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  1. #1
    slower than you
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    I'll tell you what you did Caligula...

    "I got greedy. Flew too close to the sun on wings of pastrami."

    Coconino National Forest - News & Events

    "The Red Rock Ranger District of the Coconino National Forest has implemented new rules for mountain bikers in specific areas near Sedona in order to protect land and resources.

    The new rules restrict mountain bikers from leaving official National Forest system trails and prohibit bikes from cross-country travel in several specific areas."



    "Yeah. That's what ya did."
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails I'll tell you what you did Caligula...-capture.jpg  

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  2. #2
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    Reputation: Eazy_E's Avatar
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    My initial reaction is we got screwed.

    Correct?

  3. #3
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    "unplanned trails have accelerated erosion and resulted in damage to fragile soil, archaeological and watershed resources near Oak Creek"
    However, we encourage a ‘stay-on-trail’ ethic for all users in all areas, and over the past several years we’ve noticed an increase in off-trail damage due to mountain biking. This is why these restrictions are focused on keeping bikes on trails in the most sensitive areas. We need this use to be environmentally sustainable
    Using these excuses as the basis for the bike ban is a complete farse. If errosion and damage is truly the issue then everyone should be banned, hikers and equestrians included. You are joking yourself if you feel that this isn't discrimination against, and singling out, of mountain bikers.

    I would be more comfortable with this if they were more forthright in their reasons, that the ban was put in place to punish the mountain bike community for building unauthorized trails.

    To those that think this is a regional issue, it isn't. This will have lasting effects across the country, and is solidifying a precident for all land managers to follow. It is already happening here in NY. As part of a proposed Unit Managment Plan in one of our state forests this wording is being added "Limit mountain bike use to the multiple use trail network, public roads and parking lots". Under the guise that MTB'r built illegal trails, when in fact they have exsisted for years and continue to be used by all user groups. This essentially kicks MTB'rs off of much of the single track in the area that have exsisting for years, and restricts them to wide, bulldozed double track paths and old logging roads.

    IMO, this type of ban is an easy way out and is a way for government agencies to not address the real issue. That they have historically dismissed mountain bikers and ignored the public demand. Their inaction in the past has significantly contributed to the situation that we all face today.

  4. #4
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    Thanks to VVCC and IMBA for at least trying to help and narrowing some of the closure areas and anyone else that has been to the meetings and tried to have a positive impact in a rational manner. The rules for us are changing as the states population grows and more people are discovering the joys of MTB. We cannot stop this, but can play within the rules and use the system which we are pretty powerless to change to keep existing sustainable trail open and encourage the creation of more. This kinda sucks but sounds and looks like it could have way worse.
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  5. #5
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    My only question is how are they going to close off all the unsanctioned trails or mark them?

    I dunno if you guys know it or not, but in the Coconino Forest proper the FS changed the rules about motorized vehicle travel. Used to be, a road was open unless marked closed, but now, they're closed unless marked open. It's your responsibility to get the map and know if the road you're on is good or not. I've heard of a couple of people getting caught on on roads that used to be open and the FS guys are less than empathetic about it.

    I just don't want to see guys getting fined or ticketed for riding trails they used to ride when the FS just issues a decree and doesn't do anything to block off or actually close the offending trails.

  6. #6
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    Here's to advertising /sarcasm

  7. #7
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Time for Sedona critical mass rides on highway 89 and in the FS parking lot/roads too. Have fun with it and make them miserable. I also recommend Bell Rock pathway and any jeep trails.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  8. #8
    Meatbomb
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    When they say -"restrict mountain bikers from leaving official National Forest system trails and prohibit bikes from cross-country travel in several specific areas."

    Are they really saying illegal user built trails ? or is there really a problem with people riding off trail?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    When they say -"restrict mountain bikers from leaving official National Forest system trails and prohibit bikes from cross-country travel in several specific areas."

    Are they really saying illegal user built trails ? or is there really a problem with people riding off trail?
    No, there is not a problem with bikers riding off trail. That's just the wording they're using for bikers only being allowed on official system trails. Non-system trails (ie., user built, social trails, etc) are now the domain of hikers and equestrians.

