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  1. #1
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    Tubeless sealant drying out in Arizona - proposed solution.

    I just got my tubeless Stan conversion in a LBS and I love every minute of it. However I was told and from what I read here, the sealant dries out and needs to be replaced every 1-2 months in the summer. (I store my bike in the garage and it's a sauna) Moreover the coagulated latex needs to be removed or at least I would want to remove the junk from my wheel.... This created a huge inconvenience and got me thinking...

    What is in the Stan's sealant anyway?
    Propylene glycol - type of alcohol, solvent, antifreeze, humectant
    Latex - rubber
    Water -H20 - 30-40% of the solution ???

    The the boiling temp for propylene glycol is 370 F so major component most susceptible to evaporation must be the water. Thus if you replace the water component periodically you should be able to prolong the time before the sealant dries out and needs to be replaced.

    I don't what the evaporation rate would be, but my garage gets up to 120 degrees. My LBS recommended monthly replacements. I believe that the volume of the sealant replaced is about 2 to 3 oz. So assuming that water is about third of that, then 1 oz of water is lost every month.

    What I am thinking about doing, is adding 1/2 ounce of water every 2 weeks to my tire. The easiest way would be partially deflate the tire. Squirt the water in to my compressor tubing and re-inflate the tire. I know I would eventually would need to add Stan's sealant, but I would like to prolong that period to more like 3 months in the summer and 6 in the winter.

    Am I missing something here? I would love to hear some comments. I am not a chemist, I had basic chemistry and biochem in college but I am far from being Walter White.

  2. #2
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    I have always presumed that Stans is a natural rubber latex emulsion although I suppose it's possible it's synthetic. Either way I'm guessing about 60-65% solids by weight. Do a google search on Firestone Hartex, for example. I don't think you can just add water after the rubber has coagulated in the tire. At that point, it won't re-emulsify without mechanical grinding and addition of some type of emulsifying agent. I think there is a small residue of ammonia left in the latex from when it's processed at the source. I have been told the ammonia is in there as a stabilizer, but others have told me it's a biocide since the latex is an organic material and would otherwise attract critters. No Walter White here either. But I buy about half a million pounds of latex every year in my job. (No not a condom maker.) FWIW, it's not that much trouble to just add Stans by using one of their syringes and removable valve cores. I'm now running tubeless using Stans on three mtb's and I just converted my road bike to tubeless. I clean out my tires about once a year and really, most people don't even do that because they wear out tires before it's necessary.

    Bob
    "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." - Neil Kendall

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    I just got my tubeless Stan conversion in a LBS and I love every minute of it. However I was told and from what I read here, the sealant dries out and needs to be replaced every 1-2 months in the summer. (I store my bike in the garage and it's a sauna) Moreover the coagulated latex needs to be removed or at least I would want to remove the junk from my wheel.... This created a huge inconvenience and got me thinking...

    What is in the Stan's sealant anyway?
    Propylene glycol - type of alcohol, solvent, antifreeze, humectant
    Latex - rubber
    Water -H20 - 30-40% of the solution ???

    The the boiling temp for propylene glycol is 370 F so major component most susceptible to evaporation must be the water. Thus if you replace the water component periodically you should be able to prolong the time before the sealant dries out and needs to be replaced.

    I don't what the evaporation rate would be, but my garage gets up to 120 degrees. My LBS recommended monthly replacements. I believe that the volume of the sealant replaced is about 2 to 3 oz. So assuming that water is about third of that, then 1 oz of water is lost every month.

    What I am thinking about doing, is adding 1/2 ounce of water every 2 weeks to my tire. The easiest way would be partially deflate the tire. Squirt the water in to my compressor tubing and re-inflate the tire. I know I would eventually would need to add Stan's sealant, but I would like to prolong that period to more like 3 months in the summer and 6 in the winter.

    Am I missing something here? I would love to hear some comments. I am not a chemist, I had basic chemistry and biochem in college but I am far from being Walter White.
    You are definitely missing something. I think the weight is 80% liquid. Once the sealant turns to a solid you can't convert it to a liquid without using a solvent like Goof-Off. Buy some 100% latex caulk in a tube and dilute it with water to the same consistency of the original Stan's, put 2.8 oz. in your dried out tire and ride on.

