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  1. #1
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    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????

    A call for community collaboration on future trails

    Sedona, AZ – The Red Rock Ranger District, in partnership with the City of Sedona and the Big Park Council, are seeking to create a non-motorized trail plan that reflects local values and recreation needs and promotes tourism for regional economic benefit while protecting the resources that draw people to this special area. Your help is needed!

    Local citizens are encouraged to join this collaborative effort by attending a kick-off meeting October 25, from 6 to 8 p.m. This event will be held at the Synagogue of the Jewish Community of Sedona, located on Meadowlark Drive and State Route 179.

    This is the first in a series of monthly meetings to update the local trail plan for our forest lands near Sedona and Big Park. All members of the public are welcome. Your ideas are vital for this community planning effort.

    Agenda items for the October 25 meeting will include: an overview of the process, discussion of desired outcomes, sharing of ideas/values and trail interests, brainstorm of concerns, monthly schedule, and developing a core working group.

    Annually, over 600,000 trail users enjoy National Forest trails in the Red Rock area. Popularity and use continues to increase, particularly for hiking and mountain biking.

    What will the future of Sedona mountain bike trails be and what new trail opportunities are appropriate?

    How can trails better connect with the community?


    These are some of the challenges that will be addressed.

  2. #2
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    Ill put up some flyers in all the quad stores in my area. This diverse group has a lot to offer sedona an its trails.

  3. #3
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    I won't be in town to attend the meeting, but if I were I would be for: the continued adoption of the current user built trails, the better signage of all system trails using a trail signage system similar to the new system in Moab, and lastly, I would be for the formation of a volunteer trail maintenance group that could do necessary maintenance on the adopted user built trails.

    I personally would be interested in knowing what the presidents of the SMBC and VVCC are for and what they will communicate at the 10/25 meeting.

  4. #4
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    We just want to leave our mark on the trails for those who come after us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    We just want to leave our mark on the trails for those who come after us.
    SS:

    Play along with me and pretend you are a pesky fly and I just nailed you with my trusty fly swatter.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    SS:

    Play along with me and pretend you are a pesky fly and I just nailed you with my trusty fly swatter.
    Cool! And you can be a fish I just reeled in with my hook and bait.

  7. #7
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    You're still here?

  8. #8
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    More question marks, please???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????


    Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Patrick View Post
    More question marks, please???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????


    Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    EP:

    Very creative post, thanks for posting it. Now do you or any other viewers have any experience with meetings like this and how you go about getting a good outcome for the mountain bike community?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    EP:

    Very creative post, thanks for posting it. Now do you or any other viewers have any experience with meetings like this and how you go about getting a good outcome for the mountain bike community?
    yes, a little.
    1. have a plan pre-discussed amongst the mtb stakeholders, so you appear with 1 voice to the powers-that-be.
    2. Plan should be realistic, have priorities and clear stages that can be discretely managed. 1 big plan will fail.
    3. If you cant get consensus amongst the mtbs, you are screwed and it will be a lot of yammering.

    Hopefully your call-out to the clubs will work, since Managers and Rangers etc. are drawn to the clubs for input - they think if you are not affiliated with a group, you cant count for much. Unfortunately that sounds like it will work against you and some of your friends, TD.

  11. #11
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    As a strategy guy....I would also add to Cholla's list that a 4th item should be inserted: Measurable outcome. You've got to ensure that whatever is proposed is measurable so that the powers that be have a clear method of establishing progress to whatever goal/task is taken on and is easily communicated back to the enabling functions (where the money comes from).

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    I really wish this wasn't on a weeknight...I'd be there for every meeting, but it's a drive from Mesa and I don't get off that early.

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    What is going on with the forum borders. I can't read this! =(

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    As a strategy guy....I would also add to Cholla's list that a 4th item should be inserted: Measurable outcome. You've got to ensure that whatever is proposed is measurable so that the powers that be have a clear method of establishing progress to whatever goal/task is taken on and is easily communicated back to the enabling functions (where the money comes from).
    Sure doesn't sound like government work.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

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    I think IMBA is going to be a key entity in trying to support mountain biking interests. As the self-appointed ambassador to Sedona mountain biking I have always tried to promote Sedona as a great mountain biking destination due to the diverse trail system.

    Unlike areas like Bend and Moab, there isn't a lot of community support for mountain biking as a recognized revenue generator, so most of the recognition comes from bike magazine articles, word of mouth and postings on MTBR.

    Whether the future meetings will amount to much support for additional mountain biking opportunities will be an interesting process to follow.

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    Achieve desired outcome?

    Bribery, you ignoramus!
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Bribery, you ignoramus!
    You have to wonder with these processes if there will really be transparency and that the outcome hasn't already been decided. Is there some way to evaluate the process to check if bias is a factor?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I think IMBA is going to be a key entity in trying to support mountain biking interests. As the self-appointed ambassador to Sedona mountain biking I have always tried to promote Sedona as a great mountain biking destination due to the diverse trail system.

    Unlike areas like Bend and Moab, there isn't a lot of community support for mountain biking as a recognized revenue generator, so most of the recognition comes from bike magazine articles, word of mouth and postings on MTBR.

    Whether the future meetings will amount to much support for additional mountain biking opportunities will be an interesting process to follow.
    If you want to "promote" Sedona get a puppet account that has a down to earth personality and comes across less like a used car salesman. You've done more harm than good in the area of promotion. The mere sight of your username evokes disdain and dread.

    Your ideal puppet would simply talk about Sedona and organize rides and not simply spambot and sell Sedona. If "Traildoc" gets bored and needs a release maybe get a SHAMWOW distributorship which would more suit his talents.

    Love,
    Dirt

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    If you want to "promote" Sedona get a puppet account that has a down to earth personality and comes across less like a used car salesman. You've done more harm than good in the area of promotion. The mere sight of your username evokes disdain and dread.

    Your ideal puppet would simply talk about Sedona and organize rides and not simply spambot and sell Sedona. If "Traildoc" gets bored and needs a release maybe get a SHAMWOW distributorship which would more suit his talents.

    Love,
    Dirt
    SS:

    Disdain and dread are you sure about that? I would think it would be passionate and initiative. I was into Amway for a while so you might have a point. Thanks for helping to keep this thread active. I think we are going to learn a lot from this thread.

  20. #20
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    Interesting...

    I'm generalizing here but, Sedona is a town of roughly 10k afluent retired people, median age 56.1. The local population certainly isn't the reason that there are four bike shops and a budding mountain bike destination?

    Seems like a lot of folks not from Sedona have helped put and keep Sedona mountain biking on the map. Considering this fact how will this local planning process reflect and respect the will of mountain bikers who do not reside in Sedona? Last I checked public lands were owned by 300 000 000+ Americans.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    SS:

    I would think it would be passionate and initiative.
    That would be applicable if this were about you. I take it this is more than a narcissistic quest. Do you want what is best for Sedona or what is best for Traildoc? Or possibly option 3, What is best for Sedona provided you get your recognition, credit and adoration.

    The current state of affairs has you doing more harm than good.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    That would be applicable if this were about you. I take it this is more than a narcissistic quest. Do you want what is best for Sedona or what is best for Traildoc? Or possibly option 3, What is best for Sedona provided you get your recognition, credit and adoration.

    The current state of affairs has you doing more harm than good.
    SS:

    Today I spoke with two of the different bike shop owners in Sedona. They both said business is good. How does that translate to more harm than good? Can you be specific or are you just a TD hater so you are not ever going to vote for me?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    SS:

    Today I spoke with two of the different bike shop owners in Sedona. They both said business is good. How does that translate to more harm than good? Can you be specific or are you just a TD hater so you are not ever going to vote for me?
    If business is good why the meeting? Why do you assume business is good because of you ? Would it be better if you vanished?

    Sorry not a hater. I have learned that when you post something it's generally self serving rubbish so I more than likely just ignore it and move on. I made an exception this time because every now and then I get bored enough to watch an infomercial. From what I've seen, my opinion of "Traildoc is more rule, less exception.

