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  1. #1
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    Looking to Ride with Tuna and Welcome Him to Sedona

    I went on a Wednesday ride today with the old owner of Mountain Bike Heaven and a touron, Peter, from Rockford, IL who was riding with flats and plastic toe clips. Peter was definitely out of his normal riding element, but he had courage and good judgement, which afforded him to enjoy the ride. The ride was Ridge to Old Ridge to Lemonade to Sketch to Ridge to Buddha Beach to Pyramid to Cake Walk to Old Post to Carroll Canyon to Ridge to the Recycle Center.

    During the ride I asked Rama if he has ridden with the new Red Rock Ranger known by his close friends as Tuna. Rama indicated that he had gotten an email from the FS asking if he wanted to meet with Tuna. Rama has indicated he would have liked to, but since he is moving to Hawaii that he would rather have the local mountain community go for a ride with Tuna and welcome him to Sedona personally.

    Many of us are curious what Tuna's goals and duties are, and because he was hired because of his mountain biking background how he is going to help make Sedona a better mountain biking destination than it already is. Many of us see Sedona as a work in progress that hopefully will continually evolve and improve the mountain biker user experience here.

    The point of getting together with Tuna would be first of all to meet him and welcome him to Sedona, Then like a bunch of dogs going to a new dog park we want to sniff him out and find out what his goals are and how we can help him attain our similar goals sooner rather than later.

    Maybe if someone reading this post knows Tuna they can give him a heads up so we can go on a really cool ride to initiate the bonding process. I would imagine he would want to do a ride on some trails he hasn't ridden previously and we could definitely put Something Different together.

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 07-13-2011 at 04:32 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I went on a Wednesday ride today with the old owner of Moutain Bike Heaven and a touron, Peter, from Rockford, IL who was riding with flats and plastic toe clips. Peter was definitely out of his normal riding element, but he had courage and good judgement, which afforded him to enjoy the ride. The ride was Ridge to Old Ridge to Lemonade to Sketch to Ridge to Buddha Beach to Pyramid to Cake Walk to Old Post to Carroll Canyon to Ridge to the Recycle Center.

    During the ride I asked Rama if he has ridden with the new Red Rock Ranger known by his close friends as Tuna. Rama indicated that he had gotten an email from the FS asking if he wanted to meet with Tuna. Rama has indicated he would have liked to, but since he is moving to Hawaii that he would rather have the local mountain community go for a ride with Tuna and welcome him to Sedona personally.

    Many of us are curious what Tuna's goals and duties are, and because he was hired because of his mountain biking background how he is going to help make Sedona a better mountain biking destination than it already is. Many of us see Sedona as a work in progress that hopefully will continually evolve and improve the mountain biker user experience here.

    The point of getting together with Tuna would be first of all to meet him and welcome him to Sedona, Then like a bunch of dogs going to a new dog park we want to sniff him out and find out what his goals are and how we can help him attain our similar goals sooner rather than later.

    Maybe if someone reading this post knows Tuna they can give him a heads up so we can go on a really cool ride to initiate the bonding process. I would imagine he would want to do a ride on some trails he hasn't ridden previously and we could definitely put Something Different together.

    TD
    What did the FS said when you called them and asked to meet/ride with Tuna. We await your ride report.
    Last edited by Casual Observer; 07-13-2011 at 04:13 PM.
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  3. #3
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    I dont know Tuna personally but I have heard he is the chicken of the sea.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I dont know Tuna personally but I have heard he is the chicken of the sea.
    think you meant chicken of the sea-donyeah
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire View Post
    I'd be curious to know what the FS said when you called them and asked to meet/ride with Tuna. We await you ride report.
    st:

    There you go again making fun of the traildoc and how he operates. That being said he took the bait and called the Red Rock Ranger District to talk with Ranger Tuna personally. When I got the office on the line and asked for Tuna they didn't know who I was talking about.

    I went into the whole thing about Tuna being a new employee who was a mountain biker that was supposedly going to be working to improve the mountain biker user experience in Sedona. That really got the operator to put on her thinking cap, and she transferred me to Ext. 7531 where voicemail answered for Paul Hart.

    Paul Hart was the Trail Maintenance Supervisor who doesn't have one nice thing to say about me (can you imagine?),and decided this Sedona job sucks, and he has left for greener pastures in Cali. I understand his assistant has also left the Red Rock Ranger District, so I guess Justin is the man in charge, but I could be wrong.

