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  1. #1
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    Nightranger at Hawes now?

    Haven’t been out to Hawes for a couple weeks and was able to get a quick ride in this morning. WTF is happening out there? Several bypass/reroutes now and some really lame sanitation.

    First the wash on Granite Reef has been bypassed. That wash does suck but still. When heading down Disney Land (Saddle) and you take the second entrance to Secret the steep switchback about 30 yards in has been bypassed with a straight fall line route. There is also a Cardiac bypass now.

    While I struggle with the bypasses and reroutes at least the original lines are there. What really chaps my ass is the lame a$$ sanitation going on. Rocks are being removed all over the place. Rocks that aren’t even technical or difficult to maneuver over or around. I’d say an intermediate rider could easily maneuver these obstacles, even some better noobs could make it.

    The only advantage to removing these rocks, rocks that have been there for as long as I have been riding there, is to make the trail flow easier which got me thinking who would do this? The only logical answer I could come up with (I have no proof) is yet another negative side effect of Strava. Do you think people are smoothing out the trails to gain a few seconds here and there? I sure as hell hope not. Leave the trails alone !!!!
    Last edited by Douger-1; 12-07-2012 at 01:22 PM.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  2. #2
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    I rode Hawes on Thanksgiving after not being out there for a month or so and seems like everything was "smoother", almosted graded. Someone's doing a lot of work out there.
    Cholla cactus=nature's guard rail.

  3. #3
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    Bypassing Cardiac?!?! Weak. First the Tequila Tree, now this. Sheesh. Isn't there some master plan to install a formal trailhead & create new trails out there by the Forest Service?? Could they be doing the work??
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeskier46 View Post
    Bypassing Cardiac?!?! Weak. First the Tequila Tree, now this. Sheesh. Isn't there some master plan to install a formal trailhead & create new trails out there by the Forest Service?? Could they be doing the work??
    It bypasses the fall line climbing section with a less fall line, switchback route.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  5. #5
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    Wasn't traildoc just in town?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javelina View Post
    Wasn't traildoc just in town?
    He was but he was out playing around the Gold Canyon area, riding and "stuff".
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  7. #7
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    I would almost say this is one of the downsides with mtb catching on in popularity. The more folks getting into the sport, the more mainstream it is getting and the more folks are just going to do what they want to cut a corner or make it easer to flow for them. Some of the folks getting into the sport may have no outdoor experience, no anything about etiquette or just don’t give a sheet and they are so self centered that they will do whatever they want to make their little world the way they want it.

    There has been a lot of people cutting corners and trying to make “faster” lines in the T100 area so it’s everywhere. If it’s possible, find some large rocks/brush and shut the lines down

  8. #8
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    I did notice early summer that someone had sanitized the crap out of the switchback descent on the Saddle trail. However Mother Nature didn't appreciate that during monsoon season and it looks like she restored some order. I haven't ridden Cardiac in a long time so I haven't seen any changes there but I do agree someone is definitely destroying the character of the trail at Hawes and it's thoroughly disappointing.

  9. #9
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    Actually, I believe the Night Ranger bought a 2nd home in west Mesa last year or the year before. No joke.

    edit to add the thread: Question for Phoenix XC riders who are also runners

  10. #10
    My other ride is your mom
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    I think I'm still out of vitrol to spew having used up too much last month...so I'll just say it's a pathetic person who has to dumb down Hawes.

  11. #11
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    where x-actly does the cardiac bypass start? is it before the initial ascent, or does it branch off after the climbing begins? I was at the MMP race loops the other day, and the second drop on the tech trail, as well as the "step" on the long loop now have official bypass trails built into the system
    I stand by the creed of "RIDE THE MOUNTAIN" IF YOU CANNOT? improve, or walk-it.
    It really should be that simple.
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  12. #12
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    I was out there today. Fenceline, up Cardiac, down Disneyland to second Secret entrance, up to Mine Trail an down the backside and climbed out of that taking the right hand steep up and down all the swoopy stuff to the canal...road ride/west side canal dirt track back.

