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  1. #1
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    New Sedona Aerie Trail in Jeopardy

    Thanks to the help of the mountain biking communities of Prescott, Phoenix and Sedona the new very scenic Aerie Forest Service approved trail is over 75% complete and the current constructed trail is ready to ride by advanced intermediate riders.

    Since the trail is currently an out and back it should not be ridden by riders who are NOT upset by doing an out and back rather than a loop. That being said the trail is constructed with more of an uphill component in the west bound direction, so the east bound back direction at this point is very fun to ride and can be hooked up with the Cookscomb, Dawa, Rupp, AZ Cypress and OK trails to make a longer enjoyable advanced intermediate ride.

    As a side note this trail makes for a nice family ride and hike senerio. If you have family members who like to hike you can be dropped off at the Deadman's/Boynton Canyon Trailhead and you can ride to the Doe Mountain trail where you can hook-up with your family members to do the Doe Mountain hike. You might consider bringing a lock cable along to lock your bike to a tree while you hike up the Doe Mountain trail with you family or friends. There is decent cell reception in the Doe Mountain area to coordinate your meeting spot for the hike.

    This is a link to the GPS Track and a video link of how the trail rides at this point:
    http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=772184

    TD
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New Sedona Aerie Trail in Jeopardy-aerie-trail-8-22-2010.jpg  

    Last edited by traildoc; 08-24-2010 at 10:59 PM.

  2. #2
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    Went out today with a Sedona volunteer and got quite a bit of trail built. I think we must be 85% thru the building process and I hope to be finished by next Monday. If anyone is looking for an advance intermediate loop let me know.

    I am trying to encourage good riders to try out the trail as an out and back to get it packed in. It rides really good in the packed in sections and the trail built over the last week is a little slow due to a less packed condition.

    Hopefully we will get some rain to help with the compaction process.

    TD

  3. #3
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    Tomorrow afternoon works for me. If my tires can help, count me in. Kudos to TraiDoc for getting all the work done and rounding up volunteers in the summer heat. Props, Gold Star and Bravo!!

    Trail rating for The Aarie and Tea Cup coming soon (insert 'The Critic'):
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    Awesome Doc! Thank you so much for all your hard work. What you thinking about the Thunder Mountain trail? Last time I rode it I vowed to never ride it again due to massive suckage. It's a broken link in the Sedona network puzzle if you ask me. I'm actually getting stoked for the late fall/ Sedona season to start and ride there again.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by zul
    Tomorrow afternoon works for me. If my tires can help, count me in. Kudos to TraiDoc for getting all the work done and rounding up volunteers in the summer heat. Props, Gold Star and Bravo!!

    Trail rating for The Aarie and Tea Cup coming soon (insert 'The Critic'):
    zul:

    Thanks for stepping it up and volunteering. I am doing the MBH Wednesday ride in the morning and will be free in the afternoon. You have several options to consider.

    1. Meet me at my house in the afternoon and we can drive out to the Deadman's Boynton Canyon parking lot where I can drop you of and you can ride the trail to the worksite which would take about 30 minutes or:

    2. We just drive out and start working.

    Let me know when you will get to my house?

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 08-24-2010 at 10:16 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    Awesome Doc! Thank you so much for all your hard work. What you thinking about the Thunder Mountain trail? Last time I rode it I vowed to never ride it again due to massive suckage. It's a broken link in the Sedona network puzzle if you ask me. I'm actually getting stoked for the late fall/ Sedona season to start and ride there again.

    We rode it the other day and no one made the climb.

    It would be nice to send CREC out there and let them fix that stupid fall line section. The FS wants CREC to come out and work on the new Aerie trail. They think I have done a terrible job in building the trail. It makes me laugh that they think the trail is unsustainable before it even rains. They want to do major rock work and reroute sections of the trail. Talk about wasting taxpayers dollars on something that doesn't need to be done no wonder the country is going bankrupt.

    I am trying to get the FS to wait on the Aerie redue project which is scheduled for Oct 13 to the 18th and let mother nature show us where the problem aeras are. It will be interesting if they back-off or not. I told the muck e mucks to go work on other projects like the Thunder Mountain erosion nightmare. I don't know if they are capable of doing the right thing, we will see.

    I could come up with a dozen Sedona spots that they could try and fix, but I am not sure they are willing to change course at this point. It would be nice to get 60 minutes out there and let the nation know what is going on with their tax dollars.

    I am not resentful I am just in disbelief. Maybe I am not really in disbelief, I was told that something like this might happen and it has.

    I have tried my best to build a really nice trail for advanced intermediate riders to enjoy for hundreds of years for very little cost. Unlike many Sedona trails there are no surprise spots to stop the flow of an advanced intermediate rider. The trail is a nice hiking trail by inexperienced hikers and has great views, I don't know what CREC is going to do to improve that hiking experience.

    I am hoping that a lot of riders and hikers come out and check out the trail and give the FS their candid thoughts as to where the trail has issues. If I have created a sub-standard work product it should be communicated to the FS and have me be terminated from ever working on future projects.

    If anyone wants to check it out let me know and I would be happy to show them the ride.

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 08-24-2010 at 10:57 PM.

  7. #7
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    I'll be out there on Thursday morning. Btw, who ever taught the crec crew to use half buried upright stone to act as a waterbar (as in Munds Wagon up by Merry go Round, and Broken Arrow) really ought to be educated in how dangerous and unsustainable that practice is. It sounds like they have given you a ration of their mind on Aerie, maybe we should evaluate their work out in the field?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chalkpaw
    I'll be out there on Thursday morning. Btw, who ever taught the crec crew to use half buried upright stone to act as a waterbar (as in Munds Wagon up by Merry go Round, and Broken Arrow) really ought to be educated in how dangerous and unsustainable that practice is. It sounds like they have given you a ration of their mind on Aerie, maybe we should evaluate their work out in the field?
    No doubt Chalkpaw. I think the more we mountain bikers become involved with trail days and new projects we may start to see a swing in techniques? I hope so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chalkpaw
    I'll be out there on Thursday morning. Btw, who ever taught the crec crew to use half buried upright stone to act as a waterbar (as in Munds Wagon up by Merry go Round, and Broken Arrow) really ought to be educated in how dangerous and unsustainable that practice is. It sounds like they have given you a ration of their mind on Aerie, maybe we should evaluate their work out in the field?


    When I helped start CREC, back in 1997, I was the first mountain biker to supervise trail crews. We had to change the way everyone did trail construction and maintenance. Past crews were run by hikers and didn't take into consideration the needs of bikers. Consequently, turns had too tight a radious, site lines were too short and didn't allow for fast moving bikes, and waterbars were a joke, as you discovered. Only novice trail crews and volunteer groups would get away with that style of waterbar.

    Now I'm working with A.C.E., the other conservation corps in Northern Arizona. Without mountain bikers on the crews, or supervising the crews, a lot of the nuance in a mountain biking trail is lost, and you end up with a hiking trail that has no rhythm or flow for riders.

    There are some politics at work that I hope to write about in the near future, that result in inferior trail crews getting paid to do work that other crews could do that would be more pleasing to mountain bikers. We could just say, oh, that's life, or maybe hold the FS more accountable and make demands for how they manage our lands. I like that Doc is fighting the good fight despite the obstacles.


    last three...

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    Last edited by The Prodigal Son; 08-25-2010 at 08:11 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    We rode it the other day and no one made the climb.

    It would be nice to send CREC out there and let them fix that stupid fall line section. The FS wants CREC to come out and work on the new Aerie trail. They think I have done a terrible job in building the trail. It makes me laugh that they think the trail is unsustainable before it even rains. They want to do major rock work and reroute sections of the trail. Talk about wasting taxpayers dollars on something that doesn't need to be done no wonder the country is going bankrupt.

    I am trying to get the FS to wait on the Aerie redue project which is scheduled for Oct 13 to the 18th and let mother nature show us where the problem aeras are. It will be interesting if they back-off or not. I told the muck e mucks to go work on other projects like the Thunder Mountain erosion nightmare. I don't know if they are capable of doing the right thing, we will see.

    I could come up with a dozen Sedona spots that they could try and fix, but I am not sure they are willing to change course at this point. It would be nice to get 60 minutes out there and let the nation know what is going on with their tax dollars.

    I am not resentful I am just in disbelief. Maybe I am not really in disbelief, I was told that something like this might happen and it has.

    I have tried my best to build a really nice trail for advanced intermediate riders to enjoy for hundreds of years for very little cost. Unlike many Sedona trails there are no surprise spots to stop the flow of an advanced intermediate rider. The trail is a nice hiking trail by inexperienced hikers and has great views, I don't know what CREC is going to do to improve that hiking experience.

    I am hoping that a lot of riders and hikers come out and check out the trail and give the FS their candid thoughts as to where the trail has issues. If I have created a sub-standard work product it should be communicated to the FS and have me be terminated from ever working on future projects.

    If anyone wants to check it out let me know and I would be happy to show them the ride.

    TD
    Doc,

    I know it's posted somehwere here, but give me Jennifer Burns email address so I can let her know what a wonderful new trail we have over yonder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    We rode it the other day and no one made the climb.

    It would be nice to send CREC out there and let them fix that stupid fall line section. The FS wants CREC to come out and work on the new Aerie trail. They think I have done a terrible job in building the trail. It makes me laugh that they think the trail is unsustainable before it even rains. They want to do major rock work and reroute sections of the trail. Talk about wasting taxpayers dollars on something that doesn't need to be done no wonder the country is going bankrupt.

    I am trying to get the FS to wait on the Aerie redue project which is scheduled for Oct 13 to the 18th and let mother nature show us where the problem aeras are. It will be interesting if they back-off or not. I told the muck e mucks to go work on other projects like the Thunder Mountain erosion nightmare. I don't know if they are capable of doing the right thing, we will see.

    I could come up with a dozen Sedona spots that they could try and fix, but I am not sure they are willing to change course at this point. It would be nice to get 60 minutes out there and let the nation know what is going on with their tax dollars.

    I am not resentful I am just in disbelief. Maybe I am not really in disbelief, I was told that something like this might happen and it has.

    I have tried my best to build a really nice trail for advanced intermediate riders to enjoy for hundreds of years for very little cost. Unlike many Sedona trails there are no surprise spots to stop the flow of an advanced intermediate rider. The trail is a nice hiking trail by inexperienced hikers and has great views, I don't know what CREC is going to do to improve that hiking experience.

