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  1. #1
    parenting for gnarness
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    Seeking feedback on a proposed petition to require equestrians to bag their poo

    Would you sign a simple single-issue petition to land managers asking that equestrians be required to clean up behind themselves? It seems to me that the only people not disgusted by piles of poo on the trail are the equestrians, so with numbers overwhelmingly against, why should this continue?

    Would it have any traction?

    What would the pros and cons be if such a petition was forwarded to decision-makers? Positive or negative blowback?

  2. #2
    How much further ???
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    Con: GIANT blue bags of poo thrown on the side of the trail.

    In all seriousness I don't see it happening. I would be all for a compromise of just shoveling it off the trail. No need to pick it up and lug out several pounds of feces. Just scrape it off the trail at least.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  3. #3
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    I think I saw somewhere they had these bags that attach behind the horse that catch the trail litter. This as a requirement doesn't seem too unreasonable.

    To answer the question, yes I'd sign it.

  4. #4
    EDR
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    Beef-A-Reen-O

    I think it would take an obscenely huge effort to make it happen. I would be more in favor of a simpler change that required all trial users to leave all officially sanctioned multi-use trails poo and garbage free. This could mean you tie a diaper to your horse or dog, or it could simply mean you move it off trail after the fact. It leaves options without dictating too much. Still won't happen though.




  5. #5
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    go fer it. Try it on Jennifer first at Coco. Even if it was only, to start, on some selected trails; ie high use 'hiking/runnin' trails; that w/b a good start.
    Great idea.
    I don't understand why some dog owners go to the trouble to scoop it into a bag; then just toss the bag beside the trail; guess its better than ds right on the trail; but the bags are unsightly; of course, so are horses. TS

  6. #6
    How much further ???
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    I would sign a petition to remove horses all together from multi-use trails Then sign a petition to open all wilderness trails to mountain bikers. And then sign a petition to remove all hikers and designate all trails in the world mountain bikers ONLY .............

    Sorry I was nodding off at my desk..... what were we talking about again?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  7. #7
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    Horse Diapers

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Would you sign a simple single-issue petition to land managers asking that equestrians be required to clean up behind themselves?
    In a simple word: no.

    Horse shit does not bother me one bit.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  9. #9
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    Horse crap while unsightly is typically pretty dry and decomposes fairly quickly. It doesn't really bother me unless I am right behind the horse doing it.
    I don't see it sticking anyway, most of the time riders don't even know the horses have dropped a load as they just do it as they walk.

  10. #10
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    its like baseball sized bunny-pills

  11. #11
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    Horse craap on trails is an obstacle that often takes skill to manuever around. If you remove the horse craap on the trails are you in essence sanitizing the trails...and we know how the MTB community feels about sanitizing trails...

  12. #12
    How much further ???
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    Good point. I better start holding my BM's so I can take a dump on the trail and un-sanitize it.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  13. #13
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    Ya, alfalfa decomposes very quickly, and is actually a good fertilizer. All the junk in dog food, including meat-by products, make carnivore poo much more toxic, bacteria-ridden, smellier, and attracts more pests. Horse poo is annoying cause it is big, but it is gone in a week. Dog shit takes months to break down.

    When I hike and see a horse turd, if it is dry, I kick it to the side of the trail so no one steps in it. Problem solved.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Ya, alfalfa decomposes very quickly, and is actually a good fertilizer. All the junk in dog food, including meat-by products, make carnivore poo much more toxic, bacteria-ridden, smellier, and attracts more pests. Horse poo is annoying cause it is big, but it is gone in a week. Dog shit takes months to break down.

    When I hike and see a horse turd, if it is dry, I kick it to the side of the trail so no one steps in it. Problem solved.
    ^^^^Bingo. Horse shit and dog shit are two completely different things.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    ^^^^Bingo. Horse shit and dog shit are two completely different things.
    God, I love, LOVE that I can type shit on this site. Shit, SHIT, sHiT, ShIT.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  16. #16
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    Don't care, horse shit on trails doesn't bother me a bit.

  17. #17
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    Hmmmm, what else doesn't get censored?
    **** crap damn ass **** ***** ***** dick

  18. #18
    parenting for gnarness
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    Would you touch week-old horse poo with your hands?
    Is it reasonable to ask the non-horseshitting public to tolerate littering?
    How is a pile of dried horse poo any less littering than a sealed blue dog poo bag?
    Is there a double-standard for equestrians compared to other trail users?

