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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I'll bite on that, the plan is that until there are replacements we don't want to remove anything, this would probably make a lot of folks unhappy. So it might work that we build a trail or two then go in and naturalize a trail or two. Something like that. The FS agreed not to destroy or close anything until we come up with a solid plan. Of course, once again this is all up in the air. Who knows what will happen, as of now we are waiting for another important meeting, hopefully this will happen soon. Trying to make trails legally on public land reminds me a lot of trying to ski big lines in the San Juans, you just have to be patient and hopefully eventually something works out.
    Is it OK with you if we give up White Line and Sick Boy to get something like Dog Walk? Woahey hasn't gotten back yet about giving up Transcept, Rabbit Ears and Taint yet. Hopefully he will OK those for High on the Hog, Hog Heaven and Hog Wash. What would mountain biking be like w/o the Triple H?

  2. #177
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    White Line isn't a trail, it's just a line on a rock, I doubt it's going anywhere. Sick Boy? Whatever, I think what ever needs to be done to make Sedona the best destination and to develop a strong relationship between the mountain bikers and the FS is fine by me. Now I would have a problem with outlawing riding and freeriding on Sedona's sandstone, that would just get too weird and it's just too grey. I hope though with Tomahawk going and maybe Sickboy something is being planned for the more advanced trail riding experience. It's just trails man, if Hog Heaven has to go I wouldn't cry, maybe we could just improve Broken Arrow, Chapel, and Pigs Tail to be a much better loop? All kinds of ideas could be shared during discussions. What's Dog Walk?

  3. #178
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    I guess there is nothing that can be learned from the past, so let's bury it!

    I'm getting the impression that there is a collective sense of amnesia in Sedona; an unwillingness to learn from history and ALL of those who helped to create what we are so fortunate to now have.

    Take a bite of this reality sandwich: Sedona's mtb scene (bike shops and trail system) have blossomed over the last 20 years not due to the USFS but, in spite of the USFS.

    Does this statement mean that I dislike the USFS, have it in form them, or do not believe that they are working hard to change (as some would have you believe)?

    ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    On the contrary. I would like to see the USFS and the local mtb community heal old wounds, grow together, and strike a harmonious and synergistic balance that creates mutual satisfaction and success.

    However, if this new and improved Sedona mtb future is going to happen the leaders of this process need to get real. This process needs to be bottom-up (not top-down), OPEN, PUBLIC, TRANSPARENT, and COLLABORATIVE.

    IT'S TRUE! Some of the people who helped to create what we now have and who will be involved in the process are not diplomatic, easy to work with, team players, and don't understand the path forward.

    THAT IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO MARGINALIZE THEM OR THEIR POINT OF VIEW.

    A quick study of this thread yields two reoccurring themes: Cautious Optimism and Concern.

    THE SOLUTION IS NOT SIMPLE:
    Getting back to a GRASS ROOTS process is often both painful and time consuming. So, why do it?

    Because it's like buying a new bike; by taking the time to understand the past we make different choices in the present, and move forward with less wasted effort.

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    White Line isn't a trail, it's just a line on a rock, I doubt it's going anywhere. Sick Boy? Whatever, I think what ever needs to be done to make Sedona the best destination and to develop a strong relationship between the mountain bikers and the FS is fine by me. Now I would have a problem with outlawing riding and freeriding on Sedona's sandstone, that would just get too weird and it's just too grey. I hope though with Tomahawk going and maybe Sickboy something is being planned for the more advanced trail riding experience. It's just trails man, if Hog Heaven has to go I wouldn't cry, maybe we could just improve Broken Arrow, Chapel, and Pigs Tail to be a much better loop? All kinds of ideas could be shared during discussions. What's Dog Walk?
    ra:

    Dog Walk is a new trail idea for dog walkers, hikers, trail runners and mountain bikers. It would replace Catwalk which was closed recently. The alignment would be similar to Catwalk but would be a whole new trail to give the volunteer crews some real challenging trail building experience.

    The original Catwalk trail was an old American Indian trail that stemmed from the Indian ruin on top of Pyramid. I assume it lead out to top of Schuerman Mt. where the Indians would have done a lot of deer hunting.

    With the adoption of other surrounding user built trails such as Special Ed and Pyramid and the inclusion of Dog Walk you would end up with one of the best 5.5 mile loops in Sedona.

    Adrian says we have over 300 miles of trails in Sedona now and Daniel P. asked that we add 300% more trails for future use. Hopefully with the adoption of a majority of the user built trails along with the development of a couple hundred miles of new trails we can develop a great recreation mecca.

    I believe Jennifer will be giving attendees at the next meeting a better idea how many miles of new system trails will be added in the upcoming years. Certainly with the addition of all the new trail mileage the Sedona trailbuilders will be kept busy working on FS system projects rather than non-system projects.

    As you know from years past when the landmanager wasn't addressing the growing need for trails, new trails popped up to fill the need.


    What are the next (or future) agenda items?
    The next meeting will be Thursday November 29 from 6 to 8 p.m., place to be announced. Following are desired agenda items for future meetings. Some must be dealt with first.
    • Discuss how to most effectively get information of this process out into the community.
    * Categorize the list of desired outcomes (from above) to discuss how we can organize this process and maximize productivity
    • Discuss how to best work with the categories (small groups, for example)
    • Share information about types of uses and where uses are happening now
    • Exchange information about natural resources, economic development, and other aspects and perspectives related to the “big picture” trails system
    Discuss what the FS administrative boundaries are for this process in terms of decision making and what the scope to the planning discussion can be (including information about the FS budget, grants available for trials and other aspects of the system, etc.)
    • Gather information for a trails inventory, existing conditions, issues/areas of concern
    • Define terms/glossary (trails classification matrix, how it works, etc.)
    Last edited by traildoc; 11-09-2012 at 07:15 PM.

