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  1. #1
    parenting for gnarness
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    Seeking feedback on a proposed petition to require equestrians to bag their poo

    Would you sign a simple single-issue petition to land managers asking that equestrians be required to clean up behind themselves? It seems to me that the only people not disgusted by piles of poo on the trail are the equestrians, so with numbers overwhelmingly against, why should this continue?

    Would it have any traction?

    What would the pros and cons be if such a petition was forwarded to decision-makers? Positive or negative blowback?

  2. #2
    How much further ???
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    Con: GIANT blue bags of poo thrown on the side of the trail.

    In all seriousness I don't see it happening. I would be all for a compromise of just shoveling it off the trail. No need to pick it up and lug out several pounds of feces. Just scrape it off the trail at least.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  3. #3
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    I think I saw somewhere they had these bags that attach behind the horse that catch the trail litter. This as a requirement doesn't seem too unreasonable.

    To answer the question, yes I'd sign it.

  4. #4
    EDR
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    Beef-A-Reen-O

    I think it would take an obscenely huge effort to make it happen. I would be more in favor of a simpler change that required all trial users to leave all officially sanctioned multi-use trails poo and garbage free. This could mean you tie a diaper to your horse or dog, or it could simply mean you move it off trail after the fact. It leaves options without dictating too much. Still won't happen though.




  5. #5
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    go fer it. Try it on Jennifer first at Coco. Even if it was only, to start, on some selected trails; ie high use 'hiking/runnin' trails; that w/b a good start.
    Great idea.
    I don't understand why some dog owners go to the trouble to scoop it into a bag; then just toss the bag beside the trail; guess its better than ds right on the trail; but the bags are unsightly; of course, so are horses. TS

  6. #6
    How much further ???
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    I would sign a petition to remove horses all together from multi-use trails Then sign a petition to open all wilderness trails to mountain bikers. And then sign a petition to remove all hikers and designate all trails in the world mountain bikers ONLY .............

    Sorry I was nodding off at my desk..... what were we talking about again?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  7. #7
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    Horse Diapers

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Would you sign a simple single-issue petition to land managers asking that equestrians be required to clean up behind themselves?
    In a simple word: no.

    Horse shit does not bother me one bit.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  9. #9
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    Horse crap while unsightly is typically pretty dry and decomposes fairly quickly. It doesn't really bother me unless I am right behind the horse doing it.
    I don't see it sticking anyway, most of the time riders don't even know the horses have dropped a load as they just do it as they walk.

  10. #10
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    its like baseball sized bunny-pills

  11. #11
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    Horse craap on trails is an obstacle that often takes skill to manuever around. If you remove the horse craap on the trails are you in essence sanitizing the trails...and we know how the MTB community feels about sanitizing trails...

  12. #12
    How much further ???
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    Good point. I better start holding my BM's so I can take a dump on the trail and un-sanitize it.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  13. #13
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    Ya, alfalfa decomposes very quickly, and is actually a good fertilizer. All the junk in dog food, including meat-by products, make carnivore poo much more toxic, bacteria-ridden, smellier, and attracts more pests. Horse poo is annoying cause it is big, but it is gone in a week. Dog shit takes months to break down.

    When I hike and see a horse turd, if it is dry, I kick it to the side of the trail so no one steps in it. Problem solved.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Ya, alfalfa decomposes very quickly, and is actually a good fertilizer. All the junk in dog food, including meat-by products, make carnivore poo much more toxic, bacteria-ridden, smellier, and attracts more pests. Horse poo is annoying cause it is big, but it is gone in a week. Dog shit takes months to break down.

    When I hike and see a horse turd, if it is dry, I kick it to the side of the trail so no one steps in it. Problem solved.
    ^^^^Bingo. Horse shit and dog shit are two completely different things.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    ^^^^Bingo. Horse shit and dog shit are two completely different things.
    God, I love, LOVE that I can type shit on this site. Shit, SHIT, sHiT, ShIT.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  16. #16
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    Don't care, horse shit on trails doesn't bother me a bit.

