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What Does SIGHTINGS Have to Do With An Archeological Presentation???

6K views 90 replies 18 participants last post by  traildoc 
#1 · (Edited)
I notice that some of the viewer’s tonight were at the latest RTCA meeting on Thursday night. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there a section in Travis's archeology presentation that referred to SIGHTINGS or views or something like that? Wasn't there also a very scenic picture of Cathedral Rock in the background and maybe that picture was taken from somewhere close to the Highline trail?

Didn't Travis say he communicates with the tribes regularly and they are concerned and he is concerned that they are concerned because he takes his job very seriously
Can anyone explain why you have a picture of Cathedral under the topic of Sightings in a presentation on archeology?

I look forward to the notes on that presentation it was very interesting, I personally learned a lot. One thing I learned is that Travis said that there are artifacts everywhere in Sedona. He even is concerned that they are in places close to Sedona he has never been to. He has a ton of paper work to do and meeting with the tribe takes up most of his time. When he does meet with the tribe it seems like there concerned pretty regularly.

The next thing I learned is that many native American dwellings have fallen down and are now under the ground a couple inches or so. In the old days the archeologists would dig up a dwelling and find a bunch of important stuff and study it then they would take the artifacts and put them in storage with a bunch of other artifacts. Now they have tons of artifacts in warehouses all over the place and they have to pay storage fees FOREVER.

Consequently, what they do now for the most part (I could be wrong on this part). They leave the site alone and they let it degrade naturally for however long it takes for it to degrade. But if for some reason they get the funding in the future they will head out with a crew of archeologists and dig up more stuff so they can see what 77 Rangers relatives were up to 45 generations ago. I don’t even know what my relatives were up to two generations ago, and it causes me to do a lot of MTBR postings to document my past for future generations to study me.

OK some of the time people go out and build trails close to an archeological site and they do a crummy job of construction and it causes the underground site downstream, that no one knew about to get washed away, so that no one could study those artifacts and see if they were possibly related to 77Ranger. That would be very helpful for him to know and the rest of us would benefit from that knowledge. If all the artifacts that were lost due to the erosion could be found they would have to be studied then stored forever.

It seemed like Travis thinks there is a HUGE cost to storing artifacts, and that digging up archeological sites concerns the tribes because they are concerned that there will be a bad things happen to the site, and the artifacts destined to the warehouse I know I must have had some really great relatives that I know nothing about. It concerns me, that someone might steal some pots and pans that my relatives used to cook their food.

OK I get all that concern, but now that the FS doesn’t have to much more space to store stuff why don’t they take it back to the tribe and give it back to them so they can use the artifacts or they can have it closer to where they live, so they can visit it easier? What they could do is keep the really cool stuff in the warehouse that isn’t broken and take all the not so important broken stuff to where the tribes live. The delivery people could pretend there isn't any real non broken cool stuff back at the warehouse.

When Travis said that now they just leave the stuff buried so it will degrade over the next million years I get the picture that we have enough artifacts in warehouses to last us a long time and it’s a better monetary policy to leave it buried so hopefully looters can’t find it and take it home to store it for free.

Did anyone see the Neanderthal documentary last week on NOVA, that was cool? Does anyone know if there are documentaries like the Neanderthal documentary on all the Sedona artifacts in those warehouses to watch so a simple person like me would get a better understanding why we are storing all that stuff?

Since I now know I am part Neanderthal, I feel much better about why I enjoy meat. It must be an ancestral thing. Ranger 77 are you concerned when you ride in Sedona now that you know there are artifacts all over the place here and you are riding over them constantly? And if you go out to the House Mountain area there could be a ton of stuff that no one knows about out there.

I don’t really think the FS wants to know about it either because then they would have to study it and then store it, but Travis has way too much paper work to really study the stuff these days., so leave it buried for the next generation of archeologists that may have a bigger budget to be able to study and store more stuff. The direction the US budget is going that seems impossible there will ever be the funding for much more storing of artifacts, let alone study it. If you can’t store the stuff after studying it or you can’t study it because you have no budget then I am sorry Travis you are going to have to enjoy doing paperwork.