  24. #24
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    what if they came out with a 29er hoveround?

  25. #25
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    I, for one, kiss the ring of Traildoc. I worship at the altar of Traildoc. I bow down at the mention of Traildoc's name, then I faint. If I was on a romantic stroll with Traildoc and there was a puddle, I'd lay in it so Traildoc didn't get wet. I would gladly throw rose pedals on the ground so Traildoc doesn't touch the same ground the rest of us do. If I was a slave, I'd want to be the one that fanned Traildoc all day.

    All hail Traildoc. Glory be onto Traildoc.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    If business is good why the meeting? Why do you assume business is good because of you ? Would it be better if you vanished?

    Sorry not a hater. I have learned that when you post something it's generally self serving rubbish so I more than likely just ignore it and move on. I made an exception this time because every now and then I get bored enough to watch an infomercial. From what I've seen, my opinion of "Traildoc is more rule, less exception.
    SS:

    I assume business is good because of my efforts to promote Sedona mountain biking and the feedback I get from the shop owners. Business can always be better if the landmanager adopts more trails and does better signage to keep people from getting lost. They do it in Bend and they do it in Moab. It seems like a pretty simple concept when you think about it.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by longhairmike View Post
    what if they came out with a 29er hoveround?
    Didn't they have those in one of the Star Wars movies ? I never saw Star Wars but saw them in a preview.

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    I love unicorns

  29. #29
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    If Sedona was in North Korea, I'd call Traildoc "Glorious Leader." One day, (maybe after about Mid-December) Glorious Leader would grace me with his presence? I'd be all like:


  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy_E View Post
    I, for one, kiss the ring of Traildoc. I worship at the altar of Traildoc. I bow down at the mention of Traildoc's name, then I faint. If I was on a romantic stroll with Traildoc and there was a puddle, I'd lay in it so Traildoc didn't get wet. I would gladly throw rose pedals on the ground so Traildoc doesn't touch the same ground the rest of us do. If I was a slave, I'd want to be the one that fanned Traildoc all day.

    All hail Traildoc. Glory be onto Traildoc.
    Easy:

    I sure do enjoy your posts. You have really come around to get the big picture. Now if we could just get you out to build a new trail for the masses to enjoy that would be progress.

    Maybe one of these days I will take the time to write the "Idiots Guide to Trail Building" If only we could get some government employees to write the "Idiots Guide to NEPA Studies" and the "Idiots Guide to Archeological Studies" we might get the ball rolling forward a little faster.

    I understand there is a private citizen (ex Marine) in Lake Tahoe that got so frustrated with the time it took to get NEPA studies done he told the landmanager he would do the study himself to get his trail project approved. He succeeded in doing the study and the trail was approved and built. That guy definitely knows the definition of initiative.

  31. #31
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    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-td.png
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy_E View Post
    If Sedona was in North Korea, I'd call Traildoc "Glorious Leader." One day, (maybe after about Mid-December) Glorious Leader would grace me with his presence? I'd be all like:

    He is the one.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	td.png 
Views:	732 
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ID:	731243

    He is the one.
    Dirt:

    Thanks for the post. You definitely have shown you have creative computer skills that could possibly be helpful in developing some great intersection maps for the mountain biking masses trying to navigate the comprehensive Sedona trail system.

    In Moab they have devised a state of the art signing system that helps riders orientate themselves so they can have a great riding experience w/o the frustration of getting lost. I am attaching the current map at the EKG and Baby Steps-N intersection which is located in the Klondike riding area. In Moab they use colors to help navigate trails. On the map the EKG trail is orange and the Baby Steps-N trail is baby blue. Carsonites are also used to orientate riders and hikers and they will have trail names and colors on them to denote what trail you are on.

    One of the confusing intersections in Sedona is the Ant Hill and Jordan intersection. Both of those trails are in the Secret trails location. The 1.8 mile Jordan trail is mostly intermediate, but has some advanced sections that a intermediate rider will need to walk. The .6 mile Ant Hill loop trail is mostly intermediate and connects to several other trails along the loop.

    I am attaching a map of the Secret trails area along with the profiles for both of those trails. I am hoping with your exceptional computer skills you might be able to put together a nice intersection sign of the Jordan/Ant Hill intersection do you think you could do that?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-signage.jpg  

    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-anthill-profile.jpg  

    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-jordan-profile.jpg  

    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-sec.jpg  


  33. #33
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    If Sedona was Iran, Traildoc would be the Ayatollah.

    If Sedona was Saudi Arabia, Traildoc would be the Imam.

    If Sedona was in old Latin times, Traildoc would be the Potentate.

    Glory be the words he speaks.

  34. #34
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    Just returned from 5 days in Sedona w/ 12 guys who all flew in from out of town. Another great trip riding your local trails.
    However it was very discouraging to hear that a few of the trails we really love and look forward to riding are slated to be closed next year. Especially when competing mt. biking destination towns are adding trails. It seems funny that you have so many tacky tourist shops and hundreds of pink jeeps riding around the NF and the thing you are shutting down are mt. bike trails that most people don't know about, couldn't find, and couldn't ride if they did. Why ruin it for the visitor that can and does?
    Hope you all can come together and figure it out. We'll be watching from the East.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChetWilcox View Post
    Just returned from 5 days in Sedona w/ 12 guys who all flew in from out of town. Another great trip riding your local trails.
    However it was very discouraging to hear that a few of the trails we really love and look forward to riding are slated to be closed next year. Especially when competing mt. biking destination towns are adding trails. It seems funny that you have so many tacky tourist shops and hundreds of pink jeeps riding around the NF and the thing you are shutting down are mt. bike trails that most people don't know about, couldn't find, and couldn't ride if they did. Why ruin it for the visitor that can and does?
    Hope you all can come together and figure it out. We'll be watching from the East.
    Chet:

    Thanks for you post. As a visitor that probably helped support our local economy do you have any idea how much money the twelve of you spent in Sedona proper during your 5 day visit? It might help the business community to understand the potential economic value for keeping and improving our comprehensive trail system.

    TD

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    We paid for lodging, dinner at Elote and others, lunch everyday at either Wildflower or the sandwich shop next to Fat Tire, 9 rental bikes for 5 days, and many beers and margaritas. We did not take any yoga classes, pink jeep tours (although we did seem them near Broken Arrow while in the Hog area) or purchase any "authentic" western wear or crystals. Some of us did experience a vortex though while descending HL (or was that vertigo...? I get them confused).

  37. #37
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    Doing More For Less

    SSDirt:

    Here is another picture of a sign on the new Magnificent 7 trail system. This sign is at the Arth's trail intersection. 80% of the whole Magnificent 7 trail system was user built and now with the help of Sandy and Jeff that system of trails has been adopted to a system trail status.

    If you look at the sign closely you see the staples over a plastic sheet that protects the map from the elements. The reason why Trail Mix uses plastic covered paper maps is that the Moab trail system is changing so rapidly that the most economical why to provide great maps is to do them in paper then easily change them when a new trail is added without a huge expense that the Trail Mix budget can't afford.

    The only suggestion I would have for Trail Mix is the actual placement of the maps. On some of the intersections the map is orientated correctly in the east west direction, so some users don't quickly orientate themselves to the intersection.

    As you can see the Klondike trail system has evolved somewhat by listing the names of the intersecting trails with the color of the dots on the trail.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-mag-7.jpg  

    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-signage.jpg  

    Last edited by traildoc; 10-18-2012 at 01:26 PM.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I love unicorns
    Oh yea my narwhal will eat your unicorn
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  39. #39
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    I Found this drawing of a Gnar-Whale that a student placed under my office door this morning! I taped it to my door.

    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    Oh yea my narwhal will eat your unicorn
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-gnarwhale.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    Oh yea my narwhal will eat your unicorn
    No way! My unicorn will down kegs of leprechaun shine then puke rainbows and sh#t butterflies all over your narwhale!