  17. #17
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    Hmmmm, what else doesn't get censored?
    **** crap damn ass **** ***** ***** dick

  18. #18
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    Would you touch week-old horse poo with your hands?
    Is it reasonable to ask the non-horseshitting public to tolerate littering?
    How is a pile of dried horse poo any less littering than a sealed blue dog poo bag?
    Is there a double-standard for equestrians compared to other trail users?

  19. #19
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    I rode behind some horse yesterday......fresh piles of poo flung up onto my downtube and water bottle.....that's unsanitary and disgusting.

    Yes, I will sign a petition.

  20. #20
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    I think toasted cheese sandwiches with bacon on rye are my favorite. And substitute a small amount of extra-virgin olive oil in the pan for the butter, and the bacon becomes that much healthier. Almost vegetable, even.

    As for horses, their poop is pretty benign. It's the cow shit to look out for.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Ya, alfalfa decomposes very quickly, and is actually a good fertilizer. All the junk in dog food, including meat-by products, make carnivore poo much more toxic, bacteria-ridden, smellier, and attracts more pests. Horse poo is annoying cause it is big, but it is gone in a week. Dog shit takes months to break down.

    When I hike and see a horse turd, if it is dry, I kick it to the side of the trail so no one steps in it. Problem solved.
    Here's the thing though...if you're looking in the sense of conservation... Horse poo, which is slightly digested and metabolized hay, contains many seeds of non-native and sometimes invasive species of plant life. By letting horses poo all over the desert, the potential of introducing even more non-native invasive plants than we already have increases dramatically. Dog shit is exactly that. Shit. It (usually) does not carry seeds that have the potential to become plants that aren't from the area. Casual Observer is on to something...horse shit and dog shit aren't the same thing...even though they both get left on the trails by thoughtless animal owners...one will grow into other problems, the other just sits on the side of the trail in a little blue bag...
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    ^^^^Bingo. Horse shit and dog shit are two completely different things.
    Well, yeah, I mean, unless two things are actually the same thing, they are always two different things.

    Then again, the veterinarians use long arm-length rubber gloves when they stick their hand up a horses a$$...what do they know what we don't?

    Did all the flies and bugs that flocked to the poop use their hand sanitizer before landing on it?

    If you're claiming their shit don't stink...it most certainly does. Maybe not in the exact same way as others, but stinky, messy, obnoxious, unsanitary, disgusting and all the other descriptions that one would expect from.....shit.

    I'd sign that petition in a heartbeat. Find a mostly-hiker type trail and submit a petition for it. They use those horse-diaper things in most cities that have horses downtown being enslaved for stuff (riding, carriages, etc), I guess someone in those cities doesn't agree that the shit is such great stuff...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  23. #23
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    I would love for a few horses to take some MASSIVE dumps in my compost pile...

  24. #24
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    SHIT SHIT SHIT...Yup that felt good. I'd probably sign it to be honest. Shit is shit in my opinion, and I don't understand why the horse people are immune to the rules/common courtesy that everyone else follows. I know one thing, fresh horse shit being flung up into my bike and face is not a good thing

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

  25. #25
    Meatbomb
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    Poop does not bother me but the blue bags do.

  26. #26
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    there was a ton of fresh (dark and shiny) dogshit out at hawes yesterday,, likely from the dozen or so off-leash dogs i passed on my ride. not a single one of the owners was carrying a bag.

  27. #27
    Huffy Rider
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    I brought this up to a horse rider at a Prescott ride, this is what she said to me, "These people can barely get on their horses, let alone get off and back on several times a ride without assistance. Never gonna happen"

  28. #28
    How much further ???
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    Considering that 90% of horse riders I have seen are either fat or old I would tend to agree with this comment. Horse crap on the trail is a fact of life, just like mountain bikers riding fast. It's not ever going to stop so we better all just start dealing with each other.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  29. #29
    Give it a crank
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    Horseshit is what binds us to the origins of our civilization when we first domesticated horses. If it hadn't been for the horse for thousands of years, we probably would still be living as hunter/gatherers today.