    There is specific language to the effect of restricting bikers on slickrock areas. But let's face it, riding willy nilly off into the forest or desert isn't really that much fun and is indeed destructive to the resource. Bikers stick to trails.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    When they say -"restrict mountain bikers from leaving official National Forest system trails and prohibit bikes from cross-country travel in several specific areas."

    Are they really saying illegal user built trails ? or is there really a problem with people riding off trail?
    There are trails like Broken Arrow that go through patches of slickrock with cairns on either side. I've been known to go "off trail" and goof off on the slickrock before. I guess that's "illegal cross country travel" now.

  11. #11
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    Some woman started a huge fire a while back because she thought her life was in danger, after being stranded very close to a major road. Didn't have to pay.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  12. #12
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Time for Sedona critical mass rides on highway 89 and in the FS parking lot/roads too. Have fun with it and make them miserable. I also recommend Bell Rock pathway and any jeep trails.
    ^This.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    .. That's just the wording they're using for bikers only being allowed on official system trails. Non-system trails (ie., user built, social trails, etc) are now the domain of hikers and equestrians.

    There is specific language to the effect of restricting bikers on slickrock areas. But let's face it, riding willy nilly off into the forest or desert isn't really that much fun and is indeed destructive to the resource. Bikers stick to trails.
    So this where I am really torn up on this Sedona deal. On the one hand riders are pissed because they are stuck on "system trails", but on the other hand you are saying riding willy nilly is not good and stick to the trail. This seems like a contradiction.

    Now understand the reason for this contradiction is due to presence of these things call "user trails". These are things that on the ground look like trails, but are not official. The problem is that if you are looking to "preserve nature" these non-official trails look like scars on the landscape and should not be there. Yes offical trails can be scars too, but being offical is a big difference.

    What I take this to mean is that the Mtn bike community is being penalized for CREATING a number of not official trails. Most mtn bikers don't create trails and will stick to them, but a few have gone created trails that never existed. The problem now is that many of these trails are around the FS fears that more trails will be created and this restruction is needed. I am not saying they are right, but it seem like their approach.

    My take is this. I have no issues with keeping bikes on designated trails. It is easy for bikes to stick to existing tracks and not cut new ones. I also think most here would stand by the last sentence. I think the issue is which trails are official and which ones are not.

    Maybe the solution to this issue is not to fight this ban, but to work to try to get more "social" trials accepted. Then we get to ride the trails legally and the FS gets to keep their hardline on new trail development. Plus when these trails get accepted it will make for a better experience due to mapping and signage. One thing I hate is maze of trails the go all over the place and go who knows where. Exploring is fine, but a lot of people like to have an idea where they are going and for how long.
    Joe
    2003 KHS Alite 4000 26" Hardtail - XC, All mountain, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    So this where I am really torn up on this Sedona deal. On the one hand riders are pissed because they are stuck on "system trails", but on the other hand you are saying riding willy nilly is not good and stick to the trail. This seems like a contradiction.

    Now understand the reason for this contradiction is due to presence of these things call "user trails". These are things that on the ground look like trails, but are not official. The problem is that if you are looking to "preserve nature" these non-official trails look like scars on the landscape and should not be there. Yes offical trails can be scars too, but being offical is a big difference.

    What I take this to mean is that the Mtn bike community is being penalized for CREATING a number of not official trails. Most mtn bikers don't create trails and will stick to them, but a few have gone created trails that never existed. The problem now is that many of these trails are around the FS fears that more trails will be created and this restruction is needed. I am not saying they are right, but it seem like their approach.

    My take is this. I have no issues with keeping bikes on designated trails. It is easy for bikes to stick to existing tracks and not cut new ones. I also think most here would stand by the last sentence. I think the issue is which trails are official and which ones are not.