I wonder if the study of the Human Genome will ever trump Archeology and that actually Travis’s job will someday be replaced with something like that, that doesn’t take a lot of storage? I am curious what the US pays for artifact storage each year? You wonder if the native Americans would rather have the knuckle heads in DC bury all the artifacts that are in the warehouses now then sell the warehouses and take the money and spend it on scholarships for their young generations of native americans to learn their history, so when guys like Ranger 77 die at least they will know their history, so they won’t be like me totally clueless about my relatives.

Look at the negative affect it has had on me.

To be continued when we get the notes or sooner if anyone responds.
 

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#10 ·
Here's a simple summary of the Finch-generated Sedrama:

Avoid riding with, talking to, and/or engaging with the narcissistic, insecure absolute freak known as John Finch aka Traildoc. He's a convicted forest abuser and he is incredibly butt-hurt about his actions (he only has himself to blame)

Dude has an incredible amount of issues so he should be ignored like that retarded puppy that wanders around the neighborhood barking at normal folks while scarfing down his own feces.

The real riders that I know in Sedona laugh at this antiquarian self-absorbed idiot so it perplexes me when other real riders lend this poor sap any credence.
 
#13 ·
123:

What is great about this forum is that everyone, even you can have their own opinion. You my friend are probably 100% correct. Can you do me a favor and take my place doing the shuttles for the upcoming Sedona Festival and also guiding the rides? When you take over that spot let me know and I will take my name off the list.

Are you trust worthy enough to leave a bunch of that artifact stuff that has already been studied at your house? The US government is just throwing money down the toilet with that warehouse rent. When it could be better spent on scholarships for those native American youth that want a chance to get an education or job skill training, so they can live the native America dream.

123, I know you have no answer to these difficult questions, so I won't hold my breath.

77Ranger what is your real dream (besides anything to do with me and the FS)?
 
#2 ·
The management plan is to preserve artifacts in situ and avoid those areas if at all possible. They only do remediation if a site is in jeopardy. This is just an opinion but most archeologists employed by the FS, BLM or National Parks are primarily focused on monitoring and mitigation. Most of them don't do research but the materials are then available to the researchers who use whatever's been excavated to further the understanding of Native American history.

While it might seem like many of these sites are trivial or just some broken pottery to the mis-informed, the FS has not choice in the matter. It's Federal Law.
 
#3 ·
Is There Hoarding Going On???????

The management plan is to preserve artifacts in situ and avoid those areas if at all possible. They only do remediation if a site is in jeopardy. This is just an opinion but most archeologists employed by the FS, BLM or National Parks are primarily focused on monitoring and mitigation. Most of them don't do research but the materials are then available to the researchers who use whatever's been excavated to further the understanding of Native American history.

While it might seem like many of these sites are trivial or just some broken pottery to the mis-informed, the FS has not choice in the matter. It's Federal Law.
rockman:

Are any of the artifacts in storage studied out? If so why not return them to the tribe they are associated with, so you can make room for artifacts that haven't been studied .Then the tribe could decide what to do with them. They must be worth something to a collector and the tribe might want to sell them at a high end action or give them to the elders in their tribe to be passed down to their grand children.

What do you think 77Ranger? Your ancestors go back 45 generations would you take some of those nice studied out pieces and distribute them to your family members? Do you know any of those tribe members Travis meets with that you could ask them if they want any of the already studied stuff?

It seems like there could possibly be some hoarding going on, that needs to be managed a lot better. Is there any collecting of stuff going on at your place of residence that might be better managed?

I know my 92 year old mom was a hoarder and I suffer from that disease to a certain degree. I have a lot of bike stuff that is hard to let go to someone who might use it.

Do you think there is any of that going on? Maybe they could give some of it to the students who graduate in archeology, they certainly would appreciate its value more than anyone else, and if someone wanted it back later to study it again the archeology student could give it back.

Something must be able to be done to open up some more storage space for artifacts that still need to be studied? Do they have a lot of people ready to study the artifacts for free or is there some kind of study charge that the taxpayers have to pay for? Would a guy like Travis want to volunteer to study those artifacts on his day off as a volunteer? Kind of like Person X does his volunteer work for the FS?
 
