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  1. #1
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    New Questions For the 12/20 RTCA Meeting- Please Help

    I have suggested that the facilitator of the Sedona RTCA meetings post her questions prior to the meeting I will be going over the questions and trying to provide appropriate answers. If you know answers to any of those questions please let me know what your answers are.

    If you know of a much better electronic method to have people discuss these questions please set it up for me, so I can suggest it to the people who will be attending the next meeting.


    RTCA 12/20/12 MEETING QUESTIONS that will be for small group work:

    What about our current trail system works well for you as a (hiker, biker, equestrian)? Why?
    What about our current trail system does not meet the needs of you as a (hiker, biker, equestrian)? Why?
    What do you see as the future trends for trail use in this area and surrounding areas (northern Arizona)?
    What other areas (Verde Valley and surrounding 100 miles) do you go to for trail use? Why?
    What benefits does (hiking, biking, equestrian) use bring to the area? Why?
    What percent of trail use is (hiking, biking, equestrian) use?

  2. #2
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    OK I answered all the questions, except the last one, I have no idea what the percentages are so does anyone know what they are?

    I don't know why walkers and trail runners weren't included. They are referred to in the Sedona City postings as separate user groups.

    They also didn't include wheel chair users and that might not sit well with those users.

  3. #3
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    Use a free subscription to surveymonkey (SurveyMonkey: Free online survey software & questionnaire tool). Send out the survey link or post on FB and be done.... enough of posting this all over MTBR.
    Your limits are both physical and mental. Suffering will help you find and overcome both.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Use a free subscription to surveymonkey (SurveyMonkey: Free online survey software & questionnaire tool). Send out the survey link or post on FB and be done.... enough of posting this all over MTBR.
    Ray:

    Could Cate develop a FB page and make a list of all attendees to invite to complete the ongoing questions? Would you be able to develop the 115 answers like the first meeting then the xxx at the second meeting. Then could new people join in? How often would you need meetings people physically attended for those old people who don' t use a computer??
    Last edited by traildoc; 12-08-2012 at 08:42 PM.

  5. #5
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    Your limits are both physical and mental. Suffering will help you find and overcome both.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Rat?
    Ray:

    I apologize my typing isn't very good and the y is next to the t. I have gone to four different people at the FS to find out what the answer to the last question is. I want to go to the next meeting and be the star of the class by having the exact percentages. We could be spending an hour on that one question and if I had the answer I could pass it around to all the mountain bikers and we could look a lot smarter than the we really are.

    Does any one think it might be a trick question? At the last meeting people felt I was off topic, so I am trying hard this time to give good answers. This is what I have come up with so far.

    If anyone has some other good answers please help me, I need help.

    1.What about our current trail system works well for you as a (hiker, biker, equestrian)? Why?

    As a mountain biker I ride mainly the user-built trails that are suitable for mountain bike use. I also ride the more recent adopted user built trails and enjoy them way more than the system trails that were built by non- mountain bikers. I really enjoy the trails in the Damifino area because of their beauty and technical nature and will miss them when the trails are naturalized.

    Why? Because they are enjoyable to ride and have features you don’t find in many other nearby areas.

    2. What about our current trail system does not meet the needs of you as a (hiker, biker, equestrian)? Why?

    The current mountain biking system does meet my needs, but when the Damifino trails are closed it would be nice to have something similar to replace them due to their very special character and such a unique location.

    Why? The user built trails were very well thought out. The FS didn’t provide mountain bike trails that weren't routed and built with the mountain biker user experience in mind. Many were horse trails and hiking trails that have sections that were unrideable by mountain bikers. Many hikers love the user-built mountain bike trails, but we are unable to ride most hiking trails built by hikers.

    3. What do you see as the future trends for trail use in this area and surrounding areas (northern Arizona)?

    My understanding is that mountain biking is the fastest growing sport for people under the age of 18, so I assuming mountain biking will become more and more popular. I also see where trail running is becoming very popular and while riding the trails, I like to ride, I see more and more trail runners.

    4. What other areas (Verde Valley and surrounding 100 miles) do you go to for trail use? Why?

    I go to Flagstaff during the summer months, otherwise I don’t leave paradise to go to another paradise.

