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  1. #1
    pedaller
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    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  2. #2
    pedaller
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    This form is being put forth by the Verde Valley Cyclists Coalition to show community support to stop and prevent illegal trail construction. VVCC is also promoting people get involved to help develop and maintain a world class trail system.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  3. #3
    Meatbomb
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    Anytime the words 'world class' gets used, I lose interest.

  4. #4
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    Sedona?

    Tagged for the upcoming tears, butthurt, purse swinging, and all that jazz.

  5. #5
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    Because of illegal trail building Sedona has become a great destination MTB location, but now they want all the bikers in Sedona to stand up against what made the place so good to ride in the first place?

  6. #6
    pedaller
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    They should be handing out awards instead of signing petitions!

    I know a certain someone who'll volunteer to accept the first award presented! In fact, he's already been standing in line patting himself on the back...

    At the legally mandated distance of course!
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg View Post
    They should be handing out awards instead of signing petitions!

    I know a certain someone who'll volunteer to accept the first award presented! In fact, he's already been standing in line patting himself on the back...

    At the legally mandated distance of course!
    so did you sign the petition as agreeing or disagreeing? I put the following comment in the field for Address, after disagreeing:

    Phoenix rider, who visited Sedona to ride 4 times in 10 years cause the system trails were boring, crowded. I have since ridden Sedona 10 times in 3-4 years since Hangover, Highline and other awesome 'illegal' trails were built. These trails would not exist if the bureaucratic FS was left to administer everything, and all the FS wants is to control. They have neither the resources nor the ability to cater to MTBrs, and they certainly dont build trails that are anywhere near as good and sustainable. Take your petition and go away please, you do not speak for all cyclists.
    Last edited by chollaball; 09-24-2012 at 06:33 PM.

  8. #8
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    Signed the pledge to not agree. Sorry, but Sedona riding is hundreds of times better than it was 10 years ago. Chollaball nailed it. They sit on their rear ends until someone kicks them in the rear end by making trails, and now they want us to believe that they would have done it without the kick in the a$$? That sounds like BS Mountain.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  9. #9
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    What this petition is promoting is like motherhood and apple pie. In principle, who could be against this? But it bothers me that their method of enticing me to sign their petition is to threaten me. As in: "Continued illegal trail construction will likely lead to...many of the trails you love will be off limits..." What a paternalistic attitude! Should there be some structure brought to what we are lead to believe is trail building chaos in Sedona? Probably so. I just don't like to be threatened with lack of public access to public land. And mostly, I don't believe the answer is turning this activity over to a bureaucratic, underfunded agency, whose goals are fluid and may not always align with the mtb community.

    Basically I find myself in agreement with Chollaball.

    Bob
    "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." - Neil Kendall

  10. #10
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    The problem is, they are trying to pull a fast one on us. Lots of people weren't here 5 years ago, 10 years ago, and more. So when they say: "illegal trailbuilding", the people who haven't been here that long will think that the riding was at least similar to it's current state, which couldn't be further from the truth. The last about 7 years there have been nothing short of amazing as far as trails and trailbuilding is concerned, and it was all because of illegal well-thought-out trails.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  11. #11
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    Sometimes too much of a good thing can blow up in your face. Take advantage of this opportunity now, it's a different management then what it was 10 years ago.

  12. #12
    Meatbomb
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    Faildoc will be along soon to **** it all up.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Faildoc will be along soon to **** it all up.
    Yes, you helped to ensure this. Thanks.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  14. #14
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    The thing that worries me is the statement of cross country travel on a non designated route being illegal . So can we be arrested for bush whacking and exploring? Hows about climbing and scramble routes? What about riding on large slick rock areas, can I find myself being attacked by other user groups or even worse, getting arrested while doing so? I'm all for coming up with a plan but this is a little too grey for me to sign it.

  15. #15
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    The FS has been threatening emergency closure of trails in Sedona for resource protection since last spring. And indeed they closed what was probably the last, extended trail to be built in the last year (aka Catwalk). A system-wide closure would be problematic and I don't see it happening. How would they enforce it?

    Besides, there isn't any real estate left in Sedona for illegal trail projects. Sure, they're raising a stink about Brewer and someone was really clueless to try and burn that in. I can see the benefit of signing petitions like this but the other mtn bike club has already made strides to help with rehabilitation of that trail. Signing petitions is good but really they seem a little late to the party.

