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  1. #1
    pedaller
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    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  2. #2
    pedaller
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    This form is being put forth by the Verde Valley Cyclists Coalition to show community support to stop and prevent illegal trail construction. VVCC is also promoting people get involved to help develop and maintain a world class trail system.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  3. #3
    Meatbomb
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    Anytime the words 'world class' gets used, I lose interest.

  4. #4
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    Sedona?

    Tagged for the upcoming tears, butthurt, purse swinging, and all that jazz.

  5. #5
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    Because of illegal trail building Sedona has become a great destination MTB location, but now they want all the bikers in Sedona to stand up against what made the place so good to ride in the first place?

  6. #6
    pedaller
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    They should be handing out awards instead of signing petitions!

    I know a certain someone who'll volunteer to accept the first award presented! In fact, he's already been standing in line patting himself on the back...

    At the legally mandated distance of course!
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  7. #7
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg View Post
    They should be handing out awards instead of signing petitions!

    I know a certain someone who'll volunteer to accept the first award presented! In fact, he's already been standing in line patting himself on the back...

    At the legally mandated distance of course!
    so did you sign the petition as agreeing or disagreeing? I put the following comment in the field for Address, after disagreeing:

    Phoenix rider, who visited Sedona to ride 4 times in 10 years cause the system trails were boring, crowded. I have since ridden Sedona 10 times in 3-4 years since Hangover, Highline and other awesome 'illegal' trails were built. These trails would not exist if the bureaucratic FS was left to administer everything, and all the FS wants is to control. They have neither the resources nor the ability to cater to MTBrs, and they certainly dont build trails that are anywhere near as good and sustainable. Take your petition and go away please, you do not speak for all cyclists.
    Last edited by chollaball; 09-24-2012 at 05:33 PM.

  8. #8
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Signed the pledge to not agree. Sorry, but Sedona riding is hundreds of times better than it was 10 years ago. Chollaball nailed it. They sit on their rear ends until someone kicks them in the rear end by making trails, and now they want us to believe that they would have done it without the kick in the a$$? That sounds like BS Mountain.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  9. #9
    Black and Sticky
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    What this petition is promoting is like motherhood and apple pie. In principle, who could be against this? But it bothers me that their method of enticing me to sign their petition is to threaten me. As in: "Continued illegal trail construction will likely lead to...many of the trails you love will be off limits..." What a paternalistic attitude! Should there be some structure brought to what we are lead to believe is trail building chaos in Sedona? Probably so. I just don't like to be threatened with lack of public access to public land. And mostly, I don't believe the answer is turning this activity over to a bureaucratic, underfunded agency, whose goals are fluid and may not always align with the mtb community.

    Basically I find myself in agreement with Chollaball.

    Bob
    "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." - Neil Kendall

  10. #10
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    The problem is, they are trying to pull a fast one on us. Lots of people weren't here 5 years ago, 10 years ago, and more. So when they say: "illegal trailbuilding", the people who haven't been here that long will think that the riding was at least similar to it's current state, which couldn't be further from the truth. The last about 7 years there have been nothing short of amazing as far as trails and trailbuilding is concerned, and it was all because of illegal well-thought-out trails.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  11. #11
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    Sometimes too much of a good thing can blow up in your face. Take advantage of this opportunity now, it's a different management then what it was 10 years ago.

  12. #12
    Meatbomb
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    Faildoc will be along soon to **** it all up.

  13. #13
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Faildoc will be along soon to **** it all up.
    Yes, you helped to ensure this. Thanks.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  14. #14
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    The thing that worries me is the statement of cross country travel on a non designated route being illegal . So can we be arrested for bush whacking and exploring? Hows about climbing and scramble routes? What about riding on large slick rock areas, can I find myself being attacked by other user groups or even worse, getting arrested while doing so? I'm all for coming up with a plan but this is a little too grey for me to sign it.

  15. #15
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    The FS has been threatening emergency closure of trails in Sedona for resource protection since last spring. And indeed they closed what was probably the last, extended trail to be built in the last year (aka Catwalk). A system-wide closure would be problematic and I don't see it happening. How would they enforce it?

