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  1. #1
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    Looking to Ride with Tuna and Welcome Him to Sedona

    I went on a Wednesday ride today with the old owner of Mountain Bike Heaven and a touron, Peter, from Rockford, IL who was riding with flats and plastic toe clips. Peter was definitely out of his normal riding element, but he had courage and good judgement, which afforded him to enjoy the ride. The ride was Ridge to Old Ridge to Lemonade to Sketch to Ridge to Buddha Beach to Pyramid to Cake Walk to Old Post to Carroll Canyon to Ridge to the Recycle Center.

    During the ride I asked Rama if he has ridden with the new Red Rock Ranger known by his close friends as Tuna. Rama indicated that he had gotten an email from the FS asking if he wanted to meet with Tuna. Rama has indicated he would have liked to, but since he is moving to Hawaii that he would rather have the local mountain community go for a ride with Tuna and welcome him to Sedona personally.

    Many of us are curious what Tuna's goals and duties are, and because he was hired because of his mountain biking background how he is going to help make Sedona a better mountain biking destination than it already is. Many of us see Sedona as a work in progress that hopefully will continually evolve and improve the mountain biker user experience here.

    The point of getting together with Tuna would be first of all to meet him and welcome him to Sedona, Then like a bunch of dogs going to a new dog park we want to sniff him out and find out what his goals are and how we can help him attain our similar goals sooner rather than later.

    Maybe if someone reading this post knows Tuna they can give him a heads up so we can go on a really cool ride to initiate the bonding process. I would imagine he would want to do a ride on some trails he hasn't ridden previously and we could definitely put Something Different together.

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 07-13-2011 at 04:32 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I went on a Wednesday ride today with the old owner of Moutain Bike Heaven and a touron, Peter, from Rockford, IL who was riding with flats and plastic toe clips. Peter was definitely out of his normal riding element, but he had courage and good judgement, which afforded him to enjoy the ride. The ride was Ridge to Old Ridge to Lemonade to Sketch to Ridge to Buddha Beach to Pyramid to Cake Walk to Old Post to Carroll Canyon to Ridge to the Recycle Center.

    During the ride I asked Rama if he has ridden with the new Red Rock Ranger known by his close friends as Tuna. Rama indicated that he had gotten an email from the FS asking if he wanted to meet with Tuna. Rama has indicated he would have liked to, but since he is moving to Hawaii that he would rather have the local mountain community go for a ride with Tuna and welcome him to Sedona personally.

    Many of us are curious what Tuna's goals and duties are, and because he was hired because of his mountain biking background how he is going to help make Sedona a better mountain biking destination than it already is. Many of us see Sedona as a work in progress that hopefully will continually evolve and improve the mountain biker user experience here.

    The point of getting together with Tuna would be first of all to meet him and welcome him to Sedona, Then like a bunch of dogs going to a new dog park we want to sniff him out and find out what his goals are and how we can help him attain our similar goals sooner rather than later.

    Maybe if someone reading this post knows Tuna they can give him a heads up so we can go on a really cool ride to initiate the bonding process. I would imagine he would want to do a ride on some trails he hasn't ridden previously and we could definitely put Something Different together.

    TD
    What did the FS said when you called them and asked to meet/ride with Tuna. We await your ride report.
    Last edited by Casual Observer; 07-13-2011 at 04:13 PM.
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  3. #3
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    I dont know Tuna personally but I have heard he is the chicken of the sea.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I dont know Tuna personally but I have heard he is the chicken of the sea.
    think you meant chicken of the sea-donyeah
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire View Post
    I'd be curious to know what the FS said when you called them and asked to meet/ride with Tuna. We await you ride report.
    st:

    There you go again making fun of the traildoc and how he operates. That being said he took the bait and called the Red Rock Ranger District to talk with Ranger Tuna personally. When I got the office on the line and asked for Tuna they didn't know who I was talking about.

    I went into the whole thing about Tuna being a new employee who was a mountain biker that was supposedly going to be working to improve the mountain biker user experience in Sedona. That really got the operator to put on her thinking cap, and she transferred me to Ext. 7531 where voicemail answered for Paul Hart.

    Paul Hart was the Trail Maintenance Supervisor who doesn't have one nice thing to say about me (can you imagine?),and decided this Sedona job sucks, and he has left for greener pastures in Cali. I understand his assistant has also left the Red Rock Ranger District, so I guess Justin is the man in charge, but I could be wrong.

    Anyway I left a message on Paul's extention for Ranger Tuna to give me a call to see if we could get together and do a ride on some of the good stuff. Highline would certainly be my choice with a little Transcept dessert at the end. Maybe Justin could join us, I would be happy to let him borrow the trusty G-Spot, which would work great on the backside of Highline.

    Hopefully, he will return my call so we can schedule a ride. I wonder if he also rides on his days off? Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

    TD
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    st:

    There you go again making fun of the traildoc and how he operates. That being said he took the bait and called the Red Rock Ranger District to talk with Ranger Tuna personally.
    See how easy that was?
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    I'll pass on your message. Tuna is rarely in the office since he only works part-time.

    Paul got an awesome job in California that better fits his career goals and what he is passionate about. His position is currently unfilled and I'm not sure what the plan is for it. He never had an "assistant". He was an excellent supervisor and he will be missed. He got work done and told you how it was. I'm not speaking for Paul, but realizing all of the different work that we are responsible for on this district and then being approached by a small segment of users who often are rude and uncooperative, its no wonder why Paul may have felt the way he did towards the mountain bike community as a whole and some of the more vocal individuals. Mountain bikers are only a small segment of visitors here when you consider the bus loads of tourists and Fossil Creek drunks... Personally I would rather just build sweet rock structures and trails for all of you instead of minimizing the impacts of these other groups but it doesn't work that way.

    For the next couple months, I will be making a workplan for this fall, winter and spring. Much of it is going to be focused on the 'new' trails that are being added into the system. There was a plan for a temporary archaeologist to be hired with rec money for reroutes and fixes of current system trails but that was also canceled for some bureaucratic reason.

