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  1. #1
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    NRA Pit on the brink?

    I'm going to go ahead and throw this out there for the masses: This morning while padding up in the parking area by the pit I was approached by a Forest Service employee. (I'm going to leave her nameless for now, but I have her name) First, she was really nice. So don't get the wrong idea. This isn't a rant, just news. She said that they had new trails lined up for the area and before they put them in they need to get rid of all the illegal jumps, so spread the word that we're going to get rid of everything out there. She mentioned another FS person who was going to put together a crew to help tear it down. I got the impression that she didn't know the scope of the building out there, and she framed everything in terms of "if you want these other trails built, we're going to have to get rid of those illegal ones." The quote of all quotes was when she said, "I know it's fun, but it's not part of the system."

    I'm not sure which little animated face to put here...

  2. #2
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    This one works for me...
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  3. #3
    pedaller
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    How about building these "other trails" first before eliminating existing trails/jumps? Somehow I see $$$ for building trails drying up fast as this economy continues to flounder... The cuts will have to come from somewhere and unfortunately trails are not exactly considered necessities...

    It would be a big shame to see the NRA pit destroyed LONG BEFORE any additional trails are created/built.

    Anyone know anything about a timetable for additional trails? That area could support a nice expansion of the current trail system.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  4. #4
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    They are on the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg
    How about building these "other trails" first before eliminating existing trails/jumps? Somehow I see $$$ for building trails drying up fast as this economy continues to flounder... The cuts will have to come from somewhere and unfortunately trails are not exactly considered necessities...

    It would be a big shame to see the NRA pit destroyed LONG BEFORE any additional trails are created/built.

    Anyone know anything about a timetable for additional trails? That area could support a nice expansion of the current trail system.
    The uh whaddya call it survey has been done for the lower areas, trails laid out. There was a push to get the NRA area legitimized, but the effort has not been followed up (to my knowledge) and I would guess that the wood is not helping.

    CW is the main point of effort out there. I'd like ot be able to help through AGRO and MBAA but I don't have the time without dedicated individuals playing by the rules. It will be a sad day when the dozers come through.

    Anyone want to help with a proposal for a local skills area in the city? I need to put together a legit proposal but am moving out of state.

    Volunteers and good point people will be need to keep it rolling. I know there are enough interested folks but the land managers need a narrow point of contact, not a big unorganized group. With AGRO and MBAA putting their weight behind these efforts there may be a chance for a legit skills area.

  5. #5
    parenting for gnarness
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    i rode the other trail today. BFD! its not bad, but more XC stuff like Wild Horse and Big Rock. It gets you about .75 miles up the road, which has an enormous shoulder\bike lane and is an already well-used route.

    Can a petition or something get going? tearing down something unique that lots of people enjoy for a redundant connector what defines a system trail other than the whim of the land manager? seems like taxpayers opinions should count for something.

  6. #6
    dirt visionary
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    We could start a petition I suppose as I know we could get 200+ sigs easy ......Funny thing is they say so they can make a connector that is already done???? I think its a way for the same group that worked on the connector to get our single track for xc use only .


    Also if we leave the area Shooters will take it back over no doubt.

  7. #7
    dirt visionary
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    Hey!!! I got 2 ideas One we keep the parking lot full giving them no room to get through ......AND we play jump huggers.......If the tree hugger can do it we should be able to do the same

  8. #8
    Shred...it's the new drug
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    Should we chain ourselves to the jumps/burms in hippie fashion? The wasted hours in tearing down the place could be put towards something positive like building sweet singletrack, not death and destruction of thousands of hours of dedication. Whats our next step? We need not stand in the wayside to let this happen, we need to fight for our right to shred!

  9. #9
    dirt visionary
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    I will make a call Monday to Debbie Becker and express the cummunities concern .......I will also let her know we have at least 100 riders that will go to bat for the area.....Plus I will also let them know what kind of traffic that will be missed if things do get torn down .....NRA has brought 100 times more traffic out using the land for recreation. Which is far better than the land being used by shooters every weekend all day.

  10. #10
    dirt visionary
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    we could also flood the FS office off Higley with our plea calls

  11. #11
    Shred...it's the new drug
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    I got my chains and tie died shirt ready...

    Seriously, clock, can you express the fact that we the pit riders have taken care of the area, cleaned up most of the trash, kept out shooters, partiers, all around riff raff and created a positive area for advancing skills and healthy recreation. Also it has drawn riders from other trails (somo, hawes, etc.) on the weekends to clear those up for hikers and other recreationalists.

  12. #12
    dirt visionary
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    Yup and I will also express the fact that if the pit is torn down that 5-10 other places will see the same thing happen . I can almost guarentee that people will start building in any area they can to get their fix.... mcdowells, estrella mountains and cave creek not to mention our new location nearby .

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    I will make a call Monday to Debbie Becker and express the cummunities concern .......I will also let her know we have at least 100 riders that will go to bat for the area.....Plus I will also let them know what kind of traffic that will be missed if things do get torn down .....NRA has brought 100 times more traffic out using the land for recreation. Which is far better than the land being used by shooters every weekend all day.
    FYI that's who I talked to.

  14. #14
    dirt visionary
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    Thats why I threw her name out . I knew right away by your description it was her.. She is/was on our side but has to do what the person above her says. She's a cool lady.

  15. #15
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    Bummer... Nothing more to say.
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  16. #16
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    What's the history of the NRA pit? It sounds like it was a shooting area that that somehow turned into a gravity playground..and if the jumps get torn down the shooting will start back up? Neither use officially approved from the sounds of it. Where did the shooters go?

    Not trying to stir sh1t, the NRA thread is amazing , but since I like to ride and like to shoot this is interesting. Hope it works out for all involved.
    bikes, guns, dogs....perfect

  17. #17
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    The pit is the old shooting range which has now moved South approx 3 miles. There is a legal range for anyone who feels the need to get in some target practice, but it's not free. So, you know the rest of that story...
    Desert Sunset Calls/Upward, Pain, Perseverance/Welcome Solitude

  18. #18
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    The future?

    I never thought I'd be sneaking around doing "illegal" activities at the ripe old age of 41 (!?) but it looks like that's exactly how it's going to be.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    NRA has brought 100 times more traffic out using the land for recreation. Which is far better than the land being used by shooters every weekend all day.
    For those of you that live in the area, are locals aware of their options? Would locals rather have recreational shooters out there near their hiking area or mountain bikers? Awareness with locals calling in could do more good for your cause. Perhaps some leaflets on cars with a handy dandy phone number or email.

    I'm not a gravity fan, but I dislike recreational shooters and the crap they leave behind. A gun in the hand of a stupid person is an accident waiting to happen.

    Is another trail heading south of the pit for less than a mile worth the cost of leveling the pit or even a necessity? The road is 100 feet away!!!

  20. #20
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    Well I'll do whatever I can to help. . . which isnt a lot, but in terms of professional services if we need to put together any sort of written entity or presence, or anything to represent US as a whole on paper I am your whore (but a free one). Sounds like a challenge in which the AZ riders need to step up and represent themselves in the most respectable manner possible.

    I know its easier said than done but what if we offer to help build?

    Seems like the FS or party at hand needs to be educated about the situation, if we do what we can to enlighten them on the treasure that is NRA perhaps there will be more leniency towards their future plans for the area?