    I am hoping that a lot of riders and hikers come out and check out the trail and give the FS their candid thoughts as to where the trail has issues. If I have created a sub-standard work product it should be communicated to the FS and have me be terminated from ever working on future projects.

    If anyone wants to check it out let me know and I would be happy to show them the ride.

    TD
    What are the specific complaints about the trail? Does the CREC build trails for all users (even MTB?). Does the CREC just need something to do?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem
    What are the specific complaints about the trail? Does the CREC build trails for all users (even MTB?). Does the CREC just need something to do?
    There were several concerns expressed:

    1. The existing alignment is routed through some washes and needs to be re-routed.

    The Sedona locals have been riding washes for years and the washes are still there years later. I hope the FS doesn't think that they are trying to save some spiecy of fish downstream.

    2. The trail doesn't have a total bench and therefore the outside edge is considered unstable.

    I believe the soft edge will firm up with hiking and and biking on it. It always has before and it will in the future.

    3. A number of large rocks that were removed from the trail alignment and were placed next to the outside edge of trail. Apparently those rocks would have been dealt with differently if the FS had built the trail.

    I am not sure how differently yet, but I will find out when they are done with their redue project.

    4. The trail was routed through the center of three large juniper trees and there is concern that cutting some live and dead branches to make the alignment unique will be detrimental to the well being of the huge trees.

    IMHO I don't believe the trimmed branches will cause any damage to the three huge trees. Time will tell if their concern was justified and their trying to re-route the trail out of the trees will be forgotten (FTGs) by the trail routing crew.

    5. The rock walls that were built to support the trail in steep terrain spots are considered to be of inferior construction and don't hold up to FS manual standards.

    I don't agree that the walls will be a problem down the line.

    6. The wash crossing constrution techniques were not done according to the FS manual standard and therefore it is assumed they will not survive periods of very high rainfall.

    I agree with this obsevation, but in the past if a wash crossing didn't survive it would be rebuilt to survive the next time. It's not like the crossing would be left unrideable and never repaired to last a million years the next time.

    I personally would like this project to be left as is for a period of at least one year then re-evaluated to see if the above concerns are valid then fix them if necessary. Seems like a much more cost effective approach in these fiscally trying times.

    TD

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    Maybe I missed it, what part of the trail is in jeopardy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ_AlanS
    Maybe I missed it, what part of the trail is in jeopardy?
    The lower section has the supposed wash issues and the upper section has the other issues.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apexit
    Doc,

    I know it's posted somehwere here, but give me Jennifer Burns email address so I can let her know what a wonderful new trail we have over yonder.
    ape:

    Thanks for sending an email to Jennifer Burns regarding your user experience on the new Aerie trail. Her email address is: jmburns@fs.fed.us

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    The lower section has the supposed wash issues and the upper section has the other issues.

    TD
    Are we still talking about the Aerie Trail? What will it take to resolve the issues so that it can be completed?

  17. #17
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    Doc not to be negative but if I was given the go -ahead from the fs for the contruction of a new trail . I for one would do it by their standards no matter the effort or time it took to complete. Just me . Not saying what has been done won't work or survive. Just saying since it wasn't done to their standards it can not be offically added to nventory therefore at this time its just like many of the other social trails. But since its new they need to act accordingly in a timely manner.

    Maybe you can get out there and bring some of that said stuff up to their standards. You have over a month.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ_AlanS
    Are we still talking about the Aerie Trail? What will it take to resolve the issues so that it can be completed?
    I don't know exactly what it will take, but I will be providing updates as time goes on and will let you know how it was resolved. This is a learning process at this point.

    I am trying to get the FS to see a different way of building a sustainable trail. Maybe they will change some of their standards and maybe they won't. If they were to leave the trail alone for a year or more and see what happens, I might learn that my trail building style is amaturistic, and I need to get into another line of getting some exercise.

    I know my building style isn't close to being perfect, but it is definitely pretty darn efficent, and so far the people who have hiked and ridden it say it is a nice addition to the current Sedona trail system.

    It has taken NINE years to get to this point. I can't see the harm in giving it another year to see if the trail holds up.

    There is a downside though, if the trail holds up w/o FS and CREC intervention and it is a BIG success, what then?

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Doc not to be negative but if I was given the go -ahead from the fs for the contruction of a new trail . I for one would do it by their standards no matter the effort or time it took to complete. Just me . Not saying what has been done won't work or survive. Just saying since it wasn't done to their standards it can not be offically added to nventory therefore at this time its just like many of the other social trails. But since its new they need to act accordingly in a timely manner.

    Maybe you can get out there and bring some of that said stuff up to their standards. You have over a month.
    cw:

    I am curious, what are the most hours you personally have put into anyone trail project? Do you ever work on projects you don't believe in? Can you give me an example of one of those projects and what you thought was stupid when you were completing it?

    TD

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    most time into one project hmmm...... 4 years for one not legit (rouge) ,rest is legit: Annually for 3 years up till this year up in globe working with the globe forest service doing maintance every year, Trail work with the forest service on pass mountain, trailwork on the hawes trailsystem with the forest service. With most projects I tend to play a good role bringing some good knowledge with me. When on legit trail opps I work by the book or within the boundries established by the forest service prior to any work.

    you want an example of something I built I thought was dumb or not properly thought out ? I can give you many but none on the legit side of things sorry. Actually now that I think of it the man in charge of the project had us putting waterbars in with med sized rocks upright. Not the best solution but hey I was happy to be giving back even if I didn;t agree with the method .
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    I don't know exactly what it will take, but I will be providing updates as time goes on and will let you know how it was resolved. This is a learning process at this point.

    I am trying to get the FS to see a different way of building a sustainable trail. Maybe they will change some of their standards and maybe they won't. If they were to leave the trail alone for a year or more and see what happens, I might learn that my trail building style is amaturistic, and I need to get into another line of getting some exercise.

    I know my building style isn't close to being perfect, but it is definitely pretty darn efficent, and so far the people who have hiked and ridden it say it is a nice addition to the current Sedona trail system.

    It has taken NINE years to get to this point. I can't see the harm in giving it another year to see if the trail holds up.

    There is a downside though, if the trail holds up w/o FS and CREC intervention and it is a BIG success, what then?

    TD

    Change their standards to meet your? Not likely. Sorry there is no substitute for a full properly sloped bench. Yup partial bench works but also leads to maintance before a full bench would.I know from experience and so do they.

    I would be safe to say that more than 60% of trail users would not be courteous enough and stay on the soild portion of the bench while the outside settles and hardens. Hell it was hard to get people to stay off our fresh partial bench cuts out at the spot which see's less traffic than the area you are working in .It also takes time a 1 foot deep edge fill can take 3-6 months to harden through and thorugh if your lucky and thats if you get some good deep soaking rainstorms that are light but long.

    I wish you the best of luck but waiting to see the damage after a year in a place like sedona would be irresponsible on anyones part. Almost all of the partial benches have worked out fine and are solid but they are skinny in comparison to FS trail tread specs.


    here you go buddy maybe you can find your solutions in here.

    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/...232806/toc.htm
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Change their standards to meet your? Not likely. Sorry there is no substitute for a full properly sloped bench. Yup partial bench works but also leads to maintance before a full bench would.I know from experience and so do they.

    I would be safe to say that more than 60% of trail users would not be courteous enough and stay on the soild portion of the bench while the outside settles and hardens. Hell it was hard to get people to stay off our fresh partial bench cuts out at the spot which see's less traffic than the area you are working in .It also takes time a 1 foot deep edge fill can take 3-6 months to harden through and thorugh if your lucky and thats if you get some good deep soaking rainstorms that are light but long.

    I wish you the best of luck but waiting to see the damage after a year in a place like sedona would be irresponsible on anyones part. Almost all of the partial benches have worked out fine and are solid but they are skinny in comparison to FS trail tread specs.
    cw:

    Thanks for the benching information, kinda like being back in my first IMBA class.

    Have you watched the video of the mountain bikers riding the trail?


    Much of the trail has no bench and the except for a few spots no more than a 3 to 4" fill which up until recently had an optimum amount of moisture in it to get a 95% compaction result per the ASTM 1557 standard.by riding bikes on it.



    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Change their standards to meet your? Not likely. Sorry there is no substitute for a full properly sloped bench. Yup partial bench works but also leads to maintance before a full bench would.I know from experience and so do they.

    I would be safe to say that more than 60% of trail users would not be courteous enough and stay on the soild portion of the bench while the outside settles and hardens. Hell it was hard to get people to stay off our fresh partial bench cuts out at the spot which see's less traffic than the area you are working in .It also takes time a 1 foot deep edge fill can take 3-6 months to harden through and thorugh if your lucky and thats if you get some good deep soaking rainstorms that are light but long.

    I wish you the best of luck but waiting to see the damage after a year in a place like sedona would be irresponsible on anyones part. Almost all of the partial benches have worked out fine and are solid but they are skinny in comparison to FS trail tread specs.


    here you go buddy maybe you can find your solutions in here.

    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/...232806/toc.htm
    One last qustion, what is the degree of a properly sloped bench and with the trails that you have personally been involved in, do they still all have that properly sloped bench, and if not what is done about it? What you talking about sounds good in the classroom, but unless your trail bed is concrete it seems a little unrealistic to maintain at your proper degree of outslope.

    TD

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    Can't tell you the proper degree. But what was used as the standard was that one was suppose to beable to stand/walk on the tread without feeling "any" side ways roll in the ankle . I know sounds abit much but all areas that have proper outslope have held up very well and water has drained of the side not down the trail . Although I orginally thought more outslope would run water off quicker. but it comes down to having the hiker in mind when building trails. This was in the Globe ranger district. Most of this was on sixshooter and a portion of rebench on telephone trail. A properly outsloped trail will only need creep removed once every 3-5 years depending on the grade above the bench.

    The main thing here is this is a new FS trail ?Correct? This isn't a social trail with a few problems they are adopting into the inventory. With that said it just has to meet their standards as a multi use trail. Did you flag said route? Have it approved route that is? Did they express their concerns with trail design or proper water shed? If not shame on their part .

    . As far as desert stuff our work at the spot that has proper outslope has held up extreamly well no issues at all or maintaince. Areas that were outsloped too much were eventually fixed by adding material to the outside edge decreasing the amount of outslope as not to have side erroison from quicker moving water. Areas that had too much inslope erode the inside of the trail creating an inner water channel. Some of those areas were fixed and erroison came to a hault. Other areas not addressed have just about washed away and have been reclaimed by nature but in an ugly way.