    Anyway I left a message on Paul's extention for Ranger Tuna to give me a call to see if we could get together and do a ride on some of the good stuff. Highline would certainly be my choice with a little Transcept dessert at the end. Maybe Justin could join us, I would be happy to let him borrow the trusty G-Spot, which would work great on the backside of Highline.

    Hopefully, he will return my call so we can schedule a ride. I wonder if he also rides on his days off? Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

    TD
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    st:

    There you go again making fun of the traildoc and how he operates. That being said he took the bait and called the Red Rock Ranger District to talk with Ranger Tuna personally.
    See how easy that was?
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    I'll pass on your message. Tuna is rarely in the office since he only works part-time.

    Paul got an awesome job in California that better fits his career goals and what he is passionate about. His position is currently unfilled and I'm not sure what the plan is for it. He never had an "assistant". He was an excellent supervisor and he will be missed. He got work done and told you how it was. I'm not speaking for Paul, but realizing all of the different work that we are responsible for on this district and then being approached by a small segment of users who often are rude and uncooperative, its no wonder why Paul may have felt the way he did towards the mountain bike community as a whole and some of the more vocal individuals. Mountain bikers are only a small segment of visitors here when you consider the bus loads of tourists and Fossil Creek drunks... Personally I would rather just build sweet rock structures and trails for all of you instead of minimizing the impacts of these other groups but it doesn't work that way.

    For the next couple months, I will be making a workplan for this fall, winter and spring. Much of it is going to be focused on the 'new' trails that are being added into the system. There was a plan for a temporary archaeologist to be hired with rec money for reroutes and fixes of current system trails but that was also canceled for some bureaucratic reason.

    If you can convince Jennifer to let me go for a ride on work time, I would be more than willing to go. I already work weekends here too often and at this point I cannot spend much time in and around Sedona without having it feel like work so I tend to go other places on my time off.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    I'll pass on your message. Tuna is rarely in the office since he only works part-time.

    Paul got an awesome job in California that better fits his career goals and what he is passionate about. His position is currently unfilled and I'm not sure what the plan is for it. He never had an "assistant". He was an excellent supervisor and he will be missed. He got work done and told you how it was. I'm not speaking for Paul, but realizing all of the different work that we are responsible for on this district and then being approached by a small segment of users who often are rude and uncooperative, its no wonder why Paul may have felt the way he did towards the mountain bike community as a whole and some of the more vocal individuals. Mountain bikers are only a small segment of visitors here when you consider the bus loads of tourists and Fossil Creek drunks... Personally I would rather just build sweet rock structures and trails for all of you instead of minimizing the impacts of these other groups but it doesn't work that way.

    For the next couple months, I will be making a workplan for this fall, winter and spring. Much of it is going to be focused on the 'new' trails that are being added into the system. There was a plan for a temporary archaeologist to be hired with rec money for reroutes and fixes of current system trails but that was also canceled for some bureaucratic reason.

    If you can convince Jennifer to let me go for a ride on work time, I would be more than willing to go. I already work weekends here too often and at this point I cannot spend much time in and around Sedona without having it feel like work so I tend to go other places on my time off.
    justin;

    Thanks for the response and insights. I was under the impression that Brenna was an assistant to Paul because several of the projects I worked on that Paul oversaw she was with him to review what was going on. She didn't like the rock work I was doing on the Aerie trail and every time I ride the trail I wonder if she had a point, so far so good.

    You have given some interesting insight as to the mountain bikers being a small segment of visitors (users?) that you have to deal with compared to bus loads of tourists and the Fossil Creek crowd.

    I am curious if you have any idea as to what Tuna's goals are as respect to the small segment of mountain bike users. Is it mainly mountain bike related or will he also be interacting with the larger group of tourists and party types out at Fossil Creek leaving garbage everywhere. I don't ever see garbage out on the non-system trails, so I know that's not an issue.

    As respects to the trails coming into the system have they given you a list of which trails are being adopted first and what kind of work will be necessary to bring them up to spec.
    When I walked the trails with the hydrologist he indicated there weren't a lot of sustainability issues with the Anaconda, Anaconda Bypass, Lost Watch, Snake, Touron, Chuckwagon and Mescal trails, so I would be surprised if a lot of work needs to be done other than signage, some water diverters, and some short reroute sections.