    . . . IMO (which is next to worthless)

  21. #21
    dirt visionary
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    There was no one riding out there before we started digging . It had been dead for what 8 months or so with no traffic and there was only a handful of jumps and a 20 second line . Why becuase the FS tore down what was there......I would rather have our hard work torn down knowing TONS of people have had a blast, progressed , learned to jump and even gotten into DH/FR simply because of the pit . And I deffnately would not give up the FRIENDSHIPS and the people I have met out at the pit due to it becoming popular.

    Instead of all the hard work and only a small handful of people knowing about it like it was when the oldschoolers kept it to themselves . .....The pit has had its jumps/ladders ect torn down 4 times now it just part of a cycle.

    Anyways i have put in more time than anyone into the pit and I am not worried about the whole deal ...If they tear it down then thats what happens. Its not like freeriding in AZ is going to end Yeah it sucks but I am sure some things would get rebuilt just like any other time they have come out to plow things. The key this time is the quanity with almost 100 features....They got their work cut out for them especially since we love to use lots of rock and big rocks


    I am greatful that it has lasted over a year now considering they knew about our first work before anyone on MTBR or FRW did as we hadn't let you folks in on our secret at the time.

  22. #22
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    I'm with Clock. I found the pit by scouring Google earth for a gravel pit somewhere on Usury pass, than driving up and down that road and checking every pull-off because no one would give me directions. I was new to the area and I understood why no one trusted me.

    You can't keep a good thing down, and keeping it illegal and secret is the wrong approach, IMO. There is no reason why the valley shouldn't have a legit freeride skills area.

  23. #23
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    i don't think the fs realizes the repercussions that will trickle down if one of the best freeride spots in az gets destroyed. So many illegal trails will sprout up out of peoples sheer desperation to get their freeride fix. Just tell me what I can do to help your cause clock! It sounds like we fr\dh riders need to take the initiative to save the pit.
    Madspeed always prevails!

  24. #24
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    Who is in charge of the trail expansion planning for the area and when is their next meeting? We all need to be their and have a designated proffessional spokesperson to express our concerns and our input for the area. It is all of us who ride and should have a say in what their plans are for the future and to be a part of it. We can help to build the new trails and fight to keep all or most of what has been already built there. The cities build skate parks and bike parks in the city, why can't we have some fun out in the desert?

  25. #25
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    The good thing is we have more builders. If they destroy it, it will just make me want to build more. It's too good to die.

  26. #26
    AKA shitbird
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    I am willing and eager to help out in any way I can. If there was ever a time legitimize what's out there at NRA, it is now. We should not have to feel like criminals to enjoy our sport. The Valley has legitimate recreation areas for everything including BMX,motocross, skating, rockclimbing, paintballing, hell even RC car racing. What legitimate areas do we have for freeriding? Hell, I can't even think of one real dirt jump that is 100% legal in all of AZ, seriously!

    What I'm trying to say is that we should really consider having serious discussions with the Forest Service regarding the future of LEGAL freeriding at this location. I have thought about this for some time but never wanted to bring unwanted attention to the area by being proactive. We are now at the point where if we don't do something these trails/jumps are gone. Maybe the FS service tells us "no, hell no" but at least we tried.

    Sure we can find other places to build but those will end up plowed over too, just like the Playground, let's focus on some permanancy here.

    I have some ideas in mind to get this rolling but I don't want to step on the toes of those who put so much time into building these trails and already have relationships with the Forest Service. With that being said I am willing to take on any role, big or small in making something happen and will make myself available but I don't want to put forth any effort until I have the support of the people who who made NRA what it is today. If the builders/riders decide that we are better off remaining quiet and someday rebuilding I respect that decision too. I'm here to help if you want it.
    JRA

  27. #27
    Gold it's the new Pink!
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    Quote Originally Posted by locoriggs
    Who is in charge of the trail expansion planning for the area and when is their next meeting? We all need to be their and have a designated proffessional spokesperson to express our concerns and our input for the area. It is all of us who ride and should have a say in what their plans are for the future and to be a part of it. We can help to build the new trails and fight to keep all or most of what has been already built there. The cities build skate parks and bike parks in the city, why can't we have some fun out in the desert?
    I totally agree with loco. Here are some of the steps we need to do.

    First gather all the names and contact information of those riders willing to be involved in this project. Then gather the information we have into one spot. As a group make a decision if and how much we want of that information publicly posted. **There is a lot of information that should not and can not be posted in a public forum if we want to be successful in this project.**

    First tasks:

    -What information do we have and what information do we need to gather?

    -Indentify groups and key figures that we need and which of those are willing to help us.
    -Gather contact information of these people and organizations

    -Gather business support: I of course will have Kore Bike’s support as well as the support of my family’s businesses.
    -I am sure Nanner can get Global Bikes to sign on.

    I also propose a name for us as a group Arizona Free-ride Association or AFA. Plus a logo like the American Freestyle Association of the 80’s would be killer. ;-)

    I am willing to be a part of this to help make sure we are successful.

    Crimson

  28. #28
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    Man this stinks like the diaper I just changed. The pit is part of the reason I chose to live way out Mesa way.

    Recently I have talked to City of Mesa officials on creating a bike skills park and right now with no money for Parks & Rec it wont happen. She told me if I can prove I will be able to secure insurance and the ability to maintain the park we could then work on a lease deal. I have contacted a few other parks around the country to get thier cost info.

    Crimson there is a group already formed on a google group forum AGRO. It doesn't get as much traffic, so it is still a little loose. But we do need to be more pro active as a whole or wait for the FS to tear down what they will and use it as an opportunity to build it better (no offense to those that have shoveled but you know what I mean).

    I'm in for whatever I can do.
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  29. #29
    Gold it's the new Pink!
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    Matty,

    Thanks for bringing up Argo. I think I am a member if it was the group that started up last year or so. I was going to ask about if it was still around.

    Eabos,

    You have outlined a lot of good points in your post. I had written my post from earlier across my day at work and then saw yours after I posted mine up. I totally agree we need to be careful not to damage any relationships that riders have with the FS and or parks departments. We do however need to be proactive in this project. I fully respect the riders who have put time, money and effort into making NRA what it is but if they are not willing or able for what ever reason to protect NRA, then allow those of us who are willing and able to do just that. We are after all are not only protecting a very unique riding area but also their hard work.

    Later
    Crimson
    Last edited by Crimson; 12-07-2008 at 07:45 PM.

  30. #30
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    Yeah Right...

    Quote Originally Posted by tgiles
    i don't think the fs realizes the repercussions that will trickle down if one of the best freeride spots in az gets destroyed. So many illegal trails will sprout up out of peoples sheer desperation to get their freeride fix. Just tell me what I can do to help your cause clock! It sounds like we fr\dh riders need to take the initiative to save the pit.
    As a Forest Service Employee I should be careful what I say on these boards, but this is the same attitude that will be causing the Tonto to shut down thousands of miles of OHV roads and trails. The repercussions are simple. The Government is a big machine and can be a real pain. I would encourage dialouge utilizing an existing entity such as MBAA or AGRO as land managers love to use Acronyms and an organized effort will get more accomplished....