#4 ·
Hmm, how do I feel about this? I'm fine riding over a random pottery shard every now and then. I obviously think it's worth protecting the arch sites and the human history that's preserved in the area. In the grand scheme of things preserving the human record is more important than the recreation of a small fraction of the population. As far as the forest service giving my family, I love my family but a bad thing happened to us a little while back and were kind of a mess right now. I know that the federal government has its flaws but I trust the fs with that stuff more than I trust the tribe. I love mountain biking but it's not the most important thing in the world.
 
#11 ·
I liked the talk Travis made that night. I got the impression that part of the role of the land manager is to preserve work for future Archeologists. The good stuff is the really old stuff. Back when there were mammoths and saber-toothed cats. Atalitals and digging sticks. Even 8 track tapes. And people too. There are just a hand full of old found objects, and no 12,000 year old bones that I'm aware of in the Verde Valley. Oh, and rock art too, almost forgot that. So today, as I was riding along, minding my own beeswax, I had a thought that I might of rode over and broke somebody's digging stick. Who knows? So what is acceptable remorse in my case? It would be pretty cool to know that these things exist. I don't need to dig them up and give them to next of kin. Just the thought that it is there, intact is reason enough to take it seriously. But I have some growing up to do, I like riding in so many places...
I'm sure that some people believe deeply that that is not acceptable. Its similar to the early 20th century. What happened to all those Passenger Pigeons?
 
#25 · (Edited)
77:

We are lucky to have a rider like yourself on the MTBR forum. How many times do we get the insights from a person who has 45 generations of ancestors to glean information from?

After some of us went to the RTCA meeting the other night we were wondering if the tribal member who Travis meets with could actually come to the next Trail Planning meeting to give us his insights how the antiquities program is working for the tribe.

Is he happy that the white man has dug up all the tribal artifacts to be able to research how his ancestors progressed over the last 2000 years. How one village raided another another village and took their processions, or is none of that true, and all the tribes coexisted peacefully without any conflict? You must know a lot of the history since you know you go back 45 generations.

I never met my moms dad and I have no clue about my great grandads or grandmothers and know absolutely nothing about them, I wonder if that is why I am passionate about mountain biking trails? They must have been trail builders, don't you think? Maybe they were all farmers who loved to dig in the dirt to plant their crops. Crops was my miner in college, so that must be it.

How about all the storage of those treasured artifacts, how does the tribal representative feel about the warehousing of all those precious artifacts? Do they want any of those artifacts back? I would think if the white man stole his land that at least the tribes would want their ancestors processions back after some white man archeologist put his hands all over it examining it and doing a number of tests on it to determine when it was made and what it was made out of an all the cool stuff you figure out when you examine an artifact.

What do you think of the idea of getting the tribal leader to a future meeting to discuss what he really feels about the FS archeological program? How about the Sightings part that Travis pointed out in his presentation where Travis indicated the tribe was concerned about Sightings. Would the tribal representative give us some insight as to his concerns about Sightings. To be honest that was the first time I had ever heard about Sightings being a concern, so I am interested in that aspect of archeology aren't you?

You must have some understanding about those concerns maybe you could share them with us. I tried to get a better understanding after the meeting, but to be honest I wasn't sure exactly what Travis was getting at. Certainly it really wasn't explained so I totally understood it. You see Person X came over to the discussion and kept asking what I was asking about with this red glow in his face.

You use to work for Jen so you probably know Travis pretty well, maybe you could give him a call and ask him to share that part of his presentation with you and then you could explain it to me and anyone else who might be interested in the Sightings subject, and how it relates to the Sedona Trails Planning process.

The facilitator, Cate, seems to want us to be able to ask questions that relate to the planning process, but they seem to run out of time to answer all of them. It sure would be nice if we could have an online question forum after the meeting.
 
#29 ·
If you want me to post about genetics I can do that all day because I know about that stuff. If you want me to post about the relationship between the FS, local tribes, and user groups I already gave my opinion. Right now I feel like I need training to deal with the mentally ill to post anything of use.
 
#30 · (Edited)
77:

We are just trying to find out what Sightings have to do with the archeological part of the Trails Planning process? Travis put the item in his presentation and I don't get why it was in there. The local Sedona mountain bike community that I have hung out with the last 13 years who have dealt with the FS for those 13 years and more have had similar questions, but never got clear answers either.

