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    Last RTCA Meeting Sept 26- One Dollar Off Per Gallon of Motor Fuel

    As some of you might know the last Trails Planning meeting for the Red Rock Ranger District (Sedona) will be on Sept 26 at the Hilton Hotel in the Village of Oak Creek. Some of the local mountain bike community has been going to monthly Thursday meetings since Oct. 2012.

    At the meetings there have been a lot of informative discussions about resource preservation and potential new system trail opportunities. If you have attended the meetings you have a lot better understanding what it takes to get new trails adopted and new trails built from scratch.

    Recently an online survey was sent out on Survey Monkey and many of the MTBR viewers, RTCA meeting attendees, local citizens, Arizona IMBA members, VVCC club members, SMBC club members, Flagstaff Bike Club members and SoCal Trail Riders completed the survey. We have been told there were over 700 responses to the survey by people from the three (mountain bikers, equestrians and hikers) major user groups.

    At the next meeting we will find out what conclusions have been reached by the twelve months Trials Planning Process. The mountain bike community has been very represented at each monthly meeting and hopefully our input will translate to the adoption of existing user created trails that many mountain bikers have enjoyed riding for years, along with new trail concepts that have been discussed and drawn on meeting maps.

    The FS has indicated that their budgets have been cut and that there will need to be more volunteer help, private funding and local business contributions to make things happen in the future. This Coconino trails planning process will not be occurring again for at least ten years, so it sure would be nice if you have any interest in the process that you try and attend the last meeting to show the FS service which user group is willing to contribute to the volunteer or private funding in the future.

    As an incentive to get mountain bikers to come to the meeting there will be ten coupons given out to get one dollar per gallon off of fuel (up to 35 gallons) for your vehicle to be used at the local Circle K in VOC the night of the meeting, hope to see you there.

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    Has anyone seen this video ( https://vimeo.com/73341409 ) I first rode with this guy when he was twelve years old. Now he is one of the best trail builders in the country and not a bad rider either. He has his tools stashed on the trail and works when he wants while on a ride. Good job Henry, thanks for all your hard work and making some awesome trails.

    Maybe out of the trails planning process we can make some great new trails happen in the not so distant future. For me personally this is what the mountain biking scene is all about.

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    Renegade, I don't need a bribe to attend the meeting but I'll be out of town anyway. But I have gone to two RTCA meetings as well as the emergency closure meeting and it's been a interesting process. Hopefully, the three major trails that are now closed will be re-instated and considered for adoption as well as the ideas for new trails. Good luck with it and try and keep angry outbursts like those from Bikedoc to a minimum. That sort of behavior is not productive, especially when the district ranger's supervisor is also in the room.

    I personally will kick in money to a trail fund but it is my understanding that the FS can not funnel contributions to a specific trail or project and it goes into a general fund. I am curious, however, where the $50 I donated two weeks ago using the link on the SMBC website went? It says Sedona Trail Stewardship Fund. Since you are a board member of SMBC you could tell me?
    "The world is worse when you are behind a keyboard. The world is best when you are behind handlebars." M77Ranger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Renegade, I don't need a bribe to attend the meeting but I'll be out of town anyway. But I have gone to two RTCA meetings as well as the emergency closure meeting and it's been a interesting procehttp://forums.mtbr.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10678266ss. Hopefully, the three major trails that are now closed will be re-instated and considered for adoption as well as the ideas for new trails. Good luck with it and try and keep angry outbursts like those from Bikedoc to a minimum. That sort of behavior is not productive, especially when the district ranger's supervisor is also in the room.

    I personally will kick in money to a trail fund but it is my understanding that the FS can not funnel contributions to a specific trail or project and it goes into a general fund. I am curious, however, where the $50 I donated two weeks ago using the link on the SMBC website went? It says Sedona Trail Stewardship Fund. Since you are a board member of SMBC you could tell me?
    I have trying to get the board to send out an email to the SMBC membership similar to my original MTBR post and no one is responding. Many people believe that the FS has already decided how they are going to deal with the trails planning process, so why go to any meetings? A number of MTBR posters have taken that position and like you have only come to several meetings.