    There are many shortcuts, straight line shoots across the virgin desert all over the place. The washes have become unrideable in many places like down in Secret and coming back from the bottom of Mine. I suspect this may be a reason. Lots of other shorts cuts as well that cut the corners that scrub speed, cutting the twisties that can only be done for speed the way I see it. I think uncaring d/h'rs are part of the problem as well....no offence to the good folk who like to d/h at Hawes.

  13. #13
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    One of my goals has been to fully clean Goat Camp in the White Tanks. Really tough. To help, I rented paving equipment. Once the pavement dries I think I can clean it. And it would be rideable by the masses. But I don't think this is the thread to talk about this in.

    But seriously, this isn't cool. Hawes is great, and definitely does not need sanitizing. There is a nice trail system up here where someone built some trails (yes, legal) and they won't even ride them due to it being too difficult. They actually built trails that they won't ride, but others can! Crazy thought.

    I'd rather sell my bike than dumb down trails.

  14. #14
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    The majority of the new lines I saw were not for ease of riding but rather to avoid a wash, or to avoid a corner (which really chaps my hide as it widens the trail and screams "MTBING!)......hence my suspicion of newbie d/h'rs. Other cuts are to just save time, like the one that goes from the middle of Hawes east of the 3-way over to Cardiac. That can be a time saver both up or down and if properly cut and routed may not actually be a bad idea since there is obviously a desire for such a cut. It's just that in it's current state it's a mess and wreaks of trail blazing. Not good.

  15. #15
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    Rode yesterday for the first time in a couple of weeks. I also noticed the trail had changed dramatically. Seems to me the area is seeing a lot of riding since the weather has improved. I will agree with Douger someone has been cutting new lines. What really gets me is the excessive "skidding" that is going on, especially on Secret. Come on, I don't see the need to skid all over the place. Use your brakes properly and learn how to ride.

  16. #16
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    I noticed the Cardiac cut today while running the Hawes system and I was bummed. It took me probably 20+ attempts at riding the entire "double" Cardiac climb before making it without any dabs but, man, was I stoked when I finally made it!! Granted, the trail has taken a beaten from storms and over-brakers which has made it pretty tough to clear. And the bypass (I ran it today to see what was up!) is actually not too ghetto, BUT I think keeping the integrity of Cardiac is important. If the original route is too tough, just keep trying! I thought FINALLY making sections you couldn't make "back in the day" was one of the things that made mountain biking so addicting?! Progress!!!!

    As for blaming Strava for Hawes cuts, I doubt that's the issue unless people think it's a good idea to cut a new trail just to land a few notches below the KOM of a section (I know the KOM of most Hawes sections and he does NOT cut trails.) Personally, I think people just get frustrated because a section is thrashed and they want a smoother/easier line. It's a lack of patience and perseverance, not Strava.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    The washes have become unrideable in many places like down in Secret and coming back from the bottom of Mine. I suspect this may be a reason.
    The two you mention here are the only two I've noticed. The one at the top/high point on secret has been there for a while, at least a year. I like it better than going up (east) in the wash. It's more fun and a bit of a challenge. Secret has only been a trail for 4 years now. I don't know the guy (his name) that built it, but I did talk to him while it was being built. It is an illegal trail in the first place, so why shouldn't it be rerouted for the better? I don't see this as dumbing down, but an improvement.

    The one on the way back from the mine trail is a route around the super sand pit. I hope that we will get some light rain someday that will firm up the sand so that pit will be ridable again.

    The trail that everyone calls cardiac is actually an under ground cable run running up to the towers. It was never meant to be a mountain bike trail, and will never be pristine single track. That being said, I have recently ridden that trail in both directions, and I did not see any new switchbacks. Just because I didn't see it doesn't mean it's not there, I just didn't see it. That trail/run is ever changing with each season. riders will naturally find routes around the ruts as they form. I've seen it change many times, and expect to see it continue to do so.