  19. #19
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    I rode behind some horse yesterday......fresh piles of poo flung up onto my downtube and water bottle.....that's unsanitary and disgusting.

    Yes, I will sign a petition.

  20. #20
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    I think toasted cheese sandwiches with bacon on rye are my favorite. And substitute a small amount of extra-virgin olive oil in the pan for the butter, and the bacon becomes that much healthier. Almost vegetable, even.

    As for horses, their poop is pretty benign. It's the cow shit to look out for.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Ya, alfalfa decomposes very quickly, and is actually a good fertilizer. All the junk in dog food, including meat-by products, make carnivore poo much more toxic, bacteria-ridden, smellier, and attracts more pests. Horse poo is annoying cause it is big, but it is gone in a week. Dog shit takes months to break down.

    When I hike and see a horse turd, if it is dry, I kick it to the side of the trail so no one steps in it. Problem solved.
    Here's the thing though...if you're looking in the sense of conservation... Horse poo, which is slightly digested and metabolized hay, contains many seeds of non-native and sometimes invasive species of plant life. By letting horses poo all over the desert, the potential of introducing even more non-native invasive plants than we already have increases dramatically. Dog shit is exactly that. Shit. It (usually) does not carry seeds that have the potential to become plants that aren't from the area. Casual Observer is on to something...horse shit and dog shit aren't the same thing...even though they both get left on the trails by thoughtless animal owners...one will grow into other problems, the other just sits on the side of the trail in a little blue bag...
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  22. #22
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    ^^^^Bingo. Horse shit and dog shit are two completely different things.
    Well, yeah, I mean, unless two things are actually the same thing, they are always two different things.

    Then again, the veterinarians use long arm-length rubber gloves when they stick their hand up a horses a$$...what do they know what we don't?

    Did all the flies and bugs that flocked to the poop use their hand sanitizer before landing on it?

    If you're claiming their shit don't stink...it most certainly does. Maybe not in the exact same way as others, but stinky, messy, obnoxious, unsanitary, disgusting and all the other descriptions that one would expect from.....shit.

    I'd sign that petition in a heartbeat. Find a mostly-hiker type trail and submit a petition for it. They use those horse-diaper things in most cities that have horses downtown being enslaved for stuff (riding, carriages, etc), I guess someone in those cities doesn't agree that the shit is such great stuff...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  23. #23
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    I would love for a few horses to take some MASSIVE dumps in my compost pile...

  24. #24
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    SHIT SHIT SHIT...Yup that felt good. I'd probably sign it to be honest. Shit is shit in my opinion, and I don't understand why the horse people are immune to the rules/common courtesy that everyone else follows. I know one thing, fresh horse shit being flung up into my bike and face is not a good thing

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

  25. #25
    Meatbomb
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    Poop does not bother me but the blue bags do.

  26. #26
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    there was a ton of fresh (dark and shiny) dogshit out at hawes yesterday,, likely from the dozen or so off-leash dogs i passed on my ride. not a single one of the owners was carrying a bag.

  27. #27
    Huffy Rider
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    I brought this up to a horse rider at a Prescott ride, this is what she said to me, "These people can barely get on their horses, let alone get off and back on several times a ride without assistance. Never gonna happen"

  28. #28
    How much further ???
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    Considering that 90% of horse riders I have seen are either fat or old I would tend to agree with this comment. Horse crap on the trail is a fact of life, just like mountain bikers riding fast. It's not ever going to stop so we better all just start dealing with each other.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  29. #29
    Give it a crank
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    Horseshit is what binds us to the origins of our civilization when we first domesticated horses. If it hadn't been for the horse for thousands of years, we probably would still be living as hunter/gatherers today.

    That would mean no mountain bikes today, so be happy every time you have to swerve a pile of horseshit.

  30. #30
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    They seem to have better manners when they don't have a saddle and rider on them.