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON View Post
    [B]

    However, if this new and improved Sedona mtb future is going to happen the leaders of this process need to get real. This process needs to be bottom-up (not top-down), OPEN, PUBLIC, TRANSPARENT, and COLLABORATIVE.
    It is. Show up to the meetings. They are open to everybody. Show up to the trail days and pitch in. They are also open to everybody. In order for it to be collaborative, again more people need to show up. The only way this process is not open, public, transparent (whatever the f*#& that is supposed to mean) and collaborative is if people don't show. Get in the loop by showing up to the meetings and trail days.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

  6. #181
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    Whoahey: Are you having an acid flashback?

    It's is apparent from your numerous cocky replies on this forum that you have dedicated years of your life to understanding the issues surrounding mountain biking in Sedona and the advocacy process.

    As a tireless advocate who agrees with the principles of COLLABORATION, OPENNESS, and TRANSPARENCY why did you choose not share the dates, times, and links of upcoming meetings with your fellow concerned local riders here on mtbr.com

    How are we to participate if you won't share this valuable information?

    Please also enlighten us with information relating to the person(s), group(s), and or organization(s) that have sought to work COLLABORATIVELY, OPENLY, and TRANSPARENTLY, together with the MAJORITY of Sedona's mountain bike community to determine which trails should be adopted, why they should be adopted, how they should be adopted, and then planned the resulting trail day(s)?

    Re Meetings:
    The most recent trail advocacy related meeting I can recall was the RTCA meeting on the 25th. I seem to recall being there. If any other meeting has taken place recently than I did not receive an invitation and will refer you to the comments in my previous post.

    Re Trail Days:
    I've personally organized an participated in two. Is that not enough for you?... Are you calling me a liar?

    Re Transparency:
    I sympathize with your frustration regarding the evolving definition of words but find your feeble use of faux profanity a bit impotent. Here's a link that should help you: Open government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and an excerpt:

    “Transparency in government is often credited with generating government accountability.[6]:1346 Transparency often allows citizens of a democracy to control their government, reducing government corruption, bribery and other malfeasance.”

    Keep up the good fight.
    CB

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    It is. Show up to the meetings. They are open to everybody. Show up to the trail days and pitch in. They are also open to everybody. In order for it to be collaborative, again more people need to show up. The only way this process is not open, public, transparent (whatever the f*#& that is supposed to mean) and collaborative is if people don't show. Get in the loop by showing up to the meetings and trail days.
    Woahey:

    Going to the meetings is definitely a good thing. Since it looks like one gets 30 seconds to express their hope for the future Coconino Forest trail system MTBR is allowing those of us who post here to form a synergistic consensus before we go to the meeting, so that when we get our turn at the meeting, we can articulate our desires clearly.

    Some of the responses I read from the 10/25 meeting were somewhat confusing and now that fifteen days or so has gone by it would be interesting if the people who attended would like to restate some of those original responses more clearly.

    If I had been at the meeting I would have asked for the following:

    My hope it that the sustainable user built trails be adopted and that when adopted signage (similar to what they use on the Klondke Bluff area in Moab) be installed to keep users from getting lost. I would also hope that the FS would have an adopt-a-trail system that allows experienced volunteers to maintain those adopted user built trails to the character they had when they were initially adopted, and that those individuals who adopt a trail can work on the trails when it is convenient for them to do so.

    Now so we can be clear what you are for, please share with us what you said at the meeting or what you would have liked to have said. If others would like to state what they would like to see happen with the future Coconino Forest trail system, please do so.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-signage-c.jpg  

    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-ekg.jpg  

    What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-hcrad.jpg  

    Last edited by traildoc; 11-10-2012 at 07:37 AM.

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON View Post
    Whoahey: Are you having an acid flashback?

    It's is apparent from your numerous cocky replies on this forum that you have dedicated years of your life to understanding the issues surrounding mountain biking in Sedona and the advocacy process.

    As a tireless advocate who agrees with the principles of COLLABORATION, OPENNESS, and TRANSPARENCY why did you choose not share the dates, times, and links of upcoming meetings with your fellow concerned local riders here on mtbr.com

    How are we to participate if you won't share this valuable information?
    Let me start by saying that nothing in my post was a personal attack. Obviously you took it as one, or many. No, no acid flashbacks. Thanks for your concern though. I didn't call you a liar. The language studies degree from Wikipedia University could use to be dropped to. It makes it much easier for transparency to evolve while working in a vacuum when everybody understands exactly what you mean unless you're trying to hide behind translucent language. Again, not a personal attack. I'm just trying to speak your language, but I am certain you can see that it can come across a little on the passive-agressive side, right?

    Thanks for calling me out; I haven't spent years of my life devoting my time to the Sedona trail system. In the 8 years that I have lived here, I've noticed a huge change in the relationship with the FS and bike community. In order for the change to continue in our favor, those who HAVE devoted years of their life must also change. It's not the same group of people we get to work with as who you worked with 10 years ago. We need to have a different mentality.