    My position is that if you don't participate in the process you will never know if you personally could have made any significant changes. Several meeting attendees, who are afraid to present a counter position at the meetings have expressed thanks to those members, that don't just sit back and not question certain half truths that have been presented at the meetings.

    If I were you I would ask for your money back.

    I was wondering if the offer to give every mountain bike a $1,000 if they showed up would work, what do you think? How would you encourage people to come to the last meeting, or do you think the die has been cast and it isn't important for anyone to show up at this point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    I have trying to get the board to send out an email to the SMBC membership similar to my original MTBR post and no one is responding. Many people believe that the FS has already decided how they are going to deal with the trails planning process, so why go to any meetings? A number of MTBR posters have taken that position and like you have only come to several meetings.

    My position is that if you don't participate in the process you will never know if you personally could have made any significant changes. Several meeting attendees, who are afraid to present a counter position at the meetings have expressed thanks to those members, that don't just sit back and not question certain half truths that have been presented at the meetings.

    If I were you I would ask for your money back.

    I was wondering if the offer to give every mountain bike a $1,000 if they showed up would work, what do you think? How would you encourage people to come to the last meeting, or do you think the die has been cast and it isn't important for anyone to show up at this point?
    You didn't answer my question. You are more than a board member of SMBC and in fact the duly elected president, no? Perhaps you could either refund the money to my paypal account or transfer it to VVVC where it presumably will do the most good. Do you or do you not represent an advocacy group working closely with the FS.

    I laud the attempt to round up the Calvary and have an overwhelming show of support at the next RTCA meeting but the bottom line is the USFS doesn't work well with individuals and prefers to work with organizations. I wish I had made all the meetings to participate in the process but couldn't do so. I'm stoked that you are there to represent the interests of the mtn bike community.

    My suggestion is rather than pimping people with gas coupons to show up it's time for folks like yourself to lead rather than shout. Organize, rebuild SMBC from the ashes of the IMBA debacle, and begin a marketing fund-raising campaign. Show the FS which user-group is willing to contribute the most time and effort (and dollars) to getting new trails built.
    "The world is worse when you are behind a keyboard. The world is best when you are behind handlebars." M77Ranger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    You didn't answer my question. You are more than a board member of SMBC and in fact the duly elected president, no? Perhaps you could either refund the money to my paypal account or transfer it to VVVC where it presumably will do the most good. Do you or do you not represent an advocacy group working closely with the FS.

    I laud the attempt to round up the Calvary and have an overwhelming show of support at the next RTCA meeting but the bottom line is the USFS doesn't work well with individuals and prefers to work with organizations. I wish I had made all the meetings to participate in the process but couldn't do so. I'm stoked that you are there to represent the interests of the mtn bike community.

    My suggestion is rather than pimping people with gas coupons to show up it's time for folks like yourself to lead rather than shout. Organize, rebuild SMBC from the ashes of the IMBA debacle, and begin a marketing fund-raising campaign. Show the FS which user-group is willing to contribute the most time and effort (and dollars) to getting new trails built.
    I totally agree with your approach, but how do we get a good showing for that approach at the upcoming meeting? The meeting is going to be in eleven days, so what do you suggest? Do you want me to tell Forest that you will be signing up for the Adopt-a-Trail program, if so what trail do you want to adopt.
    you don't have to be at the meeting to show good intentions.

    If anyone else reading this post can't come to the meeting but wants to be part of the Adopt-a-Trail program let me know and we will get you on the list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    I totally agree with your approach, but how do we get a good showing for that approach at the upcoming meeting? The meeting is going to be in eleven days, so what do you suggest? Do you want me to tell Forest that you will be signing up for the Adopt-a-Trail program, if so what trail do you want to adopt.
    you don't have to be at the meeting to show good intentions. If anyone else reading this post can't come to the meeting but wants to be part of the Adopt-a-Trail program let me know and we will get you on the list.
    Ah, the old answer a question with a question technique. To answer your first question, you won't get a good showing by posting on mtbr. Folks that care from Flagstaff like Chalkpaw and Anthony from Absolute Bikes will probably show up. I highly doubt anyone from Phoenix will come do you? They're sick of Sedrama.

