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  1. #1
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    Ricochet Trail - Flagstaff

    Putting together a route for a ride in Flag this weekend. We were considering going up Ricochet to Freidiein Prairie as part of the route.

    What is going up Ricochet like and does anyone know what condition the trail is in?
    Marty

  2. #2
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    You mean Overlook? There will be some HAB in that direction. The trail is a bit beat up and the unsustainable sections haven't fared too well. Still pretty fun though.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

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    Marty, I rode from camp area across pipeline to an overlook and Newam trail intersection and ended up on Azt....great route abv 8000'. I will show you on map when I get to camp tonight.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobZona View Post
    Marty, I rode from camp area across pipeline to an overlook and Newam trail intersection and ended up on Azt....great route abv 8000'. I will show you on map when I get to camp tonight.
    That's a better way to go. After Newham and the Quintille Connector you can jump on F. Prairie Rd before dropping down Quazimoto/West Secret/Double Agent. It's only 75 yds or so the road. Overlook is a hoot but you'll miss quite a bit of singletrack by accessing F. Prairie at the west Pkng area (the TH to Weatherford and Kachina Peaks trails). You used to be able to drop down to the old Secret trail there on a connector trail but that's all been closed because of an owl pack in the area.

    If you've got the time and are deadset on Overlook you could climb Weatherford Trail and then after the Kachina Peaks junction doubleback on Overlook. Then drop down to Secret.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I am talking about Ricochet (Overlook) trail that is on Dale's map.
    Marty

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcoplea View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I am talking about Ricochet (Overlook) trail that is on Dale's map.
    Don't stir those ashes too much, some of the embers are still hot.

    "Dale" has been promising to revise his map to reflect the real names of our trails for, well, about a century now.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
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  7. #7
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    Sorry. I did not realize that asking questions about "your" trails in Flag was "stirring the pot."

    Thanks for correcting me, rockychrysler.
    Last edited by mcoplea; 06-24-2013 at 11:17 AM.
    Marty

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcoplea View Post
    Sorry. I did not realize that asking a questions about "your" trails in Flag was "stirring the pot."


    Thanks for correcting me, rockychrysler.
    Sorry, but i gotta agree. Most of us do not appreciate a valley dweller renaming our trails and posting the illegal ones on the net. Just my.02
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Sorry, but i gotta agree. Most of us do not appreciate a valley dweller renaming our trails and posting the illegal ones on the net. Just my.02
    Yep, I'm not a fan either. Not cool Dale. Not cool man.

    I felt irritated right when I saw the title of this thread.

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    Gotta chime in on this one. I know of at least 5 Flagstaff locals that all have different names for the same trails in Flagstaff. If the locals don't know the names of the trails, then how is "Dale" supposed to know?
    Where is a non local to go to get correct information? One place is the web, where Dale's map can be found. If there is another source of trail info, could you please post it here instead of giving a guy crap for asking for it?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotth72 View Post
    Gotta chime in on this one. I know of at least 5 Flagstaff locals that all have different names for the same trails in Flagstaff. If the locals don't know the names of the trails, then how is "Dale" supposed to know?
    Where is a non local to go to get correct information? One place is the web, where Dale's map can be found. If there is another source of trail info, could you please post it here instead of giving a guy crap for asking for it?
    This is an age-old argument for all riding locales when off-the-grid stuff is posted on-line. As I recall there were quite a few Sedona locals none too happy with Traildoc and his map. Anyway, this is water under the bridge. Dale caught a lot of grief a couple of years ago and changed most of the names on his map with the exception of Riccochet. He renamed Onceler Superfly but that's a moot point since most of it is now part of AZ trail or obliterated. The main issue with Dale was that he was somewhat unrepetent, didn't make an effort to learn the names and simply gave them his own names. Most us felt that he didn't get a vote. First dibs goes to the trailbuilder.

    As for multiple names there's really not that much confusion. Jedi and Sheepherder are called one or the other. West Secret has several names. The FS prefers to call it West Secret for simplicities sake while most locals rue the loss of the real Secret Trail and call it other names like Double Agent or Quazimoto. There were actually two people who did the routing on West Secret and neither one wanted to name it. One works for the FS and probably doesn't care. The other trail that has several names is the parallel trail to lower Moto. Some call it Easter Island, Old F**ker, or Rock-n-Roll. It's a social trail and never really had a builder. It was burned in by equestrians who accessed it via Magdalena and then mtn bikers started riding it.

    It shouldn't be too surprising that locals take pride in their trails and pride in the names. Trails have a history and it's part of local lore. For example, Dogfood Engineer.
    Last edited by rockman; 06-21-2013 at 06:51 PM.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcoplea View Post
    Sorry. I did not realize that asking a questions about "your" trails in Flag was "stirring the pot."

