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  1. #1
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    Tubeless Un-Seating Really Bad Accident Tonight



    Really messed up my shoulder tonight.. hit my head too, but my helmet saved me... or at least I think it did, I still remember all that took place today...

    I was going around a gentle turn in my usual slow pace and my front tire suddenly came un-seated... lost a lot of air pressure suddenly...

    my bike went out from underneath me and I landed on the ground shoulder first....

    I can move my arm and I don't see any swelling or anything sticking out... but damn it hurts...

    xrays tomorrow...

  2. #2
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    My fingers are crossed. Hope your X-rays reveal nothing wrong.

  3. #3
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    That really stinks Brian. I hope its just some soreness and nothing broken.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", '06 Rocky Mtn Switch 26" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  4. #4
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    sorry it happened brother. Do you know how much pressure you were running at the time? Hope the healing Gods smile upon you!
    RAM speed: UP, UP, and away....!

  5. #5
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    Tubeless Un-Seating Really Bad Accident Tonight

    Hope you are OK, Brian. Good luck tomorrow.
    -boom

  6. #6
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    Thanks so much everyone... I can't believe my bad luck...

    Bighorn, I noticed my pressure was a bit low at the beginning of the ride by doing the squeeze test... I would estimate it was about 20 psi... I usually run it 25-30 psi... I was too lazy to break out the pump and put air in... still 20 psi should have been fine...

    Not sure what happened ?? I am really upset... I hate to blame the rim, but I don't think Ill be using this wheelset anymore...
    Front Wheel SYNCROS XR1.5 29" - Syncros

  7. #7
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    Very dangerous thing to happen...under the right (wrong) conditions....

    The front end of the bike isn't anything to mess with. Make sure you figure out WHY it happened.

    Was it ghetto tubeless?

  8. #8
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    Ouch, sorry to hear it brother. I was wondering about ghetto set up as well. Did you have any pads on? I had a front end failure as well riding Hidden Valley at Somo (though largely because of a technique failure) and the results could have been much worse without armor. Heal up!
    Keep the rubber side down

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBCanuck View Post
    Ouch, sorry to hear it brother. I was wondering about ghetto set up as well. Did you have any pads on? I had a front end failure as well riding Hidden Valley at Somo (though largely because of a technique failure) and the results could have been much worse without armor. Heal up!
    no armor, but I am a cross country rider... I mean I don't take many risks at all... this is just a really unfortunate equipment failure...

    btw I was riding Phoenix Sonoran Preserve South... on the south circle.. I mean really flat stuff...

  10. #10
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    It always makes me nervous because I think it was a failure like this might have been responsible for the rider losing his life riding the comp loop at mcdowels last year. Lots of ice and NSAID medications tonight my friend.
    Keep the rubber side down

  11. #11
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    Brian - we're running out of riders for our MALT Wednesday night rides. Get well soon, and meantime if you can't join us, please continue to send your beer.
    Be nice to nerds. Chances are you’ll end up working for one.


  12. #12
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    I had the opposite tonight, I hit a rock hard and tore the tread off (one little hole) and slowly flatted. I figured just throw a tube in and ride on but after 20+ minutes of struggling and cussing I couldn't break the bead on the tire. after calling for a ride home I had to use a bench vise to break both sides of the bead to get the tire off. I never had that happen before, I am now worried the tubeless seal is messed up, I won't find out till I spend money on a new tire. Damn! hope you're injury is minor and riding soon.
    "Not drinking is the Single Speed World Championships version of doping" -Jacquie Phelan

  13. #13
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    Tubeless Un-Seating Really Bad Accident Tonight

    Good luck, Brian. I had something similar happen last fall, and ended up with a separated shoulder, torn rotator cuff and torn biceps tendon...took an MRI to diagnose all that after the X-ray only showed the separation.


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  14. #14
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    Dang Brian, hope it's nothing serious. I'm always checking my tire pressures, for this very reason. It helps that I don't like the feel of riding on lower pressures too. Keep us posted.
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  15. #15
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    I quit messing with tubeless after something similar. Lower pressures, slight leak, bing! Tubes just work too well.

