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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    Cholla, Thanks, um I think? I think Maad brings a cool perspective to this site and the AZ MTB community. Anyone who creates a geo riddle to find Tequilla gets

    TD, No clue how to get a pdf. I got it from a local moto site, and they got it from a site called ktmtalk.com. It looks to be from the CO area I am guessing. It would be easy to create, except for the cool gear skull and cross implements logo.
    I believe that sign is from the Fruita/Grand Junction area. They've had their own issues with sanitizers modifying trails to match their riding ability.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I see no issue with trimming. Actually think its necessary. If a shrub goes untrimmed it will eventually encroach on the trail pushing it further and further out. I have trimmed the fence line trail a few times myself. Cant imagine any trail user likes ducking trees.
    Douger:

    I definitely think trimming trails to about 24" from the center line is no big deal. If you have a trail with exposure and you want riders off the outside edge to preserve the tread I could go for a shorter length form the outside edge, like maybe 20" from the center line and even greater length on the inside line.

  3. #53
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    I have found that people will always modify stuff to suit their needs no matter how much work was put in to make trails / features. I gave up in NRA some time back as it was just pointless to maintain or add stuff because others would always change things to suit their needs.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  4. #54
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    Well shucks....thx....but I think Cholla is refering to a sign I've intermittently put up in laminated form over the past few years when things like this have happened.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    Well shucks....thx....but I think Cholla is refering to a sign I've intermittently put up in laminated form over the past few years when things like this have happened.
    no....I was referring to the hissy fit about it. truly that was epic!

  6. #56
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    Ohh...you mean the boulder....that was just plain hard-headedness

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    Ohh...you mean the boulder....that was just plain hard-headedness
    it still makes me vijayjay bristle!

    Open letter to the person simplifying Hawes - Mtbr Forums

  8. #58
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    I like my sign of ridicule better than Maad's call the Ranger. If only he put that one up years ago, we would of had no problems all this time ...

  9. #59
    Just another half mile...
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    To play devil’s advocate, who said that the trails were DESIGNED to be challenging? Did you build the trails to be challenging? You or anyone else have no right to put up signs like this, only the land manager.

    Back in the 90’s when the trails were being developed; they were not as challenging as they are now. Most of the Hawes trails are not very well laid out andn have a lot of fall line sections. Over the years, use and erosion have taken a toll, and have created a rutted out mess. Take the trails how they are, and they will morph over time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    Well shucks....thx....but I think Cholla is refering to a sign I've intermittently put up in laminated form over the past few years when things like this have happened.

  10. #60
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    You are correct, this sign is posted at the top of the Free Lunch trail in Grand Junction. Free lunch is a unique, specically design experts-only “Freeride” trail recently constructed in the popular Lunch loops area. The Hawes trails were not specifically designed to be challenging, poor design and weather created a rutted out mess out there.


    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I believe that sign is from the Fruita/Grand Junction area. They've had their own issues with sanitizers modifying trails to match their riding ability.

  11. #61
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    I was thinking of making a sign similar to Maad's sign but I agree with Epicrider, they were designed to be like this. Instead of using that wording, it would make more sense to state why modifying the trails is bad and what it will lead to (i.e. severe erosion, loss of access, etc.).

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECEGatorTuro View Post
    I was thinking of making a sign similar to Maad's sign but I agree with Epicrider, they were designed to be like this. Instead of using that wording, it would make more sense to state why modifying the trails is bad and what it will lead to (i.e. severe erosion, loss of access, etc.).
    less is more, something is better than nothing.

    'DONT MODIFY THE TRAIL, A$$HAT!' works for me

  13. #63
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    How about?

    "If we catch you, we'll split your nuts off the side of your face."
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    To play devil’s advocate, who said that the trails were DESIGNED to be challenging? Did you build the trails to be challenging? You or anyone else have no right to put up signs like this, only the land manager.

    Back in the 90’s when the trails were being developed; they were not as challenging as they are now. Most of the Hawes trails are not very well laid out andn have a lot of fall line sections. Over the years, use and erosion have taken a toll, and have created a rutted out mess. Take the trails how they are, and they will morph over time.
    Fair enough...but I think you miss my intent. I don't think many here would consider Hawes to be much of a challenge...but perhaps the person who is doing this, thinks they are. The sign is meant to convey to the person that there is intent beyond their own little world.

    Furthermore, I don't pretend to be the land manager....I simply provide the information for the land manager on the sign.