    Wait until the tire starts to loose air before adding additional fluid.

  4. #4
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    actually the whole concept behind a sauna is to maintain an enclosed area near 100% humidity..

    bring the bike inside to the laundry room or something,, it's not like it's all covered in mud. and it's an added level of assurance for you that it will still be there in the morning.

  5. #5
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    Why don't you just add more stans? It seems to me that the huge inconvenience is coming up with a complex solution when the easiest is to just add more stans....it's really not hard.

    When my tire goes dry...it goes real dry. The residue in the tire just coats the inside...but after adding stans 2-3 times...I'm ready for a new tire anyways.

    K.I.S.S.

  6. #6
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    OP- I think you're over thinking things. Just keep adding Stans via your valve. If you're concerned about the cost of replacement, switch to a homebrew sealant. I think it cost me $20 to make 3/4 gallon.

  7. #7
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    I don't have the removable cores so i just pop the bead and pour some in ... I'll install new cores when I change tires next time.

  8. #8
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    I'm not sure the removable cores are all that much of an advantage. I just added some stans fluid to my tires through the valve stem as a precaution. On the front it went well, but on the rear when I let the air out the bead on the tire popped loose -- almost like negative pressure sucked the tire off the bead. It all went back together fine, but I didn't expect that to happen.

    ben

  9. #9
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    The point is to add the water periodically BEFORE the sealant dries out.

    I did some research and found that propylene glycol is cheaply available in a cattle feed stores (don't ask).

    I could mix both 50-50 and squirt via my compressor every 1-2 weeks and always have fresh sealant inside.

    I know I would still have to add Stan's at some point. The cost is not an issue.

    And Yes I am way overthinking this

  10. #10
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    Oh, and here is the MSDS on Stan's sealant.

    notubes.com/literature/NoTubes_msds_9_17_2010

    sorry not allowed to post links yet

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    The point is to add the water periodically BEFORE the sealant dries out.

    I did some research and found that propylene glycol is cheaply available in a cattle feed stores (don't ask).

    I could mix both 50-50 and squirt via my compressor every 1-2 weeks and always have fresh sealant inside.

    I know I would still have to add Stan's at some point. The cost is not an issue.

    And Yes I am way overthinking this
    Met:

    I could be wrong again, but I think propylene glycol is food grade anti freeze.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    Why don't you just add more stans? It seems to me that the huge inconvenience is coming up with a complex solution when we've already been working on one for months or years
    The whole thread starts here.

    It really starts to get juicy here when an actual chemist chimes in here.

    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    I did some research and found that propylene glycol is cheaply available in a cattle feed stores (don't ask).
    Fog Juice is what we are using.

  13. #13
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    I am currently using Stans out of a conveinence issue, but when I made my homebrew, that stuff never dried out-ever. I hang my bikes in the garage too so I know what you mean by drying out. I have just been adding Stans until the bottle is empty and I make more homebrew.

  14. #14
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    I thought the only reason why anyone would use antifreeze in their home brew was because they rode their bike in cold temps. Does it get cold in Phoenix this time of year? If antifreeze acts as a solvent to keep the brew in a viscous state how do the holes get plugged?

  15. #15
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    50/50 Slime/Stan's

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Call_me_Tom View Post
    50/50 Slime/Stan's
    Sounds expensive, does it work? What is Slime made out of that putting it in Stan's makes it work better than Stan's? Have you told Slime that Slime Pro and Slime works better than Slime Pro?

    TD

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Sounds expensive, does it work? What is Slime made out of that putting it in Stan's makes it work better than Stan's? Have you told Slime that Slime Pro and Slime works better than Slime Pro?