    You got an e-mail about the meeting on the 25th, you probably got e-mails about trail work days and such too. Why didn't you share the info? You know how easy it is to get involved if you really want to be. If there's more people who want to be involved in the process, I suggest they contact Adrian, or one of the local clubs and ask to be kept in the loop.

    My opinion is that a MAJORITY of the bike community just wants to ride. Having to listen to people complain about how the illegally built trail is going to get closed down is really getting old. Especially when those trails were "under the radar" before a few decided that every mile of social trail needed to be adopted into the system.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post

    My opinion is that a MAJORITY of the bike community just wants to ride. Having to listen to people complain about how the illegally built trail is going to get closed down is really getting old. Especially when those trails were "under the radar" before a few decided that every mile of social trail needed to be adopted into the system.
    Woahey:

    I am curious what trails you are talking about here? Are you implying that user built trails should have been kept a SECRET from the land manager? If so, do you currently ride SECRET trails in Sedona that people like the FS or myself have no clue about?

    See the problem with SECRET trails is that nothing stays a SECRET forever and when those SECRET trails are found out about at a time like this sh!t hits the fan. IMHO it is much better to fully disclose what's out there so we can get it adopted if it is a well thought out sustainable trail like Chuck Wagon or Mescal. So what if it needed some re-routing to get it approved.

    Now please tell us what you are for in 30 seconds or more. I know you are going to be a regular volunteer trail builder now, but what kind of trails are you going to be working on, user built or new. If new which one?

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Woahey:
    Now so we can be clear what you are for, please share with us what you said at the meeting or what you would have liked to have said. If others would like to state what they would like to see happen with the future Coconino Forest trail system, please do so.
    Unfortunately I had to be at work at 3am the next morning so I missed the meeting. I would like to see some trail ratings be put in place and maintenance standards that match the ratings. This way trails will retain their technical levels.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Unfortunately I had to be at work at 3am the next morning so I missed the meeting. I would like to see some trail ratings be put in place and maintenance standards that match the ratings. This way trails will retain their technical levels.
    Woahey:

    So give us an example of what the rating looks like for Hangover or Highline and write up a description of that rating, so I have a clue what you are talking about.

    Please tell me you are going to be doing the volunteer work on Slim Shady tomorrow. I built a trail once and called it No Excuses. I had this friend who had so many excuses for not being able to ride certain sections of the trail I built, I thought it would be a good name for the trail.

    Are you for keeping user built trails in Sedona a Secret form the FS? Yes or No Are you currently riding any Secret trails in the Coconino National Forest? Obviously it is not illegal to do so, so you can be honest with your fellow MTBR viewers.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Will the Future Be for the Sedona Mountain Bike Trail System?????????????-ratings.jpg  


  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Woahey:

    So give us an example of what the rating looks like for Hangover or Highline and write up a description of that rating, so I have a clue what you are talking about.

    Please tell me you are going to be doing the volunteer work on Slim Shady tomorrow. I built a trail once and called it No Excuses. I had this friend who had so many excuses for not being able to ride certain sections of the trail I built, I thought it would be a good name for the trail.

    Are you for keeping user built trails in Sedona a Secret form the FS? Yes or No Are you currently riding any Secret trails in the Coconino National Forest? Obviously it is not illegal to do so, so you can be honest with your fellow MTBR viewers.
    Woahey:

    Come on dude you can do it, what's your answer

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Woahey:

    So give us an example of what the rating looks like for Hangover or Highline and write up a description of that rating, so I have a clue what you are talking about.

    Please tell me you are going to be doing the volunteer work on Slim Shady tomorrow. I built a trail once and called it No Excuses. I had this friend who had so many excuses for not being able to ride certain sections of the trail I built, I thought it would be a good name for the trail.

    Are you for keeping user built trails in Sedona a Secret form the FS? Yes or No Are you currently riding any Secret trails in the Coconino National Forest? Obviously it is not illegal to do so, so you can be honest with your fellow MTBR viewers.
    I didn't say I wanted to come up with a rating system. I said I think one should be put in place.

    There are no secret trails in Sedona. You know that. You even gave up yourself on your own illegal projects.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

  14. #189
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    OMG Woahey! True. Change is the only constant. That said, I'm talking about principles. Sure, when it comes to people everyone needs to change a bit... So, why is it that you keep getting called out? Maybe it's because you're posts resemble those of a troll; injecting drama into valuable and important discussions when you don't agree with the person who is posting?

    Re Sharing Info:
    “You got an e-mail about the meeting on the 25th, you probably got e-mails about trail work days and such too. Why didn't you share the info? You know how easy it is to get involved if you really want to be. If there's more people who want to be involved in the process, I suggest they contact Adrian, or one of the local clubs and ask to be kept in the loop.”

    Thanks for the advice but, I have shared this info: I, along with other local mountain bikers spent quite a bit of time founding the Sedona Moutnain Bike Club, a Chapter of IMBA. www.sedonamtbclub.com. I think you will agree that although the site is far from perfect the information you are speaking of is shared there.

    Re Opinons:
    “My opinion is that a MAJORITY of the bike community just wants to ride. Having to listen to people complain about how the illegally built trail is going to get closed down is really getting old. Especially when those trails were "under the radar" before a few decided that every mile of social trail needed to be adopted into the system.”

    The problem with opinions is that we all have one. As for complaining about losing trails, if you can't take the heat then why are you standing in the kitchen... right next to the friggin stove!!?