    Now...if you want to get into my kickers about putting up a sign that essentially says don't modify the trail and if you have questions...here is the land managers contact info....then tell me now.....surely you're not taking the devils advocate on that point????

    I took initiative to correct something and I stand by my decision. If it did any good or not, I don't know and that's open for debate. But as to any ill effects from what I did, I challenge you to state it.

    And as to your statement calling Hawes a rutted mess....I disagree. I think Hawes has some of the best flow of trails in the PHX area. Sure, after major storms it gets a bit dicey, but it always comes back.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    The work day put together by chollaball over 4 years ago on mudflaps did a lot of good and the design held together for about 3 years....not bad considering it even weathered the snowpacalypse a few seasons back...
    I just noticed the cholla cactus that you guys placed half way up mud flaps is still there. Also there has been a lot of erosion in the rocky area about half way up the lower section.
    So when a bowling ball sized rock rolls on to a previously smoth section of trail, what's proper, move it or leave it?
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav View Post
    I just noticed the cholla cactus that you guys placed half way up mud flaps is still there. Also there has been a lot of erosion in the rocky area about half way up the lower section.
    So when a bowling ball sized rock rolls on to a previously smoth section of trail, what's proper, move it or leave it?
    move it.
    i'm sure others have different opinions, but generally speaking there is a difference between maintenance and sanitation. Trails need love, but keeping the feel of the trail and not changing the level of difficulty is the key.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Trails need love, but keeping the feel of the trail and not changing the level of difficulty is the key.

    Someone tell Faildoc that.

  18. #68
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    Valid point Epic. This whole issue sure is gray. Like I said before, I kind of like some of the new alt lines. I am also a big fan of Secret, a Great alt line. At the same time, I don't like stupid.

    I still support a direct sign that let's folks know what is not appreciated by the community, instead of the land manager. I think the community is a bigger deterrent in this case. What do I know though.

    Side note, I rode Hawes yesterday, and the trails were fun. A little issue here or there is not going to stop that.

  19. #69
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    You know what....I'm going to categorically disagree with Epicrider here that Hawes is not laid out well....there are a few spots that are less than desirable.....but on the whole....that system has weathered a lot since I started riding and the OVERALL character has not changed.....one.....bit.....and for your time and money....it has it all. I challenge anyone to find a one hour section of trail in the PHX area that gives you a balance of climbs and descents, over a thirteen-hundred vert and flow. I can find 2 out of 3 in other places.....Natty is all climb...then descent (and that's a really rad descent....but it takes you 40 minutes just to climb) The McDowells can give you an hour loop that is all CrapAssMiniChunk Climb (credit goes to cholloball for the term) and Descent to give you the same vert....but you have to make your own flow up. Hawes gives you all three.....it's not an awesome climb....and it's not an awesome descent....but overall, it's pretty groovy.

    The passing seasons bring challenges.....the fall brings the cessation of the summer rains....rains which bless us with dynamic changes in wash crossings and erosion problems....but also give us buff bits of singletrack that allows us to lean our bikes over SUPER far......

    The entrance into winter brings, what I feel, the worst riding conditions possible...and is what precipitated this thread. This time is when the damage done by the summer monsoons and their tempestuous nature, lingers. No rain falls.....and the gully's just erode as the riders navigate them.....but hope is on the horizon.

    The winter rains bring a calmer type of precipitation that smooths those rough gully's back into the previous paths..... gully's slowly erode off the debris that was catastrophically deposited during the last of the monsoons and provide a nice injection of moisture to the ground that lets us all rip it at mach chicken once again.

    Then spring shows up....golden blooms of California Poppies.....green everywhere....it makes Hawes look even tighter....the Singletrack truly looks like singletrack again because the only path through the verdant horizon is the one cut by the optimal path through the decomposed granite alluvial fans that dominate Hawes.....

    But for every great season, there is a shoulder.....and once again we find ourselves without moisture....but this is the desert and we deal with it. However, given that the span of time between the Spring and the Summer rains is not preceded by the catastrophic storms of the Monsoon.....the old gal weathers it gracefully. It gets a bit washed out.....but not nearly as bad as the span of time between summer and the winter rains.

    And then it all happens...all over again....this has happened once before, and it'll happen once again.


    Like I said in previous posts....I rode this system 4-6 days a week for 4 plus years until I had to move away.......it's not that I thought Hawes was the best thing since sliced bread....but given an hour to ride.....it's about as good as it gets and will always draw blood unless you stay on top of it..... isn't the draw of blood from our corpus that gives us the sense of accomplishment after a ride when in fact, it never happened? Is it not the fear of pursuit and exhilaration at getting away with something that seems beyond our own bodies to make us fly, on air and two wheels....to the point of hurt, financial ruin and death in some cases?