    With regard to your second question, no I won't be signing up for the adopt-a-trail program. This is classic passive-aggressive trail-doc style baiting. I would answer by saying that I would rather give money to an advocacy group to fight for the greater good in Sedona and when you come to my neck of the woods you might get to enjoy the fruits of my labors.

    Now about that Sedona Trail Stewardship Fund. What's that all about? How are you proposing to drum up money to support the trails the mtn bike community wants? It seems pretty obvious the RR District is not going to pay for it. They'll have a hard enough time paying for the NEPA studies.
    "The world is worse when you are behind a keyboard. The world is best when you are behind handlebars." M77Ranger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Ah, the old answer a question with a question technique. To answer your first question, you won't get a good showing by posting on mtbr. Folks that care from Flagstaff like Chalkpaw and Anthony from Absolute Bikes will probably show up. I highly doubt anyone from Phoenix will come do you? They're sick of Sedrama.

    With regard to your second question, no I won't be signing up for the adopt-a-trail program. This is classic passive-aggressive trail-doc style baiting. I would answer by saying that I would rather give money to an advocacy group to fight for the greater good in Sedona and when you come to my neck of the woods you might get to enjoy the fruits of my labors.

    Now about that Sedona Trail Stewardship Fund. What's that all about? How are you proposing to drum up money to support the trails the mtn bike community wants? It seems pretty obvious the RR District is not going to pay for it. They'll have a hard enough time paying for the NEPA studies.
    Once again you insightful summary is right on.

    Even though the requirements of the Adopt-a-Trail program is that the adoptee rides the trail he or she adopts four times a year and reports back to the FS the condition of the trail very few have accepted that little bit of volunteer effort.

    When those people who have been playing ball with the FS have their dreams come through they will be able to show the system works. Right now I think we are in a wait and see mode. When a new flow or DH trail has been built give us an update.

    Right today at this very minute conditions are prime for trail maintenance and trail building that I no for sure.

    Like I said I would ask for your money back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    Once again you insightful summary is right on.

    Even though the requirements of the Adopt-a-Trail program is that the adoptee rides the trail he or she adopts four times a year and reports back to the FS the condition of the trail very few have accepted that little bit of volunteer effort.

    When those people who have been playing ball with the FS have their dreams come through they will be able to show the system works. Right now I think we are in a wait and see mode. When a new flow or DH trail has been built give us an update.

    Right today at this very minute conditions are prime for trail maintenance and trail building that I no for sure.

    Like I said I would ask for your money back.
    Conditions might be prime but that's not how the FS works. But there was an organized trail day on Huckabee earlier this month, no?

    As for trail adoption tell me what ones remain? I believe you adopted Anaconda? CW has a friend, HO was adopted by VVVC, HiLine will always be Phil, and Slim Shady has the bike-n-bean crew. Munds Wagon has an adoptee and Friends of the Forest were out working on it when I rode it last. The OTE crew adopted the Secret Trails area but apparently they don't do much. I guess that is the very few and Sedona is running out of Friends. Of course there are chumps like me that adopt nothing but I don't live in Sedona either.

    What on earth is your point? Play ball with the FS and your dreams won't come true? How about YOU (Sedona Mountain Bike Club Board Member) give us the update when a new flow or DH trail has been built. What was your idea for one anyway. Where would you put a new trail in Sedona

    And you and SMBC can keep the $50. You apparently don't have an inkling of what the Sedona Trail Stewardship Fund is but I'm sure it will go to a good cause. Maybe pizza and beer after the next Johnny's garage ride. I'm done with your juvenile banter. Good luck and I hope your dreams come true!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Conditions might be prime but that's not how the FS works. But there was an organized trail day on Huckabee earlier this month, no?

    As for trail adoption tell me what ones remain? I believe you adopted Anaconda? CW has a friend, HO was adopted by VVVC, HiLine will always be Phil, and Slim Shady has the bike-n-bean crew. Munds Wagon has an adoptee and Friends of the Forest were out working on it when I rode it last. The OTE crew adopted the Secret Trails area but apparently they don't do much. I guess that is the very few and Sedona is running out of Friends. Of course there are chumps like me that adopt nothing but I don't live in Sedona either.

