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  1. #1
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    Nightranger at Hawes now?

    Haven’t been out to Hawes for a couple weeks and was able to get a quick ride in this morning. WTF is happening out there? Several bypass/reroutes now and some really lame sanitation.

    First the wash on Granite Reef has been bypassed. That wash does suck but still. When heading down Disney Land (Saddle) and you take the second entrance to Secret the steep switchback about 30 yards in has been bypassed with a straight fall line route. There is also a Cardiac bypass now.

    While I struggle with the bypasses and reroutes at least the original lines are there. What really chaps my ass is the lame a$$ sanitation going on. Rocks are being removed all over the place. Rocks that aren’t even technical or difficult to maneuver over or around. I’d say an intermediate rider could easily maneuver these obstacles, even some better noobs could make it.

    The only advantage to removing these rocks, rocks that have been there for as long as I have been riding there, is to make the trail flow easier which got me thinking who would do this? The only logical answer I could come up with (I have no proof) is yet another negative side effect of Strava. Do you think people are smoothing out the trails to gain a few seconds here and there? I sure as hell hope not. Leave the trails alone !!!!
    Last edited by Douger-1; 12-07-2012 at 02:22 PM.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  2. #2
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    I rode Hawes on Thanksgiving after not being out there for a month or so and seems like everything was "smoother", almosted graded. Someone's doing a lot of work out there.
    Cholla cactus=nature's guard rail.

  3. #3
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    Bypassing Cardiac?!?! Weak. First the Tequila Tree, now this. Sheesh. Isn't there some master plan to install a formal trailhead & create new trails out there by the Forest Service?? Could they be doing the work??
    I ride the crappy trails so you don't have to
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeskier46 View Post
    Bypassing Cardiac?!?! Weak. First the Tequila Tree, now this. Sheesh. Isn't there some master plan to install a formal trailhead & create new trails out there by the Forest Service?? Could they be doing the work??
    It bypasses the fall line climbing section with a less fall line, switchback route.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Wasn't traildoc just in town?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javelina View Post
    Wasn't traildoc just in town?
    He was but he was out playing around the Gold Canyon area, riding and "stuff".
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  7. #7
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    I would almost say this is one of the downsides with mtb catching on in popularity. The more folks getting into the sport, the more mainstream it is getting and the more folks are just going to do what they want to cut a corner or make it easer to flow for them. Some of the folks getting into the sport may have no outdoor experience, no anything about etiquette or just don’t give a sheet and they are so self centered that they will do whatever they want to make their little world the way they want it.

    There has been a lot of people cutting corners and trying to make “faster” lines in the T100 area so it’s everywhere. If it’s possible, find some large rocks/brush and shut the lines down

  8. #8
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    I did notice early summer that someone had sanitized the crap out of the switchback descent on the Saddle trail. However Mother Nature didn't appreciate that during monsoon season and it looks like she restored some order. I haven't ridden Cardiac in a long time so I haven't seen any changes there but I do agree someone is definitely destroying the character of the trail at Hawes and it's thoroughly disappointing.

  9. #9
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    Actually, I believe the Night Ranger bought a 2nd home in west Mesa last year or the year before. No joke.

    edit to add the thread: Question for Phoenix XC riders who are also runners

  10. #10
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    I think I'm still out of vitrol to spew having used up too much last month...so I'll just say it's a pathetic person who has to dumb down Hawes.

  11. #11
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    where x-actly does the cardiac bypass start? is it before the initial ascent, or does it branch off after the climbing begins? I was at the MMP race loops the other day, and the second drop on the tech trail, as well as the "step" on the long loop now have official bypass trails built into the system
    I stand by the creed of "RIDE THE MOUNTAIN" IF YOU CANNOT? improve, or walk-it.
    It really should be that simple.
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  12. #12
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    I was out there today. Fenceline, up Cardiac, down Disneyland to second Secret entrance, up to Mine Trail an down the backside and climbed out of that taking the right hand steep up and down all the swoopy stuff to the canal...road ride/west side canal dirt track back.

    There are many shortcuts, straight line shoots across the virgin desert all over the place. The washes have become unrideable in many places like down in Secret and coming back from the bottom of Mine. I suspect this may be a reason. Lots of other shorts cuts as well that cut the corners that scrub speed, cutting the twisties that can only be done for speed the way I see it. I think uncaring d/h'rs are part of the problem as well....no offence to the good folk who like to d/h at Hawes.

  13. #13
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    One of my goals has been to fully clean Goat Camp in the White Tanks. Really tough. To help, I rented paving equipment. Once the pavement dries I think I can clean it. And it would be rideable by the masses. But I don't think this is the thread to talk about this in.

    But seriously, this isn't cool. Hawes is great, and definitely does not need sanitizing. There is a nice trail system up here where someone built some trails (yes, legal) and they won't even ride them due to it being too difficult. They actually built trails that they won't ride, but others can! Crazy thought.

    I'd rather sell my bike than dumb down trails.

  14. #14
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    The majority of the new lines I saw were not for ease of riding but rather to avoid a wash, or to avoid a corner (which really chaps my hide as it widens the trail and screams "MTBING!)......hence my suspicion of newbie d/h'rs. Other cuts are to just save time, like the one that goes from the middle of Hawes east of the 3-way over to Cardiac. That can be a time saver both up or down and if properly cut and routed may not actually be a bad idea since there is obviously a desire for such a cut. It's just that in it's current state it's a mess and wreaks of trail blazing. Not good.

  15. #15
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    Rode yesterday for the first time in a couple of weeks. I also noticed the trail had changed dramatically. Seems to me the area is seeing a lot of riding since the weather has improved. I will agree with Douger someone has been cutting new lines. What really gets me is the excessive "skidding" that is going on, especially on Secret. Come on, I don't see the need to skid all over the place. Use your brakes properly and learn how to ride.

  16. #16
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    I noticed the Cardiac cut today while running the Hawes system and I was bummed. It took me probably 20+ attempts at riding the entire "double" Cardiac climb before making it without any dabs but, man, was I stoked when I finally made it!! Granted, the trail has taken a beaten from storms and over-brakers which has made it pretty tough to clear. And the bypass (I ran it today to see what was up!) is actually not too ghetto, BUT I think keeping the integrity of Cardiac is important. If the original route is too tough, just keep trying! I thought FINALLY making sections you couldn't make "back in the day" was one of the things that made mountain biking so addicting?! Progress!!!!