    When we worked with Paul on Aerie he kept stressing about having to sign off on what he considered to be an inferior trail project. My partner on the project and I just didn't get what the problems were. I guess many of those problems still exist out there and only time will tell how big they were.

    The trails mentioned above have been hiked and ridden for years successfully, and it will be interesting where you think the problem areas are. Besides short reroutes it seems to me they could easily be signed and rock jailed (Lost Watch) then sit back and see what happens,

    Jennifer did mention that part of Mescal needed to be re-routed due to going through an archeological site (that I have looked for several times but never could find anything).
    Apparently an old abandoned Jeep Road also goes through the site, so maybe all the artifacts have been removed years ago.

    Thanks again for the insights.

    TD

  9. #9
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    You have given some interesting insight as to the mountain bikers being a small segment of visitors (users?) that you have to deal with compared to bus loads of tourists and the Fossil Creek crowd.
    I have actually only done what I consider trail work maybe 5 days in the last month and a half. I've been working on other projects such as picnic areas at trailheads, painting and roofing shade shelters, cutting up a giant boulder for some steps at Palatki and so on. It will be nice to do some trail work again with the soil moisture a little higher.

    As respects to the trails coming into the system have they given you a list of which trails are being adopted first and what kind of work will be necessary to bring them up to spec.
    When I walked the trails with the hydrologist he indicated there weren't a lot of sustainability issues with the Anaconda, Anaconda Bypass, Lost Watch, Snake, Touron, Chuckwagon and Mescal trails, so I would be surprised if a lot of work needs to be done other than signage, some water diverters, and some short reroute sections
    There will be a lot of work, especially when you consider that use levels will probably jump as soon as they are signed and on the map. It won't just a small worn in bike trail anymore.


    When we worked with Paul on Aerie he kept stressing about having to sign off on what he considered to be an inferior trail project. My partner on the project and I just didn't get what the problems were. I guess many of those problems still exist out there and only time will tell how big they were.
    I haven't been on all of Aerie but I was recently on a section near the nose(?) that needs some type of retaining wall and the bench to be recut. It appears to me that much of the tread in this area was built on fill that never packed. I know the goal is to keep it from being to wide of a trail when constructing it, but next time a full bench will be better to start with and then just let it narrow over time. There is more work to be done here and we just had a YCC crew up there for a few days.

    The trails mentioned above have been hiked and ridden for years successfully, and it will be interesting where you think the problem areas are. Besides short reroutes it seems to me they could easily be signed and rock jailed (Lost Watch) then sit back and see what happens,
    The fact that a trail can be ridden does not mean there are not other problems. It needs to be looked at while thinking in terms of decades of use and erosion. Is the level of change acceptable or is it accelerating?
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  10. #10
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    I for one appreciate this kind of dialogue. Thanks for the efforts from both of you, coming at it from different POVs but hopefully meeting in the middle.

    I'm not sure about the patrolling Tuda dude or what he really has to add to the mix but hopefully he will have a first aid kit

  11. #11
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    Rock:

    Thanks for chimming in as usual you are the ultimate diplomat.

    Justin:

    I just need to make some points about the full bench thing before I retire for the evening. In my experience if you have enough rock on the outside edge to support the loose soil that will compact to a high percentage of compaction, why would you want to go to all the extra work (4 X's) to do a full bench?

    While working on the Aerie trail, Paul came out to see what was going on. He and Brenna had been walking from the Boynton Pass Parking lot for about 1.8 miles to a point west of the section the YYY worked on. Paul looked distraught and Brenna did'n't look much happier. It may have been one of the most depressing days of their lives.

    Paul made the comment to me, "what are you going to do with all the rock on the outside edge sticking up higher than the trail surface?" At that point I knew he and I have a different feel of how a trail can be built to be sustainable w/o doing 4X's the amount of work.

    Your comment about doing a full bench (which makes the trail wider than a partial bench) then letting it narrow over time seems like a waste of effort to me, who is trying to build a sustainable fun trail in one quarter of the time. Since you indicate the trail will narrow naturally (which I don't always agree that it will depending on the steepness of the sideslope and prodominant user group) my POV is that it normally is a waste of time and money, especially if you have descent soil moisture when building the trail and not a lot of organic matter in the loose soil.