    Seeking feedback on a proposed petition to require equestrians to bag their poo-dscn0394.jpg

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Then again, the veterinarians use long arm-length rubber gloves when they stick their hand up a horses a$$...what do they know what we don't?
    This is your argument?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Would you touch week-old horse poo with your hands?
    I would have no problem touching week-old horse shit, otherwise know as hay.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  33. #33
    parenting for gnarness
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    allow me to throw out this idea: it has been purported that we bikers have little or no influence in the Mcdowell Preserve, because we don't attend meetings or participate as an organized group. Setting aside for a moment the bias (or perception thereof) against us by the Preserve Commission and many stewards etc, what other tools are available to us to be heard as a unified user group? I know for a fact city planners sometimes read this board, that lots of work gets done by conversations and correspondence, that 1000 signatures on a petition will get attention, and that meetings at least partially are an antiquated ritual which today merely extend the illusion of access to decision-makers but which in reality accomplish very little during the actual meeting.

    Still with me?

    Petitions are a way for decision makers to realize "there is an issue". They don't require an organized group to represent us, they don't require we show up. They make noise, and make land managers realize the natives are restless and need to heard. I don't believe there is any better way, at this time, for us to make noise and draw attention to ourselves as a user group with needs. We have no umbrella organization or people willing to be the point-of-contact for any such group. So we can either act in an amorphous but semi-directional manner together, or we can keep eating horse shit from the Preserve Commission.

    Horse poo bothers me very much when its wet, dont care when its dry. Us having no influence whatsoever, being an afterthought and the least prioritized user group, bothers me very much. So we might as well become a splinter that throbs, i dont think we have anything to lose, by saying en masse "horse poo is nasty". Its a good issue, because no one in the Preserve Commission can deny that its nasty or at best unsightly, that litter is bad. No one can deny the double-standard for equestrians, and at the same time equestrians are the most vocal and powerful anti-bike group out there. In short, this is an issue that those in charge will hopefully nod at and say 'yes, we agree with some of what you say'. Issues like this where we complain en masse are a first step to the Preserve Commission recognizing that there are a lot of us, with the potential to organize.

    i'm kinda brainstorming, as right now there is no one representing our interested in Scottsdale. But I *think* our first step to getting any traction in the Preserve is to make noise and get attention around issues that can't be opposed - littering, horse poo, trail destruction. Maybe after we get a foot in the door, we can actually start having an influence in planning. If not, we still make people uncomfortable with our agitation, which is at least some kind of influence.

    Let's hear your feedback! keep it productive and civil.

  34. #34
    Don't believe the Hype...
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    Having Horse problems? I feel for ya son...I got 99 problems but HorseShit aint one
    Made with real bits of Panther, so you know it's good...

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    In a simple word: no.

    Horse shit does not bother me one bit.
    your avatar is a skunk, you like stinky things
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  36. #36
    Meatbomb
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    I'm curious which trails you ride that has so much poop on it to get this much attention?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    allow me to throw out this idea: it has been purported that we bikers have little or no influence in the Mcdowell Preserve, because we don't attend meetings or participate as an organized group. Setting aside for a moment the bias (or perception thereof) against us by the Preserve Commission and many stewards etc, what other tools are available to us to be heard as a unified user group? I know for a fact city planners sometimes read this board, that lots of work gets done by conversations and correspondence, that 1000 signatures on a petition will get attention, and that meetings at least partially are an antiquated ritual which today merely extend the illusion of access to decision-makers but which in reality accomplish very little during the actual meeting.

    Still with me?

    Petitions are a way for decision makers to realize "there is an issue". They don't require an organized group to represent us, they don't require we show up. They make noise, and make land managers realize the natives are restless and need to heard. I don't believe there is any better way, at this time, for us to make noise and draw attention to ourselves as a user group with needs. We have no umbrella organization or people willing to be the point-of-contact for any such group. So we can either act in an amorphous but semi-directional manner together, or we can keep eating horse shit from the Preserve Commission.

    Horse poo bothers me very much when its wet, dont care when its dry. Us having no influence whatsoever, being an afterthought and the least prioritized user group, bothers me very much. So we might as well become a splinter that throbs, i dont think we have anything to lose, by saying en masse "horse poo is nasty". Its a good issue, because no one in the Preserve Commission can deny that its nasty or at best unsightly, that litter is bad. No one can deny the double-standard for equestrians, and at the same time equestrians are the most vocal and powerful anti-bike group out there. In short, this is an issue that those in charge will hopefully nod at and say 'yes, we agree with some of what you say'. Issues like this where we complain en masse are a first step to the Preserve Commission recognizing that there are a lot of us, with the potential to organize.

    i'm kinda brainstorming, as right now there is no one representing our interested in Scottsdale. But I *think* our first step to getting any traction in the Preserve is to make noise and get attention around issues that can't be opposed - littering, horse poo, trail destruction. Maybe after we get a foot in the door, we can actually start having an influence in planning. If not, we still make people uncomfortable with our agitation, which is at least some kind of influence.