  16. #16
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    Can we just do like Kelo v. New London? Biggest potential tax base wins?

  17. #17
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    There would be no hunting in arizona if hunters weren't allowed to go off trail/road... Are bikes any worse than boots ?

  18. #18
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    So just to give everyone here some insight. I met with the RRRD FS staff yesterday to discuss this potential closure. The trail building has not stopped(I am not talking about the "Brewer Trail) and the continued construction of trail is not going to fare well for us. Sure we can talk all day about how all the rad trails in Sedona were built. I love all the same trails as you but we are going to kill what is beginning to be a good relationship with the FS. We will be moving into a master planning phase with the RRRD in the coming months. If we can come together and show up to help plan and build new trails that will be needed and help adopt more of the current user built trails then we will be in a good position. If we don't we will continue to moan about how the FS is not doing our bidding. Do you think a shop mechanic would be happy to do you a favor and help build your bike if all you did was ***** about the whole build??
    How about over a couple brews and good talks.....he would probably be more inclined to help a brother out.

    Cheers,

    Lars Romig
    VVCC President

  19. #19
    pedaller
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    Thanks for the reply Lars! I appreciate your input on this matter.

    My question for you is how is signing this petition going to "bring a halt to the construction of illegal trails"?

    The majority of riders have nothing to do with that activity and the ones that do don't care about a petition.

    Just curious.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by freak-a-zoid View Post
    So just to give everyone here some insight. I met with the RRRD FS staff yesterday to discuss this potential closure. The trail building has not stopped(I am not talking about the "Brewer Trail) and the continued construction of trail is not going to fare well for us. Sure we can talk all day about how all the rad trails in Sedona were built. I love all the same trails as you but we are going to kill what is beginning to be a good relationship with the FS. We will be moving into a master planning phase with the RRRD in the coming months. If we can come together and show up to help plan and build new trails that will be needed and help adopt more of the current user built trails then we will be in a good position. If we don't we will continue to moan about how the FS is not doing our bidding. Do you think a shop mechanic would be happy to do you a favor and help build your bike if all you did was ***** about the whole build??
    How about over a couple brews and good talks.....he would probably be more inclined to help a brother out.

    Cheers,

    Lars Romig
    VVCC President
    well why dont we talk about how all those rad trails were built, without the FS's help. Suddenly the FS has your interests in mind? What exactly are you hoping to get from them that you cant get by just riding your bike and not advertising?

  21. #21
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    We are never going to get all of any user group to be on board with any idea. But if the majority of a culture shifts we can see a much better working relationship with the FS. The petition is a tool to show people are on board with the idea.

    The majority of the riders are the ones that I would hope can see this is going to ruin our fun if it continues. If instead of turning a blind eye when we hear of a new trail or happen upon one we condone it that would send a message to the few who are against this. Also if people jump on board with making it happen with in the FS we would have better turnout to help get things done and new trail on the ground. Anyway I am advising people that want to see more trail in the area and the adoption and maintenance of trail currently on the ground. There are some people well educated in what is going on trying to help the user group by working with the FS and supporting this will greatly help.

    If people want to ***** about what is going on then they should get involved and get educated to see if their rants even make sense.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by freak-a-zoid View Post
    We are never going to get all of any user group to be on board with any idea. But if the majority of a culture shifts we can see a much better working relationship with the FS. The petition is a tool to show people are on board with the idea.

    The majority of the riders are the ones that I would hope can see this is going to ruin our fun if it continues. If instead of turning a blind eye when we hear of a new trail or happen upon one we condone it that would send a message to the few who are against this. Also if people jump on board with making it happen with in the FS we would have better turnout to help get things done and new trail on the ground. Anyway I am advising people that want to see more trail in the area and the adoption and maintenance of trail currently on the ground. There are some people well educated in what is going on trying to help the user group by working with the FS and supporting this will greatly help.