    If you can convince Jennifer to let me go for a ride on work time, I would be more than willing to go. I already work weekends here too often and at this point I cannot spend much time in and around Sedona without having it feel like work so I tend to go other places on my time off.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    I'll pass on your message. Tuna is rarely in the office since he only works part-time.

    Paul got an awesome job in California that better fits his career goals and what he is passionate about. His position is currently unfilled and I'm not sure what the plan is for it. He never had an "assistant". He was an excellent supervisor and he will be missed. He got work done and told you how it was. I'm not speaking for Paul, but realizing all of the different work that we are responsible for on this district and then being approached by a small segment of users who often are rude and uncooperative, its no wonder why Paul may have felt the way he did towards the mountain bike community as a whole and some of the more vocal individuals. Mountain bikers are only a small segment of visitors here when you consider the bus loads of tourists and Fossil Creek drunks... Personally I would rather just build sweet rock structures and trails for all of you instead of minimizing the impacts of these other groups but it doesn't work that way.

    For the next couple months, I will be making a workplan for this fall, winter and spring. Much of it is going to be focused on the 'new' trails that are being added into the system. There was a plan for a temporary archaeologist to be hired with rec money for reroutes and fixes of current system trails but that was also canceled for some bureaucratic reason.

    If you can convince Jennifer to let me go for a ride on work time, I would be more than willing to go. I already work weekends here too often and at this point I cannot spend much time in and around Sedona without having it feel like work so I tend to go other places on my time off.
    justin;

    Thanks for the response and insights. I was under the impression that Brenna was an assistant to Paul because several of the projects I worked on that Paul oversaw she was with him to review what was going on. She didn't like the rock work I was doing on the Aerie trail and every time I ride the trail I wonder if she had a point, so far so good.

    You have given some interesting insight as to the mountain bikers being a small segment of visitors (users?) that you have to deal with compared to bus loads of tourists and the Fossil Creek crowd.

    I am curious if you have any idea as to what Tuna's goals are as respect to the small segment of mountain bike users. Is it mainly mountain bike related or will he also be interacting with the larger group of tourists and party types out at Fossil Creek leaving garbage everywhere. I don't ever see garbage out on the non-system trails, so I know that's not an issue.

    As respects to the trails coming into the system have they given you a list of which trails are being adopted first and what kind of work will be necessary to bring them up to spec.
    When I walked the trails with the hydrologist he indicated there weren't a lot of sustainability issues with the Anaconda, Anaconda Bypass, Lost Watch, Snake, Touron, Chuckwagon and Mescal trails, so I would be surprised if a lot of work needs to be done other than signage, some water diverters, and some short reroute sections.

    When we worked with Paul on Aerie he kept stressing about having to sign off on what he considered to be an inferior trail project. My partner on the project and I just didn't get what the problems were. I guess many of those problems still exist out there and only time will tell how big they were.

    The trails mentioned above have been hiked and ridden for years successfully, and it will be interesting where you think the problem areas are. Besides short reroutes it seems to me they could easily be signed and rock jailed (Lost Watch) then sit back and see what happens,

    Jennifer did mention that part of Mescal needed to be re-routed due to going through an archeological site (that I have looked for several times but never could find anything).
    Apparently an old abandoned Jeep Road also goes through the site, so maybe all the artifacts have been removed years ago.

    Thanks again for the insights.

    TD

  9. #9
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    You have given some interesting insight as to the mountain bikers being a small segment of visitors (users?) that you have to deal with compared to bus loads of tourists and the Fossil Creek crowd.
    I have actually only done what I consider trail work maybe 5 days in the last month and a half. I've been working on other projects such as picnic areas at trailheads, painting and roofing shade shelters, cutting up a giant boulder for some steps at Palatki and so on. It will be nice to do some trail work again with the soil moisture a little higher.

    As respects to the trails coming into the system have they given you a list of which trails are being adopted first and what kind of work will be necessary to bring them up to spec.
    When I walked the trails with the hydrologist he indicated there weren't a lot of sustainability issues with the Anaconda, Anaconda Bypass, Lost Watch, Snake, Touron, Chuckwagon and Mescal trails, so I would be surprised if a lot of work needs to be done other than signage, some water diverters, and some short reroute sections
    There will be a lot of work, especially when you consider that use levels will probably jump as soon as they are signed and on the map. It won't just a small worn in bike trail anymore.


    When we worked with Paul on Aerie he kept stressing about having to sign off on what he considered to be an inferior trail project. My partner on the project and I just didn't get what the problems were. I guess many of those problems still exist out there and only time will tell how big they were.
    I haven't been on all of Aerie but I was recently on a section near the nose(?) that needs some type of retaining wall and the bench to be recut. It appears to me that much of the tread in this area was built on fill that never packed. I know the goal is to keep it from being to wide of a trail when constructing it, but next time a full bench will be better to start with and then just let it narrow over time. There is more work to be done here and we just had a YCC crew up there for a few days.

    The trails mentioned above have been hiked and ridden for years successfully, and it will be interesting where you think the problem areas are. Besides short reroutes it seems to me they could easily be signed and rock jailed (Lost Watch) then sit back and see what happens,
    The fact that a trail can be ridden does not mean there are not other problems. It needs to be looked at while thinking in terms of decades of use and erosion. Is the level of change acceptable or is it accelerating?
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  10. #10
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    I for one appreciate this kind of dialogue. Thanks for the efforts from both of you, coming at it from different POVs but hopefully meeting in the middle.

    I'm not sure about the patrolling Tuda dude or what he really has to add to the mix but hopefully he will have a first aid kit

  11. #11
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    Rock:

    Thanks for chimming in as usual you are the ultimate diplomat.

    Justin:

    I just need to make some points about the full bench thing before I retire for the evening. In my experience if you have enough rock on the outside edge to support the loose soil that will compact to a high percentage of compaction, why would you want to go to all the extra work (4 X's) to do a full bench?

    While working on the Aerie trail, Paul came out to see what was going on. He and Brenna had been walking from the Boynton Pass Parking lot for about 1.8 miles to a point west of the section the YYY worked on. Paul looked distraught and Brenna did'n't look much happier. It may have been one of the most depressing days of their lives.