  16. #16
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    I see the rim you were using was tubeless ready. What exact tire were you using?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  17. #17
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    That's scary, its the kind of thing I always feared when I ran ghetto tubeless. I hope the injuries aren't serious, the bruised ego recovers fast.

  18. #18
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    Tubeless is fine

    Flows + Kenda/Maxxis + gas wrap tape for ~7 years, one front bead broken by a protruding sitck.

    Your chain can snap crossing the road and kill you, too. It's called a risk.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtbAZ44 View Post
    Thanks so much everyone... I can't believe my bad luck...

    Bighorn, I noticed my pressure was a bit low at the beginning of the ride by doing the squeeze test... I would estimate it was about 20 psi... I usually run it 25-30 psi... I was too lazy to break out the pump and put air in... still 20 psi should have been fine...

    Not sure what happened ?? I am really upset...
    Here is your problem. The "squeeze test" is wildly unreliable. This unfortunate accident is the sad result. I'm not trying to bash you or the like.
    Chalk it up to a tough lesson learned, something that wil hopefully never happen again.
    Hopefully you'll be OK after Xrays today, and back on the bike soon.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GR1822 View Post
    Here is your problem. The "squeeze test" is wildly unreliable. This unfortunate accident is the sad result. I'm not trying to bash you or the like.
    Chalk it up to a tough lesson learned, something that wil hopefully never happen again.
    Hopefully you'll be OK after Xrays today, and back on the bike soon.
    I thought the blow out risk with too high of a pressure... is it a risk at too low also ? If anything my tire pressure was too low...

  21. #21
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    ^^^ the truth - squeeze test can maybe tell between 40 psi and 20 psi - but I had 16 and 27 that felt pretty much the same.

    You have to measure it, also sometime a difference of 2-3 psi affects my handling.

  22. #22
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    What concerns me is you say it occured on a gental turn at a slow speed. Still curious if you were using a tubeless ready tire or not.

    One of my more recent rides out at Hawes resulted in a max speed of 26.5 mph with an average speed of 11.3. Im by no means fast but I like to pin it at the highest level of what Im capable of and if this is happeneing on a gental slow turn, that worries me.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtbAZ44 View Post
    I thought the blow out risk with too high of a pressure... is it a risk at too low also ? If anything my tire pressure was too low...
    it's better to run on a bit higher side than lower, especially in the front wheel - put in enough for good grip to rolling resistance ratio, I usually try not go below 25 and I weigh 160 - I could probably go lower but I got burped out before when I was under 20.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtbAZ44 View Post
    I thought the blow out risk with too high of a pressure... is it a risk at too low also ? If anything my tire pressure was too low...
    Too low of pressure = last night. If you don't have enough psi, the tire bead will want to separate from the rim on corners or largish rocks. It's better IMHO to be too high than too low. Too high will just make your tire 'bounce' over a rock instead of conforming to it, too low a pressure and you'll get burps and the feeling of a side wall folding during cornering.
    I'm a big fat fatty, and if I run anything less than 30 psi on my 29er rear tire, I get tons of burps and tubeless goo seepage around my bead even on a fairly tame trail.
    Like I said, chalk it up to experience.

  25. #25
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    After something like that I would seriously look at Stan's wheels... supposedly much more reliable for tubeless set up

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtbAZ44 View Post
    Bighorn, I noticed my pressure was a bit low at the beginning of the ride by doing the squeeze test... ]
    I just saw this. If actually "feel" it being too low then it's REALLY LOW.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    After something like that I would seriously look at Stan's wheels... supposedly much more reliable for tubeless set up
    I have a spare Stans I can use... I can swap this wheel with the Stans and throw a tube in this wheel to put on my backup bike...