    If people want to ***** about what is going on then they should get involved and get educated to see if their rants even make sense.
    post a survey on this forum - see what kind of feedback you get? My hunch is its pretty evenly split, so I think you are wrong saying things like 'the few who are against it'. Landmanagers want control. This whole thing is a big exercise in control by the FS, and I think if you let it go quietly away then so will they. I dont think its going to ruin our fun, i think its going to get a few people busted and the rest of us will have much better trails as a result. Those few prolly wouldnt have even gotten busted if they had kept a lower profile, or not had other trail users convincing each other that what they were doing was problematic.

  23. #23
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    here we go....

  24. #24
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    One thing is for certain, the relationship with the FS is a whole better today than it was in the 90s. They are making great strides (albeit too slowly for some but NEPA and other studies take time) in adopting trails, increasing trailhead access and even trails like Highline and Hangover are up for adoption. It would be a pity if that process is continued to be undermined by a one or two trail builders that won't give up the game.

    That said, I agree with chollaball. The message was already put out last year. Two people arrested, fined, and banned. If that doesn't do it what will? Peer pressure maybe but who are these new builders? Dollars to donuts it's not the ones that built HO, HE, Slim Shady, Last Frontier, Catwalk, etc. A petition isn't going to help except maybe throw an olive branch to the FS. It would be nice to have more specifics. Where is the new trail construction on-going? Frankly, there's not many places left in Sedona that isn't crossed or accessed somehow by a system or social trail.

    It's my understanding and I can provide the quote that perhaps the biggest issue was/is Traildoc's online map.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    One thing is for certain, the relationship with the FS is a whole better today than it was in the 90s. They are making great strides (albeit too slowly for some but NEPA and other studies take time) in adopting trails, increasing trailhead access and even trails like Highline and Hangover are up for adoption. It would be a pity if that process is continued to be undermined by a one or two trail builders that won't give up the game.

    That said, I agree with chollaball. The message was already put out last year. Two people arrested, fined, and banned. If that doesn't do it what will? Peer pressure maybe but who are these new builders? Dollars to donuts it's not the ones that built HO, HE, Slim Shady, Last Frontier, Catwalk, etc. A petition isn't going to help except maybe throw an olive branch to the FS. It would be nice to have more specifics. Where is the new trail construction on-going? Frankly, there's not many places left in Sedona that isn't crossed or accessed somehow by a system or social trail.

    It's my understanding and I can provide the quote that perhaps the biggest issue was/is Traildoc's online map.
    rock:

    You make some good points, BUT there is something missing. Having been on a four month mountain bike adventure it to find the ultimate mountain bike destination I have found the following locations to be working closely with the FS and BLM.

    First of all Downieville, CA has been adding new trails on a regular basis. Secondly, Oakridge, Oregon is also adding new trails. Thirdly, Bend, Oregon has been adding trails at a rapid pace. Fourthly, Jackson Hole, WY is off the hook with their new XC and Downhill trail systems. Fifthly, Fruita, CO is building a number of new trails. And lastly Moab, UT has 70 miles of new trails over the last three years.

    From what I can tell from talking with the bike shops and people in the know the relationships between the landmanager and trail builders is good.

    In Sedona the relationship between the trail builder and the FS is OK, but it seems like he is the only one who get's to decide. Whether that will ever change who knows.

    One thing for sure in Moab the people in charge of trail signage have their act totally together. Each intersection has a real nice paper map that describes each connecting trail and a color is given to each different trail so it is impossible to get lost. They also have a post and carsonite anchoring system on slickrock that is the bomb.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Sign the pledge Sedona!-ekg.jpg  

    Sign the pledge Sedona!-posr-anchor.jpg  

    Sign the pledge Sedona!-carsoite-anchor.jpg  

    Last edited by traildoc; 09-26-2012 at 05:42 PM.

  26. #26
    Meatbomb
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    care to comment on rockman's last sentence?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    You make some good points, BUT there is something missing. Having been on a four month mountain bike adventure it to find the ultimate mountain bike destination I have found the following locations to be working closely with the FS and BLM.

    First of all Downieville, CA has been adding new trails on a regular basis. Secondly, Oakridge, Oregon is also adding new trails. Thirdly, Bend, Oregon has been adding trails at a rapid pace. Fourthly, Jackson Hole, WY is off the hook with their new XC and Downhill trail systems. Fifthly, Fruita, CO is building a number of new trails. And lastly Moab, UT has 70 miles of new trails over the last three years.