    Paul made the comment to me, "what are you going to do with all the rock on the outside edge sticking up higher than the trail surface?" At that point I knew he and I have a different feel of how a trail can be built to be sustainable w/o doing 4X's the amount of work.

    Your comment about doing a full bench (which makes the trail wider than a partial bench) then letting it narrow over time seems like a waste of effort to me, who is trying to build a sustainable fun trail in one quarter of the time. Since you indicate the trail will narrow naturally (which I don't always agree that it will depending on the steepness of the sideslope and prodominant user group) my POV is that it normally is a waste of time and money, especially if you have descent soil moisture when building the trail and not a lot of organic matter in the loose soil.

    Is it the asthetics of some of the larger rocks on the outside edge that Paul was opposed to, or some other reasoning that he didn't feel like sharing with me? If you can build a trail in 1/4 the time and come back a year later to deal with the several problematic spots is that not an acceptable strategy? Or is that just not acceptable, because it is just doesn't work that way based on your personal experience, or some other unknown reason to me?

    Russ from CREC suggested making the steep section of trail above the first left hand switchback on the STEEP Templeton climb wider. It had naturally narrowed with years of erosion to a narrower section of trail from it's original full bench construction. I told him I thought it was a low priority compared to the rest of the work that we discussed. As it turned out the crew ran out of time and money to do all the higher priority work on the total climb section. If they had spent their time on making that narrowed section wider it would have been a waste of money IMHO. It has been almost two years since then, and I personally see nothing wrong with that section of trail other than it needs some preventative outsloping to reduce rutting potential.

    I wjsh Tuna could have an Army shovel in his pack to address those easy fix spots on the FS trail system before they grow into something that takes more effort to fix. Since I don't usually carry an army shovel, I find a sharp flat rock to outslope a short section, if I am not trying to keep up with my buddies. I get a sense of accomplishment from those little improvements that no one even notices have been done a couple days later, but I observe their effectiveness over the years.

    Sketch is a good example of a trail that looks like had minimal initial benching and has matured over the years to it's existing pretty sustainable state. It seems to only get better as years go by. I don't see a lot of maintenance issues on it that need to be addressed at this point.The hikers I run into on that trail (like Highline) really seem to like it, especially the Carroll Canyon Overlook.

    Justin thanks again for your efforts and insights, for the rest of you who have gotten to this point are you pulling your hair out?

    TD

    PS- we do agree on one thing for sure "The most important part of trail work is in the laying out. Never begin to build a trail until the ground has been thoroughly gone over and the best route decided upon. It is an absolute waste of money to build a trail without a very definite idea of the best possible line to follow. - Gifford Pinchot, 1906"
    Last edited by traildoc; 07-14-2011 at 12:51 AM.

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    I gotta say a I think a full bench is the way to go, it is a much more "sure" thing especially if it is multi-use and horses are going to be using it. I'm pretty sure I have noticed all kinds of rock retaining walls on the narrow Sedona social trails failing even after only a short period of use and weather. If people are going to be forced to the edge because the bench is too narrow it's going to fail much sooner then a full bench. I don't see how this can be argued.

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    I observed a short section of Aerie on the nose or northeast side of Doe Mtn that could use a bit more bench cutting. It didn't seem like a big deal but the edge was failing. As for bench cutting it to make it more suitable for multi-use, it appears to me that it doesn't matter how wide a trail is; horses can't seem to stay on the trail anyway.

    At any rate, Aerie is a wonderful addition to the system. A trail entirely built by mtb volunteers at little or no expense to the Red Rock District. When I rode it after the big storm last October that dumped 4 or 5 inches of rain on Sedona I was impressed at how well it shed water. Much better than the Cockscomb section built by the FS. I mentioned as much to Jennifer myself when I talked to her shortly after. I can see why doc might be a little sensitive about improvements on it when there are so many other places that require the type of work Justin is doing so well (ie., major rock work). I'm not sure what can be done to improve the Templeton climb out of Budhu Beach short of dynamite but what's up with the crappy fall line climb out of Carrol Canyon on Ramshead? Or why not just close the southern part of Ridge all together and adopt Sketch (oddly that one isn't even on the FS list for adoption).

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I gotta say a I think a full bench is the way to go, it is a much more "sure" thing especially if it is multi-use and horses are going to be using it. I'm pretty sure I have noticed all kinds of rock retaining walls on the narrow Sedona social trails failing even after only a short period of use and weather. If people are going to be forced to the edge because the bench is too narrow it's going to fail much sooner then a full bench. I don't see how this can be argued.
    ra:

    Since you are very familiar with the Sedona trail system it would be great if you could help with identifying where those problematic sections of trail are that need full benching. I believe the first "new trails" to be adopted are: Anaconda, Anaconda Bypass, Snake, Lost Watch, Touron and Mescal.

    Then once that list is completed I believe Made in the Shade and Slim Shady will be the next trails the FS will be adopting so, if and when you are riding those trails please note problematic areas that need to be fully benched or new rock work. I think Ranger Tuna may have already been out there, so maybe he has already put a list together himself, and when we meet I will ask him.

    Hold off on a list for Sick Boy, Rock & Roll and that new section of trail above Chicken Point. Those trails won't be adopted in this first go around.

    I will be suggesting to Ranger Tuna that we ride the first list of trails, if he hasn't done so already, to get his input as to what a FS ranger thinks about those trails and areas of concern he has or "wow dude those trails are great."

    Any help you can provide would be appreciated, maybe even woahey could help. He seems to becoming very familiar with the social trail system.

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 07-14-2011 at 10:32 AM.

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    Ranger TUNA in the house!!!