    As for blaming Strava for Hawes cuts, I doubt that's the issue unless people think it's a good idea to cut a new trail just to land a few notches below the KOM of a section (I know the KOM of most Hawes sections and he does NOT cut trails.) Personally, I think people just get frustrated because a section is thrashed and they want a smoother/easier line. It's a lack of patience and perseverance, not Strava.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    The washes have become unrideable in many places like down in Secret and coming back from the bottom of Mine. I suspect this may be a reason.
    The two you mention here are the only two I've noticed. The one at the top/high point on secret has been there for a while, at least a year. I like it better than going up (east) in the wash. It's more fun and a bit of a challenge. Secret has only been a trail for 4 years now. I don't know the guy (his name) that built it, but I did talk to him while it was being built. It is an illegal trail in the first place, so why shouldn't it be rerouted for the better? I don't see this as dumbing down, but an improvement.

    The one on the way back from the mine trail is a route around the super sand pit. I hope that we will get some light rain someday that will firm up the sand so that pit will be ridable again.

    The trail that everyone calls cardiac is actually an under ground cable run running up to the towers. It was never meant to be a mountain bike trail, and will never be pristine single track. That being said, I have recently ridden that trail in both directions, and I did not see any new switchbacks. Just because I didn't see it doesn't mean it's not there, I just didn't see it. That trail/run is ever changing with each season. riders will naturally find routes around the ruts as they form. I've seen it change many times, and expect to see it continue to do so.

    If you think Hawes is getting too sanitized, just wait for the next monsoon season, it'll get F'd up again.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav View Post
    The two you mention here are the only two I've noticed. The one at the top/high point on secret has been there for a while, at least a year. I like it better than going up (east) in the wash. It's more fun and a bit of a challenge. Secret has only been a trail for 4 years now. I don't know the guy (his name) that built it, but I did talk to him while it was being built. It is an illegal trail in the first place, so why shouldn't it be rerouted for the better? I don't see this as dumbing down, but an improvement.

    The one on the way back from the mine trail is a route around the super sand pit. I hope that we will get some light rain someday that will firm up the sand so that pit will be ridable again.

    The trail that everyone calls cardiac is actually an under ground cable run running up to the towers. It was never meant to be a mountain bike trail, and will never be pristine single track. That being said, I have recently ridden that trail in both directions, and I did not see any new switchbacks. That trail/run is ever changing with each season. riders will naturally find routes around the ruts as they form. I've seen it change many times, and expect to see it continue to do so.

    If you think Hawes is getting to sanitized, just wait for the next monsoon season, it'll get F'd up again.
    Ya, the Secret wash was never a great option but it has worked for years. it's just that now it' over-run with deep sand. The cut-across is valid but not an ideal run. But I didn't work on it so I have little to say.

    The cut turns/switchbacks I speak of are on other areas. Over the past months they've come and gone. the ones I most remember are on the way down (heading west) from the point where if riding down Disneyland and across the wash up the hill you come to a "T". Option one being continue on to Mine, option two you take a left and bomb down that section to the 3-way. I have seen severe cuts to the turns (read straight lines omitting the curves) coming down that area. The only reason for those would be to maintain speed. None of these things are to make the trail easier.

    Going up Cardiac/Mudflaps is tough now. There is a certain section on the steeps with a lot of sand. I made it today, but last week had to dismount. It's tough always b/c of the climb but with the extra sand traction at spots is a real challenge. A lot of the area towards the houses was built for underground or overhead cable/wire. I think much of TRW is the same way. Still makes for great trail!
    Last edited by eatdrinkride; 12-07-2012 at 11:35 PM.

  19. #19
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    I was out at Hawes today and talked to some guys while riding on Secret who said the guy who built Secret did the reroute around the wash. The sand got really deep supposedly and he got tired of raking it out. It looks like the original route is still there if you want to trudge the sand. Personally I don't mind sandy washes. They remind me of riding in the snow.

    I've been riding out there pretty regularly for the last 6 months and what I've seen is a LOT of damage was done by the rains this winter/fall and the trails have gradually evolved due to use since then. A lot of areas had some really deep sand from the rains which probably caused some of the corner cutting.

    As far as other reroutes like the one around Cardiac... I didn't see that one but I would rather see a reroute around an obstacle or climb for those that can't ride it or don't want to than the obstacle being dumbed down, provided the original route stays intact also. The more the merrier.
    While coming back from Twisted on Saddle I did see a trail that goes off the the right , right as you get to the steep switchback climb. It doesn't look like it makes it any easier so either it's always been there and I didn't notice it or the DH kiddies built it. It looks like it goes straight up the hill.

    To the people that haven't been out there in a while I just think most of the "smoothness" on the main trails is from the rains and it's happened over time since then. By summer it'll be back the way it was mostly.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    I was out at Hawes today and talked to some guys while riding on Secret who said the guy who built Secret did the reroute around the wash. The sand got really deep supposedly and he got tired of raking it out. It looks like the original route is still there if you want to trudge the sand. Personally I don't mind sandy washes. They remind me of riding in the snow.

    I've been riding out there pretty regularly for the last 6 months and what I've seen is a LOT of damage was done by the rains this winter/fall and the trails have gradually evolved due to use since then. A lot of areas had some really deep sand from the rains which probably caused some of the corner cutting.

    As far as other reroutes like the one around Cardiac... I didn't see that one but I would rather see a reroute around an obstacle or climb for those that can't ride it or don't want to than the obstacle being dumbed down, provided the original route stays intact also. The more the merrier.
    While coming back from Twisted on Saddle I did see a trail that goes off the the right , right as you get to the steep switchback climb. It doesn't look like it makes it any easier so either it's always been there and I didn't notice it or the DH kiddies built it. It looks like it goes straight up the hill.

    To the people that haven't been out there in a while I just think most of the "smoothness" on the main trails is from the rains and it's happened over time since then. By summer it'll be back the way it was mostly.
    I found another one today. If you are heading north on secret there is a little open area just prior to heading down to the sandy wash. I stopped there to take a break and looked off to my left to see a small cairn and a single drag mark of a locked rear wheel heading off into the desert. I knocked down the cairn and kicked dirt on the skid mark. I closed two others as well. Someone is doing a ton of damage out there. Sad
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Blame Red Bull. Blame the culture. Free riders are worshiped as the elite in the sport. It's perfectly reasonable that people would want to go "Where the trail ends" and carve some fresh tracks. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I found another one today. If you are heading north on secret there is a little open area just prior to heading down to the sandy wash. I stopped there to take a break and looked off to my left to see a small cairn and a single drag mark of a locked rear wheel heading off into the desert. I knocked down the cairn and kicked dirt on the skid mark. I closed two others as well. Someone is doing a ton of damage out there. Sad
    For what it's worth, Secret is an illegal trail itself. It turned out pretty damn good. I doubt it's the same guy building the rogue DH trails. With so many people out there it's hard to imagine
    someone can build trails and go unnoticed.