    From what I can tell from talking with the bike shops and people in the know the relationships between the landmanager and trail builders is good.

    In Sedona the relationship between the trail builder and the FS is OK, but it seems like he is the only one who get's to decide. Whether that will ever change who knows.

    One thing for sure in Moab the people in charge of trail signage have their act totally together. Each intersection has a real nice paper map that describes each connecting trail and a color is given to each different trail so it is impossible to get lost. They also have a post anchoring system on slickrock that is the bomb.
    All of those places you mention have been at it a lot longer than the Sedona scene with advocacy groups in place to work with the FS. Prior to the arrival of Jennifer on the RRRC recreation staff relations were a bit more frosty and equestrian oriented, no? The Verde Valley Cyclists Coalition was far more road bike oriented than mtn bike so they were not, at that time, sitting at the table with the FS. Maybe I'm wrong but cleary, the FS was not meeting the needs of the mtn bikng community so look what happened. World class trails and now the FS is on board with most of them but you've got to play by their rules. It's easy to play the resource damage card and evoke irreversible ruing to an arch site but you can't use metates as lips for jumps like in the Soldier Wash area

    Sedona is also a bit odd in a geographic sense compared to other places. IMO, it's a far more difficult place for the land manager to deal with. You don't leave city limits to access the trails like Moab, Jackson, or Oakridge. Every house that borders the Nat. Forest has it's own, personal social trail with which to access other trails. It's really a different animal.

    That's not to say I support the petition. Or at least how it is currently worded. Before I signed something like that I'd like to hear from the FS where these new trails are located. Why were they built and are they meeting a need that wasn't being met? That's the driving force and why it's continuing. If indeed it is. I'm not convinced. And if there is a need for a trail in that particular area hopefully the two clubs that now represent the mtn bike community are working to see that those needs are being met. I still get confused by what roles each club is playing. One is an affiliate of IMBA and the other is a chapter. Does the FS really need to deal with two entities representing mtn bike needs. The message needs to be the same or why bother?

  28. #28
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    I give the FS tax dollars and user fees to take care of OUR resources. So they "take care" of it by threatening to close it? How about more enforcement? Keep catching and banning the bad guys, don't punish everyone including the good guys. Thier process of thought would be akin to banning the use of automobiles because some drivers choose to drive without insurance and break laws already in place. I understand the FS is underfunded, but maybe they are also overrreaching with the amount of funding they have.

    I have chosen not to participate in the petition.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    All of those places you mention have been at it a lot longer than the Sedona scene with advocacy groups in place to work with the FS. Prior to the arrival of Jennifer on the RRRC recreation staff relations were a bit more frosty and equestrian oriented, no? The Verde Valley Cyclists Coalition was far more road bike oriented than mtn bike so they were not, at that time, sitting at the table with the FS. Maybe I'm wrong but cleary, the FS was not meeting the needs of the mtn bikng community so look what happened. World class trails and now the FS is on board with most of them but you've got to play by their rules. It's easy to play the resource damage card and evoke irreversible ruing to an arch site but you can't use metates as lips for jumps like in the Soldier Wash area

    Sedona is also a bit odd in a geographic sense compared to other places. IMO, it's a far more difficult place for the land manager to deal with. You don't leave city limits to access the trails like Moab, Jackson, or Oakridge. Every house that borders the Nat. Forest has it's own, personal social trail with which to access other trails. It's really a different animal.

    That's not to say I support the petition. Or at least how it is currently worded. Before I signed something like that I'd like to hear from the FS where these new trails are located. Why were they built and are they meeting a need that wasn't being met? That's the driving force and why it's continuing. If indeed it is. I'm not convinced. And if there is a need for a trail in that particular area hopefully the two clubs that now represent the mtn bike community are working to see that those needs are being met. I still get confused by what roles each club is playing. One is an affiliate of IMBA and the other is a chapter. Does the FS really need to deal with two entities representing mtn bike needs. The message needs to be the same or why bother?
    Come on rock he SMC and VVCC thing is easy. It has nothing to do with IMBA. Jennifer has kissed both presidents of both clubs. When you have that type of relationship with someone you have a tendency to listen to their POV then you do to the general public.