    Why: It’s cooler during the hot summer months, and the riding is good there.

    5. What benefits does (hiking, biking, equestrian) use bring to the area? Why?

    1.Hiking and Biking bring vacationers to Sedona which in turn helps our local businesses to do more business and create new jobs which adds to the growth of the community.
    2. I purchased a house here it helped the past owner sell her home.
    3. Mountain biking makes me happy and the exercise I hope is good for me and helps to keep me healthy.
    4.We have over 50 mountain biking friends who travel to Sedona each to ride with us and spent their hard earned money on motels and dining out.

    Why?
    1. When you sell something you make a profit and a profit pays for your inventory and your salaries for your workers and your taxes to help your city pay their bills for their employees and their important services.
    2. When you purchase a home from a person who is selling it, it allows them to move to another property they might be wanting to move to. If there was no sale the people might not be able to move
    3. I like to recreate because I have fun doing so and I hope the exercise is good for my health.
    4.Those people by goods and services that help the local economy.


    6. What percent of trail use is (hiking, biking, equestrian) use?

    I have sent an email to Jennifer, Adrian, Angie, Kevin and Heather asking for percentages with no answer yet. I would say hikers are more popular, then mountain bikers, then equestrians.

    I don't know why walkers and trail runners weren't included. They are referred to in the Sedona City postings as separate user groups.

    Also you didn't include wheel chair users and that might not sit well with those users. Should they have a separate category?

  7. #7
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    Nice, succinct well thought out answers. I hope the next meeting goes better for you. Must be tough after your absence to walk back into the hornet's nest

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    At the last meeting people felt I was off topic, so I am trying hard this time to give good answers. This is what I have come up with so far.
    Just remember it is not about your answer and you will do fine. It is the answer that the group comes up with because there are many different stakeholders and the trails planning is not specific to mountain biking.

    For example, your answer for question 3 about future trends is focused solely on mountain bikers while someone with ties to the Oak Creek Watershed Council might focus on the increasing recreational use and access to Oak Creek. It's similar to the adopt a trail class I just finished in that I'm not so much teaching how to build a structure but rather educating the volunteers about the wide variety of trail users and their desires and requirements so that they see a bigger picture than they did prior to the class.

    If you really want to impress, try to think beyond mountain bikes. It shouldn't be your goal to be the 'star of the class' though...

    Every five years the Forest Service does a scientific survey of visitor use at a random sampling of sites. I'm not sure if there is a breakdown by district. Here is your data: National Visitor Use Monitoring

    The percentage of respondents listing mountain biking as their main activity went from 3.3% in 2005 to 3% in 2010. Hiking had a similar decline...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New Questions For the 12/20 RTCA Meeting- Please Help-main_activities_coconino_nf.png  

    Last edited by justinwp; 12-09-2012 at 01:19 PM. Reason: typo/clarification, adding data

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    It shouldn't be your goal to be the 'star of the class' though...
    Good luck with that one .

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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    Just remember it is not about your answer and you will do fine. It is the answer that the group comes up with because there are many different stakeholders and the trails planning is not specific to mountain biking.

    For example, your answer for question 3 about future trends is focused solely on mountain bikers while someone with ties to the Oak Creek Watershed Council might focus on the increasing recreational use and access to Oak Creek. It's similar to the adopt a trail class I just finished in that I'm not so much teaching how to build a structure but rather educating the volunteers about the wide variety of trail users and their desires and requirements so that they see a bigger picture than they did prior to the class.

    If you really want to impress, try to think beyond mountain bikes. It shouldn't be your goal to be the 'star of the class' though...

    Every five years the Forest Service does a scientific survey of visitor use at a random sampling of sites. I'm not sure if there is a breakdown by district. Here is your data: National Visitor Use Monitoring

    The percentage of respondents listing mountain biking as their main activity went from 3.3% in 2005 to 3% in 2010. Hiking had a similar decline...
    Justin:

    All the user built trails not adopted that I ride are hiker and trail runner friendly. The Westerners constantly are out on those trails and they reinforce the enjoyment they get out of hiking those trails so I am good with that. The trail runners never stop to talk so I am not exactly sure where they are at.