    TD
    It works, the Slime helps from keeping the Stan's from drying out. Google it & you'll find plenty of info in regards to this mix. Oh, just buy the automotive Slime from any Walmart or automotive store, it's cheaper then the LBS Slime & does the same thing.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Call_me_Tom View Post
    It works, the Slime helps from keeping the Stan's from drying out. Google it & you'll find plenty of info in regards to this mix. Oh, just buy the automotive Slime from any Walmart or automotive store, it's cheaper then the LBS Slime & does the same thing.
    Do you have any idea why the Walmart slime does the same thing as the LBS slime? Did you do some kind of test? I want to get this right since I only use water currently.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Do you have any idea why the Walmart slime does the same thing as the LBS slime? Did you do some kind of test? I want to get this right since I only use water currently.
    I just did online research on MTBR & other sites. From what I've read the automotive Slime is the same as the LBS Slime but cheaper; marketing I believe. The only tests I've done is use the mix, I ride in some pretty thorny areas, Palm Springs, Phoenix & El Paso & it hasn't let me down. I'm also not having to refill my tires every few weeks, the Slime is good for 2 years, mixed with Stan's it should be good for your area for 8-12 months.

  20. #20
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    Actually, let me back peddle a little bit, I haven't ridden the Phoenix are since June & I know it gets hotter there around this time so for the sake of being safe I'll say that mix should be good in your area for at least 4 months. Come the cooler months you'll be able to go longer.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Do you have any idea why the Walmart slime does the same thing as the LBS slime? Did you do some kind of test? I want to get this right since I only use water currently.
    Slime is Slime. The bike & automotive Slime are very similar if not identical. Your local Autozone or Checker/Schucks/Kragen/O'Reilly, which is where I got mine since you would have to pay me to go into a Walmart, will also carry an ATV Slime which supposedly has larger chunks of rubber in it. I've not compared the two recipes but I used the ATV Slime when I used it. Anywhere is likely gonna be cheaper than your LBS but if I bought it I'd certainly be throwing a little bone my LBS's way for it. Or REI since I'll get a little back from my dividends

  22. #22
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    I see that most of Slime is propylene glycol, anyone know what else is in it?

    It's true though, I don't recall the slime ever drying out - I can see it's usefullness in keeping Stan sealant wet.

    I am not sure if would help or impede the hole plugging ability.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    The whole thread starts here.

    It really starts to get juicy here when an actual chemist chimes in here.


    Fog Juice is what we are using.
    Read this thread on DIY tubeless. I'm in GA with similar heat and have been tubeless for 6-8 months on the same batch of sealant. Every month I'll pull the wheels and shake the tire around to make sure that there's still liquid and it's been good every time.

  24. #24
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    lol@ similar heat in GA...

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by longhairmike View Post
    lol@ similar heat in GA...
    I guess maybe I should have said heat index. You guys have the dry heat, we have a few degrees cooler but with all the humidity you'll ever need to get swampass standing still on a street corner.

    FWIW I was pegging 115F air temps over pavement riding home, generally Atlanta heat was averaging over 100 for most of July.

  26. #26
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    the low humidity is what specifically increases the evaporation rate inside tubes.
    heat index is only a term representing perceived-effect on human skin. it has no impact on inanimate materials

    if you go out in the morning with a wet head in high humidity /dewpoint,, you'll still have a wet head at the end of the day cause the air is already saturated.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    I guess maybe I should have said heat index. You guys have the dry heat, we have a few degrees cooler but with all the humidity you'll ever need to get swampass standing still on a street corner.

    FWIW I was pegging 115F air temps over pavement riding home, generally Atlanta heat was averaging over 100 for most of July.
    Yeah, the humidity is the key, your tires are less apt to dry out.
    Some silver lining...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    Yeah, the humidity is the key, your tires are less apt to dry out.
    Some silver lining...
    Exactly, that is why I posted that caveat, in San Diego where I mostly ride we have 50% humidity or higher, in Az it's all dry heat so his Stan's will dry out faster. I usually run 4oz front & rear in the desert but only run 2oz in a high humidity area.

  29. #29
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    All right, I admit. Putting water via compressor turned out to be a bad idea. It's not as easy as I thought.
    Anyway, so I guess like everyone else said, just check the level and refill frequently. I rather NOT take the tire off, but I have a removable core and I can just check level and inject in to the tire.