    Plumber Phil is the most experienced trail builder in Sedona, so he gets to decide. Daniel has convinced Jennifer that he is the most knowledgeable cycling club president, so his POV is given more weight than someone like myself who has been in the trenches for the last 20 years.

    I am obviously more transparent then either other boyfriend, and it would be nice if we knew what new trail ideas Phil or Daniel have, so we had an idea where the train is going, if at all.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Come on rock he SMC and VVCC thing is easy. It has nothing to do with IMBA. Jennifer has kissed both presidents of both clubs. When you have that type of relationship with someone you have a tendency to listen to their POV then you do to the general public.

    Plumber Phil is the most experienced trail builder in Sedona, so he gets to decide. Daniel has convinced Jennifer that he is the most knowledgeable cycling club president, so his POV is given more weight than someone like myself who has been in the trenches for the last 20 years.

    I am obviously more transparent then either other boyfriend, and it would be nice if we knew what new trail ideas Phil or Daniel have, so we had an idea where the train is going, if at all.
    TD, those sorts of accusations are in bad taste and won't get you anywhere. Besides, Lars is the president of VVCC.

    As for the train this sounds encouraging:

    RIVERS, TRAILS, CONSERVATION PROGRAM GRANT – This just in: This grant has been secured. The City of Sedona, Forest Service, and IMBA sponsored this grant application. The grant will provide a facilitator to work with the community of trail enthusiasts to create a vision for the future of Red Rock trails. Please let me know if you want to see what the application says and the scope of the project. I will send it to you. This “project” will begin this fall.

    I'd like to hear new ideas for trails as well but seems like there is plenty to do with adopting some of the existing ones. Personally, I'd like to see a one-way flow trail from the top of House Rock Mtn to Page Springs. That would make for a 2000' downhill. Really, the low hanging fruit has been plucked. Where would you build one if you had the opportunity that's not in wilderness?

    What I really don't want to hear is more threats of closing the FS to mtn bikers without some substantive proof that illegal trail building is going on.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    It's my understanding and I can provide the quote that perhaps the biggest issue was/is Traildoc's online map.
    I think you may be on to something. Not to worry, though. It is allowing other user groups to find all the trails so maybe they'll help push for adoption of social trails. I really wanted to take a picture of the horse back riders that I met donning a TD online map.
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  32. #32
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    An important point is that our FS is not building trails. They are adopting previously illegally built ones. They need to put their money where their mouth is.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    . Maybe I'm wrong but cleary, the FS was not meeting the needs of the mtn bikng community so look what happened.
    and instead of acting as public servants, they threaten to shut everything down.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    .One is an affiliate of IMBA and the other is a chapter.
    it was interesting trails, not IMBA dirt-roadie trails, that brought people in. I still think the FS is not getting it. TD made a gamble ~1-2 yrs ago to 'force' adoption by making the interesting trails public info. And now the FS is crapping their pants that someone would get hurt on Hangover if adopted. Until the FS actually embraces what the mtbrs want and design trails for such, which i dont think will happen here, i support the change that awesome illegal trails will drive.


    @Philbo - didnt you post that you've never ridden Sedona? gotta say, you're feud with TD is getting ridiculous for 2 people who've never met in meatspace. Apologies if I've got this wrong.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    and instead of acting as public servants, they threaten to shut everything down.
    I guess you've never been in the military or dealt with the government. "Shut it down" is their answer for everything.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    TD, those sorts of accusations are in bad taste and won't get you anywhere. Besides, Lars is the president of VVCC.

    As for the train this sounds encouraging:

    RIVERS, TRAILS, CONSERVATION PROGRAM GRANT – This just in: This grant has been secured. The City of Sedona, Forest Service, and IMBA sponsored this grant application. The grant will provide a facilitator to work with the community of trail enthusiasts to create a vision for the future of Red Rock trails. Please let me know if you want to see what the application says and the scope of the project. I will send it to you. This “project” will begin this fall.

    I'd like to hear new ideas for trails as well but seems like there is plenty to do with adopting some of the existing ones. Personally, I'd like to see a one-way flow trail from the top of House Rock Mtn to Page Springs. That would make for a 2000' downhill. Really, the low hanging fruit has been plucked. Where would you build one if you had the opportunity that's not in wilderness?