    As with all things there is always politics. So here's the scoop:

    1. Any trails that are newly constructed should have all NEPA work completed prior to construction. Dialouge begins well before construction. This is the reason that no new trails are built as a whole. Environmental lawsuits are S-C-A-R-Y to the land manager in charge (also known as the "Ranger"). The "Ranger" at Mesa is "Art Wirtz", not Debbie Becker.

    2. We often look through our freeride bubble without looking at other user groups, public interest, and environmental concerns. These things have to be addressed BEFORE trails are built. I am all for new spots be it legal or illegal, but make sure you realize that ILLEGAL is just that and will never last for long. That's part of the deal.

    3. I think there is plenty of room for discussion with the FS but it takes a co-ordinated, professional approach with a non-aggressive, eco-sensitive mindset to make things fly with the honchos.

    I could go on for hours since I've worked for the Tonto for 19 years. I still remember the rush I got hitting the A line all the way from the top and will continue to ride out there as long as I can.


  31. #31
    dirt visionary
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    I am up and all for any help that everyone can dish out.........It would be nice to save most of NRA but I feel A- and B-line are main targets as of now . Up the hill is a different story but in any event we need many Mature strong indivduals with some resources to help make the move.

    The relationship we with the FS is not major in any sense so don't worry about stepping on our toes. Our relationship is based on they know about our activity and as long as we kept the trash and bad incidents down they wouldn't have to shut us down . But back when we had our pow wow it was never mentioned that A and B-lines were going to be affected by the new connector.

    pm me if you feel the need.

  32. #32
    dirt visionary
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    Hey Dave thanks for the info ...Sorry I forgot to mention Debbie is Arts ranger and is below Art ... She's easy going but Art isn't as easy to work with . I wish we could use all the other Successful FR in other FS areas across the us as examples along with the Tonto District in Globe seeing that they allowed us to do minor improvments on Sixer.

    Eabos.....I have some good paper work outline the way 2 other MTB organization made FR'ing a possiblity in their areas.

    Lookup the dirt corps ,black rock oregon and plainfeild bike park. I have their outlined guidlines and proposals that they used .

  33. #33
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    You guys may want to think about using the AGRO acronym in your dealings. It doesn't bother anyone here (it's how you roll ) but you're stepping into the political world with this and such things have to be considered. Something like the Politically Correct Arizona Bunny Huggers and Bike Jumping Tea Society...

  34. #34
    I'm Lazy, So I Shuttle
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    Just let us know how we can help. I am down to do what I can. I also know a guy who is pretty high up on the ladder in the FS.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you'll crash.- Julie Furtado

  35. #35
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    what about contacting some of the manufacturers to help with "grants" or something? im sure if we had a legit and legal place to break their bikes, they would be glad to sell us replacements. maybe email all the shops and get some support from them. cactus, DNA, adventure, landis, global. i mean this is their backyard too. goddam government. just legalize it!!

  36. #36
    dirt visionary
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    IMBA/KONA have teamed up and giving lots of grants for fr/skills parks. I have lots of good info on paper about that.

  37. #37
    dirt visionary
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    Here is a project the dirt corps is working on.

    http://www.dirtcorps.com/Projects/Sn...1/Default.aspx

    and Plainfeild bike park

    http://www.plainfieldbikepark.com/

  38. #38
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    THanks Clockwork. I've been looking up some info as well and there are alot of opportunities out there but a few challenges/obstacles as well. Check your pm's in a few.
    JRA

  39. #39
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    More .02

    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    I have some good paper work outline the way 2 other MTB organization made FR'ing a possiblity in their areas.

    Lookup the dirt corps ,black rock oregon and plainfeild bike park. I have their outlined guidlines and proposals that they used .
    Chris, I checked these out, and these are good projects, but I think one thing everybody is missing is that these are State or City land bases. The Federal Gov't. is just a real pain in the kiester to deal with. Too many middle management types that have

    1. No clue,
    2. No life
    3. No common sense.

    Althought I could probably be accused of all the above by a group of users I don't understand

    Typical Federal Government response goes something like this.... :
    Let everybody come out and ride ATV's/Dirtibkes/Rails/Rhinos/Jeeps (throw Mountain bikes in there) anywhere they please (cough, Cough, Sycamore), build new trails, new lines, new experiences with no Forest Service Oversight, No implementation of environmental rules & regulations, and most importantly No overall Managment Plan for the area, No public scoping.

    ....Fast Forward 10 years.....Land is trashed, environmental groups are aiming sights on OHV users and FS. Middle mgt types are scared, clueless, and don't understand the users, the riding experience, most have never been on some of these trails, they never developed a management plan, didn't have the money, knowledge or resources to deal with the problem when it started. Logical choice=C shut er down and write tickets. Control what you don't understand. Oh --- and also Charge the others who are legal so you can build a bigger non-working machine

    To be honest it's not even the Forest Services Fault. The high power environmentalist groups don't give a damn about the land, they just want to fight for the sake of the fight. I don't know about most riders out there, but I wouldn't want to sit on a stand being deposed by a high paid CBD attorney about why I didn't take action to stop random raping and pillaging of the land.

    My recommendation for trying to get a lasting plan in place with the Fed's would be to go through AGGRO or MBAA as a spearhead to come up with a detailed map and plan for the area. Look into getting some pro-bono Environemental research done to mitigate any issuees with SHPO (state historical preservation offices), ADEQ (drainage), Maricopa County Dust control. etc..etc..etc..
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  40. #40
    dirt visionary
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    How about this one Dave . Its on FS land

    http://www.imba.com/resources/freeri...k_success.html

    http://www.brmba.org/

    their Management plan has some REALLY GOOD info also.

    http://brmba.org/docs/BlackrockBuild...2004June21.pdf
    Last edited by clockwork; 12-08-2008 at 08:42 AM.

  41. #41
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    This would be a good model

    "Just outside Salem, Oregon, in the rural logging town of Falls City, lies the Black Rock trail system. This killer freeride area, located on a 1,000-acre tract of State Forest Land"

    This would be a good model to work from for IMBAA or AGGRO. STATE FOREST is different than FEDERAL FOREST LANDS. I would assume that alot of the same rules apply, but the bigger the machine the bigger the Hoops.

    Definitely I believe there is a possiblity for something good to happen, maybee a skills pit within the shooting pit? smaller area, good use of existing environmental dammage, easy access for emergency situations etc. A good plan that is well thought out and environmentally/legally sound is the way to at least get an open ear.

  42. #42
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    Fwiw...

    i contacted the City of Mesa's Mayor & Council hotline. I know its not Mesa's land, but figured it was worth a shot. They promptly redirected me to the Forest Service.

    When Rex Griswold was a Councilman in Mesa, he talked about plans for extending Twisted Sister over the ridgeline, which made me think Mesa had some influence. oh well...

  43. #43
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    They should work in some trails that are more recumbent friendly. We are a very under served group. I think this NRA area would make a great dedicated recumbent off road spot.
    "Pour water in the tea pot and it becomes the tea pot. Be water my friend." - Bruce Lee

  44. #44
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    What about Table Mesa Area??