    In school I was never star in my class in fact I was the exact opposite. was a hard worker though so I was able to get by financially where many of the stars are still driving to work in grid lock traffic.

    Since you are the only one so far at the FS who is communicating with me at this point, have you given me the answer to the last question on Cate's list? I want to come to the class with the right answer?

  11. #11
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    TD,

    I'm not surprised that there was some friction at the last meeting and that people misunderstood where you were coming from.

    I think these facilitations are well intentioned but are designed for 'the herd'. I don't mean that in a derogatory way. What I am driving at is that NEW and better ideas are rarely created by the meek (you have no problems there!). People who put there heads down, stay quiet, and just jump through the hoops and follow instructions rarely make a significant impact. I'm guessing that Richard Branson might have taken the path less followed once or twice.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating destructive or illegal behavior. I am simply pointing out that if you want the RTCA process to work for you and everyone else in the mountain bike community than maybe you should sit down with a group of your local riders and agree to collectively ask for the outline of the RTCA process. This way you can understand it thoroughly, ask meaningful questions, and be even more proactive and prepared... Brown noser.

    What do you think?

    CB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON View Post
    TD,

    I'm not surprised that there was some friction at the last meeting and that people misunderstood where you were coming from.

    I think these facilitations are well intentioned but are designed for 'the herd'. I don't mean that in a derogatory way. What I am driving at is that NEW and better ideas are rarely created by the meek (you have no problems there!). People who put there heads down, stay quiet, and just jump through the hoops and follow instructions rarely make a significant impact. I'm guessing that Richard Branson might have taken the path less followed once or twice.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating destructive or illegal behavior. I am simply pointing out that if you want the RTCA process to work for you and everyone else in the mountain bike community than maybe you should sit down with a group of your local riders and agree to collectively ask for the outline of the RTCA process. This way you can understand it thoroughly, ask meaningful questions, and be even more proactive and prepared... Brown noser.

    What do you think?

    CB.
    Isn't the outline of the RTCA process already available on there website?

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    TD:

    Are you referring to the Q&A part of the site with these bullet points?:

    • Recruitment of a strong local group of project leaders and stakeholders
    • Identification of a group decision-making process
    • Establishment of a group mission, vision and goals by consensus
    • Definition of strong partner roles and responsibilities
    • Implementation of a small-scale, highly visible demonstration effort
    • The setting of achievable goals, recording of progress, and building momentum by celebrating small steps

    If this is in fact 'The Outline' you referred to:

    a) Do you believe that this process is detailed enough to allow you and other local stakeholders to thoroughly prepare in advance for each meeting?

    b) Do you have an idea of our current position (which points the group has completed)?

    c) Do you feel that the decisions made to this point that are guiding the e process are in fact being made by the consensus? If yes please support.

    d) Do you think that the majority of the participants would agree with your answers?

    Thanks for humoring me.

    CB.

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    That's WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT

    I still haven't heard back from any of the FS personal about question 6. listed below. I think Justin tried to help with the answer, but he didn't explain how the graph applied to the Trail Management Plan the Coconino National Forest is working on. There must have been a reason for him showing that graph and how it applies to Cates question number 6. I sure wish he would explain it better, I am my old dunce at the back of the class on this one.

    6. What percent of trail use is (hiking, biking, equestrian) use?

    I have sent an email to Jennifer, Adrian, Angie, Kevin and Heather asking for percentages with no answer yet. I would say hikers are more popular, then mountain bikers, then equestrians.

    I don't know why walkers and trail runners weren't included. They are referred to in the Sedona City postings as separate user groups.

    Also you didn't include wheel chair users and that might not sit well with those users. Should they have a separate category?

    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON View Post
    TD:

    Are you referring to the Q&A part of the site with these bullet points?:

    • Recruitment of a strong local group of project leaders and stakeholders
    • Identification of a group decision-making process
    • Establishment of a group mission, vision and goals by consensus
    • Definition of strong partner roles and responsibilities
    • Implementation of a small-scale, highly visible demonstration effort
    • The setting of achievable goals, recording of progress, and building momentum by celebrating small steps

    If this is in fact 'The Outline' you referred to:

    a) Do you believe that this process is detailed enough to allow you and other local stakeholders to thoroughly prepare in advance for each meeting?

    b) Do you have an idea of our current position (which points the group has completed)?

    c) Do you feel that the decisions made to this point that are guiding the e process are in fact being made by the consensus? If yes please support.

    d) Do you think that the majority of the participants would agree with your answers?