  41. #41
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    is this thread doomed to easy -e and faildoc playing tummy sticks?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    No way! My unicorn will down kegs of leprechaun shine then puke rainbows and sh#t butterflies all over your narwhale!
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    is this thread doomed to easy -e and faildoc playing tummy sticks?
    Hey, I'm just saying that if Sedona was ancient Egypt, Traildoc would be Pharaoh.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChetWilcox View Post
    We paid for lodging, dinner at Elote and others, lunch everyday at either Wildflower or the sandwich shop next to Fat Tire, 9 rental bikes for 5 days, and many beers and margaritas. We did not take any yoga classes, pink jeep tours (although we did seem them near Broken Arrow while in the Hog area) or purchase any "authentic" western wear or crystals. Some of us did experience a vortex though while descending HL (or was that vertigo...? I get them confused).
    CW:

    I did a epic 26 mile Moab ride yesterday that is among the best rides Moab has to offer the advanced freeride group. On the ride was an individual that is involved with the mountain bike community in providing some of the best riding in the whole world.

    During our shuttle ride I asked him if he thought the Mag 7 trail system would ever exist without the pioneering done to create the original trails over seven years ago? In his opinion there would be no such trail network and he concluded that in many areas the initial building of user built trails has ultimately encouraged the landmanagers to help adopt existing trails and work with trailbuilders to build new trails that enhance the once user built trails.

    He also said that in his location for every dollar spent on new trails there has been an economic return of over $8. One could only hope that the FS in Sedona will see the economic value of allowing the adoption process to move forward without a lot of setbacks.

  45. #45
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    I'm just saying the future of MTB in Sedona is just about here!!! The FS should follow the lead of the majority of citizens in Sedona and PROHIBIT any MTB activity on ALL FS land in the Sedona area. Let's just look closely to the demographic in Sedona, less than .5% of the residents in Sedona appreciate MTB in Sedona. More than 70% of the population do not want bikes on the trail. Over 30% are elsewhere for more than half the year and the permanent residents are fighting hard to get bikes banned on the FS lands.

    I think the best thing to do is...ride elsewhere!!!! There is plenty of land that the USFS does not have any control over!

    The FS desperately wants to close the area to MTB, I say we all should do our part to ensure that it is done!!!! Then maybe (after 10 years or so) TD will leave Sedona and the threat against MTB in Sedona will deminish.

    THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR MOUNTAIN BIKING IN SEDONA, THE CITIZENS OF SEDONA DO NOT WANT IT, THE FS DOESN'T WANT IT AND THE LOCAL BUSINESSES DON'T WANT IT!!! Just .5% of the population want to see trails adopted, trails built, and trails maintained!!! MTB seems to be the only user group that is complaining about the lack of and quality of trail in Sedona, the other (more established and popular) user groups complain to the FS about MTB users. Since $ makes this country go round and round and $ is in very short supply I figure the most cost effective solution for the FS is to bann MTB on FS land, that way they can eliminate a problematic user group while satisfying the other user groups which are the majority in Sedona.

    TD, would you support the MTB bann in Sedona? Would you support any trail closures?

    If such a bann were to take place, would you move elsewhere so you can continue to ride in your neighborhood?

    Personaly I look forward to the MTB bann in Sedona, it will give everyone who visits Sedona the chance to sit back and enjoy Sedona by walking around the Uptown stores (looking at EXTREAMLY OVER PRICED ART AND ROCKS).

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    CW: One could only hope that the FS in Sedona will see the economic value of allowing the adoption process to move forward without a lot of setbacks.
    One could only hope your useless pointless rants are getting you nowhere!!

    Sedona does not care one F'n bit about catering to the MTB community or about ANY revenue it may bring, Sedona is for ART, ROCKS, and JEEP TOURS!! There is no need for any other sources of revenue!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChetWilcox View Post
    Another great trip riding your local trails.
    However it was very discouraging to hear that a few of the trails we really love and look forward to riding are slated to be closed next year. Why ruin it for the visitor that can and does? Hope you all can come together and figure it out.
    See, Chet, there was this one guy who really wanted to make sure that everybody could find every trail in town easily. He didn't want visitors like you to have to ask a local to help you find the non-system trails. He wanted to make it so easy he made a free downloadable map of Sedona and even offered guided tours of all the non-system, illegally built trails. Unfortunately in the process of showing everybody the trails, he didn't think what the repercussions of the local land manager knowing exactly where each social trail begins and ends. Now, the bike community gets to work to keep the trails open while he tours the western states and Canada for 6 months. What a country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RideNShine View Post
    I'm just saying the future of MTB in Sedona is just about here!!! The FS should follow the lead of the majority of citizens in Sedona and PROHIBIT any MTB activity on ALL FS land in the Sedona area. Let's just look closely to the demographic in Sedona, less than .5% of the residents in Sedona appreciate MTB in Sedona. More than 70% of the population do not want bikes on the trail. Over 30% are elsewhere for more than half the year and the permanent residents are fighting hard to get bikes banned on the FS lands.

    I think the best thing to do is...ride elsewhere!!!! There is plenty of land that the USFS does not have any control over!

    The FS desperately wants to close the area to MTB, I say we all should do our part to ensure that it is done!!!! Then maybe (after 10 years or so) TD will leave Sedona and the threat against MTB in Sedona will deminish.

    THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR MOUNTAIN BIKING IN SEDONA, THE CITIZENS OF SEDONA DO NOT WANT IT, THE FS DOESN'T WANT IT AND THE LOCAL BUSINESSES DON'T WANT IT!!! Just .5% of the population want to see trails adopted, trails built, and trails maintained!!! MTB seems to be the only user group that is complaining about the lack of and quality of trail in Sedona, the other (more established and popular) user groups complain to the FS about MTB users. Since $ makes this country go round and round and $ is in very short supply I figure the most cost effective solution for the FS is to bann MTB on FS land, that way they can eliminate a problematic user group while satisfying the other user groups which are the majority in Sedona.

    TD, would you support the MTB bann in Sedona? Would you support any trail closures?

    If such a bann were to take place, would you move elsewhere so you can continue to ride in your neighborhood?

    Personaly I look forward to the MTB bann in Sedona, it will give everyone who visits Sedona the chance to sit back and enjoy Sedona by walking around the Uptown stores (looking at EXTREAMLY OVER PRICED ART AND ROCKS).
    Shine:

    Great post. You make some interesting points, I doubt there is any supporting documentation to any of it. It's kind of like some guy we all know stating it was a terrorist raid from the get go rather than some people getting mad watching a You Tube video.

    90% of the Sedona population that is asked about trails in Sedona like the idea of adopting and properly signing the trails for their use. I have the documentation to prove it, where do you get yours?

    Lastly, when is that super duper mapping program going to be available, so those users can start to enjoy the trail system and contribute some money to help with the building and maintaining of new trails? I understand the technology is amazing and will allow users to have more wonderful experience, that they will be happy to pay for.

    In Moab it's totally different. The mountain bike club would rather have great signage at each intersection so everyone can enjoy the riding or hiking experience. When you go out to the motorcycle areas the signage sucks so the motorcyclists ride off trail and tear the place up, I am sure they are having fun, but they certainly are creating a lot of trail that goes nowhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RideNShine View Post
    I'm just saying the future of MTB in Sedona is just about here!!! The FS should follow the lead of the majority of citizens in Sedona and PROHIBIT any MTB activity on ALL FS land in the Sedona area. Let's just look closely to the demographic in Sedona, less than .5% of the residents in Sedona appreciate MTB in Sedona. More than 70% of the population do not want bikes on the trail. Over 30% are elsewhere for more than half the year and the permanent residents are fighting hard to get bikes banned on the FS lands.

    I think the best thing to do is...ride elsewhere!!!! There is plenty of land that the USFS does not have any control over!

    The FS desperately wants to close the area to MTB, I say we all should do our part to ensure that it is done!!!! Then maybe (after 10 years or so) TD will leave Sedona and the threat against MTB in Sedona will deminish.

    THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR MOUNTAIN BIKING IN SEDONA, THE CITIZENS OF SEDONA DO NOT WANT IT, THE FS DOESN'T WANT IT AND THE LOCAL BUSINESSES DON'T WANT IT!!! Just .5% of the population want to see trails adopted, trails built, and trails maintained!!! MTB seems to be the only user group that is complaining about the lack of and quality of trail in Sedona, the other (more established and popular) user groups complain to the FS about MTB users. Since $ makes this country go round and round and $ is in very short supply I figure the most cost effective solution for the FS is to bann MTB on FS land, that way they can eliminate a problematic user group while satisfying the other user groups which are the majority in Sedona.

    TD, would you support the MTB bann in Sedona? Would you support any trail closures?

    If such a bann were to take place, would you move elsewhere so you can continue to ride in your neighborhood?

    Personaly I look forward to the MTB bann in Sedona, it will give everyone who visits Sedona the chance to sit back and enjoy Sedona by walking around the Uptown stores (looking at EXTREAMLY OVER PRICED ART AND ROCKS).
    I am on board with the ban as long as I can take my unicorn out for trail rides. I am a local as well, I just bought a 5000 square foot house in Sedona that I plan on visiting for four months this year. I really think that bikes are the main cause for global warming and all of the erosion that is destroying the red rocks of Sedona. Ban bikes!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post

    90% of the Sedona population that is asked about trails in Sedona like the idea of adopting and properly signing the trails for their use. I have the documentation to prove it, where do you get yours?
    I'd like to see that documentation posted. I doubt you could find 90% agreement on any subject in any town. Plus a pure 90% sounds like a made up number.

    Post it.




    87% of all statistics are made up on the spot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    I'd like to see that documentation posted. I doubt you could find 90% agreement on any subject in any town. Plus a pure 90% sounds like a made up number.

    Post it.




    87% of all statistics are made up on the spot
    Phillbo:

    I am getting the 90% from the responses to the last scoping process done by the FS over 3 years ago. I requested that the FS send me all the responses under the Freedom of Information Act. I can't remember exactly how many responses I got but it was over 100.

    Maybe Woahey could call up Jennifer and take a trip down to the Red Rock Ranger Office and tally up all the actual responses and count the negative one compared to the positive ones. Woahey has been a positive force in this process and I would trust his evaluation of those responses.

    My copies at back in Sedona and I won't be back in town until my banning is over. I don't want to get blamed for trail improvement I had nothing to do with.

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    as if being constantly bombarded by presidential election crap-slinging this month wasn't enough...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    87% of all statistics are made up on the spot
    I thought it was 92%. Huh. Just goes to show that I may be wrong 67% of the time just like my wife says during 25% of the month. At least I'm right at least 33% of that time. But I really think you have to be a 3%er to understand the humor behind 100% of this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    I thought it was 92%. Huh. Just goes to show that I may be wrong 67% of the time just like my wife says during 25% of the month. At least I'm right at least 33% of that time. But I really think you have to be a 3%er to understand the humor behind 100% of this post.
    I only understand 50% of your post and can relate to 25% of it so does this mean that I'm a 12.5%er? Or does it mean I'm wrong 75% of the time?

    Maybe I should do a survey; let's get some demographically realistic results and instead of going to the FS or to any of the trail user groups, lets question the rock, art and jeep tour business owners as well as go door to door and ask the citizens of Sedona if they want thier town turned into a MTB Mecca. I would expect that (as it has been mentioned before) a 90% majority would be quite improbable.

    Personally I don't think questioning 100 trail users in a town with a population of 10,000 gives any sort of realistic feedback of the desires of said community. I could be wrong and if I am, I can only be 1% wrong since that's the percentage of citizens that were questioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RideNShine View Post
    I only understand 50% of your post and can relate to 25% of it so does this mean that I'm a 12.5%er? Or does it mean I'm wrong 75% of the time?

    Maybe I should do a survey; let's get some demographically realistic results and instead of going to the FS or to any of the trail user groups, lets question the rock, art and jeep tour business owners as well as go door to door and ask the citizens of Sedona if they want thier town turned into a MTB Mecca. I would expect that (as it has been mentioned before) a 90% majority would be quite improbable.

    Personally I don't think questioning 100 trail users in a town with a population of 10,000 gives any sort of realistic feedback of the desires of said community. I could be wrong and if I am, I can only be 1% wrong since that's the percentage of citizens that were questioned.
    Ah yes, the elitist attitude that transpires from a town like Sedona, you gotta love it.

    Unfortunately the property owners don't really get a final say on what happens with the surrounding NF. It's public land so no matter how hard you worked your life away to spend the golden years in a giant house in Sedona it is still PUBLIC land.

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    though often misinterpreted, the definition of public land does not mean we-can-do-whatever-the-hell-we-want-on it.
    it merely means open zoning and specific usage decisions can be brought up for voting. and who does the voting,, the property owners and tenants in that county.

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    Can anyone explain who this process works? There is to be an initial meeting on Oct. 25 then what. Does it really matter if there are a lot of mountain bikers present at the meeting or if just having the club presidents there along with an IMBA representative is plenty of representation.

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    Why not attend the meeting to understand who the process will work. Based on your OP that discussion is first on the agenda:

    "Agenda items for the October 25 meeting will include: an overview of the process, discussion of desired outcomes, sharing of ideas/values and trail interests, brainstorm of concerns, monthly schedule, and developing a core working group. "

  59. #59
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    Hey T Doc, Tone here mate, just poppin in to your thread to say keep up the passion n good work mate, its noticed even from the other side of the planet, when you comin for a holiday to raise hell on a few of our trails, ive got the chainsaws ready for some stealth night runs in out national parks, cheers mate
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by longhairmike View Post
    though often misinterpreted, the definition of public land does not mean we-can-do-whatever-the-hell-we-want-on it.
    it merely means open zoning and specific usage decisions can be brought up for voting. and who does the voting,, the property owners and tenants in that county.
    Vote? Not really, there is a public comment period though. The Forest Service weighs what experience the outside visitor is looking for as well, not just nearby home owners. Some of the retiree property owning folks don't give a rats ass about the local tourist/recreation economy and they would rather close the gates now that they have their own piece than allow access to the public. The jeeps and orv's get plenty of complaints against them as well but these are the things that drive the local economy as do the bikes. Ride In Shine I think was just having a little fun, stirring the pot maybe and I highly doubt a bike ban will ever happen, there are too many of us now. This is of course just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Does it really matter if there are a lot of mountain bikers present at the meeting or if just having the club presidents there along with an IMBA representative is plenty of representation.
    I think this is the million dollar question. Having a bunch of people there could be good, and also could be bad. I attended one meeting that turned into a 2 hour b!tch session where nothing was accomplished and as a whole made all of the biking community look like a bunch of dooouche bags.

    I think that a bunch of people showing up will only be good if they keep things positive. Anybody who shows up should leave their affiliations with any of the local MTB clubs at home and not show any signs of personal issues with the other people who show. We need to be on the same team. I doubt we'll have a chance like this again so we really need to make it look like we're all a bunch of big kids who can get along. We've got two organizations who want to better things for the mtb community and the current powers that be in the FS actually want to work with us. We need to not screw it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    I think this is the million dollar question. Having a bunch of people there could be good, and also could be bad. I attended one meeting that turned into a 2 hour b!tch session where nothing was accomplished and as a whole made all of the biking community look like a bunch of dooouche bags.

    I think that a bunch of people showing up will only be good if they keep things positive. Anybody who shows up should leave their affiliations with any of the local MTB clubs at home and not show any signs of personal issues with the other people who show. We need to be on the same team. I doubt we'll have a chance like this again so we really need to make it look like we're all a bunch of big kids who can get along. We've got two organizations who want to better things for the mtb community and the current powers that be in the FS actually want to work with us. We need to not screw it up.
    Woahey:

    Excellent post. Have you met with Phil and Lars to find out from them how to best attend the meeting? What does "we need to be on the same team" and "we've got two organizations who want to better things for the mtb community and the current powers that be in the FS actually want to work with us." mean.