Like this question. Dear Mr. or Mrs. Forest Service person you say you have a special designation for the Casner Canyon Area, something about studying AZ Cypress Trees. It seems this study area has been kept secret to you and us until the recent adoption of Hangover. Why have you not been doing the very important study on the AZ Cypress trees in that area and since you learned you have this study area are you now going to do this important study?

What has happened here is that some renegade trail builders (Persons X,X & X) who knew nothing about such study area went out and built the most unbelievable trail right through the middle of the AZ Cypress forest in that area and then guys like you and ra went out and got your panties wet riding it.

The hypocrisy about building trails then the yahoos who get to ride them is off the charts. This is all about the history of Sedona mountain biking and how it came about.

So get this some riders are CONCERNED about how this unbelievable trail is going to hold up, so they go out and put in water diverters and other trail features to make the trail more sustainable. What is that about? Don't they know they are in a STUDY AREA?

Everytime I ride the trail with my buddies I see some new sustainability feature being added to help the trail hold up to the masses of crazies riding that trail and you are one of those crazies who is clueless about all the work someone is doing to keep that trail in good shape. Those guys or gals should be given credit, but I don't think they want it, right?

They know they are doing God's work, but they certainly don't want Ranger O'Neill or Jen (as you say) knowing about it. This is all about the process that everyone goes though to try and get to a stable period. You and I have come a long way, but we still have a little further to go.

Now call up Travis and find out what his concerns are about the Sightings, and when you call in ask Jen when they are going to start this very important AZ Cypress study that they forgot about around 1997 or so.

As a member of the local mountain bike community we feel the the Casner Study area was the Forest Services way of getting a Wilderness type area that they could restrict access or development. I am sure they never could believe mountain bikers were going to want to ride their bikes out there, God forbid that could ever happen.

That place has so many Sighting opportunities, what would Travis and the tribal leaders think, would their concern level go off the Richter scale? Can you imagine Travis and the tribal representative hiking up that crazy trail and all of a sudden you and ra are flying down the steep ass slickrock waterfall. You have just barely squeezed by the difficult sketchy waterfall section yelling YAHOO. I would love a picture of that, and the concern on their faces?

Come on man up as Paul B would say and find out the answers. Did you watch that NOVA program on the Neanderthal mixing with the human race, that was pretty amazing do you understand that whole thing? I felt pretty educated after that program.
 
#35 · (Edited)
OK, I got that.

As you have heard by now the FS is proposing the the closure of a number of really fun mountain bike trails that you and I have enjoyed over the last years. One of those trails has a bunch of cool sightings and travels through a heavy inhospital vegetative area that I certainly wouldn't want to live in.

The FS says it has sustainability issues much less than other recently adopted user-built trails or other system trails, but it does have issues so any issue is a deal breaker unless it is one of Person X's trails, right?

So the other issue is the Sightings and artifact issue. In our last meeting Travis had a chart of areas surrounding Sedona that he and the tribal leaders are concerned about having artifacts in them that they haven't searched for yet. These are called areas of CONCERN.

It just happens this fun trail is routed though an area of concern as shown on the attached picture. These areas have not been investigated by the FS for artifacts but since Travis has said artifacts are everywhere in Sedona they must be in this same area and under 99.9% of the houses and roads in Sedona.

Anyway the other day we went on a ride on this great trail before it is officially closed for all of the above perceived issues. While on the ride I noticed an extraordinary amount of recent hiker tracks. When we exited the trial onto a beautiful saddle with great Sightings, we met up with the owners of those hiking tracks: Lon, Lee and Howard. Howard is 86, Lee is 80 and Lon is 65. I doubt I will make it to 86, but if I do I want to hike that great trail when I am that age.

OK we stop and chat and I always ask are you locals or from somewhere else? They said they were Flagstaff. I then asked how did you find out about this hike? They said Richard Mangum's hike book called Sedona Hikes.

Wow you are kidding this hike is in that book?Well not really but the trail we are standing on in the picture certainly is. Now, I am flabbergasted this area of interest is in the Sedona Hike book. How can it be, that the author thought this was such a cool area that he put it in his book. And since it is such an area of FS CONCERN why hasn't Travis and Justin gone out on their precious weekend's and searched it for archeological stuff?