    Besides, there isn't any real estate left in Sedona for illegal trail projects. Sure, they're raising a stink about Brewer and someone was really clueless to try and burn that in. I can see the benefit of signing petitions like this but the other mtn bike club has already made strides to help with rehabilitation of that trail. Signing petitions is good but really they seem a little late to the party.

  16. #16
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    Can we just do like Kelo v. New London? Biggest potential tax base wins?

  17. #17
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    There would be no hunting in arizona if hunters weren't allowed to go off trail/road... Are bikes any worse than boots ?

  18. #18
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    So just to give everyone here some insight. I met with the RRRD FS staff yesterday to discuss this potential closure. The trail building has not stopped(I am not talking about the "Brewer Trail) and the continued construction of trail is not going to fare well for us. Sure we can talk all day about how all the rad trails in Sedona were built. I love all the same trails as you but we are going to kill what is beginning to be a good relationship with the FS. We will be moving into a master planning phase with the RRRD in the coming months. If we can come together and show up to help plan and build new trails that will be needed and help adopt more of the current user built trails then we will be in a good position. If we don't we will continue to moan about how the FS is not doing our bidding. Do you think a shop mechanic would be happy to do you a favor and help build your bike if all you did was ***** about the whole build??
    How about over a couple brews and good talks.....he would probably be more inclined to help a brother out.

    Cheers,

    Lars Romig
    VVCC President

  19. #19
    pedaller
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    Thanks for the reply Lars! I appreciate your input on this matter.

    My question for you is how is signing this petition going to "bring a halt to the construction of illegal trails"?

    The majority of riders have nothing to do with that activity and the ones that do don't care about a petition.

    Just curious.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  20. #20
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by freak-a-zoid View Post
    So just to give everyone here some insight. I met with the RRRD FS staff yesterday to discuss this potential closure. The trail building has not stopped(I am not talking about the "Brewer Trail) and the continued construction of trail is not going to fare well for us. Sure we can talk all day about how all the rad trails in Sedona were built. I love all the same trails as you but we are going to kill what is beginning to be a good relationship with the FS. We will be moving into a master planning phase with the RRRD in the coming months. If we can come together and show up to help plan and build new trails that will be needed and help adopt more of the current user built trails then we will be in a good position. If we don't we will continue to moan about how the FS is not doing our bidding. Do you think a shop mechanic would be happy to do you a favor and help build your bike if all you did was ***** about the whole build??
    How about over a couple brews and good talks.....he would probably be more inclined to help a brother out.

    Cheers,

    Lars Romig
    VVCC President
    well why dont we talk about how all those rad trails were built, without the FS's help. Suddenly the FS has your interests in mind? What exactly are you hoping to get from them that you cant get by just riding your bike and not advertising?

  21. #21
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    We are never going to get all of any user group to be on board with any idea. But if the majority of a culture shifts we can see a much better working relationship with the FS. The petition is a tool to show people are on board with the idea.

    The majority of the riders are the ones that I would hope can see this is going to ruin our fun if it continues. If instead of turning a blind eye when we hear of a new trail or happen upon one we condone it that would send a message to the few who are against this. Also if people jump on board with making it happen with in the FS we would have better turnout to help get things done and new trail on the ground. Anyway I am advising people that want to see more trail in the area and the adoption and maintenance of trail currently on the ground. There are some people well educated in what is going on trying to help the user group by working with the FS and supporting this will greatly help.

    If people want to ***** about what is going on then they should get involved and get educated to see if their rants even make sense.

  22. #22
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by freak-a-zoid View Post
    We are never going to get all of any user group to be on board with any idea. But if the majority of a culture shifts we can see a much better working relationship with the FS. The petition is a tool to show people are on board with the idea.

    The majority of the riders are the ones that I would hope can see this is going to ruin our fun if it continues. If instead of turning a blind eye when we hear of a new trail or happen upon one we condone it that would send a message to the few who are against this. Also if people jump on board with making it happen with in the FS we would have better turnout to help get things done and new trail on the ground. Anyway I am advising people that want to see more trail in the area and the adoption and maintenance of trail currently on the ground. There are some people well educated in what is going on trying to help the user group by working with the FS and supporting this will greatly help.