    That would mean no mountain bikes today, so be happy every time you have to swerve a pile of horseshit.

  30. #30
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    They seem to have better manners when they don't have a saddle and rider on them.

    Seeking feedback on a proposed petition to require equestrians to bag their poo-dscn0394.jpg

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Then again, the veterinarians use long arm-length rubber gloves when they stick their hand up a horses a$$...what do they know what we don't?
    This is your argument?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Would you touch week-old horse poo with your hands?
    I would have no problem touching week-old horse shit, otherwise know as hay.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  33. #33
    parenting for gnarness
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    allow me to throw out this idea: it has been purported that we bikers have little or no influence in the Mcdowell Preserve, because we don't attend meetings or participate as an organized group. Setting aside for a moment the bias (or perception thereof) against us by the Preserve Commission and many stewards etc, what other tools are available to us to be heard as a unified user group? I know for a fact city planners sometimes read this board, that lots of work gets done by conversations and correspondence, that 1000 signatures on a petition will get attention, and that meetings at least partially are an antiquated ritual which today merely extend the illusion of access to decision-makers but which in reality accomplish very little during the actual meeting.

    Still with me?

    Petitions are a way for decision makers to realize "there is an issue". They don't require an organized group to represent us, they don't require we show up. They make noise, and make land managers realize the natives are restless and need to heard. I don't believe there is any better way, at this time, for us to make noise and draw attention to ourselves as a user group with needs. We have no umbrella organization or people willing to be the point-of-contact for any such group. So we can either act in an amorphous but semi-directional manner together, or we can keep eating horse shit from the Preserve Commission.

    Horse poo bothers me very much when its wet, dont care when its dry. Us having no influence whatsoever, being an afterthought and the least prioritized user group, bothers me very much. So we might as well become a splinter that throbs, i dont think we have anything to lose, by saying en masse "horse poo is nasty". Its a good issue, because no one in the Preserve Commission can deny that its nasty or at best unsightly, that litter is bad. No one can deny the double-standard for equestrians, and at the same time equestrians are the most vocal and powerful anti-bike group out there. In short, this is an issue that those in charge will hopefully nod at and say 'yes, we agree with some of what you say'. Issues like this where we complain en masse are a first step to the Preserve Commission recognizing that there are a lot of us, with the potential to organize.

    i'm kinda brainstorming, as right now there is no one representing our interested in Scottsdale. But I *think* our first step to getting any traction in the Preserve is to make noise and get attention around issues that can't be opposed - littering, horse poo, trail destruction. Maybe after we get a foot in the door, we can actually start having an influence in planning. If not, we still make people uncomfortable with our agitation, which is at least some kind of influence.

    Let's hear your feedback! keep it productive and civil.

  34. #34
    Don't believe the Hype...
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    Having Horse problems? I feel for ya son...I got 99 problems but HorseShit aint one
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    In a simple word: no.

    Horse shit does not bother me one bit.
    your avatar is a skunk, you like stinky things
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  36. #36
    Meatbomb
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    I'm curious which trails you ride that has so much poop on it to get this much attention?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    allow me to throw out this idea: it has been purported that we bikers have little or no influence in the Mcdowell Preserve, because we don't attend meetings or participate as an organized group. Setting aside for a moment the bias (or perception thereof) against us by the Preserve Commission and many stewards etc, what other tools are available to us to be heard as a unified user group? I know for a fact city planners sometimes read this board, that lots of work gets done by conversations and correspondence, that 1000 signatures on a petition will get attention, and that meetings at least partially are an antiquated ritual which today merely extend the illusion of access to decision-makers but which in reality accomplish very little during the actual meeting.

