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  1. #1
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    Question about National

    I've never ridden National before, but I think I've got my courage worked up to try it. I see National referred to as upper and lower. What's the difference? Which one will you hit first if you start out at 48th St and go west?

    I hear a lot of guys say you should go up Mormon and down National. Easier? More fun?

  2. #2
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    Depends on who you talk to. For me, Upper National is the portion between Buena Vista to the "split" area where National and Mormon converge. Lower National is the portion between that "split" and the fireroad. It's really all one trail.

    I typically prefer to climb National rather than Mormon, but it's significantly more technical. Bring your lungs/legs.

  3. #3
    live long and huck
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    I agree with Blatant. Climbing National is more "interesting". It's all tough, you're riding a bicycle up the side of a mountain. One advantage to going up Mormon is the connector to get you down to National, it's a quick but fast and fun little run. I'm going up there today, noon30ish, up Natty and down Geronimo, road to East Loop (or Javelina if I still have legs left).
    Low and slack.

  4. #4
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    E- you have got the chops to ride National. Last time I was there was on the 29SS with some of the NCC guys last summer. We climbed up Mormon and down all of National. Big-O got a lot of video that day. I need to do it on the FS bike before I get rid of it though, just to see what its like.

  5. #5
    live long and huck
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    I was on that ride with you cstem, you tore it up, especially considering what you were riding. I'm heading up in an hour, gear up!!
    Low and slack.

  6. #6
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    +2.

    Personally, if you're going up, I'd recommend Mormon up, National down.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  7. #7
    K3N
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    cstem- what gears you run while climimbing nat on a 29ss?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by K3N View Post
    cstem- what gears you run while climbing nat on a 29ss?
    When I took mine up there I was running 32x20. I felt like I climbed the same stuff I do on my 1x9. Rigid as well. Now that was different experience. A little extra finesse was needed.
    Today's the day I eat bikes.

  9. #9
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    Walk what you don't like E. I have done the Mormon up National down route a few times. It is a very enjoyable route. National is a step up on the tech side compared to the normal stuff we have ridden together at PMP.

    Might even add the section to the waterfall (head west at the M to N junction) before heading back down National. It adds a couple more nice little tech spots.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  10. #10
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    Jeez, what a bucket of fail I had today.

    First, I decided to try to "climb" National. I never had so much HAB in my life. I'm like the HAB pro now. Okay, it was a little better past the waterfall. I went to just before Buena Vista before turning around.

    Then, I noticed it was getting dark. I figured trying to fight my way back down National without the aid of proper depth perception would be a bad idea, so I decided to take Mormon, not Mormon Loop, like I was supposed to, Mormon. That's just as bad as National, and it was really getting dark fast by then.

    I finally get to the bottom of Mormon, walking most of the way. I don't know the lines, and it's pretty much too dark to make the judgment calls on the fly. Where da fook am I? Oh, okay, I'm off 24th St., but my truck is at 48th. So I ride on the street back to 48th St. I figure it's got the least "get lost" potential. I made it back, but damn, what a failure of a trip.

    I'll go back, but I definitely need a group that knows what's up. That self guide stuff didn't work today.

  11. #11
    live long and huck
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    What time did you head out? From Pima Canyon TH? I was putting my stuff away about 4:30ish, silver Pathfinder with a rack on back. Yeah, the National climb is not easy. I went up National to Buena Vista, took Geronimo down, but instead of going through the Boy Scout camp I went on the other Geronimo that nobody rides. Now I know why nobody rides it.
    Low and slack.

  12. #12
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    Oh damn! That sounds so much like my 1st trip out there. I also rode Mormon because the trail book said it was easier than Nat'l, which is true IF you stay on Mormon Loop The 24th Street descent is pretty harsh, even on a full DH rig.
    Desert Sunset Calls/Upward, Pain, Perseverance/Welcome Solitude

  13. #13
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    You didn't ride Mormon down.... You rode 24th st.... My most favorite trail btw! Next time go up Mormon so you know how to get back down!

  14. #14
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    Yes, you rode 24th, which is my favorite trail out there.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    What time did you head out? From Pima Canyon TH? I was putting my stuff away about 4:30ish, silver Pathfinder with a rack on back.
    Were you some old guy playing with a cell phone? I pulled in right as you were leaving.

    Oh, yeah, and I broke the skewer that holds the thru axle on my fork in place. Brushed up against a rock and it snapped off. The axle itself is fine, but it kept unscrewing. I just needed to do an endo or two and it would have been a perfect trip.