    Let's hear your feedback! keep it productive and civil.
    Just to make sure I understand: Reader's Digest version is you're recommending that mt bikers come up with a cause to show our solidarity? Does that pretty much sum it up?

    If so, I personally think there are other "causes" we could support other than horse shit. In fact, many of those who have commented said they are more upset with dog shit and blue bags. How about requiring dogs wear diapers, since many dog owners obviously can't seem to either pick after their dogs? Or if they do, they leave the bags on the sides of the trail?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  38. #38
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    If you're looking at causes that all of "us" agree on, if not poop, how about horses on wet trails. I hate when a previously smooth trail ends up looking and riding like moonscape from horse hooves. It takes a long time to undo the damage.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    you're recommending that mt bikers come up with a cause to show our solidarity?
    exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    How about requiring dogs wear diapers
    picking up dog poo is already mandated.

    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    horses on wet trails.
    better, but unlikely to offend people like fresh poo. Nor likely make the Preserve Commission as uncomfortable as discord between bikers and equestrians. Successful populist politics is about division.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    exactly



    picking up dog poo is already mandated.



    better, but unlikely to offend people like fresh poo. Nor likely make the Preserve Commission as uncomfortable as discord between bikers and equestrians. Successful populist politics is about division.
    Personally, I feel you're barking up the wrong tree, and run the risk of causing greater division. I think there are other causes and ways to show our solidarity than to target other trail users.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Personally, I feel you're barking up the wrong tree, and run the risk of causing greater division. I think there are other causes and ways to show our solidarity than to target other trail users.
    Please elaborate, with the goal of getting the Preserve Commission to account for the preferences of non-beginner riders.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Please elaborate, with the goal of getting the Preserve Commission to account for the preferences of non-beginner riders.
    Not sure I understand your question. Can you explain what you mean by "goal of getting the Preserve Commission to account for the preferences of non-beginner riders?"
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Not sure I understand your question. Can you explain what you mean by "goal of getting the Preserve Commission to account for the preferences of non-beginner riders?"
    go back through this thread, and more so through concurrent threads on Brown's Ranch. any fresh ideas would be welcome in the conversation.

  44. #44
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    The reason equestrians are not required to pick up after their horses is that they are designated as 'pack' animals and are not under the same regulations as our dog friends. Dogs are designated as 'domesticated' animals and their owners are required to pick up after them. I don't care about horse poop that is a few days old, but if I encounter some fresh steaming pile of crap, I make sure to avoid it!

    I say go forward with your petition, but I think there is a better chance of it snowing tonight than this being taken seriously by preserve management.

  45. #45
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    No!
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  46. #46
    Meatbomb
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    Poop is not something I will become polarized enough by to sign a petition ... with my real name.

  47. #47
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    I guess it's a sign of the times. Can't even get people to agree to dislike stepping in shit. We're sunk...

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjkm View Post
    The reason equestrians are not required to pick up after their horses is that they are designated as 'pack' animals and are not under the same regulations as our dog friends. Dogs are designated as 'domesticated' animals and their owners are required to pick up after them. I don't care about horse poop that is a few days old, but if I encounter some fresh steaming pile of crap, I make sure to avoid it!

    I say go forward with your petition, but I think there is a better chance of it snowing tonight than this being taken seriously by preserve management.
    based on your experiences thus far, any new ideas for bikers getting considered as more than red-headed stepchildren?

    thanks for sharing the horse rules. Seems reasonable back in the day, seems silly now. I wonder if a rescue dog or sight assist dog can drop bombs at will?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    I guess it's a sign of the times. Can't even get people to agree to dislike stepping in shit. We're sunk...
    It's not that I prefer stepping in it. Besides ones interest in avoiding horse crap! What do you really see will be gained by getting in a riff with those that ride horses on the same trails as us?
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  50. #50
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    Many of the Rangers in the Preserves are equestrians having recently reluctantly given up their horses , I doubt they would support the horseshit mandate.

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