    The Table Mesa Recreation Area north of Phoenix just off of I-17 is another area that may be open to build freeride trails. The BLM has just started their NEPA Scoping process and held a couple of public meetings in November to get input from the public on how to use the area. In talking with BLM staff, they are not against building freeride trails in the Table Mesa area. So now is the time to get you input into the NEPA process if you would like to build some freeride trail out there. I went to the public meeting and will post the information and comments forms later when I find some tome to scan the info.

    It's basicaly the same distance from central Phoenix to Table Mesa road as it is to get to the NRA pit from central Phoenix. There is definitely some steep terrain out in the Table Mesa area that could be used to laid out for some fun stuff.



    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    How about this one Dave . Its on FS land

    http://www.imba.com/resources/freeri...k_success.html

    http://www.brmba.org/

    their Management plan has some REALLY GOOD info also.

    http://brmba.org/docs/BlackrockBuild...2004June21.pdf

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruppguts
    I'm going to go ahead and throw this out there for the masses: This morning while padding up in the parking area by the pit I was approached by a Forest Service employee. (I'm going to leave her nameless for now, but I have her name) First, she was really nice. So don't get the wrong idea. This isn't a rant, just news. She said that they had new trails lined up for the area and before they put them in they need to get rid of all the illegal jumps, so spread the word that we're going to get rid of everything out there. She mentioned another FS person who was going to put together a crew to help tear it down. I got the impression that she didn't know the scope of the building out there, and she framed everything in terms of "if you want these other trails built, we're going to have to get rid of those illegal ones." The quote of all quotes was when she said, "I know it's fun, but it's not part of the system."

    I'm not sure which little animated face to put here...
    I'm a certified tree-hugging environmentalist who will never freeride, BUT,

    This forest service plan to tear down this playground is a complete waste of time and effort. The area has already been defiled by the gigantic pit, and is braided with all kinds of trails and washes. It seems perfect for your kind of trail-building activity.

    Probably the best use of our trail dollars in the area would be a nice paved parking lot to improve the access and also for some kind of boundary to be put around the area so that the building doesn't grow without bounds. Maybe a big sign to enter and use at your own risk, too. (They could require a Tonto pass and make some bucks, too.)

    I'm sure that the forest supervisors lie awake at night wondering when some kid's parent is going to sue because of an accident that happens out there. But if the public demands such an area, then they're off the hook.
    "Thank you, God, for letting me have another day"
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  46. #46
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    I absolutely wish we could have something like hikerdave is suggesting, I'd be right in line for an annual pass. Would something like that ever happen? Probably not, due to it being logical and fairly straightforward. Sorry about that, I'm just naturally pessimistic.
    Desert Sunset Calls/Upward, Pain, Perseverance/Welcome Solitude

  47. #47
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    Shame ........as 95% of everyone I have seen at the pit is indeed over 18 hell most are over 20 by a good shot.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Shame ........as 95% of everyone I have seen at the pit is indeed over 18 hell most are over 20 by a good shot.
    Popular misconception that all FR/DH/DJ'ers are "punk kids".

    Most only in spirit, not age

    This is a real bummer to hear, I hope something works out, if only to preserve all the hard work.
    Quote Originally Posted by azdog View Post
    I think he was born around the time of the Chernobyl fallout which would explain a lot.

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    I am willing to throw in with MBAA and AGRO...

    I just sent Debbie an email to see if there is any possibility of getting the area adopted as the entire Hawes system was years ago. Hawes was also started as a wildcat trail system by an avid rider named Kieth. As BWdave says, it is important to come to the table as a single group, not a scatter shot of "dudes" threatening to build elsewhere or whatever.

    The main thing we need to see is the elimination of wood stunts (I recall that was a concern with the FS), beer cans, trash, butts and signs of stupid lines. I will do everything I can to give the wieght of these large groups have as constituents for our public servants. I think that liability is an issue that can be addressed ( I have not read the attached proposals yet). I know the main concern at the AGRO trash day planning meeting was that the FS did not want to be called up there for a complaint. I think that has been well handled other than the items above.

    I had hoped to get help on a website for AGRO, but maybe keeping it a closed group for planning and discussion is a better way to go. Public forums are open and sometimes the slag that goes around is counterproductive.

    I have also been asked to produce a proposal for the Holbert Pit skills area by the park and need help organizing that. I think there are many here and with AGRO/MBAA that would like to see skills areas accepted as legitimate attractions rather than see wildcat lines and backlot session areas.

    With NRA, Holbert, and Table Mesa areas proposed, there should be a huge user base that would show land managers there is responsible need for such amenities.

    What else we will need is local represntration by an individual that can meet with land managers as I am moving to NorCal after xmas. I will still stay involved by email and phone but we need more than that and forums to move forward seriously. Who can be there Eabos?

    I am copying the AGRO invite line below (you have to join Google Groups and confirm to get email there) and I encourage everyone to join MBAA for the $20 that will help fill the membership with more than just XC racers. MBAA is about access and we need members.

    http://groups.google.com/group/arizo...s_invite?hl=en

    www.mbaa.net

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by KavuRider
    Popular misconception that all FR/DH/DJ'ers are "punk kids".

    Yeah when the truth is it's all Punk Adults. Look at you guys and your tats and nose rings. Sheesh.

    Maybe if we explained how much a DH FR rig costs they might rethink their misconceptions of punk kids.

    Like Hiker Dave I too was thinking that a sign to play at your own risk "Man made stunts in the area". We could take it upon ourselves to add difficulty markers, Blue, Green, and Black Diamond to the various spots. Also have either the anual pass or day pass to park there. It would suck to pay but would definately be worth it.

    I didn't see it before but is there any time frame for the cleaning of the trails?
    Got Daytons on the Motha Ship - Cube

  51. #51
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    Took Friday off and I plan to ride as much as I can. Hopefully they'll still be there.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greffster
    Just let us know how we can help. I am down to do what I can. I also know a guy who is pretty high up on the ladder in the FS.
    Who do you know? I have written a letter to Debbie, so we will see if anything comes of it.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhykhelle
    I just sent Debbie an email to see if there is any possibility of getting the area adopted as the entire Hawes system was years ago. Hawes was also started as a wildcat trail system by an avid rider named Kieth. As BWdave says, it is important to come to the table as a single group, not a scatter shot of "dudes" threatening to build elsewhere or whatever.

    The main thing we need to see is the elimination of wood stunts (I recall that was a concern with the FS), beer cans, trash, butts and signs of stupid lines. I will do everything I can to give the wieght of these large groups have as constituents for our public servants. I think that liability is an issue that can be addressed ( I have not read the attached proposals yet). I know the main concern at the AGRO trash day planning meeting was that the FS did not want to be called up there for a complaint. I think that has been well handled other than the items above.

    I had hoped to get help on a website for AGRO, but maybe keeping it a closed group for planning and discussion is a better way to go. Public forums are open and sometimes the slag that goes around is counterproductive.

    I have also been asked to produce a proposal for the Holbert Pit skills area by the park and need help organizing that. I think there are many here and with AGRO/MBAA that would like to see skills areas accepted as legitimate attractions rather than see wildcat lines and backlot session areas.

    With NRA, Holbert, and Table Mesa areas proposed, there should be a huge user base that would show land managers there is responsible need for such amenities.