  16. #16
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    E...we ride out there all the time. That's my backyard. Up morm, down nat. up nat, down morm, up/down both...it's all good. We did a up/down morm to javelina the other night under the moon...no lights I've been riding these trails for 4 years now and they keep getting better and stay challenging. I HaB a ton on Natty and a little on mormon, but less and less each time out. come out for shuttles to get the full tour with some fast guys Keep at that stuff and it'll pay off in dividends.

  17. #17
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    I'm hopefully going to ride there tomorrow at 4:30. I'm thinking of going up national as far as light permits and then down national. Momon sounds like something I'd normally prefer to ride up, but I figure since it will be my first time there riding up national and seeing what I'll be coming back down will be a good thing.

  18. #18
    live long and huck
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy_E View Post
    Were you some old guy playing with a cell phone?
    Um, yeah. Had to let my wife know that I made it down in one piece. I don't wear my bifocals riding, so it took me a while to send a simple message.
    Low and slack.

  19. #19
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    "24th Street" is in fact Mormon Trail, that's where the confusion always comes in. Here's a nice spot for the official maps of SoMtn...
    http://phoenix.gov/webcms/groups/int...hprintwest.pdf

    http://phoenix.gov/webcms/groups/int...hprinteast.pdf
    Desert Sunset Calls/Upward, Pain, Perseverance/Welcome Solitude

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy_E View Post
    Oh, yeah, and I broke the skewer that holds the thru axle on my fork in place. Brushed up against a rock and it snapped off. The axle itself is fine, but it kept unscrewing. I just needed to do an endo or two and it would have been a perfect trip.
    Aside from the skewer mishap, how'd the TBLTa work out for you?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cycljunkie View Post
    Aside from the skewer mishap, how'd the TBLTa work out for you?
    It's a good bike. I can tell I'm getting more and more confident on it. If you gave one to somebody with skills, he could do horrible, horrible things on it. I'm definitely only going to do National again with some guys who know what's up. There's a lot of bad news potential out there, for sure.

    Oh, and as far as the skewer goes, I was looking at a replacement online and those damn things are $55 for a complete one, or $30 for the bolt. I got a $2 piece of threaded rod at ACE and cut it down.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by K3N View Post
    cstem- what gears you run while climimbing nat on a 29ss?
    I ran a 32x18 then- but in my current physical condition would run a 20t max. 20t just makes it "un-fun" when the trail slants down at all.

  23. #23
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    Nothing wrong with a little romantic hike with your bike! I want to go, but I just put my HiFi up for sale/bid and don't want to break it. Can't give away the details but got a little plan to build up a pretty sweet 29SS. Anyone got any BB7 calipers they want to sell?

  24. #24
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    I'll ride it with you Sleazy,

    I rode (and hiked) it this evening from Pima lot: East loop out around the golf course and broke it off to the climb up the golf course hill after the wash and down towards the apartments (don't know the name of that section), hooked up with Beverly Canyon by the apartments and took it to the 46th St parking lot, through the lot to Javelina and up that to Mormon loop, up Mormon loop to National, then down National to the fire road and back to truck.

    I ran out of daylight without lights, but if I had em', I'd have taken Mormon loop back up and return back down Javelina to the lot then Beverly back to east loop return or any of those other trails around there.

    Good ride!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottnAZ View Post
    I'll ride it with you Sleazy,

    I rode (and hiked) it this evening from Pima lot: East loop out around the golf course and broke it off to the climb up the golf course hill after the wash and down towards the apartments (don't know the name of that section), hooked up with Beverly Canyon by the apartments and took it to the 46th St parking lot, through the lot to Javelina and up that to Mormon loop, up Mormon loop to National, then down National to the fire road and back to truck.

    I ran out of daylight without lights, but if I had em', I'd have taken Mormon loop back up and return back down Javelina to the lot then Beverly back to east loop return or any of those other trails around there.

    Good ride!
    I just Youtubed most of that. Definitely looks like more the kind of stuff I'd feel good about.

    Lemme know, man. You know my schedule isn't exactly "tight" these days.