  23. #23
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    Mountain Biking is being overrun by cry baby pussies.

    They live in the desert but they want smooth Sun Valley Idaho style riding.

    In the end the desert will always come back rocky as usual.
    Singin' I love hike a bike!!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZTtripper View Post
    Mountain Biking is being overrun by cry baby pussies.

    They live in the desert but they want smooth Sun Valley Idaho style riding.

    In the end the desert will always come back rocky as usual.
    Aside from new trails being built, I haven't seen any smoothing of existing trails.

  25. #25
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    Sanitization out there:

    I think it is a combo. After a good rain, some embedded rocks loosen up, then a horse or some bumps them. A month later it is dislodged. Then someone pitches it. I try to put them back.

    There is a cleaning crew too. Switchbacks have been sanitized twice in the last few months. The water bar added was good though. There is a little here and there too. The worst for me though is this big rock in the middle of trail when climbing mine just a bit after the lower climbs. It weighs over 100 pounds and was going no where. Someone rolled it down the hill. I rolled it back. Well it is now gone again. I will be putting it back too. The rock was not a big deal and did not really slow you down. I just don't get it.

    Corner cutting is so so lame. I will try to line rock and cactus where I see it. Need to stop pedaling a bit more. Strava is not to blame for this stuff. People should stop blaming a good training tool for everything under the sun.

    I am torn by the new lines. I actually like the lines at end of mine and cardiac. That soft sand wash is ridiculous right now. I have done it, but few will. I would like to see the mess of lines disappear there. Not sure if it is right, but the thought crossed my mind to put some rocks in the way to divert traffic on to the new line. Then try to smooth out the others. Not sure that would be right though?

    That cardiac line should either be made better, or destroyed. If we put rocks and cactus all over it, my guess is it will be cleaned. USFS approval for anything is a crazy amount of work. If it is not reinforced on the side hill, and the straight line up it is not curved a few times to incorporate water diversion, it will be a terrible mess real fast.

    The whole new line dilemma is a tough one for sure. Not even sure if this post or thread should even be here.

    Ideally, the only trail work should be to manage erosion and trails getting to wider.

    I am still thinking about putting up a few laminated signs out there stating, no new trails, don't sanitize/move the rocks, and no cutting corners. Any thoughts on this?
    Last edited by SugarHigh; 12-10-2012 at 08:10 AM.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    Sanitization out there. I think it is a combo. After a good rain, some embedded rocks loosen up, then a horse or some bumps them. A month later it is dislodged. Then someone pitches it. I try to put them back.

    There is a cleaning crew too. Switchbacks have been sanitized twice in the last few months. There is a little here and there too. The worst for me though is this big rock in the middle of trail when climbing mine just a bit after the lower climbs. It weighs over 100 pounds and was going no where. Someone rolled it down the hill. I rolled it back. Well it is now gone again. I will be putting in back too. The rock was not a big deal and did not really slow you down.

    Corner cutting is so dum. I will try to line rock and cactus where I see it. Need to stop pedaling a bit more. Strava is not to blame for this stuff. People should stop blaming a good training tool for everything under the sun.

    I am torn by the new lines. I actually like the lines at end of mine and cardiac. That soft sand wash is ridiculous right now. I have done it, but few will. I would like to see the Mess of lines disappear there. Not sure if it is right, but the thought crossed my mind to put some rocks in the way to divert traffic on to the new line. Then try to smooth out the others. Not sure that would be right though?

    That cardiac line should either be made better, or destroyed. If we put rocks and cactus all over it, my guess is it will be cleaned. USFS approval for anything is a crazy amount of work. If it is not reinforced on the side hill, and the straight line p it is not curved to incorporate water diversion, it will be a terrible mess real fast.

    The whole new line dilemma is a tough one for sure. Not even sure if this post or thread should even be here.

    Ideally, the only trail work should be to manage erosion and trails getting to wide.
    I think the problem is there is no governing body out there that Im aware of. Maybe that is a good thing but the amount of building, sanitizing and shortcutting trails is running out of control in my opinion (whether need or not) and if the powers that be do show up someday who knows how they will respond to it. Im all for more single track but there is a responsible way of doing things. So are people implying on here that because one trail was built illegally its justifiable to built more where ever you want? I get the re-route around a wash thing but there is a proper way to do it otherwise we get what we have on Granite trail which is probably 5 different routes around the wash resulting in a tracked out area 20 yards wide. Cutting corners on lower ridge trail? Come on.

    Whether this post bringing attention to all the new construction/destruction at Hawes is a good thing or a bad thing remains unseen. All Im saying is there is a right way and wrong way to do things and what’s going on out there is not right IMHO. I have asked many times how to help out at Hawes. If they had work days like they do on the BCT Id be out there in a heartbeat. Until that day happens I will continue to shut down corner cutting and putting back intentionally removed obstacles.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZTtripper View Post
    Mountain Biking is being overrun by cry baby pussies.
    This could probably be better stated as "The world" is being overrun by cry babies. Mtb included.

    Sad that people are deteriorating the desert with lines... DHer or not. I personally dont know the appeal of pushing your DHer up the slopes out there. I love my DH ride but haven't seen anything rough/steep enough out at Hawes that I couldn't make a better/faster line on my XC with....but hey maybe that's because I'm not plowing over the top of the un-groomed desert
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    The only advantage to removing these rocks, rocks that have been there for as long as I have been riding there, is to make the trail flow easier which got me thinking who would do this? The only logical answer I could come up with (I have no proof) is yet another negative side effect of Strava. Do you think people are smoothing out the trails to gain a few seconds here and there? I sure as hell hope not. Leave the trails alone !!!!
    I too seen many routes in my area cleaned and raked and I do believe some of this is due to people trying to get a faster strava time. if it is true they are scum, they better be extra careful because I do trail restoration whenever I can. if they go flying along somewhere and an obstical is placed back where it belings it's thier own fault for not learning to ride better. I also block re-routes where they don't belong. I take TD's thought process in these cases, he and other's change a trail to make it easier or so called flowy for them, I have just as much right to put it back the way it was for other's and myself.
    Last edited by TacoBeer; 12-10-2012 at 10:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacoBeer View Post
    I too seen many routes in my area cleaned and raked and I do believe some of this is due to people trying to get a faster strava time. if it is true they are scum, they better be extra careful because I do trail restoration whenever I can. if they go flying along somewhere and an obstical is placed back where it belings it's thier own fault for not learning to ride better. I also block re-routes where they don't belong. I take TD's thought process in these cases, he and other's change a trail to make it easier or so called flowy for them, I have just as much right to but it back the way it was for other's and myself.
    Over time, moving rocks for a better Strava time should do nothing. Eveyone will be faster, not just the guy chasing a ranking. Also, the Hawes locations that have had most of the sanitation do not have Strava segments.