    What else we will need is local represntration by an individual that can meet with land managers as I am moving to NorCal after xmas. I will still stay involved by email and phone but we need more than that and forums to move forward seriously. Who can be there Eabos?

    I am copying the AGRO invite line below (you have to join Google Groups and confirm to get email there) and I encourage everyone to join MBAA for the $20 that will help fill the membership with more than just XC racers. MBAA is about access and we need members.

    http://groups.google.com/group/arizo...s_invite?hl=en

    www.mbaa.net

    I have thought about offering myself to be the AGRO "spokesperson" when Mykhelle leaves, that is if other AGRO members are in support of that. As some of you know my profession is in the field of land use so I am familiar with working through the beaurocratic mess that is government, so the role is somewhat fitting. Before committing to anything though I need to make sure that I will have the time to give AGRO the attention it needs, I don't like to do things half-@ss and there is alot to be done if we expect to increase or FR/DH options around here.
    JRA

  54. #54
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    I am new to this forum, but I am not new to the NRA pit or riding.
    I was really upset when I read that the NRA pit was going to be torn apart just to add some contector trail, that I could have sworn already existed.
    I agree though the only way to fix this is to go about this professionally, we need to use something like AGRO as our foundation, I am already a member and think it would be good if others joined.
    There is no reason why we cant win and make that spot completly legal, just tell me what I need to do and I will get it done!

    Dan

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by eabos
    I have thought about offering myself to be the AGRO "spokesperson" when Mykhelle leaves, that is if other AGRO members are in support of that. As some of you know my profession is in the field of land use so I am familiar with working through the beaurocratic mess that is government, so the role is somewhat fitting. Before committing to anything though I need to make sure that I will have the time to give AGRO the attention it needs, I don't like to do things half-@ss and there is alot to be done if we expect to increase or FR/DH options around here.
    Mike has done great, but I am in support of that, we need someone who is knowledgable in these areas.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrSc
    I am new to this forum, but I am not new to the NRA pit or riding.
    I was really upset when I read that the NRA pit was going to be torn apart just to add some contector trail, that I could have sworn already existed.
    I agree though the only way to fix this is to go about this professionally, we need to use something like AGRO as our foundation, I am already a member and think it would be good if others joined.
    There is no reason why we cant win and make that spot completly legal, just tell me what I need to do and I will get it done!

    Dan
    Almost everyone who has posted about this is a memeber of AGRO..

    Help me put a face to your name Dan as I have most certainly met you if you frequent the pit.

  57. #57
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    Hey guys thought I would thow this out for some humor . I think I found the culprit that has been making dirt piles in the desert..sorry had to


  58. #58
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    Oscar peformance!

  59. #59
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    That was sweet. The ending really pulled it together...
    Desert Sunset Calls/Upward, Pain, Perseverance/Welcome Solitude

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Almost everyone who has posted about this is a memeber of AGRO..

    Help me put a face to your name Dan as I have most certainly met you if you frequent the pit.
    its been a while for me since I rode out at the NRA, just because all the people I used to ride with either moved, or dont have a bike anymore that and I am in the process of buying a new bike so I can ride more, I have one but its mainly my DJ bike.

    I just try to help the growth of the Gravity community as much as I can since I live here.

    Dan

  61. #61
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    I rode a couple freeride trails in Jackson Hole this summer. They were built by this group www.tetonfreedomriders.org There main guy was the liason between bikers and the community in 2003 "when the Bridger Teton National Forest proposed the adoption of the then “rogue” downhill mountain bike trails." There might be some advice and president there.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Hey guys thought I would thow this out for some humor . I think I found the culprit that has been making dirt piles in the desert..sorry had to

    That was GREAT!
    JRA

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruppguts
    I rode a couple freeride trails in Jackson Hole this summer. They were built by this group www.tetonfreedomriders.org There main guy was the liason between bikers and the community in 2003 "when the Bridger Teton National Forest proposed the adoption of the then “rogue” downhill mountain bike trails." There might be some advice and president there.
    I just sent an e-mail to them hoping to gain some positive advice, I will post what is said once I hear back from them.
    Has the death and destruction started yet at the pit?

  64. #64
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    Okay it's time to get this organized........ We need just a few strong people to represent. These people should be people who frequent the pit alot and have been involved with the past cleanup and the work out there. Right now Mo is @ the top of my list for being the group leader in the representation of the pit that is if he is up to it....

    Sorry but the people that want to save NRA need to be riders that are in the know of what is out there and the people who use the area to ride. They also need to know or be one of the peeps that have made it the number 1 spot to get their freeride fix in the valley.

    As said earlier this needs not be a scatter shot of people trying to fix the mess on their own .WE need to form our core group ASAP........or let NRA suffer its' fate in silence as it has weathered many times before this..It was only less than a year and a half ago the FS tore it down last. Only difference now is the FR scene and NRA has blown up 100 times more since the last destruction of the pit and its jumps.
    Last edited by clockwork; 12-12-2008 at 10:15 AM.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrSc
    Has the death and destruction started yet at the pit?
    nope and when it does it will take some time as there are 100 + features and a few miles of trails

  66. #66
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    Can you write the name and phone number for the forest service guy in charge of the area so that everyone can give him a call and express our interest and concern to save the trails and to start the process of making them legal. Also, what group name are we going to call our organization and who can start an easy website to get names and phone numbers of supporters to sign up on and arrange meetings etc. for planning.

  67. #67
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    You guys are welcome to use AGRO

    Quote Originally Posted by locoriggs
    Can you write the name and phone number for the forest service guy in charge of the area so that everyone can give him a call and express our interest and concern to save the trails and to start the process of making them legal. Also, what group name are we going to call our organization and who can start an easy website to get names and phone numbers of supporters to sign up on and arrange meetings etc. for planning.
    Little Mo would be my choice for his demeanor and possible resources. Since AGRO already has a pretty good membership, it can be expanded upon. My main concern in giving the Ranger a call from a huge group is that he may not react well to multiple contacts. Since I have not heard back from Debbie, it might be a good time to put up a petition.

    I know the area has been torn down and built back up again over the years, but I feel like the timing is getting pretty good around the country with all the legit FR areas popping up.

    What about the wood features that were specifically ask not to be introduced? Some reason these cannot be replaced with dirt? If the FS is going to be asked to adopt, the least that can be done is show respect for their guidelines. Integrity, good faith and respect can go a long way towards cooperation with land managers anywhere.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhykhelle
    Little Mo would be my choice for his demeanor and possible resources. Since AGRO already has a pretty good membership, it can be expanded upon. My main concern in giving the Ranger a call from a huge group is that he may not react well to multiple contacts. Since I have not heard back from Debbie, it might be a good time to put up a petition.

    I know the area has been torn down and built back up again over the years, but I feel like the timing is getting pretty good around the country with all the legit FR areas popping up.

    What about the wood features that were specifically ask not to be introduced? Some reason these cannot be replaced with dirt? If the FS is going to be asked to adopt, the least that can be done is show respect for their guidelines. Integrity, good faith and respect can go a long way towards cooperation with land managers anywhere.
    Yes it is time for the petition .At least that gathers all names in one place.