    Back to Sedona Mountain Bike Advocacy:
    Our local mountain bike advocacy problem is not unique. What is unique is that we have a small group of people who seem to feel that their opinions represent the will of the public but, who have been unwilling to put their money where their mouth is publicly. That's too bad because it suggests arrogance and that causes me to question their motive.

    Great solutions are immediately apparent when they are presented because they are usually simple, well thought out, clear, and easy to understand. As a member of Sedona's mountain bike community you have an interest in having your voice and wishes heard. Don't you want a democratic grass roots mountain bike organization that guarantees this?

    In order to ensure a quality outcome we need maximum participation from local mountain bikers. In order to get maximum participation we need to create tools that work with our community's diverse schedules and lifestyles and permit them to be informed and active when they can be. We need the following:

    1. A non-partisan Website - Where objective content/info on the issue(s) is published for all to see and read. The site should be easy to find, navigate, and understand.

    2. Time - Give the public a reasonable amount of time to read and understand the issues before a response is required (many people's schedules are less flexible than you may think).

    3. An uncensored forum - that fosters open debate, Q&A, and discussion of pros and cons of all the issues where participants are discouraged from thread hijacking and, trolling etc.

    4. Electronic Voting Via the Internet – Self explanatory. Members vote on the issues. System must be audit-able and verifiable.

    What do you say Woahey? Time for a change?
    CB

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    I didn't say I wanted to come up with a rating system. I said I think one should be put in place.
    .
    Woahey:

    You crack me up " I would like to see some trail ratings be put in place and maintenance standards that match the ratings. This way trails will retain their technical levels"

    You don't want to come up with the trail ratings you want someone else to come up with them? You remind me of my wife telling me how nice it would be for me to fully landscape the yard.

    Are you going to work on Slim Shady tomorrow or do want other people to work on it?

    You know you would be one of the first people to go out and ride a new secret user built trail if while working at Bike & Bean the number one Sedona trailbuilder came into the shop with a sh!t eating grin on his face and told you about his new masterpiece, and invited you and the B&B crew out to ride it. After the ride you would tell him let's keep it a secret so traildoc won't put it on his map so the masses could ride it. You being an elitist would only share the trail with your friends who would share it with their friends and so on until I finally got word of it and put it on my map, right?

    Well, you have had the good fortune to ride most of the cool user built trails without any access issues for a long time and now it's time for the FS to come up with a ten year trail plan. According to you there aren't any secret trails to be left off the list for possible adoption, so that is a good thing, right?

    Now all we have to do is develop a synergistic consensus with the hikers, trail runners, dog walkers and equestrians and show the FS we want to help them make the Sedona trail system on of the best in the country. Hopefully the time is right to make it happen.

    In the best case scenario we have no clue what the possibilities are because there has never been any transparency. Obama said his administration was going to be the most transparent ever which we all knew was a lie. Like the Obama administration the FS can't be transparent, so they have had to OK a mediator to come in and deal with the user groups on their behalf.

    Out of all the mentioned user groups the mountain bikers are the most passionate because of trails that are unique to our sport. When Phil and I were good buddies and were busting our butts working on the Aerie trail, we would discuss that all that mattered to mountain bikers were trails, trails, trails.

    It will be interesting if the hiking community will seek out getting any of the Shadows trails adopted. I know a bunch of the Westerners hike those trails as non club events and they say a number of them are really fun. If the FS doesn't adopt any of those trails will they be considered illegal and subject to citation if users continue to use them? These are interesting questions don't you think?

    I have asked you if it would be OK to close the one trails built by the Phantom and so far you have not given me an answer. I wonder if he will attend any of the meetings in hopes of trying to get his trail adopted. So far the number one trail builder has done well with the adoption process so one could only hope that others will see there projects adopted, time will tell.

    Well now there is a BIG trail planning thing going on and we have no clue how many total miles of new system trails the FS can possibly allow in the next ten years. Maybe we will find out at the next meeting on 11/29.
    Last edited by traildoc; 11-10-2012 at 11:49 PM.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Woahey:

    You don't want to come up with the trail ratings you want someone else to come up with them?
    I think the ratings should be a collaborative effort. I don't think ratings should be based on one persons skill level.
    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Are you going to work on Slim Shady tomorrow or do want other people to work on it?
    Yes. Where will you be? Oh yeah....
    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    You know you would be one of the first people to go out and ride a new secret user built trail if while working at Bike & Bean the number one Sedona trailbuilder came into the shop with a sh!t eating grin on his face and told you about his new masterpiece, and invited you and the B&B crew out to ride it. After the ride you would tell him let's keep it a secret so traildoc won't put it on his map so the masses could ride it. You being an elitist would only share the trail with your friends who would share it with their friends and so on until I finally got word of it and put it on my map, right?
    For the last time, I have nothing to do with Bike and Bean. Sure, I show up for their group rides but that is it. Please stop using me to be slanderous to a business. To answer your question, I don't feel that it is appropriate to post maps on the web with illegally built trails. I'm not saying I would keep it to myself, I just wouldn't lead a group of journalists with helmet cameras on Tomahawk before the trail is even finished. I don't quite understand your point on this, though, as I highly doubt anybody will be building any trail illegally. They made a good example out of 2 people who were just trying to enhance the user experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Well, you have had the good fortune to ride most of the cool user built trails without any access issues for a long time and now it's time for the FS to come up with a ten year trail plan. According to you there aren't any secret trails to be left off the list for possible adoption, so that is a good thing, right?
    Sure. It is great. Just don't complain that trails like Damfino, etc get closed because they go through a RNA. Or that trails like Slim Shady need reroutes because of erosional issues or go through arch sites.
    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    If the FS doesn't adopt any of those trails will they be considered illegal and subject to citation if users continue to use them?
    This is the million dollar question. I have one for you too. If the FS asked for you to remove any trails that are non-system from your maps, will you do it or will you think it is elitist for them to want to keep travel on non-system trails to a minimum?
    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I have asked you if it would be OK to close the one trails built by the Phantom and so far you have not given me an answer. I wonder if he will attend any of the meetings in hopes of trying to get his trail adopted. So far the number one trail builder has done well with the adoption process so one could only hope that others will see there projects adopted, time will tell.
    I don't want to see any trails closed. Unfortunately we know it will happen to some of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Well now there is a BIG trail planning thing going on and we have no clue how many total miles of new system trails the FS can possibly allow in the next ten years. Maybe we will find out at the next meeting on 11/29.
    Sweet. So you will be back in Sedona for this one right? I sure hope so that you can ask the questions to somebody who actually knows every little detail rather than continually ask me to speculate what is going to happen.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