    A little bird told me peeps are looking for me on MTBR. So here I'am. Bit about myself... I've been working for the FS, Park Service, or the Fish and Wildlife Service one way or the other or the last eleven years. Primarily fire but also a bit in recreation. I moved to here from the Ocala NF in Florida back in November where I was part of the fire crew. I don't miss the humidity! I do miss fishing for things that consider us part of the food chain. The Red Rocks District called me one day and offered me the mt. biking ranger position. I was like, um....... get paid to ride!?!? Hells ya!!!! I'm kinda a retired and I only work part time on the Red Rocks district to avoid going into shock from a 40 hr work week. I'm not ready to come completely out of retirement yet. So baby steps! My days on are Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I usually hit the trails around 5:30 because of the heat. But I do stay out way past sundown and test the limits of my night vision. I will be at the VVCC meeting on the 16th so feel free to say hello to me. I'm pretty darn friendly. I will be more than happy to ride with anyone. But keep in mind I have been a rock climber first and cyclist second till recently. So my biking skills need to be tweaked a bit. Please be kind and not laugh too much at me. Anyway, my rides with all you local rides aren't only about having a hoot shredding trails, I'm also interested in gathering beta about the trail system. My primary goal is to collect your concerns and comments about the Sedona trail system. Feel free to get a hold of me by e-mail. I got one of them fancy android phones and I check my e-mails constantly. tooonaboy at gmail. I look forward to getting to know and shredding trails with all of the Sedona trail users.

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    Welcome to the circus

    I'm curious, besides ascertaining how users feel about the trail network, what the other duties of a mtn biking ranger are? Sounds like a cool job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TUNABOY View Post
    A little bird told me peeps are looking for me on MTBR. So here I'am. Bit about myself... I've been working for the FS, Park Service, or the Fish and Wildlife Service one way or the other or the last eleven years. Primarily fire but also a bit in recreation. I moved to here from the Ocala NF in Florida back in November where I was part of the fire crew. I don't miss the humidity! I do miss fishing for things that consider us part of the food chain. The Red Rocks District called me one day and offered me the mt. biking ranger position. I was like, um....... get paid to ride!?!? Hells ya!!!! I'm kinda a retired and I only work part time on the Red Rocks district to avoid going into shock from a 40 hr work week. I'm not ready to come completely out of retirement yet. So baby steps! My days on are Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I usually hit the trails around 5:30 because of the heat. But I do stay out way past sundown and test the limits of my night vision. I will be at the VVCC meeting on the 16th so feel free to say hello to me. I'm pretty darn friendly. I will be more than happy to ride with anyone. But keep in mind I have been a rock climber first and cyclist second till recently. So my biking skills need to be tweaked a bit. Please be kind and not laugh too much at me. Anyway, my rides with all you local rides aren't only about having a hoot shredding trails, I'm also interested in gathering beta about the trail system. My primary goal is to collect your concerns and comments about the Sedona trail system. Feel free to get a hold of me by e-mail. I got one of them fancy android phones and I check my e-mails constantly. tooonaboy at gmail. I look forward to getting to know and shredding trails with all of the Sedona trail users.
    Tuna:

    Looking forward to riding with you, what are your plans for tomorrow morning? Per my email to you, I am also hoping you can help us improve the mountain biker user experience in Sedona. I sent the email to mcwoodhouse@fed.gov.us, I will cc: to toonaboy@gmail.com.

    TD
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    I believe Im gonna ride with Daniel Padachowski and the VVCC at 5:00 tomorow. Not sure if they are going to road ride or trail ride. Dan said he would bring his mt. bike so we could hit some trails. Im bringing my slicks just in case. Then after the ride the VVCC is having their anual meeting and dinner starting at 7:00 and Jennifer wants me to attend and do some meet and greet. As far as riding the trails with you it looks like Sunday will be best. I really want to get a tour of Soldiers Wash area and maybe get it GPSed. Also tonight Im thinking about riding the Easy Breezy or maybe the Mescal. If i do Mescal i'll throw in Chuck Wagon. Let me know for Sunday.

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    Shredding Trails!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Welcome to the circus

    I'm curious, besides ascertaining how users feel about the trail network, what the other duties of a mtn biking ranger are? Sounds like a cool job.
    Document erosion and trail conditions. Find new a creative ways to improve the trail system. Help organize and educate voulnteers. Public outreach and orientation with trail users. And of course a little bit of trail shredding!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TUNABOY View Post
    I believe Im gonna ride with Daniel Padachowski and the VVCC at 5:00 tomorow. Not sure if they are going to road ride or trail ride. Dan said he would bring his mt. bike so we could hit some trails. Im bringing my slicks just in case. Then after the ride the VVCC is having their anual meeting and dinner starting at 7:00 and Jennifer wants me to attend and do some meet and greet. As far as riding the trails with you it looks like Sunday will be best. I really want to get a tour of Soldiers Wash area and maybe get it GPSed. Also tonight Im thinking about riding the Easy Breezy or maybe the Mescal. If i do Mescal i'll throw in Chuck Wagon. Let me know for Sunday.
    Tuna:

    I am a little confused. You are employed by the FS to do riding on mountain biking trails, so you are possibly doing a road ride with Daniel. What can be accomplished riding the road with Daniel on FS time? Sorry if I am confused, but if you are going to mountain bike with him tomorrow, and I can join you I would be up for that.

    As far as Sunday goes I am also up for that ride. If you want to do Mescal tonight let me know. I just finished Hangover, but could show you Mescal and Canyon of Fools for dessert.

    TD

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    This may seem all warm and fuzzy but it also sounds a little........fishy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    This may seem all warm and fuzzy but it also sounds a little........fishy.
    Ditto

    I understand Daniel is looking to improve the road riding experience in the Sedona and Page Springs area by having a street sweeper come out the day before a big road ride and have the roads swept. Maybe Daniel is going to show Tuna how badly the road conditions are in Sedona and try and redirect the Forest Service efforts towards street sweeping,

    I still remain optimistic at this point.

    TD

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    Skinny:

    You haven't chimed in yet. What is your insightful analysis at this point? At this point we have learned Tuna wants to work on the following:

    Find new creative ways to improve the trail system.
    Help organize and educate volunteers.
    Do public outreach and orientation with trail users.