    Folks do this because they think they are making it better. I bet they think they are doing a public service.
    Last edited by SugarHigh; 12-10-2012 at 11:14 AM.

  30. #30
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    I made a few skin donations to the Hawes trails this weekend due to kitty litter washouts. Trails look 'bout right for this time of year.... dry & loose but still fun! Winter rains will help bring the cycle back around.

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    I blame stupid, low, BB heights.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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    Pardon my ignorance but when you guys say cutting a corner, what do you mean exactly? I picture in my head that cutting a corner is like cutting across a switchback so I'm not sure what you are referencing to. Can you give me an example at Hawes were someone is cutting a corner?

    As for trail modifications, one that always bothered me that I remember constantly is on Secret. There was a small little rock bridge that was no more than one or two feet long and about 3-4 inches wide. You had to go over the "rock bridge" because either side had a nice deep dip you didn't want to hit going downhill. About a year ago I noticed someone smoothed off the edges of the dip so it's ridable now and you could completely bypass the rock bridge. Why someone would do this I have no idea but I've been wanting to restore that feature for a long time now.

    I'm definitely going to take some time one of these weekends to post up trail modification warning signs wherever I can. Any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECEGatorTuro View Post
    Pardon my ignorance but when you guys say cutting a corner, what do you mean exactly? I picture in my head that cutting a corner is like cutting across a switchback so I'm not sure what you are referencing to. Can you give me an example at Hawes were someone is cutting a corner?

    As for trail modifications, one that always bothered me that I remember constantly is on Secret. There was a small little rock bridge that was no more than one or two feet long and about 3-4 inches wide. You had to go over the "rock bridge" because either side had a nice deep dip you didn't want to hit going downhill. About a year ago I noticed someone smoothed off the edges of the dip so it's ridable now and you could completely bypass the rock bridge. Why someone would do this I have no idea but I've been wanting to restore that feature for a long time now.

    I'm definitely going to take some time one of these weekends to post up trail modification warning signs wherever I can. Any thoughts?
    Here is one that I closed off this weekend. Its on lower ridge. The bypassed switch back has that little step in the middle of it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Nightranger at Hawes now?-hawescutoff.jpg  

    Last edited by Douger-1; 12-10-2012 at 05:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECEGatorTuro View Post
    There was a small little rock bridge that was no more than one or two feet long and about 3-4 inches wide. You had to go over the "rock bridge" because either side had a nice deep dip you didn't want to hit going downhill.
    were you the one who put the jagged tree stump next to the rock bridge in early september?
    i saw this huge chunk of wood in that dip one day blocking the bypass,, i didnt know if it was intentional good, intentional sabotage, or just from the previous monsoon, so i left it. it was gone 2 days later though

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    I lived out there for 4 years and rode damn near 5-6 days a week. This time of year I would notice horse traffic increase to include horse tours...and in many cases, observed them cutting switches or turns because of faces of rock that the riders felt uncomfortable riding in the switchback. I've seen it on lower Mine, on western twisted sister and on ridge...the one pictured above is one such area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Here is one that I closed off this weekend. Its on lower ridge. The bypassed switch back has that little step in the middle of it.
    Wow that's just stupid!

    Quote Originally Posted by longhairmike View Post
    were you the one who put the jagged tree stump next to the rock bridge in early september?
    i saw this huge chunk of wood in that dip one day blocking the bypass,, i didnt know if it was intentional good, intentional sabotage, or just from the previous monsoon, so i left it. it was gone 2 days later though
    Nope! I've never modified any trails but that's not to say I've never thought about it. Frankly I don't touch a thing because I don't know what some would construe as improving or damaging trails so I just leave it up to the knowledgeable trail builders and stay out of it. The only time I've done anything on a trail is if it's been blocked completely by a tree or cactus or the like.

    Maybe we should all organize a trail maintenance day at Hawes (with some knowledgeable trail builders).

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    The work day put together by chollaball over 4 years ago on mudflaps did a lot of good and the design held together for about 3 years....not bad considering it even weathered the snowpacalypse a few seasons back...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    I lived out there for 4 years and rode damn near 5-6 days a week. This time of year I would notice horse traffic increase to include horse tours...and in many cases, observed them cutting switches or turns because of faces of rock that the riders felt uncomfortable riding in the switchback. I've seen it on lower Mine, on western twisted sister and on ridge...the one pictured above is one such area.
    The one above was clearly mountain bike tracks. No horse tracks to be seen. Not to say it wasnt though.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    The one above was clearly mountain bike tracks. No horse tracks to be seen. Not to say it wasnt though.
    bummer....we should know better......

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECEGatorTuro View Post
    As for trail modifications, one that always bothered me that I remember constantly is on Secret. There was a small little rock bridge that was no more than one or two feet long and about 3-4 inches wide. You had to go over the "rock bridge" because either side had a nice deep dip you didn't want to hit going downhill. About a year ago I noticed someone smoothed off the edges of the dip so it's ridable now and you could completely bypass the rock bridge. ?
    I agree, that spot now pisses me off every time I ride it. It shouldn't but it does. The established route is now clearly not on the rock bridge itself but to the left of it. When first built there was no choice but to take the little bridge, and it was fun, but I suspect the way it's built, with that steep run-off above and to its left may be the real problem. Any water and sediment that now comes down that drainage I'd bet gets built up on the left side of the rocks....and over time it just created a natural walk-around that people started using...and now it's basically level with the rock bridge. They pretty much built a dam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZTtripper View Post
    Mountain Biking is being overrun by cry baby pussies.

    They live in the desert but they want smooth Sun Valley Idaho style riding.

    In the end the desert will always come back rocky as usual.
    AKA roadies invading mt biking...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZTtripper View Post
    Mountain Biking is being overrun by cry baby pussies.

    They live in the desert but they want smooth Sun Valley Idaho style riding.

