babies are starving and women are battered around the world. I just can't see how this is important.

    But mountain bikers are a socially and politically aware community, so this debate needs to happen. A professional and personal response to the issue, with a reasonable explanation of events, ends it for me.

    There will be another story like this in a few months. I hope I am on the trail at the time.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: chipolopolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    694
    Quote Originally Posted by papatini View Post
    This IS a good apology, a real apology. I've been quiet through this because, while I proudly own two excellent Specialized bikes, babies are starving and women are battered around the world. I just can't see how this is important.

    But mountain bikers are a socially and politically aware community, so this debate needs to happen. A professional and personal response to the issue, with a reasonable explanation of events, ends it for me.

    There will be another story like this in a few months. I hope I am on the trail at the time.
    You make perfect sense, and I agree with your assessment.

    Further, I too own Specialized and Specialized only. I think they offer and continue to offer bikes right on the cutting edge of what's possible in bikes. For example my new S-Works Epic just replaced the Camelbak.

    I really believe what the underlying issue of people not liking Specialized is, humans predisposition to root for the underdog. The big kid on the block always has and always will have its detractors. Jeff Gordon, The Lakers, The Yankee's and Kobe Bryant all have their haters.

    Do we as a community honesty think that our favorite bike manufacturer wouldn't do a porportianally similar thing to protect their trademark(s).

    Do they ask for a premium for their bikes? Yes. Are their concept stores more expensive than they should be? Perhaps. When I personally weight all these things out, I vote yes with a big red "S".

    Steve
    Drinkin the S-Works Kool-aid

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Centurion_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    732
    This IS a good apology, a real apology.
    Two questions should arise with regard to his "good and real apology."

    Did he offer it solely because of the bad publicity, or did he really consider what he did, regret it, and apologize? In other words...is this apology simply more marketing?

    The other question is, will his behavior (with regard to the way he aggressively pursues real and perceived copyright infringements) change?

    If he just gave this one guy a pass because of the publicity, and continues to go after everyone else and nothing changes, what good is it?

    Talk is cheap. Lets see how he and his company act this out.

    ...babies are starving and women are battered around the world. I just can't see how this is important.
    Amen to that.

  25. #25
    Meatbomb
    Reputation: Phillbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    5,612
    Quote Originally Posted by chipolopolo View Post
    For example my new S-Works Epic just replaced the Camelbak.
    You wear an Epic on your back? How big is the hydration bladder?

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: azjonboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,509
    Quote Originally Posted by chipolopolo View Post

    I really believe what the underlying issue of people not liking Specialized is, humans predisposition to root for the underdog.



    Steve
    I personally don't like Specialized because of their action when I broke a frame years ago. Stumpy FSR Pro. Top end frame that cracked within their warranty period. They had no frames like it left so offered to send me the current year frame one level down. Their reasoning was since they offered a one year newer frame to replace mine, that should work. My shop and I both refused the offer since the warranty said like for like.

    After much arguing they did send the new, top line frame. I left it in the box and sold it on ebay the next day and won't ride their product to this day.
    If you're lucky enough to be in the mountains,
    you're lucky enough.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: chipolopolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    694
    Quote Originally Posted by azjonboy View Post
    I personally don't like Specialized because of their action when I broke a frame years ago. Stumpy FSR Pro. Top end frame that cracked within their warranty period. They had no frames like it left so offered to send me the current year frame one level down. Their reasoning was since they offered a one year newer frame to replace mine, that should work. My shop and I both refused the offer since the warranty said like for like.

    After much arguing they did send the new, top line frame. I left it in the box and sold it on ebay the next day and won't ride their product to this day.
    There are anecdotal stories that can support any position. A lot of it revolves around the service philosophy of the shop (I think). My first "S" was a 2008, 26" S-Works Epic. The frame cracked in Nov 2010. They (DNA & Spec.) replaced it with a 2010 frame, shock and brain, no questions asked. Early 2011, fork needed a rebuild, DNA would rather send it in to Spec to get rebuilt. They box it up, send it Fed-Ex. Fed-Ex promptly loses box. Specialized replaced the fork with a 2011 for no charge and no attitude.

    Loyalties are built over time, They (DNA & Spec) have mine.

    Specialized has to protect their intellectual properties. Any pioneering company that does the majority of the heavy lifting, technology wise must. They spend as much or more on R&D as any other manufacture, they have to protect it. If a small boutique company were to build a brain fork, using patented or trademarked technologies, companies like Specialized have no other option other than to file suit if the offending party refuses to stop. If they don't, their not as smart as I think they are. If they do, they get their azzes handed to them on the internet.

    And Philbo; If you were to do a small amount of research, you would see that the post I made referring to replacing a Camelbak, There is a multi-tool incorporated into the frame. There is a chain tool, w/ 2 links hidden in the steerer tube. The new Epic's have two bottle bosses, one of which incorporates a small plastic case that will hold, two tubes, a couple Co2's and tire tools. The rest of needed for a 2-3 hour ride, I can put in my jersey pocket (a third 20oz. bottle and food)

    Regards,

    Steve
    Drinkin the S-Works Kool-aid

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    486
    Quote Originally Posted by azjonboy View Post
    I personally don't like Specialized because of their action when I broke a frame years ago. Stumpy FSR Pro. Top end frame that cracked within their warranty period. They had no frames like it left so offered to send me the current year frame one level down. Their reasoning was since they offered a one year newer frame to replace mine, that should work. My shop and I both refused the offer since the warranty said like for like.