Well I thought I would give the Honorable Richad Mangum a call and ask him about this great hike he put in his book. He said that yes the trail up to the site of the picture is actually a road. That road must be over 50 years old and yes he thinks the people who drove up their parked their vehicles and hiked up to the ruin on top of the Pyramid formation.

He said the walls of the ruin are somewhat intact,but that the surrounding area was dug up and that any artifact of any significance is probably long gone. Who knows certainly 77Ranger and Travis might be able to figure that one out, but I would think their is a good chance nothing of any significance is going to be discovered there to help 77 find out anything more about his 45 generations of family members.

Another thing the author said was that he did not think the ruin on top of the formation was a continual living residence, he thought there was a good chance the location was for security purposes. Since the creek was so close the tribe that lived in that area probably lived close to the creek where their crops were located, but that they had enemy's that might attack them so they put in a location near to them that they could run to in time of potential threat.

OK what is this crazy rant about? I am concerned that there really aren't any artifacts around this site that would not allow a well thought trail system to exist. I also believe the sustainability of the trails surrounding that spot are more sustainable than Person X's trails and they should be added to the list of trails considered to be adoptable by the FS based on the trails they have recently adopted in the last three years.

Without MTBR's help in allowing me to write about this the FS might just ignore the valid questions I have stated and just go out and close the trail like they did with Slim Shady and Made In the Shade over four years ago. Now those two trails are considered two of the best trails to be recently adopted. The FS has spent tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of volunteer hours working on those trails why couldn't a lot less money and volunteer hours be spent on getting that trail adopted? Or better yet just leave it alone and forget it ever exists like Boogelicious?

TD
 

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#37 ·
John, I'm still not reading your overly long posts and neither is anyone else. I think its funny that you spent all that time and energy into something nobody cares about while I was shredding BA, Sickboy, Whiteline, Flying Cherokee, Llama, High Line, and pig tail.

Go get em tiger!
 
#38 ·
John, I'm still not reading your overly long posts and neither is anyone else. I think its funny that you spent all that time and energy into something nobody cares about while I was shredding BA, Sickboy, Whiteline, Flying Cherokee, Llama, High Line, and pig tail.

Go get em tiger!
Ryan, I am a simple person on a simple mission which to see that you enjoy your riding in Sedona. Obviously the riding is better here than it is in Flagstaff. I hope I live long enough to ride that new DH trail you are going to build this spring.

Isn't it amazing that your friend Jen still lets you ride those first three user built trails you just listed. I have to give you a hand for going out there riding those really cool 3%'er trails.

When we get to the trail part of the RTCA Trail Planning Process a couple months from now, I will certainly bring up those three trails to see what Jen's position is on those fun trails. Are there any others you want me to bring up.

If we ever get to the point of no more cross country travel in Sedona we are all going to be depressed. For now it's game on so have fun:thumbsup:
 
#39 ·
I guess I've always missed this point...if there is cool old stuff to look at or know about I want to know about it instead of have it hidden...BTW the only Indians that I have ridden with are the Yazzis and NOD and it seems that these younger generations would rather play in the woods then preserve old stuff that everyone is afraid to uncover and look at and educate us about...It could be me...but isn't the FS supposed to utilize the land for the many...not the few or the dead??? And to make it seem that we US Gov't cares after we have stolen all the land and then tried to mine the land we gave the Indians and then we fight in court for years to ruin the sli resort with pipes and pupu water is simply insanity...
 
#40 ·
SGC:

Indians what are Indians there are native Americans and there is 77Ranger he is the super duper native American that is a very skilled mountain biker? Thank God we have Ranger to get us all those answers the FS doesn't want to respond to. At least you get something back from him, it's not like asking Justin a question. Where it goes into a black hole and stays there forever. We all love you Justin you just need to be a little bit more forthcoming with my mentally challenged questions.