    If people want to ***** about what is going on then they should get involved and get educated to see if their rants even make sense.
    post a survey on this forum - see what kind of feedback you get? My hunch is its pretty evenly split, so I think you are wrong saying things like 'the few who are against it'. Landmanagers want control. This whole thing is a big exercise in control by the FS, and I think if you let it go quietly away then so will they. I dont think its going to ruin our fun, i think its going to get a few people busted and the rest of us will have much better trails as a result. Those few prolly wouldnt have even gotten busted if they had kept a lower profile, or not had other trail users convincing each other that what they were doing was problematic.

  23. #23
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    here we go....
    fat old man ... fueled by Mexican pastries....

  24. #24
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    One thing is for certain, the relationship with the FS is a whole better today than it was in the 90s. They are making great strides (albeit too slowly for some but NEPA and other studies take time) in adopting trails, increasing trailhead access and even trails like Highline and Hangover are up for adoption. It would be a pity if that process is continued to be undermined by a one or two trail builders that won't give up the game.

    That said, I agree with chollaball. The message was already put out last year. Two people arrested, fined, and banned. If that doesn't do it what will? Peer pressure maybe but who are these new builders? Dollars to donuts it's not the ones that built HO, HE, Slim Shady, Last Frontier, Catwalk, etc. A petition isn't going to help except maybe throw an olive branch to the FS. It would be nice to have more specifics. Where is the new trail construction on-going? Frankly, there's not many places left in Sedona that isn't crossed or accessed somehow by a system or social trail.

    It's my understanding and I can provide the quote that perhaps the biggest issue was/is Traildoc's online map.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    One thing is for certain, the relationship with the FS is a whole better today than it was in the 90s. They are making great strides (albeit too slowly for some but NEPA and other studies take time) in adopting trails, increasing trailhead access and even trails like Highline and Hangover are up for adoption. It would be a pity if that process is continued to be undermined by a one or two trail builders that won't give up the game.

    That said, I agree with chollaball. The message was already put out last year. Two people arrested, fined, and banned. If that doesn't do it what will? Peer pressure maybe but who are these new builders? Dollars to donuts it's not the ones that built HO, HE, Slim Shady, Last Frontier, Catwalk, etc. A petition isn't going to help except maybe throw an olive branch to the FS. It would be nice to have more specifics. Where is the new trail construction on-going? Frankly, there's not many places left in Sedona that isn't crossed or accessed somehow by a system or social trail.

    It's my understanding and I can provide the quote that perhaps the biggest issue was/is Traildoc's online map.
    rock:

    You make some good points, BUT there is something missing. Having been on a four month mountain bike adventure it to find the ultimate mountain bike destination I have found the following locations to be working closely with the FS and BLM.

    First of all Downieville, CA has been adding new trails on a regular basis. Secondly, Oakridge, Oregon is also adding new trails. Thirdly, Bend, Oregon has been adding trails at a rapid pace. Fourthly, Jackson Hole, WY is off the hook with their new XC and Downhill trail systems. Fifthly, Fruita, CO is building a number of new trails. And lastly Moab, UT has 70 miles of new trails over the last three years.

    From what I can tell from talking with the bike shops and people in the know the relationships between the landmanager and trail builders is good.

    In Sedona the relationship between the trail builder and the FS is OK, but it seems like he is the only one who get's to decide. Whether that will ever change who knows.

    One thing for sure in Moab the people in charge of trail signage have their act totally together. Each intersection has a real nice paper map that describes each connecting trail and a color is given to each different trail so it is impossible to get lost. They also have a post and carsonite anchoring system on slickrock that is the bomb.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Sign the pledge Sedona!-ekg.jpg  

    Sign the pledge Sedona!-posr-anchor.jpg  

    Sign the pledge Sedona!-carsoite-anchor.jpg  

    Last edited by traildoc; 09-26-2012 at 04:42 PM.

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