    What on earth is your point? Play ball with the FS and your dreams won't come true? How about YOU (Sedona Mountain Bike Club Board Member) give us the update when a new flow or DH trail has been built. What was your idea for one anyway. Where would you put a new trail in Sedona

    And you and SMBC can keep the $50. You apparently don't have an inkling of what the Sedona Trail Stewardship Fund is but I'm sure it will go to a good cause. Maybe pizza and beer after the next Johnny's garage ride. I'm done with your juvenile banter. Good luck and I hope your dreams come true!
    At this point I can't say exactly which trails remain for adoption because the FS does not provide a list that I am aware of. There are several people who have called to adopt trails and the last I heard they have not been called back. One of those individuals was interested in adopting Snake. The Chuck Wagon trail was going to be adopted by a 70 year old mountain biker by the name of Roger who is also part of the IMBA Sedona Mountain Bike Patrol.

    The Aerie trail hasn't been adopted yet, and Mescal has been adopted by Traildoc's 60 year lod wife Janet. I think a great trail to adopt by an out of towner person would be To Mescal/To Long Canyon aka: Gunsmoke. That trail is ridden pretty regularly by out of towners and riding it four times a year would be pretty easy.

    I don't know if Cockscomb, Dawa or OK have been adopted. OK would also be an easy trail to adopt. Girdner and AZ Cypress may still be open, but they have lots of issues so I wouldn't want to adopt those if I was looking for as little work to do as possible.

    Some friends who live near Bandit are thinking of adopting that trail so it hopefully will be adopted in the next month or so. As for Airport I am not sure if anyone has adopted it.

    At the last meeting a hiking ally by the name of Hiede has told me he recently adopted Mystic. I thought he said he adopted Chapel trail and I thought to myself way to go dude. He corrected me when I said wow dude Chapel trail. So maybe Chapel has been adopted by someone else, but that trail has ongoing maintenance issues so it would entail more maintenance than a trail like Snake which has recently been re-routed by a local mountain biker and held up well in the recent rainy period.

    My understanding about the Soldiers Wash trails is that there will be a volunteer workday this Sept 28 which will entail brushing and dirt work to increase trail sustainability. It will be interesting what gets accomplished and if your interested in helping out on that event volunteers will meet up at the Jim Thompson trailhead near the Jordan trail.

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    Rockman:

    After my last post I went over to my neighbors house and talked about today's ride and trying to recruit mountain bikers to adopt some of the popular mountain biking trails to be able to show the FS that as a group we mountain bikers are able to maintain the trails we love to ride.

    After ten minutes or so another mountain biker (Andy) showed up who had just finished riding the Hogs. On his ride he fell into a cactus and was still pulling out those little needles. Anyway I thought this guy seems to be a nice guy so I asked him if he would be intereded in adopting the To Mescal/To Long Canyon trail. When he asked me how much work it would entail I told him he just has to reoort to the FS four times a year what the condition of the trail is. He said are you sure, and I told him that's what I have been told and what my wife has been told.

    So as a consequence he says for me to contact Forest and see when the next training secession is. If you have a better way to get recruits, please let me know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    Rockman:

    After my last post I went over to my neighbors house and talked about today's ride and trying to recruit mountain bikers to adopt some of the popular mountain biking trails to be able to show the FS that as a group we mountain bikers are able to maintain the trails we love to ride.

    After ten minutes or so another mountain biker (Andy) showed up who had just finished riding the Hogs. On his ride he fell into a cactus and was still pulling out those little needles. Anyway I thought this guy seems to be a nice guy so I asked him if he would be intereded in adopting the To Mescal/To Long Canyon trail. When he asked me how much work it would entail I told him he just has to reoort to the FS four times a year what the condition of the trail is. He said are you sure, and I told him that's what I have been told and what my wife has been told.

    So as a consequence he says for me to contact Forest and see when the next training secession is. If you have a better way to get recruits, please let me know.
    Here ya go:

    INTERESTED IN ADOPTING A TRAIL?