    In the end the desert will always come back rocky as usual.
    Agreed!!!!

    Stop the sanitation and go back to your road bike you weaklings!!!!!
    I'd rather be hated for what I am, than loved for what I'm not......Dolemite.

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    On a side note, how do you guys feel about trimming. I have trimmed a few things out there once in the last year or so. I kept hitting certain inside branches. The plants are growing and it makes sense to keep them under control, but do it sparingly.

    Also, why are we throwing roadies under the bus now?
    Last edited by SugarHigh; 12-11-2012 at 08:46 AM.

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    I just assume too much. It's just my own opinion that people who sanitize should be on road bikes. It keeps the mountain biker in me happy.
    I'd rather be hated for what I am, than loved for what I'm not......Dolemite.

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    I see no issue with trimming. Actually think its necessary. If a shrub goes untrimmed it will eventually encroach on the trail pushing it further and further out. I have trimmed the fence line trail a few times myself. Cant imagine any trail user likes ducking trees.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I see no issue with trimming. Actually think its necessary. If a shrub goes untrimmed it will eventually encroach on the trail pushing it further and further out. I have trimmed the fence line trail a few times myself. Cant imagine any trail user likes ducking trees.
    I don't live on that side of town anymore, so dont get so passionate about Hawes anymore. Sanitation sucks, but I've just come to accept it. There is always something harder to ride. That said, if you see someone, by all means tell them what they are doing wrong -- not yell or attack, but definitely be assertive and confront them in a civil manner. And always make fun of effin dirt roadies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECEGatorTuro View Post
    I'm definitely going to take some time one of these weekends to post up trail modification warning signs wherever I can. Any thoughts?
    I like the sign idea. Not too may of them though. Maybe just put them on the sign posts that are already out there. Anyone out there will check them out. Laminte them so they will last longer.

    I like the color and humor of this one below. Even has the cool looking logos. It needs to be changed to reflect that this area is not very challenging. No need to make the trails easier by removing rocks or other obsticales or by cutting in new whimp lines. Also mention stay on the existing trails/no corner cutting, ... If they want easier smoother trails, go to the pavement, canals, or T100 ... Basically have it cleverly say, if you do stuff like this you are not worthy of respect in the mtb community.

    Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Nightranger at Hawes now?-426693_10151108647776870_903715110_n.jpg  

    Last edited by SugarHigh; 12-11-2012 at 10:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    I like the sign idea. Not too may of them though. Maybe just put them on the sign posts that are already out there. Anyone out there will check them out. Laminte them so they will last longer.

    I like the color and humor of this one below. Even has the cool looking logos. It needs to be changed to reflect that this area is not very challenging. No need to make the trails easier by removing rocks or other obsticales or by cutting in new whimp lines. Also mention stay on the existing trails/no corner cutting, ... If they want easier smoother trails, go to the pavement, canals, or T100 ... Basically have it cleverly say, if you do stuff like this you are not worthy of respect in the mtb community.

    Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
    he's channelling maadjurguer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    I like the sign idea. Not too may of them though. Maybe just put them on the sign posts that are already out there. Anyone out there will check them out. Laminte them so they will last longer.

    I like the color and humor of this one below. Even has the cool looking logos. It needs to be changed to reflect that this area is not very challenging. No need to make the trails easier by removing rocks or other obsticales or by cutting in new whimp lines. Also mention stay on the existing trails/no corner cutting, ... If they want easier smoother trails, go to the pavement, canals, or T100 ... Basically have it cleverly say, if you do stuff like this you are not worthy of respect in the mtb community.

    Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
    Sugar:

    Do you know how to get the pdf file of this sign? In the Sedona RTCA meetings coming up we are definitely going to be discussing signs and I think that sign work well on Highline, the Hogs and Hangover. It would also be nice to give a copy to the Sedona bike shops so they can post a copy.

    TD

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    Cholla, Thanks, um I think? I think Maad brings a cool perspective to this site and the AZ MTB community. Anyone who creates a geo riddle to find Tequilla gets

    TD, No clue how to get a pdf. I got it from a local moto site, and they got it from a site called ktmtalk.com. It looks to be from the CO area I am guessing. It would be easy to create, except for the cool gear skull and cross implements logo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    Cholla, Thanks, um I think? I think Maad brings a cool perspective to this site and the AZ MTB community. Anyone who creates a geo riddle to find Tequilla gets

    TD, No clue how to get a pdf. I got it from a local moto site, and they got it from a site called ktmtalk.com. It looks to be from the CO area I am guessing. It would be easy to create, except for the cool gear skull and cross implements logo.
    I believe that sign is from the Fruita/Grand Junction area. They've had their own issues with sanitizers modifying trails to match their riding ability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I see no issue with trimming. Actually think its necessary. If a shrub goes untrimmed it will eventually encroach on the trail pushing it further and further out. I have trimmed the fence line trail a few times myself. Cant imagine any trail user likes ducking trees.
    Douger:

    I definitely think trimming trails to about 24" from the center line is no big deal. If you have a trail with exposure and you want riders off the outside edge to preserve the tread I could go for a shorter length form the outside edge, like maybe 20" from the center line and even greater length on the inside line.

  53. #53
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    I have found that people will always modify stuff to suit their needs no matter how much work was put in to make trails / features. I gave up in NRA some time back as it was just pointless to maintain or add stuff because others would always change things to suit their needs.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

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    Well shucks....thx....but I think Cholla is refering to a sign I've intermittently put up in laminated form over the past few years when things like this have happened.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    Well shucks....thx....but I think Cholla is refering to a sign I've intermittently put up in laminated form over the past few years when things like this have happened.
    no....I was referring to the hissy fit about it. truly that was epic!

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    Ohh...you mean the boulder....that was just plain hard-headedness

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    Ohh...you mean the boulder....that was just plain hard-headedness
    it still makes me vijayjay bristle!

    Open letter to the person simplifying Hawes - Mtbr Forums

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    I like my sign of ridicule better than Maad's call the Ranger. If only he put that one up years ago, we would of had no problems all this time ...

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    To play devil’s advocate, who said that the trails were DESIGNED to be challenging? Did you build the trails to be challenging? You or anyone else have no right to put up signs like this, only the land manager.

    Back in the 90’s when the trails were being developed; they were not as challenging as they are now. Most of the Hawes trails are not very well laid out andn have a lot of fall line sections. Over the years, use and erosion have taken a toll, and have created a rutted out mess. Take the trails how they are, and they will morph over time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    Well shucks....thx....but I think Cholla is refering to a sign I've intermittently put up in laminated form over the past few years when things like this have happened.