    I personally am wondering what new creative ways and improving the trail system means. Not sure if the MTBR viewers are for traildoc type improvements, so hopefully Tuna has something different in mind

    Organize and educate volunteers sounds good. Specifics would help, so we could start the process earlier rather than later. The internet is a great way get information out quickly.

    Public outreach and orientation with trail users sounds positive, but a little too vague for me to know what that might be about. Maybe they are going to show videos of how the mountain bikers and FS have worked together to build trails in other areas. That would be nice.

    Looking forward to your analysis.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Tuna:

    I am a little confused. You are employed by the FS to do riding on mountain biking trails, so you are possibly doing a road ride with Daniel. What can be accomplished riding the road with Daniel on FS time? Sorry if I am confused, but if you are going to mountain bike with him tomorrow, and I can join you I would be up for that.

    As far as Sunday goes I am also up for that ride. If you want to do Mescal tonight let me know. I just finished Hangover, but could show you Mescal and Canyon of Fools for dessert.

    TD
    I obviously I have this all wrong. You are going to do some type of group ride with the Verde Valley Cycling Coalition at 5:00PM not an early ride like you have been doing recently. That obviously is a club event for club riders and since I am not a member I would not be joining.

    Hopefully the VVCC will be helpful in helping you accomplish your goals or getting you out to do road rides for mountain biking conditioning.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I obviously I have this all wrong. You are going to do some type of group ride with the Verde Valley Cycling Coalition at 5:00PM not an early ride like you have been doing recently. That obviously is a club event for club riders and since I am not a member I would not be joining.

    Hopefully the VVCC will be helpful in helping you accomplish your goals or getting you out to do road rides for mountain biking conditioning.

    TD
    Pump up your road bike tires and go for the ride, they won't turn you away. Meet some new people.

    VVCC does mountain bike stuff too you know, they're involved with developing a trail system near Cornville for one thing. Not the kind of trails you'd be caught dead on though.
    bikes, guns, dogs....perfect

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I gotta say a I think a full bench is the way to go, it is a much more "sure" thing especially if it is multi-use and horses are going to be using it. I'm pretty sure I have noticed all kinds of rock retaining walls on the narrow Sedona social trails failing even after only a short period of use and weather. If people are going to be forced to the edge because the bench is too narrow it's going to fail much sooner then a full bench. I don't see how this can be argued.
    Agreed 100% full bench is where its out for long term sustainability along with many other factors but to partial bench is like half assing it in my book. Extra work or not the right amount of work doesn;t replace something hastly done for some instant gratification.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    Agreed 100% full bench is where its out for long term sustainability along with many other factors but to partial bench is like half assing it in my book. Extra work or not the right amount of work doesn;t replace something hastly done for some instant gratification.
    cw:

    No one not even I can argue with your point that a full bench cut is better for sustainability. I was going to add in short term sustainability into the equation, but that would create a discussion that would take another couple hours to discuss.

    I personally believe that the routing of the trail is a bigger factor in the sustainability of a trail especially in the long term.

    Before we get to far into this discussion I think you would agree it takes about 25% less effort (brush and excavate) to initially build a partial bench trail, and if it was POSSIBLE to build it that way it would cost less money to do so. You probably don't care about the cost of the trail because it isn't coming directly out of your pocket, so who cares. I look at it differently and that is why I can identify with the Tea Baggers.

    I have asked rasingarizona to let me know where the problematic areas are of the five trails I mentioned previously, I also asked my 58 year old wife who rides those trails the same question, So far neither one of them has given me a list or idea where those problematic partial bench areas are. I also know none of those trails cost the FS one cent to build, and if they weren't initially built in a minimalistic way they wouldn't be there for users to enjoy for in one case the last fifteen years.

    I constantly refer to the Aerie trail as my example of a trail that was very well laid out. I don't know if you have ridden that trail yet, so it may be difficult for you to discuss all the current sustainability issues with me since you didn't build it or do you ride it regularly.

    As of August 26, 2011 the trail will have been completed for one year. It is 2.8 miles long and I have no clue how much money the FS spent in actual dollars to build the trail, and I doubt they even know. What I do know is that it was one of the most economical trails they have ever built in that type of terrain that has archeological issues.

    My point is we now in the WORST possible scenario have six brushed routes for the FS to evaluate to see if they can be improved to a multi-use trail status, and it has not cost them one penny to get to that point. Time will tell if I am just a nut case in my evaluation of those trails and ultimately they will need major re-routes and large sections of full benching to get them to the multi-use full bench status that you may deem necessary to survive the next XXXX years.

    So far I have walked and ridden every inch of those six trails with a FS hydrologist and during the evaluation process he was involved in he was showing very little concern about the benching. We did take some time and installed seven or more water diverters on all of those trail, but that was the extent of his concern. As far as what an archeologist and NEPAOLOGIST is going to think I have no clue what their evaluation will end up with or when they will be able to take the time from their extremely busy schedules to even get out to evaluate those projects. They may end up re-routing all six trails to the Village of Oak Creek, but I would hope one or two will survive their detailed scrutiny.

    What is interesting is that I keep rehashing my defense of these trails and others I have helped with the long drawn out approval process and to date there is only one that has been totally closed to the general public, but is being used by a very small group of dedicated users.

    I do believe that one day, that one trail will be approved, but it probably won't be in my lifetime, but it will happen. The LPS, Blue Dot, UPS, MPS, Hazard County and Green Dot trails are perfect examples of trails that just wouldn't be there if someone would not have taken the initiative to route them and clear the brush and rocks to hike or ride them. Full benching was not an important consideration in the initial building of those trails and guess what they are or will soon be ridden by thousands of riders each year.

    I don't know if the original route that Lewis and Clark took in their expedition is still there over two hundred years ago, but if it was well thought out it may be.

    After all of this pontificating on my part, I have a question, can anyone reading this forum tell me who initially routed the sacred South Mountain trail? And if it had never gotten originally routed to date and was just sitting there in it's primitive state, would the mountain biking community be able to meet with the landowner in 2011 and propose the trail as it currently exists or some other close alignment? Has any partial benching on that trail survived the use that trail gets, and since it was not routed by a profession organization is certainly is not going to last the test of time and should never have been brought to it's current state? Would your precious Waterfall still be included in a new 2011 alignment?