    I did watch the video and I see alot of the same issues sorry . Its fine if I look at it through riders eyes ..
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    That's my question "who flagged the trail"? I saw all the blue tape/ribbons, so if the FS flagged it then location should not be an issue......if TD flagged it, then the FS should have reviewed it first and made comments about small wash crossings prior to using any shovels. "measure twice, cut once". The way I see it, the FS is the foreman and TD along with the volunteers are the crew. Ultimately the FS is responsible for the crew and maybe a little more direction/supervision should have been spent up front so no reworking would be required later. FS knew TD was working, maybe they didn't know how fast he can work so they didn't send a rep onsite until it was too late? Maybe FS had a few too many furloughs? Now we can blame the mortgage brokers, banks and our current administration

    Overall, the trail is nicely done. It has two different personalities split between the lower and upper elevations. The lower is a very fast, rollercoaster type trail when riding in the downhill direction. The upper more rocky, more narrow, with great views.

    Thanks TD and crew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Can't tell you the proper degree. But what was used as the standard was that one was suppose to beable to stand/walk on the tread without feeling "any" side ways roll in the ankle . I know sounds abit much but all areas that have proper outslope have held up very well and water has drained of the side not down the trail . Although I orginally thought more outslope would run water off quicker. but it comes down to having the hiker in mind when building trails. This was in the Globe ranger district. Most of this was on sixshooter and a portion of rebench on telephone trail. A properly outsloped trail will only need creep removed once every 3-5 years depending on the grade above the bench.

    The main thing here is this is a new FS trail ?Correct? This isn't a social trail with a few problems they are adopting into the inventory. With that said it just has to meet their standards as a multi use trail. Did you flag said route? Have it approved route that is? Did they express their concerns with trail design or proper water shed? If not shame on their part .

    . As far as desert stuff our work at the spot that has proper outslope has held up extreamly well no issues at all or maintaince. Areas that were outsloped too much were eventually fixed by adding material to the outside edge decreasing the amount of outslope as not to have side erroison from quicker moving water. Areas that had too much inslope erode the inside of the trail creating an inner water channel. Some of those areas were fixed and erroison came to a hault. Other areas not addressed have just about washed away and have been reclaimed by nature but in an ugly way.

    I did watch the video and I see alot of the same issues sorry . Its fine if I look at it through riders eyes ..
    cw:

    Do numerous rolling dips trump outsloping? I don't believe that one can rely on outsloping to maintain sustainablity in steep trail sections. When you watched the video did you see any rolling dips? If you didn't then I will inform you that they are numerous.

    TD

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    Yes doc I seen the rolling dips........nope they dont negate outsloping . remember this is a multi use trail....Also never said outsloping was the only way and thats only part of one issue . I am not trying to harp on you just giving you another perspective on their concens which are valid. I applaud you for taking the reins on this project however ........with them habving their issues with the work is a setback IMO .For them to reroute a portion is the bigger deal of them all IMO. I am willing to bet they won't go out on a limb again so easily to let MTBer's do unsupervised trailwork which could damper other projects in the area in the future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Yes doc I seen the rolling dips........nope they dont negate outsloping . remember this is a multi use trail....Also never said outsloping was the only way and thats only part of one issue . I am not trying to harp on you just giving you another perspective on their concens which are valid. I applaud you for taking the reins on this project however ........with them habving their issues with the work is a setback IMO .For them to reroute a portion is the bigger deal of them all IMO. I am willing to bet they won't go out on a limb again so easily to let MTBer's do unsupervised trailwork which could damper other projects in the area in the future.
    Think about them big four legged poopin machines walking up and down the trail and build to withstand their abuse. I get what your saying.

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    Are horseback riders the majority in sedona? But yes your on the right track form their viewpoint.

    I will add horses never crossed my mind until you said something. That would also add to the need for proper outslope for rider saftey
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    I was thinking that the narrow single track without wide enough benching would put horses hooves on the outside of the tread blowing it out. The rock work might not withstand horses weight as well. This doesn't seem important to a rider but it's the concern of the FS. It would be a factor to me if I was working on a legit multi use trail, I sure wouldn't want all that hard work being destroyed by some horses.

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    Yup ,that now sums it all up...
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    I was thinking that the narrow single track without wide enough benching would put horses hooves on the outside of the tread blowing it out. The rock work might not withstand horses weight as well. This doesn't seem important to a rider but it's the concern of the FS. It would be a factor to me if I was working on a legit multi use trail, I sure wouldn't want all that hard work being destroyed by some horses.
    I think the FS will ask the equestrian users to put up a bond that will pay for the damage they do to the trail. Since the trail has been totally built by mountain biking volunteers the equestrian ought to at least fix all the damage they do to the trail. The equestrains in Sedona are a very responcible group, and I hope they will hire a trail crew to follow them and fix the damage they will do to the trail. Or, after each ride they will go back out and correct all the damage they do to the trail.

    I have heard that the FS got a grant to fix the Woods Canyon trail which starts in the Village of Oak Creek. My hope is that the equestraians will want to get out into the Wilderness with their trustee steeds and ride a trail that is perfectly suited to their needs. Since mountain bikers aren't allowed out there I don't understand why tens of thousands of taxpayers dollars should go to pay for reduing a trail out in the Wilderness. Shouldn't hikers and horses be able to navigate a Wilderness trail that has been in use for years, it seems like the trail isn't getting much use lately and it will be interesting if the usage goes up enough to justify all the money being spent on it.

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 08-26-2010 at 07:16 PM.

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    Nope not going to let you derail this .


    Its time doc to answer the questions above since I have answered enough of YOURS. Also I know of no place in az that equestrians have a trail crew follow them fixing stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    I think the FS will ask the equestrian users to put up a bond that will pay for the damage they do to the trail. Since the trail has been totally built by mountain biking volunteers the equestrian ought to at least fix all the damage they do to the trail. The equestrains in Sedona are a very responcible group, and I hope they will hire a trail crew to follow them and fix the damage they will do to the trail. Or, after each ride they will go back out and correct all the damage they do to the trail.

    I have heard that the FS got a grant to fix the Woods Canyon trail which starts in the Village of Oak Creek. My hope is that the equestraians will want to get out into the Wilderness with their trustee steeds and ride a trail that is perfectly suited to their needs. Since mountain bikers aren't allowed out there I don't understand why tens of thousands of taxpayers dollars should go to pay for reduing a trail out in the Wilderness. Shouldn't hikers and horses be able to navigate a Wilderness trail that has been in use for years, it seems like the trail isn't getting much use lately and it will be interesting if the usage goes up enough to justify all the money being spent on it.

    TD
    If the trail is built to withstand the horses from the get go then would it really be a problem? Don't take this the wrong way TD, you have done amazing things for mountain biking here in N. Az. but we now have see things from the FS eyes and go from there. How can a closed mind that can't except constructive criticism ever learn how to do things better? You are an amazing builder so please don't get jaded and turn away from an opportunity to do great things. Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc

    Since mountain bikers aren't allowed out there I don't understand why tens of thousands of taxpayers dollars should go to pay for reduing a trail out in the Wilderness. Shouldn't hikers and horses be able to navigate a Wilderness trail that has been in use for years, it seems like the trail isn't getting much use lately and it will be interesting if the usage goes up enough to justify all the money being spent on it.

    TD

    WTF?? are you serious?? Man you just moved down another notch IMO. As a hiker, a dad of 2 equestrians . Any money spent in our forests and rec areas is good as it is benifiting any user group. Not all wilderness trails are designed to be rugged they have varing degrees just as we grade the trails we ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    WTF?? are you serious?? Man you just moved down another notch IMO. As a hiker, a dad of 2 equestrians . Any money spent in our forests and rec areas is good as it is benifiting any user group. Not all wilderness trails are designed to be rugged they have varing degrees just as we grade the trails we ride.
    cw:

    It is my humble opinion that taxpayers dollars should be spent wisely, you obviously don't really care where dollars are spent as long as they are being spent. Fixing Woods Canyon for your daughters and their friends to ride is a waste of money IMHO. Once again time will tell how many users use the Woods Canyon trail (which will cost a bucket load on my tax dollars) as compared to the number of users on the new Aerie trail which was built with peanuts.

    When I was out on the trail today two bikers showed up and two hikers showed up. For a trail not even officially open with a BIG Press Release that was pretty special for me when they all said "cool trail dude".

    To be honest your opinon of me doesn't really matter to me personally, I am doing a great job for the biker and hiker user group and that is my main priority. If in the end the FS doesn't like the job I have done my life will continue just fine .

    The FS called me up today and scheduled a re-route project for me to look a,t so they are using me to their best advantage and I am currently still saying OK since the re-route is to make a section of trail I can't ride uphill rideable. What happens in the future will depend on how Aerie turns out or other sections I want dumbed down to my riding level. I wonder who is using who sometimes.

    Since we are rolling into a cooler period I have been getting lot's of PM's and emails from friends and possible new friends who want me to show them some great Sedona loops this Fall. This weekend a MTBR member is coming up from Phoenix with a bunch of his friends to ride, and I predict they will go home with s on their faces.

    I just might throw in Aerie depending on their riding style, otherwise Hangover, Damifino, Hog Heaven, Highline, Special Ed, Under the Radar or Pyramid will probably get the job done.

    I am looking forward to completing the Aerie trail possibly tomorrow with the help of Chalkpaw. Once I am done with it I will use it as part of my A1 loop package to have a fun ride which everyone so far has enjoyed. That's all that really matters to me at this point.

    Hope that helps.

    TD

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    I am glad you KNOW what I care about Anyways dude your full of questions for others but like to skirt around and not answer others questions to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    I am glad you KNOW what I care about Anyways dude your full of questions for others but like to skirt around and not answer others questions to you.
    cd:

    Which questions have I not answered? Give me the questions again and I promise to do my best and answer all of them. I was responding to one of your posts and I tried to copy the reply before sending it out and put it through spell check.

    Anyway rather than pressing control C I pressed control V and lost the three page reply. I am sure my answer to your questions were in the reply, but I went into at state of depression when my responce evaporated and went back to my instant Netflix movie.

    By the way have you seen Feedom Riders yet. Kind of like what I am experiencing right now with the FS.

    By the way do you know what a Class III trail is? The FS just emailed and gave me the Classification of the Aerie trail.

