What Does SIGHTINGS Have to Do With An Archeological Presentation???
I notice that some of the viewerís tonight were at the latest RTCA meeting on Thursday night. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there a section in Travis's archeology presentation that referred to SIGHTINGS or views or something like that? Wasn't there also a very scenic picture of Cathedral Rock in the background and maybe that picture was taken from somewhere close to the Highline trail?
Didn't Travis say he communicates with the tribes regularly and they are concerned and he is concerned that they are concerned because he takes his job very seriously
Can anyone explain why you have a picture of Cathedral under the topic of Sightings in a presentation on archeology?
I look forward to the notes on that presentation it was very interesting, I personally learned a lot. One thing I learned is that Travis said that there are artifacts everywhere in Sedona. He even is concerned that they are in places close to Sedona he has never been to. He has a ton of paper work to do and meeting with the tribe takes up most of his time. When he does meet with the tribe it seems like there concerned pretty regularly.
The next thing I learned is that many native American dwellings have fallen down and are now under the ground a couple inches or so. In the old days the archeologists would dig up a dwelling and find a bunch of important stuff and study it then they would take the artifacts and put them in storage with a bunch of other artifacts. Now they have tons of artifacts in warehouses all over the place and they have to pay storage fees FOREVER.
Consequently, what they do now for the most part (I could be wrong on this part). They leave the site alone and they let it degrade naturally for however long it takes for it to degrade. But if for some reason they get the funding in the future they will head out with a crew of archeologists and dig up more stuff so they can see what 77 Rangers relatives were up to 45 generations ago. I donít even know what my relatives were up to two generations ago, and it causes me to do a lot of MTBR postings to document my past for future generations to study me.
OK some of the time people go out and build trails close to an archeological site and they do a crummy job of construction and it causes the underground site downstream, that no one knew about to get washed away, so that no one could study those artifacts and see if they were possibly related to 77Ranger. That would be very helpful for him to know and the rest of us would benefit from that knowledge. If all the artifacts that were lost due to the erosion could be found they would have to be studied then stored forever.
It seemed like Travis thinks there is a HUGE cost to storing artifacts, and that digging up archeological sites concerns the tribes because they are concerned that there will be a bad things happen to the site, and the artifacts destined to the warehouse I know I must have had some really great relatives that I know nothing about. It concerns me, that someone might steal some pots and pans that my relatives used to cook their food.
OK I get all that concern, but now that the FS doesnít have to much more space to store stuff why donít they take it back to the tribe and give it back to them so they can use the artifacts or they can have it closer to where they live, so they can visit it easier? What they could do is keep the really cool stuff in the warehouse that isnít broken and take all the not so important broken stuff to where the tribes live. The delivery people could pretend there isn't any real non broken cool stuff back at the warehouse.
When Travis said that now they just leave the stuff buried so it will degrade over the next million years I get the picture that we have enough artifacts in warehouses to last us a long time and itís a better monetary policy to leave it buried so hopefully looters canít find it and take it home to store it for free.
Did anyone see the Neanderthal documentary last week on NOVA, that was cool? Does anyone know if there are documentaries like the Neanderthal documentary on all the Sedona artifacts in those warehouses to watch so a simple person like me would get a better understanding why we are storing all that stuff?
Since I now know I am part Neanderthal, I feel much better about why I enjoy meat. It must be an ancestral thing. Ranger 77 are you concerned when you ride in Sedona now that you know there are artifacts all over the place here and you are riding over them constantly? And if you go out to the House Mountain area there could be a ton of stuff that no one knows about out there.
I donít really think the FS wants to know about it either because then they would have to study it and then store it, but Travis has way too much paper work to really study the stuff these days., so leave it buried for the next generation of archeologists that may have a bigger budget to be able to study and store more stuff. The direction the US budget is going that seems impossible there will ever be the funding for much more storing of artifacts, let alone study it. If you canít store the stuff after studying it or you canít study it because you have no budget then I am sorry Travis you are going to have to enjoy doing paperwork.