    Thanks for humoring me.

    CB.
    Last edited by traildoc; 12-10-2012 at 09:25 AM.

  16. #16
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    OK Heather P got back to me with the following question regarding the percentage of users for hikers, mountain bikers and equestrians:

    "As far as percentage of use by each user group, Jennifer is just looking for your gut impressions of that. We are collecting data on actual use on a couple of different fronts, so we’ll use that as well. Just to clarify, your role is as a participant, so no need to over do it on the prep….we’re not asking folks (at this point) to do a bunch of research. Any hard data questions, IMBA/the City/FS will handle. Thanks Heather"

    OK for myself I think the FS claims there are 4 million visitors to Sedona and the VOC and out of those 4 million 600,000 are trail users. Now the question is what percentage of the 600,000 trail users are hikers, mountain bikers and equestrians?

    I am in the process of calling the shops to find out what number of mountain bikers come to Sedona each year and how often they use the trails when they come here.

    One of the shops said their clientele has alot of people who come for six days and may ride several rides each day. I don't think that is normal for all the shops.

    Lets say there are 50,000 riders each year or 137 average on the trails each day during the year. that would mean 8.3% are mountain bikers and let's say 1.7% are equestrians that leaves 91% for all other users.

    If someone thinks the numbers are a lot different, I guess that is what I am going with.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    OK Heather P got back to me with the following question regarding the percentage of users for hikers, mountain bikers and equestrians:

    "As far as percentage of use by each user group, Jennifer is just looking for your gut impressions of that. We are collecting data on actual use on a couple of different fronts, so we’ll use that as well. Just to clarify, your role is as a participant, so no need to over do it on the prep….we’re not asking folks (at this point) to do a bunch of research. Any hard data questions, IMBA/the City/FS will handle. Thanks Heather"

    OK for myself I think the FS claims there are 4 million visitors to Sedona and the VOC and out of those 4 million 600,000 are trail users. Now the question is what percentage of the 600,000 trail users are hikers, mountain bikers and equestrians?

    I am in the process of calling the shops to find out what number of mountain bikers come to Sedona each year and how often they use the trails when they come here.

    One of the shops said their clientele has alot of people who come for six days and may ride several rides each day. I don't think that is normal for all the shops.

    Lets say there are 50,000 riders each year or 137 average on the trails each day during the year. that would mean 8.3% are mountain bikers and let's say 1.7% are equestrians that leaves 91% for all other users.

    If someone thinks the numbers are a lot different, I guess that is what I am going with.

    TD
    No, I don't think those numbers are accurate.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Use a free subscription to surveymonkey (SurveyMonkey: Free online survey software & questionnaire tool). Send out the survey link or post on FB and be done.... enough of posting this all over MTBR.

    I agree. I am so SICK of the endless threads started by Traildoc and his long-winded posts all over the Arizona section of MTBR. It is like a daily soap opera. Please, please stop and go away.
    -boom

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    Quote Originally Posted by boomvader View Post
    I agree. I am so SICK of the endless threads started by Traildoc and his long-winded posts all over the Arizona section of MTBR. It is like a daily soap opera. Please, please stop and go away.
    boom:

    Soap operas are very popular especially when they document the history of what's going on in Sedona.

  20. #20
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    Doc,


    I realize that you are on a mission but, why did you not answer my questions?

    CB

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    Quote Originally Posted by CANADIANBACON View Post
    Doc,


    I realize that you are on a mission but, why did you not answer my questions?

    CB
    Are these the questions? Do you know someone stole the Secret Slickrock sign and post?


    a) Do you believe that this process is detailed enough to allow you and other local stakeholders to thoroughly prepare in advance for each meeting?

    b) Do you have an idea of our current position (which points the group has completed)?

    c) Do you feel that the decisions made to this point that are guiding the e process are in fact being made by the consensus? If yes please support.

    d) Do you think that the majority of the participants would agree with your answers?

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