    What do the two organizations want to do for us? I have always thought making a beginner family type singletrack trail would be a great idea, but it doesn't ever seem to get any traction. Seems like a great way to get Sedona families into our great sport.

    The Bar M trails in Moab have been a great success giving beginner riders a fun place to ride.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-moab-b.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's L'axeman View Post
    Hey T Doc, Tone here mate, just poppin in to your thread to say keep up the passion n good work mate, its noticed even from the other side of the planet, when you comin for a holiday to raise hell on a few of our trails, ive got the chainsaws ready for some stealth night runs in out national parks, cheers mate
    Tone:

    Your post means so much to me and it is nice to have mates from the other side of the planet supporting what we are all trying to accomplish in Sedona. When you see areas like Moab, Bend Oregon, Jackson Hole Wyoming, Sun Valley Idaho, Fruita Colorado and Grand Junction develop great trails for the masses to ride I just find it amazing Sedona is going through such growing pains.

    Thanks for your support. I was running a 50 year old Homelite chainsaw yesterday cutting down some oak trees in the LaSals and was thinking this would be a great place for an optional singletrack to bypass the terrible Bentonite clay in rainy conditions on the Kokopellli trail
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-homelite.jpg  

    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-homelite-2.jpg  

    Last edited by traildoc; 10-20-2012 at 09:35 PM.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Woahey:

    What does "we need to be on the same team" and "we've got two organizations who want to better things for the mtb community and the current powers that be in the FS actually want to work with us." mean.
    "We need to be on the same team" means exactly that. This isn't just a meeting with the mtb community and the FS. This is a meeting for all trail users to come together. I am willing to bet the Westerners have an agenda. I also bet the equestrians have some unity amongst themselves. The few people who own property that have social trails cutting through will probably show too. If 30 riders show all with their own personal agendas, we'll again look like a bunch of self-rightous d-bags. I think the mtb community already has it tough enough around here without suffering from a self inflicted gunshot wound to the foot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    "We need to be on the same team" means exactly that. This isn't just a meeting with the mtb community and the FS. This is a meeting for all trail users to come together. I am willing to bet the Westerners have an agenda. I also bet the equestrians have some unity amongst themselves. The few people who own property that have social trails cutting through will probably show too. If 30 riders show all with their own personal agendas, we'll again look like a bunch of self-rightous d-bags. I think the mtb community already has it tough enough around here without suffering from a self inflicted gunshot wound to the foot.
    Woahey:

    So what do these 30 mountain bikers who show-up want. I have stated what I want, but I have never heard what others in the MTB community want. Can you share with me what you and the Bike & Bean group want?

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    Outsiders opinion

    I love visiting Sedona and hope not as much for total trail access but for trail continuity access, Like a dirt link from Sub rock to Huckabee or around courthouse rock! I'd also seek the ability to ride through the fingers extending from the wilderness areas so we can ride the wilderness fringe without concern of being in violation of access laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slowrider View Post
    I love visiting Sedona and hope not as much for total trail access but for trail continuity access, Like a dirt link from Sub rock to Huckabee or around courthouse rock! I'd also seek the ability to ride through the fingers extending from the wilderness areas so we can ride the wilderness fringe without concern of being in violation of access laws.
    I agree with you 100% but this will never happen. The FS would get sued before the ink had dried by organizations like the Sierra Club or Friends of the Forest if they tried to repeal wilderness status for those areas. Despite the fact that it's silly to have a trail like Marg's Draw in wilderness where you can throw rocks into the backyards of houses.

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    Outsiders opinion

    I love visiting Sedona and hope not as much for total trail access but for trail continuity access, Like a dirt link from Sub rock to Huckabee or around courthouse rock! I'd also seek the ability to ride through the fingers extending from the wilderness areas so we can ride the wilderness fringe without concern of being in violation of access laws.

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    Outsiders opinion

    I love visiting Sedona and hope not as much for total trail access but for trail continuity access, Like a dirt link from Sub rock to Huckabee or around courthouse rock! I'd also seek the ability to ride through the fingers extending from the wilderness areas so we can ride the wilderness fringe without concern of being in violation of access laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Woahey:

    So what do these 30 mountain bikers who show-up want. I have stated what I want, but I have never heard what others in the MTB community want. Can you share with me what you and the Bike & Bean group want?
    I don't know what the 30 hypothetical people want. They're hypothetical.

    If you have stated what you want, yet never bothered to listen to what the other people say, then you may be one of those 30 hypothetical people.

    I can't share with you what the Bike and Bean wants. I don't own that business and don't represent that business so I cannot speak on their behalf.

    A couple things I think would be great to see is a standardized trail rating system that everybody can understand and see some trails of each rating. I would also like to see some sort of standard in trail maintenance. Maybe this means we need people from all user groups volunteering together to make a trail enjoyable by all of us. But maybe I ate too much granola this morning...
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Woahey:

    I this a joke or are you really serious? Trail ratings, and a trail built by hikers, mountain bikers and equestrians, do you know where you want to put that new trail? What would this new trail look like: Under Under the Radar, Western Civ, Carroll Canyon, Girdner, Cockcomb, Chuck Wagon?

    You ride the user built trails all the time, and you don't want them adopted?

    Woahey:

    As I patiently wait for your response on this new unified trail idea you have, I can't help but think what Sedona mountain biking, hiking and trail running would be like if the passion and initiative would have waited around for this upcoming meeting on Oct. 25th. You haven't yet articulated your dream of where this new unifying trail should be located or what you hope it will look like and I can hardly wait to hear about it.

    I bet if you were to ask ra what his new trail idea would look like and where he thought it should be located he would have it all figured out. Most every turn, drop and jump would have already been thought about just waiting for the OK to be given to start the project.

    Come on Woahey tell us about your vision to unify the different user groups.
    Last edited by traildoc; 10-22-2012 at 12:52 PM.

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    Sweet TD, although I still like my Husquevarna Chainsaw.......but i remember the Homelites well!

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Woahey:

    As I patiently wait for your response on this new unified trail idea you have, I can't help but think what Sedona mountain biking, hiking and trail running would be like if the passion and initiative would have waited around for this upcoming meeting on Oct. 25th. You haven't yet articulated your dream of where this new unifying trail should be located or what you hope it will look like and I can hardly wait to hear about it.

    Come on Woahey tell us about your vision to unify the different user groups.
    I never said anything about a trail being built. I said that the maintenance and reroutes should be a collaborative effort. Now that you brought it up, maybe new construction should too. Maybe this will stop things like the tree's you saw butchered out on Chuckwagon. Maybe this will stop things like the "steps" that were built at the Adobe Jack TH.

    I constantly hear you talking about making a movement happen. You are of the age that when you were young, things in our country were really changing. For some reason I doubt you were one of the ones going against stream then- I bet that you kept your hair short, didn't experiment with alcohol and drugs, or participate in any sort of protest. You never thought the government would do you wrong, but now that you're 60-something and collecting social security you've decided that the Red Rock Ranger District is out to get you. I bet they have your phones tapped and have security cameras on your favorite social trails.

    Speaking of social trails, I received an e-mail regarding some of the trails being adopted. Looks like Hiline, Hangover, Easy Breezy (formerly known as Easy Breezy and Easy Sleezy), Chuckwagon extension (formerly known as Gunslinger) as well as a couple of trails at Deadhorse will be adopted in the upcoming months. There's even a couple of new trails to be built. Seems to me that pushing to get user-built trails to be adopted is a waste of time at the meeting being as though they're trying to drum up volunteers to do the work and have already done the arch studies, etc. I know you have been out of town for a while now, and I'd hate to see you be late for the party but it's time to find other ways your government is screwing you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    I never said anything about a trail being built. I said that the maintenance and reroutes should be a collaborative effort. Now that you brought it up, maybe new construction should too. Maybe this will stop things like the tree's you saw butchered out on Chuckwagon. Maybe this will stop things like the "steps" that were built at the Adobe Jack TH.