    I didn't think DT Swiss wheels were all that bad

    But you are correct about Stan's reputation...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GR1822 View Post
    Too low of pressure = last night. If you don't have enough psi, the tire bead will want to separate from the rim on corners or largish rocks. It's better IMHO to be too high than too low. Too high will just make your tire 'bounce' over a rock instead of conforming to it, too low a pressure and you'll get burps and the feeling of a side wall folding during cornering.
    I'm a big fat fatty, and if I run anything less than 30 psi on my 29er rear tire, I get tons of burps and tubeless goo seepage around my bead even on a fairly tame trail.
    Like I said, chalk it up to experience.
    I agree.. its a hard lesson to learn... literaly

  29. #29
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    UPDATE.

    xrays are negative... no breaks... doc says its likely ligament/rotator cuff damage which will not require surgery and heal on its own.. take a long time

    I dropped off my wheel at Xhale, they are going to look at it and put on a different tire (at my request)... Make sure all is well... Guy at xhale however said it was most likely low air pressure...

  30. #30
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    So glad you are okay Brian, and that there are no breaks. Wishing you the speediest recovery.
    Bob
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  31. #31
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    Tubeless Un-Seating Really Bad Accident Tonight

    Having been in exactly the same boat, take it easy on the shoulder for two weeks. If it's getting better, great; if not, you will need an MRI to see what's going on in there. If the rotator cuff is, indeed torn to any extent, it will NOT heal on it's own....that's a fact (look it up). If a partial tear, you can either "live with it" (it may be bearable), or you can have surgery to fix it. If it's a full-thickness tear (which I had), the only option is surgery. Hopefully, it's not the rotator cuff...


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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Having been in exactly the same boat, take it easy on the shoulder for two weeks. If it's getting better, great; if not, you will need an MRI to see what's going on in there. If the rotator cuff is, indeed torn to any extent, it will NOT heal on it's own....that's a fact (look it up). If a partial tear, you can either "live with it" (it may be bearable), or you can have surgery to fix it. If it's a full-thickness tear (which I had), the only option is surgery. Hopefully, it's not the rotator cuff...


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    I should have been more clear on my earlier message. I tend to be lazy when I write.. Doc said to give time to heal (just like you say) and if its not healing on its own, to do an MRI... So he said for sure there is likely some ligament damage, and possibly some damage to the rotator cuff...

    Bottom line is if it heals on its own, great if not, well... possibly surgery

  33. #33
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    A tire can 'burp' at any pressure given the right cicumstances. It more likely had something to do with the tire / rim interface.

    FWIW I weigh 190 and run the Ardent 2.4 tubeless on flows at 18 psi and have never had it burp. I've run multiple tires at pressures around 20 psi up front with zero issues for many years.

    To the OP - I hope the shoulder heals fast and there are no lingering problems.
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    you're lucky enough.

  34. #34
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    Stans inside of tubes for me. I haven't had a flat in 6 months. I run about 20 PSI.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtbAZ44 View Post
    UPDATE.

    xrays are negative... no breaks... doc says its likely ligament/rotator cuff damage which will not require surgery and heal on its own.. take a long time...
    Good to hear nothing is broken and no surgery at least for now. Fingers crossed on the 2 the next two weeks!
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", '06 Rocky Mtn Switch 26" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  36. #36
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    I'm glad you will be OK. A catastrophic tubeless failure is something I hope to never experience.

    I'm a believer that setting pressure with a gauge MUST be done before every ride on a tubeless setup. Some tires I've run (particularly nevegals) lose 2-3 psi every 24 hours. Not really a big deal for a 2-3 hour ride if the pressure is set properly before the ride, but pretty dangerous if you pick up your bike and go after letting it sit for a few days. With a new tubeless setup, I normally pay attention to what the tire is doing for the first few rides. Does it lose air during a ride (hopefully not)? Overnight? That way I can adjust as needed to maintain a minimum safe pressure.

    I think most with a tubeless setup are trying to balance comfort with risk so maintaining the tire pressure you've chosen is pretty important. Anything lower is theoretically more risky and anything higher is sort of missing out on the benefits of tubeless. I guess it just pays to be precise. I err on the side of caution and run ~2-3 psi higher than the numbers recommended by stans.