TD
 
#47 · (Edited)
Ranger, can you please explain how putting the pipes and pupu snow on the sacred mtn is Ok and fighting over and over in court to do this and somehow putting a trail near some artifact that no one but some archeologist knows about is not....This is simply beyond my comprehension...also in Sedona if the FS wants to put a parking lot in at lets say chimney rock...they hide the fact that it is full of shards and artifacts, but when a trail goes through a lesser type of artifact area that it is the end of the world and cause to close all user built trails...btw everyone...pardon my fopa...Native Americans...not Indians...Indians are in Cleveland and play baseball or in Washington DC and play football
 
#72 ·
Hahahaha, funny thread, you have all fallen into TDs silk web again, TD congrats in being a master-baiter, once again you have not disappointed, this is why i always love a TD thread, lots of action.

TD does the groundwork in his first post that will enable the thread to lead right into his hands lol, im all over the classic TD modus operandi, love your work TD :)
 
#86 · (Edited)
freak:

Thank you for providing Travis's presentation and the notes from the last meeting. After the meeting you, Patrick Kell and I went up to review my concern about Sightings. I said to Travis he had shown a picture of Cathedral (see picture) from the Highline trail. You said it wasn't from Highline it was from higher up the mountain.

Anyway Travis seemed to know what I was talking about and you and Patrick didn't seem to understand my concern about what the part in Travi's presentation about "Viewsheds" was about. I asked Travis to bring up his presentation so I could show you guys what I was talking about, so I could get it right and he chose not to do that. If he had done that I would have called it Sightings.in my MTR post I would have called it Senic Viewshed.

As you remember he brought up the Bell Rock formation parking area as another example of a scenic Viewshed. I remember what he said about that spot and why the tribal representative was concerned about it. Do you remember what Travis said?

During Travis's presentation when he got to the Viewsheds part he said he was concerned that when he meets with the tribal representative the representative has concerns about Viewsheds. To be honest I still am not clear on what the concern is about Viewsheds and why it was put in his presentation.

If you review the meeting notes you will see someone left a comment on their table commending Travis for trying to keep people off scenic viewsheds. That person had exactly the opposite reaction that I did. Also from the notes left on the table you get a feel for how some people who didn't get to express their feelings felt about the subject matter present at the meeting.
OK after reviewing the notes and the questions that some of us asked at the meeting I note that neither question I asked about the erosion of Schnebly Hill Rd. and dumping of dirt on the rode by the Pink Jeep dump truck was recorded by Cate. Also I don't see my question to the SAR person about why maintenance of trails has to do with people getting lost. You remember he asked me if I had been on the Hot Loop trail or Jacks Canyon. I told him I had been on Jack's two years ago, and had no problem navigating the over grown trail. If you look at the FS handbook, I believe over grown is just fine for a wilderness trail.
Anyway, I believe better signage is the most important thing in keeping people from getting lost. But, if you read the notes left on the table you get the idea that not everyone want's signage. They want a more wilderness experience. Since the FS has been reluctant to sign trails in the past like the top of Doe Mesa, do you think they are influenced by the less signage comment in the table response?
Also it seems like some like people feel the hikers need to get "educated" so they don't get lost. Can you please share with us how much money that is going to cost and how many of the 600,000 visitors are going to show-up for class. Is the sign on Hot Loop effective, does anyone get lost there since the sign is up? If it is effective I guess it should be at every intersection, but I doubt that is going to happen, if people are still getting lost on that trail.

OK, in reviewing the notes I don't see the question that Ian asked at the end of the meeting. Do you remember that question? Can you please direct me to his question in the summary of the meeting? I think it was an important one don't you?
I want to thank-you for providing this information and look forward to your answers. Sorry I didn't call Scenic Viewsheds by their correct term. I knew it had something to do with those great views so many of us enjoy and I hope to enjoy in the future on other new or adopted trails.
 

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#87 ·
OK, here are the other parts of the notes I referred to in my prior post. Obviously I am choosing parts of the meeting notes that I believe point out concerns I have about the notes not including all meeting attendees comments or questions that could affect the final planning process for the mountain biking community and the visiting hikers who love the mountain biking user built trails that may be adopted in the future.

Can someone tell me where the social trails are that are "above the stream". I know there is the Templeton trail, the Buddha Beach trail, Huckaby trail, and Allen's Bend trail that run along Oak Creek, but they are system trails. Is Janie talking about the Red Rock Crossing trail and all the braids off of it?
 

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