    Please try again,

    TD

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    That means they want a trail tread of 36" min.

    The trail does not conform hence the reason they will rework it to meet a class 3 trail ....If your not willing to read the posts above for the question why should I have to repeat myself ??

    EDIT:

    Also I just remembered a class 3 trail also has trail ceiling (height) and corridor (width) which also have specific measurements that I can't recall of the top of my head. Another reason they will reroute
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Are horseback riders the majority in sedona? But yes your on the right track form their viewpoint.

    I will add horses never crossed my mind until you said something. That would also add to the need for proper outslope for rider saftey
    Horses aren't the majority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Yes doc I seen the rolling dips........nope they dont negate outsloping . remember this is a multi use trail....Also never said outsloping was the only way and thats only part of one issue . I am not trying to harp on you just giving you another perspective on their concens which are valid. I applaud you for taking the reins on this project however ........with them habving their issues with the work is a setback IMO .For them to reroute a portion is the bigger deal of them all IMO. I am willing to bet they won't go out on a limb again so easily to let MTBer's do unsupervised trailwork which could damper other projects in the area in the future.
    cw:

    I wouldn't bet on it. Remember they don't have to do any brushing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Horses aren't the majority.
    Didn't think so hence why I never thought about them . However this was my ? to raising not u.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork

    The main thing here is this is a new FS trail ?Correct? This isn't a social trail with a few problems they are adopting into the inventory. With that said it just has to meet their standards as a multi use trail. Did you flag said route? Have it approved route that is? Did they express their concerns with trail design or proper water shed? If not shame on their part .

    .
    Just a portion of a previous post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apexit
    That's my question "who flagged the trail"? I saw all the blue tape/ribbons, so if the FS flagged it then location should not be an issue......if TD flagged it, then the FS should have reviewed it first and made comments about small wash crossings prior to using any shovels. "measure twice, cut once". The way I see it, the FS is the foreman and TD along with the volunteers are the crew. Ultimately the FS is responsible for the crew and maybe a little more direction/supervision should have been spent up front so no reworking would be required later. FS knew TD was working, maybe they didn't know how fast he can work so they didn't send a rep onsite until it was too late? Maybe FS had a few too many furloughs? Now we can blame the mortgage brokers, banks and our current administration

    .

    Again if it was a snake you would have been bit. DOC
    Last edited by clockwork; 08-26-2010 at 10:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Didn't think so hence why I never thought about them . However this was my ? to raising not u.
    You have to build the trail to meet the abuse of the most abusive user if it's multi-use. That was all I was saying. A really well built line can take it right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    That means they want a trail tread of 36" min.

    The trail does not conform hence the reason they will rework it to meet a class 3 trail ....If your not willing to read the posts above for the question why should I have to repeat myself ??

    EDIT:

    Also I just remembered a class 3 trail also has trail ceiling (height) and corridor (width) which also have specific measurements that I can't recall of the top of my head. Another reason they will reroute

    cw:

    I only found one ?, there has to be more but I didn't find them sorry.

    36" boy they have alot of work and rerouting on their hands, no wonder they want five days with their big crew.

    My boss was getting pissed at me for making the trail over a foot wide. He is going to have to be sedated.

    Just got a PM from a rider from Singapore who wants to ride something special this weekend I will do a video of him riding Aerie and send it to you for your review, and as a reminder of what the trail was once like.

    TD

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    Horse riders may not be the majority but they exist and have a lot of money. They have pull, that's just how it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    You have to build the trail to meet the abuse of the most abusive user if it's multi-use. That was all I was saying. A really well built line can take it right?

    I agree and I overlooked the equestrians. I was just seeing if there really was alot of use of the trails by equestrians. If there was then that would even make it more important that the trail was constructed to withstand those kind of loads.
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    Horse riders may not be the majority but they exist and have a lot of money. They have pull, that's just how it is.
    RA:

    I know they want parking for eight horse trailers at the new (to be built) Lost Watch parking lot on the Dry Creek gravel road. Looks like there will have to be new trails to replace what they distroy. I think I will take up horseback riding when I can't ride a bike anymore.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    cw:

    I only found one ?, there has to be more but I didn't find them sorry.

    .

    TD

    boy you sure are BLIND I just quoted 2 of the same ?'s above like 7 min ago jeez FOR YOU
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    Here last time just for you doc

    Originally Posted by clockwork

    The main thing here is this is a new FS trail ?Correct? This isn't a social trail with a few problems they are adopting into the inventory. With that said it just has to meet their standards as a multi use trail. Did you flag said route? Have it approved route that is? Did they express their concerns with trail design or proper water shed? If not shame on their part .
    Originally Posted by Apexit
    That's my question "who flagged the trail"? I saw all the blue tape/ribbons, so if the FS flagged it then location should not be an issue......if TD flagged it, then the FS should have reviewed it first and made comments about small wash crossings prior to using any shovels. "measure twice, cut once". The way I see it, the FS is the foreman and TD along with the volunteers are the crew. Ultimately the FS is responsible for the crew and maybe a little more direction/supervision should have been spent up front so no reworking would be required later. FS knew TD was working, maybe they didn't know how fast he can work so they didn't send a rep onsite until it was too late? Maybe FS had a few too many furloughs? Now we can blame the mortgage brokers, banks and our current administration
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    RA:

    I know they want parking for eight horse trailers at the new (to be built) Lost Watch parking lot on the Dry Creek gravel road. Looks like there will have to be new trails to replace what they distroy. I think I will take up horseback riding when I can't ride a bike anymore.

    TD
    I'm going to take up drunk treestanding. Sit in a tree and get drunk waiting for a critter to shoot but I will just hang out getting drunk with my gun. It sounds sweet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Just a portion of a previous post.
    The main thing here is this is a new FS trail ? Correct?

    Yes, It is a nine year old project, that they couldn't figure out how to do, so my boss was invited in because he is a routing genius.

    This isn't a social trail with a few problems they are adopting into the inventory.

    No social trail.

    With that said it just has to meet their standards as a multi use trail.

    If what you say is correct this is my last new system trail project, I will just do maintenance on the trails they adopt, where I think it is necessary and re-routes on sections of existing system trails I can't ride as I go into my Golden Years graceully. I always can fall back on the internet for entertainment.

    Did you flag said route?

    No my boss did. I wasn't allowed to go off the flagging even an inch or I got in trouble. It was frustrating at times, but I pretended I was in boot camp.

    Have it approved route that is?

    The archeologist did the final approval and said we had to stay on flag.

    Did they express their concerns with trail design or proper water shed?

    I don't know I wasn't there. I was in the hospital in the cardiac care unit getting over a PE.

    If not shame on their part.

    If what you say is what actually happens then I would have never gotten involved, but it still has been a good learning experience, like auto shop was. I am not sure I will have any of my ashes spread on this one though.

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    Rolling Dips vs. Outsloping

    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    cw:

    Do numerous rolling dips trump outsloping? I don't believe that one can rely on outsloping to maintain sustainablity in steep trail sections. When you watched the video did you see any rolling dips? If you didn't then I will inform you that they are numerous.

    TD
    I have heard this rolling dips vs. outsloping argument before and it always seems to become a 'one or the other" debate. The correct answer is BOTH! Water is the enemy of trails and getting the water quickly off the trail before it starts to do damage is the goal. Yes, the dip is more durable and requires less maintenance but outslope has a secondary purpose, it helps get rocks off the trail. Once a trail begins to gully and forms a berm of the critical edge, rocks begin to accumulate on the trail tread. So put in lots of dips to help the trail shed water and outslope to shed both water and debris.

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    I've been following this silly pissing match...

    While you both have valid points the bottom line is TD was given permission to build the trail by the Red Rock District. They're aware of what he's been up to in recent years and the fact that J. Burns or whomever approved the trail no doubt is aware of his methods. Keep in mind a trail with no more than the USFS approved 7% grade, rolling dips, and outsloping is difficult to achieve in the rocky terrain of Sedona. There's not much dirt to move around and the perfect mulit-user trail (mind you none exist in Sedona except maybe the Red Rock Pathway) is a figment of the imagination. TD's method is to naturally incorporate these features into the trail which also enhances the flow. I suspect he had one hand tied behind his back if someone else flagged the route. Many on this forum can attest to the sustainability of the trails doc has "touched" per say and his efforts are laudable and appreciated. I didn't always see it this way either but I do now. The FS has noticed or we wouldn't even be having this conversation or the potential incorporation of said trails into the pathetic system trail network.

    Doc, I suppose it would take another 9 years to get approved but it seems to me a connector between the south end of Girdner/Ledge-n-Airy instersection to Cockscomb/w. end Aerie is sorely needed. An alternate out of the drainage to the west of side of Girdner would indeed enable a world class loop

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    Quote Originally Posted by bweide
    Water is the enemy of trails...
    Well, water and horses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bweide
    I have heard this rolling dips vs. outsloping argument before and it always seems to become a 'one or the other" debate. The correct answer is BOTH! Water is the enemy of trails and getting the water quickly off the trail before it starts to do damage is the goal. Yes, the dip is more durable and requires less maintenance but outslope has a secondary purpose, it helps get rocks off the trail. Once a trail begins to gully and forms a berm of the critical edge, rocks begin to accumulate on the trail tread. So put in lots of dips to help the trail shed water and outslope to shed both water and debris.
    bw:

    If you had a rolling dip every 40' how many raock would you be get on a trail with less than a 5% slope? I have built numerous trails with a high frequency of rolling dips and I don't even concern myself with PROPER OUTSLOPING.

    I was out on Aerie today for elevan hours trying to complete the project more than a month before the original estimated completion date. Chalkpaw from Flagstaff helped me for an additional six hours. I would venture to say we got over 500 yards of trail built and due to the number of grade reversals the trail will never need maintenance other than cutting brush encroaching on the trail.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman
    While you both have valid points the bottom line is TD was given permission to build the trail by the Red Rock District. They're aware of what he's been up to in recent years and the fact that J. Burns or whomever approved the trail no doubt is aware of his methods. Keep in mind a trail with no more than the USFS approved 7% grade, rolling dips, and outsloping is difficult to achieve in the rocky terrain of Sedona. There's not much dirt to move around and the perfect mulit-user trail (mind you none exist in Sedona except maybe the Red Rock Pathway) is a figment of the imagination. TD's method is to naturally incorporate these features into the trail which also enhances the flow. I suspect he had one hand tied behind his back if someone else flagged the route. Many on this forum can attest to the sustainability of the trails doc has "touched" per say and his efforts are laudable and appreciated. I didn't always see it this way either but I do now. The FS has noticed or we wouldn't even be having this conversation or the potential incorporation of said trails into the pathetic system trail network.