    Anyone tried diluting the Stans sealant a bit with water in the summer when refilling. Makes me wonder if you just keep refilling with more of the sealant, the latex doesn't evaporate and keeps building up in the tire.

  30. #30
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    The propylene glycol is basically what engine coolant is made from. It has a lower evaporation point for some reason. I used some slime in my homebrew for the rubber chunks-and is probably why it doesn't evaporate as quick.

    When I need to add- I use my removable cores, and with a 50cc syringe and a little peice of fuel line to slip over the top to eliminate some of the mess.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstem View Post
    The propylene glycol is basically what newerengine coolant is made from. It has a lower evaporation point for some reason. I used some slime in my homebrew for the rubber chunks-and is probably why it doesn't evaporate as quick. .
    Fixed that for you. Make sure that you're using propylene glycol (red) and NOT ethylene glycol (green). Green antifreeze is really toxic and could harm some critters if you burp and spill sealant all over the trail, or if your tires end up weeping and a dog/cat decides to lick the sidewalls.

  32. #32
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    THE STORY: Ok so I went for a ride in the Sonoran Preserve this morning. A lot of exposed rock after the rain. I loose pressure in my back tire, there is a leak where the rim meets tire. I burn one Co2 cartridge. It looses pressure again. I burn another C02 cartridge, and again leaks... but at least doesn't completely go flat. So I decided very gently ride back home, keeping my butt off the seat and walk the bike over the rocky parts. Of course, my back underinflated wheel throws me to the side and I hit rock with my front wheel and loose pressure. Now I am desperately trying to make on two underinflated tires until my front wheel hits another rock and goes completely flat. Thankfully I was close to a side trail in to a nearby street where I called my wife to pick me up.

    BACKGROUND: I have the fast track tires on Vuleta xrp rims stans tubeless conversion done via LBS. I did squirt about 5-7cc of water in to each tires 7 days ago as an experiment to keep the sealant from drying out. I did ride just last night evening - same trail with no issues what-so-ever.
    I kept the back tire pressure low circa 25 psi - I weigh 165 lbs.

    ANALYSIS: So what the hell happened?

    1. 5-7 cc of water (1/4 oz) diluted the Stan's sealant enough to loosen the tire to rim seal.
    2. The tires and rims are not good fit for tubeless set up.
    3. Pressure was too low.
    4. Riding to the rivers of washed out rock - the tubeless set up had no chance.

    DISCUSSION: I switched to tubeless set up under impression that it would be more reliable. I often ride before work or before dusk. So either way I don't have to time to get stuck out on a trail - I will be late for work or stuck in the dark. I never had any major issues with my slime tubes other than slow leaks. Never had a pinch flat, I don't know even really know what it is.

    CONCLUSION and PLAN:
    1. I am taking my bike back to LBS for a consultation - re-asses tire-rim compatibility, etc. I will ask about adding slime to the mix.
    2. No more adding water - bad idea - sorry for even suggesting it - I hope no one else tried it.
    3. I will keep the pressure over 30 psi in each tire.
    4. Add a spare tube, extra Stan's sealant, core removes and a mini pump to my kit or more cartridges.
    5. IF my tires blow again - I am going back to the slime tubes. The tubeless is not worth the hassle. I was going to convert my wife's bike to tubeless but I will wait. Have to think about saving up for Stan's rims for a real reliable tubeless set up.

  33. #33
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    hey Metal-

    FWIW- I rode Sonoran yesterday afternoon. I run tubeless and had no issues. I am about 140 and run 24 psi in the front and about 20-22 in the rear. I also ride "light" and try to avoid slamming rocks and stuff when I can. I also always carry one or two tubes just in case with co2 and hand pump.

    I bet the added water diluted your stans and may have "washed" the bead area. Also when I mount my tires, I use my sealant as a lubricant between the bead and rim to help it seat AND act as a glue to hold them together. Not sure if it really works that way, but I do know the rim and tire are stuck together when I try to repair/replace tires.