    I've also heard, and I'm not sure if this is true, that stans sometimes only seals a puncture once the pressure drops below a certain threshold (~15 psi). So, with some punctures you could lose ~10 psi of tire pressure before the leaks is eliminated. With the right circumstances, you might not notice that you sprung a leak & lost any air.

    I check pressures with a gauge before the ride, and often do a quick squeeze check once during a ride. I hope that will prevent a nasty crash someday.

  37. #37
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    WOW! I guess I've been living dangerously all these years😳
    If you're lucky enough to be in the mountains,
    you're lucky enough.

  38. #38
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    I run tubes and check pressures before each ride. 30 in front and 35 in the back on 2.25x26 nobby nics. I am 155lbs and this seems to work reasonable well, but I don't want to go any lower. On my road bike with tubes I can loose 20 psi in 36 hours. No leaks in the tubes, but the high pressure causes seeping. My front tire runs at 80 psi, but when I check it before each ride it tends to be 60 psi.

    So I never trust my tires to say at my set pressure ever.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", '06 Rocky Mtn Switch 26" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  39. #39
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    I guess I was wrong, doctor scheduled an mri for next wednesday... shoulder is feeling a littler better today...

  40. #40
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    Do you have pain or weakness when you hold your affected arm outstretching in front of you and lift it palm-down from straight down up towards an over-head position? Shoulders are brutal and tend to seldom return to 100% normal after an initial injury, sometimes a fracture is preferable unfortunately...Soft tissue sucks.
    Keep the rubber side down

  41. #41
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    I've had 4 different opinions on my left cuff all have said surgery will not help , its a near full thickness partial tear. I'm out for a 5th opinion. Had plenty of time for it heal on its own initial injury was in July of 2008. I have to live with it for now.

    Hope you don't end up with any kind of tear, it sucks beyond belief.

  42. #42
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    Tubeless Un-Seating Really Bad Accident Tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by SlickWilly8019 View Post
    I've had 4 different opinions on my left cuff all have said surgery will not help , its a near full thickness partial tear. I'm out for a 5th opinion. Had plenty of time for it heal on its own initial injury was in July of 2008. I have to live with it for now.

    Hope you don't end up with any kind of tear, it sucks beyond belief.
    I had a 15 mm full-thickness tear (big tear), which surgery (and a screw) fixed. Now 5 months post-op, back on the bike and lifting in gym, with about 90-95% range of motion, and 75-85% strength...and progressing nicely. Surgery sure can help it, but that's what you have to do...it won't heal on it's own. Go see Freedberg at ASMC...he's the MAN!!


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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChampionSleeper View Post
    I've also heard, and I'm not sure if this is true, that stans sometimes only seals a puncture once the pressure drops below a certain threshold (~15 psi). So, with some punctures you could lose ~10 psi of tire pressure before the leaks is eliminated. With the right circumstances, you might not notice that you sprung a leak & lost any air.
    I've never heard this rumor and can't believe it. Your sealant, Stan's or other, works because air pressure forces the sealant out of the tire as the sealant sloshes around past it. When the tire is nearing the bottom of the rotation the sealant is all gathered around there and the air pressure forces the sealant into the hole and out.

    The lower the air pressure the LESS likely this is to happen because there's not pressure to push the sealant out. So, in actuality, as long as there's enough air pressure to wheeze out of the tire it'll have enough to push your sealant into the hole and seal it.

    I NEVER used a gauge on my MTB tires. I filled 'em until the pump stop making it harder. This I assumed to be ~40 psi which the tires are typically rated for. When I got my new bike I decided to try dropping the pressures to get better traction. Everyone's doing it, right? So, I used the squeeze test and based on what I KNEW was 40 psi I let air out until I though it was soft enough to provide extra contact patch without banging the rims around.

    After six to nine months of that I had to replace my wheels because what I thought was ~30 psi was actually closer to 18 psi. And the trails I ride and my style could in no way sustain that pressure while keeping the wheels intact.

    I've played around with pressures now and found that with my style and trails anything lower than about 28 psi is going to give me dented rims. YMMV.

  44. #44
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    Id think there is a happy medium for the psi for good sealing. In my opinion too much would force the sealant out before it can congeal. Unless you have the rubber chunks which would act like platelets. So low of psi I agree wont push enough sealant out to clog it.