  26. #26
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    I wanna do national west to telegraph and back on classic going east.... I may want to wait for my FS bike before I get out there and die

  27. #27
    PMP,TAN,LAUNDRY
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    Do I need to go out there and show you! If you did 24th down then national is cake.
    Bender to AZDog: I'm not the best person to give advice on not riding!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdog View Post
    Do I need to go out there and show you! If you did 24th down then national is cake.
    show him what? how to properly bail on a pedal ride at SoMo. Don't think That 575 of yours since you bought it has ever hit Somo dirt has it? Go back to your SS road, poser!
    .Hoog just texted me and said it's "Surface area to G2 tangential force vector ratio optimization. "

  29. #29
    PMP,TAN,LAUNDRY
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    I need sixty to come back so we can do somo rides again. It's not the mountain, it's the company.
    Bender to AZDog: I'm not the best person to give advice on not riding!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdog View Post
    Do I need to go out there and show you! If you did 24th down then national is cake.
    I walked 24th down. Lugging that gargantuan bike of mine, in the dark, fairy shoes slipping all over the boulders. Then, I had to road bike it back to 48th St. My happy face was nowhere to be found.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdog View Post
    I need sixty to come back so we can do somo rides again. It's not the mountain, it's the company.
    Oh that's right girls travel in packs. SoMo GF line crew
    .Hoog just texted me and said it's "Surface area to G2 tangential force vector ratio optimization. "

  32. #32
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    damn, burn...
    Quote Originally Posted by azdog View Post
    I think he was born around the time of the Chernobyl fallout which would explain a lot.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by KavuRider View Post
    damn, burn...
    Deep down he is really hurt that I refuse to ride with him or eat at the same table at lunch
    Bender to AZDog: I'm not the best person to give advice on not riding!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdog View Post
    Deep down he is really hurt that I refuse to ride with him or eat at the same table at lunch
    WOW, little ride smack talking on MTBR. Things must be looking up around here.

    No one sits next to him at lunch. He thinks he is at the buffet and everyone's plate is his.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    WOW, little ride smack talking on MTBR. Things must be looking up around here.

    No one sits next to him at lunch. He thinks he is at the buffet and everyone's plate is his.
    I prefer Eazy Es company. His touch is more gentle.
    Bender to AZDog: I'm not the best person to give advice on not riding!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdog View Post
    I prefer Eazy Es company. His touch is more gentle.
    Imagine that!

    Hope to be back out next week. But will leave the gentle touching to Easy.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdog View Post
    I prefer Eazy Es company. His touch is more gentle.
    Quote Originally Posted by azdog View Post
    I think he was born around the time of the Chernobyl fallout which would explain a lot.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by KavuRider View Post
    You're jealous as you have been replaced.

    I am feeling better. Get your 50lbs bike cleaned up and come out and pedal with me. I'm sure I will be slower and need more breaks than usual. We can have a good laugh at the expense of AZDog's roadie adventures.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdog View Post
    I prefer Eazy Es company. His touch is more gentle.
    I do have the soft hands of a man who habitually avoids physical work...

    Oh, and for the record, that loop that ScottinAZ posted is a lot more fun and ridable than the mystery tour I went on the first time.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by KavuRider View Post
    Could have not said it any better!!!!
    .Hoog just texted me and said it's "Surface area to G2 tangential force vector ratio optimization. "

  41. #41
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    Soon as I get my new bike built up I am in. Just got an email that my KOM was beat on Mormon Steep section. Devastraded...

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    I was on that ride with you cstem, you tore it up, especially considering what you were riding.
    That's why we never invited him back. He made us look bad on a SS

  43. #43
    live long and huck
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    That's why we never invited him back. He made us look bad on a SS
    bigO, did you by chance see my night Natty video? You gotta try it, it's a whole different world up there in the dark.
    Low and slack.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    bigO, did you by chance see my night Natty video? You gotta try it, it's a whole different world up there in the dark.
    I saw them but I gotta be honest I couldn't watch much of them since you can't see anything outside the narrow spotlight of your lamp. But, all of us have mentioned at some time or another the need to run National at night. Would definitely be a different ball game.

  45. #45
    live long and huck
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    I saw them but I gotta be honest I couldn't watch much of them since you can't see anything outside the narrow spotlight of your lamp. But, all of us have mentioned at some time or another the need to run National at night. Would definitely be a different ball game.
    Granted, the camera didn't catch anything outside of the beam, but the actual seeing was almost as bad as the video. As I stated, I was using my 250 lumen back up light which was very inadequate for the nature of National. But it was a ton of fun, no crashes, and definitely on the list of things to do again. Ironically, the climbing seemed quite a bit easier in the dusk/dark.
    Low and slack.

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