    If you think Hawes is getting too sanitized, just wait for the next monsoon season, it'll get F'd up again.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav View Post
    The two you mention here are the only two I've noticed. The one at the top/high point on secret has been there for a while, at least a year. I like it better than going up (east) in the wash. It's more fun and a bit of a challenge. Secret has only been a trail for 4 years now. I don't know the guy (his name) that built it, but I did talk to him while it was being built. It is an illegal trail in the first place, so why shouldn't it be rerouted for the better? I don't see this as dumbing down, but an improvement.

    The one on the way back from the mine trail is a route around the super sand pit. I hope that we will get some light rain someday that will firm up the sand so that pit will be ridable again.

    The trail that everyone calls cardiac is actually an under ground cable run running up to the towers. It was never meant to be a mountain bike trail, and will never be pristine single track. That being said, I have recently ridden that trail in both directions, and I did not see any new switchbacks. That trail/run is ever changing with each season. riders will naturally find routes around the ruts as they form. I've seen it change many times, and expect to see it continue to do so.

    If you think Hawes is getting to sanitized, just wait for the next monsoon season, it'll get F'd up again.
    Ya, the Secret wash was never a great option but it has worked for years. it's just that now it' over-run with deep sand. The cut-across is valid but not an ideal run. But I didn't work on it so I have little to say.

    The cut turns/switchbacks I speak of are on other areas. Over the past months they've come and gone. the ones I most remember are on the way down (heading west) from the point where if riding down Disneyland and across the wash up the hill you come to a "T". Option one being continue on to Mine, option two you take a left and bomb down that section to the 3-way. I have seen severe cuts to the turns (read straight lines omitting the curves) coming down that area. The only reason for those would be to maintain speed. None of these things are to make the trail easier.

    Going up Cardiac/Mudflaps is tough now. There is a certain section on the steeps with a lot of sand. I made it today, but last week had to dismount. It's tough always b/c of the climb but with the extra sand traction at spots is a real challenge. A lot of the area towards the houses was built for underground or overhead cable/wire. I think much of TRW is the same way. Still makes for great trail!
    Last edited by eatdrinkride; 12-07-2012 at 10:35 PM.

  19. #19
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    I was out at Hawes today and talked to some guys while riding on Secret who said the guy who built Secret did the reroute around the wash. The sand got really deep supposedly and he got tired of raking it out. It looks like the original route is still there if you want to trudge the sand. Personally I don't mind sandy washes. They remind me of riding in the snow.

    I've been riding out there pretty regularly for the last 6 months and what I've seen is a LOT of damage was done by the rains this winter/fall and the trails have gradually evolved due to use since then. A lot of areas had some really deep sand from the rains which probably caused some of the corner cutting.

    As far as other reroutes like the one around Cardiac... I didn't see that one but I would rather see a reroute around an obstacle or climb for those that can't ride it or don't want to than the obstacle being dumbed down, provided the original route stays intact also. The more the merrier.
    While coming back from Twisted on Saddle I did see a trail that goes off the the right , right as you get to the steep switchback climb. It doesn't look like it makes it any easier so either it's always been there and I didn't notice it or the DH kiddies built it. It looks like it goes straight up the hill.

    To the people that haven't been out there in a while I just think most of the "smoothness" on the main trails is from the rains and it's happened over time since then. By summer it'll be back the way it was mostly.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    I was out at Hawes today and talked to some guys while riding on Secret who said the guy who built Secret did the reroute around the wash. The sand got really deep supposedly and he got tired of raking it out. It looks like the original route is still there if you want to trudge the sand. Personally I don't mind sandy washes. They remind me of riding in the snow.

    I've been riding out there pretty regularly for the last 6 months and what I've seen is a LOT of damage was done by the rains this winter/fall and the trails have gradually evolved due to use since then. A lot of areas had some really deep sand from the rains which probably caused some of the corner cutting.