    Thanks for correcting me, rockychrysler.
    told ya. don't start stirring the ashes until you're sure the fire is dead-out.

    and this one ain't.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
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  13. #13
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    Is there a ricochet on or near the trail? No.

    Is there a lookout on or near the trail? Yes.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler View Post
    told ya. don't start stirring the ashes until you're sure the fire is dead-out.

    and this one ain't.
    Again, thank you for putting me in my place. Please accept my apology for asking a question about your local trails and not knowing all the proper names.
    Marty

  15. #15
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    I'm not giving the op any sh#t, I am just irritated with Dale the map maker.

  16. #16
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    Ricochet Trail - Flagstaff

    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I'm not giving the op any sh#t, I am just irritated with Dale the map maker.
    It is the most readily available and accurate map out there, oh and by the way it is free. I'm not trying to score coolness points by coming back to the valley and trail-name dropping, I just want to have a general idea of how to get from point a to point z and hit all the points in between without getting lost. And Dale's map does that for a lot of people.


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  17. #17
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    Popcorn, popping...

  18. #18
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    Reading the angry Staffers comments leaves me thinking it's the names, not the fact they're mapped causing the angst. Do they not use traildock's maps when they ride in Sedona?
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Reading the angry Staffers comments leaves me thinking it's the names, not the fact they're mapped causing the angst. Do they not use traildock's maps when they ride in Sedona?
    No, they know all the Sedona trails. The maps were for tourons.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by el poseur View Post


    No, they know all the Sedona trails. The maps were for tourons.
    I'll remember that if they ever grow a pair(s) and venture down to Phoenix.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    I'll remember that if they ever grow a pair(s) and venture down to Phoenix.
    Why the hell should any same person wasn't to do that?
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    This is an age-old argument for all riding locales when off-the-grid stuff is posted on-line. As I recall there were quite a few Sedona locals none too happy with Traildoc and his map. Anyway, this is water under the bridge. Dale caught a lot of grief a couple of years ago and changed most of the names on his map with the exception of Riccochet. He renamed Onceler Superfly but that's a moot point since most of it is now part of AZ trail or obliterated. The main issue with Dale was that he was somewhat unrepetent, didn't make an effort to learn the names and simply gave them his own names. Most us felt that he didn't get a vote. First dibs goes to the trailbuilder.

    As for multiple names there's really not that much confusion. Jedi and Sheepherder are called one or the other. West Secret has several names. The FS prefers to call it West Secret for simplicities sake while most locals rue the loss of the real Secret Trail and call it other names like Double Agent or Quazimoto. There were actually two people who did the routing on West Secret and neither one wanted to name it. One works for the FS and probably doesn't care. The other trail that has several names is the parallel trail to lower Moto. Some call it Easter Island, Old F**ker, or Rock-n-Roll. It's a social trail and never really had a builder. It was burned in by equestrians who accessed it via Magdalena and then mtn bikers started riding it.

    It shouldn't be too surprising that locals take pride in their trails and pride in the names. Trails have a history and it's part of local lore. For example, Dogfood Engineer.
    Some Sedona locals got together with a map company and made available a map with all current legal trails. It is available in town and I believe online. Another person made an online map for smartphone use. Is something like this available for Flag? If so, could someone post a link for the OP?
    Three trails listed with multiple names is in fact confusing....

    Still want to ride sometime this week?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotth72 View Post
    Some Sedona locals got together with a map company and made available a map with all current legal trails. It is available in town and I believe online. Another person made an online map for smartphone use. Is something like this available for Flag? If so, could someone post a link for the OP?
    Three trails listed with multiple names is in fact confusing....

    Still want to ride sometime this week?
    Absolutely, but the stakes in the game may have just changed. Looks like it's just north of the pipeline and south of Friedlein Prairie Rd. There's a spotter plane on it and a bunch of Hot Shot crews heading that way. bummer.

    edit to add. contained. whew. Small wildfire near Freidlein Prairie contained
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ricochet Trail - Flagstaff-peaks-fire.jpg  

    Last edited by rockman; 06-22-2013 at 08:58 PM.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Why the hell should any same person wasn't to do that?
    Not kosher having a pair up in Staff?
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    I'll remember that if they ever grow a pair(s) and venture down to Phoenix.
    I have been to the Phenis airport a few times. I can't forget that smell as you get close to the city and all of that traffic! I'm good.

    Pheonix riders, don't take this seriously, I'm just messing with Mrwhlr. Your riding looks killer.
    Last edited by raisingarizona; 06-23-2013 at 10:07 AM.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I have been to the Phenis airport a few times. I can't forget that smell as you get close to the city and all of that traffic! I'm good.

    Pheonix riders, don't take this seriously, I'm just messing with Mrwhlr. Your riding looks killer.
    Oh by all means keep it up. I like it when people resort to tossing an entire city's riders under the bus over little ole me.

    The smell you experienced was fresh air mixing with patchouli oil.

    Now's a great time to visit again, since we're not on fire!
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Oh by all means keep it up. I like it when people resort to tossing an entire city's riders under the bus over little ole me.

    The smell you experienced was fresh air mixing with patchouli oil.

    Now's a great time to visit again, since we're not on fire!
    Way too hot for me. Maybe next winter tho, if I have time and it's not snowing.

    It's been incredible up here so far this summer. We have dodged the bullet so far on big fires but it's very dry and dusty. I don't ride much in June, I often use this time to do some hiking/exploring until we get the rain. I won't even ride in the middle of the day if the highs are much over 80. I'm getting old I guess and I ride for pleasure and not to suffer. I guess my balls are small.

    And who is throwing a whole city's riders under the bus? Come on guy..........

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Absolutely, but the stakes in the game may have just changed. Looks like it's just north of the pipeline and south of Friedlein Prairie Rd. There's a spotter plane on it and a bunch of Hot Shot crews heading that way. bummer.

    edit to add. contained. whew. Small wildfire near Freidlein Prairie contained
    Damn! Fuggin idiots at the campground....quite frankly, I think they need to close those down. When you advertise a "campsite"....you attract the kind of folks that want a "campsite"...which means idiots that think they need a fire, before the summer rains, when it's blowing 25 sustained, gusting to 35.

    I have no problem with folks camping there per se...just not the kind of camping where you can drive up to the throat of the mountain where any spark just runs right up the slope with no room or time to get it contained. Very scary. Glad this got nipped in the bud and hope someone get's slapped around for this.

  29. #29
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    Ricochet Trail - Flagstaff

    From this mornings ride:
    Ricochet Trail - Flagstaff-imageuploadedbytapatalk1372014927.621368.jpg

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Way too hot for me. Maybe next winter tho, if I have time and it's not snowing.

    It's been incredible up here so far this summer. We have dodged the bullet so far on big fires but it's very dry and dusty. I don't ride much in June, I often use this time to do some hiking/exploring until we get the rain. I won't even ride in the middle of the day if the highs are much over 80. I'm getting old I guess and I ride for pleasure and not to suffer. I guess my balls are small.

    And who is throwing a whole city's riders under the bus? Come on guy..........
    Above 80, refuse to ride, reminds me of another Staffrican I've met.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  31. #31
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    Whlr, you can't help but involve yourself in any sort of Flag drama. Trowin' jabs at everyone, guess the heat is getting to you. Come up and enjoy this cool weather, a good bike ride would do you kindly

  32. #32
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    I think Mrwhlr is an @ssh0le like me....never to be taken seriously without a good dose of white russian in your belly......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Air Bud View Post
    Whlr, you can't help but involve yourself in any sort of Flag drama. Trowin' jabs at everyone, guess the heat is getting to you. Come up and enjoy this cool weather, a good bike ride would do you kindly
    I find people put out better with a slight chip on their shoulder - kind of like angry make-up sex.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  34. #34
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    Status on the fire?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  35. #35
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    Ricochet Trail - Flagstaff

    Enjoyed my visit / ride immensely today. Thanks for sharing such great trails with us southerners 😊

    Ricochet Trail - Flagstaff-imageuploadedbytapatalk-hd1372047079.565228.jpg


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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Status on the fire?
    contained as of 13:30 on 23 June.

    FLAGscanner » Blog Archive » #fsWILDFIRE Press Release on Freidlein Fire south base of San Francisco Peaks #Freidleinfire
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
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  37. #37
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    Looks like it may not be long until they go back to the restrictions of past years...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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  39. #39
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    It's going to get hot this week. 90 to 95 here in Flagstaff!

    Come on rain!

    Mrwhlr is by far the most entertaining poster on here. He is practically the only reason I check mtbr any more.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    It's going to get hot this week. 90 to 95 here in Flagstaff!

    Come on rain!

    Mrwhlr is by far the most entertaining poster on here. He is practically the only reason I check mtbr any more.
    True dat, the bro has more stoke, beta, and cool trip reports than this whole forum combined.
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  41. #41
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    So... Did Ricochet turn out to be worthwhile? Is Ricochet as fun and flowy as everybody says it is??

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by timothyclaus View Post
    So... Did Ricochet turn out to be worthwhile? Is Ricochet as fun and flowy as everybody says it is??
    The Overlook (Ricochet trail referenced on Dale's Map) is not too fun and flowy these days. Loose and rocky.

    I know there has been a lot of controversy over "Dale's Maps" and some of the names and that "secret trails" shown on the map. Here is my 2 cents...

    Dale makes great maps from all over the state. He posts them on the web for outdoor enthusiasts to enjoy for free.