    Also as for the wood those can be replaced with lots of work but its doable . However the wood is not what they are after right now and I seriously doubt the have done a full walk of the area yet. It is no longer the off season and they are making their first rounds since before summer. Lets not get into a pissing match of what could have been done and deal with what is now ..You haven't helped build anything so quit throwing your finger around taking pot shots.BTW we cleaned up everyones trash including ours ,yes pulled beer cans, bottles ect from every place we could . Also all empty water bottles have been hualed off . So you can also stop harping about that also..

    It amazes me that it takes the word of it getting torn down for things to happen . We were introduced to the FS as the builders/reps for NRA outright by you . That is where our role is yes we were going to try and keep in contact with the FS thru the summer but again for other reasons I have said over on Agro my time for pushing the endeavour was cut down alot. .But it was US as a community "AGRO" that was supposed to form a core group back after the cleanup. Nothing ever happend everyone just rode during the summer. So we contiuned on our merry way .......Along the way I was contacted by the forest service about a line of jumps that went down the southwest corner of the pit down into the pit. This line and jumps were made by the FIRST B-line crew..Unfortunately they did not stay up on by line like they were supposed to and the forest service told us to remove them or risk the FS removing them ...If that was to happen then they were going to take down anything else they could ..WHO went out and returned the area to normal to keep the FS happy ??? It was us I posted and said that line needed to go the reasons and asap ..No one went out to tear it down so we had to . Since then has been no FS contact and all was well until now.

    Anyways my point is that is all our faults for not following thru with what was started back during the clean-up...Maybe its time for another clean up to show how much more support the is now.


    Sorry a little testy tonight.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Yes it is time for the petition .At least that gathers all names in one place.

    .....
    Anyways my point is that is all our faults for not following thru with what was started back during the clean-up...Maybe its time for another clean up to show how much more support the is now.


    Sorry a little testy tonight.
    No worries about telling it like it is. I have not built. I don't ride it enough either. I just see something good going on and want it to stick. I'll post up a petition tomorrow aftet BCT. I think you have been responsive overall. Hopefully Greffster gets an answer.

    A work day of clean up with the FS and pulling the wood might help. It would be worth the effort.

    I will be gone soon enough. I don't think I am the great savior, only just recognize something good when I see it like so many others have.

    Keep the faith and keep on riding. No Harp, maybe a 1554 though.

  70. #70
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    Hey guys, I don't know very many of you since I'm pretty new to MTBR, as well freeride and downhill in general. I know that if it weren't for the NRA Pit and The Playground, I would've never gotten into this amazing sport. I had been interested in downhill for a long time, but didn't wanna have to drive to Canada to do some fun riding! Haha. Thanks to some good friends and the time spent out at the pit though, I realized that these two places existed and quickly rounded up the dollars to get a DH bike. Since I purchased my bike, I have done nothing but try and spend every spare moment riding out at the pit. So, to say the least, I am more than interested in doing my part in progressing the Pit into a legit and legal place to ride.
    I manage a Local Bike Shop which is in East Mesa called Two Wheel Jones. I know that even though we aren't as popular as Cactus, or DNA which is right around the corner from the Pit, we have seen a very steady flow of dollars from the gravity community. This steady income is what keeps shops flowing, especially in weird economic times like now. So, I know that if a brand new shop like ours has been affected by the Pit, then surely other shops and shop owners can appreciate having such an awesome place to ride in our area. I believe that if a couple of shops could join together as a proffesional entity, or at least some employees from a couple of shops, along with MTBAA and AGRO then we would look pretty good as not only a "community", but an organization of responsible riders who are not looking for anything else but to have a good time. The shops could show that the Pit enables a steady flow of income for local shops, so it is good from an economic standpoint etc.... and MTBAA and AGRO could do their thing. I talked to the owner of Two Wheel Jones the other day and he said that he is also willing t do what he can to help out. I have seen several post about forming a petition for the matter, which I think is a good idea, and if nobody minds, I would love to set up a sign up sheet at my shop. I will make it a point to get signatures, ad if anybody wants to sign, we are located at Signal Butte and Baseline in the NE shopping center right next to the LA Fitness and Golden Spoon. But, that is if nobody minds. Like I said, I'm willing to do whatever I can. Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks and good luck!
    I'm PISSED!!! haha

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhykhelle
    No worries about telling it like it is. I have not built. I don't ride it enough either. I just see something good going on and want it to stick. I'll post up a petition tomorrow aftet BCT. I think you have been responsive overall. Hopefully Greffster gets an answer.

    A work day of clean up with the FS and pulling the wood might help. It would be worth the effort.

    I will be gone soon enough. I don't think I am the great savior, only just recognize something good when I see it like so many others have.

    Keep the faith and keep on riding. No Harp, maybe a 1554 though.
    NP yes another work day taking care of trash and their concerns would be good as that less $$ out of their budget... Thanks for the time you will take to fill out the petetion and wording it in a way the best suits the pit. That link to the electronic one off Agro looks like a good format to use. And your right it is a good thing and would be nice to preserve especially since we now have more dedicated builders finally which have been working b-line providing those easier jumps that we no longer build inturn providing the jumps need to progress from nothing to the bigger stuff.

  72. #72
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    Sometimes it takes a little bit of harsh words to wake people up, sure its easy to say you will support and do something but when it comes to following through then you see the truth.
    I know I have not been out there for any of the build and clean up projects though the last one I had a prior engagement that I had to attend to. I know that sound like nothing but an excuse, but I am serious when i say I will be there if we organize another clean/build day. I feel it my responsibility as a rider to support and take care of ther areas that myself and others enjoy. I dont want to see it go so I will do whatever is needed from myself to help preserve the spot. And to all the builders thanks for pushing to get things done and doing them right all the time.

    Dan

  73. #73
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    Clock, you can count me in for anything that you need. Distriputing petitions, gathering signatures, picking up cigarette butts, whatever it takes. I've sweated, blistered and dodged enough scorpions out a the pit to not want our hard work to go to waste. We need to organize a meeting of sorts to figure out what final direction is to be taken and what steps we are going to do to make this an orgainized effort. A bunch of rogue petitions, emails and phone calls with not do any good, without a united plan in mind. I love all of the reactions coming from this news, but we need to start acting now. Lets keep the shred alive.

  74. #74
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    Ill mention it again, im more than happy to organize all of our thoughts and points on paper, I'm off the bike for a while and will do what I can to help. Press packet, presentation, slide shows, I'd love to throw it together, make it look and feel like we are a well organized and put together group of individuals. Clean, clear, concise. Would it be good to have a selected roundtable discussion of group that wants to represent and present to the FS? I think a lot more would get done in person than typing back and forth to each other. . .im in no position to talk about building or anything, I'm sure y'all will figure out who needs to present. . . but an organized printed presence is a good thing. I would also be willing to use my website and build a site as an online point show our cause, not an open forum, just another point of contact.

    I can draft up the petition if you give me what needs to be stated on there, or copy it from AGRO?


    Also I wanted to clarify. . .Are we in trouble for the B line?
    Last edited by Truckee Trash; 12-13-2008 at 07:57 AM.

  75. #75
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    I'd really like to do something too. I don't think anything will happen until we put someone in charge, come up with a to-do list, and start making assignments. Should we start with Truckee Trash's suggestion? I have no experience with any of this, so I'm a little timid. Seems we're all a bit hesitant to take the helm.