    Still with me?

    Petitions are a way for decision makers to realize "there is an issue". They don't require an organized group to represent us, they don't require we show up. They make noise, and make land managers realize the natives are restless and need to heard. I don't believe there is any better way, at this time, for us to make noise and draw attention to ourselves as a user group with needs. We have no umbrella organization or people willing to be the point-of-contact for any such group. So we can either act in an amorphous but semi-directional manner together, or we can keep eating horse shit from the Preserve Commission.

    Horse poo bothers me very much when its wet, dont care when its dry. Us having no influence whatsoever, being an afterthought and the least prioritized user group, bothers me very much. So we might as well become a splinter that throbs, i dont think we have anything to lose, by saying en masse "horse poo is nasty". Its a good issue, because no one in the Preserve Commission can deny that its nasty or at best unsightly, that litter is bad. No one can deny the double-standard for equestrians, and at the same time equestrians are the most vocal and powerful anti-bike group out there. In short, this is an issue that those in charge will hopefully nod at and say 'yes, we agree with some of what you say'. Issues like this where we complain en masse are a first step to the Preserve Commission recognizing that there are a lot of us, with the potential to organize.

    i'm kinda brainstorming, as right now there is no one representing our interested in Scottsdale. But I *think* our first step to getting any traction in the Preserve is to make noise and get attention around issues that can't be opposed - littering, horse poo, trail destruction. Maybe after we get a foot in the door, we can actually start having an influence in planning. If not, we still make people uncomfortable with our agitation, which is at least some kind of influence.

    Let's hear your feedback! keep it productive and civil.
    Just to make sure I understand: Reader's Digest version is you're recommending that mt bikers come up with a cause to show our solidarity? Does that pretty much sum it up?

    If so, I personally think there are other "causes" we could support other than horse shit. In fact, many of those who have commented said they are more upset with dog shit and blue bags. How about requiring dogs wear diapers, since many dog owners obviously can't seem to either pick after their dogs? Or if they do, they leave the bags on the sides of the trail?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  38. #38
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    If you're looking at causes that all of "us" agree on, if not poop, how about horses on wet trails. I hate when a previously smooth trail ends up looking and riding like moonscape from horse hooves. It takes a long time to undo the damage.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    you're recommending that mt bikers come up with a cause to show our solidarity?
    exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    How about requiring dogs wear diapers
    picking up dog poo is already mandated.

    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    horses on wet trails.
    better, but unlikely to offend people like fresh poo. Nor likely make the Preserve Commission as uncomfortable as discord between bikers and equestrians. Successful populist politics is about division.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    exactly



    picking up dog poo is already mandated.



    better, but unlikely to offend people like fresh poo. Nor likely make the Preserve Commission as uncomfortable as discord between bikers and equestrians. Successful populist politics is about division.
    Personally, I feel you're barking up the wrong tree, and run the risk of causing greater division. I think there are other causes and ways to show our solidarity than to target other trail users.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Personally, I feel you're barking up the wrong tree, and run the risk of causing greater division. I think there are other causes and ways to show our solidarity than to target other trail users.
    Please elaborate, with the goal of getting the Preserve Commission to account for the preferences of non-beginner riders.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Please elaborate, with the goal of getting the Preserve Commission to account for the preferences of non-beginner riders.
    Not sure I understand your question. Can you explain what you mean by "goal of getting the Preserve Commission to account for the preferences of non-beginner riders?"
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Not sure I understand your question. Can you explain what you mean by "goal of getting the Preserve Commission to account for the preferences of non-beginner riders?"
    go back through this thread, and more so through concurrent threads on Brown's Ranch. any fresh ideas would be welcome in the conversation.