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    You are correct, this sign is posted at the top of the Free Lunch trail in Grand Junction. Free lunch is a unique, specically design experts-only “Freeride” trail recently constructed in the popular Lunch loops area. The Hawes trails were not specifically designed to be challenging, poor design and weather created a rutted out mess out there.


    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I believe that sign is from the Fruita/Grand Junction area. They've had their own issues with sanitizers modifying trails to match their riding ability.

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    I was thinking of making a sign similar to Maad's sign but I agree with Epicrider, they were designed to be like this. Instead of using that wording, it would make more sense to state why modifying the trails is bad and what it will lead to (i.e. severe erosion, loss of access, etc.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECEGatorTuro View Post
    I was thinking of making a sign similar to Maad's sign but I agree with Epicrider, they were designed to be like this. Instead of using that wording, it would make more sense to state why modifying the trails is bad and what it will lead to (i.e. severe erosion, loss of access, etc.).
    less is more, something is better than nothing.

    'DONT MODIFY THE TRAIL, A$$HAT!' works for me

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    How about?

    "If we catch you, we'll split your nuts off the side of your face."
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    To play devil’s advocate, who said that the trails were DESIGNED to be challenging? Did you build the trails to be challenging? You or anyone else have no right to put up signs like this, only the land manager.

    Back in the 90’s when the trails were being developed; they were not as challenging as they are now. Most of the Hawes trails are not very well laid out andn have a lot of fall line sections. Over the years, use and erosion have taken a toll, and have created a rutted out mess. Take the trails how they are, and they will morph over time.
    Fair enough...but I think you miss my intent. I don't think many here would consider Hawes to be much of a challenge...but perhaps the person who is doing this, thinks they are. The sign is meant to convey to the person that there is intent beyond their own little world.

    Furthermore, I don't pretend to be the land manager....I simply provide the information for the land manager on the sign.

    Now...if you want to get into my kickers about putting up a sign that essentially says don't modify the trail and if you have questions...here is the land managers contact info....then tell me now.....surely you're not taking the devils advocate on that point????

    I took initiative to correct something and I stand by my decision. If it did any good or not, I don't know and that's open for debate. But as to any ill effects from what I did, I challenge you to state it.

    And as to your statement calling Hawes a rutted mess....I disagree. I think Hawes has some of the best flow of trails in the PHX area. Sure, after major storms it gets a bit dicey, but it always comes back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    The work day put together by chollaball over 4 years ago on mudflaps did a lot of good and the design held together for about 3 years....not bad considering it even weathered the snowpacalypse a few seasons back...
    I just noticed the cholla cactus that you guys placed half way up mud flaps is still there. Also there has been a lot of erosion in the rocky area about half way up the lower section.
    So when a bowling ball sized rock rolls on to a previously smoth section of trail, what's proper, move it or leave it?
    Better than most, not as good as some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav View Post
    I just noticed the cholla cactus that you guys placed half way up mud flaps is still there. Also there has been a lot of erosion in the rocky area about half way up the lower section.
    So when a bowling ball sized rock rolls on to a previously smoth section of trail, what's proper, move it or leave it?
    move it.
    i'm sure others have different opinions, but generally speaking there is a difference between maintenance and sanitation. Trails need love, but keeping the feel of the trail and not changing the level of difficulty is the key.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Trails need love, but keeping the feel of the trail and not changing the level of difficulty is the key.

    Someone tell Faildoc that.

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    Valid point Epic. This whole issue sure is gray. Like I said before, I kind of like some of the new alt lines. I am also a big fan of Secret, a Great alt line. At the same time, I don't like stupid.

    I still support a direct sign that let's folks know what is not appreciated by the community, instead of the land manager. I think the community is a bigger deterrent in this case. What do I know though.

    Side note, I rode Hawes yesterday, and the trails were fun. A little issue here or there is not going to stop that.

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    You know what....I'm going to categorically disagree with Epicrider here that Hawes is not laid out well....there are a few spots that are less than desirable.....but on the whole....that system has weathered a lot since I started riding and the OVERALL character has not changed.....one.....bit.....and for your time and money....it has it all. I challenge anyone to find a one hour section of trail in the PHX area that gives you a balance of climbs and descents, over a thirteen-hundred vert and flow. I can find 2 out of 3 in other places.....Natty is all climb...then descent (and that's a really rad descent....but it takes you 40 minutes just to climb) The McDowells can give you an hour loop that is all CrapAssMiniChunk Climb (credit goes to cholloball for the term) and Descent to give you the same vert....but you have to make your own flow up. Hawes gives you all three.....it's not an awesome climb....and it's not an awesome descent....but overall, it's pretty groovy.

    The passing seasons bring challenges.....the fall brings the cessation of the summer rains....rains which bless us with dynamic changes in wash crossings and erosion problems....but also give us buff bits of singletrack that allows us to lean our bikes over SUPER far......

    The entrance into winter brings, what I feel, the worst riding conditions possible...and is what precipitated this thread. This time is when the damage done by the summer monsoons and their tempestuous nature, lingers. No rain falls.....and the gully's just erode as the riders navigate them.....but hope is on the horizon.

    The winter rains bring a calmer type of precipitation that smooths those rough gully's back into the previous paths..... gully's slowly erode off the debris that was catastrophically deposited during the last of the monsoons and provide a nice injection of moisture to the ground that lets us all rip it at mach chicken once again.

    Then spring shows up....golden blooms of California Poppies.....green everywhere....it makes Hawes look even tighter....the Singletrack truly looks like singletrack again because the only path through the verdant horizon is the one cut by the optimal path through the decomposed granite alluvial fans that dominate Hawes.....

    But for every great season, there is a shoulder.....and once again we find ourselves without moisture....but this is the desert and we deal with it. However, given that the span of time between the Spring and the Summer rains is not preceded by the catastrophic storms of the Monsoon.....the old gal weathers it gracefully. It gets a bit washed out.....but not nearly as bad as the span of time between summer and the winter rains.

    And then it all happens...all over again....this has happened once before, and it'll happen once again.


    Like I said in previous posts....I rode this system 4-6 days a week for 4 plus years until I had to move away.......it's not that I thought Hawes was the best thing since sliced bread....but given an hour to ride.....it's about as good as it gets and will always draw blood unless you stay on top of it..... isn't the draw of blood from our corpus that gives us the sense of accomplishment after a ride when in fact, it never happened? Is it not the fear of pursuit and exhilaration at getting away with something that seems beyond our own bodies to make us fly, on air and two wheels....to the point of hurt, financial ruin and death in some cases?