  76. #76
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    No no trouble with B-line as far as I know ....The B-line issue was a while back .Whats done now is fine IMO.

    Peeps...We were just waiting to hear back from the FS though our normal ways but since there has been no return calls means its time for step 2 the petition...Which Mike said he was going to draw up sometime today maybe. Once thats going we do need to form the core group and get moving on a plan of action . But at the same time we need the FS to have open ears also which may mean after we have our core, a plan and have a long petition we might look at other ways to influence them with city/state help.However that could prove to be more destructful to our relationship with the FS.

    It would be nice also to have local IMBA support and knowledge dealing with land managers. We did have intial support but the guys that were helping getting the ball rolling were just that . They have many other projects on the table across the valley and don't have the time to pursue our goals .

    Its only been a week so this next week things should start to form .

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    No no trouble with B-line as far as I know ....The B-line issue was a while back .Whats done now is fine IMO.

    Peeps...We were just waiting to hear back from the FS though our normal ways but since there has been no return calls means its time for step 2 the petition...Which Mike said he was going to draw up sometime today maybe. Once thats going we do need to form the core group and get moving on a plan of action . But at the same time we need the FS to have open ears also which may mean after we have our core, a plan and have a long petition we might look at other ways to influence them with city/state help.However that could prove to be more destructful to our relationship with the FS.

    It would be nice also to have local IMBA support and knowledge dealing with land managers. We did have intial support but the guys that were helping getting the ball rolling were just that . They have many other projects on the table across the valley and don't have the time to pursue our goals .

    Its only been a week so this next week things should start to form .
    Alright, thank you for the update. Once things start rolling, well hopfully they do then i will be there to help.

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    Like I said in my last post, Travis Jones, the owner of Two Wheel Jones is willing to help. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to host a couple of meetings at the shop so we could actually come together when the time is right. Also, if whoever is making the petition could send me a copy, I'd love to post them at the shop as well. Anything that I can do is what I'm willing to throw out there. Please consider using our shop as a meeting place, it's close to the pit...kinda haha...and Travis would be more than happy to take part in something like this. He went out a few months ago and was amazed at the construction of the jumps and all the time spent building them and would hate to see them torn down.
    I'm PISSED!!! haha

  79. #79
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    If a petition is posted there also then the petition should state that you only sign one of them and not both . And if we go that far then we will see what other bike shops are willing to post one in their shops also .

    Also another good point to make is there areas and shops that have seen a boost in sales as a result of a good place to ride. I for one have recomended shops and bikes to other riders especially newbs. One guy came out with the wrong bike and worng gear. After a bit of talking and some recommendations he arrived back at the pit with one of the recommend bikes and gear. 2 shops got those sales. One was cactus for armor and such and the other was performance for a mongoose kyber .

    That is just one example of how shops have benifited. Now if we can get the shops in on the fight ,along with us riders and a good attack plan I think we can get something worked out with the forest service. The Adopt-A-trail method might also be a good route to pursue also .

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    That's exactly what I said in my post on page 3...haha. The NRA Pit brings in a very steady flow of d specific sales and has helped keep our numbers stable...as I'm sure the same goes for several other shops.
    I'm PISSED!!! haha

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    That is a point that needs to be brought up to the Forest Service...If they are a government and National organization, then I'm sure they are both concerned with/and involved in the economic affairs of both Local and National economic situations. That's why I was saying we, the local shops, need to join together and support the legalization of the pit. Like Mattboy said, most of these people don't know the cost of a dh rig, and once they found out how much they cost and how important those kind of sales are to local bike shops, I'm sure they might be a little more interested in what we have to say. ESPECIALLY if we get these local shops to join together with MTBAA and AGRO.
    I'm PISSED!!! haha

  82. #82
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    Our dollars go beyond bike shops though. Gas at the quicky mart and the food bought there or at the nearby Safeway or Subway (never Indigo Joe's). I know it would be harder to quantify those dollars but it is one more avenue.
    Got Daytons on the Motha Ship - Cube

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    Monday morning before I head into work I am going to make a stop at a few bike shops to see if they are willing to support this, every avenue we can take right.

  84. #84
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    Not trying to be lame but...

    Quote Originally Posted by SewperDrewper
    That is a point that needs to be brought up to the Forest Service...If they are a government and National organization, then I'm sure they are both concerned with/and involved in the economic affairs of both Local and National economic situations. That's why I was saying we, the local shops, need to join together and support the legalization of the pit. Like Mattboy said, most of these people don't know the cost of a dh rig, and once they found out how much they cost and how important those kind of sales are to local bike shops, I'm sure they might be a little more interested in what we have to say. ESPECIALLY if we get these local shops to join together with MTBAA and AGRO.
    No offense but how many full blown DH rigs did your shop sell last year? Do you know the difference between Federal Land, State Land and City Land?? I hear alot of people getting upset about this without any basic knowledge of what they are talking about.

    Economic factors are part of a true NEPA (National Environment Protection Act) decision regarding any planning effort for trails, but doesn't really constitute a factor that I have ever heard of that will stand up to well paid & well organzied environmentalists who would rather see every inch of Federal (BIA, BLM and Forest Service) Land become a designated Wilderness with limited access for most types of use.

    Right now the Forest Service is getting ready to issue OHV maps that will effectively close hundreds of miles of OHV trails. I'm sure that may hurt the local ATV/OHV shops sales but I seriously doubt that a petition signed by the shops would have any effect on these types of decisions.

    Pro-Active involvement of a recognized and defined organization is usually the best way to go. I'm not saying a petition drive and local shop support isn't helpful. The more red flags sent to a land manager about a decision the better. Just make sure you have some basic knowledge up front.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiGWaVeDave
    No offense but how many full blown DH rigs did your shop sell last year? Do you know the difference between Federal Land, State Land and City Land?? I hear alot of people getting upset about this without any basic knowledge of what they are talking about.

    Economic factors are part of a true NEPA (National Environment Protection Act) decision regarding any planning effort for trails, but doesn't really constitute a factor that I have ever heard of that will stand up to well paid & well organzied environmentalists who would rather see every inch of Federal (BIA, BLM and Forest Service) Land become a designated Wilderness with limited access for most types of use.

    Right now the Forest Service is getting ready to issue OHV maps that will effectively close hundreds of miles of OHV trails. I'm sure that may hurt the local ATV/OHV shops sales but I seriously doubt that a petition signed by the shops would have any effect on these types of decisions.

    Pro-Active involvement of a recognized and defined organization is usually the best way to go. I'm not saying a petition drive and local shop support isn't helpful. The more red flags sent to a land manager about a decision the better. Just make sure you have some basic knowledge up front.
    I can understand wanting to preserve the wilderness because personally I do feel like way to much of the open land is dissapearing way to quickly: however, I also do not think that the land should be taken away from any group of people who want to use it for recreational purposes.
    Thats why we NEED to become a unified group and work together. We cant possibly work to stop this if we are going against a group that has a leader, a plan that has been discussed and is obviously working, and funding behind it. I like the fact that so many people want to protect the land that we all use, but like so many people have said already said there is a right way and a wrong way behind all of it.
    Lets tkae it one step at a time and not jump the gun on something that needs to be done the right way.