    Are all of the trail names correct? Well, that depends on who you are talking to. Flagstaff has so many trails with no "official name" and the trail names change based on who is telling the story: Old timers, middle aged or the younger crowd.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by timothyclaus View Post
    So... Did Ricochet turn out to be worthwhile? Is Ricochet as fun and flowy as everybody says it is??
    one cannot describe the character of a non-existent trail.

    however, as pertains the overlook trail, flowy is not a word that immediately springs to my mind. fun, on the other hand, is quite apt.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
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  44. #44
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    First of all they are not "YOUR" trails. They are public and open to everyone! Second they are not illegal to ride them (if not posted closed), only illegal to build them without permission from the land manager. I make my maps mostly for personal use and post them on the web for others to use to aid in getting to know the trails systems that have not been mapped by professional mapping companies. I usually adopt the local trail names if I know what they are. I have found that a lot of non-system trails have different names by various groups of riders.

    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Sorry, but i gotta agree. Most of us do not appreciate a valley dweller renaming our trails and posting the illegal ones on the net. Just my.02

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    First of all they are not "YOUR" trails. They are public and open to everyone! Second they are not illegal to ride them (if not posted closed), only illegal to build them without permission from the land manager. I make my maps mostly for personal use and post them on the web for others to use to aid in getting to know the trails systems that have not been mapped by professional mapping companies. I usually adopt the local trail names if I know what they are. I have found that a lot of non-system trails have different names by various groups of riders.
    Still pleading your case huh?
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  46. #46
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    nope. the 'manifest destiny' excuses won't work. you cannot disregard our native ties to this land, despite your delusional, morally superior self perceptions of what's right in the absence of formal signage. we were here first, we found, hand-crafted and named the trails first. our trail-naming nomenclature matters, is far superior, and likewise lightyears more creative than yours. it will survive your feeble foreign, imperialist attempts to override it. so there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    First of all they are not "YOUR" trails. They are public and open to everyone! Second they are not illegal to ride them (if not posted closed), only illegal to build them without permission from the land manager. I make my maps mostly for personal use and post them on the web for others to use to aid in getting to know the trails systems that have not been mapped by professional mapping companies. I usually adopt the local trail names if I know what they are. I have found that a lot of non-system trails have different names by various groups of riders.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
    http://rockychrysler.com/

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    All this over the NAME of a trail? Seriously? Wow. It's some letters put together to denote a route through dirt. Dirt that is currently forest service land.
    I have heard the story about the map, the wrong names, and how the map would not get changed. If you care so much about the names of trails in Flagstaff, then get together with some buddies, and make a correct map. If not, then help someone out that asks about trails on a public forum that was designed for such a thing. The OP actually did some homework on the web, found a map, then asked the local forum for clarification. Don't give them a bunch of **it. Even if they use the incorrect name for a trail that few locals ride.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotth72 View Post
    All this over the NAME of a trail? Seriously? Wow.
    The best part of this saga is that it continues after so many years. Dale could retreat, make the update in TOPO, and update his website, all in about 90 seconds. But then we'd all be deprived of this perennial discussion why a trail with an obvious physical feature is named after a bouncing bullet.

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    As an Arizona NATIVE, it is my GOD given right to call things whatever I like. So, where on Squaw Peak is this Ricochet? My browser blocks that map site as porn.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotth72 View Post
    All this over the NAME of a trail? Seriously? Wow. It's some letters put together to denote a route through dirt. Dirt that is currently forest service land.
    I have heard the story about the map, the wrong names, and how the map would not get changed. If you care so much about the names of trails in Flagstaff, then get together with some buddies, and make a correct map. If not, then help someone out that asks about trails on a public forum that was designed for such a thing. The OP actually did some homework on the web, found a map, then asked the local forum for clarification. Don't give them a bunch of **it. Even if they use the incorrect name for a trail that few locals ride.
    K, the name thing is indeed pretty silly. Dale's maps are da bomb. I've used them when I've ridden in PNX and Tucson. Note, however, that it is only the Flag map that has illegally built, non-system trails on it. There's the rub. The internet has changed things but 10 years ago times were a bit different. Secret handshake-type trails and word of mouth kept things under wraps. Dale's map essentially does the same thing Traildoc's maps did for Sedona: in the FS view of things it's advertising and promotion of unsanctioned trails. Trails that are beloved to locals and visitors alike. The end result is:

    1) out-of-towners get to hit the off-the-grid stuff with a minimum amount of effort by clicking a mouse, and 2) with increased notoriety (for example, Sedona) trails are either adopted or closed by the land manager.

    The climate is a bit different in Flag but a popular trail called Flying Fish was closed when a certain PNX shuttle crowd starting hitting it hard. The existence of that trail had been tolerated by the FS for more than two decades. Maps like Dale's that advertise the location (even if the intent is to help visiting riders) lead to closure.

    Whatever, it's only part of the equation but is it not that surprising that locals might raise a little fuss about the existence of said maps?
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

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