    I'll close this out by saying.....if you're not excited by Hawes....you're doing it wrong.......translation:

    stop shuttling hawes with a double crown bike in armor and ride naked......Hawes gets plenty exciting then.

    stop modifying lines....because you're choosing acquiescence over challenge....and that in of itself....is choosing death rather than growth.

    stop b!tching about it all.......and this is something this author needs to listen to, most of all..... because b!tching about it all leaves one less time to live it all.......and living is what this deal is all about.
    Last edited by Maadjurguer; 12-11-2012 at 07:26 PM.

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    but given an hour to ride.....it's about as good as it gets
    I completely agree with the above. Hawes is not a 'destination' ride in my book...I'd never suggest someone drive from Tucson to come ride it but if you are fortunate enough to live nearby and need to burn 1 or 1.5 hours it is fantastic. Just within the the system proper you can ride Fenceline, up Cardiac, down DL to Secret, over to and up and down MIne and back to the canal or Las Sendas Fenceline if you wish.

    It'll test your lungs and get you some speed if you want, all the while providing amazing scenery and a feeling of being out in the open desert when in reality you are just minutes from a Walgreens.

    Love this place and feel fortunate to have it so close.

    As far as change goes, I've been riding out there since '03 and over-all it's the same trail system. I cut my mtb teeth out there on my Trek 4900 and I remember (fondly) walking a few spots. I learned a lot and 10 years later I still ride out there a few times month.

  71. #71
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    I have trimmed the fence line trail overgrowth several times. I do it because of the safety factor. blind corners and having to duck tree limbs, is asking for a head on collision. also, the one to two inch branches in spots at times can become spears or bludgeons to the day dreaming dirt rider. I ride through, and anything that touches me get's whacked off. but only enough to clear riders. Any one who passes while i'm trimming, always thanks me and gives me high fives, knuckle-bumps etc.but I never touch the trail itself. I have been riding hawes for sixteen years. I like the system and I KNOW when some one is messing with it. when people
    try to dumb it down, I KEEP riding the original line if possible. like I said in my previous post; RIDE THE MOUNTAIN! as is, not what you may think it should be.
    RAM speed: UP, UP, and away....!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Someone tell Faildoc that.
    so insightful and relevant to this thread...thanks Phil!

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    move it.
    i'm sure others have different opinions, but generally speaking there is a difference between maintenance and sanitation. Trails need love, but keeping the feel of the trail and not changing the level of difficulty is the key.
    I agree, and thats is what I do.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    ....rains which bless us with dynamic changes in wash crossings and erosion problems....but also give us buff bits of singletrack that allows us to lean our bikes over SUPER far......
    Amen! Glad you mentioned this.

    One of my favorite times to ride Hawes is after a nice rain when the trail is cool and tacky and my tires can really hook up.

    You should have x-posted this in Passion...it actually made me consider sneaking out the back stairwell at work and heading out there for a ride. Boss is back from lunch now though so it will have to be another day....
    I'm what Willis was talkin' about

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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    On a side note, how do you guys feel about trimming. I have trimmed a few things out there once in the last year or so. I kept hitting certain inside branches. The plants are growing and it makes sense to keep them under control, but do it sparingly.
    Trimming is good, keep it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    Also, why are we throwing roadies under the bus now?
    Because thats what "some" mountain bikers do. Don't worry, many of us do both. in fact, many of the best riders I know go both ways. On the bike, that is.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  76. #76
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    I spent 15 minutes today closing a line cut through the desert to avoid a sweeping "S" curve. This was on the very fast section (or the slow-ish climb if going the other way) between Saddle and the 3-way in the center of Hawes. It's clear to me why it's there. Speedsters found it faster to blaze through the desert and hook up with the trail 50 feet later.

    By the time I was done it looked like nobody had ever ridden that way. The only clue would be the many cactus legs someone else had strewn all over the place. I cleaned those up some, and left others in place. I've taken alternate lines on National many times so not sure how to feel about all this. Kind of a contradiction but in my defense the alt lines out at Natty are always over rock, not blazed through virgin ground like a freak'n horse cutting a switchback.

    Hope it stays this way.

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    Awesome! I know exactly where you aerial talking about. I will rehab an area this weekend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    Awesome! I know exactly where you aerial talking about. I will rehab an area this weekend.

    Every little bit helps.

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    Yep! if I WANTED to ride straight thru the corners I may as well stay on the road, keeping things as straight as possible
    I
    RAM speed: UP, UP, and away....!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    I spent 15 minutes today closing a line cut through the desert to avoid a sweeping "S" curve. This was on the very fast section (or the slow-ish climb if going the other way) between Saddle and the 3-way in the center of Hawes. It's clear to me why it's there. Speedsters found it faster to blaze through the desert and hook up with the trail 50 feet later.

    Hope it stays this way.
    Thank you!

    I'd noticed a line thru a couple corners while riding up that stretch a while back. Was a lot of cactus on the ground at the time, so wondered if the corner cuting was on purpose or if a lesson about keeping one's head up and eyes dow-trail was learned! ;-)

    A couple weeks after that, time was short so after Secret heading North, we turned left to head back to that intersection and ride that same stretch "down". Wow...was I surprised! That was damn good fun flicking the bike through all the corners (ORIGINAL ONES OF COURSE)! Had to be careful for oncoming riders, since it seems most ride "up" that section (heck...me too for 99.99% of rides!) Who would want to have that fun taken away with a straight line?!?!?

    2013 will mark my 20th year of riding Hawes. I'll have to strongly disagree that the trails were a mess, cut poorly, or that they are harder now. A few select sections have become "permanant" additions/modifications that are for the better. But overall, the trails are a bit easier now. They are wider. They seem to somehow "slip downhill" to get routed away from a couple areas of exposed rock.

    But overall, the system remains one of my favorites. Maad summed it up perfectly earlier in this thread. It is a gem. I'd be down for a work party to help keep it that way / return it to what it should be.

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    I'm down to help out with a Hawes trail day as well. Hawes proper was in bad shape when I was out there and I'm down with putting in some sweat as long as someone who knows what they're doing is calling the shots. I'm a noob and don't want to jack it up for everyone.