    Is it the asthetics of some of the larger rocks on the outside edge that Paul was opposed to, or some other reasoning that he didn't feel like sharing with me? If you can build a trail in 1/4 the time and come back a year later to deal with the several problematic spots is that not an acceptable strategy? Or is that just not acceptable, because it is just doesn't work that way based on your personal experience, or some other unknown reason to me?

    Russ from CREC suggested making the steep section of trail above the first left hand switchback on the STEEP Templeton climb wider. It had naturally narrowed with years of erosion to a narrower section of trail from it's original full bench construction. I told him I thought it was a low priority compared to the rest of the work that we discussed. As it turned out the crew ran out of time and money to do all the higher priority work on the total climb section. If they had spent their time on making that narrowed section wider it would have been a waste of money IMHO. It has been almost two years since then, and I personally see nothing wrong with that section of trail other than it needs some preventative outsloping to reduce rutting potential.

    I wjsh Tuna could have an Army shovel in his pack to address those easy fix spots on the FS trail system before they grow into something that takes more effort to fix. Since I don't usually carry an army shovel, I find a sharp flat rock to outslope a short section, if I am not trying to keep up with my buddies. I get a sense of accomplishment from those little improvements that no one even notices have been done a couple days later, but I observe their effectiveness over the years.

    Sketch is a good example of a trail that looks like had minimal initial benching and has matured over the years to it's existing pretty sustainable state. It seems to only get better as years go by. I don't see a lot of maintenance issues on it that need to be addressed at this point.The hikers I run into on that trail (like Highline) really seem to like it, especially the Carroll Canyon Overlook.

    Justin thanks again for your efforts and insights, for the rest of you who have gotten to this point are you pulling your hair out?

    TD

    PS- we do agree on one thing for sure "The most important part of trail work is in the laying out. Never begin to build a trail until the ground has been thoroughly gone over and the best route decided upon. It is an absolute waste of money to build a trail without a very definite idea of the best possible line to follow. - Gifford Pinchot, 1906"
    Last edited by traildoc; 07-14-2011 at 12:51 AM.

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    I gotta say a I think a full bench is the way to go, it is a much more "sure" thing especially if it is multi-use and horses are going to be using it. I'm pretty sure I have noticed all kinds of rock retaining walls on the narrow Sedona social trails failing even after only a short period of use and weather. If people are going to be forced to the edge because the bench is too narrow it's going to fail much sooner then a full bench. I don't see how this can be argued.

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    I observed a short section of Aerie on the nose or northeast side of Doe Mtn that could use a bit more bench cutting. It didn't seem like a big deal but the edge was failing. As for bench cutting it to make it more suitable for multi-use, it appears to me that it doesn't matter how wide a trail is; horses can't seem to stay on the trail anyway.

    At any rate, Aerie is a wonderful addition to the system. A trail entirely built by mtb volunteers at little or no expense to the Red Rock District. When I rode it after the big storm last October that dumped 4 or 5 inches of rain on Sedona I was impressed at how well it shed water. Much better than the Cockscomb section built by the FS. I mentioned as much to Jennifer myself when I talked to her shortly after. I can see why doc might be a little sensitive about improvements on it when there are so many other places that require the type of work Justin is doing so well (ie., major rock work). I'm not sure what can be done to improve the Templeton climb out of Budhu Beach short of dynamite but what's up with the crappy fall line climb out of Carrol Canyon on Ramshead? Or why not just close the southern part of Ridge all together and adopt Sketch (oddly that one isn't even on the FS list for adoption).

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I gotta say a I think a full bench is the way to go, it is a much more "sure" thing especially if it is multi-use and horses are going to be using it. I'm pretty sure I have noticed all kinds of rock retaining walls on the narrow Sedona social trails failing even after only a short period of use and weather. If people are going to be forced to the edge because the bench is too narrow it's going to fail much sooner then a full bench. I don't see how this can be argued.
    ra:

    Since you are very familiar with the Sedona trail system it would be great if you could help with identifying where those problematic sections of trail are that need full benching. I believe the first "new trails" to be adopted are: Anaconda, Anaconda Bypass, Snake, Lost Watch, Touron and Mescal.

    Then once that list is completed I believe Made in the Shade and Slim Shady will be the next trails the FS will be adopting so, if and when you are riding those trails please note problematic areas that need to be fully benched or new rock work. I think Ranger Tuna may have already been out there, so maybe he has already put a list together himself, and when we meet I will ask him.