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by azjeff View Post
    Pump up your road bike tires and go for the ride, they won't turn you away. Meet some new people.

    VVCC does mountain bike stuff too you know, they're involved with developing a trail system near Cornville for one thing. Not the kind of trails you'd be caught dead on though.
    az:

    Thanks for that update on their trail project. I personally am not aware of any new trails they have developed since opening their doors whenever that was. Since Tuna said he was going to go to their ride and party tonight, I got curious and went into their website to see what they are all about.

    They have an admirable mission statement, but they have no accomplishment button that you can click on to see what they have actually accomplished. From their minutes I can see street sweeping is a big part of their budget and if they get future taxpayer funding they will be able to hire a full time administrator to see that their favorite bike routes are swept on a frequent basis. Hopefully Obama will get his way and increase the deficit limit so funding will be available, otherwise the Republicans might axe that funding to try and reduce the deficit.

    It looks like they haven't been totally prepared in their presentations to get bike lanes on roads they consider to be enjoyable ride venues, so hopefully that will improve so their club members will have a better chance to survive a ride.

    These are all worthy endeavors, but in these challenging financial times are these 501(3)c's going to be sustainable.

    John Stossel has a program on Fox News right now that goes into all this spending of taxpayers money to support different projects one of which was a bike helmet giveaway to fat cats and financially compromised individuals. They also did an evaluation of doing unnecessary full bench cutting on Sedona trails, and that it costs up to 4X's the amount of taxpayers dollars to do a full bench cut on a new trail, is this sustainable and always necessary.

    It just doesn't seem sustainable to me, but due to a low IQ and having bounced one check in the last 62 years what do I know. I still think I am living the American dream and that keeps me smiling on my bike rides.

    TD

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    I tried to become involved but the 23 year old kid from Florida that just graduated from college had everything figured out and didn't think the guy living around here for 9 years and working at Pink Jeep for almost 5 years could actually know what he was talking about as far as user conflict issues and trail lay out for the Broken Arrow area. So my first suggestion for this Tuna fella might be to actually listen to and respect the local folk who are very passionate about our forest and are willing to become very involved. We really don't like reaching out and then being treated like we don't have a clue. I don't know why it has to be so hard to have people work on trails and do the work that they claim costs thousands of dollars that we are willing to do for free.
    Last edited by raisingarizona; 07-16-2011 at 10:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I tried to become involved but the 23 year old kid from Florida that just graduated from college had everything figured out and didn't think the guy living around here for 9 years and working at Pink Jeep for almost 5 years could actually know what he was talking about as far as user conflict issues and trail lay out for the Broken Arrow area. So my first suggestion for this mackerel fella might be to actually listen to and respect the local folk who are very passionate about our forest and are willing to become very involved. We really don't like reaching out and then being treated like we don't have a clue. I don't know why it has to be so hard to have people work on trails and do the work that they claim costs thousands of dollars that we are willing to do for free.
    ra:

    Interesting post we will see what happens. Thanks for the heads-up. I was wondering how your Broken Arrow project was going.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    ra:

    Interesting post we will see what happens. Thanks for the heads-up. I was wondering how your Broken Arrow project was going.

    TD
    After I met with those guys I tried calling back many times leaving messages but I never heard back from them. They did do the re-route around the jeep trail but I was willing to do so much more or at least as much as we could. I would love to try and solve all of the problems with that trail and make something that really works but in the end they didn't seem to care I guess. Maybe the opportunity will come up in the future but I'm not holding my breathe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    After I met with those guys I tried calling back many times leaving messages but I never heard back from them. They did do the re-route around the jeep trail but I was willing to do so much more or at least as much as we could. I would love to try and solve all of the problems with that trail and make something that really works but in the end they didn't seem to care I guess. Maybe the opportunity will come up in the future but I'm not holding my breathe.
    ra:

    As you have seen I have offered to personally ride with Ranger Tuna and show him the over 140 trails I have a GPS data base of which I have used to develop a comprehensive map of the Sedona mountain biking trail system. Ranger Tuna lead me to believe he would ride with me today in the Secret Trails area, which is one of those areas that has many trails that a difficult for a non-local to locate, my email to him indicated
    I would show him ten or more trails in that area, but I wasn't interested in searching out every spur that he and the FS might want to mitigate in the future. I have always contended based on history that is a waste of time and taxpayer money.

    Anyway long story short, he never called, emailed, sent smoke signal or corresponded with friends he met at last nights VVCC meeting that he wanted to ride in Secret trails with me personally. At this point like you I have gotten his message.

    TD

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    Instead of riding with Tuna today in the Secret Trails area I went on a ride with the local crowd on the Last Frontier trail system. Yesterday I had gone out to the Secret Trails area to reorient myself to the vast trail system and I even went to Staples and had a color map printed to give to Tuna as a reference piece for the area.

    In retro spec, I realize the FS has a data base with 99% of all the trails in Sedona and they would just look at my work product as somewhat lame compared to their vast resources to provide relevant trail information to help Tuna get to know the Sedona Trail system.

    I understand last night Tuna may have teamed up with one of the very well respected VVCC Board of Directors members (who knows the Secret Trails like the back of his hand) and may have gone out to ride the area with him today.

    It will be interesting if they were able to ride: Second Coming, Crucifixion Wash, Grand Central, Roller Coaster, Lost and Found, Missing in Action, Power Station Plunge, Ant Hill, Centennial and the Sinkhole Connector. There are probably another ten or twenty washes, spurs, old jeep and power line trails that you could add into the mix, but aren't ridden that much so not sure they should be included into the list of trials that might ever be adopted by the FS.

    Hope they had fun out there today it is a special place and it will be a great addition to the whole Sedona mountain biking system of trails. Sounds like progress is being made at a rapid pace.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    It will be interesting if they were able to ride: Second Coming, Crucifixion Wash, Grand Central, Roller Coaster, Lost and Found, Missing in Action, Power Station Plunge, Ant Hill, Centennial and the Sinkhole Connector. There are probably another ten or twenty washes, spurs, old jeep and power line trails that you could add into the mix, but aren't ridden that much so not sure they should be included into the list of trials that might ever be adopted by the FS.