  44. #44
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    The reason equestrians are not required to pick up after their horses is that they are designated as 'pack' animals and are not under the same regulations as our dog friends. Dogs are designated as 'domesticated' animals and their owners are required to pick up after them. I don't care about horse poop that is a few days old, but if I encounter some fresh steaming pile of crap, I make sure to avoid it!

    I say go forward with your petition, but I think there is a better chance of it snowing tonight than this being taken seriously by preserve management.

  45. #45
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    No!
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  46. #46
    Meatbomb
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    Poop is not something I will become polarized enough by to sign a petition ... with my real name.

  47. #47
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    I guess it's a sign of the times. Can't even get people to agree to dislike stepping in shit. We're sunk...

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjkm View Post
    The reason equestrians are not required to pick up after their horses is that they are designated as 'pack' animals and are not under the same regulations as our dog friends. Dogs are designated as 'domesticated' animals and their owners are required to pick up after them. I don't care about horse poop that is a few days old, but if I encounter some fresh steaming pile of crap, I make sure to avoid it!

    I say go forward with your petition, but I think there is a better chance of it snowing tonight than this being taken seriously by preserve management.
    based on your experiences thus far, any new ideas for bikers getting considered as more than red-headed stepchildren?

    thanks for sharing the horse rules. Seems reasonable back in the day, seems silly now. I wonder if a rescue dog or sight assist dog can drop bombs at will?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    I guess it's a sign of the times. Can't even get people to agree to dislike stepping in shit. We're sunk...
    It's not that I prefer stepping in it. Besides ones interest in avoiding horse crap! What do you really see will be gained by getting in a riff with those that ride horses on the same trails as us?
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  50. #50
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    Many of the Rangers in the Preserves are equestrians having recently reluctantly given up their horses , I doubt they would support the horseshit mandate.

  51. #51
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    shit piss **** **** ********** mother****er and tits

    wow! almost half of them

  52. #52
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    Oh Horsey poo - I do hate it when it is fresh, but I also understand that the amount of bacteria, toxins, etc. is negligible as compared to dog poo and it is actually beneficial in most instances to the surrounding plant life. I would rather see effort spent on DH only trails in the city, a bike park at the bottom of SoMo or honest to God, even a lift to get to the top.

    Imagine if we had a sweet DH course? We could host a World Cup race in the winter.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrincipalRider View Post
    or honest to God, even a lift to get to the top.
    What if we just pay the homeless to ride/walk the bikes up for you, and kill two birds with one stone?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  54. #54
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    i'm sure they know damn well how much liquor they could buy if they just rode off and hocked it

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    What if we just pay the homeless to ride/walk the bikes up for you, and kill two birds with one stone?
    any fresh ideas about how to show and use solidarity wrt influence in the McDs?

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    If you're looking at causes that all of "us" agree on, if not poop, how about horses on wet trails. I hate when a previously smooth trail ends up looking and riding like moonscape from horse hooves. It takes a long time to undo the damage.
    I really have to agree with this. Horse crap on the trails is an temporary annoyance. It comes and it goes. When horses chew up a wet trail it latest it lasts for miles and months. Until the ground gets dry enough that is pulverized and turns to soft fine dust which has its own problems.

    To me the poo is a lesser concern.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    any fresh ideas about how to show and use solidarity wrt influence in the McDs?
    Nope
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Nope
    oh Jeff, you rarely add anything productive to threads.

    seriously, inventing a conflict with equestrians was just an idea i floated, and based on the feedback not a useful idea. But if we have no plan at all, nothing will change in the McDs, and we'll continue getting ho-hum trails while all the rock gardens and mild elevation changes are untapped, Scottsdale has money to burn but none dedicated to bikes. Maybe that is just how it is. I'm going NRing and jumping tonight en route to Tequila Tree up in Windgate, so maybe its just easier to keep doing what I'm doing illegally and forget about it.

  59. #59
    sprocket
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    do you pack out your poop when you are bikepacking?