    Hold off on a list for Sick Boy, Rock & Roll and that new section of trail above Chicken Point. Those trails won't be adopted in this first go around.

    I will be suggesting to Ranger Tuna that we ride the first list of trails, if he hasn't done so already, to get his input as to what a FS ranger thinks about those trails and areas of concern he has or "wow dude those trails are great."

    Any help you can provide would be appreciated, maybe even woahey could help. He seems to becoming very familiar with the social trail system.

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 07-14-2011 at 10:32 AM.

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    Ranger TUNA in the house!!!

    A little bird told me peeps are looking for me on MTBR. So here I'am. Bit about myself... I've been working for the FS, Park Service, or the Fish and Wildlife Service one way or the other or the last eleven years. Primarily fire but also a bit in recreation. I moved to here from the Ocala NF in Florida back in November where I was part of the fire crew. I don't miss the humidity! I do miss fishing for things that consider us part of the food chain. The Red Rocks District called me one day and offered me the mt. biking ranger position. I was like, um....... get paid to ride!?!? Hells ya!!!! I'm kinda a retired and I only work part time on the Red Rocks district to avoid going into shock from a 40 hr work week. I'm not ready to come completely out of retirement yet. So baby steps! My days on are Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I usually hit the trails around 5:30 because of the heat. But I do stay out way past sundown and test the limits of my night vision. I will be at the VVCC meeting on the 16th so feel free to say hello to me. I'm pretty darn friendly. I will be more than happy to ride with anyone. But keep in mind I have been a rock climber first and cyclist second till recently. So my biking skills need to be tweaked a bit. Please be kind and not laugh too much at me. Anyway, my rides with all you local rides aren't only about having a hoot shredding trails, I'm also interested in gathering beta about the trail system. My primary goal is to collect your concerns and comments about the Sedona trail system. Feel free to get a hold of me by e-mail. I got one of them fancy android phones and I check my e-mails constantly. tooonaboy at gmail. I look forward to getting to know and shredding trails with all of the Sedona trail users.

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    Welcome to the circus

    I'm curious, besides ascertaining how users feel about the trail network, what the other duties of a mtn biking ranger are? Sounds like a cool job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TUNABOY View Post
    A little bird told me peeps are looking for me on MTBR. So here I'am. Bit about myself... I've been working for the FS, Park Service, or the Fish and Wildlife Service one way or the other or the last eleven years. Primarily fire but also a bit in recreation. I moved to here from the Ocala NF in Florida back in November where I was part of the fire crew. I don't miss the humidity! I do miss fishing for things that consider us part of the food chain. The Red Rocks District called me one day and offered me the mt. biking ranger position. I was like, um....... get paid to ride!?!? Hells ya!!!! I'm kinda a retired and I only work part time on the Red Rocks district to avoid going into shock from a 40 hr work week. I'm not ready to come completely out of retirement yet. So baby steps! My days on are Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I usually hit the trails around 5:30 because of the heat. But I do stay out way past sundown and test the limits of my night vision. I will be at the VVCC meeting on the 16th so feel free to say hello to me. I'm pretty darn friendly. I will be more than happy to ride with anyone. But keep in mind I have been a rock climber first and cyclist second till recently. So my biking skills need to be tweaked a bit. Please be kind and not laugh too much at me. Anyway, my rides with all you local rides aren't only about having a hoot shredding trails, I'm also interested in gathering beta about the trail system. My primary goal is to collect your concerns and comments about the Sedona trail system. Feel free to get a hold of me by e-mail. I got one of them fancy android phones and I check my e-mails constantly. tooonaboy at gmail. I look forward to getting to know and shredding trails with all of the Sedona trail users.
    Tuna:

    Looking forward to riding with you, what are your plans for tomorrow morning? Per my email to you, I am also hoping you can help us improve the mountain biker user experience in Sedona. I sent the email to mcwoodhouse@fed.gov.us, I will cc: to toonaboy@gmail.com.

    TD
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    I believe Im gonna ride with Daniel Padachowski and the VVCC at 5:00 tomorow. Not sure if they are going to road ride or trail ride. Dan said he would bring his mt. bike so we could hit some trails. Im bringing my slicks just in case. Then after the ride the VVCC is having their anual meeting and dinner starting at 7:00 and Jennifer wants me to attend and do some meet and greet. As far as riding the trails with you it looks like Sunday will be best. I really want to get a tour of Soldiers Wash area and maybe get it GPSed. Also tonight Im thinking about riding the Easy Breezy or maybe the Mescal. If i do Mescal i'll throw in Chuck Wagon. Let me know for Sunday.