    As far as other reroutes like the one around Cardiac... I didn't see that one but I would rather see a reroute around an obstacle or climb for those that can't ride it or don't want to than the obstacle being dumbed down, provided the original route stays intact also. The more the merrier.
    While coming back from Twisted on Saddle I did see a trail that goes off the the right , right as you get to the steep switchback climb. It doesn't look like it makes it any easier so either it's always been there and I didn't notice it or the DH kiddies built it. It looks like it goes straight up the hill.

    To the people that haven't been out there in a while I just think most of the "smoothness" on the main trails is from the rains and it's happened over time since then. By summer it'll be back the way it was mostly.
    I found another one today. If you are heading north on secret there is a little open area just prior to heading down to the sandy wash. I stopped there to take a break and looked off to my left to see a small cairn and a single drag mark of a locked rear wheel heading off into the desert. I knocked down the cairn and kicked dirt on the skid mark. I closed two others as well. Someone is doing a ton of damage out there. Sad
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  21. #21
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    Blame Red Bull. Blame the culture. Free riders are worshiped as the elite in the sport. It's perfectly reasonable that people would want to go "Where the trail ends" and carve some fresh tracks. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I found another one today. If you are heading north on secret there is a little open area just prior to heading down to the sandy wash. I stopped there to take a break and looked off to my left to see a small cairn and a single drag mark of a locked rear wheel heading off into the desert. I knocked down the cairn and kicked dirt on the skid mark. I closed two others as well. Someone is doing a ton of damage out there. Sad
    For what it's worth, Secret is an illegal trail itself. It turned out pretty damn good. I doubt it's the same guy building the rogue DH trails. With so many people out there it's hard to imagine
    someone can build trails and go unnoticed.

  23. #23
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    Mountain Biking is being overrun by cry baby pussies.

    They live in the desert but they want smooth Sun Valley Idaho style riding.

    In the end the desert will always come back rocky as usual.
    Singin' I love hike a bike!!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZTtripper View Post
    Mountain Biking is being overrun by cry baby pussies.

    They live in the desert but they want smooth Sun Valley Idaho style riding.

    In the end the desert will always come back rocky as usual.
    Aside from new trails being built, I haven't seen any smoothing of existing trails.

  25. #25
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    Sanitization out there:

    I think it is a combo. After a good rain, some embedded rocks loosen up, then a horse or some bumps them. A month later it is dislodged. Then someone pitches it. I try to put them back.

    There is a cleaning crew too. Switchbacks have been sanitized twice in the last few months. The water bar added was good though. There is a little here and there too. The worst for me though is this big rock in the middle of trail when climbing mine just a bit after the lower climbs. It weighs over 100 pounds and was going no where. Someone rolled it down the hill. I rolled it back. Well it is now gone again. I will be putting it back too. The rock was not a big deal and did not really slow you down. I just don't get it.

    Corner cutting is so so lame. I will try to line rock and cactus where I see it. Need to stop pedaling a bit more. Strava is not to blame for this stuff. People should stop blaming a good training tool for everything under the sun.

    I am torn by the new lines. I actually like the lines at end of mine and cardiac. That soft sand wash is ridiculous right now. I have done it, but few will. I would like to see the mess of lines disappear there. Not sure if it is right, but the thought crossed my mind to put some rocks in the way to divert traffic on to the new line. Then try to smooth out the others. Not sure that would be right though?

    That cardiac line should either be made better, or destroyed. If we put rocks and cactus all over it, my guess is it will be cleaned. USFS approval for anything is a crazy amount of work. If it is not reinforced on the side hill, and the straight line up it is not curved a few times to incorporate water diversion, it will be a terrible mess real fast.

    The whole new line dilemma is a tough one for sure. Not even sure if this post or thread should even be here.

    Ideally, the only trail work should be to manage erosion and trails getting to wider.

    I am still thinking about putting up a few laminated signs out there stating, no new trails, don't sanitize/move the rocks, and no cutting corners. Any thoughts on this?
    Last edited by SugarHigh; 12-10-2012 at 07:10 AM.

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