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly View Post
    do you pack out your poop when you are bikepacking?
    I do. It especially sucks after eating a burrito and pizza hut.

    Seeking feedback on a proposed petition to require equestrians to bag their poo-blue_poo.jpg
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    oh Jeff, you rarely add anything productive to threads.

    seriously, inventing a conflict with equestrians was just an idea i floated, and based on the feedback not a useful idea. But if we have no plan at all, nothing will change in the McDs, and we'll continue getting ho-hum trails while all the rock gardens and mild elevation changes are untapped, Scottsdale has money to burn but none dedicated to bikes. Maybe that is just how it is. I'm going NRing and jumping tonight en route to Tequila Tree up in Windgate, so maybe its just easier to keep doing what I'm doing illegally and forget about it.
    I've been giving this some (unfortunately very little) thought. I have not read that Brown's Ranch thread, so I don't know all the issues. And I understand the struggles it takes to get noticed and heard by the decision makers. I'm really good at identifying the deficiencies. But bad about solutions. I would suggest that if you want to show solidarity, you ("you" as in the collective we) do so by working *with* another group, not *against.* But sounds like you might have come to that realization.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  62. #62
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    I would sign. I would also be happy if they would just kicked the shit off of the trail.

  63. #63
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    CB - I don't want to see you give up your quest for better riding in the McD's. I really don't have any new ideas at this point on the things that seem to be bumming you out. From what I gather;

    1. B - lines in the rocks in the current Browns Ranch section
    2. Better trails that challenge a more skilled rider in the second & third section (yes kids, we get 50 built this winter and 50 more built NEXT winter
    3. Horse Poop

    You need to pick your battles, and I suggest 1 & 2 are the ones worth fighting. The equestrians are not going to change, and in fact, you will start seeing blue shirts on horseback as they now have an organized equestrian patrol. I have seen blue shirts on horse back before, but they were just your normal stewards who have horses. Not sure if you will see any difference........

    Most of you know I am a patroller, and tis the season for new orientations and new blood in the ranks. It is as involved as you want to make it, and Carole (posts here time to time) is as passionate of a voice for MTB as you will find. Growing the ranks of MTB patrol only lends to legitimacy in the eyes of the COS. Although I patrol, I don't agree with a few things, so don't think I am a 'yes man' for any of the organizations. If I were king for a day, we would have hours that extend into the night vs. closing at sunset!!!

    Anyway CB - I got nothing new for you, other than keep thinking of creative ways to show the value of the MTB community. Threads like these are the most useful on mtbr IMO.




    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    oh Jeff, you rarely add anything productive to threads.

    seriously, inventing a conflict with equestrians was just an idea i floated, and based on the feedback not a useful idea. But if we have no plan at all, nothing will change in the McDs, and we'll continue getting ho-hum trails while all the rock gardens and mild elevation changes are untapped, Scottsdale has money to burn but none dedicated to bikes. Maybe that is just how it is. I'm going NRing and jumping tonight en route to Tequila Tree up in Windgate, so maybe its just easier to keep doing what I'm doing illegally and forget about it.

  64. #64
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    Phoenix riding is so last week and dumb....why does this forum have to be all about PHX? SoAZ is where it's at!

  65. #65
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    So...complain about horse poop + ??????? = Scottsdale building more trails for advanced riders?

    I'm really not sure I understand the steps in between. I guess things along those lines seem to work for people like Al Sharpton, but I'm not sure the general public is going to believe that mostly white males riding around the dirt in our free time on $2000+ dollar bikes makes us some sort of victims......

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by motochick View Post
    I brought this up to a horse rider at a Prescott ride, this is what she said to me, "These people can barely get on their horses, let alone get off and back on several times a ride without assistance. Never gonna happen"
    Not really an equestrian if they can't get off and then back on their horse!

  67. #67
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    Okay- after a few days of this post floating around like a turd in a Circle K toilet, I finally got lit enough to comment on this ridiculous post.