    Doc, I suppose it would take another 9 years to get approved but it seems to me a connector between the south end of Girdner/Ledge-n-Airy instersection to Cockscomb/w. end Aerie is sorely needed. An alternate out of the drainage to the west of side of Girdner would indeed enable a world class loop
    Rocky:

    Sometimes I think you have my house and phone bugged, you get an A+ on your post. Looking forward to going on a ride with you to check out Aerie and get your unbiased opinion of the trail's worthiness.

    TD

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    My hat is off to both TD and CW, I have volunteered with both of you, and both of you are talented builders. I agree it is a shame we have to cater to horses when I have yet to see an equestrian volunteer for any trail project. Some, if not most of FS requirements are dated to say the least! Why is it that we cannot have some trails that are bike only??? I am totally ok with trails that are also hikers only and of course horse only. It seems as Mtn bikers we do all the work while other users dictate how the trails should be......just my $.02

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    Quote Originally Posted by tls36
    My hat is off to both TD and CW, I have volunteered with both of you, and both of you are talented builders. I agree it is a shame we have to cater to horses when I have yet to see an equestrian volunteer for any trail project. Some, if not most of FS requirements are dated to say the least! Why is it that we cannot have some trails that are bike only??? I am totally ok with trails that are also hikers only and of course horse only. It seems as Mtn bikers we do all the work while other users dictate how the trails should be......just my $.02
    36:

    Thanks for the kind words. Chalkpaw was working his butt off today burning lots of calories in the process. We did some moving of the flagline to improve the trail flow and I think the trail router genius will like what he sees when he checks out our work.

    My hope is to get some rain on the trail tomorrow which would be icing on the cake.

    TD

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    How did that little crossing that we worked on turn out TD?

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    TD... clean up your PM's...

    John, clear out some of your PM's.. I can't PM you WRT our ride tomorrow which includes this new jewel.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by h2ojunkie
    How did that little crossing that we worked on turn out TD?
    It rode nicely and with a BIG rain the cracks will fill in and it will look like a flagstone patio.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZmtncycler
    John, clear out some of your PM's.. I can't PM you WRT our ride tomorrow which includes this new jewel.
    Done

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    Great work TD, Chalkpaw and co. Wise words Rockman.

    Thread has been pretty serious.

    http://theoatmeal.com/story/eat_horses

    Hope this little gem to lightens things up:

  66. #66
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    I had to call it quits after 6 hours behind the tools. I was whooped. TD says he was going to work for a couple more. Then I get a call about 7pm, him telling me that he finished! 11 hours, that's some serious work. Outsloped or not, that is some major dirt moving.
    There is a big difference between ripping and skidding.

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    TD,

    The FS sometimes does things that make little sense. Usually they are wll intentioned. Remember, they are government workers. They don't have to produce results and are rarely held accoutable for anything to anyone. They have the power to interpret rules and laws as they see fit. I've read stories about retired wildlife employees who stopped developments and trails and cattle tanks from being built by inventing an endangered species. I think this happened in both Oregon and Wachington. One FS employee was so clever that she went to the zoo and gathered fur from a rare animal and placed that fur on some type of device she had on a tree that gathers fur from animals as they scratch themselves against it. She then declared the area off limits due to this endangered animal living there.

    What I'm getting at is, I see that you are struggling against governemnt policy. You need to keep fighting the good fight and adapting to overcome. Remember, no matter how the FS categorizes the new trails, it will become something different in time.

    We have a trail at Fort Tuthill called The Soldiers Trail. It is popular with beginner riders and was even used for a state championship mountain bike race. It is also used for running races. It was built because I was bored. I was training new CREC members on how to use a chainsaw. In was early 1999, or maybe 2000. We were thinning the small diameter trees at the campgrounds. I dislike chainsaws and needed to take a break, so I wondered out into the woods. I found a couple faded trails. One was from FWD trucks that had snuck onto the property, and the other was a horse trail. I began taking more walks around the property and found an elevated section of land that was once a railroad track. After a couple weeks, I was able to envision a trail that would circle the county park, about five miles or so. Later, we added a bisecting trail, called the Bridge Trail.

    I wanted to build this trail but I didn't want to face the type of opposition I was used to when dealing with the Forest Service. They can take a proposal and delay it for ten years by saying the wildlife study and archeological study and the whole NEPA process will take a long time and they don't have the people to do the studies and they are funding other important projects. Then, after four or five years of waiting, they will tell you that the people who were involved in putting that project on the calendar and scheduling the various compliance studies, have all moved on to other positions within the Forest Service, and they will need to start all over again, working with new staff that will also be transferring out in a couple years. Then there will be several old timers working on the district that will be horsemen. They will have power of rank and use their jobs to funnel grant funding to their favorite horse trails and they will find ways to stop the funding of trails that will used used primarily by mountain bikers. Those people had the power to move our National Trail Day event 20 miles outside of Flagstaff to where they wanted a nice new horse trail, and where they knew few, if any mountain bikers would ever ride. These are some of the obstacles the FS will place before you.

    I met with the County Park Manager and got to know him. I found out he was new to Flagstaff and had moved here from Oregon. He told me he was an avid cross-country skier. I knew the couny didn't have much money to build a trail and I knew they had little interest in building a trail for mountain bikers. So, I pin-flagged the route I wanted to build and I approached the park manager and said I wanted to build him a beautiful new cross-country ski trail. We walked the entire route. I told him my CREC crew was fully funded with Americorps grants and that the county only had to pay me, as the crew supervisor. I told him I could work with the Luke AFB recreation people next door to the property, and borrow their snow mobile to groom the trail. He loved the idea. He looked at it as a feather in his cap. Something he could take credit for and say he accomplished for the people of Flagstaff. The beauty was that we were on county land. They didn't have to comply with all the NEPA requirements. There would be no studies of plants or wildlife or archeological sites. We walked the trail on a Monday afternoon. This one person in charge of county parks told me he liked the allignment and he wanted me to build him his ski trail. I went straight to the hardware store and purchased some loppers to cut the Mexican locust plants along the route and I also bought a telescoping limb saw. We already had plenty of pick mattocks and McLeods. I spent $300. We began work the next morning and completed the trail in a couple months.

    What I am getting to is, we had to build the trail as though it was going to be a cross-country ski trail, even though I knew it would never get used for that purpose. So I had to build it wider than I wanted, just like you are being asked to do in Sedona. I knew that each year after it was built, it would get 6"-10" narrower. I knew bikers would find a line to ride and the vegetation and trail creep would eventually create a perfect width, or at least an accdeptable width. It did. We also found out later that we had routed the trail through state land and also through private land, by accident. Some surveys were done and the trail was rerouted off of private land. The people at the State Land Trust didn't really care that we didn't talk to them and get proper easements. It was a classic case of asking forgiveness afterwards rather than ask permission for something they might have refused to allow.

    I'm just saying that it might be best to comply with whatever the Red Rocks District government people are asking of you, and after the trail is finished, you can modify it or alter the lines a bit and encourage the width to narrow down. It's just a game, really, and they don't have the will power to keep up with motivated riders willing to stick with a project to get it done right.



    last three...

    The Cave by Mumford & Sons
    Bewitched by The Wedding Present
    You Forgot by Railroad Jerk

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    Good work guys, I'm glad that whatever issues existed with the trail and the Forest Service have been resolved, I imagine it was very frustrating. Thanks again TD for all your hard work in helping make Sedona the riding destination it is today. As soon as the temps cool off I will surely check out the trail.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son

    We have a trail at Fort Tuthill called The Soldiers Trail. It is popular with beginner riders and was even used for a state championship mountain bike race. It is also used for running races. It was built because I was bored.
    I think the race you speak of was in 2000 when Coc NF was closed because of fire danger but the MBAA state final was also held at Tuthill in 1991. What course did they ride?

    I believe at least parts of Soldier and Bridge were built for the 1991 race. The previous two years the state finals were held in Dry Lake Hills (with the last climb up Weatherford) but they moved it to Tuthill because of logging in the Orion Spring area and the closure of Schultz to downhill bike traffic in 1990. I think John Lake from Tempe or Shawn Gillis (Absolute Bikes) won PRO that year. Anyhow, good stuff out there at Tuthill.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    TD,

    The FS sometimes does things that make little sense. Usually they are wll intentioned. Remember, they are government workers. They don't have to produce results and are rarely held accoutable for anything to anyone. They have the power to interpret rules and laws as they see fit. I've read stories about retired wildlife employees who stopped developments and trails and cattle tanks from being built by inventing an endangered species. I think this happened in both Oregon and Wachington. One FS employee was so clever that she went to the zoo and gathered fur from a rare animal and placed that fur on some type of device she had on a tree that gathers fur from animals as they scratch themselves against it. She then declared the area off limits due to this endangered animal living there.

    What I'm getting at is, I see that you are struggling against governemnt policy. You need to keep fighting the good fight and adapting to overcome. Remember, no matter how the FS categorizes the new trails, it will become something different in time.

    We have a trail at Fort Tuthill called The Soldiers Trail. It is popular with beginner riders and was even used for a state championship mountain bike race. It is also used for running races. It was built because I was bored. I was training new CREC members on how to use a chainsaw. In was early 1999, or maybe 2000. We were thinning the small diameter trees at the campgrounds. I dislike chainsaws and needed to take a break, so I wondered out into the woods. I found a couple faded trails. One was from FWD trucks that had snuck onto the property, and the other was a horse trail. I began taking more walks around the property and found an elevated section of land that was once a railroad track. After a couple weeks, I was able to envision a trail that would circle the county park, about five miles or so. Later, we added a bisecting trail, called the Bridge Trail.

    I wanted to build this trail but I didn't want to face the type of opposition I was used to when dealing with the Forest Service. They can take a proposal and delay it for ten years by saying the wildlife study and archeological study and the whole NEPA process will take a long time and they don't have the people to do the studies and they are funding other important projects. Then, after four or five years of waiting, they will tell you that the people who were involved in putting that project on the calendar and scheduling the various compliance studies, have all moved on to other positions within the Forest Service, and they will need to start all over again, working with new staff that will also be transferring out in a couple years. Then there will be several old timers working on the district that will be horsemen. They will have power of rank and use their jobs to funnel grant funding to their favorite horse trails and they will find ways to stop the funding of trails that will used used primarily by mountain bikers. Those people had the power to move our National Trail Day event 20 miles outside of Flagstaff to where they wanted a nice new horse trail, and where they knew few, if any mountain bikers would ever ride. These are some of the obstacles the FS will place before you.