    What I really don't want to hear is more threats of closing the FS to mtn bikers without some substantive proof that illegal trail building is going on.
    Rock:

    I really don't plan on getting anywhere with the Sedona FS. I am just telling viewers who the major players are in the mountain biking community that hope to get somewhere with the FS.

    MTBR gives me the opportunity to get the word out about what other areas are doing and they are getting new trails built on a regular basis. When I was in Downieville Gregg Williams told me about a new trail he was going to build. In Bend they have proposed new routes listed on their current map. In Moab they are looking for new routes for 80 miles of trail. In Fruita they just built a new trail that connects into the Troy Built trail.

    What is the new trail idea for Sedona???????????????????????????

    You know me I want all the user built trails to be adopted.

    You previously brought up a trail name of a user built trail with unbelievable views, that makes for a great 5.5 mile loop. It makes total sense to adopt such a trail. It incorporates a system trail that has been rarely used and makes it a major connector.

    You would think the FS would be excited about offering that loop to the recreating public, but that would be impossible, right?

    Equestrians are using my map, that is a classic. I wonder what trail woahey saw them on, Trancept? I would love to see woahey and Scott when someone walks into B&B and shows them my Sedona southwest and southeast map and asks them about the new Coconino and Hermit trails.
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    Last edited by traildoc; 09-26-2012 at 10:17 PM.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    An important point is that our FS is not building trails. They are adopting previously illegally built ones. They need to put their money where their mouth is.
    Jayem, this statement is not true. In the past year, there have been several new trails built by the FS. Ramshead, Kaibab, Mescal connector, Airie, Cockscomb reroute, Adobe Jack, Javelina, Jordan reroute, and Ant Hill. More trails in one year than in the previous ten.

    Unfortunately, there are so many bad ones (from a layout and sustainability standpoint) that it's pretty obvious that's where the money goes to keep them in the system. For example, Huckabee, Broken Arrow, and Mund's Wagon.

    Another point to make is that once the LEO's get involved it's out of the recreation staff's hands. These are not small town sheriffs but law enforcement for a federal agency. More like the FBI and they don't like illegal activity of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Jayem, this statement is not true. In the past year, there have been several new trails built by the FS. Ramshead, Kaibab, Mescal connector, Airie, Cockscomb reroute, Adobe Jack, Javelina, Jordan reroute, and Ant Hill. More trails in one year than in the previous ten.

    Unfortunately, there are so many bad ones (from a layout and sustainability standpoint) that it's pretty obvious that's where the money goes to keep them in the system. For example, Huckabee, Broken Arrow, and Mund's Wagon.

    Another point to make is that once the LEO's get involved it's out of the recreation staff's hands. These are not small town sheriffs but law enforcement for a federal agency. More like the FBI and they don't like illegal activity of any kind.
    Great Points Rock!!!

    The main takeaway from where we are here is that we all want amazing trail, be able to ride as much as possible, trails stay in good condition and see the area progress. All of our input is better put to use in one large voice than a bunch of online banter. This type of debate will go on forever. Why not let the FS see we are all together and show up to make a difference.

    Cheers,
    Lars

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Jayem, this statement is not true. In the past year, there have been several new trails built by the FS. Ramshead, Kaibab, Mescal connector, Airie, Cockscomb reroute, Adobe Jack, Javelina, Jordan reroute, and Ant Hill. More trails in one year than in the previous ten..
    Rockman:

    You are not entirely correct, but you point is entirely correct.

    Ramshead was a longtime Mountain Bike Heaven route that had been ridden for many years prior to adoption by the FS. Kaibab , Hermit, Yavapi Vista, Basalt, Aeria and Javalina, Cockscomb reroute and Jordan reroute are all new. Adobe Jack has partial new sections, but is mainly an adoption of Lost and Found. Anthill is totally an adoption. Mescal was an old Mountain Bike Heaven route that has about 3/4 of the original route with 1/4 new reroute. Chuck Wagon is a newly adopted user built trail with about 3/4 of the original route with about 1/4 new route.

    There are over 15 other user built trails that are ridden and hiked by the public on a regular basis. I have no clue what the position is of the SMC and the VVCC on those trails. It would be nice to know what their position is on those trails. I know their membership rides them on a regular basis, but you never get the feeling that they want to talk about them openly.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Jayem, this statement is not true. In the past year, there have been several new trails built by the FS. Ramshead, Kaibab, Mescal connector, Airie, Cockscomb reroute, Adobe Jack, Javelina, Jordan reroute, and Ant Hill. More trails in one year than in the previous ten.