    Dan

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyBoyR6
    Our dollars go beyond bike shops though. Gas at the quicky mart and the food bought there or at the nearby Safeway or Subway (never Indigo Joe's). I know it would be harder to quantify those dollars but it is one more avenue.
    I know for sure Tacate sales have gone up too.

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    Thanks a lot Matt, that's exactly what I was trying to get people to see...I only used bike shops as my example though. And news to BigWaveDave!!! I thought our whole goal was to try and save this place?! All I was trying to do was try and motivate people to see the good in what the Pit offers...not trying to show off numbers or any bs like that. And for your stupidly cynical question about our sales of "DH Specific rigs" wtf and wth do you care?! But just so you can sleep at night, the number is 0! Do you feel better??? Now, we have sold probably close to a dozen bikes that people have bought specifically to ride out at the Pit, and those were the bikes that I was referring to. And they're more All-Mountain oriented than straight up "DH Rigs" so I don't know if you would deem them "Pit worthy". Now if you have something that will help out the group involved in saving the Pit, lets leave the rest of the posts to that, not trying to pick a fight with someone who's just trying to throw out ideas!
    I'm PISSED!!! haha

  88. #88
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    And I wasn't wanting to shops to up and rally for the cause, if you had have read what I wrote, I very clearly stated that the shops should join in with the organizations as some kind of support!!!
    I'm PISSED!!! haha

  89. #89
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    R-E-L-A-X bro

    Quote Originally Posted by SewperDrewper
    That is a point that needs to be brought up to the Forest Service...If they are a government and National organization, then I'm sure they are both concerned with/and involved in the economic affairs of both Local and National economic situations.

    SewperDrewper - Take a prozac or something man. All I was saying is that the Forest Service is a Federal Government Branch entitled under the U.S. Department of Agriculture. They are charged with multi-use (that includes recreation) management of the Federally designated Forests and Wilderness areas. Not State Parks (that's park service), not County Parks (that's County Land). They are NOT charged with being invovlved in the "Local and National Economic situations". That includes your shop sales and Circle K beer sales.

    I fully suppport the adoption of the NRA area and belive it should be a part of a trail management plan for the Mesa Ranger District and Tonto National Forest. I believe that support from local shops is very instrumental in getting something positive done. I was a shop owner myself (while working Full time for the USFS) for over 3 years and ran my own online store for 2 more years after my retail establishment was closed (love not money right).

    My post was related to the general lack of knowledge in the biking communitty about what the Forest Service is trying to do regarding it's management of the land. Utilizing established organizations that understand the Forest Service Laws, Mandates and Enforcement practices, and also realizing what most environemental lawsuits are based on goes a long way to getting something done. Clockwork understands this and that's why he's trying to utilize the contacts that are established. All it takes is a couple of calls by some ticked off freerider or shop owner to put a negative slant on things.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiGWaVeDave

    All it takes is a couple of calls by some ticked off freerider or shop owner to put a negative slant on things.

    Well said that is my biggest concern.

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    Thats why I am not making any calls, I know there are people who probably have already made it worse and I dont want it to go beyond that. I am here to help like I have said, however I am not here to do it myself and make it worse for everyone else.
    The communicating part I am going to leave up to people who know what they are talking about and have experience in the area. Has the petition been put up yet?

    Dan

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    I went to bed instead of taking any medication and that seemed to help a bit. I didn't mean to come off that rash and by no means want to offend anyone that's trying to help. I may have misunderstood what you initially responded to...sorry. Before getting into mountain biking so much, I was seriously involved in BMX. I'm SO tired of finally finding a good place to ride and no sooner find it, and it disappears to have a strip mall built. That's all I'm trying to keep from happening. Let me know what I can do...
    On a good note, I was out at the pit yesterday and got some amazing rides in! The dirt was UNBELIEVABLE! Also, we have a police helicopter actually land and the pilot took his time to see what was going on. Seemed like a nice guy. Other than that, just am all around awesome afternoon of riding.
    I'm PISSED!!! haha

  93. #93
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    I have Debbie's number and will call her in the morning.

    MBAA is an IMBA outfit. We have gotten help from my predecessor on the singletrack. I hope there is interest in the FS helping with this. Before we get too wrought up about petitions and meetings, I'd like to have a conversation with her that can be off the record so I can get a better idea of the FS needs.

    I apologize for the sporadic replies but I don't log on everyday.

  94. #94
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    I am on the fence now about the whole deal. Here is how I am starting to feel


    Let what ever happen happen as it clearly needs to be done so none system trails (our trails)don't interfer with system trails ( new connector) .There is no stopping them from getting rid of the jumps above and below the connector or the single track on A-B and nwo that connect into the new connector . IMO its just something that needs to be done ...Then in the aftermath we as a community/group get our plan down pat and then move forward with presenting it to the FS/Landmanager with proper support as a law abiding group. If we go this route I see less hurdles since it would be a fresh movement which can get full support of MBAA/IMBA and other resources. This whole approach is better than trying to turn a illegal area of jumps/trails into a legal place to ride/build. I can see where MBAA/IMBA really have there hands tied even if they do want to help the aggressive side of MTB'ing because it can be viewed that they support what is going on which I know they don't but they support the need for such an area to exist.

  95. #95
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    I was one of the clean up volunteers at NRA and think CW has a point. Just hate to see us losing this area - doesn't the Valley have enough "trails"-meaning XC for the most part. I think part if not all of this is that FS and BLM/State really is clueless as to trends in Mtn biking and just how much of a need there is for an area like this as FR is now so mainstream and has grown tremendously in popularity. How can we clue them into this?

  96. #96
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    I still doubt it will all go . We also as a group knew they were planing on a connector to pass mt and a possible loop or so to the west and north of the pit. Its progress moving in on us not a grudge against us. The way we clue them in is to form a strong group with AGRO as the heading ,then form a plan down to every detail , Form a managment plan for the area and follow suit with other places that have been successful.

    The thing is everything needs to be done in a manner that it doesn't require any of the FS budget . They simply don't have the money for new projects let alone their own . Who know's AGRO may have to become a not for profit organization just to raise funds for maintance/building/ect. We may even need to be not for profit just to adopt NRA.

    The main thing is to get the FS's open ear . If they won't atleast talk to us reps then there isn't much to do except leap frog the Mesa rangers (might piss them off more)or change the attack plan like I mentioned in the last post.

  97. #97
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    This is kinda what I'm thinking as well. The odds of getting stuff "grandfathered in" are pretty slim. Once the FS does whatever they have to do we can regroup and rebuild. Next time it'll be legit AND better since we know what stuff works now. Plus we have a ton of people to help out...
    Desert Sunset Calls/Upward, Pain, Perseverance/Welcome Solitude

  98. #98
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    CW I agree it looks like there will be an eventual need to form a non for profit. Time will of course tell. Some of my contacts I talked to you about will probably be willing to help with that. Please keep us all updated guys.

    I know Kore will be cool with hosting petitions and Ryan would probably be willing to speak if needed. He was part of the movement that helped Chandler bike park become a reality,

    Crimson

  99. #99
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    Will do and thanks.

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    As much as I dont want to see what is there go now I do understand what is being said. Well I will also talk to the guys at rage and see how they feel about supporting this as we prgress forward with the plan.

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