    I met with the County Park Manager and got to know him. I found out he was new to Flagstaff and had moved here from Oregon. He told me he was an avid cross-country skier. I knew the couny didn't have much money to build a trail and I knew they had little interest in building a trail for mountain bikers. So, I pin-flagged the route I wanted to build and I approached the park manager and said I wanted to build him a beautiful new cross-country ski trail. We walked the entire route. I told him my CREC crew was fully funded with Americorps grants and that the county only had to pay me, as the crew supervisor. I told him I could work with the Luke AFB recreation people next door to the property, and borrow their snow mobile to groom the trail. He loved the idea. He looked at it as a feather in his cap. Something he could take credit for and say he accomplished for the people of Flagstaff. The beauty was that we were on county land. They didn't have to comply with all the NEPA requirements. There would be no studies of plants or wildlife or archeological sites. We walked the trail on a Monday afternoon. This one person in charge of county parks told me he liked the allignment and he wanted me to build him his ski trail. I went straight to the hardware store and purchased some loppers to cut the Mexican locust plants along the route and I also bought a telescoping limb saw. We already had plenty of pick mattocks and McLeods. I spent $300. We began work the next morning and completed the trail in a couple months.

    What I am getting to is, we had to build the trail as though it was going to be a cross-country ski trail, even though I knew it would never get used for that purpose. So I had to build it wider than I wanted, just like you are being asked to do in Sedona. I knew that each year after it was built, it would get 6"-10" narrower. I knew bikers would find a line to ride and the vegetation and trail creep would eventually create a perfect width, or at least an accdeptable width. It did. We also found out later that we had routed the trail through state land and also through private land, by accident. Some surveys were done and the trail was rerouted off of private land. The people at the State Land Trust didn't really care that we didn't talk to them and get proper easements. It was a classic case of asking forgiveness afterwards rather than ask permission for something they might have refused to allow.

    I'm just saying that it might be best to comply with whatever the Red Rocks District government people are asking of you, and after the trail is finished, you can modify it or alter the lines a bit and encourage the width to narrow down. It's just a game, really, and they don't have the will power to keep up with motivated riders willing to stick with a project to get it done right.



    last three...

    The Cave by Mumford & Sons
    Bewitched by The Wedding Present
    You Forgot by Railroad Jerk
    PS:

    Thanks for the insight as to how the FS works sometimes. I have heard similar stories and it's not hard to believe they know how to sidetrack a project they personally don't think should be built.

    Fortunately, on Aerie after we got the archeological approval be started construction like a racehorse out the starting gate. By the time we asked for the approved FS signage for the completed sections we had done there wasn't any reason to slow down due to PERFECT building conditions.

    We could build and ride the trail to get a compacted trail bed which really moved the project forward at a fast pace because we didn't need to spend much time compacting the outside edge.

    TD

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    PS:

    Thanks for the insight as to how the FS works sometimes. I have heard similar stories and it's not hard to believe they know how to sidetrack a project they personally don't think should be built.



    TD

    TD,

    There needs to be an ongoing discusion about what we riders can do to hold our land managers acountable to us. People here love our public land, that is clear. They have a pasion for riding and want and expect our land managers to do a bit more to serve our needs.

    I'm afraid I cannot begin that discusion at this time because they both watch this site and have people from MTBR reporting to them. They already removed me from my current assignment building the reroute on the AZ Trail, as a result of MTBR members telling them I was somehow breaking the law and riding during a closure after the Shultz Fire. Have you ever been out on a ride and been tracked down by FS LEO's and arrested mid-ride? Surreal, to be sure. I will discuss the whole episode in detail on a new thread, once my trail project is completed. I would also like to discuss with members how out trails are built and maintained, from funding to hiring crews to decisions about what gets priority. Again, I can't speak until October because I do not wish to be removed from my project until it is completed.

    Hopefully, we won't find out that one of our favorite trails in Flagstaff, Little Bear Trail, could have been restored and reopened by early spring, but will not be because someone forgot to get the funding used before it expired. That is something local riders need to vigilantly remind their land managers at the Peaks Ranger District to get on the calendar and get completed ASAP.

    Looking forward to sharing insights with you and MTBR members in hopes of getting the most out of our land managers.

    PS

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son

    I'm afraid I cannot begin that discusion at this time because they both watch this site and have people from MTBR reporting to them. They already removed me from my current assignment building the reroute on the AZ Trail, as a result of MTBR members telling them I was somehow breaking the law and riding during a closure after the Shultz Fire. Have you ever been out on a ride and been tracked down by FS LEO's and arrested mid-ride? Surreal, to be sure. I will discuss the whole episode in detail on a new thread, once my trail project is completed.
    PS
    TPS, I've seen you make this accusation twice now. Do you really believe a mtbr member ratted you out the FS? Were you actually arrested or just questioned?

    Either way, the forest closure didn't go into effect until 3pm the day you got close to the fire on L. Bear and snapped your pics. Presumably you had accessed the forest prior to the closure so how can the FS arrest or ticket you unless you were observed crossing the barriers?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman
    TPS, I've seen you make this accusation twice now. Do you really believe a mtbr member ratted you out the FS? Were you actually arrested or just questioned?

    Either way, the forest closure didn't go into effect until 3pm the day you got close to the fire on L. Bear and snapped your pics. Presumably you had accessed the forest prior to the closure so how can the FS arrest or ticket you unless you were observed crossing the barriers?

    Rockman,

    It was the FS employee who contacted the LEO's and sent them out to arrest me who later told me he was contacted by an MTBR member. I guess he could have made it up.

    I was hoping everyone would see it the way you did and realize there were many of us out riding and hiking the day after the fire, before the closure took effect. I began my ride in the A.M. and only saw the barricades and closure signs as I was leaving Lower Brookbank Trail.


    The LEO's were holding a pile of pictures, that were copies of posts made on the Schultz Fire thread. The LEO's, the person who sent them, and even the top ranking person at the Peaks all thought I had committed a crime. They told me so. The investigation began on Wednesday, three days after the fire began. They were apparently confused by the lack of a time stamp on each post. They were unable to look at a post that said it was written two or three days earlier and do the math to see I was not out during the closure. They all felt I was out taking those pictures on Tuesday, despite posting the pictures on Monday. What really upset me was they contacted my employer before they had done a full investigation, or even spoke to me, and said I would no longer be allowed to supervise the trail project I had proposed and planned to supervise on a section of the AZ Trail. They tossed me under the bus so quickly, without calling me and asking what I had to say. I felt I was denied due process. I was also unable to confront my accuser, who's identity the FS felt needed to be kept confidential. I feel betrayed by people I have given thousands of hours of my time to. People I once trusted and worked side by side with. I won't quit doing volunteer work on our trails but I won't put trust certain people in the future.

  74. #74
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    Hey TPS,

    This will probably be a hot topic with many in the community as accountability cuts both ways.


    That said I have to wonder how many in our community realize that there are OTHER trail user groups who continually work to limit/thwart our use and access (albeit passive-aggressively). They are better funded, more organized, and seem to know people in high places.

    I completely agree with you.
    I think we need an "accountability model". Additionally, I think there are many examples that have already been created outside of our two wheeled world. So, we shouldn't have to re-invent the wheel (ha ha). I think that collaboration is the key. Each of us in the mtb community has at least one skill that we can use to help:

    Step 1: Document It
    Take pictures and video and write a short summary of the event/time etc.

    Step 2:
    Fact Check It
    Reach out to the community to find a legal type willing to work pro-bono to provide oversight/make sure the facts are straight and
    clearly argue/demonstrate the case/trend(s)

    Step 3:
    Orgainize and Publish It
    Reach out to the community to find someone who is good at organizing photo, video, summaries etc. to help
    publish it here and elsewhere on line (kinda like the mtb version of wikipedia)

    Step 4: Present It
    Reach out to the community to find somenone who is a professional creative type to help create an effective presentation using the case data/trends collected and put it on line. Send a copy of the presentation to the USFS with recommendations/proposed solutions

    Step 5: Defend It
    Reach out to the community to find someone who is good at coming up with ways to raise $$ in case it is needed (organizational, legal etc.)

    Sounds like a lot of work to me. But I am hoping that if we break up the work into bite size peices we can all spend a little bit of time helping out and more time on the bike.

    BTW I am not advocating bureaucracy or legal wrangling. In fact I'm not certain that this is EXACTLY the way to go... but, we've been trying to use "the carrot" for a long time now. Maybe it's time we got us a stick as a back-up plan?

    Seems like there is a groundswell of interest and participation from local riders of late. This is in no small way due to the fact that we we've had a few successes and that their are a lot of potentially fun projects on the horizon. Maybe there's an opportunity to have some fun and fix some stuff at the same time. Maybe a big ride and bbq where we kick around some ideas over an adult beverage. Time to use this momentum and pull together.

    I'll get off the soapbox now.

    Kinda feel like we're hijacking TD's thread. Maybe this is a subject that needs to have it's own thread? Or better yet sticky?

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son

    TD,

    There needs to be an ongoing discusion about what we riders can do to hold our land managers acountable to us. People here love our public land, that is clear. They have a pasion for riding and want and expect our land managers to do a bit more to serve our needs.

    I'm afraid I cannot begin that discusion at this time because they both watch this site and have people from MTBR reporting to them. They already removed me from my current assignment building the reroute on the AZ Trail, as a result of MTBR members telling them I was somehow breaking the law and riding during a closure after the Shultz Fire. Have you ever been out on a ride and been tracked down by FS LEO's and arrested mid-ride? Surreal, to be sure. I will discuss the whole episode in detail on a new thread, once my trail project is completed. I would also like to discuss with members how out trails are built and maintained, from funding to hiring crews to decisions about what gets priority. Again, I can't speak until October because I do not wish to be removed from my project until it is completed.

    Hopefully, we won't find out that one of our favorite trails in Flagstaff, Little Bear Trail, could have been restored and reopened by early spring, but will not be because someone forgot to get the funding used before it expired. That is something local riders need to vigilantly remind their land managers at the Peaks Ranger District to get on the calendar and get completed ASAP.