    Unfortunately, there are so many bad ones (from a layout and sustainability standpoint) that it's pretty obvious that's where the money goes to keep them in the system. For example, Huckabee, Broken Arrow, and Mund's Wagon.

    Another point to make is that once the LEO's get involved it's out of the recreation staff's hands. These are not small town sheriffs but law enforcement for a federal agency. More like the FBI and they don't like illegal activity of any kind.
    Most of those are segments fractions of a mile long to make connectors for the adopted user-built trails. Either that, or they were user-built trails. Those trails listed wouldn't really be an example of what I was saying.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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    It would be nice to see much more of the user built trails adopted. It would be nice to not see any more user built trail constructed illegally. Yes there are many awesome trails constructed by users under the radar, but I would say we have reached a tipping point. The FS was scrambling to manage MTB all the while trying to manage many other users and interests. The thing you learn working with land managers and government is there are many more facets than you see. The unfortunate thing is this pushes the schedule of getting things done past most of our attention spans. I would love to see the trail system here refined and expanded to address all types of MTB users and skill levels. We are not there yet! Master planning will start in a month with the FS, RTCP, City and the bike clubs. If you want your voice heard I bet you can figure out an avenue to be heard.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by freak-a-zoid View Post
    It would be nice to see much more of the user built trails adopted. It would be nice to not see any more user built trail constructed illegally. Yes there are many awesome trails constructed by users under the radar, but I would say we have reached a tipping point. The FS was scrambling to manage MTB all the while trying to manage many other users and interests. The thing you learn working with land managers and government is there are many more facets than you see. The unfortunate thing is this pushes the schedule of getting things done past most of our attention spans. I would love to see the trail system here refined and expanded to address all types of MTB users and skill levels. We are not there yet! Master planning will start in a month with the FS, RTCP, City and the bike clubs. If you want your voice heard I bet you can figure out an avenue to be heard.
    Freak:

    The FS knows I would like to be involved in the adoption of the current user built system. I have made this known from day one working with Jennifer. Do you think there will ever be an Adopt-a-Trail program to do maintenance on adopted user built trails?

    The Master plan has been discussed for years, it will be interesting what comes up next month. In the mean time there are user built trails that have been scoped in the last go round that haven't been adopted yet, how long do you think it will take to get through that inventory of trails?

    There is one trail that got scoped and studied a number of year ago. It was a very simple trail to adopt and provided a great connector to other current system trails. If a trail that is so easy to adopt doesn't get adopted due to the current backlog of other priorities, I just wonder if the Master planning is a way to sidetrack the actual adoption process of the current user built trail inventory.

    It will be interesting if Ramajon's new book will shed any light on the history of Sedona mountain biking.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Freak:

    The FS knows I would like to be involved in the adoption of the current user built system. I have made this known from day one working with Jennifer. Do you think there will ever be an Adopt-a-Trail program to do maintenance on adopted user built trails?

    The Master plan has been discussed for years, it will be interesting what comes up next month. In the mean time there are user built trails that have been scoped in the last go round that haven't been adopted yet, how long do you think it will take to get through that inventory of trails?

    There is one trail that got scoped and studied a number of year ago. It was a very simple trail to adopt and provided a great connector to other current system trails. If a trail that is so easy to adopt doesn't get adopted due to the current backlog of other priorities, I just wonder if the Master planning is a way to sidetrack the actual adoption process of the current user built trail inventory.

    It will be interesting if Ramajon's new book will shed any light on the history of Sedona mountain biking.
    Right now maintenance has been occurring on Slim Shaddy and a proposal to do work on Adobe Jack has been submitted and approved.

    I don't know what you would have to do to get back in good standing with the FS to be involved.

    As for trails coming on board, I the past 2 few months I took the archeologist through Hangover, Phil and I went through Highline as well and Phil took him out on Gunslinger. From what I understand the clearances on those are being written by staff and to move forward we need more support from the community volunteering to help adopt them...signing, a couple reroutes and improvements.