    After much arguing they did send the new, top line frame. I left it in the box and sold it on ebay the next day and won't ride their product to this day.
    That must have been rough man. I mean wow, you broke your frame and they replaced it. I can see why you hate Specialized. Those bastards.

  29. #29
    No Clue Crew
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,121
    I try not to be judgmental about people's experiences. Sounds like Specialized replaced a broken frame. Clearly, you were there and I wasn't so there much be more to it than that.

    I will say, I broke a Specialized frame, too, some time ago. I had the best warranty experience I've ever had in the bike industry. It was over the Christmas holiday season. Eight total days passed between diagnosis and me having a new frame in-hand and rebuilt by the shop.

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,781
    Quote Originally Posted by chipolopolo View Post
    I really believe what the underlying issue of people not liking Specialized is, humans predisposition to root for the underdog. The big kid on the block always has and always will have its detractors. Jeff Gordon, The Lakers, The Yankee's and Kobe Bryant all have their haters.
    Well, like Wal-Mart, they are partially to blame for major offshoring of production overseas. They also give the impression that they are an American bike company even though 49% of the company was sold to a Chinese sporting goods manufacture (Merida) several years ago(2001).
    Killing it with close inspection.

  31. #31
    No Clue Crew
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,121
    I definitely don't want to be "that guy" defending Specialized. As I said, every one of their bikes I've owned has been rad. But to compare the company to Walmart? Really? And to blame the company for offshore manufacturing?

    I was racing BMX in the late '70s, a couple years before Specialized ever introduced a bike, and I'm pretty sure most stuff even then was produced in Asia.

    Can't blame you for not liking the company's business practices, but just say that.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by chipolopolo View Post
    The new Epic's have two bottle bosses, one of which incorporates a small plastic case that will hold, two tubes, a couple Co2's and tire tools.
    Three years of engineering and major funds spent on marketing dollars for moving a seatbag to below a bottle mount. Brilliant!

  33. #33
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    23,997
    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    Well, like Wal-Mart, they are partially to blame for major offshoring of production overseas. They also give the impression that they are an American bike company even though 49% of the company was sold to a Chinese sporting goods manufacture (Merida) several years ago(2001).
    No way, it's you, your neighbors on your left and right, your parents, your children, all of those people are responsible for offshore and overseas production. You create the demand, and yes, these companies fill it, but you are the ones that decide you can have a "better" whateveritis by buying the cheaper one or the higher-end one for cheaper than the same homegrown costs. We all preach jobs and ecomony, blah blah, but we sell each other out in an instant. I'm all for corporate responsibility and regulated capitalism, but put the blame where it lies, the consumer. How many people have accepted a lower standard and quality of life to keep the money in the US? At best some of us try to justify the attitude by targeting specific markets or products, while the majority of our spending habits further overseas production.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    426
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No way, it's you, your neighbors on your left and right, your parents, your children, all of those people are responsible for offshore and overseas production. You create the demand, and yes, these companies fill it, but you are the ones that decide you can have a "better" whateveritis by buying the cheaper one or the higher-end one for cheaper than the same homegrown costs. We all preach jobs and ecomony, blah blah, but we sell each other out in an instant. I'm all for corporate responsibility and regulated capitalism, but put the blame where it lies, the consumer. How many people have accepted a lower standard and quality of life to keep the money in the US? At best some of us try to justify the attitude by targeting specific markets or products, while the majority of our spending habits further overseas production.

    Most of what you said I agree with, but I don't see how you have to accept a lower standard of living by buying USA made products , people love to spend money on crap they think they need (HENCE THE CONSTANT GARAGE SALES). Things I purchase that are made in the USA lasts a long time. Quality ALWAYS costs less in the long run.


    The Big 3 Bike Companies (Trek,Specialized, Cannondale) don't build bikes they are in the Marketing and Distribution business. They are like Starbucks, all the marketing is geared toward Brand Identity...loyalty. Those warranty replacement frames are only a fraction of the cost of a retail frame.

  35. #35
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    23,997
    Quote Originally Posted by Azpilot View Post
    Most of what you said I agree with, but I don't see how you have to except a lower standard of living by buying USA made products , people love to spend money on crap they think they need (HENCE THE CONSTANT GARAGE SALES). Things I purchase that are made in the USA lasts a long time. Quality ALWAYS costs less in the long run.
    Does that even make sense? Plenty of US automobiles were made in the US in the 70s and 80s and they were the absolute a$$ end of quality. If you want to pay for a fair working wage though, health benefits, responsible business practices, sustainable growth, and all the other things that come along with it, you aren't going to be able to purchase as much as you can buying an overseas product that doesn't have the overhead. That's just common sense to me. This doesn't mean that US products are poor, but by and large the population is interested in maximizing their gain in the short term, not the longer-term quality. Are you saying that if you buy a "us made" product that it will have inherently better quality than something else? How much will it cost compared to something else? Does this include the early gripshift stuff? How about rockshox before they moved production overseas? Lots of this stuff was just junk, until Italian bomber-chassis came along and GS became SRAM and bought Sachs, a german company that bailed their rear end out with the 1:1 actuation and chains that didn't fail all over the place.