I wonder if the study of the Human Genome will ever trump Archeology and that actually Travisís job will someday be replaced with something like that, that doesnít take a lot of storage? I am curious what the US pays for artifact storage each year? You wonder if the native Americans would rather have the knuckle heads in DC bury all the artifacts that are in the warehouses now then sell the warehouses and take the money and spend it on scholarships for their young generations of native americans to learn their history, so when guys like Ranger 77 die at least they will know their history, so they wonít be like me totally clueless about my relatives.
Look at the negative affect it has had on me.
To be continued when we get the notes or sooner if anyone responds.
The management plan is to preserve artifacts in situ and avoid those areas if at all possible. They only do remediation if a site is in jeopardy. This is just an opinion but most archeologists employed by the FS, BLM or National Parks are primarily focused on monitoring and mitigation. Most of them don't do research but the materials are then available to the researchers who use whatever's been excavated to further the understanding of Native American history.
While it might seem like many of these sites are trivial or just some broken pottery to the mis-informed, the FS has not choice in the matter. It's Federal Law.
Is There Hoarding Going On???????
Originally Posted by rockman
Are any of the artifacts in storage studied out? If so why not return them to the tribe they are associated with, so you can make room for artifacts that haven't been studied .Then the tribe could decide what to do with them. They must be worth something to a collector and the tribe might want to sell them at a high end action or give them to the elders in their tribe to be passed down to their grand children.
What do you think 77Ranger? Your ancestors go back 45 generations would you take some of those nice studied out pieces and distribute them to your family members? Do you know any of those tribe members Travis meets with that you could ask them if they want any of the already studied stuff?
It seems like there could possibly be some hoarding going on, that needs to be managed a lot better. Is there any collecting of stuff going on at your place of residence that might be better managed?
I know my 92 year old mom was a hoarder and I suffer from that disease to a certain degree. I have a lot of bike stuff that is hard to let go to someone who might use it.
Do you think there is any of that going on? Maybe they could give some of it to the students who graduate in archeology, they certainly would appreciate its value more than anyone else, and if someone wanted it back later to study it again the archeology student could give it back.
Something must be able to be done to open up some more storage space for artifacts that still need to be studied? Do they have a lot of people ready to study the artifacts for free or is there some kind of study charge that the taxpayers have to pay for? Would a guy like Travis want to volunteer to study those artifacts on his day off as a volunteer? Kind of like Person X does his volunteer work for the FS?
Hmm, how do I feel about this? I'm fine riding over a random pottery shard every now and then. I obviously think it's worth protecting the arch sites and the human history that's preserved in the area. In the grand scheme of things preserving the human record is more important than the recreation of a small fraction of the population. As far as the forest service giving my family, I love my family but a bad thing happened to us a little while back and were kind of a mess right now. I know that the federal government has its flaws but I trust the fs with that stuff more than I trust the tribe. I love mountain biking but it's not the most important thing in the world.
The finding and studying of a cultural site is also a legitimate recreation activity even if it is not the intended form of recreation. This opportunity should be protected and not be limited to just Palatki or V-V.
Yes, Taka's Vortex Walkabout to Shaman's Cave is a perfect example:D
Originally Posted by justinwp
Shaman's Cave Sedona AZ" -- Taka's Vortex Walkabout - YouTube
"dockman", oh yeah........
Originally Posted by justinwp
Help me here at the meeting Travis said trails that take users (mainly hikers I presume) out further than than the Bell Rock and Cathedral trailheads allow those users to get closer to a potential undiscovered site easier, so it's a bad thing. Now are you telling us that hikers out finding and studying a site that they find is a good thing?
He also said there are sites all over the place. For example I don't know if you know this since you are not currently working at the FS, but they recently found a really cool arch site about 200 yards from a housing community.
Jenniifer was called into the site and Ranger O'Neil had to go out because this was the real deal. OK so we have a site 200 yards from peoples private homes, what are they going to do with it? I personally could care less, I am certainly not going to check it out even though I know were it is.
All I am interested in is seeing that someone takes care of our trail inventory (other than me because I don't show remorse) and riding with my friends. By the way there were a ton of Flagsters out today with the same goal as me, and the weather and trail conditions were perfect.
Good news about Anaconda coming up:thumbsup:
Here's a simple summary of the Finch-generated Sedrama:
Avoid riding with, talking to, and/or engaging with the narcissistic, insecure absolute freak known as John Finch aka Traildoc. He's a convicted forest abuser and he is incredibly butt-hurt about his actions (he only has himself to blame)
Dude has an incredible amount of issues so he should be ignored like that retarded puppy that wanders around the neighborhood barking at normal folks while scarfing down his own feces.
The real riders that I know in Sedona laugh at this antiquarian self-absorbed idiot so it perplexes me when other real riders lend this poor sap any credence.
I liked the talk Travis made that night. I got the impression that part of the role of the land manager is to preserve work for future Archeologists. The good stuff is the really old stuff. Back when there were mammoths and saber-toothed cats. Atalitals and digging sticks. Even 8 track tapes. And people too. There are just a hand full of old found objects, and no 12,000 year old bones that I'm aware of in the Verde Valley. Oh, and rock art too, almost forgot that. So today, as I was riding along, minding my own beeswax, I had a thought that I might of rode over and broke somebody's digging stick. Who knows? So what is acceptable remorse in my case? It would be pretty cool to know that these things exist. I don't need to dig them up and give them to next of kin. Just the thought that it is there, intact is reason enough to take it seriously. But I have some growing up to do, I like riding in so many places...
I'm sure that some people believe deeply that that is not acceptable. Its similar to the early 20th century. What happened to all those Passenger Pigeons?
Some people on this forum should follow this guy's example for a few reasons.
Originally Posted by Chalkpaw
Originally Posted by testing1.2.3.
What is great about this forum is that everyone, even you can have their own opinion. You my friend are probably 100% correct. Can you do me a favor and take my place doing the shuttles for the upcoming Sedona Festival and also guiding the rides? When you take over that spot let me know and I will take my name off the list.
Are you trust worthy enough to leave a bunch of that artifact stuff that has already been studied at your house? The US government is just throwing money down the toilet with that warehouse rent. When it could be better spent on scholarships for those native American youth that want a chance to get an education or job skill training, so they can live the native America dream.
123, I know you have no answer to these difficult questions, so I won't hold my breath.
77Ranger what is your real dream (besides anything to do with me and the FS)?
John Finch, you either cannot understand simple sentences or your personality disorder drives you to respond regardless of the facts.
Originally Posted by traildoc
Very few people (nobody?) cares about your alleged shuttles and the fact that normal folks ignore your pathetic cries for help.
Once again you and your ancient spouse are just like the nasty old retired folks on the condo association homeowners committee.
Too much time on your hands, not enough brains to deal with normal folks, and a self inflicted persecution complexes that enable you to vainly feel more important about your pathetic selves than is rational.
LOL! Nailed it
Originally Posted by testing1.2.3.
Originally Posted by SSdirt29
You have to love a guy who hides behind his avatar. Come on 123, let us know who you are so we can all appreciate who you are personally. Your strong in you convictions so step up to the MTBR plate and give us your name. Man-Up as Cycle 64 or Phillbo would say.
Hi John Finch,
Originally Posted by traildoc
My real name should have nothing to do with the abject idiocy that you have inflicted upon this forum and Sedona in general.
Your personality disorders are there for any normal person to see.
Since you are so troubled by my succinct, rational, and honest commentary, I will gift you with my with my real name. I'm not hiding behind an avatar. I'm just pointing out your self-aggrandizing idiocy which has infected these forums for many years.
Hi John Finch, my name is Pete Fagerlin and I'm the same guy who has been laughing at your abject idiocy for many years.
I'm not here to give you a virtual hand job (no matter how hard you try) but to the contrary, I'm here, like so many other folks, to point out how sad, dysfunctional and incredibly naive you are.
What's your next move you silly old twat?
Originally Posted by m77ranger
You are TOTALLY correct on that one. If we had more CP's we could sit back and wait for the fun to proceed. He steps up to do projects I would never consider doing. He has helped with the Gunsmoke re-route. I think he is working on the backside of Highline. That has always been a challenging project, I could have never figured, that could ever have been built.
He also stepped up and wanted to help out with the Gunslinger re-route project. Then he stepped up and helped make the steep right turn on Cow Pies a little more rideable. 77 have you cleaned that section yet? I gave him a suggestion on how to make it more rideable for rockman and I but I don't think he discussed it with the B Team because if I suggested it, that certainly wouldn't work.
Now he is working with Person X to figure out a new re-route off Mescal over to Canyon of Fools. The route over to Fools has worked fine the last 15 teen years, but it is time for a sustainable re-route. What I don't get is why would anyone want to ride over to Canyon of Fools, that trail sucks. Who the heck ever came up with that trail, Person X?
This great mountain bike trail thing going on in Sedona is getting out of hand, what is the poor Sierra Club group going to think? We aren't even considered primary users of trails how can we get a stupid trail like that adopted? What is so good about it anyway????????
I think I have a better idea, why not just go running our mouths off and sell out everyone on the internet? Yeah, that would be a cool thing to do right? Who's a punk?
Originally Posted by traildoc
Oh, I forgot another project he completed in record time and he needs to be given credit on THE TEA CUP REROUTE PROJECT. CP went in against all odds and stood up for what he thought was right in doing that project. The FS told him it was a waste of time and energy, he thought differently. He stood his ground and explained he didn't care how long the project would take, his goal was to make the Tea Cup trail more friendly to the advanced masses who use that trail. The FS was persistent and their representative was adamant that the re-route was not necessary even though it was impossible for the 97%'ers to ride the section being re-routed.
Originally Posted by raisingarizona
Instead of putting his tail between his legs and taking his tools home CP should his ground (after Person X had given up and left) and still persisted to explain the merits of the new re-route.
Finally the FS supervisor could see he was dealing with a highly persistent trail builder who was willing to put it all on the line. This was no ***** foot who was going to give up easily he was making a lot of since, but the FS is a lot smarter than the public and he was the trail supervisor and he was in charge.
He told CP, let's let the CREC trail supervisor make the decision. CP being very tactful, said OK I can live with that. The FS supervisor said the CREC supervisor would be on the job in 45 minutes. The FS supervisor told his 11 man crew to relax and lay down for a rest. CP knew the CREC supervisor would fall in line because he had a well thought out plan and only a fool would not be able to understand CP could make a great re-route. So, rather than wait for the CREC supervisor CP started gathering building material to start the project.
While he busted his but the CREC eleven man crew sat on their butts hoping their supervisor would sh!t can the project, so they could continue resting under the trees while he worked his butt off on this worthy volunteer project.
After about 45 minutes the CREC supervisor showed-up. He was a tall very fit looking individual with heavy duty work boots and a very tan face with a strong handshake and leather like hands.
CP stood his ground and showed the CREC supervisor his well thought our plan. Unlike the FS supervisor he said the project looked doable but it was going to be a ball buster and was CP up for the work necessary to make it rideable. CP looked the supervisor in the eye and told him sir I can do it, I don't care how long it will take. This trail needs to be rideable by the advanced masses and my goal in life is to make that happen on this trail no matter what it takes.
The CREC supervisor looked at his soft wimpy crew and said OK guys looks like we got a job to do. The crew was in shock, you have to be kidding? The CREC sup said let's get to work guys.
At this point CP went into high gear and started bringing in rock to build walls for the outside edge of the trail. He decided to divide the project in half to make it fair for the 11 CREC crew plus the two supervisors.
While CP worked bringing in more material while the CREC crew did a new strategy which was to tear the hillside apart and uncover huge boulders. It was like they were excavating a huge pithouse with no regard to the environment. CP looked at what the crew was doing and thought WHF, what are they doing?
He had never seen trail construction like that, but what did he know he was just a lowly public volunteer trying to make Tea Cup rideable by the masses. He kept his noise to the ground and continued to work his butt off.
Aftter several hours of work the CREC crew ran out of gas. They had completely torn the side of the hill apart and they were totally exhausted. CP looked over and thought are these guys going to leave this job site looking like this? Well that's what they did they packed up their fancy tools and the two supervisors left the site with smiles on their faces.
CP thought maybe these guys tore the hillside apart so he could never complete the project? Being the determined individual he is it just made him more motivated to make the trail rideable for the advanced masses. He worked his butt off several hours more while the CREC crew stopped off at Burger King for chocolate shakes and 99 cent whoppers.
After finally finishing his half of the trail he couldn't believe what the rest of the trail would take to complete. The project looked over whelming, but he wouldn't give u,p that wasn't his nature, he had always met challenges and tried his best to succeed.
So he hid his tools and picked up his pack and headed home for some needed rest. The next day he got up and decided he had other projects to deal with. The CREC crew had left him with a mess, but he was determined to succeed.
The next day he brought his wheel barrow and went to work. He took the torn out boulders and made another rock wall out of them. To stabilize the wall he filled in behind with dirt and rock he moved in with his trusty wheel barrow. He worked his butt off again and with dogged determination he completed the project.
I believe his efforts to complete this project were way beyond what 99.9% of the MTBR viewrs would have done to get this project done. Most would have put their tails between their legs when the FS supervisor said the project was way too much work and wasn't necessary.
If you go ride the Tea Cup trail you should try out the old alignment to see if the new re-route was a worthy project for CP., I certainly think it was, but that might make some think it was a waste of time. Oh, one more thing it really wasn't CP who stood his ground to get that worthy project done it was me. CP stood by and was pretty silent waiting to see if we would get the OK. It would be interesting to hear his side of what happen out there on that project. Who were the good guys and who were the guys who didn't think the project worthy.
This is a video of the actual project: https://vimeo.com/home/myvideos
So are you going to step up and take over at the Sedona Festival or are you just another talker who is too scared to identify who you are. We can all put a person down and hide behind the Avatar. Man up and tell us who you are. Obviously you have viewers on your side and I have ones on my side. Let's see if you are man enough to identify your self.
Originally Posted by testing1.2.3.
The put downs are nice for your fan club, but without showing us who you are I could just make up a new MTBR name and make the same statements about you. Take over for me at the Sedona Festival and I certainly will have more respect for you.
You remind me of Gemocher alias Acrophobe, etc, he was also a TD hater and spewed the same venom. It will be interesting if you are related to him.
You typed a lot since I last checked in td and by skimming it I gather its not worth my time to actually read it.
Originally Posted by m77ranger
We are lucky to have a rider like yourself on the MTBR forum. How many times do we get the insights from a person who has 45 generations of ancestors to glean information from?
After some of us went to the RTCA meeting the other night we were wondering if the tribal member who Travis meets with could actually come to the next Trail Planning meeting to give us his insights how the antiquities program is working for the tribe.
Is he happy that the white man has dug up all the tribal artifacts to be able to research how his ancestors progressed over the last 2000 years. How one village raided another another village and took their processions, or is none of that true, and all the tribes coexisted peacefully without any conflict? You must know a lot of the history since you know you go back 45 generations.
I never met my moms dad and I have no clue about my great grandads or grandmothers and know absolutely nothing about them, I wonder if that is why I am passionate about mountain biking trails? They must have been trail builders, don't you think? Maybe they were all farmers who loved to dig in the dirt to plant their crops. Crops was my miner in college, so that must be it.
How about all the storage of those treasured artifacts, how does the tribal representative feel about the warehousing of all those precious artifacts? Do they want any of those artifacts back? I would think if the white man stole his land that at least the tribes would want their ancestors processions back after some white man archeologist put his hands all over it examining it and doing a number of tests on it to determine when it was made and what it was made out of an all the cool stuff you figure out when you examine an artifact.
What do you think of the idea of getting the tribal leader to a future meeting to discuss what he really feels about the FS archeological program? How about the Sightings part that Travis pointed out in his presentation where Travis indicated the tribe was concerned about Sightings. Would the tribal representative give us some insight as to his concerns about Sightings. To be honest that was the first time I had ever heard about Sightings being a concern, so I am interested in that aspect of archeology aren't you?
You must have some understanding about those concerns maybe you could share them with us. I tried to get a better understanding after the meeting, but to be honest I wasn't sure exactly what Travis was getting at. Certainly it really wasn't explained so I totally understood it. You see Person X came over to the discussion and kept asking what I was asking about with this red glow in his face.
You use to work for Jen so you probably know Travis pretty well, maybe you could give him a call and ask him to share that part of his presentation with you and then you could explain it to me and anyone else who might be interested in the Sightings subject, and how it relates to the Sedona Trails Planning process.
The facilitator, Cate, seems to want us to be able to ask questions that relate to the planning process, but they seem to run out of time to answer all of them. It sure would be nice if we could have an online question forum after the meeting.