    Looking forward to sharing insights with you and MTBR members in hopes of getting the most out of our land managers.

    PS
    PS :

    When you talk about the reopening of the Little Bear trail how many estimated man-hours would you estimate it would take an experienced volunteer group to clear the trail. Has anyone walked the trail and documented by video how much of the trail is unrideable to give us volunteers who might want to volunteer our time to make it rideable again.

    Am I wrong in visualizing that there is a lot of ash and some downed trees covering the trail, but the tread hasn't been destroyed? Seems like a bunch of not so experience volunteers could drag off alot of that ash with McLeods or garden racks pretty easily to speed up the process. What am I missing here?

    Are volunteers who own chain saws allowed to use them in cutting out the trees covering the trail?

    I look forward to you new thread after completing your project in October.

    TD

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    PS :

    When you talk about the reopening of the Little Bear trail how many estimated man-hours would you estimate it would take an experienced volunteer group to clear the trail. Has anyone walked the trail and documented by video how much of the trail is unrideable to give us volunteers who might want to volunteer our time to make it rideable again.

    Am I wrong in visualizing that there is a lot of ash and some downed trees covering the trail, but the tread hasn't been destroyed? Seems like a bunch of not so experience volunteers could drag off alot of that ash with McLeods or garden racks pretty easily to speed up the process. What am I missing here?

    Are volunteers who own chain saws allowed to use them in cutting out the trees covering the trail?

    I look forward to you new thread after completing your project in October.

    TD
    TD,

    The really big trees that fell across the trail during the winter had all just been removed before the fire. There might not be a lot of fallen trees across the trail now. Hard to say since I have not spoken to anyone who's seen it. I find it odd, if not a bit disturbing that even FS employees I have spoken to say they haven't even seen the trail since the fire. What are they waiting for?

    I think the trail could be made ready to ride in one day, maybe two. I just can't picture anything that couldn't easily be fixed.

    My concern is that the Forest Service went into a complete panic during the fire, and allowed out of town dozer crews to run up and down Little Elden Trail, causing massive destruction. I really hope I'm wrong but I did run into that one dozer crew plowing right over the trail near Elden Springs, when the fire was miles away and moving north.

    I think any ash has long since washed down the side of the mountain. Most of what burned was on the ground, plus a few trees. The stuff that burned on the ground was probably good for the forest. It might mean we are somewhat safe from a big canopy fire for years to come. The FS almost never allows people to use chainsaws. They want their people doing the cutting. I've seen a few exceptions and I myself once got permission to use a chainsaw to remove a fallen tree.

    I just can't figure out the local trail people working for the FS. They are working on a trail in Munds Park, and have been for quite some time. It is their top priority. Try to figure that one out. I guess it had something to do with a lawsuit or a judge telling them to vuild a trail down there. Meanwhile, maybe they are waiting for more money to be sent from Washintgton that they can use to pay for trail restoration on Elden. The paper said they got $2.7 million, but that seems to be getting used to make the homes close to the fire safe from flooding. It seems so strange they want to keep news of Little Bear a secret, rather than give us updates or a timeline for when they plan to open it. I just hate it when I find out six months too late that people in charge forgot to fill out a form or apply for certain funding and they lost the ability to fix a trail until a year later, when funding is next available. That is why I like it when riders keep on top of matters and make calls and ask questions.

    I can't think of anything I'd enjoy more than to hike up Little Bear with you and others, cleaning it up and getting it ready to ride again. I hope we don't need an act of congress to get this started.

    P.S.


    last three...

    3 A.M. by Guadalcanal Diary
    Rousabout by Bow Wow Wow
    Hell's Ditch by The Pogues

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON
    Hey TPS,

    This will probably be a hot topic with many in the community as accountability cuts both ways.


    That said I have to wonder how many in our community realize that there are OTHER trail user groups who continually work to limit/thwart our use and access (albeit passive-aggressively). They are better funded, more organized, and seem to know people in high places.

    I completely agree with you.
    I think we need an "accountability model". Additionally, I think there are many examples that have already been created outside of our two wheeled world. So, we shouldn't have to re-invent the wheel (ha ha). I think that collaboration is the key. Each of us in the mtb community has at least one skill that we can use to help:

    Step 1: Document It
    Take pictures and video and write a short summary of the event/time etc.

    Step 2:
    Fact Check It
    Reach out to the community to find a legal type willing to work pro-bono to provide oversight/make sure the facts are straight and
    clearly argue/demonstrate the case/trend(s)

    Step 3:
    Orgainize and Publish It
    Reach out to the community to find someone who is good at organizing photo, video, summaries etc. to help
    publish it here and elsewhere on line (kinda like the mtb version of wikipedia)

    Step 4: Present It
    Reach out to the community to find somenone who is a professional creative type to help create an effective presentation using the case data/trends collected and put it on line. Send a copy of the presentation to the USFS with recommendations/proposed solutions

    Step 5: Defend It
    Reach out to the community to find someone who is good at coming up with ways to raise $$ in case it is needed (organizational, legal etc.)

    Sounds like a lot of work to me. But I am hoping that if we break up the work into bite size peices we can all spend a little bit of time helping out and more time on the bike.

    BTW I am not advocating bureaucracy or legal wrangling. In fact I'm not certain that this is EXACTLY the way to go... but, we've been trying to use "the carrot" for a long time now. Maybe it's time we got us a stick as a back-up plan?

    Seems like there is a groundswell of interest and participation from local riders of late. This is in no small way due to the fact that we we've had a few successes and that their are a lot of potentially fun projects on the horizon. Maybe there's an opportunity to have some fun and fix some stuff at the same time. Maybe a big ride and bbq where we kick around some ideas over an adult beverage. Time to use this momentum and pull together.

    I'll get off the soapbox now.

    Kinda feel like we're hijacking TD's thread. Maybe this is a subject that needs to have it's own thread? Or better yet sticky?
    CB:

    If you can get volunteers for all those steps you definitely will have accomplished a miracle. I am curious if you are willing to do some or all the steps yourself if only a few volunteers step up to help out.

    I personally am into MTBR and EveryTrail marketing efforts, future FS new trail projects, re-routes on current system trails, and creating a better signage system of existing trails.

    I believe we have a worthy trail system and from a mountain bikers point of view, I would be happy if we could bring all of the non-system trails into the system, and have a dedicated group of volunteers onboard to keep those trails maintained. It would be nice to be a maintenance project coodinator someday, rather than a day laborer.

    You obviously have a broader view of what needs to be done and I hope it works out.

    TD

  78. #78
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    Hey TD, Here is a copy of the Sedona trails Update from Jennifer Burns of the Red Rock Ranger District. It gives some background info on the Aeria trail and other trails in the area. Lots of things happening up there in Sedonuts.

    REDROCK RANGER DISTRICT TRAILS UPDATE – SUMMER 2011

    Any comments or questions please contact: Jennifer Burns, Red Rock District Recreation Staff Officer, Paul Hart, District Trails, Wilderness and Wild and Scenic Rivers Coordinator, or Angela Abel, Volunteer Coordinator all at 928-203-7500.

    A lot of trail work has happened and it’s a good time for an update. I hope everyone is having a great summer on their favorite trails. Some areas of the District have received nice rains, increasing soil moisture and making trail maintenance and construction especially effective. Crews, including Youth Conservation Corps, Coconino Rural Environmental Corps, Friends of the Forest, and individual volunteers have been out working to improve several District trails this summer. Thanks to everyone who has given a bit of themselves to our great trail system.

    Aerie Trail:
    This trail is about 90 percent complete. The trail parallels Boynton Canyon Road and links the Aerie, Doe, Fay, and Boynton trailheads with a new narrow-tread trail open to hikers, bikers and horses. Layout and construction has been almost exclusively by volunteers. It’s going to be a great addition to the Dry Creek trail system creating numerous loop opportunities. For history of the trail, go to the end of this update. Trail construction is expected through October.

    Scheurmann Mountain Trail – This trail is still closed to public access from the High School Trailhead due to construction of the solar panels at the HS. The trail will be re-routed through the HS property this fall and open for use.

    YCC – Youth Conservation Corps (a part of Americorp) worked 8 weeks in the heat of the summer for the District. The 8 person crew was highschoolers from Sedona, Flagstaff and Cottonwood and learned a lot about trail construction and maintenance. Under Paul Hart’s direction they constructed a new trail to link Highway 179 to the Bell Rock Pathway…an extension of the Bell Rock Trail. They also constructed a scenic view trail at the Yavapai Point turnout on Highway 179. Both projects are part of the on-going trail improvements at these two parking areas. Still to come: new sign kiosks and toilet improvements at these two turnouts.

    Red Rock Trails Planning – Many public comments have been received on the ideas for new trail additions in the Sedona area and the area north of Dead Horse Ranch State Park. These comments are being reviewed and summarized. Trail proposals are being surveyed by District resource staff (biologist, archaeologist, hydrologist). A status of the project should be available before the end of the year.

    Old Munds Wagon Trail – CREC (Coconino Rural Environmental Corps) worked for 8 days straight on the upper eroded section of this trail. They cleaned and reconstructed water bars along a very steep section. Let us know what you think of the work….

    Woods Canyon Trail – CREC camped out for 8 days 2.5 miles up this trail in the Munds Mountain Wilderness. They reconstructed tread and brushed trail in an area that had not seen maintenance in a decade. The trail had all but disappeared under rock fall and brush. What a beautiful trail, with a little water in the creek…

    Flume Trail (Fossil Creek) – This old road turned trail is open once again to the public. APS has pulled culverts and old trestle bridges as part of their restoration of Fossil Creek. The trail is now open to hikers and bikers (to the Wilderness Boundary). Horse use is not recommended due to the cliffy nature of some wash crossings. The trail connects to a parking area at the old Irving Power Plant site along Forest Road 708.

    COMING UP THIS FALL/WINTER/SPRING –

    Red Rock Trails Maintenance – The District was lucky to receive funding to hire CREC for a total of 4 ½ months for trail maintenance around the community of Sedona. They will focus on areas that are severely eroded from heavy rains and areas that require rock work. If you have locations to suggest, please let FS know.

    Trail Boss Workshop – Forest Service is asking for ideas for this winters Trail Boss training….what skills should be emphasized, what issues addressed, what areas worked on? If you have ideas or want to participate, contact Angela Abel, District Volunteer Coordinator.