    I'll close this out by saying.....if you're not excited by Hawes....you're doing it wrong.......translation:

    stop shuttling hawes with a double crown bike in armor and ride naked......Hawes gets plenty exciting then.

    stop modifying lines....because you're choosing acquiescence over challenge....and that in of itself....is choosing death rather than growth.

    stop b!tching about it all.......and this is something this author needs to listen to, most of all..... because b!tching about it all leaves one less time to live it all.......and living is what this deal is all about.
    Last edited by Maadjurguer; 12-11-2012 at 07:26 PM.

  20. #70
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    but given an hour to ride.....it's about as good as it gets
    I completely agree with the above. Hawes is not a 'destination' ride in my book...I'd never suggest someone drive from Tucson to come ride it but if you are fortunate enough to live nearby and need to burn 1 or 1.5 hours it is fantastic. Just within the the system proper you can ride Fenceline, up Cardiac, down DL to Secret, over to and up and down MIne and back to the canal or Las Sendas Fenceline if you wish.

    It'll test your lungs and get you some speed if you want, all the while providing amazing scenery and a feeling of being out in the open desert when in reality you are just minutes from a Walgreens.

    Love this place and feel fortunate to have it so close.

    As far as change goes, I've been riding out there since '03 and over-all it's the same trail system. I cut my mtb teeth out there on my Trek 4900 and I remember (fondly) walking a few spots. I learned a lot and 10 years later I still ride out there a few times month.

  21. #71
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    I have trimmed the fence line trail overgrowth several times. I do it because of the safety factor. blind corners and having to duck tree limbs, is asking for a head on collision. also, the one to two inch branches in spots at times can become spears or bludgeons to the day dreaming dirt rider. I ride through, and anything that touches me get's whacked off. but only enough to clear riders. Any one who passes while i'm trimming, always thanks me and gives me high fives, knuckle-bumps etc.but I never touch the trail itself. I have been riding hawes for sixteen years. I like the system and I KNOW when some one is messing with it. when people
    try to dumb it down, I KEEP riding the original line if possible. like I said in my previous post; RIDE THE MOUNTAIN! as is, not what you may think it should be.
    RAM speed: UP, UP, and away....!

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Someone tell Faildoc that.
    so insightful and relevant to this thread...thanks Phil!

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    move it.
    i'm sure others have different opinions, but generally speaking there is a difference between maintenance and sanitation. Trails need love, but keeping the feel of the trail and not changing the level of difficulty is the key.
    I agree, and thats is what I do.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    ....rains which bless us with dynamic changes in wash crossings and erosion problems....but also give us buff bits of singletrack that allows us to lean our bikes over SUPER far......
    Amen! Glad you mentioned this.

    One of my favorite times to ride Hawes is after a nice rain when the trail is cool and tacky and my tires can really hook up.

    You should have x-posted this in Passion...it actually made me consider sneaking out the back stairwell at work and heading out there for a ride. Boss is back from lunch now though so it will have to be another day....
    I'm what Willis was talkin' about

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    On a side note, how do you guys feel about trimming. I have trimmed a few things out there once in the last year or so. I kept hitting certain inside branches. The plants are growing and it makes sense to keep them under control, but do it sparingly.
    Trimming is good, keep it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    Also, why are we throwing roadies under the bus now?
    Because thats what "some" mountain bikers do. Don't worry, many of us do both. in fact, many of the best riders I know go both ways. On the bike, that is.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  26. #76
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    I spent 15 minutes today closing a line cut through the desert to avoid a sweeping "S" curve. This was on the very fast section (or the slow-ish climb if going the other way) between Saddle and the 3-way in the center of Hawes. It's clear to me why it's there. Speedsters found it faster to blaze through the desert and hook up with the trail 50 feet later.

    By the time I was done it looked like nobody had ever ridden that way. The only clue would be the many cactus legs someone else had strewn all over the place. I cleaned those up some, and left others in place. I've taken alternate lines on National many times so not sure how to feel about all this. Kind of a contradiction but in my defense the alt lines out at Natty are always over rock, not blazed through virgin ground like a freak'n horse cutting a switchback.

    Hope it stays this way.

  27. #77
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    Awesome! I know exactly where you aerial talking about. I will rehab an area this weekend.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    Awesome! I know exactly where you aerial talking about. I will rehab an area this weekend.