    I would remove the stans/water in the tires currently, maybe try another tire for compatibility too. I have used Maxxis Larsen TT, Ignitors and Crossmarks without wire beads over many sizes and brands of rim-both UST and non over the years and have found that those are less prone to burping for me. I am getting ready to mix a batch of homebrew sealant, but if you want, you can bring over your ride with some stans and I can check out your setup. Also- not sure which shop you frequent, but the guys at Swiss on 43rd and Bell are really good at setting up tubeless. I also have two brand new Bontrage tubeless rim strips that may fit your rims. If not and they are set up "ghetto" you may just need a little more or less tape to help the tire/bead interface. Don't give up! Once you get the tubeless set up right, there is not a better handling, flat forgiving option out there.

    Sonoran was pretty awesome yesterday. Hard as a rock with a light sprinkle of granite on top made it kind of slick in some areas, but it was like racing supermoto. I actually lost grip in two fast turns and skidded off trail like a total rookie! Good times!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    THE STORY: Ok so I went for a ride in the Sonoran Preserve this morning. A lot of exposed rock after the rain. I loose pressure in my back tire, there is a leak where the rim meets tire. I burn one Co2 cartridge. It looses pressure again. I burn another C02 cartridge, and again leaks... but at least doesn't completely go flat. So I decided very gently ride back home, keeping my butt off the seat and walk the bike over the rocky parts. Of course, my back underinflated wheel throws me to the side and I hit rock with my front wheel and loose pressure. Now I am desperately trying to make on two underinflated tires until my front wheel hits another rock and goes completely flat. Thankfully I was close to a side trail in to a nearby street where I called my wife to pick me up.

    BACKGROUND: I have the fast track tires on Vuleta xrp rims stans tubeless conversion done via LBS. I did squirt about 5-7cc of water in to each tires 7 days ago as an experiment to keep the sealant from drying out. I did ride just last night evening - same trail with no issues what-so-ever.
    I kept the back tire pressure low circa 25 psi - I weigh 165 lbs.

    ANALYSIS: So what the hell happened?

    1. 5-7 cc of water (1/4 oz) diluted the Stan's sealant enough to loosen the tire to rim seal.
    2. The tires and rims are not good fit for tubeless set up.
    3. Pressure was too low.
    4. Riding to the rivers of washed out rock - the tubeless set up had no chance.

    DISCUSSION: I switched to tubeless set up under impression that it would be more reliable. I often ride before work or before dusk. So either way I don't have to time to get stuck out on a trail - I will be late for work or stuck in the dark. I never had any major issues with my slime tubes other than slow leaks. Never had a pinch flat, I don't know even really know what it is.

    CONCLUSION and PLAN:
    1. I am taking my bike back to LBS for a consultation - re-asses tire-rim compatibility, etc. I will ask about adding slime to the mix.
    2. No more adding water - bad idea - sorry for even suggesting it - I hope no one else tried it.
    3. I will keep the pressure over 30 psi in each tire.
    4. Add a spare tube, extra Stan's sealant, core removes and a mini pump to my kit or more cartridges.
    5. IF my tires blow again - I am going back to the slime tubes. The tubeless is not worth the hassle. I was going to convert my wife's bike to tubeless but I will wait. Have to think about saving up for Stan's rims for a real reliable tubeless set up.
    Don't overthink it...tubeless is the way to go. I resisted it for years, but went all-in about 4-5 years ago, and haven't looked back, DESPITE having various issues at various times due to various things...**** happens either way, and you'll be constantly replacing tubes.

    A. Sounds like too low PSI in back...At your weight, I'd run 26-28 in front, and 30-ish in back. I am 190 lbs, and run 28 front/32-34 rear, depending on the tire.
    B. Just use the Stan's...4 oz. in each tire.
    C. Tires and rims make a difference: some tires have weaker sidewalls, and are more prone to holes/tears/burps. Spesh FastTrack's are problematic for me, though I love them...I would recommend a different rear tire for the McD's...WTB Exiwolf's are pretty solid in back, albeit a bit heavier/slower-rolling. Some rims have a narrower profile, thus make the tire take more abuse, and more risk of burp or tear. For example, Stan's Arches create more tire issues than Flow's. Don't know about yours, but I'm sure they are narrower, thus more prone to issues. You want the most bombproof rims? Go with Flows...
    D. ABSOLUTELY CARRY A SPARE TUBE, PUMP AND CO2, AT LEAST! I also carry a 2 oz bottle of Stan's...the ones that come in most swag bags. On longer, epic rides, I carry two tubes...