    I don't think the master planning is any kind of diversion or sidetrack strategy. I also work for government and understand how slow the animal is. I do know the animal is moving much better these days.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by freak-a-zoid View Post
    Right now maintenance has been occurring on Slim Shaddy and a proposal to do work on Adobe Jack has been submitted and approved.

    I don't know what you would have to do to get back in good standing with the FS to be involved.

    As for trails coming on board, I the past 2 few months I took the archeologist through Hangover, Phil and I went through Highline as well and Phil took him out on Gunslinger. From what I understand the clearances on those are being written by staff and to move forward we need more support from the community volunteering to help adopt them...signing, a couple reroutes and improvements.

    I don't think the master planning is any kind of diversion or sidetrack strategy. I also work for government and understand how slow the animal is. I do know the animal is moving much better these days.
    Freak:

    When you went out with the archeologist on Hangover how much of the trail was routed through archeology sites?

    I am going to volunteer to do some trail work here in Moab on a trail re-route of the Killer-B trail. The current trail has some unrideable sections and I thought it would be nice to help them with some trail improvements to make the trail rideable by the advanced masses.

    It will be interesting if the locals appreciate the help.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Freak:

    When you went out with the archeologist on Hangover how much of the trail was routed through archeology sites?

    I am going to volunteer to do some trail work here in Moab on a trail re-route of the Killer-B trail. The current trail has some unrideable sections and I thought it would be nice to help them with some trail improvements to make the trail rideable by the advanced masses.

    It will be interesting if the locals appreciate the help.
    There was only one below the trail that there was some drainage issues on the trail above dumping sediment into the site. Sounded lie it was possibly just re working the tread to make it work or a small reroute.

    What do the locals think of the idea on your proposed trail work?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    The thing that worries me is the statement of cross country travel on a non designated route being illegal . So can we be arrested for bush whacking and exploring? Hows about climbing and scramble routes? What about riding on large slick rock areas, can I find myself being attacked by other user groups or even worse, getting arrested while doing so? I'm all for coming up with a plan but this is a little too grey for me to sign it.
    The meeting we had the FS staff was to get more clarification on the potential closure. I asked that exact question on all other users and our want to be treated equally with other users. Anyways if your not feeling the want to sign the pledge then please take the time to contact the FS and express your thoughts. My goal is to not see a closure as one it will make an unknown number of trails we love off limits, two if it sent out to the press in any form with Closure, Trails and MTB it is not good for the MTB scene.

    If your all for coming up with a plan than please give your ideas because our hope is to not see the closure. The feeling I got was that FS staff is leaning towards the closure but sees the potential issues. The good news is they are listening to us and we can move forward with progressing the MTB system.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I am going to volunteer to do some trail work here in Moab on a trail re-route of the Killer-B trail. The current trail has some unrideable sections and I thought it would be nice to help them with some trail improvements to make the trail rideable by the advanced masses.

    It will be interesting if the locals appreciate the help.
    I gotta take the bait on this one. Who says it is unrideable? If you are using you and your wife's skill levels as guidelines, maybe you should contact some of the local clubs and see what others think about having you "fix" or "improve" their backyard trails.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    I gotta take the bait on this one. Who says it is unrideable? If you are using you and your wife's skill levels as guidelines, maybe you should contact some of the local clubs and see what others think about having you "fix" or "improve" their backyard trails.
    woahey

    You know I am smart enough to know when a reroute needs to be made. Taking the initiative to
    do necessary trail reroutes is only a problem in Sedona.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    woahey

    You know I am smart enough to know when a reroute needs to be made. Taking the initiative to
    do necessary trail reroutes is only a problem in Sedona.
    Both of those statements could easily be argued. Just don't get caught- I'd hate to see what happens when one gets a second offense on a federal charge. I hear Ecuador has some sweet biking...
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Both of those statements could easily be argued. Just don't get caught- I'd hate to see what happens when one gets a second offense on a federal charge. I hear Ecuador has some sweet biking...
    Get a fat bike and head for Dubai.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Both of those statements could easily be argued. Just don't get caught- I'd hate to see what happens when one gets a second offense on a federal charge. I hear Ecuador has some sweet biking...
    woahey:

    I contacted my volunteer buddies from Sedona and they decided this project is worth the risk. I hope to get some pictures of us riding the new section when its done .
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