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    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON View Post
    Re Sharing Info:

    Thanks for the advice but, I have shared this info: I, along with other local mountain bikers spent quite a bit of time founding the Sedona Moutnain Bike Club, a Chapter of IMBA. www.sedonamtbclub.com. I think you will agree that although the site is far from perfect the information you are speaking of is shared there.
    So...if you have already shared this info, why are you asking me to do so?

    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON View Post
    Back to Sedona Mountain Bike Advocacy:
    Our local mountain bike advocacy problem is not unique. What is unique is that we have a small group of people who seem to feel that their opinions represent the will of the public but, who have been unwilling to put their money where their mouth is publicly. That's too bad because it suggests arrogance and that causes me to question their motive.
    It is too bad because if you're questioning peoples motives, then it is hard to for you to be on the same team as them. Are you saying you want to divide and conquer?

    [QUOTE=CANADIANBACON;9862286]
    Great solutions are immediately apparent when they are presented because they are usually simple, well thought out, clear, and easy to understand. As a member of Sedona's mountain bike community you have an interest in having your voice and wishes heard. Don't you want a democratic grass roots mountain bike organization that guarantees this?
    [QUOTE/]
    Isn't this what the SMBC is supposed to be? Not only is there the SMBC but also the VVCC that fits this description.

    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON View Post
    We need the following:

    1. A non-partisan Website - Where objective content/info on the issue(s) is published for all to see and read. The site should be easy to find, navigate, and understand.

    2. Time - Give the public a reasonable amount of time to read and understand the issues before a response is required (many people's schedules are less flexible than you may think).

    3. An uncensored forum - that fosters open debate, Q&A, and discussion of pros and cons of all the issues where participants are discouraged from thread hijacking and, trolling etc.

    4. Electronic Voting Via the Internet – Self explanatory. Members vote on the issues. System must be audit-able and verifiable.
    1- Again, couldn't this be the SMBC website? Or the VVCC website?
    2- Sure. If there are monthly meetings, maybe at the end of this month there can be an informational sheet about what they want to hash out at the next meeting. Who will decide which issues are more important and need to be addressed immediately?
    3- Isn't this an uncensored forum? I bet there can even be a division of the AZ forum devoted to "Sedona Trail Advocacy" or something. Wouldn't that be nice?
    4- I really like the idea of voting. If there was a website where people could vote on the issues, then these big meetings will be unnecessary. All you would need is representatives from each user group to meet with the FS, right? I bet this will speed up the process greatly. The idea of voting just may be the most intelligent idea on this entire thread. Way to go, sir.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  18. #193
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    The Evolution of the Sedona Trail System

    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    I think the ratings should be a collaborative effort. I don't think ratings should be based on one persons skill level.
    Yes. Where will you be? Oh yeah....

    For the last time, I have nothing to do with Bike and Bean. Sure, I show up for their group rides but that is it. Please stop using me to be slanderous to a business. To answer your question, I don't feel that it is appropriate to post maps on the web with illegally built trails. I'm not saying I would keep it to myself, I just wouldn't lead a group of journalists with helmet cameras on Tomahawk before the trail is even finished. I don't quite understand your point on this, though, as I highly doubt anybody will be building any trail illegally. They made a good example out of 2 people who were just trying to enhance the user experience.

    Sure. It is great. Just don't complain that trails like Damfino, etc get closed because they go through a RNA. Or that trails like Slim Shady need reroutes because of erosional issues or go through arch sites.

    This is the million dollar question. I have one for you too. If the FS asked for you to remove any trails that are non-system from your maps, will you do it or will you think it is elitist for them to want to keep travel on non-system trails to a minimum?

    I don't want to see any trails closed. Unfortunately we know it will happen to some of them.

    Sweet. So you will be back in Sedona for this one right? I sure hope so that you can ask the questions to somebody who actually knows every little detail rather than continually ask me to speculate what is going to happen.
    Woahey:

    I commend you on answering my questions.

    Regarding trail ratings you know I had previously given a lot of thought to giving every mountain bike trail a rating, but when I did people like you didn't agree with my rating, so I gave up. I have a tendency to rate trails to the most technical feature on the trail. For example I would give Highline a double black because of the backside. I wouldn't want an intermediate skilled rider with poor judgement riding out to the end of the trail and try to ride the difficult sections and break their collarbone flying over the bars.

    I believe you have given this rating thing a lot of thought because we have had previous discussions about it. Since you brought up the subject and said that is one thing you would like to have incorporated into the new trail plan don't you think you could get some like minded individuals together at the meeting and make that happen by being the chairman of the committee?

    I use to run a houseboat trip for a ski club I belonged to. We would rent 3 houseboats on the Sacramento delta. We had 15 people on each houseboat for three days. Before we left the dock I would ask the group if we needed a complaint committee for the complaints that I would be getting on the trip. No one wanted to be the complaint committee chairman, so I said that was fine with me, but the first person to come to me with me with a complaint, I was going to make them chairman.

    Since I don't drink coffee I only bought three jars of instant coffee for each boat. Well about one hour into the trip there were about 20 complainers, who formed the houseboat complaint committee and headed out on one of the ski boats to find some fresh ground coffee for the rest of the trip.

    To answer your question about asking someone who knows the answers to my questions, but I keep asking you rather then them, the reason is that the people in the know can't be transparent with us. When I ask how many miles of new trail the FS is willing to bring into the system in the next year or year after or in the next ten years they can't come up with a number like Moab of a 150 miles.

    The fact that I bring up the idea may get people to think it is possible in other communities so why not in Sedona.

    Jennifer and I use to have a good relationship. We use to stop and give each other a hug. I can still give my ex-wife a hug, but I don't think Jennifer is in a hugging mood anymore with me. She will give others a hug that do the same thing as me, but keep it a secret. By thinking I could be transparent with Jennifer was my downfall. If I had said nothing about my trail repairs the LEO couldn't have cited me for doing necessary trail repairs. You see being transparent doesn't always work.

    In Sedona user built trails are bad until they are considered good by an adoption process, then they are really cool. When my buddy Nod rides the Dry Creek area after a day of guiding at Enchantment he tells me about all of the masses out there having a great time now.

    You see Nod was one of the original founders of the Mescal trail route. He and Rama rode out there during the Stone Age and found those cool slickrock ledges. Now others get to enjoy the experience Nod and Rama and the Mountain Bike Heaven group kept to themselves for many years. Hopefully that is OK with you. If it isn't tuff sh!t.
    Last edited by traildoc; 11-11-2012 at 09:23 AM.

  19. #194
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    Woahey: Here are some answers to your questions.

    Re Sharing Info:
    Q: "So...if you have already shared this info, why are you asking me to do so? "

    A: Because it has become apparent that not ALL information relating to the decision making process (trail adoptions, trail days, adopt a trail program) is being shared with ALL of the local mountain bike community, or advocacy organizations.

    It should not be necessary for people like me to go to mtbr.com to find this information. I am elated though that mtbr.com exists as now there is a public record of this problem.

    Re Back to Sedona Mountain Bike Advocacy:
    Q:"It is too bad because if you're questioning peoples motives, then it is hard to for you to be on the same team as them. Are you saying you want to divide and conquer?"

    A: Really? You do not want to understand the motives of those with whom you wish to cooperate? I guess you don't understand the RTCA facilitation process where everyone in the room was asked to introduce themselves and say why they were there ( what they would like to see change). Why do business owners interview employees and have annual reviews. Bummer that you don't get the concept.

    Q: "Isn't this what the SMBC is supposed to be? Not only is there the SMBC but also the VVCC that fits this description. ".

    A: I don't agree with you here. I believe that both advocacy organizations have the potential to become this but currently don't act this way. My guess is that the idea of a directly democratic advocacy organization freaks some out and might threaten the status or privilege of others. Just my opinion though.

    Q: "Again, couldn't this be the SMBC website? Or the VVCC website?"

    A: Yes it could. However this would require a big change in how those websites and organizations function.

    Q: "Sure. If there are monthly meetings, maybe at the end of this month there can be an informational sheet about what they want to hash out at the next meeting.

    A: What do you mean "Maybe"? The next agenda should be generated by the members!! It would be quite easy to create a doc on line and open to all members to submit agenda items that are most important to them.

    Q: "Who will decide which issues are more important and need to be addressed immediately?"

    A: The members set the agenda by voting issues up or down. The K.I.S.S. principle always works best, and what's the point of belonging to an organization if you can't have a roll in steering it?

    Q: "Isn't this an uncensored forum? I bet there can even be a division of the AZ forum devoted to "Sedona Trail Advocacy" or something. Wouldn't that be nice?"

    A: mtbr.com is a great place, and one of the only places that one can more or less speak their mind about mountain biking. I hope it will remain this way. That said there is an opportunity to create a website where only members can post. This is what some members of the Sedona Mountainbike Club board would like to see. However, mtbr.com was raised at a meeting and a few board members saw it as a negative issue. I would like to know if you and other members of the public would value that opportunity?

    Q: "I really like the idea of voting. If there was a website where people could vote on the issues, then these big meetings will be unnecessary. "

    A: Do you really believe that we won't have big meetings once tools like this exist? I know that we are all pressed for time but taking the opportunity to meet your fellow trail user is an opportunity to learn and possibly make new friends. No doubt their is a price in everything. And for sure, I hates me a town hall wind session or scream fest

    Q: "All you would need is representatives from each user group to meet with the FS, right?"

    A: Absolutely not!!!!
    I do not need nor want a "representative" speaking on my behalf. The web and shareable documents (like google docs) make traditional 'representative governance' a thing of the past. When combined with a voting system the community is empowered to make decisions that an advocacy group or land manager receives as a true representation of the publics will. No filtering or picking and choosing of the publics choices in this scenario.

    Q: " I bet this will speed up the process greatly. The idea of voting just may be the most intelligent idea on this entire thread. Way to go, sir."

    A: Thanks Woahey but... Slow down grasshopper!

    The problem all along has been that locals have been whipped-up into a frenzy unecessarily by the threat of a closure order. That threat caused some members of our community to focus on coming up with a solution quickly. Well... It took a long time to get here and it is going to take a while to get to where we need to be.

    Thinking that you can choose speed over quality for this process = FAIL!

    Hope these answers shed a bit more light on the current situation and serve to open more dialog that actually bears fruit.

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Woahey:

    Regarding trail ratings you know I had previously given a lot of thought to giving every mountain bike trail a rating, but when I did people like you didn't agree with my rating, so I gave up. I have a tendency to rate trails to the most technical feature on the trail.
    Rating a trail by its toughest spot makes total sense to me. But how difficult a section of trail is can be really a matter of perspective. I heard a mtb'er on the trail day today say that one of the sections that got fixed "looked better but still wasn't rideable". So a definition of what a double black trail consists of needs to be made. Something like having a 16" wide tread with a big drop off/cliff/steep hill on one side, many off camber turns, tight switchbacks, steps 16" or more, steep rolls and descents up to a 65* grade. Obviously, I haven't actually done any measurements, but you get the idea, right? Once there is a definition of the ratings, it will be much easier to actually rate the trails.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Rating a trail by its toughest spot makes total sense to me. But how difficult a section of trail is can be really a matter of perspective. I heard a mtb'er on the trail day today say that one of the sections that got fixed "looked better but still wasn't rideable". So a definition of what a double black trail consists of needs to be made. Something like having a 16" wide tread with a big drop off/cliff/steep hill on one side, many off camber turns, tight switchbacks, steps 16" or more, steep rolls and descents up to a 65* grade. Obviously, I haven't actually done any measurements, but you get the idea, right? Once there is a definition of the ratings, it will be much easier to actually rate the trails.
    Woahey:

    You are off to a great start. I like your definition of a double black trail. What is you definition of a single black?

    I am not sure what rating you are giving Slim Shady after you talked to that guy riding down Slim Shady. Sounds to me like he might think some sections are single black what do you think?

    Now that you worked on Slim Shady are you going to adopt that trail and keep it to it's current character? Would a trail worker with your current experience be allowed to do the needed maintenance on the trail in the coming years or is that only going to be done by someone with Phil's experience?

    I would like to adopt a trail like Hangover once they do the rework on it, but I have no clue if they FS will allow someone with my trail building experience to do the type of work you guys did today on Slim Shady. Part of the fun of adopting a trail is keeping it in good condition not just picking up litter or dog poop.

    Does anyone know who the new adopt-a-trail coordinator is going to be and if they are being paid or it's a volunteer position?

  22. #197
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    A few thoughts on a rating system. Since we are using the standard north american snow sports symbols I would like to chime in. A black diamond trail could be one with option lines or you could even give it two ratings, as in blue square/black diamond representing that it has option lines. If the main line that the rider naturally flows into are the easier lines then it would be blue/black if the main lines are the more difficult lines with less obvious easy lines around features then it would be black/blue. If a trail has expert lines and because the terrain does not allow options then if it's only a short section or much less of those kinds of moves then I think it should be a single black. If the majority of trail has very difficult sections without go arounds (the kind of lines that the average rider would walk) then it might qualify as a double black.

    Even though the overall rating would be rated as such a map could further visually demonstrate what sections of a black diamond trail even though most of the trail is more like a blue has been given the black diamond rating. I know it sounds confusing but to me it makes sense, without being able to actually draw you a map I'm not sure I can explain it so well.

    A trail like High Line to me is mostly a blue with some black and the short switchback section toward the end is more of a double black rating but does the whole trail deserve that rating? I don't think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    A few thoughts on a rating system. Since we are using the standard north american snow sports symbols I would like to chime in. A black diamond trail could be one with option lines or you could even give it two ratings, as in blue square/black diamond representing that it has option lines. If the main line that the rider naturally flows into are the easier lines then it would be blue/black if the main lines are the more difficult lines with less obvious easy lines around features then it would be black/blue. If a trail has expert lines and because the terrain does not allow options then if it's only a short section or much less of those kinds of moves then I think it should be a single black. If the majority of trail has very difficult sections without go arounds (the kind of lines that the average rider would walk) then it might qualify as a double black.

    Even though the overall rating would be rated as such a map could further visually demonstrate what sections of a black diamond trail even though most of the trail is more like a blue has been given the black diamond rating. I know it sounds confusing but to me it makes sense, without being able to actually draw you a map I'm not sure I can explain it so well.

    A trail like High Line to me is mostly a blue with some black and the short switchback section toward the end is more of a double black rating but does the whole trail deserve that rating? I don't think so.
    RA:

    Great Idea, maybe Woahey would allow you on his committee. You guys could work something up in the CLOUD prior to the meeting or after the meeting when he explains his idea to the moderator. Don't want to get to ahead of our selves here.

    The only existing system trail I know of that has an optional line is Mescal and it has two. Before leaving Sedona in June there was a small rock on the ground for the one to the southeast with arrows drawn in with a felt tip pen saying <------harder easier------>. It may still be there, but wasn't really fixed very well.

    It will be interesting when they adopt Highline if it will have signs to all the numerous optional lines.

    There is a semi-secret line over to the north side of Cathedral that no one is supposed to know about that is being ridden by the guys like you and Ranger 77. That route could have that kind of signage on it. I wonder if that will be adopted when they adopt Highline proper?

    I have only heard rumors that Phil and Freak are looking into a new downhill trail to replace Tomahawk when it's closed. That may have optional lines for old guys like me that are too scared to do the super techy spots.

    I rode National on South Mountain the other day and there is a new line that my buddy Tray rode, it is above the Waterfall maybe 800 yards and has a real off camber roll in on solid rock to a five foot flat and at least an 8' vertical to an OK tranny. It scared the crap out of me watching him do it, but I think you would love to ride that. I can see where a double back symbol would be appropriate there.
    Last edited by traildoc; 11-12-2012 at 09:51 AM.

  24. #199
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    mtbr.com was raised at a meeting and a few board members saw it as a negative issue. I would like to know if you and other members of the public would value that opportunity?
    =====================
    mtbr.com = There is no better way to reach everyone at one time ... "All mountainbikers" or "All Arizona mountainbikers". It is open to everyone, it is moderated. Every person gets to speak up (Post) or simply sit back and view the issues (Lurk).

    I wonder what some of the negatives were?

    zul
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    I have been away from this thread for a while, and it has really developed. So I have a lot of thoughts which may run a bit long. Apologies in advance.

    I think than most of the MTB community are in agreement about most of the issues. Most of us want more trails to be brought into the system, appropriate signage, a wide variety of experience/ability levels to select from, a rating system which is representative clear and understandable, preservation of the unique nature of the trails in this area, a system which puts back into the trail system so that we don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Note that I used the work MOST, and this is my opinion.

    Where things start to diverge is in how we get from A to B. This is the biggest issue I have with the existing process, and this is the biggest difference between various groups (be it club, businesses, non-governmental organizations, or managing agencies).

    Canadian Bacon talks about a democratic process, transparency, etc. This is one camp.

    Woahey talks about representatives (I am pushing it to the other end for discussion, though I don't think it was presented that way by Woahey) acting on behalf of the community. This is the other camp.

    It is likely that most fall in the middle, but the system is currently skewed to one side.

    Traditionally, and currently, Sedona has been managed in a representative setup. There are actors who attempt to speak on behalf of the MTB community. While there is nothing wrong with the concept, the way it has been executed is not transparent.

    The RTCA program is a step in the democratic/transparent direction. I think this is good, but it is NOT guaranteed, and it is at least a 1 year process. As someone said above, doing it right takes time. Others indicate that there is some type of rush to get things done. It is my belief that while we don't have forever, or even years, this is a mechanism to ram things through with the least amount of impediment by the democratic process. So to that end I ask the following question: What is in such dire jeopardy that we have to rush things through without taking the time to do it in a collective and democratic way? If someone says...we have to get it done before the FS takes it away, then that implies an artificial deadline imposed by the managing agency. Their support and participation in the RTCA process indicates that they are obviously at least considering this democratic process vs. a forced process. Who stands to gain by ramming decisions though on behalf of the MTB community without their consent behind closed doors? So long as the trail builders do not resume building there is no FS emergency to push them toward such action. It is in their longer term interest to work with the community.

    I do think that there is a real concern with someone drumming up a false emergency to break the current trail builder community "moratorium" on building trails. Brewer road was publicly positioned (via the news media) as a MTB rogue trail builder breaking the law. The MTB community was put on its heals in a defensive position. Guilty with no chance of even trying to prove innocence. Too bad it was really one of the local residence "improving" and adding to an old social trail to access Airport Mesa. No one stepped in to defend the MTB community in the process, especially those who claim to represent said MTB community. I personally regret falling into the trap of accepting condemnation without exercising greater due diligence. I certainly have learned from it and hope to not make such a mistake again. Who stood to gain from the whole messing thing? That's what should be on our minds if such a fiasco recurs.

    Here is an example of representation vs. democratization. Two people have walked hi-line and identified the best way to re-route and improve during the upcoming trail work project. Now the MTB community is compelled to show up and work their vision. They are representatives who make decisions for you and I, but have they sought our input? Fortunately the two have extensive trail building experience over many years. I am not criticizing them, but rather the current process. They are good people, and put a lot of work into the land. What if it wasn't two people with such experience? Where is your, mine, and the rest of the MTB community input in the process? And what happens to the two representative if they happen to get it wrong? Is it fair to them to be condemned for attempting to do something they believe to be right? Slippery slope stuff here.

    Again, for most of us getting to B is the goal. How we get to B, by abdication of decision and blindly following whoever is anointed (often self anointed) OR participating in an open process where we at least get some input..that is the real question.

    While you mull over that question in your head, consider this. Jennifer Burns, who most of the MTB community agrees has been a positive FS direction as of late, is reported to be departing her position within the next 12 months. I heard retirement, but cannot fully confirm. What structure has been set in place by the existing MTB community leadership to address the possibility of a much less MTB friendly replacement?

    You might go back to my statement above about "what's the rush" and say I just answered my own question. I say this. The rush should not be to make hasty decisions due to imposed timelines. The rush should be to build a solid, democratic, transparent process to deal as a community with ALL future decisions. We react to one thing and we loose. We proactively put a system in place to deal with all issues and we win over and over.
    Grammar and spelling errors are complementary.

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