    I constantly hear you talking about making a movement happen. You are of the age that when you were young, things in our country were really changing. For some reason I doubt you were one of the ones going against stream then- I bet that you kept your hair short, didn't experiment with alcohol and drugs, or participate in any sort of protest. You never thought the government would do you wrong, but now that you're 60-something and collecting social security you've decided that the Red Rock Ranger District is out to get you. I bet they have your phones tapped and have security cameras on your favorite social trails.

    Speaking of social trails, I received an e-mail regarding some of the trails being adopted. Looks like Hiline, Hangover, Easy Breezy (formerly known as Easy Breezy and Easy Sleezy), Chuckwagon extension (formerly known as Gunslinger) as well as a couple of trails at Deadhorse will be adopted in the upcoming months. There's even a couple of new trails to be built. Seems to me that pushing to get user-built trails to be adopted is a waste of time at the meeting being as though they're trying to drum up volunteers to do the work and have already done the arch studies, etc. I know you have been out of town for a while now, and I'd hate to see you be late for the party but it's time to find other ways your government is screwing you.
    Woahey:

    From your previous post you made the following statement " Maybe this means we need people from all user groups volunteering together to make a trail enjoyable by all of us." If that statement doesn't refer to a new trail what existing trail are you talking about getting the equestrians to work on.

    I can't see how equestrians are ever going to be happy with the current brushing standard required for a class two trail. It will be interesting how the brushing goes on the Easy Breezy adoption process, if that is to be considered a trail equestrians are allowed on.

    It is good to hear all those trails you listed are being adopted. By adopting those trails like Highline and Hangover the FS is really stepping up and allowing some very difficult trails into the system, which is very cool for riders like you and I. Those two trails will be shining examples of what the FS is able to accomplish for the hiking and mountain biking user groups. I can't imagine equestrians ever being allowed to use those trails.

    You say the meeting is about drumming up volunteers "to do the work", but I am still not clear what work you talking about. Can you tell me the status of the Anaconda and Snake trails? They were the first trails to have any studies done in the initial adoption process. All user groups (mtb, hiking, equestrian and trail running) use those trails and I am curious if they are signed yet or need extensive work done on them to meet FS standards that it seems Highline and Hangover have passed.

    As far as the trail adoption process goes, at one time the FS use to adopt trails in Sedona, hopefully the program could be resurrected.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Woahey:
    As far as the trail adoption process goes, at one time the FS use to adopt trails in Sedona, hopefully the program could be resurrected.
    Dude, you obviously have no idea what is going on. I have lost the energy to reply to you. You win. Have a great government ordered vacation.
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    TD,

    I think what he said was; there is no need to have trail adoption on the meeting's agenda since it is not only on the FS agenda it is currently happening.

    Not really sure how you missed this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RideNShine View Post
    TD,

    I think what he said was; there is no need to have trail adoption on the meeting's agenda since it is not only on the FS agenda it is currently happening.

    Not really sure how you missed this.
    RS:

    So your indicating trails like Windsurfer, Sketch, Bogus, Upper Ramshead, Double D, the Radars, Special Ed, Pyramid, Witch Doctor, Christmas Wash, Bike Path, Western Civ, Transcept, Ledge'n'Airy, Stay High, Drano, Cedar Ridge, Old Ridge, Last Frontier, Mescal Connector West and East, AZ Cypress Bypass, Canyon of Fools, Airport Vista, Mouse Fingers, Steamboat, Plumbers Crack, Red Rock Crossing Connector and Easy Rider are all actively being considered for adoption. Not all but many of those trails are very popular to the hiking, trail running and Mountain biking community.

    They have have used for years and could be great additions to the system trail network. I really believe there should also be a new beginner singletrack added to the mix to give families visiting or living Sedona a chance to experience a really cool singletrack experience.

  78. #78
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    I don't claim to know everything, just trying to answer a few questions here.

    The intent of the two clubs is to have as much participation as possible vs. a small representative from each club. The meetings have been promoted to us as a way to gather information from all user groups. The beginnings of which are supposedly to have people show up and express their individual wishes. They gather this data and look for trends, numbers of requests, etc. Again, this is what I have been told is the early part of the process. It is not my process, nor either of the two club's process. The more people show up and comment, even if it seems redundant to say for the 46th time "I agree, we need to bring more of the existing user built trails into the system" (as an example). If it appears that there is an overwhelming desire, and it is reflected in the comments, then it is more likely to become part of any future planning.

    I am quoting one of the club presidents here: "The RTCA grant is for a facilitator to guide the community through the scoping process to gather information about what kinds of things does the community want concerning trails. This is not a planning process only gathering up the dreams of the community." So this is where I am getting my information.

    The RTCA facilitator does not work for the FS, nor are they assigned to this district. They are not likely going to know about past local Sedona history with respect to previous trail clearances, current trail survey/NEPA statuses, FS intent, etc. They were brought in under a national grant program. They are supposed to be non-biased, disinterested, etc. so as to be a a facilitator vs. directing the meetings and information gathered. Having said that, it is a program spun off of the National Park Service. The bike community has had very mixed success when interfacing with this organization. Take that for what it is worth.

    One additional thing you may want to consider. The city is involved in this process. The results of this series of surveys, as well as any potential subsequent plan that may come from this, is but ONE of the many things city managers and local politicians will have to pay attention to. They will also be courted by local voters/businesses/special interest groups. Many of which will demand things contrary to what this RTCA process yields. Putting all your faith/efforts into this one venue is not likely the best strategy to get what you want. Having said that, ignoring this process is not going to help either.

    My suggestion is that you should not censor what you want (if you take the time to show up and be heard), but it would be helpful not to crap all over what other participants express that they want. Just by showing that type of respect and being positive with your wishes, the MTB community will come off positively. It would be a shame if people showed up to pick each other apart in front of other user groups.

    My request is that if you have the time, and inclination, that you attend and make your wishes known. My request is also that you pass this along to anyone who may be interested in doing the same. While I don't wish to preclude other user groups, I think the more mountain bikers the better.

    I am a member of one of the clubs, the SMBC. If you cannot show, feel free to express your wishes on our site via comments (SMBC | Sedona mountain biking), or e-mail us so that we can pass them through during Thursday nights meeting.

    Additionally I would like to add that this is not a one time meeting. It is intended to be recurring. I believe monthly, but that is supposed to be discussed at the first meeting. Starting with gathering ALL the input, then refining things down to the point where there is some type of synergy between ALL the input. If you cannot attend this one, there will be others. Just know that each one is likely to be a refinement of the previous. So by its very nature, showing up to the last meeting to express a general idea might not yield the best results.
    Grammar and spelling errors are complementary.

  79. #79
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    Thank you SchwingDing for your cogent post.

    I'd add that the meeting is also being billed as the "first trail and ecosystem protection planning meeting". Trails that have already been adopted as part of the process have in several cases had extensive reroutes to avoid sensitive areas (mostly arch sites). What is also implied that there will also be closures as part of the process (ie., ecosystem protection) and the rumour flying around is that the concession for Hangover might be closure of everything else in the area. Which would be too bad, since those trails (Damifino, KillerB, Lavitra, TH, etc.) are sister trails to the rider experience that HO and HiLine provide. Tomahawk is IMO the crown jewel of the entire Sedona trail network (system and social).

    Besides what trails are being considered for adoption it also just as important to know which trails are going to potentially be closed and the reasons why. I would think that would be on the minds of the mtn bike community as one, if not the most pressing trail concern and empasize that non-closure is a desired outcome for the planning process.
    Last edited by rockman; 10-23-2012 at 10:54 AM.

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    Swing_ding and rockman:

    Great posts I think the OP's goal was to get the information out that both of you articulated very well. Where else can Sedona locals get the type of information you have posted?

    TD

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    Everyone here is obviously passionate about MTB. RRRD is making much movement on bringing on more user built trails and some new construction as Whoey mentioned Hiline & Hangover are in along with more. I hope all of you can keep up with both clubs sites to be abreast on opportunities to contribute to the local trails. The latest RRRD trails update is available on The Verde Cyclist . all the info on the latest trail info is in there.

    A common thread here is to be on the same page. This is a definite need, if we are not organized it will be much harder process.

    The local RRMBP just received a grant which provides monies that RRMBP and VVCC will put towards enhancing the patrol and trail safety which provides for signage including trail ratings.

    So from my view things are looking up for our local trails and MTB community. I still worry and contemplate what will come of the potential closure but am glad to have a voice that is heard by the FS in what will happen.

    Get up here an enjoy the perfect weather, doesn't get much better than now.

    Lars

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    Divide and Conquer; the gov't just wants to do what IT wants!

    Cholla;
    I like your ideas/comment. Seems like the Sedona area mtnbike club execs should meet be4 the mtng and get some consensus; or it will be the usual divide and conquer govf't strategy (they perfected it in canada!) and it will be so frustrating that the process will grind to a halt.
    So, go on the 25th; tomorrow!; and exchange plaewsantries; then get some good dialogue going among the clubs, and the IMBA rep., and attend the next meeting prepared.
    Best Wishes. Sedona is such a GREAT riding area; thanks to alot ot people; like TD.
    TS

  83. #83
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    All i want to know is there a trail in Sedona called 'Trail Doc'' because if theres not im starting a petition up tomorrow to make it happen....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by freak-a-zoid View Post
    Everyone here is obviously passionate about MTB. RRRD is making much movement on bringing on more user built trails and some new construction as Whoey mentioned Hiline & Hangover are in along with more. I hope all of you can keep up with both clubs sites to be abreast on opportunities to contribute to the local trails. The latest RRRD trails update is available on The Verde Cyclist . all the info on the latest trail info is in there.

    A common thread here is to be on the same page. This is a definite need, if we are not organized it will be much harder process.

    The local RRMBP just received a grant which provides monies that RRMBP and VVCC will put towards enhancing the patrol and trail safety which provides for signage including trail ratings.

    So from my view things are looking up for our local trails and MTB community. I still worry and contemplate what will come of the potential closure but am glad to have a voice that is heard by the FS in what will happen.

    Get up here an enjoy the perfect weather, doesn't get much better than now.

    Lars
    Lars:

    Thanks for the post. You mentioned receiving funds for signage including trail ratings. At the recent Outerbike event in Moab I spoke with Scott who works as a paid trail builder for Trail Mix. He indicated he had been corresponding with Jennifer recently and I am curious if Sedona might be getting new signage similar to what they use in Moab? Their signage does provide trail difficulty information.

    Do you have any examples of the signage you mentioned?

    TD
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-signage-c.jpg  


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    Lars:

    Will the VVCC be doing a written recap of the meeting or possibly a audio recording or video of the actual meeting for those of us that would really like to be at the meeting, but will be unable to attend this one?

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    Well, there ya go it's sounds more like a done deal. Win a few, lose a few. The Decision Memo on Phase II is out. USDA Forest Service - Red Rock Ranger District NEPA Projects - Sedona Trails Additions Phase II

    "Unnecessary non-system trails that are identified through this project will be naturalized over time as budget allows. Examples of these actions are: naturalization of social trails, trail reroutes, signage, and fencing. Specifically, the user created trails known as Tomahawk, Levitra, Killer Bee, and Damfino will be "naturalized" and stabilized to protect resources within the Casner Canyon Research Natural Area."

    Some of the trails will also be closed to equestrian use including HiLine and HO.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Well, there ya go it's sounds more like a done deal. Win a few, lose a few. The Decision Memo on Phase II is out. USDA Forest Service - Red Rock Ranger District NEPA Projects - Sedona Trails Additions Phase II

    "Unnecessary non-system trails that are identified through this project will be naturalized over time as budget allows. Examples of these actions are: naturalization of social trails, trail reroutes, signage, and fencing. Specifically, the user created trails known as Tomahawk, Levitra, Killer Bee, and Damfino will be "naturalized" and stabilized to protect resources within the Casner Canyon Research Natural Area."

    Some of the trails will also be closed to equestrian use including HiLine and HO.
    rock:

    Good post. Looks like the hikers got a well needed trail, I am sure they will appreciate it.

  88. #88
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    I am aware that the area in which Tomahawk, Killer Bee, Damfino, and Livitra are situated has been designated a "Study Area". Does anyone one know the particulars of this study area or which species are being studied? Are they endangered or a species of conservation concern?

    What I find most peculiar is that the Casner Canyon trail is in the same area, albeit a little further North East. Is Casner Canyon trail scheduled to be naturalized too? Will the many foot trail spurs that lead off of Casner Canyon trail near Oak Creek be naturalized too?

    Lastly, is anyone aware whether the area in question has been proposed to become a Wilderness study area?

  89. #89
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    One thing that would help is to offer a system of communication with the authorities, so that sites requiring work, new trail, re-routes etc and all completed work is reported efficiently. If the LM has issues with a project they can say so before anything is done, but promptly without having to do an on-site inspection. Obviously it implies a level of trust between the trailcare group and the LM. We use a website as a calendar and report log, plus direct contact with ranger (emails with pics) if needed for urgent issues.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON View Post
    I am aware that the area in which Tomahawk, Killer Bee, Damfino, and Livitra are situated has been designated a "Study Area". Does anyone one know the particulars of this study area or which species are being studied? Are they endangered or a species of conservation concern?

    What I find most peculiar is that the Casner Canyon trail is in the same area, albeit a little further North East. Is Casner Canyon trail scheduled to be naturalized too? Will the many foot trail spurs that lead off of Casner Canyon trail near Oak Creek be naturalized too?

    Lastly, is anyone aware whether the area in question has been proposed to become a Wilderness study area?
    It's a Research Natural Area and it's hard to find much info on it. As far as I can tell it's first mentioned or was created in 1973 to be a natural research area left in its natural state to serve as an outdoor laboratory. It contains an almost pure stand of Arizona cypress. There's mention of it in Amendment 12 to the Management Plan for the greater Sedona area in 1998 but no details other than the size is 565 acres. http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...rdb5334670.pdf

    The general idea as I understand it is to set aside such areas as unaltered landscapes that can serve as a control for studies (with which to compare impacted areas) or strictly for protection (ie., minimize reacreation activities to enhance or protect habitat for wildlife and minimize siltation and enhance water quality in nearby watersheds).

    Casner Canyon trail doesn't appear to be in the boundary and it also likely predates establishment of the RNA. ProtectedPlanet - Casner Canyon Research Natural Area Research Natural Area (USFS)

  91. #91
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    Just my thoughts:

    Firstly there is never a meeting (or series of) unless the authorities feel there is potential to gain. They can't be bothered otherwise. I'm guessing from the posts that would be the city of Sedona as well as the USFS? That suggests they see some potential in MTB, so you need numbers on the floor. Brothers unite. Unless 95.5% of Sedonan's use cattle prods and push all riders into the gas chamber, that should work better than a few going.

    Second, they have demonstrated totally poor form by announcing the closure of trails, regardless how they got there, prior to the meetings without consulting with the MTB community.

    Third, a research area that has untouched terrain next to historic trails is the perfect place to research the effects of trail on wilderness in Sedona. See next point;

    Fourth, trails that have allowed public access to important areas offer the potential to legitimately allow continued, multi-user access, in a controlled manner without disrupting new environment. Appropriate corralling, added rest and lookout locations, plus educational sites can only add to the Sedona environment. Maybe not like pink hummers and rocks, but..

    Fifth and sorry to have to make this point, but if you guys have made so much trail in the area that it is a problem to the LM's, then they need to seriously understand the consequences of disrespect and conflict with the MTB and trailbuilding community.

    Let me make this clear; we have a very constructive and proactive relationship with the local LM here, but they know exactly what will happen if they say no, no, no and close trail before an appropriate correction is made. I would guess that for every 5km they destroyed another 30 would be made. However, after many years of sniping and some public displays of power, all of a sudden we are working toward a fully legalised trail network. It has taken everyone by surprise how quickly the goalposts moved.