    Dude (OP-CB)- it is horse shit. Hey it is cool to write shit on here. But really, horse shit. CB- I am pretty certain you ride trail that is not often frequented by the masses, and you must encounter cow poo. Other than eating at steak, how do you combat that? Equestrian effluent is usually just hay, alfalfa, maybe some oats and some intestinal goo. Not at all like dog dookus or human feci. (Not scientific words, just fun words to say). I would rather a push to have horse riders abide by a law that mandates them to be in control of thier beasts. Kinda like horse cops, who can ride that effer into a riot. Train your fooking pig to behave. We get pissed at dogs who strain against an owners leash, yet we treat horse riders like John Wayne (Hey-don't get me wrong, JW is a bad mother, but he always had control of his horse). Your petition is almost as stupid as anything that ever came from "Mekka Sedoner". You have always been rational on here or a dikkhed- tell me this post was a joke.
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  68. #68
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    Don't like the smell of fresh horse shit and breathing shit dust once it powders.

    Don't know if anyone else mentioned but the signs at the preserves already state pet owners to remove waste, or some thing to that effect.



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    27-12 Animal waste.
    A. Wastes from animals and pets must be removed and disposed of to prevent creation of a nuisance or health and safety hazard. *1

    B. Small animal waste from typical domestic pets such as dogs and cats must be placed in a plastic bag, securely tied and placed in a solid waste container. *1

    C. The City may collect large animal waste from animals such as horses and livestock. If the City collects such waste, it may charge a separate fee and require use of an alternate collection method. *1

    D. All animal owners and custodians must immediately clean up and properly dispose of wastes left by their animals on any public street, alley, gutter, sidewalk, right-of-way or park. *1

    (Ord. No. G-4623, § 1, adopted 6-23-2004, eff. 7-23-2004; new style in use as of 8-1-2011)

    Date of Addition/Revision/Deletion - Section 27-12
    *1 Revision on 11-28-2012 by Ordinance No. G-5756, eff. 1-18-2013
    Last edited by broncbuster; 11-09-2013 at 06:39 PM.

  69. #69
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    Yes. Absolutely, I'd sign it.

    Interesting how some of the trolls posing as mountain bikers are still proliferating the old school moutain biker negative self image. They appear to project a collective sense of low self esteem. Why should mountain bikers be afraid to politely ask that ALL users be treated with the same respect?... Remember leave NO trace?

    Since land managers are supposed to be acutely aware of environmental problems and work to mitigate them I suggest you focus there.

    Every once in a while Whoahey hits the nail on the head. All you need do is hike through Jack's Canyon to see patches of Bermuda grass outcompeteing the native species. And the argument about the differences in composition of feces is ridiculous. Artificial nitrification of soils and introduction of non-native micro-nutrients and micro-organisms is not in keeping with the best practices and policies of our national land management agencies. Ask yourself the question, Why does the Nature Conservancy not permit dogs or horses in many of it's preservres?

    I think it's fair to say that equestrians will feel that we mountain bikers are being inflamatory and pissing in the wind. That said, if they love the land and value their pristine trail experience so much, then maybe they can learn to be more empathetic... Like they would like us mountain bikers to be when we approach them on a trail... in turn they could reciprocate so that we might have a pristine trail experience too.

    Just because it has always been this way doesn't mean it is good or right.
    Viva la revolucion!

    Good points Cholla.

    CB

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    Unlike dog poop, I don't believe horse poop poses any threat to humans. I really don't see this petition going anywhere and I would really hate to sign a petition that causes more hindrance on horse owners. Next thing you know, hikers will be doing the same against MTBers. It's all about freedom and knowing how to steer your bike.
    Killing it with close inspection.

  71. #71
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    how about a protest,, 'no native species in horse feces' has a catchy ring to it

  72. #72
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    I would not sign this petition.

    While I agree that equestrians have a few double standards that are a bit irking, ..the poo itself doesn't bother me.