    Show me how a US manufacturer can design, test, weld, hydroform, quality assure/control, market, distribute, support and sponsor and sell bikes for the same price as Trek or Giant. I'd love to see it. I've been to Titus's production facility (when it was in Phx) and I've worked in a shop where I've seen the implications of pricing and how much you have to sell things for to keep the lights on. It's a dream IMO to expect the same buying power if you spend the money in the US. The basic problem is that we simply have higher standards for how we treat people.

    I'd say quality has little to do with it. You can find extremely high quality overseas stuff (shimano, heck try to look at their failure rate per thousand components, it's astoundingly high quality), or you can find the cast-iron pot-metal junk that ends up in wal-mart.

    In the end, maximizing our buying power wins out, which may mean decent quality at a decent price, or crap quality at a steal, but we want it and we want it now, because that way when a business fails or goes bankrupt, we are isolated from and then we can eat and get fat and be happy...it until it happens to our business.

    Not only do those big 3 build bikes, but they constantly try to reinvent their lines and their products to keep them on top in changing markets. Like giants 27.5 move or not (I don't), it's the kind of movement and risk-taking that puts companies on top and keeps the newer competitors at bay. If they make a mistake and screw up, it allows someone else to come in and take their place. If they stagnate and just do the same thing forever, someone will always come along and design something lighter, faster, stronger, cheaper to manufacture, more efficient, and so on. This is why specialized has revamped the epic line so much, why they dedicated the xx1 component line to it, why they came out with the 29" enduro, why giant revamped all their bikes to 27.5, why trek did the DCRV and split-pivot suspension, and so on. Change for the sake of change isn't useful, but many of the changes present small improvements which keep our sport evolving. It keeps the competition high and we as consumers benefit from it. Only extreme-niche companies can afford to never change, but look at surly, they've reinvented themselves many times, from a 29er hipster company to a cargo-bike endurance company to a fat-bike (well, still hipster IMO) company, evolving their fat-line and so on. Are these big companies the best thing about mountain biking? Probably not, but I wouldn't discount their effect either. If they died or one went away, I'm sure someone else would pop up to fill the void, yet they all realize they have to constantly improve and better their products to continue to exist. The only constant in business IMO is change and the moment you stop finding new markets, expanding your products, innovating, and so on, you die. You might say that Spec has not changed because they still use a horst link or that trek hasn't changed much in a few years, but there are hundreds if not thousands of small refinements that are constantly made to the lines for each model year, from geometry tweaks to total redesigns. Go look at the first year epic and at a new carbon 29er epic. The only thing the same are the names.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,781
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    I definitely don't want to be "that guy" defending Specialized. As I said, every one of their bikes I've owned has been rad. But to compare the company to Walmart? Really? And to blame the company for offshore manufacturing?
    I am not saying Wal-Mart quality.. just saying that they are the power house when it comes to mountain bikes. They led to China... others followed if they wanted to stay in business and compete. The lack of manufacturing demand in the US has dwindle the supply chain so now it is impossible to build a decent quality US made MTB in the states anymore for a sane price. Cannondale and Titus were probably the last affordable frames made in the states. Specialized was US made until they sold out to the Merida in early 2000.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    I was racing BMX in the late '70s, a couple years before Specialized ever introduced a bike, and I'm pretty sure most stuff even then was produced in Asia.
    All of my BMX bikes from the late 80's to early 90's were US made.
    Killing it with close inspection.

  37. #37
    Always a good day to ride
    Reputation: bik_ryder's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    120
    I been riding a Spec for years and am embarrassed to be seen on it anymore. I have been a supporter and advocate for them for many years, but not anymore. The way they go about doing business is deplorable. The apology seems to be more self serving than a real apology.

    I still feel that Spec makes nice bikes, but so does most every other bike manufacturer out there. If it feels good to you, that is what you should ride.

    After this whole café Roubaix situation, I started to hear more about Spec's history and looked a little deeper into it. The more I looked, the less I liked.

    You know that original Stumpjumper that they are so famous for and is on display in the Smithsonian? They stole that design from Tom Ritchey/Gary Fisher!! Mike Sinyard, took their bike over to a Japanese manufacturer and asked them to copy it for him.

Similar Threads

  1. Specialized Vice vs. Specialized Tactic vs. Fox Flux vs. 661 Recon
    By Innota in forum Apparel and Protection
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-31-2013, 05:45 AM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-29-2013, 07:51 PM
  3. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-05-2012, 09:43 PM
  4. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-22-2011, 08:27 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •