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  1. #1
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    There is Potential Change Going On in the West Sedona Mountain Biking Scene

    As some of you know Mt. Bike Heaven has closed their operation and Rama is moving to the BIG island of Hawaii to greatly improve is living experience. As we all know life is hopefully a journey filled with new positive experiences and Rama is about to try out something new and hopefully more enjoyable than running a bike shop and going on somewhat the same old rides he has been doing for more than 20 years.

    By Rama leaving West Sedona there is a gap that needs to be filled and a bit of change is going on in the mountain biking scene. I have just heard bits and pieces and don't know for sure what is actually going to occur, but hopefully the changes will benefit Sedona mountain biking in general.

    One of the scenarios is that a local rider has obtained a guiding permit from the FS and he may partner up with another well liked local mountain biker, and they will rent the current Mt. Bike Heaven location where they will run a Sedona bike tour operation. I personally don't believe it's possible to do a bike tour and bike rental only operation, so they must also going to be doing some bike repair and sales also, but what do I know.

    The difficulty I see with the Sedona bike tour business is that the tour companies are only allowed to do tours on FS sanctioned trails and the tour company is limited by the FS to only do tours on certain FS trails. They are not allowed to take tours on all Sedona FS trails and they certainly can't take tourists on the more popular non-system trails, which are fairly close to the old Mt. Bike Heaven location.

    Hopefully they can take tourists on the somewhat new Aerie trail, but I know that currently Enchantment is not allowed to use Aerie and it is only 300 yards from their front gate. Even if they could use Aerie they would have to drive them out to Aerie because they certainly would not be able to use Snake, Lost Watch, Touron, Anaconda or Chuck Wagon to get out to Aerie, unless they get adopted and the tour permit amended.

    Having to drive people out to Aerie is an additional liability and expense that would require an additional cost to the tour company and therefore make it harder to be financially viable, but what do I know.

    Secondly, there has been some interest by Over the Edge bike shop guru, Troy, to start a new Over the Edge bike shop in West Sedona. OTE would probably be more of a traditional well managed bike shop that would hopefully capitalize on the growing world class mountain biking image Sedona has been developing over the last five years. Troy originally started in the mountain biking industry in Moab and from there moved to Frutia where he took a struggling little Colorado town and helped it become a world class mountain biking destination.

    This is where the excitement comes for a guy like me who has always been a whore in my promotion of Sedona mountain biking. If Over the Edge does come to West Sedona it will for sure also help with the promotion of mountain biking to a much larger mountain biking following. Over the Edge has the name and reputation for providing a great mountain biking experience, and Troy has the experience from a lot of hard work on how to run a successful mountain biking operation. He is to the mountain bike business as to what Herman Cain is to the pizza business. They both know how to run a financially successful business.

    It will be an interesting situation in these trying economic times if both of these two new businesses can make a go in West Sedona. They both have a dream of how their new businesses should be run. The new bike tour business is low on experience, but I am sure big on enthusiasm and the willingness to work hard at providing a great user experience. And Over the Edge has the broader experience of having been there and knowing how to actually make things happen.

    I am personally rooting for their financial success, which will in turn will mean Sedona is a little better known in the world of fun places to mountain bike, which has always been my goal. Hopefully the new owners will be eventually be making more than $250,000 annually, so they can become fat cats from their hard work to help pay down the country's debt. What a country .

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 07-07-2011 at 01:15 PM.

  2. #2
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    The timeline for opening a OTE in west Sedona is apparently this Fall. When I queried Quentin in Hurricane about it last month while doing the Goose/L. Creek thing, I mentioned that there was already an IBIS dealer in town. He said, no problem Troy told him the dude in Sedona sells em out of his garage. I thought that was pretty lame if that was indeed the case but I'm a supporter of the little guy and really like Fat Tire and the service Dave provides. Anyhow, no knock on Troy's business acumen but he sold OTE but still owns the franchise. Whomever buys the franchise will be the one running the show and not Troy. At least I think that's how it works. At least with McDonalds

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    I used to work for an outfitter in CA, mostly rafting but he also offered mountain biking. The only way to get most Americans to pay money to be guided is to offer a shuttle ride. And then the ride will have to be super easy Schnebly would work fine for that. Other then that I can't see anybody being able to have enough business to make a profit. I can't see experience riders paying money to ride trails that are all on the map. And as you point out there's lots of good stuff out there but none of it would be open to legit guiding. But I could see a Schnebly shuttle operation making a pretty good go of it.
    Singin' I love hike a bike!!!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    The timeline for opening a OTE in west Sedona is apparently this Fall. When I queried Quentin in Hurricane about it last month while doing the Goose/L. Creek thing, I mentioned that there was already an IBIS dealer in town. He said, no problem Troy told him the dude in Sedona sells em out of his garage. I thought that was pretty lame if that was indeed the case but I'm a supporter of the little guy and really like Fat Tire and the service Dave provides. Anyhow, no knock on Troy's business acumen but he sold OTE but still owns the franchise. Whomever buys the franchise will be the one running the show and not Troy. At least I think that's how it works. At least with McDonalds
    Rock:

    I totally agree with some of your response. Fat Tire has been a great addition to Sedona mountain biking no doubt. And I think Dave will always be the number one IBIS dealer and bike rental operation in Sedona. He is obsessed with the performance of the IBIS product and he communicates it's pluses better than 99% of the other retailers out there. He believes in IBS, and he has put together a nice fleet of rental bikes for interested users to check out.

    I think Dave is somewhat maxed out as to what he able to handle and still provide excellent service to his current clients and those that come to Sedona to rent his high end bikes from him. He is very inflexible when it comes to providing a good work product, so he is limited to so many hours in a day or week to provide that good work product. He is unwilling to cut corners, so it would be hard to get more production out of him with out him not allowing his customers to talk with him, and I don't see that happening.

    The old Sedona tour operator predicated Fat Tire would not survive the declining economy and their prediction has proved to be grossly incorrect. I assume as long as Dave wants to wrench on bikes and sell high end bikes he will make a living. He knows the service and products he sells better than his competition, so he will always be able to stay profitable, and as long as he is willing to talk, his customers like you will be willing to listen and drink some beers with him.

    Maybe he isn't interested in being a fat cat like Mitt Romney and just wants to be known as an honest hard working American (Canadian?) who gets to go riding his cool IBIS HD on some really beautiful trails with his loyal customers.

    TD

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    Hey TD. Good post. Thanks for sharing this info. Reading OTE's franchise page, they definitively list their West Sedona shop as opening sometime in 2011. So 2 shops in Cottonwood (if the newer Cottonwood shop is still going), 2 shops in VOC, and 2 shops potentially opening in West Sedona, plus Fat Tire! Wow! The Sedona and Verde Valley cycling scene is growing eh!

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    He believes in IBS

    TD
    Hopefully he'll get a new saddle and his IBS will calm down.

    In all seriousness, I think that a "chain" bike shop wont change things too much. Dave has his people that will look him up even if he is doing work out of his garage. I think the same goes for the guys at Bike and Bean. Both of these shops are small, independently local owned shops who have friends as their customers.

    I am not certain how a tour and rental ONLY shop would work here- it just doesn't seem to fit in West Sedona, or in any city. Look at how far GnarGnar goes to make a few bucks. Like you said, it would be very hard to get a good ride in AND stay on system trails. Also, like somebody else said, shuttles would be the most popular way to go which throws a wrench in the gears.

    Regardless, it's sad to see Rama moving to the Big I. I still look forward to seeing what ever change all of this will bring to Sedona's MTB community.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Hopefully he'll get a new saddle and his IBS will calm down.

    In all seriousness, I think that a "chain" bike shop wont change things too much. Dave has his people that will look him up even if he is doing work out of his garage. I think the same goes for the guys at Bike and Bean. Both of these shops are small, independently local owned shops who have friends as their customers.

    I am not certain how a tour and rental ONLY shop would work here- it just doesn't seem to fit in West Sedona, or in any city. Look at how far GnarGnar goes to make a few bucks. Like you said, it would be very hard to get a good ride in AND stay on system trails. Also, like somebody else said, shuttles would be the most popular way to go which throws a wrench in the gears.

    Regardless, it's sad to see Rama moving to the Big I. I still look forward to seeing what ever change all of this will bring to Sedona's MTB community.

    Mountain bike buddies seem to be doing quite well in SW Utah. http://www.mountainbikebuddies.com/index.html

    I could see a role for such an outfit in Sedona, especially for the beginner and intermediate type riders. Those who don't require the Triple H to make their day and just want to get out and ride a bike and not get lost.

    edit to add: even if it's on a system trail.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickbwolf View Post
    Hey TD. Good post. Thanks for sharing this info. Reading OTE's franchise page, they definitively list their West Sedona shop as opening sometime in 2011. So 2 shops in Cottonwood (if the newer Cottonwood shop is still going), 2 shops in VOC, and 2 shops potentially opening in West Sedona, plus Fat Tire! Wow! The Sedona and Verde Valley cycling scene is growing eh!
    mb:

    Thanks for your input. My wife tells me I may be off base about the two different shops in West Sedona. Part of my reason for doing this post is to see if the future owners might give their input as to what they have planned.

    The last time I talked with Troy, he indicated he thought OTE was a good fit for the Sedona scene and that being close to the Carroll Canyon, Dry Creek Road and Red Rock Loop Road trail systems was something he thought would work well for the shop.

    Obviously, the current Mt. Bike Heaven location fits that criteria, but the building is in need of a large makeover to fill the OTE current image for their type of operation. That being said the overhead at MBH is pretty attractive, and does having a low overhead trump having a nice building to maintain your upscale image.

    Therefore I have been assuming OTE would want to be in another location. The owner of the MBH building is a really nice landlord who I am sure is trying his best to work an attractive lease with any future business owner. Whether he wants to sink a lot of money into the makeover of the existing building remains to be seen, time will tell.

    That being said the guys who are going to open the tour business obviously are trying to get the best location and lease deal for their new business. My wife seems to think that both businesses may partner-up and share the same location. To me that sounds like a difficult scenario for reasons that I am not qualified to speculate on, at this time.

    I really don't know any of the future owners, so I am just guessing at this time. My hope is that both operations will be successful and if they can operate at one location that would certainly help with the cost of the rent each month.

    Not sure how the liability issue would be addressed for each separate entity since the liability exposures are somewhat different in a regular bike shop operation as compared to a mountain biking tour operation. The tour operation normally takes a specialty coverage, which normally would be excluded from a normal general liability policy of your typical bike shop.

    Minimum premiums on specialty coverage sometimes make it difficult for start up tour companies to obtain comprehensive coverage that some feel is required to protect the owner and especially employees (or independent contractors) from frivilous litigation due to an accident.


    TD

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Mountain bike buddies seem to be doing quite well in SW Utah. http://www.mountainbikebuddies.com/index.html

    I could see a role for such an outfit in Sedona, especially for the beginner and intermediate type riders. Those who don't require the Triple H to make their day and just want to get out and ride a bike and not get lost.

    edit to add: even if it's on a system trail.
    Rock:

    I checked out their website and they had this posted:

    Guide Service

    Our service does not include riding with you on the trail. However, we will get you to the trail head, provide detailed instructions, and everything you need. Then pick you up at the end of the trail. We can arrange for a guide service if you wish.

    Do you have any idea why they don't provide guide service?

    I understand Hermosa Tours is also going to do a four day bike tour in Sedona, and it will be interesting how that works for them.

    TD

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    As the stomach turns.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    The last time I talked with Troy, he indicated he thought OTE was a good fit for the Sedona scene and that being close to the Carroll Canyon, Dry Creek Road and Red Rock Loop Road trail systems was something he thought would work well for the shop.

    Obviously, the current Mt. Bike Heaven location fits that criteria, but the building is in need of a large makeover to fill the OTE current image for their type of operation. That being said the overhead at MBH is pretty attractive, and does having a low overhead trump having a nice building to maintain your upscale image.
    One big + for the MTBH location is that there are generations of tourists that may not remember the shop name, but remember its location. That being said, if the overhead is so much lower it would probably be worth it to make the building look nicer.

    Also, there are three big things to consider above and beyond overhead: Visibility from 89A, PARKING, and sign capability. It's hard to find a spot right on the highway where you can have a decent sized sign and enough parking without paying an arm and a leg. I've looked all over West Sedona and when it comes down to it there aren't many properties that fit that description.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

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    A high end shop with good exposure will do very well if managed properly.
    Hooking up with the hotels for free drop off and pick up would be nice.
    I have never had any luck finding mid to high end bike rentals in my travels.
    That would be nice to have Turners, Pivots etc to rent in Sedona.
    OTE has the name. Good luck
    Herman Cain is the man

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    I would give my left nut to have the opportunity to take over where Mountain Bike Heaven is leaving off. I will be interested to see OTE move into West Sedona. I am in full agreement they will do the best job to bring Sedona onto a bigger stage to become one of the biggest mountain bike destinations in the lower 48!

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Rock:

    I checked out their website and they had this posted:

    Guide Service

    Our service does not include riding with you on the trail. However, we will get you to the trail head, provide detailed instructions, and everything you need. Then pick you up at the end of the trail. We can arrange for a guide service if you wish.

    Do you have any idea why they don't provide guide service?

    TD
    Mt. Mike Buddies is a one-man operation. Mark does a great job, but if he's driving the shuttle van to pick you up at the other end, it would be hard for him to ride the trail with you. So he is willing to arrange guide service with partner vendors, so that you have a guide and a shuttle.

    Just part of a business model that works well for Mark. I highly recommend him if you want to hit some of the more outlying trails up in the St. George area. Prices are very reasonable and he provides excellent trail descriptions to get you through the ride.

    --thrash


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post

    The difficulty I see with the Sedona bike tour business is that the tour companies are only allowed to do tours on FS sanctioned trails and the tour company is limited by the FS to only do tours on certain FS trails.
    TD
    One thing these "tour guys" have going for them is that even the FS trails have some great biking. Most people would be thrilled coming here and riding standard FS trails. It's not like you can find something like our backyard in Michigan. We may be bored with it, but most tourists will flip their lids. It does, however, make connecting stuff a bit difficult but after going through the permit process it will seem easy.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Obviously, the current Mt. Bike Heaven location fits that criteria, but the building is in need of a large makeover to fill the OTE current image for their type of operation. That being said the overhead at MBH is pretty attractive, and does having a low overhead trump having a nice building to maintain your upscale image.

    Therefore I have been assuming OTE would want to be in another location. The owner of the MBH building is a really nice landlord who I am sure is trying his best to work an attractive lease with any future business owner. Whether he wants to sink a lot of money into the makeover of the existing building remains to be seen, time will tell.
    I was never in MBH, is their location any smaller inside then OTE Hurricane? That was just an old small house that they just about gutted to turn it into a shop then added the outside deck space. Fruita is a larger interior space but much of the flooring is pretty much unrestored 120 year old original wood. They don't seem to require an "upscale" store image for their upscale product line. So a fixer-up space seems right up their alley.

    No idea what Troy has in mind though, if this will be his operation or if he'll have a local owner, this will be his first OTE expansion since sellng the Fruita shop.

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    I don't know the political climate of the Sedona bike scene, but it seems to me that there is no one that has influenced the Sedona MTB surge of late (I mean the past 3 or so years) greater than Bike & Bean? I wonder what a westside B-n-B would do for Sedona and bike tours? Doc, you know them better than I, chime in. MBTH is a Sedona Icon, even tho it's been 15+ years since I've been in the shop, it will be missed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by going29AZ View Post
    I don't know the political climate of the Sedona bike scene, but it seems to me that there is no one that has influenced the Sedona MTB surge of late (I mean the past 3 or so years) greater than Bike & Bean? I wonder what a westside B-n-B would do for Sedona and bike tours? Doc, you know them better than I, chime in. MBTH is a Sedona Icon, even tho it's been 15+ years since I've been in the shop, it will be missed.
    29AZ:

    I agree that if you were to take the Bike & Bean out of the VOC and drop it in west Sedona, it would do great, but obviously for some reason Jimmy has decided to sit back and let others to take over the opprotunity in west Sedona.

    I did talk to him a little about doing a shop in west Sedona, and he didn't share his reason for not doing an expansion. I would have to speculate that running one shop along with the Aguave keeps him plenty busy. He like Absolute Bikes has a great location and probably doesn't want to assume the responcibility of managing an additional shop.

    I would think that the iffyness of the current economy has made most business owners somewhat more cautious these days. I would think the Bike & Bean like others may have experienced some slower than normal months that put up some yellow flags, but what do I know I am just an old volunteer trying to ride a couple days a week.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmitch2 View Post
    A high end shop with good exposure will do very well if managed properly.
    Hooking up with the hotels for free drop off and pick up would be nice.
    I have never had any luck finding mid to high end bike rentals in my travels.
    That would be nice to have Turners, Pivots etc to rent in Sedona.
    OTE has the name. Good luck
    Herman Cain is the man
    Absolute is a Pivot dealer and across the street, BnB is the local Turner dealer.Not sure what either shop has for high end rentals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by going29AZ View Post
    I don't know the political climate of the Sedona bike scene, but it seems to me that there is no one that has influenced the Sedona MTB surge of late (I mean the past 3 or so years) greater than Bike & Bean? I wonder what a westside B-n-B would do for Sedona and bike tours? Doc, you know them better than I, chime in. MBTH is a Sedona Icon, even tho it's been 15+ years since I've been in the shop, it will be missed.

    The original BnB was located in uptown Sedona but a collapsed roof and heavy water damage
    closed down the shop. Jimmy had plans to open a second shop just past the Schnebly Rd. turnoff that would stock a few road bikes and offer service and repair but it never happened. A downturn in the economy probably played a big part in the decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elrancho66 View Post
    The original BnB was located in uptown Sedona but a collapsed roof and heavy water damage
    closed down the shop. Jimmy had plans to open a second shop just past the Schnebly Rd. turnoff that would stock a few road bikes and offer service and repair but it never happened. A downturn in the economy probably played a big part in the decision.
    66:

    B & B actually had a presence in the complex that the Javelina Cantina is located. They shared the location with an electric scooter and car company. Originally they did road bike sales and rentals then they some mountain bike pick-up rental to help their customers in that area, so they didn't have to drive all the way to the VOC.

    The business suffered from all the construction delays on 179 in that area, and eventually Jimmy may have decided that road bike sales and rentals were not going work at that location, so they moved out.


    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    66:

    B & B actually had a presence in the complex that the Javelina Cantina is located. They shared the location with an electric scooter and car company. Originally they did road bike sales and rentals then they some mountain bike pick-up rental to help their customers in that area, so they didn't have to drive all the way to the VOC.

    The business suffered from all the construction delays on 179 in that area, and eventually Jimmy may have decided that road bike sales and rentals were not going work at that location, so they moved out.


    TD
    Thanks for the correction TD, that was the location I was thinking of...........it must not have lasted very long, eh? I was unaware that it had even opened up but I don't frequent that part of town much,,,,,,,,,,Javelina does have decent food and salsa IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elrancho66 View Post
    Thanks for the correction TD, that was the location I was thinking of...........it must not have lasted very long, eh? I was unaware that it had even opened up but I don't frequent that part of town much,,,,,,,,,,Javelina does have decent food and salsa IMO.
    66:

    It was open for over three months and the original owner of B & B, Craig, helped managing it. The electric scooter company moved out several months later.

    TD

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    Just got an intel update from a fairly reliable source that the Mt. Bike Heaven location may be a new Over the Edge franchise location. The new owner apparently may have been affiliated with a well know bike component wholesaler, and therefore has many years experience in the industry.

    The source didn't think that the Sedona local who recently got a new mountain biking tour permit would not be operating out of the same location.

    Maybe others know the new owner and when he hopes to be opening his doors.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Just got an intel update from a fairly reliable source that the Mt. Bike Heaven location may be a new Over the Edge franchise location. The new owner apparently may have been affiliated with a well know bike component wholesaler, and therefore has many years experience in the industry.

    The source didn't think that the Sedona local who recently got a new mountain biking tour permit would not be operating out of the same location.

    Maybe others know the new owner and when he hopes to be opening his doors.

    TD

    Over the Edge has it posted on their website: coming to Sedona Sept 2011.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

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