    Major props to anyone outputting effort to better the biking community in any way. However, if we raise a big stink about something that really isn't anything more than a stench and eyesore that's expected on trails, it may just cause our community a loss of credibility.

    Always a few things to consider :-/



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  73. #73
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    The ordinance already exists, hello...

    Enforcement is what's needed.

  74. #74
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    I figured asking someone who actually rides horses what would be involved if they were to police after themselves. Basically, they would have to ride with a pitch fork and/or shovel, as well as a step it something to get back on the horse. This comes from someone whom has been horseback riding professionally for 15 years.

    Obviously a solution fair to all users is ideal, whatever that may be. Maybe a volunteer day where horseback riders clean up the trail?
    “Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world.”
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by tysonnemb View Post
    I figured asking someone who actually rides horses what would be involved if they were to police after themselves. Basically, they would have to ride with a pitch fork and/or shovel, as well as a step it something to get back on the horse. This comes from someone whom has been horseback riding professionally for 15 years.
    A good horse and fit person shouldn't need a step to get off and on. It's not even necessary though, cause they could get a shit sack. Bun-Bag - Horse manure catcher or diaper. Sagle, Idaho

    The tough thing is educating the horse people that horse poo isn't the best thing for our environment. I was at a trailhead where a horse owner was kicking all the horse poo from 4 horses out of the trailer, about 15 yards away from a main wash that flows into Oak Creek in about 1/4 mile. Go ahead, PHX people, say it's just a Sedona problem but that shit is going to be your drinking water soon...
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by tysonnemb View Post
    I figured asking someone who actually rides horses what would be involved if they were to police after themselves. Basically, they would have to ride with a pitch fork and/or shovel, as well as a step it something to get back on the horse. This comes from someone whom has been horseback riding professionally for 15 years.

    Obviously a solution fair to all users is ideal, whatever that may be. Maybe a volunteer day where horseback riders clean up the trail?

    I would be good with just throwing it off the trail as far as possible. A folding army shovel is all they would need.

    A step to get back on, joking right?

  77. #77
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    what's wrong with using a step? you know how expensive it would be to install a liftgate?

  78. #78
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    Perhaps a rope ladder.

  79. #79
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    Most equestrians, when confronted, will tell you horse manure is good for the soil. They fail to understand what it's like to have fresh horse manure sprayed onto your bike frame, your water bottle, and your face, as you ride over it at speed.

    Some equestrians will tell you it is difficult and burdensome to dismount their horse to remove manure from the trail. Others use language like we were here first so you bikers should adapt.

    I cannot post it but I have a photo of a sign that reads "ATTENTION EQUESTRIANS please cleanup after your animals".

    Horse manure is the breeding ground for flies. Hundreds of thousands of flies.

    I grew up on a farm with several horses. We all wore cowboy boots. Another name for those boots is "shit-kickers". It means they are great for kicking horse manure off a trail.

    There seems to be several steps involved is achieving what Chollaball is asking for. You need to get land managers to recognize the problem. You need to seek solutions that might be incremental. You might first seek to get signage to educate equestrians, letting them know they are responsible for removing their animals manure from the trail. The best compromise might be to settle for them kicking it off the downhill side of the trail, and not having to bag and remove it like dog manure.

    Once you achieve even a small victory and get signs placed near trailheads, you send the message to equestrians that mountain bikers are a larger user group and will not be ignored. If mountain bikers are required to follow rules of the trail, so should equestrians. The more equestrians who complain and violate the new requirements, the more obvious it will be to land managers that equestrians are unwilling to play by the rules. Land managers will then feel more comfortable adding additional restrictions to equestrians, like no horses on trails until 48 hours after rainstorms, or equestrians allowed on only certain trails on certain days. It's possible and it begins with just one small victory.

    Chollaball is on to something here. Give him your support and all mountain bikers stand to benefit.

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