    Hope they had fun out there today it is a special place and it will be a great addition to the whole Sedona mountain biking system of trails. Sounds like progress is being made at a rapid pace.
    TD
    Power Stn Plunge to Centennial will be a fine addition

    In contrast, the main system trail in the area (Jordan) would be a fine improvement project for Justin to expend some of his rock work talents. Perhaps Tuna got to ride that bit of eroded fall line mess and will report back? I'd put that on par with Broken Arrow prior to Justin and crew's efforts this winter wrt to overall trail condition and an example of a poorly laid out system trail. To be fair though, I think most of it started out as social trail decades ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Power Stn Plunge to Centennial will be a fine addition

    In contrast, the main system trail in the area (Jordan) would be a fine improvement project for Justin to expend some of his rock work talents. Perhaps Tuna got to ride that bit of eroded fall line mess and will report back? I'd put that on par with Broken Arrow prior to Justin and crew's efforts this winter wrt to overall trail condition and an example of a poorly laid out system trail. To be fair though, I think most of it started out as social trail decades ago.
    Rocky:

    Once again you and I are on the same needle point. As Justin is aware, Ranger Jeff and I went out and investigated a number of trail sections of Jordan that could be re-routed or improved to provide mountain bikers a much improved user experience.

    Actually very recently I met with one of Sedona's highly respected trail routers and she had some kind of secret Intel that showed a routing that could totally avoid the section of trail that most mountain bike mortals are unable to climb at the now high point of Jordan. When and if that re-route were to take place it would be a wonderful addition to the trail.

    That being said the FS employees needed to rubber stamp the project are stretched to their limits on other higher priority projects and are not able to do the large documentation necessary by the US government to get the project rolling. Volunteer workers are standing by to help with the project whenever the approval process is completed.

    Maybe with the help of Tuna this whole kettle of fish can get sorted out and we can enjoy that section of Sedona goodness. I think it would really benefit the user experience of those mountain bikers who do a bike rental out of Fat Tire Bike, which is just down Jordan Road a short distance away.

    I can remember doing a ride on that section of trail with road rider gold medal winner Mario Kummer. It was his first mountain bike ride and even though he is a super strong rider that trail kicked his butt. I ride with Mario every year now and each time we meet we laugh about that day he was at the back of the pack. If Mario had a difficult time on that important connector trail, just think what the experience is like for other tourons.

    TD

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    I have to add that the Thunder Mountain trail is one of the worst trails I have ever had the displeasure to ride my bike on, it's a main connecter and system trail so I can't see why it should stay the way it is. Hopefully one day it gets the love it deserves as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I have to add that the Thunder Mountain trail is one of the worst trails I have ever had the displeasure to ride my bike on, it's a main connecter and system trail so I can't see why it should stay the way it is. Hopefully one day it gets the love it deserves as well.
    ra:

    I totally agree that trail sucks. Not sure about its history, but I do know the history behind the Forest Service Thunder Mountain Parking Lot. The Forest Service loves their trailheads, and when that trailhead was originally looked at it was in the middle of an archeological site: pottery shards, metate, arrowheads, etc.

    If that location had been a proposed trail segment it would have to be re-routed to get approval. But because it was the Forest Service who wanted the supersized parking lot there, which I have never seen close to being full, it was rubber stamped without a normal study done and wah la, we now have a beautiful large parking lot.

    It would be interesting if the current alignment of the actual Thunder Mountain trail could ever be improved to make it user friendly in those totally impossible sections. If the FS could get the original trailhead approved it only seems logical the short re-routes could get approved. Who knows maybe Justin is currently looking at those spots and maybe Ranger Tuna could put it on his high priority to do list of trails to ride.

    TD
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking to Ride with Tuna and Welcome Him to Sedona-metate.jpg  


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    You've got a nice metate collection doc.

    We used to ride Thunder Mtn by parking on Anadante Rd. in the late 80s and early 90s. Then a cloverleaf of sorts with Girdner and Two Fences. It was either that or Jim Thompson or Broken Arrow (rd to Chicken Pt) and L. Horse/Mystic. The original Mystic was a hoot. That was basically it for Sedona. Teacup, Jordan, and Soldier's Pass trails didn't exist then. We used to ride a higher trail to the sinkhole (Devil's Kitchen) from JT but it crossed the wilderness. The 11 way was there and we would do short little loops in the Secret Trails area.

    The JT parking lot isn't all that bad now is it? How else would you access the trail system in that area unless parking in front of someone's house? Little Elf is pretty small.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    You've got a nice metate collection doc.

    We used to ride Thunder Mtn by parking on Anadante Rd. in the late 80s and early 90s. Then a cloverleaf of sorts with Girdner and Two Fences. It was either that or Jim Thompson or Broken Arrow (rd to Chicken Pt) and L. Horse/Mystic. The original Mystic was a hoot. That was basically it for Sedona. Teacup, Jordan, and Soldier's Pass trails didn't exist then. We used to ride a higher trail to the sinkhole (Devil's Kitchen) from JT but it crossed the wilderness. The 11 way was there and we would do short little loops in the Secret Trails area.

    The JT parking lot isn't all that bad now is it? How else would you access the trail system in that area unless parking in front of someone's house? Little Elf is pretty small.
    The parking lot might be ok if the trail system was thought out as well also but in it's current state I have to say it kinda sucks. I have not ridden those trails for years now knowing better. I don't like the timed closing gates though, it seems the as though the wealthy real estate holders in that neighborhood have had a strong influence on our public access at that location. If they don't like riff raff like ourselves accessing trails on public land then maybe they should have thought twice about building their trophy homes next to public lands. Seems that something a little fishy has gone on in Sedona with agreements between real estate holders and our tax paid for Forrest Service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    The parking lot might be ok if the trail system was thought out as well also but in it's current state I have to say it kinda sucks. I have not ridden those trails for years now knowing better. I don't like the timed closing gates though, it seems the as though the wealthy real estate holders in that neighborhood have had a strong influence on our public access at that location. If they don't like riff raff like ourselves accessing trails on public land then maybe they should have thought twice about building their trophy homes next to public lands. Seems that something a little fishy has gone on in Sedona with agreements between real estate holders and our tax paid for Forrest Service.
    ra:

    I don't think the Thunder Mountain Trailhead has a timed gate. Originally the trailhead was going to be closer to Thunder Mountain Road, but the developer talked them into moving it back where it currently is.