    Contact:
    Forrest Saville
    Forestry Technician (Trails)
    Coconino National Forest
    Red Rock Ranger District
    8375 State Route 179
    Sedona, AZ 86351
    (928) 203-7509
    sfsaville@fs.fed.us

    And thanks for the invite to participate in Public Lands Day. To date, I have only touched tread in Sedona when I have been with Traildoc. Go ahead and ask him. Or, ask yourself. In which case, you won't be there either but I'll help you get the word out.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Last RTCA Meeting Sept 26- One Dollar Off Per Gallon of Motor Fuel-public-lands-day.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Here ya go:

    INTERESTED IN ADOPTING A TRAIL?

    Contact:
    Forrest Saville
    Forestry Technician (Trails)
    Coconino National Forest
    Red Rock Ranger District
    8375 State Route 179
    Sedona, AZ 86351
    (928) 203-7509
    sfsaville@fs.fed.us

    And thanks for the invite to participate in Public Lands Day. To date, I have only touched tread in Sedona when I have been with Traildoc. Go ahead and ask him. Or, ask yourself. In which case, you won't be there either but I'll help you get the word out.
    Rockman:

    Thanks for your post. Hopefully it will get some recruits for the Soldiers Wash volunteer day. All we can do is ask, we will see if the dream we talked about will come true. Remember to tell the real story when the time comes.

    If you get a chance check out the OTE shop, during the rainy period they did a whole new makeover of their shop. Matt did a really cool job on the displays and they have a cool new way to display their rental fleet.

    I saw that brochure posted on their front door so hopefully it will help get extra recruits.
    Last edited by RenegadeMtnBiker; 09-16-2013 at 12:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMtnBiker View Post
    Has anyone seen this video ( https://vimeo.com/73341409 ) I first rode with this guy when he was twelve years old. Now he is one of the best trail builders in the country and not a bad rider either. He has his tools stashed on the trail and works when he wants while on a ride. Good job Henry, thanks for all your hard work and making some awesome trails.

    Maybe out of the trails planning process we can make some great new trails happen in the not so distant future. For me personally this is what the mountain biking scene is all about.
    That video speaks a true quality for a few people who do the work that the rest of the riding world enjoys. For Sedona, the work of Phil, Lars, John, Janet, Doug, Rama, Dean, Laura, Scott, Jimmy, Steve, Dave, BJ, Chris, & several more great folks who I've forgotten to mention here are all trying to get to the point where Henry is today. Henry is one lucky dude. Hopefully the USFS will realize that these people I've mentioned are the ones who show up and get things done. With a plan in place that allows the mtb world to develop in a positive way, we all can be kings of the trail.
    There is a big difference between ripping and skidding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chalkpaw View Post
    With a plan in place that allows the mtb world to develop in a positive way, we all can be kings of the trail.
    Is the RTCA process the way to develop that plan? I get the impression from the locals, at least the anti-establishment ones, that the FS is just paying lip service to the community. What is clear is that the FS has regained control of their backyard so if you want to build trails it's going to be by their rules. The renegade days are over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Is the RTCA process the way to develop that plan? I get the impression from the locals, at least the anti-establishment ones, that the FS is just paying lip service to the community. What is clear is that the FS has regained control of their backyard so if you want to build trails it's going to be by their rules. The renegade days are over.
    You are correct about the people who would like more transparency they are highly skeptical based on what they claim is past history. That being said there is nothing wrong with being hopeful.

    This next RTCA meeting could be very revealing about where the FS says they will be going in the future based on user input at the prior meetings. We have been trying to get the results of the Survey Monkey survey from the meeting facilitator so that we can better prepare ourselves for the final discussion at the last meeting, to date no survey results have been forth coming. Those survey results will be very telling as to who the major participants have been in the trails planning process and what their hopes are for the future.

    We already had a vote with the regular meeting attendees and know what those results are, now we will get an idea what those users who didn't attend the meetings want to see take place.

    To be totally transparent at the meeting before the survey went online one of the attendees told the facilitator that every effort was going to be made by the mountain bike community to let their fellow users know about the survey and to ASK THEM to please complete the survey to get the viewpoint of like minded individuals.

    The facilitator was OK with that and didn't say that was unfair to the rest of the user groups since everyone was being told at the meeting to basically get the word out to their respective user group. When the facilitator gave preliminary results of the recent online survey which closed August 24 2013, I did not get the impression she was happy with the results. When she gives the final report at the next meeting I am hoping that the results will be given in a factual manner with no personal bias as to why and how the results could have been different.