    Every little bit helps.

  29. #79
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    Yep! if I WANTED to ride straight thru the corners I may as well stay on the road, keeping things as straight as possible
    I
    RAM speed: UP, UP, and away....!

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    I spent 15 minutes today closing a line cut through the desert to avoid a sweeping "S" curve. This was on the very fast section (or the slow-ish climb if going the other way) between Saddle and the 3-way in the center of Hawes. It's clear to me why it's there. Speedsters found it faster to blaze through the desert and hook up with the trail 50 feet later.

    Hope it stays this way.
    Thank you!

    I'd noticed a line thru a couple corners while riding up that stretch a while back. Was a lot of cactus on the ground at the time, so wondered if the corner cuting was on purpose or if a lesson about keeping one's head up and eyes dow-trail was learned! ;-)

    A couple weeks after that, time was short so after Secret heading North, we turned left to head back to that intersection and ride that same stretch "down". Wow...was I surprised! That was damn good fun flicking the bike through all the corners (ORIGINAL ONES OF COURSE)! Had to be careful for oncoming riders, since it seems most ride "up" that section (heck...me too for 99.99% of rides!) Who would want to have that fun taken away with a straight line?!?!?

    2013 will mark my 20th year of riding Hawes. I'll have to strongly disagree that the trails were a mess, cut poorly, or that they are harder now. A few select sections have become "permanant" additions/modifications that are for the better. But overall, the trails are a bit easier now. They are wider. They seem to somehow "slip downhill" to get routed away from a couple areas of exposed rock.

    But overall, the system remains one of my favorites. Maad summed it up perfectly earlier in this thread. It is a gem. I'd be down for a work party to help keep it that way / return it to what it should be.

  31. #81
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    I'm down to help out with a Hawes trail day as well. Hawes proper was in bad shape when I was out there and I'm down with putting in some sweat as long as someone who knows what they're doing is calling the shots. I'm a noob and don't want to jack it up for everyone.

  32. #82
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    I was out there yesterday and I can say, like Maad hinted at, the recent winter rains have done wonders. The trail is packing in very nice and all of the short cutting that Im aware of has been closed and has remained closed for a week or so. Looks like we are getting some rain tonight/tomorrow. Lets have a trail work day out at Hawes this week. Get out there and ride it.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  33. #83
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    I have noticed some good work out there too. I have not had a chance to move the Mine Climb rock back yet though. Soon!

    I think I am night riding Wednesday around 520ish if anyone wants to light up. Stage from mi casa 100 feet from some trail, entering around Hawse/Disneyland. Thinking out to Twisted Sister and back in a big loop. Then have a beer.

    I can't think of a big group project at Hawes. All I can think of is to throw some rocks in areas that are erroding into trail, and anything to make wide trail more narrow. Do we rehab the Mine alt line into oblivion? I agree that if a group thing happens we need someone with some experience.

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    I have noticed some good work out there too. I have not had a chance to move the Mine Climb rock back yet though. Soon!

    I think I am night riding Wednesday around 520ish if anyone wants to light up. Stage from mi casa 100 feet from some trail, entering around Hawse/Disneyland. Thinking out to Twisted Sister and back in a big loop. Then have a beer.

    I can't think of a big group project at Hawes. All I can think of is to throw some rocks in areas that are erroding into trail, and anything to make wide trail more narrow. Do we rehab the Mine alt line into oblivion? I agree that if a group thing happens we need someone with some experience.
    Mine alt line? Where are you talking about?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    ^^If it's the alt line that skips you out of trudging thru the sandy wash on the way back to intersecting with Ridge...I'm kinda voting to make that one a keeper!

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by BullitTom View Post
    ^^If it's the alt line that skips you out of trudging thru the sandy wash on the way back to intersecting with Ridge...I'm kinda voting to make that one a keeper!
    That trail is Granite. When I think of Mine I think of the intersection with twisted sister down to Granite. Maybe we are all talking about different things.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by BullitTom View Post
    ^^If it's the alt line that skips you out of trudging thru the sandy wash on the way back to intersecting with Ridge...I'm kinda voting to make that one a keeper!
    I was thinking the alt "hi" line right before the sandy-ass steep left handed switchback coming down mine on the east end...right before what once called "The Cholla Pit of Death".