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    Shredding Trails!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Welcome to the circus

    I'm curious, besides ascertaining how users feel about the trail network, what the other duties of a mtn biking ranger are? Sounds like a cool job.
    Document erosion and trail conditions. Find new a creative ways to improve the trail system. Help organize and educate voulnteers. Public outreach and orientation with trail users. And of course a little bit of trail shredding!!!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TUNABOY View Post
    I believe Im gonna ride with Daniel Padachowski and the VVCC at 5:00 tomorow. Not sure if they are going to road ride or trail ride. Dan said he would bring his mt. bike so we could hit some trails. Im bringing my slicks just in case. Then after the ride the VVCC is having their anual meeting and dinner starting at 7:00 and Jennifer wants me to attend and do some meet and greet. As far as riding the trails with you it looks like Sunday will be best. I really want to get a tour of Soldiers Wash area and maybe get it GPSed. Also tonight Im thinking about riding the Easy Breezy or maybe the Mescal. If i do Mescal i'll throw in Chuck Wagon. Let me know for Sunday.
    Tuna:

    I am a little confused. You are employed by the FS to do riding on mountain biking trails, so you are possibly doing a road ride with Daniel. What can be accomplished riding the road with Daniel on FS time? Sorry if I am confused, but if you are going to mountain bike with him tomorrow, and I can join you I would be up for that.

    As far as Sunday goes I am also up for that ride. If you want to do Mescal tonight let me know. I just finished Hangover, but could show you Mescal and Canyon of Fools for dessert.

    TD

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    This may seem all warm and fuzzy but it also sounds a little........fishy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    This may seem all warm and fuzzy but it also sounds a little........fishy.
    Ditto

    I understand Daniel is looking to improve the road riding experience in the Sedona and Page Springs area by having a street sweeper come out the day before a big road ride and have the roads swept. Maybe Daniel is going to show Tuna how badly the road conditions are in Sedona and try and redirect the Forest Service efforts towards street sweeping,

    I still remain optimistic at this point.

    TD

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    Skinny:

    You haven't chimed in yet. What is your insightful analysis at this point? At this point we have learned Tuna wants to work on the following:

    Find new creative ways to improve the trail system.
    Help organize and educate volunteers.
    Do public outreach and orientation with trail users.

    I personally am wondering what new creative ways and improving the trail system means. Not sure if the MTBR viewers are for traildoc type improvements, so hopefully Tuna has something different in mind

    Organize and educate volunteers sounds good. Specifics would help, so we could start the process earlier rather than later. The internet is a great way get information out quickly.

    Public outreach and orientation with trail users sounds positive, but a little too vague for me to know what that might be about. Maybe they are going to show videos of how the mountain bikers and FS have worked together to build trails in other areas. That would be nice.

    Looking forward to your analysis.

    TD

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Tuna:

    I am a little confused. You are employed by the FS to do riding on mountain biking trails, so you are possibly doing a road ride with Daniel. What can be accomplished riding the road with Daniel on FS time? Sorry if I am confused, but if you are going to mountain bike with him tomorrow, and I can join you I would be up for that.

    As far as Sunday goes I am also up for that ride. If you want to do Mescal tonight let me know. I just finished Hangover, but could show you Mescal and Canyon of Fools for dessert.

    TD
    I obviously I have this all wrong. You are going to do some type of group ride with the Verde Valley Cycling Coalition at 5:00PM not an early ride like you have been doing recently. That obviously is a club event for club riders and since I am not a member I would not be joining.

    Hopefully the VVCC will be helpful in helping you accomplish your goals or getting you out to do road rides for mountain biking conditioning.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I obviously I have this all wrong. You are going to do some type of group ride with the Verde Valley Cycling Coalition at 5:00PM not an early ride like you have been doing recently. That obviously is a club event for club riders and since I am not a member I would not be joining.

    Hopefully the VVCC will be helpful in helping you accomplish your goals or getting you out to do road rides for mountain biking conditioning.

    TD
    Pump up your road bike tires and go for the ride, they won't turn you away. Meet some new people.

    VVCC does mountain bike stuff too you know, they're involved with developing a trail system near Cornville for one thing. Not the kind of trails you'd be caught dead on though.
    something's missing..

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