    I don't know about any Thunder Mountain resident/mountain biker conflicts going on presently. The one main conflict going on right now outside of Thunder Mountain is the one at the Lower Chimney Rock trail and Dry Creek Road access point.

    It sure would be great if Ranger Tuna could find the magic new route between those two points. He could really sharpen his trail routing skills on that project.

    TD

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    Dear Ranger Tuna Woodhouse:


    I case you are not getting my personal emails I thought it best to forward you this email to your work email. Feel free to share my prior emails to you with Ranger Burns. She and I have worked on numerous projects together and she knows I am dedicated to improving the Sedona mountain biking experience.

    Just as a side note I met with one of Sedona's well known mountain bikers who has brought in numerous mountain bikers from all over the world to ride in Sedona. One of the most well known foreign riders is Thomas Frischknecht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Frischknecht), who has brought numerous riders from all around the world to ride here. They come to ride here because of the great trails we have to ride here and that they have a friend to show them around. If they came here on their own their riding experience would not have as good as what it was with their friend.

    I am assuming one of your jobs is to figure out how to give all mountain biking tourist users a great Sedona mountain biking experience, but I could be wrong and that if you consider a full trailhead parking lot to be a failure, we might not have the same goals.

    In discussing my trying to meet up with you with my fellow mountain biking tour guide friend, we discussed the Sedona mountain biking user experience from a tourists POV who was paying him to guide them around. He indicated a vast number of those mountain biking tourists asked him "why don't the signs indicate how far it is to the next junction." I have been riding here for over twelve years and if you can come up with a good solution to that issue you will be a hero. Ranger Burns and I did some work on the Areie trail to address that situation, but maybe you can come up with something better. Justin thinks carsonites don't last so that could be a long term problem.

    Good Luck,

    Traildoc

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Dear Ranger Tuna Woodhouse:


    I case you are not getting my personal emails I thought it best to forward you this email to your work email. Feel free to share my prior emails to you with Ranger Burns. She and I have worked on numerous projects together and she knows I am dedicated to improving the Sedona mountain biking experience.

    Just as a side note I met with one of Sedona's well known mountain bikers who has brought in numerous mountain bikers from all over the world to ride in Sedona. One of the most well known foreign riders is Thomas Frischknecht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Frischknecht), who has brought numerous riders from all around the world to ride here. They come to ride here because of the great trails we have to ride here and that they have a friend to show them around. If they came here on their own their riding experience would not have as good as what it was with their friend.

    I am assuming one of your jobs is to figure out how to give all mountain biking tourist users a great Sedona mountain biking experience, but I could be wrong and that if you consider a full trailhead parking lot to be a failure, we might not have the same goals.

    In discussing my trying to meet up with you with my fellow mountain biking tour guide friend, we discussed the Sedona mountain biking user experience from a tourists POV who was paying him to guide them around. He indicated a vast number of those mountain biking tourists asked him "why don't the signs indicate how far it is to the next junction." I have been riding here for over twelve years and if you can come up with a good solution to that issue you will be a hero. Ranger Burns and I did some work on the Areie trail to address that situation, but maybe you can come up with something better. Justin thinks carsonites don't last so that could be a long term problem.

    Good Luck,

    Traildoc
    If I run into Tuna, I'll be sure he gets this email.

    (Gosh, I'm so glad MTBR can be used as a vehicle to get two people together for a common goal.)
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    these threads are so weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Skinny:

    You haven't chimed in yet. What is your insightful analysis at this point? At this point we have learned Tuna wants to work on the following:

    Find new creative ways to improve the trail system.
    Help organize and educate volunteers.
    Do public outreach and orientation with trail users.

    I personally am wondering what new creative ways and improving the trail system means. Not sure if the MTBR viewers are for traildoc type improvements, so hopefully Tuna has something different in mind

    Organize and educate volunteers sounds good. Specifics would help, so we could start the process earlier rather than later. The internet is a great way get information out quickly.

    Public outreach and orientation with trail users sounds positive, but a little too vague for me to know what that might be about. Maybe they are going to show videos of how the mountain bikers and FS have worked together to build trails in other areas. That would be nice.

    Looking forward to your analysis.

    TD
    Oh, sorry, I was in the midwest trying to take advantage of the world class riding experience of inner-city Chicago. I will tell you, the mountain biking in the Windy City sucks!!!!!!

    To be completely blunt with you, I'm been too preoccupied with my own personal riding schedule to really pay much attention to what's going on up north. I admit, I'm a bit jealous that the tourons are getting to experience the World Class Trails in Sedona, and am glad the FS has somebody dedicated to being of assistance to you. I appreciate that education is part of that committment.

    Good luck!!!!!!!
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    these threads are so weird.
    mber

    c:

    Remember you have three options:

    1. Ignore all traildoc posts, but remember I am trying to keep you into the loop as to how I am trying to improve the mountain biker user experience in Sedona. Remember when our President was on the campaign trail and spoke about transparency, what a bunch of BS that was and still is. I am trying to be different.

    2. Read the posts and accept that some (but not all) may be weird to you. If you need clarification on anything let me know.

    3. You can ask one of your MTBR buddies to read the post, and let you know if it's worth reading.

    Hope that isn't too weird. Remember this is the internet not a sworn deposition.

    TD

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation: woahey's Avatar
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    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    ra:

    I don't think the Thunder Mountain Trailhead has a timed gate.
    TD
    No, the only trailhead with a timed gate is Solder Pass. It's open from 8-6 daily, and if you are inside the gate after 6 it will still let you out.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

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