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    I was thinking the alt "hi" line right before the sandy-ass steep left handed switchback coming down mine on the east end...right before what once called "The Cholla Pit of Death".
    that hi line is awesome and has sustained. maybe its selfishness obscuring my objectivity but I dont see that as a bad line. Open to correction if I am wrong.

    and I have never fallen into that pit nyah nyah

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    that hi line is awesome and has sustained. maybe its selfishness obscuring my objectivity but I dont see that as a bad line. Open to correction if I am wrong.

    and I have never fallen into that pit nyah nyah
    I don't think it's a bad line. Gives us a choice. The lower line is really washed out and is tough to finesse your way around nowadays.

  40. #90
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    In truth....the high line is the original line.....it started coming back from obscurity a few years back after a really nasty monsoon that gouged the exit of the turn....thus making folks prefer toeing the line next to the pit of cholla vs. catching a wheel in the rut and cheese grattering your flesh on the crumbled granite, off camber slope.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    In truth....the high line is the original line.....it started coming back from obscurity a few years back after a really nasty monsoon that gouged the exit of the turn....thus making folks prefer toeing the line next to the pit of cholla vs. catching a wheel in the rut and cheese grattering your flesh on the crumbled granite, off camber slope.
    well then, my conscience is clear. thanks maad.

  42. #92
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    It is good that the old line is being restablished.

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    Correct. That high line is the original. To look down into the "Cholla Pit of Death" to your left as you make that original turn is a whole different perspective than the "easy/safe" inside line!

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    That trail is Granite. When I think of Mine I think of the intersection with twisted sister down to Granite. Maybe we are all talking about different things.
    We're probably talking about the same thing. I just can't commit all the "new" names of the trails to memory!

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    New "Matterhorn" trail off Twister Sister??

    Hawes trail system is riding GREAT after the slow, steady rains!! Amazing how much more fun it is when you have some traction : ) One question though, does anyone know what's up with the "Matterhorn" trail that runs up the right side of the mountain near the start of Twisted Sister??? There's a nice wooden sign staked into the ground as if it was legally built and thought out but I don't think there's any organized trail building going on in the area. The trail is fairly faint and looks to run straight up the mountainside. Seems like it could be a downhill trail similar to the stuff over by the pit but that would be a bad spot for it since it literally drops right into TS. Anyway, if anyone knows what the deal is, let me know. Thanks!

  46. #96
    EDR
    Reputation: eatdrinkride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpetrocelli View Post
    One question though, does anyone know what's up with the "Matterhorn" trail that runs up the right side of the mountain near the start of Twisted Sister??? There's a nice wooden sign staked into the ground as if it was legally built and thought out but I don't think there's any organized trail building going on in the area. The trail is fairly faint and looks to run straight up the mountainside. Seems like it could be a downhill trail similar to the stuff over by the pit but that would be a bad spot for it since it literally drops right into TS. Anyway, if anyone knows what the deal is, let me know. Thanks!

    Mine Trail?


  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    Mine Trail?

    Your other right EDR.

    I think he's talking about the trail Maad was talking about in another thread a few weeks ago. I think this might be the same trail I've seen in satellite imagery. It seems to run up the ridge and drop to the south. If you look closely at satellite imagery, you can even see two sets of faint switchbacks which confirm to me the path is human made and not a water runoff. It goes on quite a ways until it disappears in the satellite view. I'm thinking of exploring it someday and see where it leads (if it even connects back to any system trails).

  48. #98
    dirt visionary
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpetrocelli View Post
    Hawes trail system is riding GREAT after the slow, steady rains!! Amazing how much more fun it is when you have some traction : ) One question though, does anyone know what's up with the "Matterhorn" trail that runs up the right side of the mountain near the start of Twisted Sister??? There's a nice wooden sign staked into the ground as if it was legally built and thought out but I don't think there's any organized trail building going on in the area. The trail is fairly faint and looks to run straight up the mountainside. Seems like it could be a downhill trail similar to the stuff over by the pit but that would be a bad spot for it since it literally drops right into TS. Anyway, if anyone knows what the deal is, let me know. Thanks!
    I HAB this many many years ago and ended up in the wash that is on secret..Ran into a goat and remains of an old pack trail. Don't know if someone is working on it but I doubt it would ever be climbable there are some rough tight spots going up
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  49. #99
    My other ride is your mom
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    ^^^^correct...it's the scar I was talking about earlier....

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECEGatorTuro View Post
    Your other right EDR.

    ).
    I've never noticed it, but it did take me a year to notice the 'secret' entrance as well. And I only found that cause I thought it looked like a good place to piss.

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