    Regardless Id recommend everyone to go to Autozone and spend $10 on a digital presure gauge. Super cheap when you think of the cost of your tires let alone your bike, to ensure it runs properly. Tire pressure has a huge impact on handling and cornering in my opinion and a digital pressure gauge will allow you to consistanly dial it in accuratly. Start at 30 psi and drop 1 psi every ride until you find your sweet spot. Bring it with you one ride and vary your psi on the same ride. It think most would be surprised how much it affects things.

    Oh and the OP still hasnt said what tire he was running. Im curious if it was a tubeless ready or standard tire.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  45. #45
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    I think Mike's explanation of what happens with Stan's makes sense. However, I recently had a situation where there was indeed too much pressure. It happened on my road bike, on which I am running Stans alpha team wheels, and tubeless Hutchinson Intensive tires @ about 110 psi measured. Stuck a huge roofing nail in my tire. Instead of pulling it out, I left the nail in and rode home about 10 miles. So the Stans's system got me home. But when I finally pulled the nail out, there was so much pressure that the sealant didn't have time to seal the hole. It just kept getting blown out through the hole until pressure was so low that the bead unseated itself. Before I pulled out the nail, I checked the pressure and it was still about 100 psi. Basically, I think the Stans sealed around the nail very quickly and allowed only a small amount of air to escape. Obviously this isn't the same as a mountain bike tire. But this was such a big hole that I wonder whether the Stans would have sealed it, even in the pressure range Mike cites.

    Bob

    EDIT FWIW, I also run tubeless mtb 30 psi, no problems. But I'm conservative, CC-style rider.

    In all this discussion of tubeless, I forgot what started it all. I still hope Brian is doing okay with his shoulder.
    Last edited by Bituman; 05-16-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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  46. #46
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    My front tire always burps in the low 20's so I always pump them to 30. I never got along with the lower psi's that a lot of people like. Probably since when I was in tubes, I kept my tires at 40+ because I was so sick of pinch flats that 30 seems squishy to me! I do run ghetto on cheapy-ish rims though. Hope that injury clears up fast. Time of the bike is time not living!
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  47. #47
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    Feeling a bit better today....

    Tires were Maxxis Ignitors... They are not UST... I am going to stop using them.... These tires tend to stretch out with use in that they are very easy to take off/un-seat with time... I didn't think it would become dangerous... I guess I am pretty naive... I had xhale bikes inspect my rim and they said it looked great... I bought 2 Captain Controls and I hope I have better luck with them...

    Bottom line is to never go below 30 psi on rides... btw I weigh about 205...

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtbAZ44 View Post
    Feeling a bit better today....

    Tires were Maxxis Ignitors... They are not UST... I am going to stop using them.... These tires tend to stretch out with use in that they are very easy to take off/un-seat with time... I didn't think it would become dangerous... I guess I am pretty naive... I had xhale bikes inspect my rim and they said it looked great... I bought 2 Captain Controls and I hope I have better luck with them...

    Bottom line is to never go below 30 psi on rides... btw I weigh about 205...

    I think it really depends on the particular tire. Some fit loose and other tight even within the same brand. Glad you are feeling better. I took a dive today myself. Crashing sure sucks more and more the older you get.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Crashing sure sucks more and more the older you get.
    I agree... I used to play rugby for god sakes... I took shoulder smashes in stride then...

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtbAZ44 View Post
    Feeling a bit better today....

    Tires were Maxxis Ignitors... They are not UST... I am going to stop using them.... These tires tend to stretch out with use in that they are very easy to take off/un-seat with time... I didn't think it would become dangerous... I guess I am pretty naive... I had xhale bikes inspect my rim and they said it looked great... I bought 2 Captain Controls and I hope I have better luck with them...

    Bottom line is to never go below 30 psi on rides... btw I weigh about 205...
    Go with UST tires, especially if you are going to run anything close to a low tire pressure. Also, if you are going to run wide tires make sure you are using a wide rim.

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