    Student Conservation Association (SCA) – Two highly skilled SCA students have been hired for 6 months (starting now) to assist with trail patrols and visitor contacts in Wilderness areas close to Sedona, areas where thousands of people hike each year. Say hello when you see them. Another SCA student has been hired to assist with restoration activities associated with the Fossil Creek Wild and Scenic River.

    National Mountain Bike Patrol – This great idea is making good progress towards the day when patrollers are out on our trails answering questions and assisting people. Local rider Marti Glinsky has rallied support and volunteers to be patrollers, and a lot of training has already taken place. Sedona will be one of 62 towns working with IMBA (International Mountain Bike Association) to have an active mountain bike patrol. Forest Service is very supportive of this group since so many mountain bikers use Red Rock trails, and can benefit from the local knowledge of these patrollers. If you are interested contact our volunteer coordinator, Angela Abel at the District Office.

    Cornville Trails – Yavapai County and the Forest Service will work together to plann for trails associated with the Cohnville Trail, in the vicinity of Cornville. If you are interested in finding our more or being on a mailing list, please let Paul Hart know.

    Brins Mesa – Additional trail work will be done this winter in the Wilson Mesa, Brins Mesa area to address erosion issues. Impacts from the Brins Mesa Fire are still being mitigated.

    Volunteer Picnic – October 23rd is the annual volunteer picnic at the old Beaver Creek Ranger Station site. If you have been a volunteer and want to have fun and a great meal, call Angela Abel, volunteer coordinator at the District office for details.

    Aerie Trail Background:
    The Aerie Trail was originally planned as a mitigation measure for the paving of the Boynton Pass Road. The paving was required by the County in order for the Tree Farm (aerie) subdivision to be rezoned as a subdivision. Because subdivision construction would increase road traffic, Forest Service wanted an off-road trail alternative. Originally envisioned as a wide pathway the trail was instead designed as single track trail that is set further back from the road. Planning was done years ago when the paving occurred. All that remained were the site specific cultural clearances and the final alignment. Alignment was completed by Bob Tener, Bill Stafford, Phil Kincheloe, and Doug Brown. CREC and FOF built the segment from the Aerie Trailhead to the junction with the Cockscomb/Rupp. John Finch and several other volunteers have now completed the section from the Aerie Trailhead all the way to Boynton Trailhead. The Aerie Homeowners Association has contributed to signage and kiosks.

    The trails (Cockscomb and Aerie) are both Class 3 trails which are rugged and primitive in character, with tread 12-18” wide and brushed narrow. Likely the trail will become wider over time where it intersects with the four popular trailheads and narrower in the middle portions where it will get less use. It will be open to bikes, hikers, and horses. Likely there will be a substantial amount of hiker use once it’s discovered and people will access it for short hikes mostly from Faynd Bear. Expect a moderate amount of bike use from locals and others as it becomes discovered as a scenic and intermediate ride which connects with loops of various lengths in the Dry Creek area. Limited horse use, due to the presence of slick rock and the lack of really long trail lengths preferred by equestrians.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider
    Hey TD, Here is a copy of the Sedona trails Update from Jennifer Burns of the Red Rock Ranger District. It gives some background info on the Aeria trail and other trails in the area. Lots of things happening up there in Sedonuts.

    REDROCK RANGER DISTRICT TRAILS UPDATE – SUMMER 2011

    Any comments or questions please contact: Jennifer Burns, Red Rock District Recreation Staff Officer, Paul Hart, District Trails, Wilderness and Wild and Scenic Rivers Coordinator, or Angela Abel, Volunteer Coordinator all at 928-203-7500.

    A lot of trail work has happened and it’s a good time for an update. I hope everyone is having a great summer on their favorite trails. Some areas of the District have received nice rains, increasing soil moisture and making trail maintenance and construction especially effective. Crews, including Youth Conservation Corps, Coconino Rural Environmental Corps, Friends of the Forest, and individual volunteers have been out working to improve several District trails this summer. Thanks to everyone who has given a bit of themselves to our great trail system.

    Aerie Trail:
    This trail is about 90 percent complete. The trail parallels Boynton Canyon Road and links the Aerie, Doe, Fay, and Boynton trailheads with a new narrow-tread trail open to hikers, bikers and horses. Layout and construction has been almost exclusively by volunteers. It’s going to be a great addition to the Dry Creek trail system creating numerous loop opportunities. For history of the trail, go to the end of this update. Trail construction is expected through October.

    Scheurmann Mountain Trail – This trail is still closed to public access from the High School Trailhead due to construction of the solar panels at the HS. The trail will be re-routed through the HS property this fall and open for use.

    YCC – Youth Conservation Corps (a part of Americorp) worked 8 weeks in the heat of the summer for the District. The 8 person crew was highschoolers from Sedona, Flagstaff and Cottonwood and learned a lot about trail construction and maintenance. Under Paul Hart’s direction they constructed a new trail to link Highway 179 to the Bell Rock Pathway…an extension of the Bell Rock Trail. They also constructed a scenic view trail at the Yavapai Point turnout on Highway 179. Both projects are part of the on-going trail improvements at these two parking areas. Still to come: new sign kiosks and toilet improvements at these two turnouts.

    Red Rock Trails Planning – Many public comments have been received on the ideas for new trail additions in the Sedona area and the area north of Dead Horse Ranch State Park. These comments are being reviewed and summarized. Trail proposals are being surveyed by District resource staff (biologist, archaeologist, hydrologist). A status of the project should be available before the end of the year.

    Old Munds Wagon Trail – CREC (Coconino Rural Environmental Corps) worked for 8 days straight on the upper eroded section of this trail. They cleaned and reconstructed water bars along a very steep section. Let us know what you think of the work….

    Woods Canyon Trail – CREC camped out for 8 days 2.5 miles up this trail in the Munds Mountain Wilderness. They reconstructed tread and brushed trail in an area that had not seen maintenance in a decade. The trail had all but disappeared under rock fall and brush. What a beautiful trail, with a little water in the creek…

    Flume Trail (Fossil Creek) – This old road turned trail is open once again to the public. APS has pulled culverts and old trestle bridges as part of their restoration of Fossil Creek. The trail is now open to hikers and bikers (to the Wilderness Boundary). Horse use is not recommended due to the cliffy nature of some wash crossings. The trail connects to a parking area at the old Irving Power Plant site along Forest Road 708.

    COMING UP THIS FALL/WINTER/SPRING –

    Red Rock Trails Maintenance – The District was lucky to receive funding to hire CREC for a total of 4 ½ months for trail maintenance around the community of Sedona. They will focus on areas that are severely eroded from heavy rains and areas that require rock work. If you have locations to suggest, please let FS know.

    Trail Boss Workshop – Forest Service is asking for ideas for this winters Trail Boss training….what skills should be emphasized, what issues addressed, what areas worked on? If you have ideas or want to participate, contact Angela Abel, District Volunteer Coordinator.

    Student Conservation Association (SCA) – Two highly skilled SCA students have been hired for 6 months (starting now) to assist with trail patrols and visitor contacts in Wilderness areas close to Sedona, areas where thousands of people hike each year. Say hello when you see them. Another SCA student has been hired to assist with restoration activities associated with the Fossil Creek Wild and Scenic River.

    National Mountain Bike Patrol – This great idea is making good progress towards the day when patrollers are out on our trails answering questions and assisting people. Local rider Marti Glinsky has rallied support and volunteers to be patrollers, and a lot of training has already taken place. Sedona will be one of 62 towns working with IMBA (International Mountain Bike Association) to have an active mountain bike patrol. Forest Service is very supportive of this group since so many mountain bikers use Red Rock trails, and can benefit from the local knowledge of these patrollers. If you are interested contact our volunteer coordinator, Angela Abel at the District Office.

    Cornville Trails – Yavapai County and the Forest Service will work together to plann for trails associated with the Cohnville Trail, in the vicinity of Cornville. If you are interested in finding our more or being on a mailing list, please let Paul Hart know.

    Brins Mesa – Additional trail work will be done this winter in the Wilson Mesa, Brins Mesa area to address erosion issues. Impacts from the Brins Mesa Fire are still being mitigated.

    Volunteer Picnic – October 23rd is the annual volunteer picnic at the old Beaver Creek Ranger Station site. If you have been a volunteer and want to have fun and a great meal, call Angela Abel, volunteer coordinator at the District office for details.

    Aerie Trail Background:
    The Aerie Trail was originally planned as a mitigation measure for the paving of the Boynton Pass Road. The paving was required by the County in order for the Tree Farm (aerie) subdivision to be rezoned as a subdivision. Because subdivision construction would increase road traffic, Forest Service wanted an off-road trail alternative. Originally envisioned as a wide pathway the trail was instead designed as single track trail that is set further back from the road. Planning was done years ago when the paving occurred. All that remained were the site specific cultural clearances and the final alignment. Alignment was completed by Bob Tener, Bill Stafford, Phil Kincheloe, and Doug Brown. CREC and FOF built the segment from the Aerie Trailhead to the junction with the Cockscomb/Rupp. John Finch and several other volunteers have now completed the section from the Aerie Trailhead all the way to Boynton Trailhead. The Aerie Homeowners Association has contributed to signage and kiosks.

    The trails (Cockscomb and Aerie) are both Class 3 trails which are rugged and primitive in character, with tread 12-18” wide and brushed narrow. Likely the trail will become wider over time where it intersects with the four popular trailheads and narrower in the middle portions where it will get less use. It will be open to bikes, hikers, and horses. Likely there will be a substantial amount of hiker use once it’s discovered and people will access it for short hikes mostly from Faynd Bear. Expect a moderate amount of bike use from locals and others as it becomes discovered as a scenic and intermediate ride which connects with loops of various lengths in the Dry Creek area. Limited horse use, due to the presence of slick rock and the lack of really long trail lengths preferred by equestrians.
    ER:

    Thanks for the headsup. It is nice to see that the mountain biking community is getting some credit for building what hopefully be a nice addition to the Sedona trail network. I think Aerie could be incorporated into Chad's epic rides as a nice addition.

    Thanks agai to all those who steppd it up and helped with the project:

    h2ojunkie
    chalkpaw
    Roger
    Wes
    Phil
    RobZona
    Danny the Window Man
    tls36
    Janet Levy
    and the Mt. Bike Heaven Crew for riding the trail in over the previous three Sunday rides

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 09-09-2010 at 09:33 PM.

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