    Obviously whether new trails are developed in the future or current popular non-system trails are adopted will be what the mountain biking community uses as a yardstick to measure the results of the trails planning process.

    I don't know if you listened to the presidents speech today, but the majority of his hopes and dreams were based on investing (raising taxes) to reach those hopes and dreams. His speech was a masterpiece as usual, and one sentence addressed personal responsibility and having to work hard as part of the process.

    Since I believe the success of the trails planning process will be mainly due to financial resources (mainly private since the FS can't raise taxes or levy fees) or volunteer effort (working hard) it will be interesting how the final report is written.

    Guys like Henry work for a non-profit that has shown the FS that they can create a vast trail system with minor involvement on the land managers part and having them to be involved with the construction and maintenance of the trails. The Downieville and Moab locations have allowed that process to work, if you have a lot of dedicated individuals leading that process it can work, unfortunately very few leaders have the time to dedicate the effort for that kind of process to be successful. So you need something like the Adopt-a-Trail and Friends of the Forest to do the maintenance part, if you can't raise enough funding privately.

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    Interesting email was sent out to the RTCA attendees this afternoon. Here is what the agenda will be about at the final meeting:

    Special presentation/discussion with Trail Mix representative Scott Escott. He will explain how all trail users cooperate for mutual gain for trails around Moab Utah hikers, bikers and equestrians potential model for us.

    Report out from Cate Bradley on the preliminary trail survey results.

    Update on trail decisions and coming activities; trail program for 2014.

    Discussion on who is willing to help to make progress on our trail priorities.



    Since the representative from Trail Mix, Scott from Moab will be attending, I believe this final meeting could be interesting indeed. If you are curious (raisingarizona) in how Moab got the new Captain Ahab trail ( https://vimeo.com/63329681 ) built or how they are in the process of building 40 miles of new trail. This meeting could give insights as to how that can be accomplished for hard dollar construction costs of $1 per foot and another $1 per foot of volunteer help.

    Maybe Scott will take me up on the $1 per gallon savings in fueling up his vehicle, that leaves nine other people.

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    OK the notes to the August RTCA meeting have been posted on the RRRD website. If you were at the August meeting there seems to be a difference in what was communicated at the meeting and what the notes state. The discrepancies were mainly about the percentages of the Survey Monkey survey about the want for new trails and the concern about resource protection being exactly 50/50. At the meeting it seemed liked a higher percentage was given the want for new trails.

    The meeting notes indicate there was a "blast" of individuals taking the survey that were IMBA members, As Patrick Kell stated the survey was sent to AZ IMBA members who he believed would be interested and more familiar with the Sedona trails planning process.

    My hope is that the raw raw data to the survey will be available for everyone to review if they are interested in the actual results. If not to everyone than at least to the committee members who diligently worked putting the survey together.

    There is a section of the meeting notes that refers to what the FS is thinking There are eight bullet points that have been listed. One of them kind of addresses the current trail closure to only mountain bikers. Rather than calling it a trail closure to mountain bikers that many consider to be discriminatory it is referred to as an "off trail travel prohibition" which will continue where needed.

    My big question to the land managers is now that it has been established that the meeting attendees and the people who filled out the Survey Monkey survey want new trails are they going to determine if those closed trails are poorly built as compared to existing system trails or trails being considered for adoption like Canyon of Fools.

    I rode Canyon of Fools today and it needs MAJOR MAINTENANCE. In the old days the users who created Canyon of Fools would go in an maintain the trail. This trail has evolved over the years to have more natural wall rides and has been really fun to ride if you are into that sort of thing. But now the people who use to maintain it are too afraid to work on it because of what has happened to the non-system trail maintenance group.

    Now the land manager will be very reluctant to go through the adoption of that kind of trail without some guarantee the individuals who want it adopted will also be willing to to maintain it forever due to it's highly erodible nature during heavy extended rainy periods.

    Hope to see you at the meeting.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Last RTCA Meeting Sept 26- One Dollar Off Per Gallon of Motor Fuel-august-notes.jpg  


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