    There comes a time when the LM accepts that MTB happens, it cannot be stopped, "we" will always go onto the land and that there must be a constructive and productive relationship with the people who have shown interest in and devotion to the land. Advocacy by proxy is becoming accepted here as it has been in Europe for a long time. It may be that this is that time for Sedona? When the LM has been instructed to encourage access, then they have to do it, just as happened here.

    Be positive - this may be easier than you think. If not, then I suspects it's time to unleash the Orcses and level the hillsss

  92. #92
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    Here is my suggestion for trail difficulty signage below. Area maps at each intersection are nice, but we have between 400-500 intersections and end nodes and it seems many of our maps end up obsolete after 5-10 years.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-traildifficulty.jpg  

    Professional Trail Builder and Guvmint Employee

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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    Here is my suggestion for trail difficulty signage below. Area maps at each intersection are nice, but we have between 400-500 intersections and end nodes and it seems many of our maps end up obsolete after 5-10 years.
    Justin:

    Thanks for your post. In Moab there is a couple, Jeff and Sandy that are part of the Trail Mix bike club. They are volunteers who are passionate about providing the best signage in the whole planet. Unlike a landmanager employee who is normally not passionate about their job, Jeff and Sandy can constantly modify and improve the Moab signage without worrying about the landmanager getting on their case.

    Most landmanagers have a manual that they use to do signage and to be honest it sucks. Jeff and Sandy are constantly improving their maps because they want to provide the best user experience for the people recreating on the Moab trail system.

    I have never talked with Jeff and Sandy, so I have no clue if I am full of BS or not, but I ride with an old geezer called Wally that volunteers with Trail Mix and he has shared his observations with me.

    Yesterday we rode the Brand Trails and there is a new trail called Maverick that had been added to the trail system and takes off of the North 40 trail. Due to this being a new intersection a new sign was created. If this had been a FS project there is no way the signage at that intersection would be any different than other surrounding trails.

    But I believe Jeff and Sandy decided to use a different background (Aerial View) for the new map at that intersection. Also the new trail was signed a one directional.

    Correct me if I am wrong but do you as a FS employee have the liberty to improve the system trail signage like your post. Your sign is definitely an improvement, but I can't ever imagine it being approved in Sedona.

    I could see someone like myself being involved with this type of passionate trail signage, but it is hard to imagine the FS allowing me to ever be involved in such a project because it just isn't in the approved manual and I am considered to be too passionate about providing a good navigational experience to Sedona trail users.

    Notice that that new map is stapled to the plywood backing and covered with plastic. This is done to keep costs down and allow for better updated maps in the future.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-maverick-.jpg  

    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-maverick-b.jpg  

    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-maverick-c.jpg  

    Last edited by traildoc; 10-25-2012 at 07:46 PM.

  94. #94
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    Not a new area

    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON View Post
    I am aware that the area in which Tomahawk, Killer Bee, Damfino, and Livitra are situated has been designated a "Study Area". Does anyone one know the particulars of this study area or which species are being studied? Are they endangered or a species of conservation concern?

    What I find most peculiar is that the Casner Canyon trail is in the same area, albeit a little further North East. Is Casner Canyon trail scheduled to be naturalized too? Will the many foot trail spurs that lead off of Casner Canyon trail near Oak Creek be naturalized too?

    Lastly, is anyone aware whether the area in question has been proposed to become a Wilderness study area?
    This area was actually established as a area to be preserved as a benchmark area back in 1972. The intent was to not promote any recreation that would disturb the natural state of the area.

    I can not speak to the FS intent to naturalizing the area nor any schedule. The Casner trail is just outside of the RNA so it will remain.

  95. #95
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    I understand from a fellow mountain biker that the mountain biking community was well represented at the meeting. Apparently there were about 70 people who attended and I believe everyone who attended got to express what they wanted in 30 seconds. I believe the FS heard some people ask for a doubling of the current trail system.

    SAR believes there should be a reduction of trails due to people getting lost. I think less people would get lost if there was better trail signage. I think the vast majority of people who get lost are hikers rather than mountain bikers.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    It's a Research Natural Area and it's hard to find much info on it. As far as I can tell it's first mentioned or was created in 1973 to be a natural research area left in its natural state to serve as an outdoor laboratory. It contains an almost pure stand of Arizona cypress. There's mention of it in Amendment 12 to the Management Plan for the greater Sedona area in 1998 but no details other than the size is 565 acres. http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...rdb5334670.pdf

    The general idea as I understand it is to set aside such areas as unaltered landscapes that can serve as a control for studies (with which to compare impacted areas) or strictly for protection (ie., minimize reacreation activities to enhance or protect habitat for wildlife and minimize siltation and enhance water quality in nearby watersheds).

    Casner Canyon trail doesn't appear to be in the boundary and it also likely predates establishment of the RNA. ProtectedPlanet - Casner Canyon Research Natural Area Research Natural Area (USFS)
    great post....... much better than my abbreviated response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I understand from a fellow mountain biker that the mountain biking community was well represented at the meeting. Apparently there were about 70 people who attended and I believe everyone who attended got to express what they wanted in 30 seconds. I believe the FS heard some people ask for a doubling of the current trail system.

    SAR believes there should be a reduction of trails due to people getting lost. I think less people would get lost if there was better trail signage. I think the vast majority of people who get lost are hikers rather than mountain bikers.
    John the meeting was a great turnout with MTBers definitely the largest showing. I posted images of the notes taken to the VVCC website The Verde Cyclist .

    I have monies from a grant to do signage for ratings and signing the new adoptions. Justin's depiction of a sign with the addition of a number to the sign is the plan. Heather and Jennifer seem to be good to go for that idea, and utilizing IMBA's trail rating system (green, blue black, double black).

  98. #98
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    It was a really good event last night. Great to see such a good showing of local riders and shop owners. It was also great to have other user groups there and quite a few city and federal staff. Everyone got to voice their thoughts, and it feels like we have a good process to follow moving forward. There were lots of comments from mountain bikers for: more advanced trails; adopting more trails into a legal system; trails for all abilities; and better signage and mapping. Next meeting is Thursday November 29th at 6pm. Local TBD. We can show you the notes and ground rules for participation, as developed last night.

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    10/25/12 Meeting Notes

    Here are the notes to the first meeting. Looks like this is a great start. Not sure where all the money and volunteers are going to come from to accomplish everyone's wishes, but time will tell.
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  100. #100
    mtbr member
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    Some additional notes. 70 participants: 30 mountain bikers, 17 hikers, 11 horsemen/women, 8 government, & 4 other. I hope the turnout remains the same or grows. It will be interesting to see the numbers in subsequent meetings.

    My observations were that a majority of the other user groups present were genuinely interested in finding out about MTB desires, while having us learn about their desires. Most were complementary across user group lines, expressing positive interactions between groups when out on the trails. This is very positive, and counter to what I have experienced living and riding in other parts of this country. By contrast, I have lived in places where broken glass was hidden under leaves, and head/neck level wires were intentionally strung across trails. I was once even clotheslined by one to the bridge of the nose. To say there is a much better acceptance in this area cannot be understated (the idiot sabotaging trails in Flag not withstanding).

    As to the naturalization. We don't know when, but the trails have been identified. Exact language: "Specifically the user created trails known as Tomahawk, Levitra, Killer Bee, and Damfino will be "naturalized" and stabilized to protect resources within the Casner Canyon Research Natural Area."

    Casner canyon is akin to the FS's sacred cow. I don't see this changing. Might be time to think about an alternate location which is suitable to address the needs the trails in Casner fulfilled. Get buy in from the gravity set, and get authorization from the LMs. If you were in charge of managing land, wouldn't it be easier to provide a specific controlled area instead of chasing people around the woods? Think of it like putting a fire ring in a camp site vs. not. You can say "don't build a fire", but inevitably someone will burn the forest down doing just that. Anyone have ideas where to build this fire pit? I'll bring the chocolate if you bring the marshmallows.
    Grammar and spelling errors are complementary.

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