    Maybe the solution to this issue is not to fight this ban, but to work to try to get more "social" trials accepted. Then we get to ride the trails legally and the FS gets to keep their hardline on new trail development. Plus when these trails get accepted it will make for a better experience due to mapping and signage. One thing I hate is maze of trails the go all over the place and go who knows where. Exploring is fine, but a lot of people like to have an idea where they are going and for how long.
    Not all of the user-built trails in Sedona were built by mtn bikers. What I have issue with is the mtn bike community is the only user-group being penalized.

  15. #15
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    Okay, so it's system trails only. How do we accelerate and/or widen the adoption process?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy_E View Post
    Okay, so it's system trails only. How do we accelerate and/or widen the adoption process?
    Hey E-i would start with the VVCC- The Verde Cyclist
    They are working with IMBA and the USFS to this point and seem to be the only MTB user group in the at area with some pull. The Flagstaff group is probably helping too.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstem View Post
    Hey E-i would start with the VVCC- The Verde Cyclist
    They are working with IMBA and the USFS to this point and seem to be the only MTB user group in the at area with some pull. The Flagstaff group is probably helping too.
    I concur !!!

    Or,

    Just go out and rip stuff up, make a new path, and thumb your nose in the face of authority ... It seems to have worked very well, thus far .
    /sarcasm

    Damn trail-blazers who advertise ... Any Questions ?

    And I used to think Democrats were the enemy

    Welcome to the society WE ALL LIVE IN ... I now await the National implementation of what Sedona has just experienced via the Red Rock District.

    Sign the Executive Order ... Confine the MTB to pavement !!!

    Sabotage from within seems to have worked

  18. #18
    slower than you
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Not all of the user-built trails in Sedona were built by mtn bikers. What I have issue with is the mtn bike community is the only user-group being penalized.
    i predict that we will one day all look back at this USFS decision and see it as the "the day the music died."

    and, for that, i will forever blame folks like traildoc. and, when it gets to FLG, the nightranger.
    "Let our people travel light and free on their bicycles." Ed Abbey
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  19. #19
    1 bike to ride them all
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    Bikeabusr, Cstem, Phillbo, and EasyE:

    Are you guys aware that "Categorical Exclusions" have been used to "adopt" the user created trails in Sedona?

    Do you know why that is hollow?

    A CE is the quickest way for the USFS to "adopt" a trail. Unfortunately, it has no protections whatsoever that guarantee continued mountain bike access to the trail that was adopted WHATSOEVER.

    Environmental and local anti mountain bike groups have up to 7 YEARS to legally contest a CE.

    So, again:

    THOSE PEOPLE/GROUPS WHO HAVE BEEN NEGOTIATING WITH THE USFS ON THE BEHALF OF MOUNTAIN BIKERS NEED TO STOP RUSHING TO MAKE CHANGE....

    YOUR BEST INTENTIONS TO SAVE OUR TRAILS/ACCESS IS HURTING US MORE THAN IT IS HELPING US.

    ADDITIONALLY YOU NEED TO REALIZE THAT PEOPLE LIKE ME WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

    STOP DICTATING/SPEAKING FOR OUR COMMUNITY AND START ENGAGING AND DIALOGING WITH US SO THAT YOU HAVE ACTUAL FEEDBACK AND SO THAT YOU CAN PROVE TO EVERYONE THAT A CONSENSUS HAS BEEN REACHED.

    YOUR CURRENT VIEWS DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF THE LOCAL OR LARGER MOUNTAIN BIKE COMMUNITY. IF YOU FEEL THAT I AM BEING INACCURATE OR UNFAIR PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG.

    NO MORE TOP-DOWN MOUNTAIN BIKE ADVOCACY IN SEDONA.

    CB

  20. #20
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    It's so terrible.
    Only 170 miles of open trails.
    Thank Yod I don't have real problems.
    - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  21. #21
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Yep, totally awesome being thrown back 15 years....
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconinocycles View Post
    It's so terrible.
    Only 170 miles of open trails.
    Thank Yod I don't have real problems.
    - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Read my mind. I know that we can never have enough trails, but now is as good a time as any to appreciate what you have and be optimistic that there may be more in the future.

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