    The McD's are my home trails, and remember that they are about the harshest around here on tires...any weaknesses in your setup WILL get exposed over time, and you'll be walking out.
    Ride more; post less...

  35. #35
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    diluting the sealant in your tire is like diluting the oxygen on the space shuttle.

  36. #36
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    I've read that using CO2 with tubeless goo is bad for the goo, Stans or homebrew. Makes it congeal quicker. If you have to use CO2, I'd make sure your valve isn't at the 6oclock position when airing up your tire.
    +1 for always carrying a spare tube and sidewall boot when riding tubeless.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstem View Post
    hey Metal-

    FWIW- I rode Sonoran yesterday afternoon. I run tubeless and had no issues. I am about 140 and run 24 psi in the front and about 20-22 in the rear. I also ride "light" and try to avoid slamming rocks and stuff when I can. I also always carry one or two tubes just in case with co2 and hand pump.

    I bet the added water diluted your stans and may have "washed" the bead area. Also when I mount my tires, I use my sealant as a lubricant between the bead and rim to help it seat AND act as a glue to hold them together. Not sure if it really works that way, but I do know the rim and tire are stuck together when I try to repair/replace tires.

    I would remove the stans/water in the tires currently, maybe try another tire for compatibility too. I have used Maxxis Larsen TT, Ignitors and Crossmarks without wire beads over many sizes and brands of rim-both UST and non over the years and have found that those are less prone to burping for me. I am getting ready to mix a batch of homebrew sealant, but if you want, you can bring over your ride with some stans and I can check out your setup. Also- not sure which shop you frequent, but the guys at Swiss on 43rd and Bell are really good at setting up tubeless. I also have two brand new Bontrage tubeless rim strips that may fit your rims. If not and they are set up "ghetto" you may just need a little more or less tape to help the tire/bead interface. Don't give up! Once you get the tubeless set up right, there is not a better handling, flat forgiving option out there.

    Sonoran was pretty awesome yesterday. Hard as a rock with a light sprinkle of granite on top made it kind of slick in some areas, but it was like racing supermoto. I actually lost grip in two fast turns and skidded off trail like a total rookie! Good times!
    I had it the tubeless conversion done at Exhale about two weeks ago. I considered to still be under their "warranty" so I am going to have them take a look at it.

    I passed two mtbikers going clockwise on the dixie loop yesterday around 630pm. Were you there?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    I had it the tubeless conversion done at Exhale about two weeks ago. I considered to still be under their "warranty" so I am going to have them take a look at it.
    Why would it still be under their warranty when you altered the tubeless sealant mixture?

    They are good enough guys, and I bet they will help you out, but you're taking advantage of them IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Don't overthink it...tubeless is the way to go. I resisted it for years, but went all-in about 4-5 years ago, and haven't looked back, DESPITE having various issues at various times due to various things...**** happens either way, and you'll be constantly replacing tubes.

    A. Sounds like too low PSI in back...At your weight, I'd run 26-28 in front, and 30-ish in back. I am 190 lbs, and run 28 front/32-34 rear, depending on the tire.
    B. Just use the Stan's...4 oz. in each tire.
    C. Tires and rims make a difference: some tires have weaker sidewalls, and are more prone to holes/tears/burps. Spesh FastTrack's are problematic for me, though I love them...I would recommend a different rear tire for the McD's...WTB Exiwolf's are pretty solid in back, albeit a bit heavier/slower-rolling. Some rims have a narrower profile, thus make the tire take more abuse, and more risk of burp or tear. For example, Stan's Arches create more tire issues than Flow's. Don't know about yours, but I'm sure they are narrower, thus more prone to issues. You want the most bombproof rims? Go with Flows...
    D. ABSOLUTELY CARRY A SPARE TUBE, PUMP AND CO2, AT LEAST! I also carry a 2 oz bottle of Stan's...the ones that come in most swag bags. On longer, epic rides, I carry two tubes...

    The McD's are my home trails, and remember that they are about the harshest around here on tires...any weaknesses in your setup WILL get exposed over time, and you'll be walking out.
    Thanks. No I am not giving up on the tubeless yet... especially cuz I blew $150 on tires and the kit + labor. It's just part of the learning curve I guess.

    So what do I do if my tire loses the seal/bond at the rim on the trail? Inject sealant and C02 I guess, right? Then you also need the core remover, right? I guess I could just put the tube in, but it's a pain in the ass on the trail.

    What's McD - McDowell mountain park trails? I think Sonoran preserve and Deem Hills are much worse, it's like a rock mine. I would gladly volunteer for the city to pick up the lose rock off the trail there.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GR1822 View Post
    Why would it still be under their warranty when you altered the tubeless sealant mixture?

    They are good enough guys, and I bet they will help you out, but you're taking advantage of them IMHO.
    Well if adding 5 cc of the water is the true cause of the air leak, then I guess it's not. We will see how honest they are or they going to blame the 5% dilution no matter what. I can spot BS from a mile away. They can charge me the their $7 for the refill, whatever.

    EDIT: Actually 95% sealant dilution, adding very roughly 5% equivalent of water - assuming they put in 3 oz of the sealant. Which they should for a 29 inch wheels.
    Last edited by metalaficionado; 08-23-2012 at 12:15 PM.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    Thanks. No I am not giving up on the tubeless yet... especially cuz I blew $150 on tires and the kit + labor. It's just part of the learning curve I guess.

    So what do I do if my tire loses the seal/bond at the rim on the trail? Inject sealant and C02 I guess, right? Then you also need the core remover, right? I guess I could just put the tube in, but it's a pain in the ass on the trail.

    What's McD - McDowell mountain park trails? I think Sonoran preserve and Deem Hills are much worse, it's like a rock mine. I would gladly volunteer for the city to pick up the lose rock off the trail there.
    Ah...I thought you meant the McDowell Sonoran Preserve, in N. Scottsdale...Lost Dog Wash, Quartz, Taliesin, Sunrise, Windgate, Bell, etc, etc. I'll bet rockier than Sonoran and Deems.

    To your question, you don't need a core remover...you can just crack the seal at one point, and use the 2 oz. Stan's bottle to squirt in some Stan's, then CO2 will fill it up. You don't lose the overall seal. I always try the following:
    1. Use your pump or CO2 to see if you can reinflate it, then spin the wheel to try and get the Stan's to seal it up.
    2. If you think it's a "not enough Stan's" issue, then put in some Stan's as noted above, and re-try #1.
    3. Pull the tubeless valve stem, and pop in a tube, and off you go. It is *usually* #3...unfortunately.

    Yep, it's a PITA, but better than a broken chain, broken chain ring, or blown rear hub...
    Ride more; post less...

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    I had it the tubeless conversion done at Exhale about two weeks ago. I considered to still be under their "warranty" so I am going to have them take a look at it.

    I passed two mtbikers going clockwise on the dixie loop yesterday around 630pm. Were you there?
    No- I was out there around 2pm. I think I was about the second or third guy out there after the rain based on tire tracks I saw. The lot was empty and I saw no one out there- not even any birds or anything! But coming back on DT and on the back side of D going CCW is where I did my off trail excursions. My rear tire is just too worn for those conditions, good thing those conditions aren't the usual!

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    Well if adding 5 cc of the water is the true cause of the air leak, then I guess it's not. We will see how honest they are or they going to blame the 5% dilution no matter what. I can spot BS from a mile away. They can charge me the their $7 for the refill, whatever.
    Bad math on my part..... Delete posr

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalaficionado View Post
    So what the hell happened?

    1. 5-7 cc of water (1/4 oz) diluted the Stan's sealant enough to loosen the tire to rim seal.
    I'd have a hard time believing that adding water to your mix is going to do anything to the latex that has already sealed your bead. Some of that stuff is hard to pull off. I doubt water will do anything to it once it's fully latexed.

    Now adding water to your sealant likely didn't do much but dilute your sealant. Possibly to the point of making it useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by cstem View Post
    I also always carry one or two tubes just in case with co2 and hand pump.
    Quote Originally Posted by GR1822 View Post
    I've read that using CO2 with tubeless goo is bad for the goo, Stans or homebrew. Makes it congeal quicker. If you have to use CO2, I'd make sure your valve isn't at the 6oclock position when airing up your tire.
    It does for sure. I've found it out myself. I carry CO2 but it's a last resort or for when I have to put a tube in.

  45. #45
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    CO2 is bad for the tire I guess, but if I put in a tube I use it, or if I am in a hurry and just lazy, I'll use it too.

    Funny thing happened the other night on T100. I got a pinhole leak and while sitting and talking with the guys I was with, found my tire almost all the way flat when it was time to roll. No sweat, quick blast with the CO2 and spin hole to bottom for sealant to do its work. NO GO> I just added sealant the other day, I know I have plenty and this little tiny pinhole should seal-aarrgh!

    Okay, I got a couple of tubes, I'll pop one in and get on with the ride. Try to pry off tire, very stiff and hard to get off bead-hmmm. Open bead and find-TUBE! I had loaned my bike out to a friend of family while gone for 7 weeks. He must of had a flat and put in a tube. Oh well I laughed, he replaced the tube anyway with a new one. Open up the new tube- schrader valve! My rim holes are presta only-double aaarrgh! Its a slime tube too! LUCKILY I found my other spare tube, popped that in and was on the way with a seriously overinflated tire (no tubes left and did not want to pinch flat with the Old and Slow tech crew!). Funny thing is, I ran 22psi in that rear tire (with tube) thinking it was tubeless for about 30 miles and did not flat once until that day. Wierd!

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    I'd have a hard time believing that adding water to your mix is going to do anything to the latex that has already sealed your bead. Some of that stuff is hard to pull off. I doubt water will do anything to it once it's fully latexed.

    Now adding water to your sealant likely didn't do much but dilute your sealant. Possibly to the point of making it useless?
    .

    The guys at exhale said it was probably underinflated, it tends to leak when new - my psi meter must be way off - I also had trouble with getting the presta adapter to work. Exhale were very helpful, they looked over, checked the seal, check for dents, added more sealant, resealed and so far so good. I did 22 miles in Sonoran preserve this morning and no problem what-so-ever. Now I wonder if my pressure was under 20s, I was told to keep over 25 and probably will hover around 30s.

    Thanks for all the input ! and shout out to Exhale, they were very helpful.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstem View Post
    CO2 is bad for the tire I guess, but if I put in a tube I use it, or if I am in a hurry and just lazy, I'll use it too.

    Funny thing happened the other night on T100. I got a pinhole leak and while sitting and talking with the guys I was with, found my tire almost all the way flat when it was time to roll. No sweat, quick blast with the CO2 and spin hole to bottom for sealant to do its work. NO GO> I just added sealant the other day, I know I have plenty and this little tiny pinhole should seal-aarrgh!

    Okay, I got a couple of tubes, I'll pop one in and get on with the ride. Try to pry off tire, very stiff and hard to get off bead-hmmm. Open bead and find-TUBE! I had loaned my bike out to a friend of family while gone for 7 weeks. He must of had a flat and put in a tube. Oh well I laughed, he replaced the tube anyway with a new one. Open up the new tube- schrader valve! My rim holes are presta only-double aaarrgh! Its a slime tube too! LUCKILY I found my other spare tube, popped that in and was on the way with a seriously overinflated tire (no tubes left and did not want to pinch flat with the Old and Slow tech crew!). Funny thing is, I ran 22psi in that rear tire (with tube) thinking it was tubeless for about 30 miles and did not flat once until that day. Wierd!
    So slime didn't stop the leak. Bad Slime !

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