  82. #82
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    I was out there yesterday and I can say, like Maad hinted at, the recent winter rains have done wonders. The trail is packing in very nice and all of the short cutting that Im aware of has been closed and has remained closed for a week or so. Looks like we are getting some rain tonight/tomorrow. Lets have a trail work day out at Hawes this week. Get out there and ride it.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    I have noticed some good work out there too. I have not had a chance to move the Mine Climb rock back yet though. Soon!

    I think I am night riding Wednesday around 520ish if anyone wants to light up. Stage from mi casa 100 feet from some trail, entering around Hawse/Disneyland. Thinking out to Twisted Sister and back in a big loop. Then have a beer.

    I can't think of a big group project at Hawes. All I can think of is to throw some rocks in areas that are erroding into trail, and anything to make wide trail more narrow. Do we rehab the Mine alt line into oblivion? I agree that if a group thing happens we need someone with some experience.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    I have noticed some good work out there too. I have not had a chance to move the Mine Climb rock back yet though. Soon!

    I think I am night riding Wednesday around 520ish if anyone wants to light up. Stage from mi casa 100 feet from some trail, entering around Hawse/Disneyland. Thinking out to Twisted Sister and back in a big loop. Then have a beer.

    I can't think of a big group project at Hawes. All I can think of is to throw some rocks in areas that are erroding into trail, and anything to make wide trail more narrow. Do we rehab the Mine alt line into oblivion? I agree that if a group thing happens we need someone with some experience.
    Mine alt line? Where are you talking about?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    ^^If it's the alt line that skips you out of trudging thru the sandy wash on the way back to intersecting with Ridge...I'm kinda voting to make that one a keeper!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BullitTom View Post
    ^^If it's the alt line that skips you out of trudging thru the sandy wash on the way back to intersecting with Ridge...I'm kinda voting to make that one a keeper!
    That trail is Granite. When I think of Mine I think of the intersection with twisted sister down to Granite. Maybe we are all talking about different things.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by BullitTom View Post
    ^^If it's the alt line that skips you out of trudging thru the sandy wash on the way back to intersecting with Ridge...I'm kinda voting to make that one a keeper!
    I was thinking the alt "hi" line right before the sandy-ass steep left handed switchback coming down mine on the east end...right before what once called "The Cholla Pit of Death".

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    I was thinking the alt "hi" line right before the sandy-ass steep left handed switchback coming down mine on the east end...right before what once called "The Cholla Pit of Death".
    that hi line is awesome and has sustained. maybe its selfishness obscuring my objectivity but I dont see that as a bad line. Open to correction if I am wrong.

    and I have never fallen into that pit nyah nyah

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    that hi line is awesome and has sustained. maybe its selfishness obscuring my objectivity but I dont see that as a bad line. Open to correction if I am wrong.

    and I have never fallen into that pit nyah nyah
    I don't think it's a bad line. Gives us a choice. The lower line is really washed out and is tough to finesse your way around nowadays.

  90. #90
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    In truth....the high line is the original line.....it started coming back from obscurity a few years back after a really nasty monsoon that gouged the exit of the turn....thus making folks prefer toeing the line next to the pit of cholla vs. catching a wheel in the rut and cheese grattering your flesh on the crumbled granite, off camber slope.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    In truth....the high line is the original line.....it started coming back from obscurity a few years back after a really nasty monsoon that gouged the exit of the turn....thus making folks prefer toeing the line next to the pit of cholla vs. catching a wheel in the rut and cheese grattering your flesh on the crumbled granite, off camber slope.
    well then, my conscience is clear. thanks maad.

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    It is good that the old line is being restablished.

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    Correct. That high line is the original. To look down into the "Cholla Pit of Death" to your left as you make that original turn is a whole different perspective than the "easy/safe" inside line!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    That trail is Granite. When I think of Mine I think of the intersection with twisted sister down to Granite. Maybe we are all talking about different things.
    We're probably talking about the same thing. I just can't commit all the "new" names of the trails to memory!

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    New "Matterhorn" trail off Twister Sister??

    Hawes trail system is riding GREAT after the slow, steady rains!! Amazing how much more fun it is when you have some traction : ) One question though, does anyone know what's up with the "Matterhorn" trail that runs up the right side of the mountain near the start of Twisted Sister??? There's a nice wooden sign staked into the ground as if it was legally built and thought out but I don't think there's any organized trail building going on in the area. The trail is fairly faint and looks to run straight up the mountainside. Seems like it could be a downhill trail similar to the stuff over by the pit but that would be a bad spot for it since it literally drops right into TS. Anyway, if anyone knows what the deal is, let me know. Thanks!

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpetrocelli View Post
    One question though, does anyone know what's up with the "Matterhorn" trail that runs up the right side of the mountain near the start of Twisted Sister??? There's a nice wooden sign staked into the ground as if it was legally built and thought out but I don't think there's any organized trail building going on in the area. The trail is fairly faint and looks to run straight up the mountainside. Seems like it could be a downhill trail similar to the stuff over by the pit but that would be a bad spot for it since it literally drops right into TS. Anyway, if anyone knows what the deal is, let me know. Thanks!

    Mine Trail?


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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    Mine Trail?

    Your other right EDR.

    I think he's talking about the trail Maad was talking about in another thread a few weeks ago. I think this might be the same trail I've seen in satellite imagery. It seems to run up the ridge and drop to the south. If you look closely at satellite imagery, you can even see two sets of faint switchbacks which confirm to me the path is human made and not a water runoff. It goes on quite a ways until it disappears in the satellite view. I'm thinking of exploring it someday and see where it leads (if it even connects back to any system trails).

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpetrocelli View Post
    Hawes trail system is riding GREAT after the slow, steady rains!! Amazing how much more fun it is when you have some traction : ) One question though, does anyone know what's up with the "Matterhorn" trail that runs up the right side of the mountain near the start of Twisted Sister??? There's a nice wooden sign staked into the ground as if it was legally built and thought out but I don't think there's any organized trail building going on in the area. The trail is fairly faint and looks to run straight up the mountainside. Seems like it could be a downhill trail similar to the stuff over by the pit but that would be a bad spot for it since it literally drops right into TS. Anyway, if anyone knows what the deal is, let me know. Thanks!
    I HAB this many many years ago and ended up in the wash that is on secret..Ran into a goat and remains of an old pack trail. Don't know if someone is working on it but I doubt it would ever be climbable there are some rough tight spots going up
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  99. #99
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    ^^^^correct...it's the scar I was talking about earlier....

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECEGatorTuro View Post
    Your other right EDR.

    ).
    I've never noticed it, but it did take me a year to notice the 'secret' entrance as well. And I only found that cause I thought it looked like a good place to piss.

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